# Do we "accept" Christ.....really???



## idsman75 (Dec 18, 2008)

I've been reading the threads hear and it's refreshing to see so many Christians on an outdoors website of all places discuss so many great topics.  

I have a question though.  I hear a lot of people talking about "accepting" Christ.  Do we really "accept" Christ?  Who are we that Christ should be found "acceptable" to us?  

According to Colossians 2:13-14
"When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having cancelled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

Before we were saved, we were dead.  There is no "mostly dead" or "a little bit dead" anymore than there is "a little bit pregnant".  You're either dead or you're alive.  If we were truly dead in our sins then is there anything within us at that point where we are capable of "accepting Christ"?  I don't see how that is possible.  If we are completely dead in our sins then there is nothing good about us that could possibly cause us to come to Christ on our own volition--even in response to a call from Him.  

I'm not trying to spur debate about election but seeing and hearing people talk about "accepting Christ" got me thinking after I read that scripture.


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## Jeffriesw (Dec 18, 2008)

I am not sure why that term is used exactly, But I think it is due to having us freewill to accept his gift of salvation or not.


By the way, Welcome to the spiritual forum. I hope yopu put on your full suit of armor, It can get a bit testy at times


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## Buckmoses (Dec 18, 2008)

Jesus really didn't care about us accepting himself, if we claimed to but failed to show mercy and compassion to the meek, the poor, the impoverished, then we failed to accept him..  It ain't a "me and Jesus"thing.  Never was, never will be.


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## idsman75 (Dec 18, 2008)

Swamp Runner--That's why I believe that it is God's grace that makes us alive before we are "called".  We have free will to reject the call or accept it but would not hear it or understand it if we were not spiritually resurrected by Grace first.

I have thick skin.  I can get rather zealous about what I believe but have learned to chill out.  Love for our brothers and sisters in Christ is far more important than getting heated over the nit picky things.  I saw that too much growing up in the Christian Reformed Church.


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## idsman75 (Dec 18, 2008)

Buckmoses said:


> Jesus really didn't care about us accepting himself, if we claimed to but failed to show mercy and compassion to the meek, the poor, the impoverished, then we failed to accept him..  It ain't a "me and Jesus"thing.  Never was, never will be.



AMEN brother!


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## gtparts (Dec 18, 2008)

Buckmoses said:


> Jesus really didn't care about us accepting himself, if we claimed to but failed to show mercy and compassion to the meek, the poor, the impoverished, then we failed to accept him..  It ain't a "me and Jesus"thing.  Never was, never will be.



Beg to differ on the caring issue. Jesus does care and we need to accept Him. But, that is only half the issue. We need to reject self. We need to deny the flesh which is corrupt. When this happens, Christ can truly live in and through us.


Galatians 2 
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 

If we say or do anything that truly resembles Christ, it is because it IS Christ saying and doing, not us. A Christian can never take credit for any good that issues out of his or her existence. It is all Jesus. Brag on Him!


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## crackerdave (Dec 18, 2008)

To me,the "accepting" is surrendering control of my life to Jesus.


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 18, 2008)

idsman75 said:


> I've been reading the threads hear and it's refreshing to see so many Christians on an outdoors website of all places discuss so many great topics.
> 
> I have a question though. I hear a lot of people talking about "accepting" Christ. Do we really "accept" Christ? Who are we that Christ should be found "acceptable" to us?
> 
> ...


 

It is called Total Depravity.

I don't believe we ever choose Christ. God chooses us, and Christ Saves us... John 6:44

I don't believe we have a choice in the matter either... The Holy Spirit is the one that convicts us of our Sinful selves... The Holy Spirit is PERFECT, and does all things PERFECTLY, so who better to know how to convict us unto Salvation than Him...

God chooses who He will have Mercy upon and who He will have wrath upon... God is Sovereign, and who better to choose then Him...

DB BB


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## Banjo (Dec 18, 2008)

hehehe....

Looks like another Calvinist is posting on Woody's.  One of these days, the Arminians are going to be outnumbered....We Calvinist's persevere...It is the "P" in TULIP .


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## gtparts (Dec 18, 2008)

Banjo said:


> hehehe....
> 
> Looks like another Calvinist is posting on Woody's.  One of these days, the Arminians are going to be outnumbered....We Calvinist's persevere...It is the "P" in TULIP .




If you are referring to idsman75, you might want to read post#4 carefully. Seems to be semi-Calvinistic tendencies or perhaps semi-unCalvinistic tendencies.


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## Jeffriesw (Dec 18, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> To me,the "accepting" is surrendering control of my life to Jesus.



That seems to be the hardest part for me, it is a daily thing for me. 
Although I can say the farther I get from my old life and ways,  it just gets better and better.


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## idsman75 (Dec 18, 2008)

Hah!  I thought that whole TULIP acronym was a secret held closely bu us Dutch folks from northwest Iowa.  Cool.

Just to get the Arminians worred a little more, the name of my grade school contained the name "Calvin".

BTW--I grew up absolutely STEEPED in TULIP.


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## Jeffriesw (Dec 18, 2008)

Alright now, One of ya'll will have to fill in a dumb cracker on what "tulip" is?


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## Mako22 (Dec 18, 2008)

TULIP is heresy spread by Calvinist. Calvinism has sent many a soul to the lake of fire, better turn and believe in Christ before it is too late!


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## Worley (Dec 18, 2008)

*Question*

Seems like John 1:12 would fit in to "accepting"to me...Whatcha think?  But in all sincerity isolated scripture is like a "prisoner of war" you hold it long enough and squeeze it hard enough and you can make it say whatever you want to.  Great question


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## crackerdave (Dec 18, 2008)

Good way of putting it,Worley! Little snippets of scripture are often mis-used.


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## farmasis (Dec 18, 2008)

Swamp Runner said:


> Alright now, One of ya'll will have to fill in a dumb cracker on what "tulip" is?


 Total depravity
<DL><DD>*T= **Total depravity*
</DD></DL>The doctrine of total depravity (also called "total inability") asserts that, as a consequence of the fall of humanity into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as possible.)
Jacob Arminius himself and some of his later followers, such as John Wesley, also affirmed total depravity.

*U= Unconditional election*

<DL><DD>_Main article: Unconditional election_
</DD></DL>The doctrine of unconditional election asserts that God's choice from eternity of those whom he will bring to himself is not based on foreseen virtue, merit, or faith in those people. Rather, it is unconditionally grounded in God's mercy alone.
The doctrine of unconditional election is sometimes made to stand for all Reformed doctrine, sometimes even by its adherents, as the chief article of Reformed Christianity. However, according to the doctrinal statements of these churches, it is not a balanced view to single out this doctrine to stand on its own as representative of all that is taught. Unconditional election, and its corollary in the doctrine of predestination are never properly taught, according to Calvinists, except as an assurance to those who seek forgiveness and salvation through Christ, that their faith is not in vain, because God is able to bring to completion all whom He intends to save. Nevertheless, non-Calvinists object that these doctrines discourage the world from seeking salvation.

*L= Limited atonement*

<DL><DD>_Main article: Limited atonement_
</DD></DL>Also called "particular redemption" or "definite atonement", the doctrine of limited atonement is the teaching that Jesus' substitutionary atonement was definite and certain in its design and accomplishment. The doctrine is driven by the concept of the sovereignty of God in salvation and the Calvinistic understanding of the nature of the atonement. Namely, Calvinists view the atonement as a penal substitution (that is, Jesus was punished in the place of sinners), and since, Calvinists argue, it would be unjust for God to pay the penalty for some people's sins and then still condemn them for those sins, all those whose sins were atoned for must necessarily be saved.
Moreover, since in this scheme God knows precisely who the elect are and since only the elect will be saved, there is no requirement that Christ atone for sins in general, only for those of the elect. Calvinists do not believe, however, that the atonement is limited in its value or power (in other words, God could have elected everyone and used it to atone for them all), but rather that the atonement is limited in the sense that it is designed for some and not all. Hence, Calvinists hold that the atonement is sufficient for all and efficient for the elect.

*I= Irresistible grace*

<DL><DD>_Main article: Irresistible grace_
</DD></DL>The doctrine of irresistible grace (also called "efficacious grace") asserts that the saving grace of God is effectually applied to those whom he has determined to save (that is, the elect) and, in God's timing, overcomes their resistance to obeying the call of the gospel, bringing them to a saving faith.
The doctrine does not hold that every influence of God's Holy Spirit cannot be resisted, but that the Holy Spirit is able to overcome all resistance and make his influence irresistible and effective. Thus, when God sovereignly purposes to save someone, that individual certainly will be saved.

*P= Perseverance of the saints*

<DL><DD>_Main article: Perseverance of the saints_
</DD></DL>Perseverance (or preservation) of the saints is also known as "eternal security." The word _saints_ is used in the Biblical sense to refer to all who are set apart by God, not in the technical sense of one who is exceptionally holy, canonized, or in heaven (see Saint). The doctrine asserts that, since God is sovereign and his will cannot be frustrated by humans or anything else, those whom God has called into communion with himself will continue in faith until the end. Those who apparently fall away either never had true faith to begin with or will return.
This doctrine is slightly different from the Free Grace or "once saved, always saved" view advocated by some evangelicals in which, despite apostasy or unrepentant and habitual sin, the individual is truly saved if they accepted Christ at any point in the past; in traditional Calvinist teaching, apostasy by such a person may prove that they were never saved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TULIP#Five_points_of_Calvinism


IMO, Total depravation is taken to the extreme by Calvinist. I believe we are prone to deprevation, but not totally depived to the extreme that hyper-calvinist proclaim.

Also, IMO, U, L and I are not part of God's plan for our salvation.

P is the only point I fully agree with.

I guess I am a 1 1/2 point Calvinist.


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## farmasis (Dec 18, 2008)

To the orginal question......

 14 "Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24)


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## Ronnie T (Dec 18, 2008)

farmasis said:


> To the orginal question......
> 
> 14 "Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24)




Well, you beat me to that scripture farmasis.
Admit it or not, if you are a Christian, you chose Christ.
I remember as a teen thinking about it for several weeks.  I wanted to step out into the aisle and confess Jesus as my Savior.  I don't know why it took me so long?  But it did.  I had to make a choice.


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## thedeacon (Dec 18, 2008)

It is left up to each person to accept Jesus. Behold I stand at the door knocking. Jesus is always at the door and It is up to us to open the door to our hearts and (accept) him by obeying him. Then and only then are we acceptable to God the father because the Blood of the savior is filtering out the sins in our lives as we are willing to confess and repent.


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## furtaker (Dec 18, 2008)

Banjo said:


> hehehe....
> 
> Looks like another Calvinist is posting on Woody's.  One of these days, the Arminians are going to be outnumbered....We Calvinist's persevere...It is the "P" in TULIP .



Actually, since they cannot accurately predict the future, a Calvinist has no idea if he will persevere or not.

According to their own theology, they may fall away in the end and prove they were never "really" saved.

So, it seems to me, Calvinists must be very unsure of their salvation.


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## PWalls (Dec 18, 2008)

I love a good debate on the Tulip principle. Of course, it won't go anywhere or yield much fruit as has been proven a few times on here already.

Although, the last one got me to admit that I might have some closet Calvinistic beliefs in me somewhere. Thanks a lot DBBB.

Hey, let's have another one.


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## Banjo (Dec 19, 2008)

Woodsman69 said:


> TULIP is heresy spread by Calvinist. Calvinism has sent many a soul to the lake of fire, better turn and believe in Christ before it is too late!




I thought you all believed the only thing that could send you to he77 was rejecting Jesus....

How would Calvinism promote that...We believe a mental assent is made, only AFTER the Holy Spirit regenerates a person.  You do have to BELIEVE.

I would be willing to bet that more people end up in he77 thinking that they are Christians because someone told them they were....due to something THEY did.

Well, Billy Bob, I know you are living with your girlfriend, drinking to excess every day, and blaspheming God's name, but remember when you walked that aisle as a boy and shook the preacher's hand; I believe you even said the sinner's prayer and asked Jesus into your heart.

Therefore, you are saved.


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## Banjo (Dec 19, 2008)

brentus said:


> Actually, since they cannot accurately predict the future, a Calvinist has no idea if he will persevere or not.
> 
> According to their own theology, they may fall away in the end and prove they were never "really" saved.
> 
> So, it seems to me, Calvinists must be very unsure of their salvation.



How about those who think they made a decision to be a Christian...What if they decide not to be a Christian anymore?  Salvation is left up to man???

Those who are saved WILL persevere to the end.  We understand that God is the AUTHOR (it originated with HIM) and the FINISHER of our faith.  

The Bible does exhort us to examine ourselves daily to see if we are in the faith...Calvinists and Arminians both...


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## Banjo (Dec 19, 2008)

habersham hammer said:


> what he
> said!!!



HABERSHAM HAMMER.....

I hope you realize that Stonewall Jackson (the man in your avatar) was a DEVOUT, Presbyterian CALVINIST....

He was a Godly man, and one of my heroes.  He believed in God's sovereignty over all things....even salvation.

"Captain, my religious belief teaches me to feel as safe in battle as in bed. God has fixed the time for my death. I do not concern myself about that, but to be always ready, no matter when it may overtake me." He added, after a pause, looking me full in the face: "That is the way all men should live, and then all would be equally brave."   Stonewall Jackson


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2008)

Swamp Runner said:


> Alright now, One of ya'll will have to fill in a dumb cracker on what "tulip" is?


 

Swamp,

Here are some good articles on TULIP if you are interested:

Tiptoeing through the TULIPs - Part 1: Total Depravity

Tiptoeing through the TULIPs - Part 2: Unconditional Election

Tiptoeing through the TULIPs - Part 3: Limited Atonement

Tiptoeing through the TULIPs - Part 4: Irresistible Grace

Tiptoeing through the TULIPs - Part 5: Perseverance of the Saints

I hope these help you in your understanding of TULIP...

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2008)

farmasis said:


> IMO, Total depravation is taken to the extreme by Calvinist. I believe we are prone to deprevation, but not totally depived to the extreme that hyper-calvinist proclaim.


 
It is not hyper-calvinism The word "Total" means completely...

Everyone is "Dead in Sin" until God gives them to Christ, John 6:44... A dead man/woman can not do anything, they can't walk, talk, pick there nose, scratch their head, etc.. they are just "Dead" completely motionless and thoughtless... How much more proof does anyone need that a "Dead" man can do nothing?

DB BB


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## farmasis (Dec 19, 2008)

Banjo said:


> I thought you all believed the only thing that could send you to he77 was rejecting Jesus....
> 
> How would Calvinism promote that...We believe a mental assent is made, only AFTER the Holy Spirit regenerates a person. You do have to BELIEVE.
> 
> ...


 
I do not think Calvinist are headed anywhere other than to Christ if they have believed in their heart Jesus died for them and have confessed with their mouth that Jesus is their Lord.

The only difference is how we got to where we are as Christians, not that one group is truly saved and the other is not.


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2008)

farmasis said:


> To the orginal question......
> 
> 14 "Now fear the LORD and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the River and in Egypt, and serve the LORD. 15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24)


 
What about Romans 9:10-24?

10.And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 
11.(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12.It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 
13.As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated .
14.What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15.For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion .
16.So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy .
17.For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 
18.Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth .
19.Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 
20.Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 
21.Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to  make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 
22.What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 
23.And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 
24.Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


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## farmasis (Dec 19, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> It is not hyper-calvinism The word "Total" means completely...
> 
> Everyone is "Dead in Sin" until God gives them to Christ, John 6:44... A dead man/woman can not do anything, they can't walk, talk, pick there nose, scratch their head, etc.. they are just "Dead" completely motionless and thoughtless... How much more proof does anyone need that a "Dead" man can do nothing?
> 
> DB BB


 
BB, so you are saying that every body I see picking their nose has accepted Christ?

No, they are dead in sin, not dead----yet. They cannot do anything on their own to erase that. We are prone to sin because of our flesh. But, we are not so sinful that we cannot choose God. On our own, we tend to serve our own flesh. And without the calling of God through the Holy Spirit, we would most probably continue to do so.


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## farmasis (Dec 19, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> What about Romans 9:10-24?
> 
> 10.And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
> 11.(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
> ...


 
Limited free will of man.
God has the right to revoke at any time.
Calvinist take 1 or 2 verses and apply it to God's plan of salvation. They override mountains of scripture to satisfy their view.
Dangerous way to study the word of God, IMO.


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## farmasis (Dec 19, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Swamp,
> 
> Here are some good articles on TULIP if you are interested:
> 
> ...


 
And the opposing view, if you are so inclined.

http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism.htm

http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism_depravity.htm

http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism_election.htm

http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism_atonement.htm

http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism_grace.htm

http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism_perseverance.htm


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2008)

farmasis said:


> BB, so you are saying that every body I see picking their nose has accepted Christ?


 
It was meant as a Joke, to make people smile... but no not everyone you see picking their nose has Salvation.



farmasis said:


> No, they are dead in sin, not dead----yet. They cannot do anything on their own to erase that. We are prone to sin because of our flesh. But, we are not so sinful that we cannot choose God. On our own, we tend to serve our own flesh. And without the calling of God through the Holy Spirit, we would most probably continue to do so.


 
"total depravity does not mean that men cannot make choices.  It says that their choices will only be consistent with the nature of fallen man which, we have seen from God's word, is fallen, a slave of sin, full of evil, is incapable of understanding spiritual things, and does not seek for God."

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Limited free will of man.
> God has the right to revoke at any time.
> Calvinist take 1 or 2 verses and apply it to God's plan of salvation. They override mountains of scripture to satisfy their view.
> Dangerous way to study the word of God, IMO.


 
I thought it was just Free-will... now it is Limited free-will?

Farmasis... come on now you know there is enough scripture to support both of our views... I believe you have said so yourself... I could be wrong, it might have been gtparts that had said that...

IMO, the most dangerous way to study the word of God is to think that you have the power of the God in Salvation...

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2008)

farmasis said:


> And the opposing view, if you are so inclined.
> 
> http://www.biblelife.org/calvinism.htm
> 
> ...


 

I have already studies the other side of the arguement... Thanks for the links, I might go for a refresher, to reaffirm my belief though...

DB BB


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## farmasis (Dec 19, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I thought it was just Free-will... now it is Limited free-will?
> 
> Farmasis... come on now you know there is enough scripture to support both of our views... I believe you have said so yourself... I could be wrong, it might have been gtparts that had said that...
> 
> ...


 
I believe in limited free will. We know we do not have total free will in anything, especially accepting Christ. He must draw us.

Yes, there is scriptural support for every point of Calvinism. Like I said, I do not think that is God's plan of salvation for man. There are examples like Esau that makes some say that shows unconditional election, but mountains of scripture that says to choose God.

There is also a story of a big fish swallowing a man who decided to not do what God told him to do. Should we take from that that if we do not do what God says that he will send a fish to swallow us? He very well could, but that is how he chose to work that out for Jonah. Jonah thought he had free will to walk away, he discovered it to be limited, and God revoked it.


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## farmasis (Dec 19, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> I have already studies the other side of the arguement... Thanks for the links, I might go for a refresher, to reaffirm my belief though...
> 
> DB BB


 
I meant that for Swamp Runner, sorry for the confusion.


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2008)

PWalls said:


> I love a good debate on the Tulip principle. Of course, it won't go anywhere or yield much fruit as has been proven a few times on here already.
> 
> Although, the last one got me to admit that I might have some closet Calvinistic beliefs in me somewhere. Thanks a lot DBBB.
> 
> Hey, let's have another one.


 

Your welcome, but I would say that God gave me the words to type to show you that you have some Calvinistic beliefs...

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2008)

farmasis said:


> I believe in limited free will. We know we do not have total free will in anything, especially accepting Christ. He must draw us.


 
Interesting... I thought you were a Free-Free-willer...



farmasis said:


> Yes, there is scriptural support for every point of Calvinism. Like I said, I do not think that is God's plan of salvation for man. There are examples like Esau that makes some say that shows unconditional election, but mountains of scripture that says to choose God.
> 
> There is also a story of a big fish swallowing a man who decided to not do what God told him to do. Should we take from that that if we do not do what God says that he will send a fish to swallow us? He very well could, but that is how he chose to work that out for Jonah. Jonah thought he had free will to walk away, he discovered it to be limited, and God revoked it.


 
If you have a choice than it is free-will, nothing partial or limited about it... Since you believe in limited free-will... Do you think that God has revoked it on anyone else, besides those mentioned in the Bible?

DB BB


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## crackerdave (Dec 19, 2008)

farmasis said:


> I believe in limited free will. We know we do not have total free will in anything, especially accepting Christ. He must draw us.
> 
> Yes, there is scriptural support for every point of Calvinism. Like I said, I do not think that is God's plan of salvation for man. There are examples like Esau that makes some say that shows unconditional election, but mountains of scripture that says to choose God.
> 
> There is also a story of a big fish swallowing a man who decided to not do what God told him to do. Should we take from that that if we do not do what God says that he will send a fish to swallow us? He very well could, but that is how he chose to work that out for Jonah. Jonah thought he had free will to walk away, he discovered it to be limited, and God revoked it.



AMEN!!! God let ol' Jonah stew in the innards of that fish for a while to give him a little time to think about it,then the fish spit him on the beach and God said "Now get to WORK!"

Sorry for the but in the words of many chillun: "Everybody ELSE is doing it!"


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## farmasis (Dec 19, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Interesting... I thought you were a Free-Free-willer...


 
I believe in free willy....










> If you have a choice than it is free-will, nothing partial or limited about it... Since you believe in limited free-will... Do you think that God has revoked it on anyone else, besides those mentioned in the Bible?
> 
> DB BB


 
Oh, I am sure that he has. If he has a specific task for someone to do, it will be done.


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## Huntinfool (Dec 19, 2008)

Howdy folks!  You're friendly neighborhood Weslyian Armenian here!

OK...I'll bite.  Christ offers is the free gift of salvation.  It is our decision whether to accept or reject that gift.  he will not force us to accept.

Fire away!


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## mossyears (Dec 19, 2008)

Good discussion...may i suggest "The Doctrins of Grace" by James Montgomery Boyce...helped me "understand" (as best our human minds can) the way God ordained His sovereignty and our free will at the same time.


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## Huntinfool (Dec 19, 2008)

farmasis said:


> There is also a story of a big fish swallowing a man who decided to not do what God told him to do. Should we take from that that if we do not do what God says that he will send a fish to swallow us? He very well could, but that is how he chose to work that out for Jonah. Jonah thought he had free will to walk away, he discovered it to be limited, and God revoked it.



He could have walked even after that.  I actually had a similar personal experience (no I wasn't swallowed by a fish).  But God wanted my attention and was willing to do anything he had to...including ruining everything I held dear....to do it.

But I know very clearly at that moment, I had a choice to make.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Oh, I am sure that he has. If he has a specific task for someone to do, it will be done.


 
How about unto Salvation?

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> He could have walked even after that. I actually had a similar personal experience (no I wasn't swallowed by a fish). But God wanted my attention and was willing to do anything he had to...including ruining everything I held dear....to do it.
> 
> But I know very clearly at that moment, I had a choice to make.


 

Did you really have a choice? I don't mean to question what you think was a choice but, you said God was ruining everything that you held dear... Did you really have a choice then?

What do you think would have happened if you had "Chosen" to not be saved?

Again, HF, I am not meaning to sound mean or make you question how you were saved... To me when you describe it, it sounds like you didn't have a choice...

DB BB


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## farmasis (Dec 19, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> How about unto Salvation?
> 
> DB BB


 
Not really sure, but very possible.

The point is unconditional election is demonstrated in scripture as a tool God has used in some cases.

Conditional election is the plan of salvation the NT describes.

Now if both are possible, while is the rule and which is the exception?

I say unconditional election is the exception, and conditional election the rule.


----------



## farmasis (Dec 19, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Did you really have a choice? I don't mean to question what you think was a choice but, you said God was ruining everything that you held dear... Did you really have a choice then?
> 
> What do you think would have happened if you had "Chosen" to not be saved?
> 
> ...


 
Did Job have a choice? Could he have cussed the name of the Lord and died as his wife suggested?
I say so.

Are we to think that everyone who died lost did not get a call from the Lord?


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Not really sure, but very possible.
> 
> The point is unconditional election is demonstrated in scripture as a tool God has used in some cases.
> 
> ...


 
So tell me, what is your version of Conditional Election, what Conditions do you put on it?

DB BB

edited to add... that is a nice site you linked to... looks like it has to resort to name calling  and saying that Calvinist are mentally ill to try and prove their point:

"Calvinists are Schizophrenic Double-Double False Teachers"

"all Calvinists have a mental illness. John Calvin obviously did"

I was just skimming the text and it looks like a lot of "hate" supposedly disguised as Love...and that was just from skimming the text... but that is just my opinion of the text...

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Did Job have a choice? Could he have cussed the name of the Lord and died as his wife suggested?
> I say so.
> 
> Are we to think that everyone who died lost did not get a call from the Lord?


 
God is omniscient, He knew Job would never cuss the Lord's name...

God knows when everyone is going to die, there is an appointed time for it... do you think your choices can alter that time frame?

If you believe they were Lost, then they probably didn't get a call from the Lord... But only that Person would know if they ever recieved a Call from the Lord, and if they did, then it would be a PERFECT call, and the Holy Spirit would only do things PERFECTLY...

DB BB


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## Huntinfool (Dec 19, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Did you really have a choice? I don't mean to question what you think was a choice but, you said God was ruining everything that you held dear... Did you really have a choice then?
> 
> What do you think would have happened if you had "Chosen" to not be saved?
> 
> ...



Have you never seen someone who KNEW what the right thing to do was....who KNEW what choice they should make....but then went defiantly the other direction?

There was a choice.  It was not my moment of salvation.  But I walked defiantly away for many years....and then he came after me.  He'd had enough.

Oh, I had a choice DBBB.  Believe that.  But he made it very clear that day that I was not going to be coddled any more and that he was not going to sit back quietly anymore. 

I had a choice that day bud.  But it was a "line in the sand" kind of moment.  Either I broke or I walked away and dealt with what was coming.

But I had a choice to make.


----------



## Huntinfool (Dec 19, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> God is omniscient, He knew Job would never cuss the Lord's name...



All Knowing and All Causing are not the same.  That's the problem with the "God is omniscient" line that people like to use.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Have you never seen someone who KNEW what the right thing to do was....who KNEW what choice they should make....but then went defiantly the other direction?


 
Yes I have, but we are talking about a sinful unsaved person at this point right? The state of Fallen man dictates that we will never search for God, and we will do everything that is contray to God, nothing good at all in the eyes of the Lord.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Romans 3: 10-12
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.



Huntinfool said:


> There was a choice. It was not my moment of salvation. But I walked defiantly away for many years....and then he came after me. He'd had enough.
> 
> Oh, I had a choice DBBB. Believe that. But he made it very clear that day that I was not going to be coddled any more and that he was not going to sit back quietly anymore.
> 
> ...


 
I see you had a Choice when it came to doing what God has told you to do, to do the will of God... Because I know when I am not doing the will of God, He puts me back in line, sometimes it is with a nudge, and sometimes it is with a good butt kicking... I believe this happens to all that are Saved.

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> All Knowing and All Causing are not the same. That's the problem with the "God is omniscient" line that people like to use.


 

Didn't say God Caused anything... God allowed the Devil to do anything to Job besides kill him... God knew that Job would never submit to the Devil...

DB BB


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## Banjo (Dec 19, 2008)

When one has truly encountered the Lord's Spirit....is he/she able to reject Him?


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## Huntinfool (Dec 19, 2008)

Well....I would say yes.


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Well....I would say yes.


 

Well....I would say no.

DB BB

Edited to add: Because to me that is having power over God.... Just my belief... don't mean to hurt anyones feelings...


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## gtparts (Dec 19, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> God knows when everyone is going to die, there is an appointed time for it... do you think your choices can alter that time frame?
> 
> DB BB



Exodus20

12 Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long in the land which Jehovah thy God giveth thee. 

The obvious indication is that obedience to God regarding our attitude and behavior towards our parents certainly can influence God to extend our lives.... or to cut it short.


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Exodus20
> 
> 12 Honor thy father and thy mother, that thy days may be long in the land which Jehovah thy God giveth thee.
> 
> The obvious indication is that obedience to God regarding our attitude and behavior towards our parents certainly can influence God to extend our lives.... or to cut it short.


 

So you are saying God doesn't know everything? Based upon the actions of you toward your parents you would control the longevity of your life?

DB BB


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## rjcruiser (Dec 19, 2008)

Woodsman69 said:


> TULIP is heresy spread by Calvinist. Calvinism has sent many a soul to the lake of fire, better turn and believe in Christ before it is too late!





habersham hammer said:


> what he said!!!





brentus said:


> Actually, since they cannot accurately predict the future, a Calvinist has no idea if he will persevere or not.
> 
> According to their own theology, they may fall away in the end and prove they were never "really" saved.
> 
> So, it seems to me, Calvinists must be very unsure of their salvation.




I just opened this thread  and all I can do is


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## Huntinfool (Dec 19, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Well....I would say no.
> 
> DB BB
> 
> Edited to add: Because to me that is having power over God.... Just my belief... don't mean to hurt anyones feelings...



Not having power over God.  Being given a choice.  It's not that we take the power from him.  It's that he allows us to choose him.


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## Huntinfool (Dec 19, 2008)

rj...you better hurry and come to my church!  We'll do some drama and play the drums.  You'll be saved in no time!

....ah those crazy calvanists.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 19, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> rj...you better hurry and come to my church!  We'll do some drama and play the drums.  You'll be saved in no time!
> 
> ....ah those crazy calvanists.



well...according to Brentus...I'm not that sure of my salvation.  Good thing I walk the aisle every sunday and get re-saved everytime I go to confession.  Boy...if it wasn't for that, I don't know how I'd make it through the week.


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## Huntinfool (Dec 19, 2008)

That's why you should come with us.  Clearly you're not saved. 

We're sensitive to your seeking....come on in!


----------



## gtparts (Dec 19, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> So you are saying God doesn't know everything? Based upon the actions of you toward your parents you would control the longevity of your life?
> 
> DB BB


Come on, DB BB, show me where I said that! Why do you and some others try to twist others words and restate them to serve your purpose.  Of course God knows everything, He knows it because of His foreknowledge. BUT, that does not mean that He causes it to happen. Just because I know that if Jesus tarries, you will die doesn't mean that my having that knowledge is the cause of your future demise. 

The passage is one of the Ten Commandments and the first with a promise from God. If God made that promise, are you saying God might not keep that promise? I am absolutely certain that God keeps His Word. All of us have the choice to obey and receive a specific blessing or disobey and not receive that blessing.

So, is God not to be trusted?

Let's quit twisting and just admit that God does not cause everything to happen. Some things he has set into motion and somethings the prince of the air has placed things in motion with God's permission. God did not cause any of the calamities that befell Job, but He sure stood by and allowed it to happen to make a point. A sovereign God can do that, you know.


----------



## gtparts (Dec 19, 2008)

> Originally Posted by Huntinfool  View Post
> Have you never seen someone who KNEW what the right thing to do was....who KNEW what choice they should make....but then went defiantly the other direction?





Double Barrel BB said:


> Yes I have, but we are talking about a sinful unsaved person at this point right? The state of Fallen man dictates that we will never search for God, and we will do everything that is contrary to God, nothing good at all in the eyes of the Lord.
> 
> DB BB



DB BB, If, as HF stated, the individual in question knew what was right and still did not choose to do right, then he could not be totally depraved, for he had some sense of what God's will was, whether he did it or not..

 If at some point he is faced with a similar choice and he chooses to do right this time, is he under conviction or does he just recognize that it is more beneficial for him to go with the right choice rather than the wrong one?


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Come on, DB BB, show me where I said that! Why do you and some others try to twist others words and restate them to serve your purpose. Of course God knows everything, He knows it because of His foreknowledge. BUT, that does not mean that He causes it to happen. Just because I know that if Jesus tarries, you will die doesn't mean that my having that knowledge is the cause of your future demise.


 
Didn't say He causes it to happen... I did not twist your words I just interperted them by what you posted... You said that if you were to honor your parents God would lengthen the days of your life right? Tell me where that is twisting your words? Sorry if I offended you, didn't mean to...



gtparts said:


> The passage is one of the Ten Commandments and the first with a promise from God. If God made that promise, are you saying God might not keep that promise? I am absolutely certain that God keeps His Word. All of us have the choice to obey and receive a specific blessing or disobey and not receive that blessing.


 
No, God will keep His promise, but He also knows if you will honor your parents...

So at what degree do you have to obey in order to get blessing from God?



gtparts said:


> So, is God not to be trusted?


 
Yes, you can trust God.



gtparts said:


> Let's quit twisting and just admit that God does not cause everything to happen. Some things he has set into motion and somethings the prince of the air has placed things in motion with God's permission. God did not cause any of the calamities that befell Job, but He sure stood by and allowed it to happen to make a point. A sovereign God can do that, you know.


 
I believe I said something very similar in a post not to long ago...

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2008)

gtparts said:


> DB BB, If, as HF stated, the individual in question knew what was right and still did not choose to do right, then he could not be totally depraved, for he had some sense of what God's will was, whether he did it or not..
> 
> If at some point he is faced with a similar choice and he chooses to do right this time, is he under conviction or does he just recognize that it is more beneficial for him to go with the right choice rather than the wrong one?


 
What is right in man's eyes doesn't matter to God. To my eyes I see people do the right and wrong things a lot, but that is through my eyes...

Romans 3: 10-12
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 19, 2008)

But hey, what do I know....

According to a website that is referenced in this thread...

"all Calvinists have a mental illness"

DB BB


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## gtparts (Dec 19, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Didn't say He causes it to happen... I did not twist your words I just interperted them by what you posted...
> 
> DB BB



You mean "misinterpreted".


----------



## gtparts (Dec 19, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> What is right in man's eyes doesn't matter to God. To my eyes I see people do the right and wrong things a lot, but that is through my eyes...
> 
> Romans 3: 10-12
> 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
> ...




Luke 10 : 33-37

33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he was moved with compassion, 
34 and came to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring on [them] oil and wine; and he set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 
35 And on the morrow he took out two shillings, and gave them to the host, and said, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, I, when I come back again, will repay thee. 
36 Which of these three, thinkest thou, proved neighbor unto him that fell among the robbers? 
37 And he said, He that showed mercy on him. And Jesus said unto him, Go, and do thou likewise. 

Micah 6 : 8

8 He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth Jehovah require of thee, but to do justly, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with thy God?

The prophet Micah tells us what God says is good.

The Samaritan does what is just and kind...that which God says is good.

Now, the question arises, would Jesus have used this true account to illustrate right behavior from His perspective if it were not so. 

Then what we have here is an unrighteous man (as a human, he was certainly imperfect) performing a righteous act, an incredible kindness to a Jew of all people.

I can not see that this Samaritan was totally depraved, so far removed from God that he had no sense of right and wrong. Jesus commends the actions and identifies him as a neighbor.

What was the motivation of the Samaritan? I can only see a man who must have had a desire to know God and had enough understanding of Him to act justly and kindly, otherwise, why bother?

The Romans 3: 10-12 is about the issue of perfection and while true, it is not relevant to this discussion except to confirm every ones need of God's grace. We are discussing an imperfect man's behavior that is either consistent with God's will or is not.


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## farmasis (Dec 19, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> So tell me, what is your version of Conditional Election, what Conditions do you put on it?
> 
> DB BB


 
Me? Don't give me any credit for what God did.

He says believe in him and you will never die. (John 11:26) He says, through Paul, confess with your mouth He is Lord and believe that He was raised from the dead you will be saved (Romans 10:9)



> edited to add... that is a nice site you linked to... looks like it has to resort to name calling and saying that Calvinist are mentally ill to try and prove their point:
> 
> "Calvinists are Schizophrenic Double-Double False Teachers"
> 
> ...


 
You feel that way because you have mental issues.


----------



## farmasis (Dec 19, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> God is omniscient, He knew Job would never cuss the Lord's name...
> 
> God knows when everyone is going to die, there is an appointed time for it... do you think your choices can alter that time frame?
> 
> ...


 
Do you think Jesus knows if a people has been called and rejected that calling?

37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under _her_ wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, _‘Blessed_ _is_ _He who comes in the name of the LORD!’_ (Matt 23)


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## farmasis (Dec 19, 2008)

Banjo said:


> When one has truly encountered the Lord's Spirit....is he/she able to reject Him?


 
Most definately. See Lucifer, Adam, Eve, Etc.


----------



## farmasis (Dec 20, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> What is right in man's eyes doesn't matter to God. To my eyes I see people do the right and wrong things a lot, but that is through my eyes...
> 
> Romans 3: 10-12
> 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
> ...


 
We are sinners. We will continue to sin unless touched by God. But, are we depraved to the point that we cannot accept him and that he must make that decision for us?

12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God (John 1:12)

7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature<SUP>[a]</SUP>will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. (Gal 6)

We might be incapable of finding God, but are we depraved to the point that we will not seek Him?

33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. (Matt 6:33)

23Someone asked him, "Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?" 
   He said to them, 24"Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. 25Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, 'Sir, open the door for us.' 
      "But he will answer, 'I don't know you or where you come from.' (Luke 13)

 6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; 
       call on him while he is near. (Is. 55)


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## Big7 (Dec 20, 2008)

Buckmoses said:


> Jesus really didn't care about us accepting himself, if we claimed to but failed to show mercy and compassion to the meek, the poor, the impoverished, then we failed to accept him..  It ain't a "me and Jesus"thing.  Never was, never will be.



That is a very good analogy of salvation through faith plus works. BOTH are necessary.
Jesus didn't need faith. He was faith.
EVERYTHING ELSE HE DID WAS  "WORKS"

Even on the cross he was "working" for us,
so that we would have our means of salvation.


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## Big7 (Dec 20, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> To me,the "accepting" is surrendering control of my life to Jesus.



Brother "cracker" that is works too...
ALL GOOD!

BTW - "Brother Cracker"? You could be a rapper. 
If you go to rappin' I want to be your agent.

We already got an "Uncle Cracker" - He does well
I'm told. He did a few duets with Kenny Chesney
and his songs are rated PG.

 Rest of yall, seriously, back up to my post above.


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## Israel (Dec 21, 2008)

Big7 said:


> That is a very good analogy of salvation through faith plus works. BOTH are necessary.
> Jesus didn't need faith. He was faith.
> EVERYTHING ELSE HE DID WAS  "WORKS"
> 
> ...



Not to be contentious, but Jesus, by whose faith we are saved, walked by faith. And as surely as he walked by it, he was tempted away from it, but never gave in.
It is a wonder of the Lord's grace to be made vulnerable to temptation for the sake of our salvation.


----------



## idsman75 (Dec 22, 2008)

What's all this talk about being Calvinists?  I'm not a flippin' "Calvinist".  John Calvin contributed to Reformed Christian theology as did a whole lot of other people.  Insert the name of your pastor into the word "Calvin-ist".  Does that make you NOT a follower of Christ because you listen to your preacher's preaching?  Puuuhhhlleeeeees.  John Calvin's contributions to Reformed Christian doctrine hasn't sent ANYONE to H-E-Double Hockey Sticks.


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## idsman75 (Dec 22, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Most definately. See Lucifer, Adam, Eve, Etc.



Lucifer was an angel--not made in the image and likeness of God.  How do we know Adam & Eve did not go to heaven?  We don't.  They sinned just like you and me.  It doesn't mean they weren't saved.  

Sin does not equate to a rejection of the Holy Spirit.  It's sin.  We've all done it but it doesn't mean we've rejected God.


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## idsman75 (Dec 22, 2008)

Big7 said:


> That is a very good analogy of salvation through faith plus works. BOTH are necessary.
> Jesus didn't need faith. He was faith.
> EVERYTHING ELSE HE DID WAS  "WORKS"
> 
> ...



Oooooo....we're touching on a HUGE controversy among Reformed circles here.  Anyone heard of Reverend Shepherdism?


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## Huntinfool (Dec 22, 2008)

idsman75 said:


> Sin does not equate to a rejection of the Holy Spirit.  It's sin.  We've all done it but it doesn't mean we've rejected God.



Uh....actually....that's exactly what it means.


----------



## crackerdave (Dec 22, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Uh....actually....that's exactly what it means.



So - you're saying when you sin [assuming you do] that you have rejected God? Do you go get "re-saved" after each nasty thought or armed robbery or whatever?


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## Huntinfool (Dec 22, 2008)

No, of course not.  But you clearly reject what God would have you do every time you sin.  There is no way around that bro.

A complete and comprehensive rejection?  Nope.  But a rejection nonetheless.  

Ever heard a prayer that goes something like this?  "...forgive us our debts..."

We reject...we repent.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> OK...I'll bite.  Christ offers is the free gift of salvation.  It is our decision whether to accept or reject that gift.  he will not force us to accept.



Baptist here and I agree.

I believe of course that God knows whether or not we will accept the gift...but it's our choice.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2008)

Matthew 18:13-15 (King James Version)

 13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 

 14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 

According to this, God's will would be for all to be saved, our free will is the only thing that changes that. So ultimately it is up to us. IMHO


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2008)

Mark 3:28-30 (King James Version)

 28Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: 

 29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal ****ation. 

 That's the only sin that I know of that we cannot be forgiven for. I think that would be pretty hard to do...even if we were mad and cursed God, the Holy Ghost can search our hearts for the truth.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 22, 2008)

Sin, when commited by a child of God is a willful act of unholyness.  It is an act commited against the will of God by His child who already knows that God sees all and knows all.  So, it is a blatant disregard for God's love for me and God's goodness to me.

I cannot take sin lightly.  Sin cannot dwell in the presents of God.
When Jesus said:  "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments"  He meant it.

Sin is an insult to the very nature of the One who has allowed us to be His children.
Sin should never be 'expected' in my and your life.  Sin says, 'I know what You want and expect from me Lord, but I'm not doing it this time'.

Will I sin again in my life?  Most probably.  But it should grieve my soul when it happens.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 22, 2008)

Each and every sin in the life of a Christian requires renewed self-examination and a commitment to leave that sin and it's nature behind us.  With sin, I must admit that I, for just a moment, turned my attention to Satan and his desires rather than God's desires.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> Sin should never be 'expected' in my and your life.



God expected us to sin again, that's why He gave us Jesus.

Not that we should sin, or it's ok to sin. I'm usually instantly convicted when I mess up and say right at that moment, forgive me Father....and try as hard as I can to not do it again, but still I sin....that's why I need a saviour.  I would be completely hopeless and give up if I thought I had to never sin again...because I'd know it couldn't be done.

I'm sure that's why a lot of people don't become Christians because they believe they just couldn't be good enough for God and all His rules....I know..I used to feel that way, so I just didn't even try. A lot of teaching about the blood and the Holy Spirit changed my mind. Especially the book by Billy Graham, Holy Spirit.

We don't need salvation and forgiveness just sometimes, we need continuous salvation and forgiveness, not just a spot check now and them. I'm constantly under the blood and constantly asking for forgiveness.

But that's just me.


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## farmasis (Dec 22, 2008)

idsman75 said:


> Lucifer was an angel--not made in the image and likeness of God. How do we know Adam & Eve did not go to heaven? We don't. They sinned just like you and me. It doesn't mean they weren't saved.
> 
> Sin does not equate to a rejection of the Holy Spirit. It's sin. We've all done it but it doesn't mean we've rejected God.


 
I don't think Adam and Eve were sealed with the Holy Spirit, as we are. Just like the bulk of the nation of Israel rejected God, so can someone now. But once saved.....always saved.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 22, 2008)

farmasis said:


> I don't think Adam and Eve were sealed with the Holy Spirit, as we are. Just like the bulk of the nation of Israel rejected God, so can someone now. But once saved.....always saved.




I got to hand it to you farmasis, you are certainly committed to your belief that if a person has been saved by the blood of Jesus, God will personally prevent them from ever turning back to the world, no matter what.
Don't you think it would be best that you be teaching people to be disciples of Jesus rather than convincing them they can never be lost no matter what??
That's what your message is teaching.
Don't you recognize that?


----------



## farmasis (Dec 22, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> I got to hand it to you farmasis, you are certainly committed to your belief that if a person has been saved by the blood of Jesus, God will personally prevent them from ever turning back to the world, no matter what.
> Don't you think it would be best that you be teaching people to be disciples of Jesus rather than convincing them they can never be lost no matter what??
> That's what your message is teaching.
> Don't you recognize that?


 
Sorry if you disagree.

Can God keep us saved?

You bet....
24To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy (Jude 1:24)

My message is that if you have been saved by God, you are sealed until redemption. It is not a license to sin or live the way you want. It is freedom from bondage. 
35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. (John 8)

Can you return to the world? Sure. But, if you do not feel God's chastisement and calling you back, you should wonder of your salvation in the first place.

19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. (1 John 2:19)


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## Ronnie T (Dec 22, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Sorry if you disagree.
> 
> Can God keep us saved?
> 
> ...




Here's two sites that have been established to provide scripture that relate to both sides of the issue.
Unbiased research on their part.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sava2.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sava3.htm

Hope they work.


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## idsman75 (Dec 22, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> Uh....actually....that's exactly what it means.




I guess we interpret the word "rejection" quite a bit differently.  When I see the words "rejection of the Holy Spirit", thoughts of the "Unforgivable Sin" are conjured up in my mind.  A child may disobey his parents but that child does not reject or love his parents any less.  If I stub my toe and utter a profanity, I didn't "reject the Holy Spirit".  

Before I was sealed with the Holy Spirit, every sin was a symbol of my rejection of God.  After being sealed by the Holy Spirit, it is like a dog returning to its vomit.  Sin revolts the Christian but the Christian still sins.  However, each individual sin is no longer symbolic of a spirit of rejection of God.  If each sin WERE a rejection of God then the sin itself would not be revolting to the Christian.  The very reason sin revolts the Christian (even though he commits it after being sealed by the Spirit), is that the Christian has ceased to reject God.  That sin is no longer in congruence with the new and permanent relationship with God and the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2008)

I've told this before....I'll use myself as an example of why I believe once saved always saved.

I was saved and baptized at the age of 12, I was on fire for Jesus and had been ever since I could remember. I wanted to be a missionary with Lottie Moon with all my heart.
Until....my husband got killed in VN and I lost my mind. I was 23, had never drank or been to a club or bar or anything. Needless to say I was very angry with God. I met a musician who proceeded to lead me down into darkness and I didn't see light of day until I was 46.

I still believed Jesus was the Son of God, I didn't think nor care if I died would I go to hedoublehockysticks, I was just in denial I guess.
Anyway years go by....I get divorced and still stayed on the road to hedoubletoothpicks, or at least I felt like I was already in emotional torment.

One morning, I woke up and said Dear Lord please help me I'm going under. It wasn't even one of those mornings where I had way too much to drink or anything.

I had been layed off from bellsouth after 20 yrs and was contracting out the work myself. I was ask to go to a pay station that was in a drug store and work for a week. I worked out of one little corner in the front taking phone payments. I was bored absolutely to death. Under the handmade counter was one book, just one...it was the Holy Spirit by Billy Graham. That book changed my life....thank ya Lord.
Either the same day or a few days later a local black pastor that I'd known for years from paying his bill, came in. Out of the clear blue I ask him if I could give him a tithe to his church....I'm thinking....gee did I just say that? I was making half the salary I was used to.
Anyway he said better yet come to one of our services.
My daughter and I and granddaughter did not miss one service for a year.  There I was brought back into the fold that I had ran away from and back to my shepherd.

I knew that Jesus the good shepherd, left the ninety and nine and came and got me. He knew where I was all the time. Who put that book there? no one knew...why did the pastor come in so soon? why did I want to tithe? why did I go to his storefront store church in the middle of cracktown with maybe 20 members? Why? Because nothing ever snatched me out of the palm of his hand.  They discipled us and we moved on, but were renewed in Christ.

Guess what my personal ministry is? Girls and young women in minimum security prisons. Had I never experienced all that crapola that I experienced in and around clubs, bars, alcohol, drugs and no telling what else, I wouldn't even have a first hand testimony for these girls.

That's why I believe once saved always saved.....unless I blaspheme the Holy Spirit.....Jesus said NOTHING will snatch you out of my hand.....even if you're mia for 33 yrs.

I always had boundaries other people around me didn't. I did a lot of sinful things, but I never got addicted to drugs, the drugs  were all around me, living and singing in a rock'n roll road band. He snatched me back in the twinkleing of an eye. I had nothing to do with it....except to open the door the morning HE knocked so loudly on my heart....thank you Lord Jesus, thank you for being relentless, I don't deserve it, but I wanna thank ya Lord.

From the time I woke up that morning and said help me Lord, it still took me a few months to even realize what the heck was going on with me. 

Thank you God for your Son Jesus, who left the ninty and nine and came to get His lost lamb that didn't even know she was lost. Glory be to the Lamb of the Living God.

Sorry so long,
Love,
Ramblin' Rose LOL


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2008)

idsman75 said:


> I guess we interpret the word "rejection" quite a bit differently.  When I see the words "rejection of the Holy Spirit", thoughts of the "Unforgivable Sin" are conjured up in my mind.  A child may disobey his parents but that child does not reject or love his parents any less.  If I stub my toe and utter a profanity, I didn't "reject the Holy Spirit".
> 
> Before I was sealed with the Holy Spirit, every sin was a symbol of my rejection of God.  After being sealed by the Holy Spirit, it is like a dog returning to its vomit.  Sin revolts the Christian but the Christian still sins.  However, each individual sin is no longer symbolic of a spirit of rejection of God.  If each sin WERE a rejection of God then the sin itself would not be revolting to the Christian.  The very reason sin revolts the Christian (even though he commits it after being sealed by the Spirit), is that the Christian has ceased to reject God.  That sin is no longer in congruence with the new and permanent relationship with God and the sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit.




I agree, nice post.

To blaspheme the Holy Spirit seems almost impossible to me. Even when I cursed at God, I still believed the Bible and in Jesus and that He died for me. I didn't go to church but I would've never denied Christ, ever. It never entered my mind. I was hiding from God, not denying Him.

The Holy Spirit searches our heart so He knows how we really feel no matter what we say. I just think it impossible to quench the fire of the Holy Ghost....after coming out the other side from a long journey  thru the valley of the shadow of death and looking back, how did I get here? why did I go that way? how did I survive? I was sealed, even if I have to make another trip, I know I'm sealed.
Thank you God!!


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## farmasis (Dec 23, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> Here's two sites that have been established to provide scripture that relate to both sides of the issue.
> Unbiased research on their part.
> 
> http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sava2.htm
> ...


 
So, are both right, or which one view?


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 23, 2008)

gtparts said:


> I can not see that this Samaritan was totally depraved, so far removed from God that he had no sense of right and wrong. Jesus commends the actions and identifies him as a neighbor.


 
It is not what we think is right and wrong that matters, it is what God thinks is right and wrong... Are there things that people do that are good? Yes, but I would say they did it more out of compassion for someone... You and I both know there are people in this world that are more compassionate than others, some are lost and some are saved... Does any of the works that the lost do win them a special favor with God? What is a lost person that is not saved, but yet does good works in the eyse of man? What is their nature?



gtparts said:


> What was the motivation of the Samaritan? I can only see a man who must have had a desire to know God and had enough understanding of Him to act justly and kindly, otherwise, why bother?


 
Motivation? Compassion... love for fellow men, you can have these things in not be saved, but these things are not done for the Glory of God, but just because the person felt sorry for the man, and saw a need... maybe he was raised to respect life, and care for people...

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 23, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Me? Don't give me any credit for what God did.
> 
> He says believe in him and you will never die. (John 11:26) He says, through Paul, confess with your mouth He is Lord and believe that He was raised from the dead you will be saved (Romans 10:9)
> 
> You feel that way because you have mental issues.


 
Was it not you that said there is evidence of both versions of Election in the Bible? I was just asking what is your interpetation of conditional election, since you know that "has to be the way to salvatin"??

Thanks for the mental issues comment...it was pretty funny...

But the website you reference whether you admit it or not, has a distinct hatred for Calvinist... If you can't see that, then I pray God will open your eyes to it...

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 23, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Do you think Jesus knows if a people has been called and rejected that calling?
> 
> 37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under _her_ wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, _‘Blessed_ _is_ _He who comes in the name of the LORD!’_ (Matt 23)


 

What I think is God chooses us, we do not choose Him... God is Sovereign, and knows all things...

Why would God offer Salvation to someone that He knows will not "accept" it? It doesn't make any sense... Just like Jesus blood is only needed to cover the Elect, and not anyone else, so why would God waste the precious blood of Jesus?

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 23, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Most definately. See Lucifer, Adam, Eve, Etc.


 

Lucifer is not us, he doesn't fall under the same conditions to be Human, and created in the likeness of God...

Do you not think God knew that Adam and Eve would sin?

Yes He did not make them Sin, it was their "Choice" but he already knew they would...

To me there is a difference in the supposed "choice" of Salvation, and the everyday choices we make... Salvation to me is much more important than the everyday choices that we make...

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 23, 2008)

farmasis said:


> We are sinners. We will continue to sin unless touched by God. But, are we depraved to the point that we cannot accept him and that he must make that decision for us?


 
YES!



farmasis said:


> 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God (John 1:12)
> 
> 7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature<SUP>[a]</SUP>will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. (Gal 6)
> 
> We might be incapable of finding God, but are we depraved to the point that we will not seek Him?


 
YES! God does the Choosing of those that will seek... Ever thought that someone that appears to be seeking God, could have already been touched by the Holy Spirit?

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 23, 2008)

Huntinfool said:


> No, of course not. But you clearly reject what God would have you do every time you sin. There is no way around that bro.
> 
> A complete and comprehensive rejection? Nope. But a rejection nonetheless.
> 
> ...


 
What if you don't get a chance to repent, what if you die right after you had said a curse word, in dislike to what some did in traffic, that caused a wreck and you died, before you could ask God to forgive you?


DB BB


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## Jeffriesw (Dec 23, 2008)

mtnwoman said:


> I've told this before....I'll use myself as an example of why I believe once saved always saved.
> 
> I was saved and baptized at the age of 12, I was on fire for Jesus and had been ever since I could remember. I wanted to be a missionary with Lottie Moon with all my heart.
> Until....my husband got killed in VN and I lost my mind. I was 23, had never drank or been to a club or bar or anything. Needless to say I was very angry with God. I met a musician who proceeded to lead me down into darkness and I didn't see light of day until I was 46.
> ...





Beautiful Testimony! Don't worry about being to long or ramblin, That is some ramblin we all need to read!

There is indeed redemption and freedom in Christ!


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## Ronnie T (Dec 23, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> Here's two sites that have been established to provide scripture that relate to both sides of the issue.
> Unbiased research on their part.
> 
> http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sava2.htm
> ...




Which view is right??

Since all scripture is inspired and none should be ignored, both sides of this issue needs to be studied and prayed about in order to come to understand Christ's teaching.
For me, it has to do with living for Christ.  In 2John, John refers to it as 'abiding in Christ'.


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## farmasis (Dec 23, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> What I think is God chooses us, we do not choose Him... God is Sovereign, and knows all things...


 
So why would Jesus want us to choose him then? Pointless words from Christ?




> Why would God offer Salvation to someone that He knows will not "accept" it? It doesn't make any sense... Just like Jesus blood is only needed to cover the Elect, and not anyone else, so why would God waste the precious blood of Jesus?
> 
> DB BB


 
Because Christ died for all, just like the Bible says over and over.
It doesn't make sense to send your son to die for the ones that you chose their paths for them in the first place.

Why did God choose Israel when he knew the bulk of the nation would reject him?


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## farmasis (Dec 23, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> YES! God does the Choosing of those that will seek... Ever thought that someone that appears to be seeking God, could have already been touched by the Holy Spirit?
> 
> DB BB


 
Most likely so.

God calls, offers a gift, and we accept or reject.


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## farmasis (Dec 23, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> Which view is right??
> 
> Since all scripture is inspired and none should be ignored, both sides of this issue needs to be studied and prayed about in order to come to understand Christ's teaching.
> For me, it has to do with living for Christ. In 2John, John refers to it as 'abiding in Christ'.


 
OK, so if there is "clear and unambigous" scripture to support both sides, and we have both studied and prayed and have come to opposite conclusions....what happened?


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## Ronnie T (Dec 23, 2008)

farmasis said:


> OK, so if there is "clear and unambigous" scripture to support both sides, and we have both studied and prayed and have come to opposite conclusions....what happened?




Obviously, your wrong

Seriously, I believe there is enough said in the scriptures that a person can clearly understand that God will always be there for the person who is truely seeking to abide in Christ.
But, although God will never turn from me, I can turn from God and walk away from my relationship with Him.  ..That I can forsake my first love.  And if I do, I am following Satan rather than God.


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## farmasis (Dec 23, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> Obviously, your wrong
> 
> Seriously, I believe there is enough said in the scriptures that a person can clearly understand that God will always be there for the person who is truely seeking to abide in Christ.
> But, although God will never turn from me, I can turn from God and walk away from my relationship with Him. ..That I can forsake my first love. And if I do, I am following Satan rather than God.


 

Surely you still sin, as I.
When do you make the turn from simple sinning to following Satan?
Must you be resaved when you sin? Can you be resaved?


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## Ronnie T (Dec 24, 2008)

farmasis said:


> 1.  Surely you still sin, as I.
> 2.  When do you make the turn from simple sinning to following Satan?
> 3.  Must you be resaved when you sin? Can you be resaved?




Answers to above questions:
1.  Yes sadly, I do sin.
2.  You hit the nail on the head.  There's a large difference in commiting a sin and following Satan.
3.  You must leave Satan and return to God.  Repent again.  Ask for forgiveness.


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## farmasis (Dec 24, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> Answers to above questions:
> 1. Yes sadly, I do sin.
> 2. You hit the nail on the head. There's a large difference in commiting a sin and following Satan.
> 3. You must leave Satan and return to God. Repent again. Ask for forgiveness.


 
I am enjoying our conversation and am asking you these questions to understand how others who do not believe in eternal security harmonize certain scripture, so don't get upset with me--OK?

17 Therefore, if anyone _is_ in Christ, _he is_ a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things _are_ of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. (2 Cor. 5)

OK, when we are saved, we are a new creature. What happens to the old creature?

5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be _in the likeness_ of _His_ resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with _Him,_ that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. (Romans 6)

So, the old creature was crucified with Jesus. Can the old be resurrected?

4 For _it is_ impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,<SUP>[b]</SUP> to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put _Him_ to an open shame. 

So, do we agree that our security is eternal even though we may sin? (I am not denying that that sin needs repentance and forgiveness and we may still pay a price for it, just that our salvation is still secure.)

I guess you could say that from verse 6 that they could fall away by deciding to renouce their belief in Jesus. To that, of course I argue that it is impossible to fall away because of the Holy Spirit sealing us until the day of redemption guaranteeing our inheritance (Eph 1:11-14), God's guarantee to keep us (2 Cor 1:22-23, 1 Peter 3-5) and Christ's guarantee to not lose any of us given to him (John 6:35-40) and that anyone who could walk away, was not of us to begin with because they have not been crucified with Christ (1 John 2:19).

I just don't see how we have the power to break those guarantees. I don't see conditions.


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## gemcgrew (Jan 1, 2009)

Why is it that people want to take the weakest aspect of their nature, their will, and build their religion upon it?


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## gtparts (Jan 1, 2009)

gemcgrew said:


> Why is it that people want to take the weakest aspect of their nature, their will, and build their religion upon it?




II Cor, 12:

5 On behalf of such a one will I glory: but on mine own behalf I will not glory, save in [my] weaknesses. 
6 For if I should desire to glory, I shall not be foolish; for I shall speak the truth: but I forbear, lest any man should account of me above that which he seeth me [to be], or heareth from me. 
7 And by reason of the exceeding greatness of the revelations, that I should not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, that I should not be exalted overmuch. 
8 Concerning this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 
9 And he hath said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for [my] power is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my weaknesses, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 
10 Wherefore I take pleasure in weaknesses, in injuries, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ`s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong. 





God is glorified when His strength is made manifest by and in my weakness.


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## fivesolas (Jan 2, 2009)

habersham hammer said:


> what he said!!!



Stonewall Jackson was a Calvinist. lol


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## fivesolas (Jan 2, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> But hey, what do I know....
> 
> According to a website that is referenced in this thread...
> 
> ...



Our brains have been washed in the Word.


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## Israel (Jan 3, 2009)

gtparts said:


> II Cor, 12:
> 
> 5 On behalf of such a one will I glory: but on mine own behalf I will not glory, save in [my] weaknesses.
> 6 For if I should desire to glory, I shall not be foolish; for I shall speak the truth: but I forbear, lest any man should account of me above that which he seeth me [to be], or heareth from me.
> ...



Yes.


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## Buckmoses (Jan 3, 2009)

There is no Satan.  There is a fictitous person we place all our shorcomings on, so as to avoid being responsible for them ourselves, but as for there being an actual devil, it is all allegorical.

The devil made me do it the first time, the second time I did it on my own.         -Billy Joe Shaver


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## rutnbuk (Jan 3, 2009)

This is my first post.  It is funny that this very topic is one I have struggled with.  What a HUGE can of worms opended here right?I have come to realize a few things in my desire to truly understand my salvation.  Number one is I really had nothing to do with it- it was by God's grace and if left up to me to 'accept' or 'choose' I would still be depraved and enjoying 'self' and this 'world'.  It is hard on a man to realize just how inadequate he is and that sometimes causes these type of debates to turn ugly.  Glad to see everyone is being pretty easy on one another-ha ha. My final note is to forget debating it and just read scripture and pray for the Lord to give you peace with how you were Saved.  Romans is key to this debate and lays it out pretty clear.  Also-what really helped me was Paul- did he really accept CHRIST on his own- no- he was on his way to round up some Christians.  

Enjoyed the post though- stay in the Word and stay encouraged.


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## farmasis (Jan 4, 2009)

rutnbuk said:


> This is my first post. It is funny that this very topic is one I have struggled with. What a HUGE can of worms opended here right?I have come to realize a few things in my desire to truly understand my salvation. Number one is I really had nothing to do with it- it was by God's grace and if left up to me to 'accept' or 'choose' I would still be depraved and enjoying 'self' and this 'world'. It is hard on a man to realize just how inadequate he is and that sometimes causes these type of debates to turn ugly. Glad to see everyone is being pretty easy on one another-ha ha. My final note is to forget debating it and just read scripture and pray for the Lord to give you peace with how you were Saved. Romans is key to this debate and lays it out pretty clear. Also-what really helped me was Paul- did he really accept CHRIST on his own- no- he was on his way to round up some Christians.
> 
> Enjoyed the post though- stay in the Word and stay encouraged.


 
Do you think Paul could have NOT chosen to go where he said to go and be baptized?

He had NO choice in it?

Why did God create robots? Didn't he already have angels to worship him. He wanted us to choose to love and serve him.

No doubt we cannot choose God until he chooses us, but we choose whom we will serve....


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