# Question about Santa and the Church



## THREEJAYS (Dec 11, 2006)

Is santa allowed at anyones church for any of the childrens programs?If so has it ever been a point of contention?


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## 60Grit (Dec 11, 2006)

Ours doesn't encourage the Santa thing.
We however played it up until our boy, 7 yrs. old, came home about a month ago with the big revelation that he got from his friends at school. He informed us that Santa was not real and we did all of the buying and stuff.

So we had fun with it for a few days, then we went out and signed him up for his very own defacs kid to support, got the list of needs, and took him shopping for the boy.

Then we brought him home and asked him to cross off four things on his list that he would give up in leiu of letting us help him pay for the defacs kids stuff. Not that we needed him to, but because we wanted him to feel the sacrifice in the giving.

I think he's gonna turn out ok. We hope and pray the Defacs boy does the same.


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## addictedtodeer (Dec 11, 2006)

Grew up in a family where Santa was huge(my dad actually put ash footprints on the carpet, then climbed the roof when we were in bed and rang sleigh-bells, thats dedication).
My wife grew up were there was no Santa, her father said
"If I tell a story to my child about Santa, why would they not think I'm just telling another make believe story about Jesus"
I strongly protested until I pondered it, so we've left Santa out and have never been disappointed. We focus on the Christmas story.
I've worked in churches that have done both.  Where Santa is emphasis, gifts and greed really do seem to be the focus.
Don't mean to offend, that's just my experience.


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## THREEJAYS (Dec 11, 2006)

No offense taken,it's just an issue that has come up and I was curious about how others did.


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## matthewsman (Dec 11, 2006)

*we have Santa for the kids*

and the Christmas story too...........People from all over the community come and have hot chocolate and do crafts with the kids too.....It's good fun for them,and a service to those who usually go to a mall to pay for pics etc........

It's a real good time for all........


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Dec 11, 2006)

matthewsman said:


> and the Christmas story too...........People from all over the community come and have hot chocolate and do crafts with the kids too.....It's good fun for them,and a service to those who usually go to a mall to pay for pics etc........
> 
> It's a real good time for all........



That's how I see it. Most of the people at our church don't encourage Santa but I don't see a problem with it. My Pastor and I kid abput having different Santa doctrine.


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## FERAL ONE (Dec 11, 2006)

we have a tree, but it is a crismon tree. i think that is the way it is spelled. the ornaments are all symbolic and so are the colors. they are explained every year in a special service while we decorate the church. it is called the hanging of the greens.


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## matthewsman (Dec 11, 2006)

*People get pretty deep into it*



No. GA. Mt. Man said:


> That's how I see it. Most of the people at our church don't encourage Santa but I don't see a problem with it. My Pastor and I kid abput having different Santa doctrine.



Coming from pagan roots and all....I understand where they are coming from,but when you see all those little eyes light up with the lights and excitements of the presents and Santa himself....throw a little drummerboy and a Manger scene in and a simplified childrens service with the Christmas story read out loud and even the adults are moved........


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## Lead Poison (Dec 11, 2006)

*Santa is ok, but church is for Jesus.*

I personally don't have a problem with Santa. Its really no different than reading or watching a fictional book or movie. That said, I don't believe church is the place for images of Santa. To me, churches are supposed to be reserved for whorshiping our Lord and Saviour Jesus, who truly is the reason for season.


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## Branchminnow (Dec 11, 2006)

Well if you have a problem with ole ST. Nic.at least from a christian point of veiw, then Halloween should certainly be a no no.


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## Branchminnow (Dec 11, 2006)

Dont get me wrong Im not against either one as long as they are done in a way just to have fun, but if you dont like Santa then like I said..................halloween should be worse.


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## Flash (Dec 11, 2006)

Church I attended as a child had Santa until I was a teenager. Don't remember him being there in any churches that I attended since then.


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## Hawkeye (Dec 11, 2006)

Santa is the big fat lie that replace Christ in children's minds.
Allow in my church ? I don't think so.


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## matthewsman (Dec 12, 2006)

*Of course it is*



Hawkeye said:


> Santa is the big fat lie that replace Christ in children's minds.
> Allow in my church ? I don't think so.



Of couse he is.............The commercialisation of Christmas is a sore point with people everywhere........

Go ahead and get rid of the tooth fairy,Easter bunnies and birthday presents too...if your children can't differentiate fact from fiction.

Many things hamper peoples spiritual relationship,most of them much more menacing or dangerous than a tradition of Santa.Santa is not a religion replacement,just a tradition.

It's all in fun,believe me,the Church doesn't stray from the truth.


Unless you have a very small church,or because of the Jewish conversions,I'd be surprised if you didn't have more than a few members celebrating it regardless of your feelings..........


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## SE.GAcoondawg (Dec 12, 2006)

Santa has never been to our church.  If you sit back and think about Santa, the world has given him all the attributes of God.  He sees you when your sleeping(omnipresent), he knows if you've been bad or good(all knowing).  As a little child my parents didn't discourage me from believing in Santa but none of my gifts were ever marked "from Santa".  At our church we have a "rocking chair service." Our pastor of 28 years sits in a rocking chair with every child in the church around him and reads from the bible the story of Christ's birth.  Then gives away a bunch of candy, we have done this every year he has been there.


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## Joe Moran (Dec 12, 2006)

No Santa at our church, but I have no problem with it.

I grew up with Santa, as my kids have too. It's just a tradition & it's fun. 
I remember one year, we took an old red stocking & ripped a piece off of it. I hung the ripped piece off of the damper in the fireplace & it looked like Santa ripped his pants going back up the chimney. The kids thought that was way cool!

My children well know what Christmas is all about, & we always go to a Christmas Eve service at our church.

Nothing wrong with letting kids believe in Santa IMO. Just as long as they know that they are really celebrating the birth of Christ.


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## 60Grit (Dec 12, 2006)

Branchminnow said:


> Dont get me wrong Im not against either one as long as they are done in a way just to have fun, but if you dont like Santa then like I said..................halloween should be worse.


 

Side note, I hate Halloween and see that it serves no purpose than to get more of my money for something that is not even a holiday.

I would be more than happy to see it just go away.


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## PWalls (Dec 12, 2006)

We have a church party in the fellowship hall next Sunday night. We will have an adult dress up as Santa and pass out some presents to the small kids. Prior to that, the pastor will read the Christmas story.


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 12, 2006)

If it does not glorify God then it has no place in the Church.

DB BB


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## FESTUSHAGGIN (Dec 12, 2006)

we always have a little christmas play.  all the kids are in it.  then afterwards santa comes in and hands out presents.  i see nothing wrong with it.  


if you do anything whether it be good or bad and put it before God thats when it becomes a problem.  if you put Santa before God then yes that is a bad thing.  bbut if you allow your children to believe in Ho Ho and teach them about the birth of Christ then i see no problem with that at all.  thats how i grew up.  thats how my children are growing up.


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## Joe Moran (Dec 12, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:


> If it does not glorify God then it has no place in the Church.
> 
> DB BB


 
Just curious, does your church have egg hunts for the kids at Easter?


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## reylamb (Dec 12, 2006)

My church does not have any reference to Santa, and I can't find any good reason to do so myself.  The simple fact is, Santa is not real, and telling your young children Santa exists is in fact lying to them.  Oh yes, it is a little white lie and all that, but my children do not believe in Santa, and my church does not push him either.

I have no problem if other folks want to tell their kids about Santa either.  My kids also know that they are not to tell other kids that Santa is not real, if they do they will be disciplined for it.  It is not thier place, nor mine, to tell someone else's kids that Santa is not real.


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## Joe Moran (Dec 12, 2006)

Question for all that don't let kids believe in Santa.

Did your parents let you have Santa when you were kids? Do you feel that it messed you up somehow?

I'm just curious as to what the big deal is.


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## Mechanicaldawg (Dec 12, 2006)

I guess those churches that don't allow the "pagan" Santa in also exclude all mention of Easter, the pagan festival of fertility as well, right?

I'm just stirring the pot. If you don't want Santa in your church, that is certainly an understandable decision made by the church body.

But someone help me? Why do we continue the use of the name of the goddess of fertility to describe the Resurection Day?


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## PWalls (Dec 12, 2006)

Jeff Young said:


> But someone help me? Why do we continue the use of the name of the goddess of fertility to describe the Resurection Day?



Must have something to do with that cute, furry little white rabbit? Do rabbits lay eggs?


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## Mechanicaldawg (Dec 12, 2006)

PWalls said:


> Must have something to do with that cute, furry little white rabbit? Do rabbits lay eggs?



No. However, I have been led to believe that they are quite good mathematicians!


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 12, 2006)

Joe Moran said:


> Just curious, does your church have egg hunts for the kids at Easter?



Nope and if it did. I would voice my opposition to it. Egg hunts are in celebration of a pagan goddess. Therefore it doesn't glorify God.

By the way we don't have "fall festivals" either....

I don't believe in Christmas Trees either....

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 12, 2006)

Joe Moran said:


> Question for all that don't let kids believe in Santa.
> 
> Did your parents let you have Santa when you were kids? Do you feel that it messed you up somehow?
> 
> I'm just curious as to what the big deal is.



Yes, as a kid I remember my parents telling me about Santa. I remember actually believing that Santa was real.

As a responsible Christian I can't continue to pass on these idols, be it Easter Bunny or Santa, on to others.

The bottom line is:

Does partaking in supporting the belief of these mythical creatures bring glory to God?

DB BB


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## Joe Moran (Dec 12, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Nope and if it did. I would voice my opposition to it. Egg hunts are in celebration of a pagan goddess. Therefore it doesn't glorify God.
> 
> By the way we don't have "fall festivals" either....
> 
> ...


 
Alrighty then!

Kids hunting for candy is pagan idol worship?

What's wrong with a Fall Festival?

Christmas trees? Are you kidding me? Not even with an angel on top?


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## Hawkeye (Dec 12, 2006)

matthewsman said:


> Of couse he is.............The commercialisation of Christmas is a sore point with people everywhere........
> 
> Go ahead and get rid of the tooth fairy,Easter bunnies and birthday presents too...if your children can't differentiate fact from fiction.
> 
> ...




No we do not celebrate Christmas in December, because of the Hebrew Calendar and events sorrounding the birth of Christ and the fact that constantine's mother establish Christmas to coincide with the sun god, we know that christ was not borned in December ,but rather following the Jewish traditions and the name given by the Angel gabriel to his Mother Myriame, we can establish that Emmanuel means God with us, so we celebrate the Biblical holiday of Sukkot, where God establishes His Personal Habitat with man on this date, that is more likely the birth of the messiah or God with us (Emmanuel).
Believe me we don't keep any of those pagan holidays.

Sukkot is one of the two Holidays Not Fullfiled by Jesus and it will be fulfilled on his returned when God will habitate with us on earth.
The second Holiday is Roshashanah the feast of trumpets or also known as Resurrection day.

God commands us to shun away from all the things of this world.


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## Joe Moran (Dec 12, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Yes, as a kid I remember my parents telling me about Santa. I remember actually believing that Santa was real.
> 
> As a responsible Christian I can't continue to pass on these idols, be it Easter Bunny or Santa, on to others.
> 
> ...


 
I hardly think you can compare this to idol worship.

I don't feel that it lessens God's glory in any way, as long as the parents also focus on the true meaning of these holidays.

We go to Christmas Eve services, & sunrise Easter services. We also have fun for our family. It's called a celebration.

I'll bet you enjoyed writing letters to Santa as well.

Obviously, it didn't damage your faith in God.

I just don't think it's right to deprive your children of something that brought you joy as a child.

I'm not trying to tell you how to raise your family, just trying to understand.


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## matthewsman (Dec 12, 2006)

*??????*

for the more "fundemental"

Does your job glorify God?Does playing "airplane" in the floor with your child glorify God?After all,that child may later think you were lying to them about an airplane......Is our time better served by reading to them from the Bible instead?nWould you better glorify God by quitting your job and prostylizing full time and live by faith as we were commanded?If your wife wanted to decorate for Christmas and go by the 'santa" traditions,would you leave her and follow Jesus without distractions?

Have you sold all your worldly possesions and lived by faith solely in Gods service?

Everything every Christian does every minute does not "glorify "God.

We should be careful that we do not use these traditions to displace God from the true "reason for the season"

However,doing good for our children does "glorify" God and the sense of family and love that come from these and other traditions "glorifies"God also.......


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## matthewsman (Dec 12, 2006)

*It sounds as if*



Hawkeye said:


> No we do not celebrate Christmas in December, because of the Hebrew Calendar and events sorrounding the birth of Christ and the fact that constantine's mother establish Christmas to coincide with the sun god, we know that christ was not borned in December ,but rather following the Jewish traditions and the name given by the Angel gabriel to his Mother Myriame, we can establish that Emmanuel means God with us, so we celebrate the Biblical holiday of Sukkot, where God establishes His Personal Habitat with man on this date, that is more likely the birth of the messiah or God with us (Emmanuel).
> Believe me we don't keep any of those pagan holidays.
> 
> 
> ...



It sounds as if God has revealed things to you that he has kept from the rest of us.....You may be 100% right,but I am reminded of the old long distance carrier television commercial in which one band member marched in a completely different direction than the rest of the band members..The question was,"why did everyone else go in the wrong direction?"


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## reylamb (Dec 12, 2006)

I will never forget what my 11 year old niece said to my in-laws last year when they told her Santa was not real............"you lied to me."

Sure it is an innocent enough lie, but I have made the decision not to rear my children by lying to them, regardless of how seemingly harmless that lie may or may not be.  For me it has nothing to do with pagan ways, or pagan meanings behind the holidays, it is the perpetuation of the lie that does not sit with me personally.


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## Hunting Teacher (Dec 12, 2006)

Look fellas. I have a little experience with understanding the way kids think.I've been teaching elementary school for 21 years now. Some are trying to use adult logic on kids here. Kids have no problem believing in Santa, but yet understanding that Christmas is about the birth of Jesus Christ. They can think on two different planes without being hindered by adult logic that says it doesn't make sense.
 Is it acceptable in your house for your child to have an imaginary friend, pretend they are superman, act like they are hunting and shooting a big buck.Do you encourage them by saying "What is your friend doing now" "Wow, look at you flying" or "That's a nice buck you shot." If so, according to some here's definition you are encouraging and giving support to behavior that doesn't glorify God.
A child using the imagination God gave them doesn't glorify Him and make Him smile?
Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree. 
Kids aren't minature adults and should not be forced to act like it. Let them have that wonder that God gave them. They will mature soon enough and with the wonderful guidance given by committed Christians like those that have posted here will be ready to honor God with their lives. I bet if you asked kids raised in Christian homes they'd tell you that Santa knew the real meaning of Christmas and would probably say Santa is a Christian. There are way bigger real concerns for us to fret over than whether our kids believe in Santa or not.
Teacher


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## reylamb (Dec 12, 2006)

matthewsman said:


> It sounds as if God has revealed things to you that he has kept from the rest of us.....You may be 100% right,but I am reminded of the old long distance carrier television commercial in which one band member marched in a completely different direction than the rest of the band members..The question was,"why did everyone else go in the wrong direction?"



I remember that commercial, and I remember an evangelist once using it as an analogy.  Granted rather than saying one person might be wrong for something he applied it to the verses that state (paraphrased here) narrow is the way to heaven and wide is the way to destruction.

I am not saying anyone is right or wrong, more "Christian" or less "Christian", or more led by the Spirit or less led by the Spirit due to allowing their children believe in Santa.  All I am saying is that I have decided that my wife and I as parents will not willingly lie to our children.  

I am also not big on the whole "Santa....Satan......being one in the same" that I have heard from some pastors either, and believe me, there are a lot out there that believe that.


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## 60Grit (Dec 12, 2006)

Hunting Teacher said:


> Look fellas. I have a little experience with understanding the way kids think.I've been teaching elementary school for 21 years now. Some are trying to use adult logic on kids here. Kids have no problem believing in Santa, but yet understanding that Christmas is about the birth of Jesus Christ. They can think on two different planes without being hindered by adult logic that says it doesn't make sense.
> Is it acceptable in your house for your child to have an imaginary friend, pretend they are superman, act like they are hunting and shooting a big buck.Do you encourage them by saying "What is your friend doing now" "Wow, look at you flying" or "That's a nice buck you shot." If so, according to some here's definition you are encouraging and giving support to behavior that doesn't glorify God.
> A child using the imagination God gave them doesn't glorify Him and make Him smile?
> Sorry, but I have to respectfully disagree.
> ...


 

Don't tell my 7 yr old he's not a miniature adult   

He is 7 going on 17, except for when I get the Board of Education out to unplug his ears. 

He did give up Santa this year though, thank goodness, now we can put him to work helping.


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## Branchminnow (Dec 12, 2006)

Atta boy Donnie.


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## SE.GAcoondawg (Dec 12, 2006)

The last few posts have brought up glorifying God in all things.  I may be wrong but wasn't the original poster refering to happenings in the church glorifying God.  The poster was simply saying that everything that is done as a church function or event should glorify God and not something else.  The church is God's house and as far as I'm concerned keep santa out of it.  We don't celebrate easter or halloween at the church.  My kids hunt eggs but they don't believe a 6 foot rabbit layed them.  My kids still write a wish list for Christmas, and I don't deprive them of presents.  They just don't write that list to Santa and they understand that those gifts are from us.  I don't recall getting any joy or benefit from believing in Santa, at that age my joy was in the presents.  To be honest with you I would not have cared who give me the presents.


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## SouthOfTheMasonDixon (Dec 12, 2006)

On a tangential note, do y'all watch the annual Christmas shows the networks trot out every year?  I've found it bothersome for a long time (since reaching adulthood, probably) that the only ones that mention the birth of Christ _at all_ are _A Charlie Brown Christmas_ (my favorite) and _The Little Drummer Boy_.  While I've no problem with Santa Claus, it seems most, if not all, of the rest concentrate _entirely_ on Santa Claus to the _exclusion_ of Christ.

BTW,  I still recall the day I used logic to dismiss Santa when I was seven and I was not bothered by it one bit.  I even asked permission to help my parents put out stuff for my baby sister that year but was told, "no."


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## Hawkeye (Dec 12, 2006)

matthewsman said:


> It sounds as if God has revealed things to you that he has kept from the rest of us.....You may be 100% right,but I am reminded of the old long distance carrier television commercial in which one band member marched in a completely different direction than the rest of the band members..The question was,"why did everyone else go in the wrong direction?"



Good analogy, my answer would be and not to be offensive to anyone.
The first church was 100% Jewish, once the gentiles began to come to Christ they incorporated things that they brought from their past religions, then the gentile Roman church sanctified a lot of those pagan beliefs and they remained today, then it was passed on to the evenagelical churches and so on.
Jews have never celebrated Christmas at all, but those of us who believe in the jewish messiah continue to be Jewish, we have not converted as someone said, it is the other way around, it is gentiles who convert, we simply add Jesus as the completion of our Faith.
This is what the apostles did, They added Jesus to their Judaic beliefs, it was meant for Christians to also fallow such beliefs ,minus the Law, but the antisemetic Roman church did away with everything Jewish in the churches.

Except for the wearing of the priestly robes and Yamulke on the heads, everything else was considered evil, so there went the knowledge that I have shared with you.
Shalom (Peace)


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## Joe Moran (Dec 12, 2006)

Hawkeye said:


> Good analogy, my answer would be and not to be offensive to anyone.
> The first church was 100% Jewish, once the gentiles began to come to Christ they incorporated things that they brought from their past religions, then the gentile Roman church sanctified a lot of those pagan beliefs and they remained today, then it was passed on to the evenagelical churches and so on.
> Jews have never celebrated Christmas at all, but those of us who believe in the jewish messiah continue to be Jewish, we have not converted as someone said, it is the other way around, it is gentiles who convert, we simply add Jesus as the completion of our Faith.
> This is what the apostles did, They added Jesus to their Judaic beliefs, it was meant for Christians to also fallow such beliefs ,minus the Law, but the antisemetic Roman church did away with everything Jewish in the churches.
> ...


 
I'm sorry, did you just say that Christianity is a mixture of pagan beliefs?


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## 60Grit (Dec 12, 2006)

Joe Moran said:


> I'm sorry, did you just say that Christianity is a mixture of pagan beliefs?


 
No that's not what he is saying.

Hawkeye, great thread.

The thing that encourages me the most on any of the Spiritual threads is that there is never a post, or I have yet to see it, slamming christians or christianity. I sure over time one or so may have existed.

But at least on this one, no one is standing up for Santa, while slamming those that believe in God.

Great group of guys, don't you think?


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## Joe Moran (Dec 12, 2006)

Hawkeye said:


> The first church was 100% Jewish, once the gentiles began to come to Christ they incorporated things that they brought from their past religions, then the gentile Roman church sanctified a lot of those pagan beliefs and they remained today, then it was passed on to the evenagelical churches and so on.


 
Maybe I'm not understanding. I'm reading that Christianity is a conglomoration of pagan religions.


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## Hawkeye (Dec 12, 2006)

Joe Moran said:


> Maybe I'm not understanding. I'm reading that Christianity is a conglomoration of pagan religions.




Well let's examine what the Church of Rome teaches briefly.

1)DEad people who were christians , have the power to hear your prayers and answer them.
That is called spiritism, or consulting the dead, something the word of God prohibits.

2) wordshipping of Idols.
That is called Idolatry, something prohibitted by the Bible.

3) Priests that can absolve you of sin by penitence.
That is replacing the salvatory power of Christ and his intercessory work at the Father's right side

4)teaching there are 3 persons in heaven called god.
The Torah teaches God is one in Number and there is no other God nor will there be another God afterwards, Isaiah 43

4)Priests and bishops should be single
The Bible teaches Elders and deacons should be married
and have children.
4. Incorporations of symbols such as cross as if it had power
The Bible says the cross was an instrument of death and not of power, the power is in he that was crucified and lived again, so the cross has no power over Him neither does it have over you.

5) Translations of the bible with an agenda and omitting hebrew books from teh cannon, again manipulation of the word.
6) The teaching that the church is Israel and therefore God has set Israel aside.
This is called replacement theology and it boils down to an antisemetic teaching.


If you are in a church that have some of these and many other beliefs, then you are in a pagan church


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## Tn_Extreme (Dec 12, 2006)

I ws raised up in a secular home where "the Santa thing", the tree and all the regular Christmas stuff was practiced.

After getting saved, studying the Bible and having children of my own we choose to not take part in the Santa stuff and the other practices that are pagan rituals twisted by the early RCC to be used in Christian worship.

We cant glorify God taking part in rituals that have been handed down for centuries from pagan beliefs.

The Bible says God is a jealous God.. 

Just my 2 cents worth.


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## jason4445 (Dec 13, 2006)

Most kids I know, the ones that go to church and the ones that don't, know more about and believe in Santa than Jesus.  Look at the general thought on Santa - brings goodness, is generous, all knowing, loves all kids, accepts all people good and not so good.  Man, that's just about like Jesus.  And if a kid believes in Jesus as much as Santa it is a double whammy, Dear Santa brings you presents, and Sweet Baby Jesus saves you from you sins.  Pretty good combination don't you say?


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## 60Grit (Dec 13, 2006)

My religion doesn't teach the dependance on, nor the belief in Saints.
Patron or not, why start with this one.


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 13, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:


> We cant glorify God taking part in rituals that have been handed down for centuries from pagan beliefs.
> 
> The Bible says God is a jealous God..


 

AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## addictedtodeer (Dec 13, 2006)

Hawkeye said:


> 6) The teaching that the church is Israel and therefore God has set Israel aside.
> This is called replacement theology and it boils down to an antisemetic teaching.



 Just want to clarify this. 
Paul states that Gentiles are grafted into Spiritual Israel (Romans 11).  That not all who are born in Israel are apart of Spiritual Israel(Romans 9:6,7; John 10:25-27). He then states that the two (Jews and Gentiles) become one flesh through Christ(Ephesians 2:11-22) . Israel as talked about by the apostles is the remnant made up of Jewish believers and Gentiles believers, made one body through Christ;therefore, Gentiles (through Christ) now are descendants of Abraham( Romans9:25; John 10:16; Matthew 8:10-12; Galatians 3:6-8,29).  Therefore the (universal) church is Israel.  One day we do have God's promise that through the church many of Natural Israel (descendants from the exile) will be saved (Romans 9-11). God is going to use the church to bring salvation back to Israel.
We're not talking about a physical nation here right?
If the above are antisemitic teachings then Paul and Christ would be antisemitic!?


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## Randy (Dec 13, 2006)

Santa has come to our church all my life.  I guess that's why my two sisters turned out to be drug addicts.  Some of ya'll are stupid!


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## HuntinTom (Dec 13, 2006)

THREEJAYS said:


> Is santa allowed at anyones church for any of the childrens programs?If so has it ever been a point of contention?



Yes.   No.


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## pfharris1965 (Dec 13, 2006)

*...*



Randy said:


> Santa has come to our church all my life. I guess that's why my two sisters turned out to be drug addicts. Some of ya'll are stupid!


 

Awww man you sugarcoated it...tell us what you really think Randy...


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## Hawkeye (Dec 13, 2006)

addictedtodeer said:


> Just want to clarify this.
> Paul states that Gentiles are grafted into Spiritual Israel (Romans 11).  That not all who are born in Israel are apart of Spiritual Israel(Romans 9:6,7; John 10:25-27). He then states that the two (Jews and Gentiles) become one flesh through Christ(Ephesians 2:11-22) . Israel as talked about by the apostles is the remnant made up of Jewish believers and Gentiles believers, made one body through Christ;therefore, Gentiles (through Christ) now are descendants of Abraham( Romans9:25; John 10:16; Matthew 8:10-12; Galatians 3:6-8,29).  Therefore the (universal) church is Israel.  One day we do have God's promise that through the church many of Natural Israel (descendants from the exile) will be saved (Romans 9-11). God is going to use the church to bring salvation back to Israel.
> We're not talking about a physical nation here right?
> If the above are antisemitic teachings then Paul and Christ would be antisemitic!?



What your Estating here is not replacement theology, most of it is correct.
Except maybe the church will be the instrument to bring Israel To Their own messiah.
In teh book of revelations God puts together an army of young Jews called the 144,000, they are virgins and 12,000 from each tribe of Israel , They are not Jehova witnesses lol, they will preach teh gospel to Israel, many will believe as they are doing now, this has been my ministry since 1972, we now have thousands of Jews worldwide that Believe Yeshua (Jesus) is the promised messiah.

We preach the Gospel of the circumcision that was meant for Jews and as preached By Jesus and peter,James, The church preaches the gospel of the uncircumcision that of Paul.
The Church Cannot preach teh gospel of the uncircumcision to Jews and ask Jews to stop been Jewish, that is not what Christ preached, we ask only that Jews Have Faith in their Messiah Yeshua and keep living the life of santity prescribed in the Torah.
This has been the major stumbling block in bringing Jews back to their messiah.

Replacement theology teaches that God set aside Israel and no longer deals with Israel.
We know that the word says God's covenants with Israel are eternal.
The Bible says God caused the Jews to be blined in order to save the gentiles Romans Chapter 11.
That because it was God who blinded them, God will graft them back into their own tree as the natural branches.
And their reward will be the resurrection from the dead.

The Bible teaches all of Israel will be saved, that Israel will wake up one day and see the messiah coming in the clouds and landing in Jerusalem on the mount of Olive, there they will ask what are these wounds in thy hands ? and he will reply in the house of my Friends I was wounded.
Then they will recognised it is Jesus and all of Israel will accept him as King Messiah.

All these events revolved around Israel not the church.
The church will return with Christ and be servants as priests and other duties as co-heirs of eternal life, not co-heirs of the land.
Resurrected saints who are eternal and have no physical needs do not need Land, The Israel who is still in human Bodies will inherit the earth as promised to Abraham.

Comments ?


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## HuntinTom (Dec 13, 2006)

THREEJAYS said:


> Is santa allowed at anyones church for any of the childrens programs?If so has it ever been a point of contention?



Yes.  No.


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## addictedtodeer (Dec 13, 2006)

Hawkeye said:


> The Church Cannot preach teh gospel of the uncircumcision to Jews and ask Jews to stop been Jewish, that is not what Christ preached, we ask only that Jews Have Faith in their Messiah Yeshua and keep living the life of santity prescribed in the Torah.
> 
> Comments ?



We may need to create a new thread!
Are you saying there are two versions of the gospel?
One for the circumcised and one for the uncircumcised?
Paul states we are one, so the gospel is the same for Jews and Gentiles.  I agree that the best witnesses for any culture are those who grew up in the culture. 
Also Paul says that Christ has fulfilled the Law (Torah).
Doesn't the ceremonial and moral law point to the messiah? 
So if the messiah has come why would it be necessary to continue practicing that that points towards Christ?
Christ did say that the moral law is summed up into the two greatest commandments so we must keep these to fulfill the moral law.
I'm asking cause I'm curious and I'm enjoying this.
Praise God for your ministry!


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## Oldstick (Dec 13, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:


> If it does not glorify God then it has no place in the Church.
> 
> DB BB



What about in the fellowship hall during the dinner or refreshments AFTER the real Christmas program?


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## Hawkeye (Dec 13, 2006)

addictedtodeer said:


> We may need to create a new thread!
> Are you saying there are two versions of the gospel?
> One for the circumcised and one for the uncircumcised?
> Paul states we are one, so the gospel is the same for Jews and Gentiles.  I agree that the best witnesses for any culture are those who grew up in the culture.
> ...



Am not saying there are 2 gospels, but there are 2 ways, paul said in Gala2;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
KJV: But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

So Paul was preaching to gentiles , while Peter to Jews.
In the Book of acts when the apostles and Paul argued on what to do with the new gentile converts and if they were to become Jews , they decided that gentiles should only keep the Noachide Laws and not the Torah Law, which was given exclusively to Israel.
Jews still have an eternal covenant with God , which have not yet been fulfilled, notice that the apostles did not say Jews should cease keeping the laws but rather then gentiles were not under the Law, except for a few laws ,not to eat blood and eat meat sacrificed to idols,etc.
Furhermore in the nT we find Peter and also Paul coming to Israel to keep certain Holidays which are part of The LAw.

You as a gentile cannot approach a JEw and say, well accept Jesuschrist and he will save you"as true as it might be, it is like saying to the chineese you need to grow to 6 foot tall and speak english.

First a jew will not recognise the name Jesus as a Jewish Name, you must refer to him in his true Name "Yeshua"

second Yeshua is the appropiation for the world's sin, therefore God is the savior, Jesus is the sacrifice.

Third, you must not involve a Jew in your church dogma, such as God is a trinity, A jew from the age of 2 is taught the "shema Israel"and he is taught to pray 3 times a day, which is the statement By Moses in Deuteronomy which reads , Hear ye Israel, Out LOrd is ONE God.
If you tell him from a start that God is 3 in 1 or whatever, you will loose him inmidiattley.

Fourth, Graven Images, The cross is a symbol by which millions of Jews have been persecutted in the past 2,000 years, The Cross is a symbol of death for Jews, Hundreds of thusands of Jews were crucified by the romans, Jesus was one of them.
So when you show a jew a cross is like making fun at them, like a swastika.

These are just a few of the things that have to be approached with , if you want to witness to a Jew.

Using English Words to quote old testament books is also not recommended ,most Jews will recognise the names of the books by their original Hebrew names, not english or other languages. ETC.

So the gospel is that Christ atoned for the sins of the world , to the Jew First and then The Gentiles, as Paul explained.


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## matthewsman (Dec 13, 2006)

*exactly*



greers57 said:


> What about in the fellowship hall during the dinner or refreshments AFTER the real Christmas program?



Although I respect the sanctity of the church,it is my personal belief that if you do anything in your life,the location should have nothing to do with if it is right or wrong.

The church is brick and mortar....The Church,is the people...You have a yard sale at home?Have one at the church for missions...You smoke at home,might as well smoke at church......You drink a beer with non-church friends or co-workers,have one with you church friends.

Celebrate Christmas with Santa as part of the tradition?Do it at church too.........Your life,is your life.No matter the location........


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## Double Barrel BB (Dec 13, 2006)

greers57 said:


> What about in the fellowship hall during the dinner or refreshments AFTER the real Christmas program?



Having Christian fellowship glorifies God.

DB BB


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## Spotlite (Dec 13, 2006)

reylamb said:


> The simple fact is, Santa is not real, and telling your young children Santa exists is in fact lying to them.  Oh yes, it is a little white lie and all that, but my children do not believe in Santa, and my church does not push him either.



I have no problem with your post, just a question about the above comment.

When reading a book like "The little train that could" "Little Red Riding Hood" "Three Little Pigs", considering what you are saying in that comment, are we lying to our kids when we read those books to them?


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## SouthOfTheMasonDixon (Dec 13, 2006)

Speaking of Santa and lying to children, finding out Santa wasn't "real" was _far_ less of blow to me as a child than learning just about every year in history class that what we were taught the year before wasn't actually true.  For example: Washington and the cherry tree, the silver dollar across the river and the beaver skin fortune telling machine pyramid scheme.


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## reylamb (Dec 13, 2006)

Spotlite said:


> I have no problem with your post, just a question about the above comment.
> 
> When reading a book like "The little train that could" "Little Red Riding Hood" "Three Little Pigs", considering what you are saying in that comment, are we lying to our kids when we read those books to them?



If you tell them there really was once a talking train.......or really a talking wolf.....or pigs that built brick houses, then yes, that would be lying.

My kids know who Santa supposedly is, any kid will.  My kids know Santa does not exist, and that is my decision.  I told them Santa does not exist, he is make believe.  He will not come in our house and deliver presents......he does not know when they are naughty and nice.......he does not ride in a sleigh behind flying caribou.........and I refuse to allow any present to have From Santa written on it, that is where the fiction turns into a lie.


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## BKA (Dec 13, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Yes, as a kid I remember my parents telling me about Santa. I remember actually believing that Santa was real.
> 
> As a responsible Christian I can't continue to pass on these idols, be it Easter Bunny or Santa, on to others.
> 
> ...



All I can say to this is just wow!  I don't thank God would hate you for letting a child have fun being a child.  You're not worshipping Santa.


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## Tn_Extreme (Dec 13, 2006)

BKA said:


> All I can say to this is just wow!  I don't thank God would hate you for letting a child have fun being a child.  You're not worshipping Santa.



I am sure some of the Hebrew parents said the same thing about the golden calf.

"Santa" symbolizes a figure from pagan lore.  The Bible says We are not to partake of such things..

Some folks dont like it when the Bible condemns their beliefs and lifestyles...I used to not like it as well.  but eventually we have to realize God wants ALL of us not just the parts we want to allow him to have.


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## jasonmiddlebrooks (Dec 13, 2006)

reylamb said:


> ride in a sleigh behind flying caribou.........




Thought it was raindeer........

Can't believe I have been lied to all these years!


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## HuntinTom (Dec 14, 2006)

THREEJAYS said:


> Is santa allowed at anyones church for any of the childrens programs?If so has it ever been a point of contention?



Yes.  No.


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## SBG (Dec 14, 2006)

I don't have a problem with Santa...but, I did tell my kids from the time they could comprehend that he wasn't real.


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## Spotlite (Dec 14, 2006)

reylamb said:


> If you tell them there really was once a talking train.......or really a talking wolf.....or pigs that built brick houses, then yes, that would be lying.
> 
> My kids know who Santa supposedly is, any kid will.  My kids know Santa does not exist, and that is my decision.  I told them Santa does not exist, he is make believe.  He will not come in our house and deliver presents......he does not know when they are naughty and nice.......he does not ride in a sleigh behind flying caribou.........and I refuse to allow any present to have From Santa written on it, that is where the fiction turns into a lie.



OK, I see where your coming from, thats cool


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## reylamb (Dec 14, 2006)

jasonmiddlebrooks said:


> Thought it was raindeer........
> 
> Can't believe I have been lied to all these years!



Aren't reindeer a subspecies of caribou????????  At least I thought they were.  Maybe they aren't, but I know they are commonly referred to as caribou in Alaska........


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## FX Jenkins (Dec 14, 2006)

We just studied Romans 14 in our home group ...and this is just one of the many issues that Satan will use to divide us to the point that we will segregate ourselves and spend more time arguing than sharing the love Christ today, further fueling the stereotype that Christians are judgemental and critical. 

If you have the freedom in Christ to put out milk and cookies, great...if you don't, thats fine too.  Let your circle of influence, and the world know,  that Jesus is the reason for the season by our compassion, not contention...


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## Flash (Dec 14, 2006)

Good post FX Jenkins


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## elfiii (Dec 18, 2006)

I believe in Santa, my adult children believe in Santa, and hopefully my grandchildren will too.

God gave us the "gift" of the Saviour. The wise men brought gifts to honor the Saviour. Santa brings more than "physical" gifts.

I'm glad I'm ignorant about all the paganism in Christianity, and a bunch of other "stuff" too.


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## SE.GAcoondawg (Dec 18, 2006)

elfiii said:


> I believe in Santa, my adult children believe in Santa, and hopefully my grandchildren will too.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I apologize I didn't know, I take back what I said about Santa Clause not being real.
> ...


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