# Sexual Purity....



## Banjo (May 8, 2009)

After being shocked by many responses concerning the "Christian" Beauty Queen....I thought I would post this.  I especially appreciated the insightful paragraphs concerning how modern pastors/evangelicals would have handled the same situation.  It is right on the money, as evidenced by many of the comments in the other thread.


Sexual Purity

The Fire of Phinehas
By Steve Gallagher

What happened that night across the Jordan River from Jericho would be spoken of in horror for hundreds of years to come.

For 40 years the Lord had painstakingly purged the love of Egypt out of His people in the wilderness. He had vigilantly protected them from the corruption of the pagan nations of the area. He had even weaned them of the carnal “flesh pots of Egypt.”

Now, as they sat poised to take the Promised Land, Satan used a turncoat prophet named Balaam to teach the Midianites how to destroy them. “This nation has a powerful God protecting them,” he told them. “You will never overcome them by force. However, I have a plan that is infallible.”

The next day, beautiful women arrived in the camp, inviting the Jewish men to a pagan festival that evening. After 40 years of eating manna, the thought of partaking in a lavish feast and sexual orgy was almost too tantalizing to pass up. They came to the sex party by the thousands, gorging themselves on sumptuous food, gulping wine, and indulging in the lewd and filthy perversions associated with Baal worship.

The utter carnality they gave themselves over to that night was bad enough, but there was something even more insidious than that at work here. Satan was not content to rob this new generation of their innocence. He wanted their souls.

The Lord attempted to limit the damage to His people by ordering Moses to have all of the guilty men publicly executed right away. Even as these death sentences were being implemented, one of the men brazenly paraded a Midianite princess through the camp and into his tent. This so provoked Jehovah that He ignited a plague which began sweeping through the nation. Thousands began dying. It was then that Phinehas, one of Aaron’s grandsons, intervened.

Before we conclude the story, however, it could be profitable to examine some of the ways this situation parallels what we are witnessing in today’s Christian world. We too have an enemy bent on our destruction. In a similar strategy, Satan is once again using sex to destroy the lives of God’s people. Over the past thirty years, sexual sin has gained an ever increasing momentum within the Church. The modern version of the Moabite temptress is pornography, which latches itself upon a man’s mind, filling it with evil.

As I pondered this biblical story in light of our present realities, I began to wonder what it would be like if modern church leaders had been present when this happened. No doubt a council representing the various groups of the Church would have convened.

Pastor Denny Denial, who lacks the wherewithal to help those in sexual sin, would have claimed that there really wasn’t a problem. He would become so overwhelmed by his sense of helplessness that he would simply go into denial. “I think you’re making far more out of this than is actually there!”

Self-Righteous Sam would express his disgust for the sinners. In an air of superiority reminiscent of the Pharisees, he would exclaim, “People like that just need to get it together!” His strong sentiments aren’t based in a love for God’s righteousness but in his disdain of anyone who struggles with obvious, outward sin.

Liberal Larry would be aghast at his utter lack of compassion. His solution would be to call for toleration. “I think we just need to embrace these people and make them feel welcome. After all, Jesus didn’t condemn sinners; He loved them!” In his humanistic form of mercy, he equates God’s love with a lack of concern over sin.

Religious Ron would see everything in simplistic terms. He has a formula for every situation he is likely to encounter. “If the person has confessed Christ with his mouth then he is saved and God’s grace covers all of his sin!” He has adopted a mindset that overemphasizes grace to the point that people’s behavior doesn’t really matter—as long as they have said THE prayer!

Not to be outdone, Carl the counselor wouldn’t come right out and claim that the offending parties were innocent of wrongdoing, he would simply spend so much time focusing on the lack of proper emotional nurturing they had received as children, that he would soon convince himself that they had no other alternative available to them. “What kind of behavior would you expect of them?” he would demand; “Look at how they were raised!”

God’s way of dealing with these sinners that day would have left this group shocked and appalled.

When Phinehas realized that the plague sweeping through the camp was a direct result of this shameless couple’s tryst, he grabbed a spear and ran to their tent. The two were locked in the throes of passion when the young priest burst in upon them and thrust the spear through both of them.

Phinehas was clearly God’s champion on this day. So impressed was the Lord with this young man’s decisive action that He immediately decreed that he and his descendants would perpetually retain the position of high priest. This is the kind of holy zeal the Lord wanted at the top of the priesthood.

And it was this very thing which David prophesied about the coming Messiah when he wrote, “For zeal for Your house has consumed me...” (Psalm 69:9) Yes, it is true that Jesus befriended sinners, but only in the hopes of leading them into the kind of repentance that would set them free of the shackles of sin.

How different is the feeble and spineless Jesus who is presented by many today. In the Foreword to Eric Ludy’s excellent book, The Bravehearted Gospel, my friend Ben Davenport writes the following:

“We have wholeheartedly embraced the sentimental, watercolor Jesus that seems to spend most of His time holding lambs and patting children on the head with some faraway, glazed-over, dreamy look in His eye. And we tend to shy away from, or altogether ignore, the man who spoke the truth of God so boldly that conspiracies were hatched, witnesses were bribed, politicians were entreated to bring about His painful and public execution… What do we do with that Christ who puts down the lamb and mounts the temple steps with whip clenched in white-knuckled fist…?”

We don’t like to think of Jesus in this way, but it was His Spirit that invoked the zeal of Phinehas that day. We might as well admit the fact that just because God is no longer striking people dead for their sin that does not negate His abhorrence of it. God still hates sin and there will be a day of reckoning for all those who flout His commandments.

The truth is that a lust for sin has swept through the modern Church. The great need for today is not teachers who look to explain away the guilt of sin but those who will call for its immediate eradication. We need leaders who will see sin through the eyes of a holy God. We need leaders who are willing to help the penitent and lovingly discipline the unrepentant.  We need leaders with the fire of Phinehas!


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## jmharris23 (May 8, 2009)

Yep


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## Double Barrel BB (May 8, 2009)

*amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## pnome (May 8, 2009)

Wow.  



> he grabbed a spear and ran to their tent. The two were locked in the throes of passion when the young priest burst in upon them and thrust the spear through both of them.
> 
> Phinehas was clearly God’s champion on this day....
> 
> ...We need leaders who are willing to help the penitent and lovingly discipline the unrepentant. We need leaders with the fire of Phinehas!



Lovingly, with a spear.

Banjo, sometimes you frighten me a little bit.


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## jmharris23 (May 8, 2009)

I knew Pnome would like this one


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## dawg2 (May 8, 2009)

pnome said:


> Wow.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



...I think she's stuck in the Old Testament...maybe the Koran


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## formula1 (May 8, 2009)

*Re:*

Leaders can only lead and present the word of Truth!  It is up to the Holy Spirit to purge the sin from individuals in the church and in the Body of Christ.  I trust the Holy Spirit to do just that!  Worry about that board in your own eye and you won't be concerned about the splinter in someone else.

Christ did say that he sowed the field with wheat but the tares also did come forth after the sowing.  Trust God to deal with the tares!  He'll either turn them into wheat, or cast them into the fire!


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## JOHNNY GREYWOLF (May 8, 2009)

Like I said on the other thread, you must be running out of stones to throw since you're so sinless.


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## Madman (May 8, 2009)

> Leaders can only lead and present the word of Truth! It is up to the Holy Spirit to purge the sin from individuals in the church and in the Body of Christ. I trust the Holy Spirit to do just that! Worry about that board in your own eye and you won't be concerned about the splinter in someone else.
> 
> Christ did say that he sowed the field with wheat but the tares also did come forth after the sowing. Trust god to deal with the tares! He'll either turn them into wheat, or cast them into the fire! ...Formula1



It only gets better, (sorry I think that was the topic of another thread)

This is a spiritual discussion.  If the Christian community cannot hash this out here then where can we?  
I suppose the lot of you would prefer to remain silent, maybe simply gossip about this over the garden fence. 

How about bringing it up at one of those gossip parties aka "prayer" meetings you have?  You know how it goes: "Brothers and sisters we need to pray for that Ms. California.  That the Holy Spirit would reveal the truth to her about running around 3/4 naked making the men lust and the women envious."

Have any of you ever thought that God just may use HIS Church to give Christian guidance to HIS people?  

Heaven forbid someone think a topic was being brought into the light.


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## Madman (May 8, 2009)

P.S.  Sick'em Banjo.  You speak like my wife and she is a 5'-2" 105 lb. beauty queen, mighty woman of God.  Raising, two 6'-+" teenage boys.  And she don't put up with no guff!  

Some priest friends and I were discussing how the church has lost her authority.  I see how.  WE HAVE SURRENDERED IT.  

We're more concerned with "not judging" and "throwing stones" than bring these topics into the cleansing light of God's Word.


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## formula1 (May 8, 2009)

Madman said:


> It only gets better, (sorry I think that was the topic of another thread)
> 
> This is a spiritual discussion.  If the Christian community cannot hash this out here then where can we?
> I suppose the lot of you would prefer to remain silent, maybe simply gossip about this over the garden fence.
> ...



Madman,

I completely missed the relationship of this to anything I posted.  Can you please enlighten me?


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## thedeacon (May 8, 2009)

I just cancelled out about a one thousand word commentary on morality. As I read it I thought to myself, It doesn't matter what I say, what pastors  say, what preachers preach, what elders decide or the board of deacons push.

This is a problem with the relationship that we, each one of us have with God. 

We all have and will make mistakes. When a Christian makes a mistake we make it with a relationship to God and that makes hard times easier.

Making a mistake outside a relationship with God can end up in desaster even though God is sitting just as close to the sinner or even the unbeliever as he does to the christian.

The important thing is for us to let God into our lives. 

We also should be swift to hear and slow to speak

The greatest gift my wife ever gave me was, her purity when we married and we have been married for 44 years.


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## Madman (May 8, 2009)

> Leaders can only lead and present the word of Truth! ...Formula1



Sometimes it is the churches responsibility to "reveal" sin in the light of God's word.  That is part of LEADING.



> It is up to the Holy Spirit to purge the sin from individuals in the church and in the Body of Christ. I trust the Holy Spirit to do just that!...Formula1



5  And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; and when he opened it, all the people stood up:
6  And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground.
7  Also Jeshua, and Bani, and Sherebiah, Jamin, Akkub, Shabbethai, Hodijah, Maaseiah, Kelita, Azariah, Jozabad, Hanan, Pelaiah, and the Levites, caused the people to understand the law: and the people stood in their place.
8  So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.9   And Nehemiah, which is the Tirshatha, and Ezra the priest the scribe, and the Levites that taught the people, said unto all the people, This day is holy unto the LORD your God; mourn not, nor weep. For all the people wept, when they heard the words of the law.  Ne 8:9

Salvation belongs to the Lord! It is the responsibility of the Church to teach!



> Worry about that board in your own eye and you won't be concerned about the splinter in someone else.



I always love a good "proof text."


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## Huntinfool (May 8, 2009)

> Self-Righteous Sam would express his disgust for the sinners. In an air of superiority reminiscent of the Pharisees, he would exclaim, “People like that just need to get it together!” His strong sentiments aren’t based in a love for God’s righteousness but in his disdain of anyone who struggles with obvious, outward sin.





I especially enjoyed this description, in light of our discussions in the other thread.


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## formula1 (May 8, 2009)

*Re:*



Madman said:


> Sometimes it is the churches responsibility to "reveal" sin in the light of God's word.  That is part of LEADING.
> 
> 5  And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; and when he opened it, all the people stood up:
> 6  And Ezra blessed the LORD, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with lifting up their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped the LORD with their faces to the ground.
> ...



Madman:

Just so you know, we are in agreement.  Let's just recap and you tell me:

1) It is the churches responsibility to reveal sin through its leadership, of course in the light of God's word. This is what I meant by 'Leaders can only and present the word of Truth.'  That is God's word and it includes the revelation of sin to all who hear.  I just happen to believe that it is the Holy Spirit who brings the conviction of sin to a believer.

2) Salvation belongs to the Lord! It is the responsibility of the Church to teach!  Salvation is the free gift of God to them that believe in Christ Jesus.  It certainly belongs to the Lord to give, but He loves to give it to all who believe in Him.  Yes, the church teaches. It is the Holy Spirit actually brings understanding through teaching of the Church, the Bible, etc. And in your scripture, the people weeped in response to the word of God.  Sounds to me like they we convicted of their sin by the Holy Spirit. 

3) I will concede the 'proof' text point. My intent was to via this paraphase of the scripture to remind the reader that you need to respond to God and you need to deal with your sin and let others take care of theirs.  I should not assume that by putting a small piece of it out there that all will get my meaning. Here's the actual scripture:

Matthew 7
1 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

I hope that my explanation makes more sense to you now.  I actually like the article in this post and do generally agree with its premise and conclusion.


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## Madman (May 8, 2009)

I know we agree.  We are all only "fine tuning."  But there are others here who may not be as far along as you are and some who don't believe at all so I believe the need for clarity should outway our desire for brevity.  I beseech you not to get frustrated with me nor ruffled.  I am pretty thick and sometimes need clarity.  As Columbo use to say, "Forgive me sir but may I asked you one more question?"



> Sounds to me like they we convicted of their sin by the Holy Spirit.



"After they were taught."  We are in agreement on the Holy Spirit, I did not intend to imply you are wrong,  I just added that Scripture to emphasis that the Holy Spirit does work in conjunction with us at times to serve His purpose.



> 3) I will concede the 'proof' text point. My intent was to via this paraphase of the scripture to remind the reader that you need to respond to God and you need to deal with your sin and let others take care of theirs....Formula1



Sometimes we are so blind in our sin we are incapable of dealing with our own sin.  I believe the Scriptures are clear that the Church has the responsiblity to help us with that.  I don't want to have to deal with my sins alone.  I want Godly Priests, Deacons, and brothers to come along side and help me.

God's Peace


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## formula1 (May 8, 2009)

*Re:*



Madman said:


> Sometimes we are so blind in our sin we are incapable of dealing with our own sin.  I believe the Scriptures are clear that the Church has the responsiblity to help us with that.  I don't want to have to deal with my sins alone.  I want Godly Priests, Deacons, and brothers to come along side and help me.
> 
> God's Peace



I'll have to agree that sometimes this is necessary.  In fact, I even know a scripture that address this.

Matthew 18
15 “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’[a] 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector

May God Richly Bless you and yours this weekend.  I'm headed out to see my Mother.


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## johnnylightnin (May 9, 2009)

JOHNNY GREYWOLF said:


> Like I said on the other thread, you must be running out of stones to throw since you're so sinless.



Show me, in Scripture, where calling sin what it is is forbidden.

In this story you're so fond of quoting, Jesus told the woman that she better change her ways.  Maybe I missed where Banjo was calling for a stoning.


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## redneckcamo (May 9, 2009)

*I agree*



dawg2 said:


> ...I think she's stuck in the Old Testament...maybe the Koran



WOW !!!!
bet she has her own chambers,wig an gavel for judging others .... I have been in churches with these types an dont care for their ----holy-er than thou ---attitude .....if you are not just like them they shut you out of their click an judge you unworthy of love or attention ..... I personally think this attitude is way more harmfull to christianity than what this girl  has done IN THEIR EYES !!


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## redneckcamo (May 9, 2009)

*xxx*



JOHNNY GREYWOLF said:


> Like I said on the other thread, you must be running out of stones to throw since you're so sinless.



attack of the sinless christians ....... Jesus was talking to the woman an told her to.... ''go an sin no more ''....

but I guess we have too carry red letters for them when they make mistakes .... an do you beleive that lady ever commited more sin ....... I do .... but I am not her judge or the judge of any man,woman or child ..... way too many holy-er than thou people in the benches an seats today and its turning the stomach of those who need their hearts turned away from sin ..... but the examples they see are making them sick


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## Banjo (May 9, 2009)

redneckcamo said:


> WOW !!!!
> bet she has her own chambers,wig an gavel for judging others .... I have been in churches with these types an dont care for their ----holy-er than thou ---attitude .....if you are not just like them they shut you out of their click an judge you unworthy of love or attention ..... I personally think this attitude is way more harmfull to christianity than what this girl  has done IN THEIR EYES !!




Wow.....you judging me???  Ain't that the pot calling the kettle black?  That is what you have accused me of doing....decrying the injustice and "un-Christian-nes" of it all....then you turn around and do it.  At least I practice what I preach....

I am using the Bible as my standard with which to judge.  By the way, that is what Christians are called to do......

Wow...I can just say...Wow.....All this condemnation towards me and I actually keep my clothes on in public and am teaching my daughters to do the same.....Wow.


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## pigpen1 (May 9, 2009)

redneckcamo said:


> WOW !!!!
> bet she has her own chambers,wig an gavel for judging others .... I have been in churches with these types an dont care for their ----holy-er than thou ---attitude .....if you are not just like them they shut you out of their click an judge you unworthy of love or attention ..... I personally think this attitude is way more harmfull to christianity than what this girl  has done IN THEIR EYES !!



 Apparently you have not read what the Bible says or you are just willing to ignore it, which ever I don't know but here is some of what it says...

Prov 27:5

5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.
KJV

1 Tim 5:20

20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
KJV

1 Cor 5:1-6:1
5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.

3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,

4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,

5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?

7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.


KJV


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## reformedpastor (May 9, 2009)

redneckcamo said:


> attack of the sinless christians ....... Jesus was talking to the woman an told her to.... ''go an sin no more ''....
> 
> but I guess we have too carry red letters for them when they make mistakes .... an do you beleive that lady ever commited more sin ....... I do .... but I am not her judge or the judge of any man,woman or child ..... way too many holy-er than thou people in the benches an seats today and its turning the stomach of those who need their hearts turned away from sin ..... but the examples they see are making them sick




This and posts like it are more examples of being guilty of going beyond the statements. You didn't like the post so you have completely attacked personally by assuming, judging, and presuming to know banjo's motives, practices and hobbies. 

I am beginning to think the modesty issue or sexual purity thing hits to close to home for many on here. I can only guess that in these churches many of the ladies, wives and daughters wear attire completely inapropriate in church?

Just a guess, but if our actions reflect the desires of our heart then I would guess this includes the things we wear or "not"; its not a stretch to think its easier for Dads to bash those who see this and address modesty or purity issues rather than address the hearts of his own family memebers or friends? 

I know these kinds of church exist because I have attended similar when I was a young christian and noticed that the women and girls dressed exactly like those I met in clubs! I was surprised to see that was acceptable. 

The bottom line is that these Dads like it, as well, they like it when others notice their wives "attributes" or Mothers when their daughters "mature looks" (instead of seductive) are verbalized. 


Maybe its just an Authority issue? Who knows.


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## Jranger (May 9, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> I especially enjoyed this description, in light of our discussions in the other thread.



Couldn't have said it better...


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## redneckcamo (May 9, 2009)

yall all judge me if it makes you feel better ....its what you do best anyway ...... but God sees yalls holy-er than thou attitudes of unforgiveness ....you are not fooling Him 1 bit !!


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## pigpen1 (May 9, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> This and posts like it are more examples of being guilty of going beyond the statements. You didn't like the post so you have completely attacked personally by assuming, judging, and presuming to know banjo's motives, practices and hobbies.
> 
> I am beginning to think the modesty issue or sexual purity thing hits to close to home for many on here. I can only guess that in these churches many of the ladies, wives and daughters wear attire completely inapropriate in church?
> 
> ...



 AMEN!!! and by the way Reformed Pastor, I am going to judge your wife, not that I have ever met you or her, but by the example that I see on here that she leads. I can tell she is a Godly wife to you and a Godly mother and example to y'alls girls.

  All I can say is thank you to the Godly mothers on here like Banjo and some of the other ladies on here who have not conformed to the world.

     Y'all have a wonderful Mothers day.


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## charlieboy (May 9, 2009)

redneckcamo said:


> WOW !!!!
> bet she has her own chambers,wig an gavel for judging others .... I have been in churches with these types an dont care for their ----holy-er than thou ---attitude .....if you are not just like them they shut you out of their click an judge you unworthy of love or attention ..... I personally think this attitude is way more harmfull to christianity than what this girl  has done IN THEIR EYES !!



  Why do you have a problem with someone pointing out public sin? Jesus Christ did this quite often. Usually the reason people who won't correct,rebuke, or trian others from Gods matchless word is because they themselves don't want to be called on to change or repent from their own sin. I am thankful that I know people who will point out my sin if I am too blind to see it. The girl did this in the public eye and professes to follow Christ??She should be rebuked publicly. I do think  the bible says something about adorning ones self,how much more about posing (for money) to adorn ones self to the world. What evidence(fruit) is there that she is a follower of Christ if what we see in public is that she is like the world. What you DO says more many times than what you SAY.Just my 2 cents YOUR attitude is what prevails in the church today and look at it's fruit.


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## Jranger (May 9, 2009)

I guess what really puts me off about the whole "purity issue" with the Godly people on here is how they professed to have sinned much worse or at least as bad as Ms. Cali once upon a time. Now that they are reformed they feel the need to call everyone else out on their problems? I have noticed this phenomena before and there are no boundaries to what topic it applies.

Funny, I don't recall ever seeing Mother Theresa calling anyone out on how bad of a sinner they are, just opening her arms to welcome them in times of need. Banjo, Reformedpastor, you both have stated that you were once extremely wild. Was it the very same testimony of Jesus you are giving now that turned you around or was it someone being a bit more subtle and understanding? Have you no compassion for other people who are in denial as you once were? It drives me crazy seeing people bash others for problems they themselves have been guilty of at one time or another.


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## redneckcamo (May 9, 2009)

*well okay*



charlieboy said:


> Why do you have a problem with someone pointing out public sin? Jesus Christ did this quite often. Usually the reason people who won't correct,rebuke, or trian others from Gods matchless word is because they themselves don't want to be called on to change or repent from their own sin. I am thankful that I know people who will point out my sin if I am too blind to see it. The girl did this in the public eye and professes to follow Christ??She should be rebuked publicly. I do think  the bible says something about adorning ones self,how much more about posing (for money) to adorn ones self to the world. What evidence(fruit) is there that she is a follower of Christ if what we see in public is that she is like the world. What you DO says more many times than what you SAY.Just my 2 cents YOUR attitude is what prevails in the church today and look at it's fruit.



since I have a problem ...... which is exactly yalls attitude towards everyone who doesnt fit in yalls envelope of purity ....... let me ask you this .... why do the finger pointers get all upset when a finger is pointed at them for their sins of judging ?? 

my point over there was an will be rite here too...... instead of the pharisetical finger pointing at this young woman who stood up against homosexuality in the face of the world that accepts it ...... why not just pray for her an support the view against abominations !......instead of bashing an smashing her in public like yall have done an consented too do?!?! 
 people blow me away gettin on the goody goody train !!


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## charlieboy (May 9, 2009)

redneckcamo said:


> yall all judge me if it makes you feel better ....its what you do best anyway (I think the bible does make better judgements than you)...... but God sees yalls holy-er than thou attitudes of unforgiveness (Has someone asked for forgiveness?)....you are not fooling Him 1 bit !!


Why is it, if you want to live by your understanding of Gods word and someone else don't they assume you think your bettter?? Either they don't agree with your understanding or they don't want to battle their sin because they love it and want to convince you to love it too. I am not sure can you explain?


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## Banjo (May 9, 2009)

Jranger said:


> I guess what really puts me off about the whole "purity issue" with the Godly people on here is how they professed to have sinned much worse or at least as bad as Ms. Cali once upon a time. Now that they are reformed they feel the need to call everyone else out on their problems? I have noticed this phenomena before and there are no boundaries to what topic it applies.
> 
> Funny, I don't recall ever seeing Mother Theresa calling anyone out on how bad of a sinner they are, just opening her arms to welcome them in times of need. Banjo, Reformedpastor, you both have stated that you were once extremely wild. Was it the very same testimony of Jesus you are giving now that turned you around or was it someone being a bit more subtle and understanding? Have you no compassion for other people who are in denial as you once were? It drives me crazy seeing people bash others for problems they themselves have been guilty of at one time or another.



You miss the point.....I didn't continue in that sinful lifestyle once the Lord saved me....He cleaned me up. He used people who weren't afraid to call sin "sin" to do it.

I am out of here for now....check back later.


----------



## charlieboy (May 9, 2009)

redneckcamo said:


> since I have a problem ...... which is exactly yalls attitude towards everyone who doesnt fit in yalls envelope of purity ....... let me ask you this .... why do the finger pointers get all upset when a finger is pointed at them for their sins of judging ??
> 
> my point over there was an will be rite here too...... instead of the pharisetical finger pointing at this young woman who stood up against homosexuality in the face of the world that accepts it ...... why not just pray for her an support the view against abominations !......instead of bashing an smashing her in public like yall have done an consented too do?!?!
> people blow me away gettin on the goody goody train !!



I want to be corrected by Gods word, Don't every christian? Standing against sodomy does not make you christian! She has publicly slandard Christ name by professing to follow him and denying him by her lifestyle and should therefore be rebuked publicly to protect the purity of the church.Isn't that loving??


----------



## pigpen1 (May 9, 2009)

Jranger said:


> I guess what really puts me off about the whole "purity issue" with the Godly people on here is how they professed to have sinned much worse or at least as bad as Ms. Cali once upon a time. Now that they are reformed they feel the need to call everyone else out on their problems? I have noticed this phenomena before and there are no boundaries to what topic it applies.
> 
> Funny, I don't recall ever seeing Mother Theresa calling anyone out on how bad of a sinner they are, just opening her arms to welcome them in times of need. Banjo, Reformedpastor, you both have stated that you were once extremely wild. Was it the very same testimony of Jesus you are giving now that turned you around or was it someone being a bit more subtle and understanding? Have you no compassion for other people who are in denial as you once were? It drives me crazy seeing people bash others for problems they themselves have been guilty of at one time or another.



 Thanks for that insight, now I can quit disciplining my children because I did the same as them when I was a Child. All us preachers can now quit preaching against sin because we all have sinned. 

   Will you tell your children to go have fornication because maybe you did? Will you tell them that its OK to go do drugs or get drunk because maybe you did? It ain't about what we did, its about what is right and what is wrong. We should try to warn people of the Road they are headed down and how do we know what road it is, because we have been down it before.


----------



## charlieboy (May 9, 2009)

Jranger said:


> I guess what really puts me off about the whole "purity issue" with the Godly people on here is how they professed to have sinned much worse or at least as bad as Ms. Cali once upon a time. Now that they are reformed they feel the need to call everyone else out on their problems? I have noticed this phenomena before and there are no boundaries to what topic it applies.
> 
> Funny, I don't recall ever seeing Mother Theresa calling anyone out on how bad of a sinner they are, just opening her arms to welcome them in times of need. Banjo, Reformedpastor, you both have stated that you were once extremely wild. Was it the very same testimony of Jesus you are giving now that turned you around or was it someone being a bit more subtle and understanding? Have you no compassion for other people who are in denial as you once were? It drives me crazy seeing people bash others for problems they themselves have been guilty of at one time or another.



Mother Theresa is not the standard of righteousness,Christ is!! Did he talk about sin?? Look where subtlty has gotten the church,you need to wake up . The church has used your approach for the last 100 years and look around, Gods way is much better than yours.


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## pigpen1 (May 9, 2009)

charlieboy said:


> mother theresa is not the standard of righteousness,christ is!! Did he talk about sin?? Look where subtlty has gotten the church,you need to wake up . The church has used your approach for the last 100 years and look around, gods way is much better than yours.



amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Jranger (May 9, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Thanks for that insight, now I can quit disciplining my children because I did the same as them when I was a Child. All us preachers can now quit preaching against sin because we all have sinned.
> 
> Will you tell your children to go have fornication because maybe you did? Will you tell them that its OK to go do drugs or get drunk because maybe you did? It ain't about what we did, its about what is right and what is wrong. We should try to warn people of the Road they are headed down and how do we know what road it is, because we have been down it before.



Your children are your responsibility. My children are mine end of story. Do not tell them what to do or say, that is for me alone. You are a preacher?  Would you stand on the pulpit and openly call someone out in your congregation in front of God and the community? I agree in making people aware of how bad the road is if you have been down it, but I do not condone doing it with an attitude of arrogance and elevated status quo.


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## redneckcamo (May 9, 2009)

*well here is the answer !!*



charlieboy said:


> Mother Theresa is not the standard of righteousness,Christ is!! Did he talk about sin?? Look where subtlty has gotten the church,you need to wake up . The church has used your approach for the last 100 years and look around,.................................................................................................. Gods way is much better than yours.


  ....Gods way according too you and your interpretation maybe ..... you wake up dood from you pharisetical hipocracy !!


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## Jranger (May 9, 2009)

charlieboy said:


> Mother Theresa is not the standard of righteousness,Christ is!! Did he talk about sin?? Look where subtlty has gotten the church,you need to wake up . The church has used your approach for the last 100 years and look around, Gods way is much better than yours.


 [sic]

The reason I used Mother Theresa as an example is because she was of this earth. None of us are Christ like and cannot even begin to draw a similar comparison. We are human and are called to witness Christ to others much in the way other missionaries do, which is through love and understanding, not stone throwing. I challenge you to convert a sinner using your methods over mine. You will lose!


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## redneckcamo (May 9, 2009)

*well*



Jranger said:


> Your children are your responsibility. My children are mine end of story. Do not tell them what to do or say, that is for me alone. You are a preacher?  Would you stand on the pulpit and openly call someone out in your congregation in front of God and the community? I agree in making people aware of how bad the road is if you have been down it, but I do not condone doing it with an attitude of arrogance and elevated status quo.



I feel the same way ... aka ..I agree !!!


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## Gold Dust Woman (May 9, 2009)

Nobody's method will work to convert someone. Only God can convert a person. Then, that person will stive to sin less (not perfectly) and to live a life pleasing to the Lord. How does one know how to live a life pleasing to the Lord? Not culture or tradition or society, but by the WORD of GOD!


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## pnome (May 9, 2009)

Dominic said:


> So Yojimbo you'd do it with a sword




Yojimbo would have blocked Phinehas' spear thrust at the last moment, then lopped off his head.  Then, the passionate couple would want to thank him, but he'd tell them to not bother and to get out of the village quick.

They of course wouldn't listen, so the couple ends up getting Yojimbo caught by the Israelites....  

Now, I don't want to spoil any more of the movie for you so I'll stop there...


----------



## redneckcamo (May 9, 2009)

*well now*



Banjo said:


> Wow.....you judging me???  Ain't that the pot calling the kettle black?  That is what you have accused me of doing....decrying the injustice and "un-Christian-nes" of it all....then you turn around and do it.  At least I practice what I preach....
> 
> I am using the Bible as my standard with which to judge.  By the way, that is what Christians are called to do......
> 
> Wow...I can just say...Wow.....All this condemnation towards me and I actually keep my clothes on in public and am teaching my daughters to do the same.....Wow.



WOW WOW WOW .....dont feel too good for people too call you out on your sins does it ...... judge not ! ..... pretty easy too understand !! ... or maybe it isnt


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## WTM45 (May 9, 2009)

pnome said:


> Yojimbo would have blocked Phinehas' spear thrust at the last moment, then lopped off his head.  Then, the passionate couple would want to thank him, but he'd tell them to not bother and to get out of the village quick.
> 
> They of course wouldn't listen, so the couple ends up getting Yojimbo caught by the Israelites....
> 
> Now, I don't want to spoil any more of the movie for you so I'll stop there...




Pnome, no matter how the movie ends it is nowhere near as terrifying and horrible as what happened in real life according to this Biblical story.
It scares me anyone would follow such teaching and think it is the right way to go.
Phinehas deserved a meeting with a noose for murder.


----------



## Ronnie T (May 9, 2009)

Jranger said:


> I guess what really puts me off about the whole "purity issue" with the Godly people on here is how they professed to have sinned much worse or at least as bad as Ms. Cali once upon a time. Now that they are reformed they feel the need to call everyone else out on their problems? I have noticed this phenomena before and there are no boundaries to what topic it applies.
> 
> Funny, I don't recall ever seeing Mother Theresa calling anyone out on how bad of a sinner they are, just opening her arms to welcome them in times of need. Banjo, Reformedpastor, you both have stated that you were once extremely wild. Was it the very same testimony of Jesus you are giving now that turned you around or was it someone being a bit more subtle and understanding? Have you no compassion for other people who are in denial as you once were? It drives me crazy seeing people bash others for problems they themselves have been guilty of at one time or another.




Thank you.

Our young adult Christians need personal growth leadership and teaching, not bashing on the internet by other Christians.


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## Ronnie T (May 9, 2009)

redneckcamo said:


> since I have a problem ...... which is exactly yalls attitude towards everyone who doesnt fit in yalls envelope of purity ....... let me ask you this .... why do the finger pointers get all upset when a finger is pointed at them for their sins of judging ??
> 
> my point over there was an will be rite here too...... instead of the pharisetical finger pointing at this young woman who stood up against homosexuality in the face of the world that accepts it ...... why not just pray for her an support the view against abominations !......instead of bashing an smashing her in public like yall have done an consented too do?!?!
> people blow me away gettin on the goody goody train !!



Yes Yes

I know a past beauty queen who is now a fantastic Christian mother who has served in several missionary positions in S. America.  I wish she had not been in the beauty contest.  But she has become what she needed to be.  A consecrated servant of God.


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## Ronnie T (May 9, 2009)

Banjo said:


> You miss the point.....I didn't continue in that sinful lifestyle once the Lord saved me....He cleaned me up. He used people who weren't afraid to call sin "sin" to do it.
> 
> I am out of here for now....check back later.



Let's pray that will happen and continue to happen for this young lady.  This could turn her in a much stronger direction toward God.


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## Banjo (May 9, 2009)

Jranger said:


> [sic]
> 
> The reason I used Mother Theresa as an example is because she was of this earth. None of us are Christ like and cannot even begin to draw a similar comparison. We are human and are called to witness Christ to others much in the way other missionaries do, which is through love and understanding, not stone throwing. I challenge you to convert a sinner using your methods over mine. You will lose!



We don't personally convert sinners.  We share the gospel and God does the converting....

Again...point missed.  This girl CLAIMS Christ.....but her activities show a lascivious and licentious lifestyle.  This is the problem.


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## Banjo (May 9, 2009)

redneckcamo said:


> WOW WOW WOW .....dont feel too good for people too call you out on your sins does it ...... judge not ! ..... pretty easy too understand !! ... or maybe it isnt



I didn't say "WOW" because I felt bad about you "calling out my sins."  I said "Wow" because I am amazed at the responses you have made.  I have a hard time understanding someone who claims Christ not seeing the blatant hypocrisy in posing nude....or participating in a beauty pageant that requires semi-nudity.....yet condemning the sin of homosexuality....Both are sexual sins.


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## pigpen1 (May 9, 2009)

Jranger said:


> Your children are your responsibility. My children are mine end of story. Do not tell them what to do or say, that is for me alone. You are a preacher?  Would you stand on the pulpit and openly call someone out in your congregation in front of God and the community? I agree in making people aware of how bad the road is if you have been down it, but I do not condone doing it with an attitude of arrogance and elevated status quo.



 In the eyes of God, that that is wrong for your children is wrong for my children end of story. And yes under certain circumstances I would call someone out openly and the Bible teaches to.

1 Tim 5:20

20 Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.
KJV

Prov 27:5

5 Open rebuke is better than secret love.
KJV

 Not just someone else, I would even call my wife out or other family members if they were bringing reproach on the Church and Christ. I have stood against my own father who was at the other end of the pew from me. Its not about family or friends its about right and wrong. I have stood and "called" my own self out in front of the Church for the sins that I have committed against the Church. There is a difference between offences, some are private and need to be delt with between those involved. Then there are open[public] offences that need to be rebuked openly.


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## WTM45 (May 9, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Again...point missed.  This girl CLAIMS Christ.....but her activities show a lascivious and licentious lifestyle.  This is the problem.




Now YOU are questioning her belief in Christ?

Good grief.  She wore a bathing suit in a competition.  A MAJOR competition.
That is a "lascivious and licentious" lifestyle?

Fundamentalism is some scary stuff.


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## messenger (May 9, 2009)

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

I have often thought the sounds of stones hitting the ground must have been great.

Romans 3/23
For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

I have to repent daily that does not make me any less saved than  the day  I ask Jesus to save me.


1st John 1/10 
If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Just a couple of thoughts and verses.


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## johnnylightnin (May 9, 2009)

This idea that each individual is the only one that can call their own sin "sin" is dangerous and unbiblical.  Paul was a sinner, he called sin "sin".  Billy Graham was a sinner, he called sin "sin".  Augustine, Aquinas, Tertullian...the list goes on and on and on.


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## johnnylightnin (May 9, 2009)

messenger said:


> Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.



And immediately after that, Jesus told her to go and sin no more.  He did not tender-foot around her sin so that she would feel good about herself.

He'll be the final judge to be sure, but that doesn't mean that he's the only one who can recognize sin for what it is.


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## WTM45 (May 9, 2009)

Using a pain killer during childbirth was once labeled a "sin" as a woman should have to bear the pain in accordance with the "Word."

Too many folks worry over the most simple of things in life.


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## Diogenes (May 10, 2009)

On the topic of sexual morality :

Genesis, 38:8:  And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother.

Deuteronomy 25:5: When brothers live together and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the deceased shall not be married outside the family to a strange man. Her husband's brother shall go in to her and take her to himself as wife and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her.

I mean, really?  . . . starting from the whole ‘be fruitful and multiply’ thing to Lot having many children by his own daughters, and not even scratching the surface of the idea with those few examples (let’s don’t even start with the idea of Joseph and Mary . . . ), one would be hard pressed to find the Bible as an example to justify the repression of human sexuality.  There is more ‘begetting’ going on than in a rabbit colony, and whole parts of it teach that all of this reproduction as a good thing, no matter who is the wife, even if she was not your own . . .  So where, exactly, does ‘purity’ and ‘abstinence’ as currently advocated, square with what the Book says?  

I can’t find a darn think that says, “Thou Shalt not get naked,” and I’m finding quite a bit that says entirely the contrary.  So what sort of ‘purity’ does one have in mind here?  Are we harking back to a Medieval idea that one can ‘cleanse’ oneself through the denial of the flesh?  If so, then how will the Christian Legions continue, in the absence of children?   Sooner or later, somebody has to do it.   I mean, God can’t immaculately impregnate every woman, can he?


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## Jeffriesw (May 10, 2009)

Madman said:


> Have any of you ever thought that God just may use HIS Church to give Christian guidance to HIS people?
> 
> Heaven forbid someone think a topic was being brought into the light.




What a novel concept..


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## Jeffriesw (May 10, 2009)

JOHNNY GREYWOLF said:


> Like I said on the other thread, you must be running out of stones to throw since you're so sinless.



I don't believe pointing out sin is the same as casting stones, 
Did not other Christians in the Bible ever point out sin to others? Seems like I read that a time or two somewhere..


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## WTM45 (May 10, 2009)

Swamp Runner said:


> I don't believe pointing out sin is the same as casting stones...



You are correct.
"Casting stones" is an act of carrying out punishment, or metering out justice.  Who has that authority in society?

"Pointing out sin" is someone taking a self-righteous stance of superiority and being judgemental using an individual interpretation of a holy book.  Who has that authority in society?  Which holy book is to be used?

Start "pointing out sin" and prepare for those who will question your interpretation of the chosen holy book.  And, prepare for a questioning of your authority to do so.

Start "casting stones" and prepare for the defendent to defend themselves.  Physically.


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## johnnylightnin (May 10, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> "Pointing out sin" is someone taking a self-righteous stance of superiority and being judgemental using an individual interpretation of a holy book.  Who has that authority in society?  Which holy book is to be used?



This is blatantly false.  Pointing out sin, in this context, is pointing to a set of guidelines that a certain group chooses to identify themselves with.  When you take the name of Christian,  you'll be held to a certain standard by others who call themselves Christians.

Lets say that you and I are in some flooded woods.  We meet a man who isn't familiar with hunting and we introduce ourselves as good ole ethical Georgia hunters.  He watches us both "hunt".  WTM puts out his decoys and calls the ducks in and kills a few.  I kill 4 times what he does (let's say he limited) and I'm shooting them over corn with an electric call.  Are you not well within your rights to point out that I am not representing good ole ethical Georgia hunters?  After all, that's what I identified myself as.


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## PWalls (May 10, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> You are correct.
> "Casting stones" is an act of carrying out punishment, or metering out justice.  Who has that authority in society?
> 
> "Pointing out sin" is someone taking a self-righteous stance of superiority and being judgemental using an individual interpretation of a holy book.  Who has that authority in society?  Which holy book is to be used?
> ...



That view leaves us all weak. Christians are to sharpen other Christians as iron sharpens iron. That is Scriptural. We are to all grow together. That means to acknowledge sin in ourselves and our brothers/sisters around us. Then we can help each other grow and overcome sin. That is the whole premise of an accountbility group. I don't recall reading where Jesus saw specific sin and just ignored it. Nor did the apostles. Any Christian who is to ashamed or proud to thank a brother for pointing out the splinter in his eye (even if that brother is looking around a plank) is a weak Christian. They should both help each other recognize those splinters/planks and deal with them together. That is the strength in Christianity.


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## WTM45 (May 10, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> This is blatantly false.  Pointing out sin, in this context, is pointing to a set of guidelines that a certain group chooses to identify themselves with.



Don't be suprised when those who you thought were in "your" group turn out to be in a "different" group.

There is so much differentation between those who think they know the right and only way it is amusing to say the least.


Believe what you will.  Accept that all will not agree with such fundamentalism.


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## WTM45 (May 10, 2009)

PWalls said:


> That view leaves us all weak. Christians are to sharpen other Christians as iron sharpens iron. That is Scriptural. We are to all grow together. That means to acknowledge sin in ourselves and our brothers/sisters around us. Then we can help each other grow and overcome sin. That is the whole premise of an accountbility group. I don't recall reading where Jesus saw specific sin and just ignored it. Nor did the apostles. Any Christian who is to ashamed or proud to thank a brother for pointing out the splinter in his eye (even if that brother is looking around a plank) is a weak Christian. They should both help each other recognize those splinters/planks and deal with them together. That is the strength in Christianity.



Make sure you have a real good understanding of the rules of the "accountability group" which you choose.

Suprises are unpleasant.


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## WTM45 (May 10, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> Lets say that you and I are in some flooded woods.  We meet a man who isn't familiar with hunting and we introduce ourselves as good ole ethical Georgia hunters.  He watches us both "hunt".  WTM puts out his decoys and calls the ducks in and kills a few.  I kill 4 times what he does (let's say he limited) and I'm shooting them over corn with an electric call.  Are you not well within your rights to point out that I am not representing good ole ethical Georgia hunters?  After all, that's what I identified myself as.



I would have to let a local court of law (understood and respected authority) make that judgement based on the legal and just interpretation of the current law.
I can not write you a "ticket" from my "ticket book" based on my subjective interpretation, can I?  I'm not authorized!

My determination will not be based on a subjective interpretation of a holy book.  It will be based on a reasonable and prudent application of governmental regulation and law.

Honestly, I would care not how you hunt, or worship.  That's up to you.  As you said, I got my ducks.  I will not be hungry.

Take what you need.  Leave the rest.  
But some need more than others.  How do I not know you are feeding an orphanage?


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## WTM45 (May 10, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> When you take the name of Christian,  you'll be held to a certain standard by others who call themselves Christians.



Sounds like a real mess.  I'd like a double order of it.

But most clubs hold members to a standard.  Why not a religious belief system.  I understand all too well how it works.  

Wouldn't the deity in charge be the bigger concern?
According to some, no.  That deity gives a simple way to eternal acceptance.  
People can't be content with that.  They want more of a demand, even if it is self imposed.


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## Diogenes (May 11, 2009)

Darn . . . and here I thought this thread was about the virtues of not getting naked . . . and the holy values that the Book ascribes to the purity of the flesh . . . as if such a thing would have caused any of us to be here in the first place . . . but then the darn hypocrites say not to cast stones at them, because it is only their own given and holy right to cast those stones at others . . .   Sigh.

It gets pretty tiring trying to figure some of you folks out.


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## christianhunter (May 11, 2009)

Alright The girl sinned,Let's pray for her.That she will be shown how to act, and conduct herself in the future.There are a couple of super-models,and actresses .Who have had bikini clad posters,as well as nude portrayals in movies.Then they got saved.They can't have them burned.Remember there are witnesses out there who knew us before we were saved.They know how we acted,what we did,etc;.It's the same thing only on a lower level of publicity.The beauty Queen Thread and these off shoots of it are Judgmental.We put ourself at a different level of sin for judging her,the more we post.


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## johnnylightnin (May 11, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> I would have to let a local court of law (understood and respected authority) make that judgement based on the legal and just interpretation of the current law.
> I can not write you a "ticket" from my "ticket book" based on my subjective interpretation, can I?  I'm not authorized!



No, you're not authorized.  You ARE authorized to let the guy we met know that I am breaking the rules.  No, you can't punish me, but that doesn't mean you can't speak out against my behavior.  By buying a license and identifying myself as a Georgia hunter, I agree to certain rules...it's the same with Christianity.

You speak as if all "interpretations" are subjective.  That's simply not true.  Authorial intent is difficult to discern in SOME cases, but certainly not in all or even most.


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## johnnylightnin (May 11, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Wouldn't the deity in charge be the bigger concern?
> According to some, no.  That deity gives a simple way to eternal acceptance.
> People can't be content with that.  They want more of a demand, even if it is self imposed.



What?  Of course pleasing God is more important than pleasing me.  Who says otherwise?

As for the last 3 sentences, that's just ambiguous fluff.


----------



## johnnylightnin (May 11, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Darn . . . and here I thought this thread was about the virtues of not getting naked . . . and the holy values that the Book ascribes to the purity of the flesh . . . as if such a thing would have caused any of us to be here in the first place . . . but then the darn hypocrites say not to cast stones at them, because it is only their own given and holy right to cast those stones at others . . .   Sigh.
> 
> It gets pretty tiring trying to figure some of you folks out.



Go ahead and get some rest.  While your sleeping ask yourself if stones and words are the same thing.  When you wake up, ask yourself if your striving to "get" those hypocrites has lead you to hypocritically holding them to a standard you're obviously not familiar with.

night night


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## WTM45 (May 11, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> As for the last 3 sentences, that's just ambiguous fluff.



Dismissed as out of hand..............


----------



## christianhunter (May 11, 2009)

PWalls said:


> That view leaves us all weak. Christians are to sharpen other Christians as iron sharpens iron. That is Scriptural. We are to all grow together. That means to acknowledge sin in ourselves and our brothers/sisters around us. Then we can help each other grow and overcome sin. That is the whole premise of an accountbility group. I don't recall reading where Jesus saw specific sin and just ignored it. Nor did the apostles. Any Christian who is to ashamed or proud to thank a brother for pointing out the splinter in his eye (even if that brother is looking around a plank) is a weak Christian. They should both help each other recognize those splinters/planks and deal with them together. That is the strength in Christianity.



Agreed,but one on one first.Then three witnesses,then and only then is the person turned away from the Church,for the sins they will not stop.There is also a "sin unto death"which applies to all Christians,if we repeatedly commit a sin over and over.GOD Only knows,when enough is enough.What edification has this brought To GOD or the Church.The unbelievers are having a field day with it.


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## johnnylightnin (May 12, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Dismissed as out of hand..............



Initially...

Upon further reflection, I'd have to concede that history proves you right...not universally, but in quite a few circumstances.  

However, I think there is a difference in the "simple" path to eternal acceptance and the actuality of walking that path after conversion.  Sanctification is certainly not simple and is very often difficult.


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## earl (May 12, 2009)

Wow ! So after I take your simple path to salvation [John 3 :16 ] then you tell me that all of a sudden it is going to become so complicated that people will fight wars over it. 
That is a sales pitch few could turn down .


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## johnnylightnin (May 12, 2009)

earl said:


> That is a sales pitch few could turn down .



Mark 8:34-35

It's there in the Word.  If I sell you something other than what's in the word, I'm not "selling" the Gospel.  It's not a pitch, it's reality.  Better to deal with it the way it is than to delude ourselves.


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## earl (May 12, 2009)

So John is incorrect ? Or do you really tell some one that you are trying to lead to Christ all the requirements that must be fullfilled before you get to  go to heaven ?
Sounds like you are taking something ''so simple a child can do it '' and turning it into something far different.


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## johnnylightnin (May 12, 2009)

earl said:


> So John is incorrect ? Or do you really tell some one that you are trying to lead to Christ all the requirements that must be fullfilled before you get to  go to heaven ?
> Sounds like you are taking something ''so simple a child can do it '' and turning it into something far different.



nope...salvation and sanctification are not the same thing.  I can think of nowhere that the walk of faith is described as easy in the Word.


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## WTM45 (May 12, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> However, I think there is a difference in the "simple" path to eternal acceptance and the actuality of walking that path after conversion.  Sanctification is certainly not simple and is very often difficult.




Only one is required for the end result of eternal life.
Correct?
Why does "santification" matter at all?


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## johnnylightnin (May 12, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Why does "santification" matter at all?



It is necessarily a by-product of true salvation.  Without it, the salvation experience is suspect.


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## Diogenes (May 12, 2009)

WTM45 asks: "Why does "santification" matter at all?"

Because it adds one more step, and if the preacher still isn't rich enough, he adds "purity," and then, perhaps, 'humility' . . .    Follow the money and you will find the truth . . . 

It isn't easy because easy would deprive a hard-working man of the cloth of his richly deserved temporal reward . . . in other words, easy wouldn't cost any money.


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## WTM45 (May 12, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> It is necessarily a by-product of true salvation.  Without it, the salvation experience is suspect.




That will have to be quantified.  That's saying it is anybody's business the relationship between a believer and his/her deity.

I'm seeing BIG bullet holes in this one, fellas.


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## johnnylightnin (May 12, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> That will have to be quantified.  That;s saying it is anybody's business the relationship between a believer and his/her deity.
> 
> I'm seeing BIG bullet holes in this one, fellas.



I'm not concerned with generic deity.  The Bible makes it clear that the relationship between a Christian and the Almighty is certainly the concern of the local church as a whole, the ministers to that person, and his Christian brothers and sisters.  

What would you like quantified and how would you like me to do it?


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## earl (May 12, 2009)

Without it, the salvation experience is suspect. 





> FOUL!!!!!!!!!
> Suspected by whom ?   If God suspects [all knowing] I don't think he is whispering in your ear.
> I gotta go with the other guys on this .Where is sanctification a requirement for heaven ?


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## WTM45 (May 12, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> I'm not concerned with generic deity.



Fill in your choice of deity.
Use your holy book.
Tell us where anything other than the relationship between the believer and the deity matters regarding eternal salvation.


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## johnnylightnin (May 12, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Because it adds one more step, and if the preacher still isn't rich enough, he adds "purity," and then, perhaps, 'humility' . . .    Follow the money and you will find the truth . . .
> 
> It isn't easy because easy would deprive a hard-working man of the cloth of his richly deserved temporal reward . . . in other words, easy wouldn't cost any money.





Yeah, you know Paul and the boys were just rollin' in the dough.  They were so temporally benefited by their sham religion that it put most of them six feet under.

Matthew 7:13-14 reads, "Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

You may think it's bull, but it's clearly not extra-biblical.


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## StriperAddict (May 12, 2009)

*sanctification...*

Here ya go...

*1 Thessalonians 4:3-8 (New American Standard Bible)*



 <SUP class=versenum id=en-NASB-29607 value="3">3</SUP>*For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality;* 
 <SUP class=versenum id=en-NASB-29608 value="4">4</SUP>that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 
 <SUP class=versenum id=en-NASB-29609 value="5">5</SUP>not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 
 <SUP class=versenum id=en-NASB-29610 value="6">6</SUP>and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. 
 <SUP class=versenum id=en-NASB-29611 value="7">7</SUP>*For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification. * <SUP class=versenum id=en-NASB-29612 value="8">8</SUP>So, *he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you*.


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## johnnylightnin (May 12, 2009)

earl said:


> Where is sanctification a requirement for heaven ?



Salvation is the requirement for heaven.  Sanctification necessarily follows salvation.

1 John 3:9:

_9(A) No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s[a] seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God._


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## gtparts (May 12, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> WTM45 asks: "Why does "santification" matter at all?"
> 
> Because it adds one more step, and if the preacher still isn't rich enough, he adds "purity," and then, perhaps, 'humility' . . .    Follow the money and you will find the truth . . .
> 
> It isn't easy because easy would deprive a hard-working man of the cloth of his richly deserved temporal reward . . . in other words, easy wouldn't cost any money.



To me, you seem to be abysmally ignorant of sanctification as it is referenced in the Bible. Not an attack, just a personal observation. The direct purpose of sanctification is to become more Christ-like because it pleases God. The unsaved cannot have any personal experience with sanctification and therefore cannot speak authoritatively on the subject. But, I am certain that your attempt to add derogatory comment on a subject you have no firsthand knowledge of, has been duly noted by the God you deny.


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## johnnylightnin (May 12, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Tell us where anything other than the relationship between the believer and the deity matters regarding eternal salvation.



My claim is that the evidence of the relationship is sanctification.  I've provided a "proof-text".


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## WTM45 (May 12, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> My claim is that the evidence of the relationship is sanctification.  I've provided a "proof-text".



And that is through a completely subjective individual analysis based on an individual interpretation of guidelines found in a holy book whereby the reviewer can read the heart and soul of the person standing judgement?


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## johnnylightnin (May 12, 2009)

earl said:


> Suspected by whom ?



yourself and those that minister to you:

_12Therefore, my beloved,(AA) as you have always(AB) obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13for(AC) it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for(AD) his good pleasure._

Philippians 2:12, 13


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## johnnylightnin (May 12, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> And that is through a completely subjective individual analysis based on an individual interpretation of guidelines found in a holy book whereby the reviewer can read the heart and soul of the person standing judgement?



No...that's the orthodox position.  I didn't just come up with it.  Remember, we're talking about the role of sanctification in the Christian faith.  If you think it's too subjective, give me your objective analysis of the text.

I've got a few Greek scholars opinions here in front of me if you're interested.

I'm not claiming it's an absolute test.  Of course I can't know the heart of another man, but if I see someone with no sign of sanctification in their life, I'm to treat them as an unbeliever and share the Gospel with them.  At least that's what the Word says.


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## Diogenes (May 12, 2009)

gtparts states: "To me, you seem to be abysmally ignorant of sanctification as it is referenced in the Bible."

No sir, I am not at all ignorant of what the Bible says, but because of this next part: "The unsaved cannot have any personal experience with sanctification and therefore cannot speak authoritatively on the subject," I can wholly reject it with a clear conscience.  

Show me a 'sanctified' person, by the Biblical definition.  Just one actual, living, breathing example.  One person who is wholly sanctified, meaning holy, pure, and free from 'sin.'  Then let that person speak to me 'authoritatively' on the subject.

If you are not that person, then do not condescend to me concerning what you believe I do or do not understand.  Sanctity denotes a sacred or hallowed character, and being 'saved' or not doesn't change one basic truth -- nobody alive fits that description.    

So who, on this earth, wishes to put themselves in the position of deciding just who has been 'sanctified?'  And if it is you lot, then what makes you think you have the standing?


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## WTM45 (May 12, 2009)

There is NONE righteous, no, not one.


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## johnnylightnin (May 12, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> gShow me a 'sanctified' person, by the Biblical definition.  Just one actual, living, breathing example.  One person who is wholly sanctified, meaning holy, pure, and free from 'sin.'  Then let that person speak to me 'authoritatively' on the subject.
> 
> . . .
> 
> So who, on this earth, wishes to put themselves in the position of deciding just who has been 'sanctified?'  And if it is you lot, then what makes you think you have the standing?



Full sanctification doesn't take place until the day of the Lord at the end of times.  

God will be the ultimate judge of who is sanctified.  Christians, however, are called to use their discernment regarding backsliding members and those who are not believers.  The ability to discern rightly can only come from Christ and, like our sanctification, our discernment will not be made perfect until the glorification.


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## johnnylightnin (May 12, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> There is NONE righteous, no, not one.



Christ was righteous and his righteousness is imputed to those who follow him.


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## Diogenes (May 12, 2009)

So now we've added discernment to it?  And the convenience that neither 'sanctification' nor 'discernment' will arrive until after death?  But you are called upon to use this 'discernment' that you don't have yet anyway?

Anything else?


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## johnnylightnin (May 12, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> So now we've added discernment to it?  And the convenience that neither 'sanctification' nor 'discernment' will arrive until after death?  But you are called upon to use this 'discernment' that you don't have yet anyway?
> 
> Anything else?



Keep beating up those straw men.  

The absence of the perfection of something and the absence of the thing are not to be equated.


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## earl (May 12, 2009)

johny,gt , sorry guys . You are rapidly losing credibility here . Now you are entering the realm of hoodoo,smoke and mirrors, and snake oil sales.


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## johnnylightnin (May 12, 2009)

earl said:


> You are rapidly losing credibility here . Now you are entering the realm of hoodoo,smoke and mirrors, and snake oil sales.



Excuse me?  What, exactly, have we posted that conflicts with the Word of God?


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## earl (May 12, 2009)

I'll have to address your posts tomorrow to be able to give them the attention they deserve.


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## earl (May 13, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> Excuse me?  What, exactly, have we posted that conflicts with the Word of God?



Rather than go through your post's one by one as I had planned, I suggest you read the post's made on various threads today. Many talk about how simple God's plan is and how we unbelievers try to make it complicated. Perhaps you will understand the christian version better than my unbelievers version. 

AS for an unbeliever not understanding the bible ,that is rubbish. I am sure there are parts that have a special meaning to you ,or you have had moments of ,oh ,that's what that means. That only means that you have found greater meaning in a book that you hold dear. It is no different than taking a saying from Confucius or any other philosopher and applying it to your life. You will find very few people ,even atheists, who will say that there is no wisdom to be found in the bible.
If unbelievers could not understand what they read ,without indepth teaching by another christian ,your conversion rate would be in the toilet.


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## johnnylightnin (May 13, 2009)

earl said:


> If unbelievers could not understand what they read ,without indepth teaching by another christian ,your conversion rate would be in the toilet.



I'm short on time at the moment.  Perhaps you could point me to some of the posts you're referring to.

As for the ability to understand the Scripture, in depth teaching of another Christian helps, but without the illumination that comes ONLY by the Holy Spirit, true understanding of the truths of the faith will never occur...despite the greatest Christian teachers in the world.

Conversions have little to do with persuasive arguments.  Conversions come ONLY at the prompting of the Holy Spirit (true conversions).


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## earl (May 13, 2009)

I disagree. The insertion of the Holy Spirit only allows you to put your personal spin on interpretation with no responsibility for your thoughts. Kind of like ''Because I say it says...'' and ''If you can't understand ,then it;s your fault''.


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## johnnylightnin (May 13, 2009)

earl said:


> I disagree.



On what basis?  What I'm describing to you is orthodox Christianity.  

_1 Corinthians 1:18-31 (New American Standard Bible)

The Wisdom of God

 18For the word of the cross is (A)foolishness to (B)those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is (C)the power of God.
 19For it is written,
         "(D)I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
         AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."

 20(E)Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of (F)this age? Has not God (G)made foolish the wisdom of (H)the world?

 21For since in the wisdom of God (I)the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, (J)God was well-pleased through the (K)foolishness of the message preached to (L)save those who believe.

 22For indeed (M)Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;

 23but we preach [a](N)Christ crucified, (O)to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles (P)foolishness,

 24but to those who are (Q)the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ (R)the power of God and (S)the wisdom of God.

 25Because the (T)foolishness of God is wiser than men, and (U)the weakness of God is stronger than men.

 26For consider your (V)calling, brethren, that there were (W)not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;

 27but (X)God has chosen the foolish things of (Y)the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of (Z)the world to shame the things which are strong,

 28and the base things of (AA)the world and the despised God has chosen, (AB)the things that are not, so that He may (AC)nullify the things that are,

 29so that (AD)no man may boast before God.

 30But by His doing you are in (AE)Christ Jesus, who became to us (AF)wisdom from God, and (AG)righteousness and (AH)sanctification, and (AI)redemption,

 31so that, just as it is written, "(AJ)LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."_


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## johnnylightnin (May 13, 2009)

earl said:


> The insertion of the Holy Spirit only allows you to put your personal spin on interpretation with no responsibility for your thoughts.



Umm...no.  I'm responsible to my church, brothers in Christ, and the body of Christ (throughout history).  

If my "interpretation" diverges from the most probable intent of the authors, it is recognized as an improbable reading by the entities I've listed above.


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## WTM45 (May 13, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> If my "interpretation" diverges from the most probable intent of the authors, it is recognized as an improbable reading by the entities I've listed above.



And those "interpretations" and "improbable readings" are highly varied between even the most studied of theologians as well as between the denominations.


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## johnnylightnin (May 13, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> And those "interpretations" and "improbable readings" are highly varied between even the most studied of theologians as well as between the denominations.



On some points yes.  On most of the major points, not so much.  There are disagreements about the form of Baptism and the method of some of the ordinances, but on the major issues, orthodox Christians are in agreement (that's why they're orthodox).


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## WTM45 (May 13, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> On some points yes.  On most of the major points, not so much.  There are disagreements about the form of Baptism and the method of some of the ordinances, but on the major issues, orthodox Christians are in agreement (that's why they're orthodox).



Plenty of PhD's and DD's will openly disagree.


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## gtparts (May 13, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Plenty of PhD's and DD's will openly disagree.




One would reason that having a PhD is not the pinnacle of spiritual understanding. Likewise, a DD degree is probably such a narrow area of study that it is completely inadequate to address many subjects. So, your point is?


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## Huntinfool (May 13, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Plenty of PhD's and DD's will openly disagree.



false...


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## WTM45 (May 13, 2009)

gtparts said:


> One would reason that having a PhD is not the pinnacle of spiritual understanding. Likewise, a DD degree is probably such a narrow area of study that it is completely inadequate to address many subjects. So, your point is?



The point?

Whether you want to believe it or not, "it" exists.
"It" is the wide variation of interpretations regarding even the major issues of Christianity.
There are major debates on translations.


Yes, those who have studied any religious belief system to the level of PhD, DD and other various degrees of Theology or Divinity will openly contend.


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## johnnylightnin (May 13, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Plenty of PhD's and DD's will openly disagree.



And just as many (more if you let me include those who've passed on) will agree, so I don't see how that's a feather in your cap.


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## WTM45 (May 13, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> And just as many (more if you let me include those who've passed on) will agree, so I don't see how that's a feather in your cap.



That's not what I seek at all.

When we realize the discussions of theology and religious studies have historically been ones of debate, disagreement, variations of interpretation and even translation we begin to open our minds to the possibilities that how WE think just might not be the only way.


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## reformedpastor (May 13, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> That's not what I seek at all.
> 
> When we realize the discussions of theology and religious studies have historically been ones of debate, disagreement, variations of interpretation and even translation we begin to open our minds to the possibilities that how WE think just might not be the only way.



A legend in his own mind.


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## johnnylightnin (May 13, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> When we realize the discussions of theology and religious studies have historically been ones of debate, disagreement, variations of interpretation and even translation we begin to open our minds to the possibilities that how WE think just might not be the only way.



The history of slavery has historically been one of debate, disagreement, and variations of interpretations (of laws and Scripture).

That doesn't mean that there were multiple correct positions on the issue.

You can replace "religious" with almost any word and this history remains much the same.


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## WTM45 (May 13, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> A legend in his own mind.



Ad hominem.........

Come on, RP, have anything to say about the subject of my post?


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## reformedpastor (May 13, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Ad hominem.........
> 
> Come on, RP, have anything to say about the subject of my post?



Nope, I am starting to sound like a broken record!


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## WTM45 (May 13, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> The history of slavery has historically been one of debate, disagreement, and variations of interpretations (of laws and Scripture).
> 
> That doesn't mean that there were multiple correct positions on the issue.
> 
> You can replace "religious" with almost any word and this history remains much the same.




It does not mean there was only one "right" interpretation or position either.  But some are downright adamant theirs is the only one that is.  Exclusivism.

It's the discussion of the history of how such religious belief systems thinking has come to be that is interesting.

Slavery (on this planet) is a human/human relationship, and is pretty far extended from the discussion of eternal life and eternal horror.  One is a reality clearly documented and proven with evidence.  The other is a faith based belief.


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## johnnylightnin (May 13, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Exclusivism.
> 
> It's the discussion of the history of how such religious belief systems thinking has come to be that is interesting.



Pretty simple for Christianity...the founder declared it to be so.


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## earl (May 13, 2009)

Well continue on with your magical mystery tour.It is impossible to describe a mental illness to the one who has it.


Nope, I am starting to sound like a broken record! 





> I agree .Typical christian. If you can't add to a discussion ,throw out an insult. Hooray for your side.


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## johnnylightnin (May 13, 2009)

earl said:


> It is impossible to describe a mental illness to the one who has it.
> 
> ...
> 
> I agree .Typical christian. If you can't add to a discussion ,throw out an insult. Hooray for your side.



Seriously?  Did you just type those things in the same post?

And Christians are called hypocrites...


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## WTM45 (May 13, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> Pretty simple for Christianity...the founder declared it to be so.





Replace the word "Christianity" with the name of any religious belief system and the sentence works wonderfully!  They are interchangeable!


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## johnnylightnin (May 13, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Replace the word "Christianity" with the name of any religious belief system and the sentence works wonderfully!  They are interchangeable!



Then how they came to think that really isn't that interesting is it?


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## WTM45 (May 13, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> Then how they came to think that really isn't that interesting is it?



Sure it is.  Religious belief systems are one of, if not the biggest subjects for study, research, book writing, public speaking and historical data of cultures and peoples of the world.


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## earl (May 13, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> Seriously?  Did you just type those things in the same post?
> 
> And Christians are called hypocrites...





WOW !!! That really was stupid of me and I do apologize for how that came out. I honestly did not mean to say that you were mentally ill.What I meant to convey is that if that is your belief ,there is nothing  I can say to change your minds.  Please take this as a retraction.


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## ToLog (May 13, 2009)

earl said:


> WOW !!! That really was stupid of me and I do apologize for how that came out. I honestly did not mean to say that you were mentally ill.What I meant to convey is that if that is your belief ,there is nothing  I can say to change your minds.  Please take this as a retraction.



Mental illness is an exceedingly serious subject, well outside the confines of religions of whatever type one wishes to mention.

some folks, back in the day, discussed schizophrenia as a mental illness. "possessed by the devil", bad disease, poor genetics, space aliens invading humans, chemical poisoning, poor nutrition, ad infinitum.

early on, there were about a 100 different, and strange conditions that couldn't be diagnosed, and so they threw them into the "schizophrenia" bucket.  later, as progress and understanding occurred, we're down to about 30 conditions that are unexplainable and are tossed into the "schizoprinia" bucket.

with further advancements in the pharmaceutical/chemical bizness, we should get down to about 10 or less unexplainable conditions, in the next 100 years or so, wouldn't you say??


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## pigpen1 (May 13, 2009)

My Doc say's I don't have a mental illness anymore and he gave me papers to prove it.


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## ToLog (May 13, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> My Doc say's I don't have a mental illness anymore and he gave me papers to prove it.



Hold on to those papers, Man! ya might want to be able to buy a gun sometime in the future, and if so, a paper demonstrating a clear bill of health could only be considered a valuable thing!


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## pigpen1 (May 13, 2009)

roothog said:


> Hold on to those papers, Man! ya might want to be able to buy a gun sometime in the future, and if so, a paper demonstrating a clear bill of health could only be considered a valuable thing!



 I still some times hear voices that tell me to stay home from work and clean my guns...


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## Diogenes (May 13, 2009)

But, C'mon guys, it can't really be a mental illness if my invisible friend, the Holy Spirit, told me what to think and do . . .  Honest, your Honor -- the voices I hear are the only true ones . . . honest . . .


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## pigpen1 (May 13, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> But, C'mon guys, it can't really be a mental illness if my invisible friend, the Holy Spirit, told me what to think and do . . .  Honest, your Honor -- the voices I hear are the only true ones . . . honest . . .



 My invisible friend thinks Earl has a mental condition...just kidding earl he didn't say that.


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## Diogenes (May 13, 2009)

I was going to introduce you guys to my invisible friend, but his friends told him that I don't really exist, and now he won't talk to me anymore . . .


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## christianhunter (May 14, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> I was going to introduce you guys to my invisible friend, but his friends told him that I don't really exist, and now he won't talk to me anymore . . .



You are going to be surprised one day.That invisible friend and his friends,that you are refering to. Really are there,they are probably helping you to say the things you say.His name is satan!


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## reformedpastor (May 14, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> But, C'mon guys, it can't really be a mental illness if my invisible friend, the Holy Spirit, told me what to think and do . . .  Honest, your Honor -- the voices I hear are the only true ones . . . honest . . .



Satan is a spirit too, but he ain't holy, just deceitful!!!!!!!!!


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## Branchminnow (May 14, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Wow...I can just say...Wow.....All this condemnation towards me and I actually keep my clothes on in public and am teaching my daughters to do the same.....Wow.



Hang in there!


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## Diogenes (May 14, 2009)

"Satan is a spirit too, but he ain't holy, just deceitful!!!!!!!!!"

Enough to fool even such a wise and sage soul as yourself into (gasp) sinning?  No!  Say it ain't so . . .


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## Double Barrel BB (May 15, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> "Satan is a spirit too, but he ain't holy, just deceitful!!!!!!!!!"
> 
> Enough to fool even such a wise and sage soul as yourself into (gasp) sinning? No! Say it ain't so . . .


 

Clearly enough to fool someone as yourself... I pray the Lord works on your Heart, if it be His will...

DB BB


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