# 2 Peter 2:20 They are worse off now than before?



## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2013)

These verses were given to me as a reference by mistake. Maybe it was for another reason. I read 2 Peter 2:20-21 and it did nothing but strengthen my conviction of being able to fall away from the Church. I would like some input on what could be worse than eternity in He!!. Matters not much who the verse is for or does it? I believe it was directed to Christians but if it wasn't, what was going to be worse for these folks than never knowing? 
It is a difficult scripture. I did find one article where the author believes Peter is talking to Believers but thinks the fate is a harder time while living on Earth for the believers. I'm not sure I agree as that is in no way worse than He!!.
From the article:
Second, it is evident in all three chapters of 2 Peter that Peter is concerned that his readers - believers - might fall into a sinful lifestyle as a result of the wiles of the false teachers whom he knows via prophecy are coming soon. Peter urges his believing readers to be diligent so as to keep from stumbling and falling (1:5,10; 2:18-22; 3:14,17). We err if we read into 2 Peter the idea that anyone who fell away would prove to be a false professor. Peter never questions the faith of his readers. Rather, he acknowledges it (e.g. 1:1). What he questions is the progress of their sanctification. 

http://www.faithalone.org/magazine/y1988/88may2.html


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2013)

True Christians that had fallen from grace?
There is a knowledge of the doctrines and duties of religion which may lead sinners to abandon their outward vices, which has no connection with saving grace. 
(this is related to non-believers who seek & have the knowledge, yet refuse God)
The latter end is worse with them than the beginning  (why?)

This appears to be related to Romans 1:21-28. although they knew God, they abandoned him.


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## barryl (Mar 1, 2013)

It's all about "rightly" dividing, 2 Peter 2:20-21, this is a Tribulation, keep the Commandments scripture. Just put it in the right place. Oh yeah, it was by mistake.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 1, 2013)

barryl said:


> It's all about "rightly" dividing, 2 Peter 2:20-21, this is a Tribulation, keep the Commandments scripture. Just put it in the right place. Oh yeah, it was by mistake.



Why are they worse off than before?


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## Ronnie T (Mar 1, 2013)

20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

And, from chapter 1:  10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 1, 2013)

And from chapter 3:  (a mention of Paul)  14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.


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## barryl (Mar 1, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why are they worse off than before?


Trib. and Mill.- Faith and "WORKS" I tell ya, if you would only dig into the word of God, and BELIEVE IT. Since 2008 we have "Beat this Horse to Death" We have the Perfect, Preserved, Infallible word of God !! The truths in there, 2 Tim. 2:15 KJV AV


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## barryl (Mar 1, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> And from chapter 3:  (a mention of Paul)  14 Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless, 15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness, 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.


Wrest the Scriptures, yes they do !!


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## gemcgrew (Mar 1, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why are they worse off than before?


Back up a couple verses. "These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever."

They are empty shells. They have an outward form of Godliness but remain Godless. When they stop pretending and return to their corrupt nature, they dive even further into the pleasure of sin.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 1, 2013)

One thing to notice is the mindset that this is sprung from. This is about the shephards, not the sheep. Notice vs 19, "they promise them freedom".


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 1, 2013)

for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 
(what happens if you quit practicing these things? You stumble

 be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness
(This isn't talking to sheep but shephards?)

How could a Shephard fall if sheep can't? They are most definitely teachers.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 1, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Back up a couple verses. "These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever."
> 
> They are empty shells. They have an outward form of Godliness but remain Godless. When they stop pretending and return to their corrupt nature, they dive even further into the pleasure of sin.



Are you saying they were tares? In what way will they be worse?
Nobody has answered that question. How will they be worse off? Why would it have been better if they had never known God?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 1, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Back up a couple verses. "These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever."
> 
> They are empty shells. They have an outward form of Godliness but remain Godless. When they stop pretending and return to their corrupt nature, they dive even further into the pleasure of sin.



In your opinion they were false teachers and never Christians? They had knowledge of God but not saving knowledge?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 1, 2013)

I'm not sure who they are but I just read the verse again:
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

These men had escaped the corruption of the wold by KNOWING Jesus.

I'm thankful for the replies. They will give me insight and study.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 1, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> In your opinion they were false teachers and never Christians? They had knowledge of God but not saving knowledge?


Yes, we are warned time and time again about this.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 2, 2013)

2 Peter 2:1 is about false teachers/shepherds just as bad as false prophets. Verses 2& 3 is about sheep: 
[2] And many will follow their licentiousness, and because of them the way of truth will be reviled.
[3] And in their greed they will exploit you with false words; from of old their condemnation has not been idle, and their destruction has not been asleep. 
Verses 4,5,6, goes on to show that if God didn't spare sinning Angels, The ancient world of Noah's time, Sodom and Gomorrah, 
Verses 7,8,9 lets us know that if God knows how to separate the righteous  like Lot who lived in a terrible sinning atmosphere, he  knows how to rescue the Godly from trial.
If angels with all their might & power can screw up, and Balaam, the son of Be'or.
17,18,19,20 is back to the false shepherds/teachers, not false prophets. If angels in Heaven can lose the faith, so can men;
Verse 4)For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - and committed them to pits of nether gloom to be kept until the judgment; 
( Let the false teachers beware, for God is well able to do the same to them)
Verse 21: They would be better off never know God, not of God, they knew God. Verse 20 tells us they knew God: they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Verse 18 is about sheep; [18] For, uttering loud boasts of folly, they entice with licentious passions of the flesh men who have barely escaped from those who live in error.
They were teaching that once the soul was save, the flesh could do whatever it wanted to do.
Verse 20; They have escaped,  they were once orthodox Christians who had turned from the pollutions (Gk. miasmata) of the world through the full knowledge (Gk. epignosis) of Christ. 
Verse 22 : that they have returned to their "FORMER" vile manner of life.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 3, 2013)

2 Peter 2:22: (Returns, goes back, you can't return if you never left)
Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit," and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

Clarke's commentary on this verse;
Here is a sad proof of the possibility of falling from grace, and from very high degrees of it too. These had escaped from the contagion that was in the world; they had had true repentance, and cast up "their soursweet morsel of sin;" they had been washed from all their filthiness, and this must have been through the blood of the Lamb; yet, after all, they went back, got entangled with their old sins, swallowed down their formerly rejected lusts, and rewallowed in the mire of corruption. It is no wonder that God should say, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning: reason and nature say it must be so; and Divine justice says it ought to be so; and the person himself must confess that it is right that it should be so. But how dreadful is this state! How dangerous when the person has abandoned himself to his old sins! Yet it is not said that it is impossible for him to return to his Maker; though his case be deplorable, it is not utterly hopeless; the leper may yet be made clean, and the dead may be raised. Reader, is thy backsliding a grief and burden to thee? Then thou art not far from the kingdom of God; believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved.

Adam Clarke was a Methodist. Do we have any Methodist on this forum who will defend falling from grace? If only they dunked!


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 3, 2013)

Not only did they return but to a fate worse than what they previously would have received from God. 
I still don't have an answer on what this fate will be. For knowing God and still returning?


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## gordon 2 (Mar 3, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why are they worse off than before?



They can hurt alot of people by leading them astray, not the least themselves and children in the Lord. They can do alot of damage.  In the spirit of the "beast", it is easy to call one's self --a lamb and believe your one all saved up... or sangtified as the day is long... etc...

 So where they were snared up before by a rabbit snare, and made free of it, by comparison they are now in a bear trap... And it is quite a trick to release a bear from his trap safe with his life... as you can imagine. Spiritually be prepared to get scratched up, mauled, beat up, chewed out, etc...and be willing to trust God with all your heart, not an .oz of it given over to something else... etc.

A  simple observation  as an example of how we can be trapped almost hopelessly is when people will claim to Love the Lord to the fullest and claim to do justice and yet are ever ready to sin and overlook sin in their zeal to hate an enemy?

To be willing to do justice to your kind and not to your enemy... is what beasts do. Yet, for the "faith"many will do it, hate...making them trapped worse than they were even when they were  innocently unaware of a man called Abraham. As a matter of fact the proverbial Pigmy in the rain forest is a giant in the faith compared to some of us. And it would be better that we had sayed there, never knowing Jesus, because there we could by accident or design have trusted naturally in Christ, the creator,-- whereas now we preach a gospel from a cross with our lungs and point fingers to "make no mistakes" in Christ, yet all along our souls are emplied of grace.

Maybe. Hope this somehow helps...


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 3, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> To be willing to do justice to your kind and not to your enemy... is what beasts do. Yet, for the "faith"many will do it, hate...making them trapped worse than they were even when they were  innocently unaware of a man called Abraham. As a matter of fact the proverbial Pigmy in the rain forest is a giant in the faith compared to some of us. And it would be better that we had sayed there, never knowing Jesus, because there we could by accident or design have trusted naturally in Christ, the creator,-- whereas now we preach a gospel from a cross with our lungs and point fingers to "make no mistakes" in Christ, yet all along our souls are emplied of grace.
> 
> Maybe. Hope this somehow helps...



Every response leads me to a better understanding. So the Pigmy who has never heard of God will somehow be better off than someone who has KNOWN God but RETURNED to his former hog waller?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 3, 2013)

2 John 1:9 Anyone who wanders away from this teaching has no relationship with God. But anyone who remains in the teaching of Christ has a relationship with both the Father and the Son.

Christians can't "wander away" and expect to "remain" or they will lose their "relationship"


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## gordon 2 (Mar 3, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Every response leads me to a better understanding. So the Pigmy who has never heard of God will somehow be better off than someone who has KNOWN God but RETURNED to his former hog waller?



No. They don't return to the Hog Waller. The spiritual Best Western on a transit to nowhere is where they move to... They move one foot in heaven, one in the world and for a defense they say they are commissioned to minister to it. This is where they move to... to Idol Worships --but it is still not home. Like Pilots cleaning themselves--they wash their own hands of sin, refusing Christ to do it, but yet saying to all, " Are you saved." They are in pretty bad shape as leaders and examples... They are spiritual misfits calling children the spawns of sin for sin is all they know. They have taken good food and made it poison to themselves. A root at the bottom of a hog waller being a better food they were better off in the first place.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 3, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> 2 John 1:9 Anyone who wanders away from this teaching has no relationship with God. But anyone who remains in the teaching of Christ has a relationship with both the Father and the Son.
> 
> Christians can't "wander away" and expect to "remain" or they will lose their "relationship"



Ronnie T said the other day...said... some thing like this; "What we need is less bible scholars and more desciples. " 

Ever wonder why? What this has to do with the price of bread? I'll venture my .02cents.

Desciples have( or try to obtain) spiritual common sense--like Jesus had! and not like religious spirits have, not like over scupulous spirits have, or overly dogmatic spirits have..... because these have no spiritual common sense...

They will crush an innocent child of God with as much ease as sactionning the rubbing out  of their numerous enemies( people and peoples) from of face of the earth. They are quite willing to play the creation record backwards, instead of moving it forward  and all in the name of God.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 3, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
> 
> And, from chapter 1:  10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble; 11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.





I have always felt that not only individuals have callings. Different denominations, individual churches, congragations, movements... all have special and unique callings or charisma. Don't know fully why I feel this way... but I do.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 3, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> I have always felt that not only individuals have callings. Different denominations, individual churches, congragations, movements... all have special and unique callings or charisma. Don't know fully why I feel this way... but I do.



My wife feels everyone is called  to their field of work by God. Maybe preachers, I don't know. If I had to sit with an old person like Mtnwoman, that would have to be a calling to a person with lots of patience.

 for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble
(it's what happens when you don't practice these things we have to worry about)


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## mtnwoman (Mar 3, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Are you saying they were tares? In what way will they be worse?
> Nobody has answered that question. How will they be worse off? Why would it have been better if they had never known God?



Perhaps, I'm just saying perhaps. If you've never heard the gospel and don't know that you can accept that gift of salvation that maybe you just die and go nowhere. 

Just a thought.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 3, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> I have always felt that not only individuals have callings. Different denominations, individual churches, congragations, movements... all have special and unique callings or charisma. Don't know fully why I feel this way... but I do.



I feel the same way.

I believe our steps are directed by the Lord, even though we may not even realize that...or it may seem like a lowly calling but there is a reason. Like Art said about my job....I got that job about 2 weeks before my meazly $100 a week unemployment stopped without notice. So I know I was directed there. I was desperate for a job and had worked for her before and knew what she was like. And I'm not saying she's terrible for someone her age or her circumstance, but I know I'm the only one that can put up with her. Add those two things together and I come up with God answers prayers for us all. She called me out of the clear blue after 4 years, 2 weeks before I was gonna be broke again. The Jesus in me will not allow me to do anything else besides have mercy and grace on her.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 3, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> I believe our steps are directed by the Lord, even though we may not even realize that...


Mind if I use this quote in our other discussion on free will?


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## mtnwoman (Mar 3, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Mind if I use this quote in our other discussion on free will?



You can use it, if you wanna. If you think that will change anything, like my feeble mind...

My steps are directed, but I've got to cooperate and when I surrender my steps to Him, He knows best. I just don't always do that and that could change tomorrow, if my fruit of patience dries up a bit. It's my garden to tend, and I have to tend my garden, not God. He gives me strength when I ask for it, but sometimes I work on my own free will which will shrivel my fruit. I know it, but don't always abide in it because my own will gets in the way. I can't blame it on God when my fruit of patience starts drying up...that's on me.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 3, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Are you saying they were tares? In what way will they be worse?
> Nobody has answered that question. How will they be worse off? Why would it have been better if they had never known God?



I think they will be worse off in their judgement from Christ.  They've heard the truth, been a part of the truth....but never embraced the truth.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 3, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> My wife feels everyone is called  to their field of work by God. Maybe preachers, I don't know. If I had to sit with an old person like Mtnwoman, that would have to be a calling to a person with lots of patience.



I would like to clarify this to say:
If I had to sit with an old person "as" Mtnwoman has to sit with an old person.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 3, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would like to clarify this to say:
> If I had to sit with an old person "as" Mtnwoman has to sit with an old person.



Man I'm glad I came across your re-explanation!
I was about to save your life.  Don't wanna get Miss Mtnwoman on ya.

Mtnwoman and me aren't old, we just highly matured.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 4, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Desciples have( or try to obtain) spiritual common sense--like Jesus had! and not like religious spirits have, not like over scupulous spirits have, or overly dogmatic spirits have..... because these have no spiritual common sense...
> 
> They will crush an innocent child of God with as much ease as sactionning the rubbing out  of their numerous enemies( people and peoples) from of face of the earth. They are quite willing to play the creation record backwards, instead of moving it forward  and all in the name of God.



If you don't mind, I'll be reusing these words of yours.
Very well put.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 4, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Man I'm glad I came across your re-explanation!
> I was about to save your life.  Don't wanna get Miss Mtnwoman on ya.
> 
> Mtnwoman and me aren't old, we just highly matured.



Gordon 2 beat you to the punch, Mtnwoman must be young to provide care to an elderly person.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 4, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> If you don't mind, I'll be reusing these words of yours.
> Very well put.



It is all yours...  Also, for what it's worth, deciples study and love people almost as  much as they love God... and that love is the kind of love Paul talks about... And i know you know this Ronnie T.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 4, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Desciples have( or try to obtain) spiritual common sense--like Jesus had! and not like religious spirits have, not like over scupulous spirits have, or overly dogmatic spirits have..... because these have no spiritual common sense...



I thought about that and that is what makes a store manager a good manager. He has to be able to use common sense bend the rules when needed. Not just go by the store dogma.

I just didn't know we could bend the rules. We could probably ignore the Church "overly dogmatic spirits" but not the Biblical "overly dogmatic spirits." I guess at some point though we can ignore the scriptures and be more spiritual as Jesus was and less overly dogmatic like the Pharisees. It looks like a fine line though.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 4, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would like to clarify this to say:
> If I had to sit with an old person "as" Mtnwoman has to sit with an old person.



At first I thought...hmmmm
But quickly I understood what you were saying. I'm an ol' lady sittin' with an older lady, knowing I will be there one day.....soon. 

Me and my bud Ronnie ain't old, we're like a fine wine...lol.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 4, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Man I'm glad I came across your re-explanation!
> I was about to save your life.  Don't wanna get Miss Mtnwoman on ya.
> 
> Mtnwoman and me aren't old, we just highly matured.



Lol...you're funny. Mtnwoman ain't playin...

Yep we're highly matured my bro!!! I'm sure I'm the oldest geezer though.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 4, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> At first I thought...hmmmm
> But quickly I understood what you were saying. I'm an ol' lady sittin' with an older lady, knowing I will be there one day.....soon.
> 
> Me and my bud Ronnie ain't old, we're like a fine wine...lol.



I'm glad that you understood and we got to have a tiny bit of fun at your expence!!


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 5, 2013)

Let's make an example. What if John the baptist would have tried to maintain his popularity. Instead of letting the "bride belong to the bridegroom". Instead of "he must become more, I must become less". Or "a student is not above his teacher" or "he  does  it not for the honor of the one who sent him, but for his own honor" or "they have ran ahead", picturistic of someone not following Moses but running his own way in the journey. Jesus being our Moses leading us out of bondage. This was what the devil did with God. He wanted not to serve but to rival God. The is what Miram and Aron did with Moses. And this is what some leaders are doing today. They are using the message to further their own worldly desires. Making themselves as famous. Stealing the bride of Christ. If you look back through the previous verses you will see things about "eyes full of adultery" and more. The picture here that is overlooked is that an OT familiar story, not to us but to the hearers, is that of Absolomon stealing his Fathers bride and sleeping with them in the streets for all to see. He would sit outside the city gates and as people entered he would woe them until he had stolen their hearts until he had built enough to overtake his fathers household. Then he stole his brides. Paul said "i promised you to one husband" Those who knew the way but returned to their vomit.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 5, 2013)

And now that they have led people astray, they  are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
They also knew better because they had escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Makes me wonder what fate awaits prophets, disciples, preachers, and teachers who steal God's thunder.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought about that and that is what makes a store manager a good manager. He has to be able to use common sense bend the rules when needed. Not just go by the store dogma.
> 
> I just didn't know we could bend the rules. We could probably ignore the Church "overly dogmatic spirits" but not the Biblical "overly dogmatic spirits." I guess at some point though we can ignore the scriptures and be more spiritual as Jesus was and less overly dogmatic like the Pharisees. It looks like a fine line though.



If anything, or in all things, we are to Jesus first and last...the rest is helpful and a hinderence depending on the season. Jesus first, Jesus the example first, and dogma falls naturally in the interactions we have with the individual and different persons we meet.


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## thedeacon (Mar 5, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> It is all yours...  Also, for what it's worth, deciples study and love people almost as  much as they love God... and that love is the kind of love Paul talks about... And i know you know this Ronnie T.




When I grow up I want to be just like you and RonnieT. RonnieT and I already have a mutual bond and maybe you don't know it but I have the same love for the mandolin that you do but above all that we share the love of and for God. I love what the two of you have posted here. Makes my heart happy and my face smile.

Thank you both.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 11, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> And now that they have led people astray, they  are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
> They also knew better because they had escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
> 
> Makes me wonder what fate awaits prophets, disciples, preachers, and teachers who steal God's thunder.



Forgiveness. It is very difficult for everyone to untangle(word?) what is not of God and what is. Everyone makes mistakes... some mistakes just tangle things even more the the original tangle or combine the two.

Take a look at how people view spiritual history for example. Many people see spiritual history as a the history of the individual in a world of politics. Many people see spiritual history as a social history, the individual in societies independent of politics.

These differences at first glance don't seem consequential, but if I attempt interactions ( assessments and interventions) from my christian faith, for example on P"peace in the middle east" all along doing according to my gifts because I believe they offer the best solutions---How I read history and current issues will fashion my response.

As a christian do I offer a political solution to the problems in the middle east re: peace or do I bring to it a social solution according to according to justice as informed by my faith?

At first this does not seem of grave consequence, until one realizes that the spiritual solution must come from the efforts of many...who themselves are devided on spiritual history.

Simply is our spiritual history about love, justice, peace, etc. or is it about the solutions politics bring to human suffering. How many times have your heard christians take sides in issues and dehumanize their enemy to the point of wishing him rubbed out on the face of the earth. Or disregarding ethnic cleansing, murder, deportation of peoples from their lands, as solutions to conflicts. These are political solutions, not solutions from people who cleave to the "notion" of loving your enemy--which is the view our faith prompts us to have. Yet we call ourselves to to Christ and saved even, and yet we entertain that it is ok to torture prisoners our enemies and disregard their suffering and condemn them as inhuman for doing the same thing to our allies or our kind.

Wasn't it Christ who said, " Give to Ceaser what is his and to God what is his." ( I'm not a bible scolar--I fly on faith.LOL)  Are the solutions of God  the solutions of politics in our world? Politics of shovel in the face until you stop, treats and war actions, and being wishy washy on justice and what is right in the name of security even...? Is this God's remedy, His plan for us, His will, His heart? No not even his intelect is this.

In Jeremiah God says to a remenant from Judah, "Listen, I am willing to repent concerning you. I am willing to change my mind about you. Quit your idols, say you wish to quit them, and I will make you live." And the remenant chose their idols!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In Christ let us not chose idols. Let us not chose the solutions of politics. If our enemies cry for justice, let us hear them as brothers weeping for help. If we do injustice to them, lets give reperations. If they do injustice, let's warn them and act with love, patience, etc...

Now this is the kicker!!!!!!!!!! What if you ally (allies) has chosen idols. What if the injustice they see is informed according to idols and many unclean things? What if your allies return a slap in the face with a slap in the face. Will you go to their side of the baricade, and whip even  what is to Christ with them? You know you have an Idol, that you  arelacking in grace, if you do.

So next time you have a talk with someone on issues of what is just and what is right... Listen to yourself and to others... what comes out of the mouth or the key board. Is your understanding of spiritual history the history of the individual and politics, a movement of isms or cys ( as in democracy), or is our spiritual history social...the continuing history of God's plan for all individuals in all societies?


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## gordon 2 (Mar 11, 2013)

thedeacon said:


> When I grow up I want to be just like you and RonnieT. RonnieT and I already have a mutual bond and maybe you don't know it but I have the same love for the mandolin that you do but above all that we share the love of and for God. I love what the two of you have posted here. Makes my heart happy and my face smile.
> 
> Thank you both.


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