# Jesus Fish



## JB0704 (Oct 6, 2011)

This kind-of came up in another thread, and it is a topic of interest to me, so I thought I would get y'alls thoughts on it.

The Jesus fish on business logos:

I typically avoid companies that use this and "Biblical names" like "Holly Roller Skating Rink" (just a fictional example off the top of my head).  There are a few reasons.  For now, I will avoid one of the primary reasons and ask about the other:

Is it right to use Jesus, or the Bible, to increase customer base, make a profit, etc? I am a capitalist, and agree we should all make as much as we can.  But as a Christian, is there an ethical line there?


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## rjcruiser (Oct 6, 2011)

I don't have a problem with it.  Usually, I try and avoid those biz' unless I know the person.

Dealt with a TV Repair co that the owner/operator had a bible verse on his voicemail.  That was the only person I've ever had to go to small claims court to get him to return money/parts that he owed me.


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## JB0704 (Oct 6, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Dealt with a TV Repair co that the owner/operator had a bible verse on his voicemail.  That was the only person I've ever had to go to small claims court to get him to return money/parts that he owed me.



That kind-of gets to my other point, the companies that use the Jesus logo are typically, in my experience, the most difficult to deal with.

But, is it ethical?  Putting the fish on your business card, etc., to reach a demographic?


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## formula1 (Oct 6, 2011)

*Re:*

I don't really care. If you do use it you should use it with an ultra high level of personal integrity and responsibility, as one who would have to answer to God for you actions. Anything else would be unacceptable.

The best job for the best price is good enough for me. That could mean someone who identifies themselves as a Christian or not!


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## JB0704 (Oct 6, 2011)

formula1 said:


> The best job for the best price is good enough for me. That could mean someone who identifies themselves as a Christian or not!



I see what you are saying, so it does not influence you to call?  But, is it ethical?  Using faith as a marketing tool?  I am just asking for opinions here, I know how I feel about it, but have no clue if that is correct....if that makes sense....


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## rjcruiser (Oct 6, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> But, is it ethical?  Putting the fish on your business card, etc., to reach a demographic?



I don't see why it would be unethical.

It is done all the time in advertising.  Just depends on the demographics of the area.  Commercials/billboards in LA are in Spanish.  Most in this area utilize black actors.  I'm sure most in North Dakota utilize english and white actors.

As in any marketing venture, you have to know your audience.


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## JB0704 (Oct 6, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I don't see why it would be unethical.
> 
> It is done all the time in advertising.  Just depends on the demographics of the area.  Commercials/billboards in LA are in Spanish.  Most in this area utilize black actors.  I'm sure most in North Dakota utilize english and white actors.
> 
> As in any marketing venture, you have to know your audience.



Good point, but can we lump faith in with language barriers?  I personally don't think so. It seems, well, tacky?  Kind-of like spiritual trademark infringement.....


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## Dana Young (Oct 6, 2011)

I don't think it is ethical at all and I won't use them just for that reason. I believe it is a ploy to try to increase business and dishoners GOD. most of the ones I see it on around here does not use GODLY principles in their business or their lives either for that matter.


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## JB0704 (Oct 6, 2011)

Dana Young said:


> most of the ones I see it on around here does not use GODLY principles in their business or their lives either for that matter.



I agree.  It seems like the companies that use it, not all of them, almost "show their hand" of dishonesty by using it.  I don't know exactly how to word it, but it seems as if, by it's nature, it is underhanded because it is such an obvious marketing ploy that uses something that is specifically free to sell to folks by appealing to their spiritual nature.  

Maybe I view it as a line we should not cross when trying to make a buck......


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## stringmusic (Oct 6, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I agree.  It seems like the companies that use it, not all of them, almost "show their hand" of dishonesty by using it.  I don't know exactly how to word it, but it seems as if, by it's nature, it is underhanded because it is such an obvious marketing ploy that uses something that is specifically free to sell to folks by appealing to their spiritual nature.
> 
> Maybe I view it as a line we should not cross when trying to make a buck......



I agree with this statement, it does stink for the people that have the fish logo on their business cards and actually show Christ in their personal lives as well as their business ethics.

If I ran my own company, I wouldn't have the fish on my cards, I prefer to _show_ people Christ in my life and how He can change theirs, not just a fish on a card.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 6, 2011)

In many cases I tend to think it's borderline unethical.
If someone puts "Jesus saved" on a business card, etc, it's one thing.  But if they use a verse of scripture as a way of convincing the public that they are honest, Im' a little suspecious.

If a person wants to share their Savior with a customer,(and we all should), do it as and after they do business with you.

When I go to my doctor I'm always impressed by a young lady who has her desk top crammed full of "Jesus" plaques.  But she isn't advertising her work, only her faith.


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## JB0704 (Oct 6, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> If I ran my own company, I wouldn't have the fish on my cards, I prefer to _show_ people Christ in my life and how He can change theirs, not just a fish on a card.



James 2:14-26.  I usually get clobbered over context, but I think this scripture reinforces your thoughts.

Maybe, that to put that out there is a statement, but the actions are what should be our evidence?


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## JB0704 (Oct 6, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> But if they use a verse of scripture as a way of convincing the public that they are honest, Im' a little suspecious.



That suspicion is my default reaction.



Ronnie T said:


> When I go to my doctor I'm always impressed by a young lady who has her desk top crammed full of "Jesus" plaques.  But she isn't advertising her work, only her faith.



I see your point.  

I guess my thought is that there are many out there who identify with Christians and feel more comfortable doing business with Christians (the whole unequally yoked thing).  I just think using the faith as advertisement takes advantage of the consumer's good intentions and or faith in other Christians.


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## stringmusic (Oct 6, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> James 2:14-26.  I usually get clobbered over context, but I think this scripture reinforces your thoughts.
> 
> Maybe, that to put that out there is a statement, but the actions are what should be our evidence?



Whew, its a good thing we are not having a discussion on those verses in the "other" forum.

Yes! Our actions(fruits) should be a huge piece of the evidence. Mathew 7 15-20 and 1 John 7-10.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2011)

I think it depends on the intention of the user. God knows where our heart is. I don't necessarily use a certain business because they use the fish.

I make glass beads using a torch and I always make jewelry out of those and other beads amongst many other things like hair bows, etc etc etc. I have a Jesus fish on my  business card that I send in with the orders I get on ebay or my other online store. I don't send tracts or anything like that, just my business card with what I offer and then a Jesus fish in faint water colors in the background.

I do that because I personally am convicted to do so....I used to be ashamed or embarrassed about being a Christian, especially when I was living on the downlow being a Christian sometimes just doesn't seem to be cool, which of course is from satan....but I'm proud to be a Christian now and still actually a pretty cool gal.


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## thedeacon (Oct 6, 2011)

If you use it you had better put forth the right example, God will not be slack if you purposely misrepresent him. Other than that I think it is ok.

You have to back up your talk especially when it comes to Jesus.  Always bring glory to God.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 6, 2011)

thedeacon said:


> If you use it you had better put forth the right example, God will not be slack if you purposely misrepresent him. Other than that I think it is ok.
> 
> You have to back up your talk especially when it comes to Jesus.  Always bring glory to God.



Our pastor told us to never put a NABC...north asheville bapt. church tag on the front of our car if we were are using sign language to another driver or have road rage..


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## JB0704 (Oct 6, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I make glass beads using a torch and I always make jewelry out of those and other beads amongst many other things like hair bows, etc etc etc. I have a Jesus fish on my  business card that I send in with the orders I get on ebay or my other online store. I don't send tracts or anything like that, just my business card with what I offer and then a Jesus fish in faint water colors in the background.
> 
> I do that because I personally am convicted to do so....I used to be ashamed or embarrassed about being a Christian, especially when I was living on the downlow being a Christian sometimes just doesn't seem to be cool, which of course is from satan....but I'm proud to be a Christian now and still actually a pretty cool gal.



On my commute home I thought about how I started this thread, and I probably should have pointed out that some folks are just happy about Jesus.  There are some good people out there who have the Jesus fish, and probably use it as a testimony.  Unfortunately, I tend to be very cynical about folks.

My wife for example, extremely simple faith, would probably put a Jesus fish on a business logo without thinking twice.  I don't think her motives would be bad.  She is just thrilled to be a believer.  She is the polar opposite of me as far as faith is concerned.

I guess what concerns me is when it is used as a marketing tool.  It doesn't "feel" right.  I don't know.....


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 6, 2011)

This has nothing to do with my business. Years ago, when I was more "religious", I had a fish with the word Jesus inside made about 15in long. I put one on my boat and my truck. My opinion of showing everyone what you believe has changed. But I can't bring myself to remove it. Almost like I was disowning Jesus or something. But my question is: Where does this fish come from? How did that ever start? Funny thing is that I did not know when I first put it on. That's religion for sure.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 7, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I guess what concerns me is when it is used as a marketing tool.  It doesn't "feel" right.  I don't know.....



Well don't worry about it.

In many of your posts I've noticed that you're worried about what other people do and their motive for doing such and such and why they do this or that. 

If it don't feel right to you, don't do it. We are not all convicted of the same things all the time.

Do you think I worry about what some of you do? like going hunting or fishing? or whatever you do? I could think well dang they need to be going to a nursing home, or helping out in the hood, or helping an elderly neighbor instead of enjoying themselves killing animals....but ya know I don't know whether or not you need food, or whether or not you need some alone time in the woods with God, or you need to destress, I can't judge you for what you do because I don't know why you do what you do. So I try to just worry about what I'm suppose to be doing and quit worrying about what I think others should be or not be doing.

I'm not trying to be mean, I really honestly think you worry too much about what others should or shouldn't be doing.
Spend that energy on what you and your family should or could be doing.

Blessings


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## SeanandBrice (Oct 7, 2011)

The first place I look for service providers is my church business directory. If there is nothing available there, I look for other sources. If I see a fish or any other logo indicating a follower of Christ, they get my first call. It doesn't automatically get them my business. I have had problems from other believers as much as non-believers. They're all people, and that's the problem. Being a Christian doesn't make them better people. It makes them forgiven people. I screw up all the time. But I also have discernment from my own study of scripture. Biblical ignorance is rampant today, even among believers, and many churches are failing at feeding the flock. When you study scripture, you can smell a biblically ignorant believer a mile away. When you live according to the Word and pray about your needs, you realize it's all Gods resources anyways. In other words, I don't worry so much about getting ripped off. I am not the provider.


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## JB0704 (Oct 7, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I'm not trying to be mean, I really honestly think you worry too much about what others should or shouldn't be doing.
> Spend that energy on what you and your family should or could be doing.



Not sure where you got that, I tend to be a live and let live type and usually only concern myself when folks start "pushing" on others with faith, theology, etc.  Particularly when they hurt folks with it.  As was the case in the "deal with the devil" thread.  Many, many good people were very hurt at that church.  There is a bunch of us "refugees" who left on account of all that happened which stemmed from the mentality behind the actions I discussed.

As far as the Jesus fish goes, honestly, there is no difference between this thread and a bunch of folks discussing their favorite Super Bowl commercial.

Thanks for your comments, but if the Jesus fish is used to advertise to me, I don't think I am out of line by discussing it with others.  The question was whether or not it was ethical to use Jesus as a marketing tool.  I believe it is valid.


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## JB0704 (Oct 7, 2011)

SeanandBrice said:


> The first place I look for service providers is my church business directory. If there is nothing available there, I look for other sources. If I see a fish or any other logo indicating a follower of Christ, they get my first call.



And that is your right as a consumer.  It also indicates that the company has marketed correctly by generating the call.  Which goes back to the question as to whether or not that is an ethical practice......would Jesus condone his name being used to generate business?

Let's not include those who are simply trying to give a testimony, but, unfortunately, they all get lumped in together by non-believers.


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## formula1 (Oct 7, 2011)

*Re:*



SeanandBrice said:


> When you live according to the Word and pray about your needs, you realize it's all Gods resources anyways.



Thank you! I appreciated your entire post, especially the excerpted part above! What you said underscores the most important part, we need to to quit thinking that the pastor or the teacher needs to study, to live, and to pray and take responsibility for our own relationship. And we can trust Him! 

To use my pastor's saying, 'when you read this book(the Bible), you hear His voice!' And He lives in you and through you! 

Apologies to the OP for the slight derail!


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## pnome (Oct 7, 2011)

I've got no problem with it.

There is a knifemaker on this site that uses the Christian fish symbol.  I've been drooling over some of his knives for a while.  The only thing that keeps me from them is the price.  Certainly isn't the logo.


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## JB0704 (Oct 7, 2011)

formula1 said:


> we need to to quit thinking that the pastor or the teacher needs to study, to live, and to pray and take responsibility for our own relationship. And we can trust Him!!



Him, being the pastor, or him being Jesus?  Often a congregant is left to the understanding that one is the same as the other.  For instance, a "head pastor" saying "This is the vision God gave me, so this is what God wants us, as a Church, to do."  If you disagree, you are then disagreeing with God, according to their logic. 



formula1 said:


> Apologies to the OP for the slight derail!



No apologies necessary.  

I think folks are wanting to look at it from one angle, but the angle I am trying to see, or understand, is whether or not Jesus would condone the faith being used to generate business?  It is an honest question.  Is there a scriptural reference?  I know he wasn't a fan of the temple being used as a market, but is that really applicable?


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## JB0704 (Oct 7, 2011)

pnome said:


> I've got no problem with it.
> 
> There is a knifemaker on this site that uses the Christian fish symbol.  I've been drooling over some of his knives for a while.  The only thing that keeps me from them is the price.  Certainly isn't the logo.



Ok, as a non-believer I would assume it does not really matter because there is no principle to be upheld. That makes sense.


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## JB0704 (Oct 7, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Well don't worry about it.



Oh, MW, I have seen a lot of people get hurt in the name of Jesus because nobody "worried" about things.  If it wasn't them personally, then there was no reason to be concerned.  I am not trying to be difficult, but that is a topic of great interest to me.


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## formula1 (Oct 7, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Him, being the pastor, or him being Jesus?  Often a congregant is left to the understanding that one is the same as the other.  For instance, a "head pastor" saying "This is the vision God gave me, so this is what God wants us, as a Church, to do."  If you disagree, you are then disagreeing with God, according to their logic.



Him is capitalized in my post, meaning Jesus. 

I've been in the midst of what you are speaking of! 

1) If the head pastor cannot justify his words by the written Word of God, he's prophetic word is in vain as it is said by his own authority. Twisting scriptures can be easily done to lead those astray who do not study it.
2) The congregant has a responsibility to 'test the spirits' or the word that the pastor is speaking. They cannot do that if they do not know God's Word.
3) No leader is an island unto himself.  He must be held accountable.

This is exactly why some churches have failed miserably and many people have fallen away(i.e. the foundation was in sandy soil).  The Word of God is the solid ground of safety.  We must know it as believers! God bless!


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## JB0704 (Oct 7, 2011)

formula1 said:


> Him is capitalized in my post, meaning Jesus.


 
Oh, I missed that, sorry.



formula1 said:


> 1) If the head pastor cannot justify his words by the written Word of God, he's prophetic word is in vain as it is said by his own authority. Twisting scriptures can be easily done to lead those astray who do not study it.
> 2) The congregant has a responsibility to 'test the spirits' or the word that the pastor is speaking. They cannot do that if they do not know God's Word.
> 3) No leader is an island unto himself.  He must be held accountable.
> 
> This is exactly why some churches have failed miserably and many people have fallen away(i.e. the foundation was in sandy soil).  The Word of God is the solid ground of safety.



I agree with your thoughts here, but to stand up for what is right, you are only left with the choice you listed in the last paragraph.....falling away, because the way it is framed, you are not disagreeing with the pastor, you are disagreeing with God, and God put the pastor in charge, so you must find another pastor because you are not on board with God's appointed, at least that is what they say....then what next at the next "Church home?"  Same 'ol story.  

My last church experience taught me a lesson: the Bible can mean whatever people want it to mean.  I am sure you know of as many examples of people twisting the Bible as I can.  But, those of us who worry about things are left without a home, because we are not allowed to dissent, that is against the principle of unity, even when dissent is "behind closed doors," as was always the case, I am not one to stir the pot in Church.  I have seen all of this happen to myself, and many others.  To the point of where we only had the one option left.......

It is sad.


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## formula1 (Oct 7, 2011)

*Re:*

For me it is a little different, in that I recognize the need for God's church to be successful and thrive, for the people thrive as Christ is lifted up. This is the given standard of scripture that I accept!

I tend to fight my battles on my knees.  I would never leave a church because of a pastor unless God impressed upon me by the Spirit to do so (this has only happened once in my life and I didn't want to do it then, God literally rocked my world to cause me to leave). I would stay and pray for the pastor and love and serve the people for this is the will of God. In time, I would typically hope that God deals with the issues at hand.

Just because your dissent seems to place you (and others) on an island, particularly if it is vocalized as you say(privately), doesn't mean God doesn't have a place for you where you can thrive, where you scriptural foundation can be realized and appreciated and used for His Glory. By removing yourself, haven't you said 'self' is more important that where God chooses to plant you? Sorry for the hard question, yet I mean it in Love!

I don't think you realize just how similar your experience and my own are. I did not wake up and see the worth of asking and answering that same question I just asked you for 8 years!

This is what I know, God has a place for you, to plant you, to love and to serve others for His glory, and to no longer fear leadership, but embrace them as they embrace the Truth of God's word. What I just said, at one point I thought it was impossible!  My heavenly loving Father showed me otherwise though and I am grateful. And for you, faith and trust will take time too. God is extremely patient and He loves you deeply.  I am confident you will find exactly what you need! When what you need meets what He wants, you will be at peace in your heart! God Bless!


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## JB0704 (Oct 7, 2011)

Thanks F1.  I appreciate your thoughts.  I am willing to discuss in a different thread, and intended to start one last week about this, but I was worried about being accused of pulling folks away from church, and I didn't want to deal with some of the "in your face" stuff that happens sometimes on this forum, (not directed at you). 

You ask a good question, and I will start a thread on it soon, I just don't want folks to get mad if I do not eventually change my position.  I am not against God.


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## sea trout (Oct 7, 2011)

i was watchin religious tv one night. and the guy with the accent said he had knowledge of information that everybody needed to know!! but you had to buy the dvd???


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## SeanandBrice (Oct 7, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I think folks are wanting to look at it from one angle, but the angle I am trying to see, or understand, is whether or not Jesus would condone the faith being used to generate business?  It is an honest question.  Is there a scriptural reference?  I know he wasn't a fan of the temple being used as a market, but is that really applicable?



This is two different things. Jesus anger toward the actions of the merchants at the temple was due to where they were set up and what they were doing. It was about the treatment of the gentiles, not the fact that people were conducting business. The merchants were set up in the area that was set aside for non-Israelites (gentiles) to worship. It's a deep theological subject that needs to be studied in proper context. It's frequently misunderstood. To answer your question about what Scripture says about this, (and THAT is a great question!)Acts 4:32-37 teaches believers that they should share among other believers. We are instructed to take care of one another, as in "the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own." I won't go too far into it, but suffice it to say that all through Scripture we believers are instructed to take care of one another. Don't confuse that with communism, because Scripture also says "A man who will not work does not deserve to eat." In economics, you have a term called "traditional economies". It's natural for people to want to buy something "Made In America", for lots of varying but obvious and valid reasons. If your air conditioner breaks, and your father is an HVAC repair man, you'd call him first. That's an example of traditional economics.  Christians doing business with other Christians is another example of "traditional economy". Christians are spread all over the planet, and you can't identify a fellow believer by looking at them. Symbology is one way we identify with each other.  The Ixoye symbol (fish symbol) is an ancient symbol, used for this very reason from the beginning. In times of persecution against Christians, it served as a secret way to identify one another. It's found on tombs of the earliest believers, for preservation of ancestral heritage. It's simple and very effective. Using it on a business card is a great idea. Now, to address the other reason people use it: To give a false impression of being a believer for the purpose of marketing. Well, common sense says this is wrong. I have seen many many many fake "Gibson" guitars with the "Made In America" impression on the headstock. In fact, they are made in Asian countries, and are legally imported by knowing buyers. They are also sold as the real thing by criminals. Unless someone knew what one was looking for, one could be easily fooled by these knock-offs. I happen to have knowledge about Gibson serial numbers, construction techniques, wiring practices, and specific parts used. I can look at a gibson and tell if it's real or fake. I can tell because I've read books, repaired and restored Gibsons, and rewired many pick-ups. If you saw someone with the bone collecter symbol on the back window of their pick-up, you would probably assume they are a hunter. They might just want to give the impression that they hunt, they might just like the show, or they might have bought the truck with the symbol already on it. You, assuming you are a hunter, would be able to identify whether they were a hunter or not in a few minutes of conversation from your experience as a hunter (unless they're lying). It's the same with fellow believers. Sometimes the fish symbol doesn't mean what it is supposed to mean. Some people using the symbol are actual believers that don't study the Bible. Some are believers doing contrary to what is right. Some aren't believers at all, but think they are. There are LOTS of those (Matthew 7:23)! Some are faking it to make a buck. Someone who lives according to the word can usually identify the imposters. If not, it doesn't matter. We can discern, but we can't see into someone's heart. It's not our place to judge. The One who knows what's in every heart will take care of that.  So the simple answer, in my humble opinion, to your questions is this: Is it unethical or unscriptural to use the Ixoye symbol in advertising? No, it's a great way to identify yourself to other believers. Is it unethical to use the Ixoye symbol for the wrong reasons? Yes, of course.


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## JB0704 (Oct 7, 2011)

SeanandBrice said:


> Acts 4:32-37 teaches believers that they should share among other believers. We are instructed to take care of one another, as in "the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own." I won't go too far into it, but suffice it to say that all through Scripture we believers are instructed to take care of one another.



That's a good scriptural defense.  I had always considered this verse in reference to sharing possessions life food and shelter, not in commerce.  I also believe it is an example of a commune, but the members were voluntary, nobody was forced into it.  Good thoughts!



SeanandBrice said:


> Well, common sense says this is wrong. I have seen many many many fake "Gibson" guitars with the "Made In America" impression on the headstock. In fact, they are made in Asian countries, and are legally imported by knowing buyers. They are also sold as the real thing by criminals. Unless someone knew what one was looking for, one could be easily fooled by these knock-offs. I happen to have knowledge about Gibson serial numbers, construction techniques, wiring practices, and specific parts used. I can look at a gibson and tell if it's real or fake. I can tell because I've read books, repaired and restored Gibsons, and rewired many pick-ups. If you saw someone with the bone collecter symbol on the back window of their pick-up, you would probably assume they are a hunter. They might just want to give the impression that they hunt, they might just like the show, or they might have bought the truck with the symbol already on it. You, assuming you are a hunter, would be able to identify whether they were a hunter or not in a few minutes of conversation from your experience as a hunter (unless they're lying). It's the same with fellow believers. Sometimes the fish symbol doesn't mean what it is supposed to mean. Some people using the symbol are actual believers that don't study the Bible. Some are believers doing contrary to what is right. Some aren't believers at all, but think they are. There are LOTS of those (Matthew 7:23)! Some are faking it to make a buck. Someone who lives according to the word can usually identify the imposters. If not, it doesn't matter. We can discern, but we can't see into someone's heart. It's not our place to judge. The One who knows what's in every heart will take care of that.  So the simple answer, in my humble opinion, to your questions is this: Is it unethical or unscriptural to use the Ixoye symbol in advertising? No, it's a great way to identify yourself to other believers. Is it unethical to use the Ixoye symbol for the wrong reasons? Yes, of course.



Best defense I have heard so far of the use of the symbol. 

I guess, as a very cynical person, I assume the worst about folks until I learn otherwise.  So, at first glance, I had never really given the person with the Jesus fish on his business card a chance.  As of now, I am feeling a bit guilty about the way I looked at it.  

I do believe it is often used as a way to market to folks.  I have relatives that, as soon as they hear somebody is a Christian, like an athlete or a celebrity, automatically become fans.  This carries on to their shopping, where they will go to the business with the Jesus fish.  I guess I had always considered the use of it as a way of taking advantage of folks' good intentions.  

Thanks for taking the time to type all of that!  Very interesting.....


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## mtnwoman (Oct 8, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Not sure where you got that, I tend to be a live and let live type and usually only concern myself when folks start "pushing" on others with faith, theology, etc.  Particularly when they hurt folks with it.  As was the case in the "deal with the devil" thread.  Many, many good people were very hurt at that church.  There is a bunch of us "refugees" who left on account of all that happened which stemmed from the mentality behind the actions I discussed.
> 
> As far as the Jesus fish goes, honestly, there is no difference between this thread and a bunch of folks discussing their favorite Super Bowl commercial.
> 
> Thanks for your comments, but if the Jesus fish is used to advertise to me, I don't think I am out of line by discussing it with others.  The question was whether or not it was ethical to use Jesus as a marketing tool.  I believe it is valid.



I'm sorry I didn't mean to come across as critical, I, at one time, had all the same questions and or thought processes that you have.  I finally came to the conclusion that most of it is something that I'll never be able to rationalize at least on a 'human' basis.  I just trust that God is in control and without worry and stress over it, I've found joy, which was a goal I've had most of my life....just to have joy and peace and know that my God has it under control...and try to spread that joy and peace to others rather than being a worrier of why this or why that.


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## SeanandBrice (Oct 8, 2011)

So tell me please...what is the "primary reason" you were talking abou? My curiosity has gotten the best of me.


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## THREEJAYS (Oct 8, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I agree with this statement, it does stink for the people that have the fish logo on their business cards and actually show Christ in their personal lives as well as their business ethics.
> 
> If I ran my own company, I wouldn't have the fish on my cards, I prefer to _show_ people Christ in my life and how He can change theirs, not just a fish on a card.



Kinda my thoughts,we are told we will know each other by our love.I usually can tell pretty quick one on one whether a person has any reguard for Christ.



mtnwoman said:


> I think it depends on the intention of the user. God knows where our heart is. I don't necessarily use a certain business because they use the fish.
> 
> I make glass beads using a torch and I always make jewelry out of those and other beads amongst many other things like hair bows, etc etc etc. I have a Jesus fish on my  business card that I send in with the orders I get on ebay or my other online store. I don't send tracts or anything like that, just my business card with what I offer and then a Jesus fish in faint water colors in the background.
> 
> I do that because I personally am convicted to do so....I used to be ashamed or embarrassed about being a Christian, especially when I was living on the downlow being a Christian sometimes just doesn't seem to be cool, which of course is from satan....but I'm proud to be a Christian now and still actually a pretty cool gal.



I also see your point and do agree if it's right for you then theres no reason not to have it.I do like your suttle aproach.


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## Oldstick (Oct 9, 2011)

It's not unethical IMO, any more than anything else in the advertising world is.  I ignore it myself, just like I pretty much ignore anything else said or claimed in any business advertisment.

By now, we should all be pretty much conditioned to disbelieve anything in an advertisment until we have seen and verified it's truth at least through word of mouth or such.


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## JB0704 (Oct 9, 2011)

SeanandBrice said:


> So tell me please...what is the "primary reason" you were talking abou? My curiosity has gotten the best of me.



I don't want to be seen as bashing the faith, but in my experience, it is the "Christian" companies which are the hardest to deal with, and the ones which will be dishonest with me.  I can give a few examples, but do not see it as necessary.  I always linked the two together, unethical advertising (which I still think it is if the fish is simply an effort to get those who immediately trust any other Christian to use one's product) with unethical business practice.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 9, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I don't want to be seen as bashing the faith, but in my experience, it is the "Christian" companies which are the hardest to deal with, and the ones which will be dishonest with me.  I can give a few examples, but do not see it as necessary.  I always linked the two together, unethical advertising (which I still think it is if the fish is simply an effort to get those who immediately trust any other Christian to use one's product) with unethical business practice.



Or perhaps it was just an unethical unsaved person pretending to be a Christian by "false" advertizing.  Ya know satan is a liar and a thief...well I mean I know that.

Sorry for your bad luck with businesses though. I only have a hard time with the cellphone companies and used car salesmen. I try to check companies out before I do get hoodooed by them...in 60 years I've been fortunate not to get ripped off very many times.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 9, 2011)

Oldstick said:


> By now, we should all be pretty much conditioned to disbelieve anything in an advertisment until we have seen and verified it's truth at least through word of mouth or such.



Great advice!!


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## JB0704 (Oct 10, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Or perhaps it was just an unethical unsaved person pretending to be a Christian by "false" advertizing.  Ya know satan is a liar and a thief...well I mean I know that.



Could be, but that would kind-of reinforce my initial hesitance, wouldn't it?



mtnwoman said:


> Sorry for your bad luck with businesses though. I only have a hard time with the cellphone companies and used car salesmen. I try to check companies out before I do get hoodooed by them...in 60 years I've been fortunate not to get ripped off very many times.



My bad experiences have been with contractors and mechanics.  I am not so good about doing a lot of research in those areas.


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## gtparts (Oct 10, 2011)

The "fish" symbol only causes me to want to do business with that person or organization, but we are called on to be wise and, clearly, appropriating a religious symbol that is neither copyrighted nor registered is so superficial and easy as to be near meaningless. If I do my due diligence, checking references, etc., I have done something to help protect what God has entrusted to me, from unscrupulous sellers. Selecting a person or company to provide merchandise or services in a ethical manner, based only on a symbol, IMHO, is just foolish.

One of the simple truths of doing repeat business is that sooner or later one party will disappoint the other. If the relationship is strong and an equitable solution is arrived at, the relationship typically survives. If the issue is not brought to light, the relationship is most often doomed and, if no good solution is found to please both parties, well..... you have your answer.

Would I use such a symbol? 
No. Doing so might hamper my witness, in that the expected standards might not be met, bringing reproach to Christ through my action or inaction. Providing consistently excellent quality of goods or services is one of the most difficult aspects of operating a business. Some might exclude themselves from my prospective customer base simply because of the symbol, causing me to lose business and the opportunity to be a witness to who Jesus is. 

In today's culture, it just doesn't make sense to limit ones opportunities by thinking that intelligent people would choose to grant us a window to pitch our goods or services based on a symbol of questionable merit. Far too many people have sought advantage by misrepresenting their character through the use of the "fish" symbol.


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## SeanandBrice (Oct 10, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> My bad experiences have been with contractors and mechanics.  I am not so good about doing a lot of research in those areas.



Have you tried Patton's on 92 heading towards Hiram for your mechanic needs? I don't know him personally but have had really good experiences with his service. He does have some references to scripture hanging in the lobby too.


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## JB0704 (Oct 10, 2011)

SeanandBrice said:


> Have you tried Patton's on 92 heading towards Hiram for your mechanic needs? I don't know him personally but have had really good experiences with his service. He does have some references to scripture hanging in the lobby too.



Have not tried them.  Actually, never noticed them, I might give them a shot. Are they north or south of Hiram? Thanks for the reference.  I have 3 vehicles, and always have problems with them, but, unfortunately, I am not a very good mechanic.  I change the oil, and that's about it.


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## SeanandBrice (Oct 12, 2011)

North of Hiram. If your coming from 120 on 92 you will see them on the left before you get to 278.


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