# Jehovah Witnesses



## Foxfire (Apr 18, 2019)

Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses, 630 Gibbs Road, Evans, Georgia 30809.
Sent my wife a pamphlet.
My Question: Where did they get my address?

Foxfire/Y2KZ71


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## Gator89 (Apr 18, 2019)

The interwebz...


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## Gator89 (Apr 18, 2019)




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## Milkman (Apr 18, 2019)

Q public has Property you own, mailing address, etc.


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## Madman (Apr 18, 2019)

They tapped into your smart TV.


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## j_seph (Apr 18, 2019)

Foxfire said:


> Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses, 630 Gibbs Road, Evans, Georgia 30809.
> Sent my wife a pamphlet.
> My Question: Where did they get my address?
> 
> Foxfire/Y2KZ71


Send them back a KJV bible


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## Gator89 (Apr 18, 2019)

Madman said:


> They tapped into your smart TV.


Or the electric meter.


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## Madman (Apr 18, 2019)

Or your smart phone


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## kmh1031 (Apr 21, 2019)

Address lists for neighborhoods, is a simple list that can be bought, or found on internet.


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## kmh1031 (Apr 21, 2019)

Why a KJV? Great bible, and literary work of art.. but there are many great versions, translations of the Bible also,


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## Madman (Apr 22, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> Why a KJV? Great bible, and literary work of art.. but there are many great versions, translations of the Bible also,


JW recognize KJV as an authorized version for their use.  It does not have the later changes they made.

As where John says, "The Word was with God and was God", they changed the translation to "The Word was with God and was A God"


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## kmh1031 (Apr 22, 2019)

Well doesn’t that agree with John 1:18?

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared _him_.

Since Jesus was seen can he be almighty God also?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 23, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> Well doesn’t that agree with John 1:18?
> 
> No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared _him_.
> 
> Since Jesus was seen can he be almighty God also?



What does it mean to be in the bosom of the Father? Also, when you think about it no one can see a spirit. God being spirit, I don't see how anyone can ever see God. Maybe it's not literal as with eyes but perhaps "spiritually?"


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## kmh1031 (Apr 23, 2019)

In an illustration, Jesus spoke of a beggar named Lazarus who was carried at his death to “the bosom position of Abraham,” and John refers to Jesus as being in “the bosom position with the Father.” 

 The expression “bosom position” alludes to one’s reclining in front of another person on the same couch at a meal.

John, in describing the very special position of favor enjoyed by Jesus, said that he was in “the bosom position” of his Father.

As far as seeing god I think you are right.
As “no man has seeen god and lived”
But we can learn about him, his qualities 
Love, justice, wisdom, power and more
We do that through our study of the Bible


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## Jack Ryan (Apr 23, 2019)

Foxfire said:


> Kingdom Hall of Jehovah's Witnesses, 630 Gibbs Road, Evans, Georgia 30809.
> Sent my wife a pamphlet.
> My Question: Where did they get my address?
> 
> Foxfire/Y2KZ71


The phone book.

The front of your house with those numbers on it.


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## Madman (Apr 24, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> Well doesn’t that agree with John 1:18?
> 
> No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared _him_.
> 
> Since Jesus was seen can he be almighty God also?



Not if you are a trinitarian, believe what Scripture has said and what the church has taught for 2000 years.

If you want to believe in multiple gods, so be it.


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## kmh1031 (Apr 24, 2019)

And you are exactly right!
There is only one True Almighty God Ps 83-18) even though many make out that there are 3 in 1
Or other religions have thousands


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## j_seph (Apr 24, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> Why a KJV? Great bible, and literary work of art.. but there are many great versions, translations of the Bible also,





> 1. K.J.V. John 5:4, "For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had." Compare to,
> 
> N.W.T. I can't find the verse, its gone, only the number 4 remains.
> 
> ...


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 24, 2019)

Madman said:


> JW recognize KJV as an authorized version for their use.  It does not have the later changes they made.
> 
> As where John says, "The Word was with God and was God", they changed the translation to "The Word was with God and was A God"



It doesn't bother me in the least if it is interpreted 'was with God, and was God' or 'was a God'.

What inquiring minds want to know is this.  Is the Word a true God, or a false God?


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## kmh1031 (Apr 24, 2019)

Detailed Research will help with many many discrepancies. 

For one there is a lot of accurate information out today based on archeological finds that we’re not available 500 years ago

Many transcripts have been discovered since the writing of the KJV ( Dead Sea scrolls) and others that shed light on the entire bible and also correction.
For example;
It is noteworthy that John 5:4, which said that an angel disturbed the water, is not found in highly regarded ancient Greek manuscripts, such as the fourth-century Codex Sinaiticus

At Bethzatha, however, Jesus cured a man who had been sick for 38 years. Without even entering the pool, the man was instantly healed.

Based on those master texts, it is evident that some verses of the Greek Scriptures found in older translations, such as the _King James Version, _were actually additions made by later copyists and were never part of the inspired Scriptures. 
However, because the verse division generally accepted in Bible translations was already established in the 16th century, the omission of these verses now creates gaps in the verse numbering in most Bibles.

 Mark 7:16; The verses are Matthew 17:21; 18:11; 23:14; Mark 7:16;9:44, 46; 11:26; 15:28; Luke 17:36; 23:17; John 5:4;Acts 8:37; 15:34; 24:7; 28:29; and Romans 16:24. 
In revised editions those omitted verses are indicated by a footnote at the location of the omission.

Regarding the long conclusion for Mark 16 (verses 9-20), the short conclusion for Mark 16, and the wording found at John 7:53–8:11, research shows, and newly found scrolls show  that none of these verses were included in the original manuscripts.

Just a few examples of why verses may be omitted...  new information, more accurate scrolls,


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## kmh1031 (Apr 24, 2019)

J_Seph,
Again 
Thorough research is your friend on many of the scriptures you noted the NWT Eliminated:
*Acts 8:37*
Some later Greek manuscripts and some ancient translations into other languages, with slight variations in wording, add:
 “Philip said to him: ‘If you believe with all your heart, it is permissible.’ In reply he said: ‘I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.’” 

However, these words do not appear in the earliest and most reliable manuscripts and are most likely not part of the original text of Acts.

Should they be in there IF not in many of the original manuscripts? 

You don’t have to take my word for it... simply do your own research


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 24, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> It doesn't bother me in the least if it is interpreted 'was with God, and was God' or 'was a God'.
> 
> What inquiring minds want to know is this.  Is the Word a true God, or a false God?



gee. I guess my question doesn't deserve an answer


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 25, 2019)

Interesting is that the "Word" was with God. So the Word was with God and "was" God.

Why don't Oneness believers get the beef that JW's and Unitarians do?

Oneness see the Word as Logos or the mind of God or God's thoughts/words. The Son was only with God and was God, only in Word. This one and only God "became" the Son. The Son "became" the one and only God.  He wasn't just a pre-existing part of God. He "was" God. He became God at his physical incarnation. The one and only God.

Maybe Trinitarians can deal with that concept easier than the JW or Unitarian views.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 25, 2019)

Still though it appears the Father talked to the Son from the beginning. Like they both pre-existed in some "out of time" way, as time had not been created yet.
I still can't wrap my mind around a spirit Father talking to his spirit Son, who is actually himself. Then that part of God becoming a human who is even farther from who he was because he then picks up the spirit of a man. This spirit being completely different from who he was or is. The Son, now back in Heaven, is human, picking up a human spirit in the process.

Neither or none are an easy concept. I think it just makes us accept the concept we were raised with and look at the other concepts as wrong.


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## kmh1031 (Apr 25, 2019)

Great response Art...and the fact that many of us (myself included) have been taught, training, other teachings, may make us resistant to hearing a different understanding. 

Regarding Jesus, God, 
Christian religion “in its three classic forms of Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism acknowledges one God in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
Thus according to Christian theology, this acknowledgment is not a recognition of three gods but that these three persons are essentially one.”   _The New Encyclopædia Britannica._
But what does the Bible and Jesus say? IN many places in the bible it shows Jesus and God as separate beings. Note just a few:

Matt 20:23 Jesus cannot do it as the decision is his fathers
At Mark 13:32, Jesus Christ said: “But of that day or that hour [of God’s coming execution of judgment] _no one knows, _not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but _only_ _the_ _Father.”_
_(IF they were one…would they all 3 not know the day and time?)_
Psalms 110:1 LORD said to my Lord? Who is talking to who? Review the original translation for the answer
Luke 22:29 I make a covenant with you, just like my father has made a covenant with me for the kingdom
1 john 4:14 the *father* sent his son as savior of the world
John 2:16 stop making the house of *my father* the house of commerce
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1 Cor 15:28 shows that Jesus will subject himself to God…Equal? Not according to this scripture.
Jesus, the Son of God, never claimed to be equal to or of the same substance as his Father. Rather, he said: “I am going my way to the Father, because the Father is greater than I am.” John 14:28. 

Jesus also told one of his followers at John 20:17: “I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.”

What about the Holy Spirit? The bible clearly shows is *not* a person or being, or third part of the Trinity.

Early Christians “became _filled _with holy spirit,” and at Acts 2:1-4 & 17:  God said: “I shall _pour out _some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh.”

So the holy spirit is not part of a Trinity but is God’s active force.  Is any of this important? Does it really matter?

So the next point to discuss, is can you really love someone who is impossible to know or understand?
Ask any Christian who believes in the Trinity to explain it, and many, even here have a hard time doing so, and also you may get different answers on it.
The doctrine of the Trinity, is not scriptural and is a barrier to knowing and loving God.

The bible teaches us at 1 Cor 14:33, that God is not a God of confusion.” ((_American Standard Version_) 
He has not hidden his identity from us.
He wants us to know him. Jesus said at John 4:22: “We worship what we know.”

Just providing this info as food for thought, and if you believe otherwise, that is fine too, Like the Apostle Paul, who gave a sermon to the "unknown Greek God," I just post here to present other ideas...


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 25, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> Great response Art...and the fact that many of us (myself included) have been taught, training, other teachings, may make us resistant to hearing a different understanding.
> 
> Regarding Jesus, God,
> Christian religion “in its three classic forms of Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism acknowledges one God in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit.
> ...



 I think you can love God because he first loved you. God is the one who draws one to the Son. Regardless of how we see this, salvation is still of the Lord. By trying to say your way is the only way, it puts you in the same boat as the Trinity and Oneness believers. 

It's the Unity of the Oneness that we don't understand. The salvation part, most of us understand. We don't have to believe Jesus is anything other than God's Son. It matters not to God whom he calls. 

So you can believe the Son is 1/3rd of the always being Godhead, The oneness af the Father incarnate, the adopted Son of God, or Michael, matters not. If God has bestowed His calling on you, and you believe Jesus died for your sins, then that gift of salvation is yours.

I would think that most new people called by God out of the small villages and islands, no very little about whether the Trinity way, the Oneness way, or any other way is correct. They only know Jesus died for their sins.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 25, 2019)

I once thought that when God elects someone he bestows upon them the knowledge of exactly how the unity of Him is with His son, and myself.  I thought that God had revealed to me by revelation which way is true.
I now know that is wrong. I don't think we'll be able to understand that unity and oneness until Jesus returns and we see Jesus as he is and become like him. Jesus did want his disciples to share the unity that he shared with his Father.

I would agree that his Father is our Father and his God is our God. In that respect, we will eventually share some part of that unity. Exactly what that means hasn't been revealed to me either.


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## j_seph (Apr 25, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> J_Seph,
> Again
> Thorough research is your friend on many of the scriptures you noted the NWT Eliminated:
> *Acts 8:37*
> ...


I actually quoted what I had seen on a website. I have actually never sat down and dug deep. However in the 1568 Bishops Bible John 3:16 reads

 For God so loued the worlde, that he gaue his only begotten sonne, that whosoeuer beleueth in hym, shoulde not perishe, but haue euerlastyng lyfe.

Just seems to me if the KJV reads pretty much identical to the 1568 which states "Only Begotten" not his only son and the bible also states we are children of God which would be contradicting to these other versions.

NIV
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
NLT
For this is how God loved the world: He gave[a] his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 
LEB
 For in this way God loved the world, so that he gave his one and only Son, in order that everyone who believes in him will not perish, but will have eternal life. 
NCV
God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son so that whoever believes in him may not be lost, but have eternal life.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 30, 2019)

Just for what it's worth, there's not ONE, ONE, credible Greek Scholar who would state that the JW translation is an accurate one. 

I really enjoy it when they and the Mormons visit.  I treat them with kindness just as if they were family, even sending them home with preserves and other home-made goodies.   They bring up their points and I counter them with the facts they are not aware of regarding the fallacies of their beliefs.  It must have been very effective.  I actually had the Bishop of the local Mormon Church visit me after hosting two of his missionaries, sending them packing with some peach preserves, spiced apples and honey from our hive, and inviting them back to watch a college football game over a bible study.  He said he would see to it that I was never bothered again by Mormon Missionaries and sadly I haven't been.  That's been 5 years ago.


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## kmh1031 (May 30, 2019)

Simper Fi Dawg.

Interesting comment about Greek Scholars... although I don’t agree as many have commented positively on the NWT and I’m sure you can find those that say the opposite. 

Truth is, if a “man” is rightly disposed for the truth, he can find Accurate Knowledge in any version of the Bible.

What version of the Bible then do you believe to be the most accurate then.?


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## SemperFiDawg (May 31, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> Simper Fi Dawg.
> 
> Interesting comment about Greek Scholars... although I don’t agree as many have commented positively on the NWT and I’m sure you can find those that say the opposite.
> 
> ...



I’ll stand by my statement.  Most translations are accurate in that their goal is to MAINTAIN the original meaning.  The NWT is the only version I’m aware which was translated with the specific purpose of CHANGING the meaning, and they did.  It was changed to conform to CTRs teachings.  Those facts are not debatable.


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## kmh1031 (May 31, 2019)

I understand your comment and belief
Regarding changing...Any idea or comment on why 90% of translations today have removed Gods original name: YHWH, (English letters) Jehovah in English
When it was in the Bible/manuscripts over 7000 times? 
Ps 83:18 in many bibles still today.
Apparently God wanted his name known?

Looking back at mNy bibles before the 1900s it was in a majority of them. Not many today although some KVV are restoring it.

In many it is only referenced with LORD and Jesus is lord.
For instance look at Ps110:1
“The LORD said to my lord”
Doesn’t make senE that way.
So on the change point... that is a major change to leave Gods name out.


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## Artfuldodger (May 31, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I’ll stand by my statement.  Most translations are accurate in that their goal is to MAINTAIN the original meaning.  The NWT is the only version I’m aware which was translated with the specific purpose of CHANGING the meaning, and they did.  It was changed to conform to CTRs teachings.  Those facts are not debatable.



Please explain what a CTR is. Thanks


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## SemperFiDawg (May 31, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> I understand your comment and belief
> Regarding changing...Any idea or comment on why 90% of translations today have removed Gods original name: YHWH, (English letters) Jehovah in English
> When it was in the Bible/manuscripts over 7000 times?
> Ps 83:18 in many bibles still today.
> ...



Just curious.  Do you think a God who sacrificed his son to forgive even the most heinous sins of a repentant sinner is gonna balk because that man mispronounced his name.  God sees a mans heart.  Don’t let legalism, rituals, and hair splitting blind you to seeing His.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 31, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Please explain what a CTR is. Thanks



Charles Taze Russel


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## kmh1031 (May 31, 2019)

the miss pronunciation of his name is not the issue. 
That has been lost... 
It is the complete
 removal of his name from the Bible and not recognizing him as the Almighty God. ps 83;18
Also Note Pro 18:10
Look at many translations and you will find perhaps Jehovah.
“ The name of Jehovah is a strong Tower and into it the righteous run and is given protection.”

So if we are calling on the wrong name will we be given protection?

It is NOT by accident that his name hs been removed from the Bible to cause billions to focus elsewhere. 
Did not Jesus himself say... “I have made your name known”?
If it was not important why would Jesus say that?
Also is that not the 2nd line on the Lord’s Prayer?? 
Not important? I think it is.. Jesus thought so. 
Who do we pray to? Who did Jesus pray to? 
Who sent him?

It is not a simple oh well that is not important... 

So back to the original post... changing the Bible? 
We have restored Gods name in the 7000 places while others have removed it..

And many more corrections based on new found Scrolls accredited by many archeological experts

Your call... just pointing out a few things to consider


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 3, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> the miss pronunciation of his name is not the issue.
> That has been lost...
> It is the complete
> removal of his name from the Bible and not recognizing him as the Almighty God. ps 83;18
> ...



This is the biggest fallacy people fall for when it comes to God; thinking they can do something good enough to impress God, to earn their salvation.  It's a sure sign in anyone that they have missed the entire purpose of Christ.  JW are known to preach works based salvation among their other misgivings.  Tell me Brother, do you think God respects your spelling and pronunciation skills, or the spirit of your heart toward him and your fellow man.  I'm afraid you are badly mistaken in your hair splitting views.  May I humbly suggest you do yourself a favor and talk to some mainline Protestant preachers, Baptist, Methodist, COG etc. not on specifics but just salvation.  I feel you will agree that Salvation is the most important issue will face on this earth.  Don't you think you owe it to yourself to make sure you have it right.  Keep this in mind, If you are not 100% sure that if you died today you would go to Heaven, then you don't have it right.  That's not what I say, it's what the Bible says.  You need to give that it's share of weight in the issue.


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## j_seph (Jun 3, 2019)

So do JW still sacrifice animals to please God? I am thankful that God sent his only begotten son for me. The one and only sacrifice that I needed. The places I have taken him and the sins I have placed on him for myself alone are embarrassing and somewhat shameful but to know he still loves me and has not forsaken me is humbling.

With only 144,000 





> The 'anointed' Based on their understanding of scriptures such as Revelation 14:1-4, Jehovah's Witnesses believe that exactly *144,000* faithful Christians go to heaven to rule with Christ in the kingdom of God.


from what google says that JW believe will go to heaven.
Another search says there are over 8,000,000 JW around the world. If that is based on your works then there is a lot of competition to get there and gives each one a 1.8% chance of getting there. Glad my KJV bible has the promise of whosoever.


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## kmh1031 (Jun 3, 2019)

Thanks for the comments, in response, and suggestion to talk to other religions.

And yes we firmly believe in Salvation: John 17:3...That is a great salvation scripture and helps us see we need to take in knowledge of Jesus AND the one who sent him, Jehovah God.

And to your suggestion about checking out other religions, actually my family and I used to be Baptist, and my wife's family Methodist.

For years we went to church, listened, and Christians do...

yet over time, we were frustrated, fed up, with all the incorrectness we saw
Gay ministers, celebration of Pagan Holidays, politics in the pulpit...as we know that is not from the bible, and not following the teachings, commands of Jesus and God.
Thus we started looking....
we found out, that 

None of the early Christians were involved in politics, celebrated any of the holidays at the time...and they knew the condition of the dead that it is not one of torment...
Note Mary's comment to Jesus about Lazarus: 
 Lord I know he will rise on the LAST day...(so he was in the grave, not someplace else) Jesus told her he was "sleeping" after 4 days in the grave...

None of the ministers, pastors were able to answer, 
what is the condition of the dead (accurately from he bible)
Why do bad things happen to good people
IF god is in charge of this world, why doesn't he do something?
Why so much crime and violence?

Through our study of the bible we learned the answers to these questions and more...
We also learned that once one is dead, they are forgiven of their sins, not tormented...Romans 6:7. for those who have died have been acquitted of their sins...

Also, we learned that their is a hope for the meek, and the earth, read for example Ps 37...who are these people, and if all go to heaven and ****...who are the meek that inherit the earth?

Tons more...and thank you for your concern and comments....


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## BeerThirty (Jun 3, 2019)

Be ready, they've got your address, expect a knock on the door in the near future.  I normally don't answer the door.  If you're daring enough to open the door, make sure you're prepared.  These folks do nothing but train to overcome every objection you're gonna  throw at them.


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## kmh1031 (Jun 3, 2019)

No no animal sacrifices.....

The 144,000 is mentioned as the kingdom heirs with Jesus...and Revelation also mentions a "great Crowd "....along with them..who are they and where are they going to be?
Revelation, and other scriptures give specific duties/responsibilities of those that go to heaven...know what they are via your study of the bible.

Floating in the clouds and playing harps...is not one of them..

Note also PS 37 and other scriptures....and those that will inherit the earth...
Earth was created for man, not heaven...


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## kmh1031 (Jun 3, 2019)

we simply study the bible, and carry out the command of Jesus, and his disciples..
Matt 24:14
Matt 28:19-20
The message of Gods kingdom, was the foremost in Jesus ministry...and is for us also.
IF we call on you, and you are not interested....simply let us know, and we will move on..


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## j_seph (Jun 3, 2019)

You mentioned the Gay ministers(which I do not agree with them either), how do JW react to the Gays?
Another interesting thing is in your Genesis 2:16 it says Jehovah God in KJV it says Lord God. To me by saying Lord God is like saying Mr. Smith as an example to show respect. If my understanding is correct, JW view is Jehovah is Gods name which to me if that is the case is less respect. I also came across this as well.


> What does the name Jehovah stand for?
> *Jehovah*. Another *name* for God; an approximation of the holiest *name* of God in Hebrew (the *name* was held so sacred that it was never written or spoken, and scholars are not sure exactly how it should be pronounced). It *means* “I am that I am,” or “I am the one who is.”


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## kmh1031 (Jun 3, 2019)

Good questions, and comments and I appreciate this flavor of conversation.

Regarding the respectful use of his name, nowhere in the Bible does Jehovah prohibit the respectful use of his name.

In fact, the Scriptures reveal that the divine name was freely used by God’s servants. 
So much so that they included it in the names they gave their children, such as Elijah, which means “My God Is Jehovah,” and Zechariah, which means “Jehovah Has Remembered.” And they did not hesitate to use God’s name in daily conversations, as indicated at Ruth 2:4.

Many today use Gods name in a way, unknowingly when the say, “Hallelu*jah*”  which means, praise ye Jehovah, frequently rendered "Praise ye the LORD (lord in capitols frequently used incorrectly instead of Gods name)

The fact that he put his person name over 6800 times in the original writings, shows he wants us to know him, call him by name, and learn his qualities and attributes. How could one have a personal relationship with someone without learning their name? 

As I said before, Jesus before his death said; “I have made your name known”.

God wants us to use his name. We are encouraged to “give thanks to Jehovah, call on his name.” at Psalm 105:1 God, even takes a favorable note of those “meditating on his name.”  Malachi 3:16.

Those *calling* on his name will be saved…as indicated in Proverbs…
_“May people know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the Most High over all the earth.”—Psalm 83:18._

Regarding Gays, JWs obviously take the bible viewpoint that this lifestyle is in opposition to gods laws and commands, from the very beginning.

Our Creator established rules governing marriage long before governments began regulating the institution. The opening book of the Bible tells us: “A man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh.” ( Gen 2;24)

The Hebrew word “wife,” denotes one who is a female human being.” Jesus confirmed that those yoked together in marriage should be “male and female.” Matt 19:4. 

With all of this being said, we treat all with respect, including gays, but do not approve of this lifestyle as it is unapproved by god, in many scriptures.
However it is possible for them to come to an accurate understanding of bible truths, and gods viewpoint and change from this lifestyle. Notice this scripture,  1 Cor 6: 9-11.

Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters,_h_ adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts,_j_ men who practice homosexuality, *10 * thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom. *11 


11* And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean you have been sanctified you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.

SO it says some of you WERE, means they changed..after learning the accurate truth of the bible. So, it they are interested in learning about God, his moral code, and how then can be approved, we are all for it, but a lifestyle change would be required.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 4, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> Thanks for the comments, in response, and suggestion to talk to other religions.
> 
> And yes we firmly believe in Salvation: John 17:3...That is a great salvation scripture and helps us see we need to take in knowledge of Jesus AND the one who sent him, Jehovah God.
> 
> ...



First and foremost, NONE,  I repeat NONE, of that has anything to do with salvation.  
Not one iota.

Secondly I find it hard to find credible what you state above about preachers not being able to answer your questions.  Every preacher I know and most informed atheist can tell you what  the Bible states.  It appears to me it’s more likely you simply didn’t like the answers and shopped around until you found answers that agreed with your reality.  Just keep in mind, if your assessment of reality was initially Ill-informed, you are just as lost as ever, for all you did was find someone to reinforce your mistake.


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## kmh1031 (Jun 4, 2019)

No, the answers were not comforting, or bible based.
"God needed another angel" (when asked 2 preachers over the Death of a friends child)
Gods ways are mysterious, and we dont know the works of God"
They did not know WHY we die.
They did not know why god allows suffering....and it is NOT to test us.

SO we went looking...
Many today find answers they want in church as it fits their lifestyle, without making major changes...
Therefore their “ears are tickled” to have attendance at many churches without having to conform to the bibles standards.

Of course in the beginning, we were doubting "Thomas's" if you will when we were first approached by JW's.
But yet every question was answered from the Bible from my previous posts and many more, so your response to our actions is quite the opposite.
Salvation?


Matt 24:13 shows the one who endures to the end will be saved.
John 17:3 shows taking in Knowledge of Jesus and The one who sent him means everlasting life and we do that daily.

Through Jesus, God revealed the full scope of the meaning of salvation. It includes release from the rulership of sin, from bondage to false religion, from the world under Satan’s control, from the fear of man, and even from the fear of death. You can review at John 17:16; Romans 8:2; Colossians 1:13; Revelation 18:2, 4

Ultimately, for God’s faithful servants, salvation by God means not only deliverance from oppression and distress but also the opportunity to have everlasting life, John 6:40; 17:3
Jesus taught that for a “little flock,” salvation means their being resurrected to heavenly life to share with Christ in Kingdom rule, Luke 12:32

For the rest of mankind, salvation means a restoration to the perfect life and relationship with God that Adam and Eve enjoyed in the garden of Eden before they sinned. And for reference you can view Acts 3:21; Ephesians 1:10
There are over 100 prophesies in the bible about the earth being restored to a paradise and faithful humans living upon it in perfect conditions.
Everlasting life under such paradisiac conditions was God’s original purpose for mankind, and it has not changed. Genesis 1:28; Mark 10:30

If you are comfortable with your belief, and your views and religion are bible based, then wonderful, I am happy for you. 

However Jesus before his death, due to "oppressive wolves" entering the Christian congregation, laid out* 7-8* identifying traits of the TRUE religion for his future followers. It works down to this day, and it helped us.

I am sure based on your study of the bible you know and have read these…and have found or are searching for it. 

It is the litmus test we *all must* do to make sure we have the true religion. Don’t take my word for it, thousands of religions and sects today…..how do we know we have the right one?
Jesus indicated in Matt 7, that some would think they have it..but don’t… get away from me he said...

Matt 7:13-14  Go in through the narrow gate, because broad is the gate and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are going in through it; *14* whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are finding it.

It is a roadmap that Jesus left all of his in the scriptures to help us have salvation, and make sure we are on the road to life by these identifying marks of the True Religion..


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 4, 2019)

Back to salvation, Matt 24:13 shows the one who endures to the end will be saved. From what?

Is this the physical salvation from the powers of Satan? Then we have "those calling on His name will be saved." What salvation is that? Salvation from eternal death?

I can see many who do not receive salvation, die when they die so to speak. I do see different types of salvation in Scripture. Sometimes it appears to be a physical salvation from Satan, or even God's wrath such as a battle or destruction of the city. Other times it appears to be a spiritual salvation from eternal death.

Then what do we gain from this salvation if physical? A physical life on on a Restored Earth or spiritual life in a far away Heaven. Scripture talks of two Kingdoms, one in Heaven and one to come on the earth as it is in Heaven.

Now the big question; how important is it for us to know the meaning of salvation? Can't we just know we want salvation and know that's good enough? The Kingdom? Can't we just know we want in it even if we don't know where it will be? Perhaps it will be on the earth(physical heaven) or in the original Heaven(spiritual heaven). Can't we just know we want to go there and not have to believe exactly every detail and aspect of the Kingdom?


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## kmh1031 (Jun 4, 2019)

And to your point, what I previously said DOES have everything and more to do with our salvation..
IF we are worshiping god in ways that is unapproved, or via traditions, we will not get life. 
God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” John 4:24. 

“This people honor me, with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.” Mark 7:6, 7

If people claiming to worship God teach their own ideas instead of what the Bible teaches, their worship is in vain. It is not acceptable to God.
condoning pagan holidays, Politics, war, immorality and more...are not approved, and will not result in salvation..

God does have a people today...and in Revelation 18:4 he warns them....

And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, *my people*, if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 4, 2019)

Can't we just be Spiritual? If Jesus came and did the "physical" part for us and "it is finished," then why do we dwell on what "we" must do? 

Why not just try to be more spiritual? Knowing that there is nothing physical we can do anyway to gain salvation.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 4, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> Good questions, and comments and I appreciate this flavor of conversation.
> 
> Regarding the respectful use of his name, nowhere in the Bible does Jehovah prohibit the respectful use of his name.
> 
> ...



I would agree that Jesus did teach his Father's Kingdom utmost. Everything was about his Father and our Father, his God and our God. In Paul's sin list of who would not enter this Kingdom that Jesus taught? Didn't he also say this?

1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 4, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> And to your point, what I previously said DOES have everything and more to do with our salvation..
> IF we are worshiping god in ways that is unapproved, or via traditions, we will not get life.
> God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.” John 4:24.
> 
> ...



I too went seeking. I no longer believe in the Trinity as most trinitarians, not that I understand it any better than they do. I do not believe in eternal torment but everlasting death. I too see the different Kindom's and salvations.  I never received all the answers I was looking for.

I believe you as me, seeked and found your answers with the JW's. In doing so, you took away the salvation of people like me. You added back to salvation requirements that Jesus died for. You did find answers but within those answers came stipulations. You gained a lot more knowledge than you actually needed.


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## kmh1031 (Jun 4, 2019)

Art, related to your earlier post this morning...

It is a Physical and Spiritual salvation….Physical in the sense that IF we gain accurate knowledge John 17:3, we will gain everlasting life..and be part of Gods kingdom which was the focal point of Jesus ministry Matt 6:33, Matthew 24:14 and many more.

The kingdom that Jesus actually spoke about and was the focal part of his ministry is an actual kingdom, and it will bring to ruin all earthly governments: Dan 2:44. 

But it will also bring many blessings; Rev 21:3-4, death and mourning be no more. He gave a glimpse of the benefits as the kingdom while on earth; raised the dead, cured the blind, lame and more. Much better rulers than we have today.

All of this is done via Armageddon, which is not a WW3 or catastrophic event caused by Man.
But is is “Gods war against the world governments, false religion, and all those associated with these. Thus the warning at Revelation to “get out of her my people”.

Spiritual in the sense that we come to an accurate knowledge of the bible, its teachings and it will save us from the many false religious teachings today,:
condition of the dead, 
heaven and ****, 
belief that the earth will be destroyed, 
once saved always saved 
why god permits wickedness, 
who is in control of this world, and many more.

Matt 24:13 shows endures to the end will be saved….But just believing is not enough…
James 2:19
You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.

So it is not just enough to read and believe…we must take action, and “exercise our faith”…and more.

To gain salvation, you must exercise faith in Jesus and demonstrate that faith by obeying his commands as shown at Acts 4:10, 12 and Romans 10:9, 10 and also Hebrews 5:9.

The Bible shows that you must have works, or acts of obedience, to prove that your faith is alive James 2:24, 26,

Regarding being saved; 
The bible clearly shows the majority will not be saved…2 Thessalonians 1:9.  When Jesus was asked, “Are those being saved few?” he replied: “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able.”—Luke 13:23, 24.

Saved from the end of this old system of things when Jesus ushers in his Kingdom…we all have prayed for…in the lords prayer; “your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as in heaven”…


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 4, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> Art, related to your earlier post this morning...
> 
> It is a Physical and Spiritual salvation….Physical in the sense that IF we gain accurate knowledge John 17:3, we will gain everlasting life..and be part of Gods kingdom which was the focal point of Jesus ministry Matt 6:33, Matthew 24:14 and many more.
> 
> ...



Then those that are saved are saved from what? Eternal death? Satan's powers? The destruction of Jerusalem?

Those few than are saved, gain what? Eternal life? A physical life without Satan? Spiritual life in Heaven? Physical life on a restored earth?

Then to think one has to have the knowledge or has to gain this knowledge of such a complex religion, just to qualify?

That one must understand the complexity just as I do or one isn't included in "the few."

So we've got within the Unity of God, the Trinity, Oneness, eternal sonship, incarnational sonship, adoptive sonship, and whatever anyone else can  interpret to be true.
You are saying that within all of those beliefs, only the few that believe Jesus is Michael incarnate are included?

If all of the above believe Jesus died for their sins and that Jesus is the son of God, why does it matter so much exactly who Jesus is beyond the son of God? When God bestowed sonship to you, were you a trinitarian or a Michael incarnated as Jesus believer?

What is that belief actually called in relation to sonship? In that Michael becomes Jesus? Is that incarnational sonship or adoptive sonship?


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## kmh1031 (Jun 4, 2019)

Then those that are saved are saved from what? Eternal death? Satan's powers? The destruction of Jerusalem?
_The destruction of that is to come upon the earth, as foretold in the bible. 

Armageddon is the symbolic place of “the war of the great day of God the Almighty,” his war against the wicked. Revelation 16:14, 16  _

Those few than are saved, gain what? Eternal life? 

_Some go to heaven as indicated in Revelation, the majority is the great crowd. 

Restored to perfect health here on earth without death, sickness, crime, unjust governments, etc. As foretold in Isa, Ps 37, and Rev 21:3-4 to name a few. Many, many more and it is the Kingdom Jesus taught about and its benefits.

Satan and his demons will be abyssed for 1,000 years, as evidenced again in Revelation. False religion and the worldly govts done away with (Dan 2:44) and Gods righteous rule will begin, JUST like it was supposed to in the Garden of Eden.
Gods purpose for the earth and mankind has not changed.

This also is the day (over 1,000 years) of resurrection of all the dead, as indicated in the scriptures, and Mary eluded to when referring to Lazarus  being raised up...on the "last day"(no he was not in heaven or ****, simply the grave) she knew the condition of the dead, and the future._

A physical life without Satan? Spiritual life in Heaven? Physical life on a restored earth? Yes, 

Then to think one has to have the knowledge or has to gain this knowledge of such a complex religion, just to qualify? 

_The truth is not complex...
Jesus said to a group of listeners at John 8:32: “You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”  What truth is that_?


_Also, Acts 13:48 says, When those of the nations heard this, they began to rejoice and to glorify the word of God, and all those who were *rightly disposed *for everlasting life became believers._

_The bible truths are not hard to understand once the mask is taken off regarding false teaching.
Actually it is very simple, that is why, you will know the truth, and it will set you free as regards to
the condition of the dead
why we grow old and die
etc, etc_


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 4, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> _Satan and his demons will be abyssed for 1,000 years, as evidenced again in Revelation. False religion and the worldly govts done away with (Dan 2:44) and Gods righteous rule will begin, JUST like it was supposed to in the Garden of Eden.
> Gods purpose for the earth and mankind has not changed._
> 
> _This also is the day (over 1,000 years) of resurrection of all the dead, as indicated in the scriptures, and Mary eluded to when referring to Lazarus  being raised up...on the "last day"(no he was not in heaven or ****, simply the grave) she knew the condition of the dead, and the future.
> c_



"Resurrection of all the dead?"

From JW.org;
*20 *Does this mean that everyone who has died will be resurrected? No. Jesus said that some people would not be brought back to life. 

*25 *Very soon, Jehovah will free all humans from death, and death will be gone forever!

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-study/there-will-be-a-resurrection/

If only a few gain eternal life, then how can all be resurrected? How can death be done away with if people will stay dead?


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## j_seph (Jun 4, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> I do not believe in eternal torment but everlasting death.


So are you saying that the same Jesus that you took in knowledge from as kmh stated in John 17:3 that what the same Jesus that is in Matthew was telling a lie here?
*Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:*
As well
*Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.*


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## kmh1031 (Jun 4, 2019)

That is true, and from your study of the bible, we know those executed by Gods Hands; the flood, those of Sodom and Gomorrah, Judas, and others will not be brought back. 
God has that knowledge not us... 
However in the new earth/world, people will not die, ....from the causes of sin that we deal with today...
Romans 5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned.
But Revelation shows that at the end of the 1,000 satan and his demons will be let out for a little while....and those that pass the final test will receive immortality.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 4, 2019)

j_seph said:


> So are you saying that the same Jesus that you took in knowledge from as kmh stated in John 17:3 that what the same Jesus that is in Matthew was telling a lie here?
> *Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:*
> As well
> *Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.*



Yes, that is what I'm saying.


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## kmh1031 (Jun 4, 2019)

Regarding Matt 25:41
The question comes up: Is “the eternal fire” Jesus warned of literal or symbolic?
Note that “the eternal fire” mentioned by Jesus and recorded at Matthew 25:41 was prepared “for the devil and his angels.”

Do you think that literal fire can burn spirit creatures? 

Obviously not, as you remember the fiery furnace with the 3 Hebrews and the Angel….did not bother them..
So was Jesus using the term “fire” symbolically?

Certainly “the sheep” and “the goats” mentioned in the same discourse are not literal; they are word pictures that represent two types of people. This is found at Matthew 25:32, 33
The eternal fire that Jesus spoke of completely burns up the wicked in a figurative sense.
Everlasting punishment, is simply death.  
The bible does not preach a ****, nor did Jesus or God.
The soul that is sinning it itself shall die..Ex 18:4.
Romans 6:7 all those who have died have been acquitted of their sins
ECC 9: 5-9, condition of dead.
Ps 146:3-4 all return to dust.

In Eden, did God say Adam would die? or go to a fiery torment? IF these was such a thing, would it not be more cruel to not tell Adam that was his destiny if he sinned?

**** translated into many bibles is incorrect, it is simply mankind common grave, Sheol, or Hades. 

Did you know good men were in **** (the grave) Jacob and Job expected to go there.
David, Moses, Abraham and other faithful men did not go to heaven? what was their hope?

Jeremiah 7:31, burning of people, via fire is something detestable to God...and not even he had thought of it...

" They have built the high places of Toʹpheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinʹnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart."


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 4, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> That is true, and from your study of the bible, we know those executed by Gods Hands; the flood, those of Sodom and Gomorrah, Judas, and others will not be brought back.
> God has that knowledge not us...
> However in the new earth/world, people will not die, ....from the causes of sin that we deal with today...
> Romans 5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned.
> But Revelation shows that at the end of the 1,000 satan and his demons will be let out for a little while....and those that pass the final test will receive immortality.


 
I"m not sure you cleared up what I posted in #55 what I read from JW.org?

*20 *Does this mean that everyone who has died will be resurrected? No. Jesus said that some people would not be brought back to life. 

*25 *Very soon, Jehovah will free all humans from death, and death will be gone forever! 

Who resurrects, all or the few? If all humans are free from death won't everyone have to be resurrected? If death will be gone forever, won't everyone get to live?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 4, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> Regarding Matt 25:41
> The question comes up: Is “the eternal fire” Jesus warned of literal or symbolic?
> Note that “the eternal fire” mentioned by Jesus and recorded at Matthew 25:41 was prepared “for the devil and his angels.”
> 
> ...



Hey, we agree on something. I'll bet we both agree Jesus is the son of God as well.

But suppose a brother sees everlasting life as an alternative to everlasting torment instead of everlasting death. Does that simple belief take away his everlasting life?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 4, 2019)

I'm not sure how one can even gain salvation from eternal torment and call it everlasting life. Salvation in the form of everlasting life would be from Death. Otherwise it's not everlasting life. We would have to call it something else like "everlasting escape from torment with no such thing as death." If one can't die. If no one can gain immortality. If we are born immortal.


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## NCHillbilly (Jun 4, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> after hosting two of his missionaries, sending them packing with some peach preserves, spiced apples and honey from our hive,


I think I’m gonna come over to your house and swear up and down that  I’m a jehova witness.


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## kmh1031 (Jun 4, 2019)

The apostle Paul said to a group of Jews who also entertained the hope of a resurrection that “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” Ac 24:15.

Our study of the bible makes it plain who are “the righteous.” First of all, those who are to receive a heavenly resurrection are declared righteous, Ro 8:28-30.

But not all go to heaven, as the Bible calls faithful men of old such as Abraham righteous in Ge 15:6; and Jas 2:21

Interestingly many of these men are listed at Hebrews chapter 11, and of them the writer says: “And yet all these, although they had witness borne to them through their faith, *did not get the fulfillment of the promise*, (meaning a resurrection to heaven) as God foresaw something better for us spirit-begotten, anointed Christians like Paul in order that they might not be made perfect apart from us.” Note Heb 11:39, 40

All will agree that Abraham, Moses David were all god fearing righteous men, yet did not have the heavenly hope…

So then there is the “great crowd” described in Revelation chapter 7, who are not members of the “sealed” ones, and who consequently do not have “the token” of the spirit as being spirit-begotten as shown in Eph 1:13, 14; 2Co 5:5

They are described as coming “out of the great tribulation” as survivors of it; this would seem to locate the gathering of this group in the last days shortly before that tribulation.

Now to the who is resurrected, as there are many “unrighteous” persons buried in Sheol (Hades), mankind’s common grave, or in “the sea,” watery graves etc.

The judgment of these along with “the righteous” resurrected on earth is described in Revelation 20:12, 13: “And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened.

But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.”

The bible plainly tells is that once we have died, we have been forgiven of your sins, (Romans 6:7) no eternal torment, this must be *future judgement* not based on our past deeds. SO they are resurrected to study and learn and gain accurate knowledge. Their judgement day begins in this period…

The resurrected ones will be in gods memory. IF he can build the earth, universe, all our hairs of our head are numbered, he calls the stars by name, certainly he can remember and completely resurrect us.

They are judged based on their future course, after coming to an accurate knowledge of the bible…the purpose of the peaceful 1000 years.


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## kmh1031 (Jun 4, 2019)

that would be awesome!


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## kmh1031 (Jun 4, 2019)

but you have to know the secret handshake


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 4, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> The apostle Paul said to a group of Jews who also entertained the hope of a resurrection that “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” Ac 24:15.
> 
> Our study of the bible makes it plain who are “the righteous.” First of all, those who are to receive a heavenly resurrection are declared righteous, Ro 8:28-30.
> 
> ...



I'd sure hate to think my salvation is based on an accurate knowledge of the Bible. I still don't understand how everyone can resurrect if salvation is from eternal life. What do those who don't gain everlasting life do after their resurrection? Do they die again? 

Why awaken someone to tell them they are dead? That they aren't receiving eternal life?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 4, 2019)

The thing about Satan and the trouble he causes us now on the earth is not just a JW belief. Many Christians believe Satan is the ruler of this world and that we must all suffer until Christ returns and cast Satan in the abyss. 
We will continue to suffer until then. Many verses about Jesus crushing Satan when he returns. 

1 Corinthians 15:25-26
Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.   26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 4, 2019)

1 Corinthians 15:28 
And when all things have been subjected to Him, then the Son Himself will be made subject to Him who put all things under Him, so that God may be all in all.


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## kmh1031 (Jun 4, 2019)

Full accurate knowledge cannot be fully achieved in our imperfect state... however striving for it and working in harmony with gods will among other things will help us achieve salvation and everlasting life.
Spirit and truth, we must strive for it and put away traditions, false teachings, that are not in harmony with the Bible... 

Surviving the end of this old system or being brought back to life in the resurrection we are still imperfect, inherited by Adam... 
this the judgement day... we all will work in the 1,000 years to achieve perfection as Adam was perfect and without the influence of Satan. We all that survive or god resurrects them come to an accurate understanding of the Bible and new scrolls will be opened. 
So this time is an education period also...

The Bible talks of a time of righteousness in all his holy mountain and many bible prophesies show it is on watch and a restoration of mankind and the earth.
No more sickness, death, Satan, bad influence, or wicked people 
After perfection has been obtained, like Adam and Eve who lost for all of us 
Then the Bible shows we will be tested.

Revelation:” And Satan will be loosed for a little while”
Those surviving this final test as they will be perfect like Adam and Eve, will gain immortality in this peaceful paradise earth just as god originally planned on the garden of Eden


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## kmh1031 (Jun 4, 2019)

Excellent scriptures etc and you are truly on track as Jesus will hand over the kingdom back to his father


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 4, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> Full accurate knowledge cannot be fully achieved in our imperfect state... however striving for it and working in harmony with gods will among other things will help us achieve salvation and everlasting life.
> Spirit and truth, we must strive for it and put away traditions, false teachings, that are not in harmony with the Bible...
> 
> Surviving the end of this old system or being brought back to life in the resurrection we are still imperfect, inherited by Adam...
> ...



If Satan is the ruler of this world now, even when we resurrect imperfect, how can we overcome our imperfect state even in 1,000 years? I mean even with New Scrolls, won't Satan still be around to corrupt us?

If all of that is true, what was the reason for Christ dying on a cross for our inability to not achieve what you say we will able to do in that 1,000 years?
If I can't redeem myself now, I'm not sure I'll be able to do it in the Millennium.

You keep mentioning knowledge as being a major part of one gaining salvation thorough there own redemption process. But we can't do it now and must wait for the Millennium.

Paul said "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

If I am truly washed in the blood and sanctified and justified, I'm not sure there is really nothing knowledge can do to add to my salvation.

Knowledge can help me to learn to be more Christ like. It help me act holy. It can do a lot of things but knowledge will never offer me a way to salvation.

1 Corinthians 1:30 
It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.


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## j_seph (Jun 4, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> Regarding Matt 25:41
> The question comes up: Is “the eternal fire” Jesus warned of literal or symbolic?
> Note that “the eternal fire” mentioned by Jesus and recorded at Matthew 25:41 was prepared “for the devil and his angels.”
> 
> ...


You should probably go read the verses at the beginning of that chapter and see who the left and who the right is, who the sheep and who the goats are.


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## kmh1031 (Jun 4, 2019)

Art
1.Satan and his demons will be abyssed during that time period this no influence 

2.All wickedness will be gone the education process will begin 
Note Ezekiel, Ps and many other scripture during that time period 
We all will grow to perfection. 

3.Adam via his perfect life cost us a chance at everlasting life... this a ransom had to be paid to free us from the Debt this we die Rpm 5:12
Jesus was that lamb, or ransom and he makes the way for all of us via his sacrifice to regain everlasting life 

4.Yes we can continue to gain knowledge remember way back in earlier posts; John 17:3 taking in knowledge of Jesus and the one who sent him forth... 
much more is needed though but this is the start 

The Bible does not agree with once saved always saves.... Matt 24:13 
We continue to work out our salvation... we are never done.. 

We can never complete our knowledge of Jehovah and Jesus... their attributes their qualities. Gods fruit of the spirit and how they apply and we can apply in our life... the many examples in the Bible how they can help us, endure trials and so much more. 

No.. doing God’s will taking in knowledge constantly helps us


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## kmh1031 (Jun 4, 2019)

j Sept 
Will do.. thanks


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 5, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> I think I’m gonna come over to your house and swear up and down that  I’m a jehova witness.



Come on over Brother.  When you come to my house everyone is treated as family.


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## kmh1031 (Jun 5, 2019)

What for dinner?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 5, 2019)

j_seph said:


> You should probably go read the verses at the beginning of that chapter and see who the left and who the right is, who the sheep and who the goats are.



Wasting your time Brother.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 5, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> What for dinner?



Dunno.  I'm grateful for whatever is put in front of me.


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## kmh1031 (Jun 5, 2019)

J_Seph
Why would you say he is wasting his time?


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## j_seph (Jun 5, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> J_Seph
> Why would you say he is wasting his time?


I did not say that.


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## j_seph (Jun 5, 2019)

Go back to Matthew 24 and you will see that these are the words spoken to the disciples from Jesus


> 25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
> 2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
> 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
> 4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
> ...


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## kmh1031 (Jun 5, 2019)

Sorry J_Seph 
Read the poster wrong on cell phone.
Apologize


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 5, 2019)

j_seph said:


> Go back to Matthew 24 and you will see that these are the words spoken to the disciples from Jesus



I wonder why verse 32 includes "nations?"                                      "before him shall be gathered all nations"


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 5, 2019)

j_seph said:


> Go back to Matthew 24 and you will see that these are the words spoken to the disciples from Jesus



One other thing that I've always struggled with is that this "division" of the sheep and goats is based on works. The sheep earned being sheep by feeding, helping, visiting, etc. The goats didn't do any works.


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## j_seph (Jun 5, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> I wonder why verse 32 includes "nations?"                                      "before him shall be gathered all nations"


I would say that to me means that ALL will be judged


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## j_seph (Jun 5, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> One other thing that I've always struggled with is that this "division" of the sheep and goats is based on works. The sheep earned being sheep by feeding, helping, visiting, etc. The goats didn't do any works.


Psalms 100:3 - Know ye that the LORD he [is] God: [it is] he [that] hath made us, and not we ourselves; [we are] his people, and the sheep of his pasture

Reckon a good Shepard could tell the difference between goats and sheep? We are his sheep (those saved) those goats that do not belong in the flock are removed as they are not sheep.


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## kmh1031 (Jun 5, 2019)

Sorry 
Love to respond and I will later, reading a little bit every once in awhile...
3 day meetings and dinner... great content though


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 5, 2019)

j_seph said:


> Psalms 100:3 - Know ye that the LORD he [is] God: [it is] he [that] hath made us, and not we ourselves; [we are] his people, and the sheep of his pasture
> 
> Reckon a good Shepard could tell the difference between goats and sheep? We are his sheep (those saved) those goats that do not belong in the flock are removed as they are not sheep.



I try really hard to take works out of the salvation equation. I'm doing really good until I read verses like the sheep and goats which is all about works.

At the end of the age there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous for judgment: sheep and goats, wheat and weeds, good-doers and evil-doers, etc.

Why not just a resurrection of the saved vs the not saved?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 5, 2019)

I'm re-reading Matthew 24 and 25. 

Matthew 24:12-13
12Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold.   13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

How does  the love of most grow cold but some persevere? Also noticed in Matthew 24 the destruction of Jerusalem. Then the Gospel goes out to all the nations and then the end comes. 

What I'm trying to understand is at what point in Mattew 25/25 does the storyline change from Jerusalem to the World? Maybe verse 14;

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 5, 2019)

Well it didn't change in verse 14 because in 15 it's back to Jerusalem. The destruction was cut short to save the Elect. 

Verse 30 goes back to the whole world or "all the tribes of the world." Then Jesus goes into the parables. So how do we know in these two chapters if it's Israel, all nations, or individuals from the whole world?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 5, 2019)

Moving on, "this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened." 

The Son doesn't even know when it will happen, only the Father. Yet the Son is back in Heaven with the Father. Waiting for the word to return. Waiting on his Father to give the command.

It's going to take a lot of people by surprise.  

What is it they must do to prepare? What must they do to heed this warning? Works? Persevere? Don't let your love grow cold? Feed the hungry? Help the sick?

Jesus is giving them a warning to prepare. If one is saved, what else must he do? Why do we need a warning to persevere?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 5, 2019)

Reading on in parables, it's always the evil ones that are thrown in the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The whole message of these parables is a works based salvation. The one who beats his fellow servants and eats with drunkards. People who don't feed  and help. The Shepard does know who his Sheep is and he gives the reason as to why they are Sheep. It's based on their actions.

46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." It doesn't sound like Jesus is talking about "imputed" righteousness in this parable either.


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## j_seph (Jun 6, 2019)

Trying best I can here Art, when it talks about all nations/tribes and such. The way I understand that is that everyone on this planet (maybe even Mars if it has life LoL) will have heard of Jesus Christ and will have that opportunity to accept him. I understand that the Love growing cold. I know some people who can be the best people you know yet they will not accept Christ do not believe in him. Even though they are good people, they have not Christ and that Love we see will go away, where those with the Love of Christ in them will not grow cold. "You have Jesus in your heart"
Where it talks about vs 35 36 is how I understand it you accepted Christ.
Yes it will take folks by surprise, in the twinkling of an eye. We are not promised our next heartbeat.
What must you do, accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, believe in him with all your heart. I do feel that works are being obedient and doing what God ask you to do, trying your best to walk in the tracks of Jesus not outside of them and knowing you will screw up but being quick to repent and not going back to your old way. I also feel that when we get out of his will and we are saved by his grace we will pay for our sins on this side.

Heard one of our church members the other day talking about when he was called to preach. He said no, ran from that calling for 5 years. Decided himself he would just be song leader, that is what HE wanted not what God called him to do. Go back to the Talents part of that scripture. He was leading choir one night and got choked on a life saver. Some how he managed to get that sucker swallowed down and immediately announced his preacher calling.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 6, 2019)

I guess the warnings to prepare for Christ's return then are for non-Christians? Yet in Matthew 24, the warnings are for Christians. Flee to the mountains, etc.

Persevere to the end sounds like a heed to Christians. The whole two chapters seems to be geared more for Christians to be ready, not non-Christians. Like no one really knows so we must all be ready.

Watch out that no one deceives you. Many will come and say the are Christ and deceive many. They will lead many astray. Many will be killed in the name of Christ and many will fall away. False prophets will mislead many. Isn't this a warning to Christians?

The love of many will grow cold but those that persevere to the end, will be saved.

16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house.   18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

Again, it sounds like a warning for Christians.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 6, 2019)

Those "new" scrolls? The ones that will help us gain knowledge for the Judgement Day, after our resurrection. Where is it in scripture that says they will be available? If not in scripture, where did we find out about them?


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