# Pope and young rule?



## BowHard (Sep 12, 2013)

I keep hearing that if your sight has illuminated pins via the small screw in light that comes standard on most sights now days, that you are disqualified from the pope and young if you kill a buck that would make the club. Is this true? If it is I'm gonna take my light off! I never use it anyways..


----------



## Wjackson11x (Sep 12, 2013)

To the best of my knowledge, you can't have anything attached to your bow or arrow that uses batteries.  Lighted nocks, sight light, or bow mounted rangefinder.


----------



## cpowel10 (Sep 12, 2013)

Wjackson11x said:


> To the best of my knowledge, you can't have anything attached to your bow or arrow that uses batteries.  Lighted nocks, sight light, or bow mounted rangefinder.




That's the way I understand it too.

I don't agree with it though


----------



## aj.hiner (Sep 12, 2013)

cpowel10 said:


> That's the way I understand it too.
> 
> I don't agree with it though



can i ask how anyone would ever know if your sight has a light or that you used a lighted nock or not?


----------



## NCummins (Sep 12, 2013)

Just take it off before you track it, then throw it in the bushes.


----------



## dgmeadows (Sep 13, 2013)

aj.hiner said:


> can i ask how anyone would ever know if your sight has a light or that you used a lighted nock or not?



The scorer will ask you, and if the kill is big enough (say a state record contender) they may require polygraph.

I believe you can have a light attached, so long as it is not used.  

Personally, I will generally use lighted nocks for evening hunts, & many mornings, & if I have enough light to shoot but can't see my pins, the light will be used.  If that means my kill won't be listed in their book, so be it.


----------



## HuntinDawg89 (Sep 13, 2013)

aj.hiner said:


> can i ask how anyone would ever know if your sight has a light or that you used a lighted nock or not?



If an archer was willing to lie about it and it didn't show up in any pictures then they probably wouldn't know.  I know they used to ask for witnesses on the application.  I suppose it is possible they could find out that way.

Personally I wouldn't want any deceit associated with a record book entry bearing my name.

Back when P&Y didn't allow anything greater than 65% letoff I had to have limbs special ordered for my bow in order to be compliant in case I was fortunate enough to have a P&Y come within range of that bow.  I knew it was a long shot, but I wanted to be compliant.  It isn't that big of a deal to comply.  My fiber optic sights are pretty bright.

I do wish the lighted knocks were OK with P&Y.  I think those are different than electronics on your bow, because they do not aid in the taking of game, only in the finding of the downed game, and who could have an issue with that?  However the rule is what it is, nothing electronic on bow or arrow.


----------



## HuntinDawg89 (Sep 13, 2013)

dgmeadows said:


> I believe you can have a light attached, so long as it is not used.



That isn't how I read it.  I don't think you can have anything electronic on your bow, whether you use it or not.


----------



## klemsontigers7 (Sep 13, 2013)

I guess I just can't see why people care...


----------



## dgmeadows (Sep 13, 2013)

HuntinDawg89 said:


> If an archer was willing to lie about it and it didn't show up in any pictures then they probably wouldn't know.  I know they used to ask for witnesses on the application.  I suppose it is possible they could find out that way.
> 
> Personally I wouldn't want any deceit associated with a record book entry bearing my name.
> 
> ...



I am sure there are lots and lots of bucks entered every year that are taken with lighted nocks and lighted sights.  Only the potential big records (State, big Counties in certain states, etc.) do they likely really scrutinize.  I suspect it may depend on the scorer you go to, and many scorers may even present it as a leading question _ "You know lighted sights and nocks are not allowed, so you did not use either in killing this buck, correct ?"

I agree, I am personally not going to lie about it on the form.  If I happen to shoot a big enough buck, I just won't bother with their form.  I am not one of those who wants to claim "I have X bucks in the P&Y book."  I am not trying to disparage the P&Y Club, they have done great things for archery hunting. I just don't get the thrill of being one of thousands listed in a book for having killed a buck over 125".  If I shoot a big one, I'll post the pics and have it mounted, but whether my name is in that book just doesn't really matter to me.  If I shoot a state record (not likely in McDuffie County, but theoretically) I am sure GON will still come take my picture, even if I used a lighted nock and sight, and had a rangefinder and laser sight on the bow.

As you noted, P&Y rules used to disallow anything greater then 65% let off (by the way, I assume you meant special cams - limbs would not affect let off) but P&Y eventually changed that because virtually every bow made was greater than 65% letoff.  If they did not change the rule, there would be no more (legitimate) entries in their book.  The same is likely to eventually occur with lighted nocks and lighted sights - if virtually every archer is using them, they either have to amend the rule, or they are looking the other way and not enforcing the rule.  Which is worse ?

Here's an interesting question for those that care - since virtually every TV hunter is using their sponsored brand of lighted nock these days, are these huge P&Y and even B&C scoring bucks being taken on TV being entered in the P&Y books ? 

Might be interesting if someone had the time and cared enough to compare TV kills to book listings.  (Not me.)


----------



## watermedic (Sep 13, 2013)

HuntinDawg89 said:


> That isn't how I read it.  I don't think you can have anything electronic on your bow, whether you use it or not.



This is correct!


----------



## GADawg08 (Sep 13, 2013)

I think all this nonsense is getting out of hand....why not make it where you can't use any cover scent spray (unfair advantage), carbon arrows (too fast), multi-pin sights (unfair advantage), no climbing stands (too high=unfair advantage).....I could keep goin but it would just be a waste of time. I think you guys get where Im goin. I understand trying to keep it "primitive" but at some point it starts to get rediculous


----------



## dgmeadows (Sep 13, 2013)

GADawg08 said:


> I think all this nonsense is getting out of hand....why not make it where you can't use any cover scent spray (unfair advantage), carbon arrows (too fast), multi-pin sights (unfair advantage), no climbing stands (too high=unfair advantage).....I could keep goin but it would just be a waste of time. I think you guys get where Im goin. I understand trying to keep it "primitive" but at some point it starts to get rediculous



Yep, that's why the other "scoring" organizations have come around, those that count "all points" and "all inches" without deductions and do not have such criteria.  Funny thing is, "Pope and Young buck" has come to mean one that exceeds 125"... not necessarily listed in the book.  I have spoken to many guys who say they killed a P&Y qualifying buck, but never actually took the steps to list it, either because they did not care to, or because their equipment didn't fit the rules.  Still, they refer to it as a P&Y buck.

But again, who really cares ? I just make sure I comply with the law where I am hunting.  I am not going to not use something that I feel helps me (lighted nocks) just so I can get my name in a book.

Just curious, as I have not actually read the P&Y rules in years - where do they stand on baiting ?  If you shoot a buck over bait, but it is legal to do so in the location you are hunting, do they accept the entry ?  I vaguely recall that they required "Fair Chase" , so no fenced areas, but do not recall if they specifically prohibited baiting.


----------



## DRB1313 (Sep 13, 2013)

Here is a copy of what P&Y says about Fair Chase

The Rules of Fair Chase

The term “Fair Chase” shall not include the taking of animals under the following conditions:

Helpless in a trap, deep snow or water, or on ice.
From any power vehicle or power boat.
By “jacklighting” or shining at night.
By the use of any tranquilizers or poisons.
While inside escape-proof fenced enclosures.
By the use of any power vehicle or power boats for herding or driving animals, including use of aircraft to land alongside or to communicate with or direct a hunter on the ground.
By the use of electronic devices for attracting, locating or pursuing game or guiding the hunter to such game, or by the use of a bow or arrow to which any electronic device is attached.
Any other condition considered by the Board of Directors as unacceptable.


----------



## dgmeadows (Sep 13, 2013)

DRB1313 said:


> Here is a copy of what P&Y says about Fair Chase
> 
> The Rules of Fair Chase
> 
> ...



Yep, just looked up their website, too.

So, deer shot while face buried in pile of corn, molasses oats, deer cain, etc. in South GA (or Texas, or anywhere else baiting is allowed) = acceptable, but shot at dusk, deep in a pine thicket on the edge of a swamp in North GA, with a nockturnal = ineligible

I also note that, while they have a definition pertaining to let off of a compound bow, I did not see anything in my quick look that actually states what let off is allowed these days...  maybe I missed it.


----------



## DRB1313 (Sep 13, 2013)

Here Ya go.  Not from their site, but a reliable one.


    That changed in mid-November when attendees at the club's annual conference voted 294-148 to change the rule.

    Under the new rule there is no let-off restriction, except that the bow must be legal where the kill was made.


----------



## dgmeadows (Sep 13, 2013)

OK, looked at the P&Y site again.. this one has me puzzled:

"Exclusions:

1. The following shall not be considered a hunting bow:

a) ...
d) No portion of the bow’s riser (handle) or any track, trough, channel or other device that attaches directly to the bow’s riser shall contact, support, and/or guide the arrow from a point rearward of the bow’s brace height."

I assume this is supposed to be outlawing overdraws ?  However most every arrow rest manufactured these days are designed to mount and hold the arrow behind the riser - the Whisker Biscuit, QADs and similar designs "support the arrow from a point rearward of the brace height."


I doubt they actually exclude animals killed with those arrow rests.


----------



## mossyoakpro (Sep 13, 2013)

I would love to one day kill a P&Y but like several folks already stated....I bow hunt because I enjoy the thrill of having an animal within bow range, if I ever am lucky enough to shoot a P&Y I would most likely not have it entered because I see no reason to pay some pinhead money to put my name in a book showing I killed a nice buck.

The mounted head and satisfaction of knowing I accomplished the feat would be enough for me.....JMO


----------



## HuntinDawg89 (Sep 13, 2013)

dgmeadows said:


> As you noted, P&Y rules used to disallow anything greater then 65% let off (by the way, I assume you meant special cams - limbs would not affect let off) but P&Y eventually changed that because virtually every bow made was greater than 65% letoff.



I just know what the dealer told me.  The bow is/was a High Country Four Runner.  I bought it in 1999 and I'm still hunting with it.  The one in stock had too much let off for P&Y at the time.  I told the owner of the shop (Ron at West Georgia Archery, RIP) that I wanted nothing more than 65% letoff and he said he would have to order different limbs from High Country.  I don't know whether the cams were "married" to the limbs so he had to switch out limbs and cams or what, but that is what he told me.



GADawg08 said:


> I think all this nonsense is getting out of hand



As I previously stated, I think P&Y should allow lighted nocks because it only aids in recovery of the game, not making the shot.  However, this "nonsense" is not _getting_ out of hand because it is an old rule.  This is nothing new.  What has happened is that technology has advanced to the point that they should reconsider and/or be more specific.  I think they should make an exception for the nocks, but I don't use them.



dgmeadows said:


> Funny thing is, "Pope and Young buck" has come to mean one that exceeds 125"... not necessarily listed in the book.  I have spoken to many guys who say they killed a P&Y qualifying buck, but never actually took the steps to list it, either because they did not care to, or because their equipment didn't fit the rules.  Still, they refer to it as a P&Y buck.



Yes, they refer to them as P&Y's but that doesn't make it right.  There was a fellow who recently posted a thread about his "P&Y" which was in the subject of the thread, but he killed it with a crossbow.  I didn't butt into his thread and tell him that it shouldn't be referred to as a P&Y but it shouldn't.  Why not shoot it with a rifle and call it a P&Y?  Why not just say "my 130 class crossbow buck"?



dgmeadows said:


> Yep, just looked up their website, too.
> 
> So, deer shot while face buried in pile of corn, molasses oats, deer cain, etc. in South GA (or Texas, or anywhere else baiting is allowed) = acceptable, but shot at dusk, deep in a pine thicket on the edge of a swamp in North GA, with a nockturnal = ineligible



I object to that too.  The only explanation I can give you is that they only have 1 set of rules of fair chase for all species.  While many deer hunters consider it to be unethical to shoot deer over bait, most bear hunters seem to think it is not unethical to shoot bears over bait.  I don't know if that is the reason, but that is all I can figure out.  If they had separate rules of fair chase for different species I would guess baiting would be off limits for deer, elk, etc., but not for bear.  Hunting with dogs would probably be legal for bear and cats, but not some other species maybe.  It seems they have left the baiting question to the law.  Game taken illegally are automatically not eligible.


----------



## BowHard (Sep 13, 2013)

Yea I don't understand it either... But rules are rules. I just took my light off


----------



## kevincox (Sep 14, 2013)

The pope and young entries are basically done by the honor sys. I'm sure there are bucks entered that didn't meet the clubs requirements ,but if someone lies just so they can enter a deer into a club that's pretty sad


----------



## BornToHuntAndFish (Sep 14, 2013)

DRB1313 said:


> Here is a copy of what P&Y says about Fair Chase
> 
> 
> http://www.pope-young.org/bowhunting_fairchase.asp
> ...



Good info.  I copied the web link above for anyone else wanting to dig around for more P&Y details.


----------



## Etoncathunter (Sep 14, 2013)

Well I was scanning their web site and I realized that I don't have to worry about shooting a P&Y buck anyways (not that I could with my luck) lighted nock or no. Their definition of a legal bow must be over 30" long. Since my Mission Craze is either 28" or 29" I'm DQ'd by default. Oh well, I ain't gonna loose any sleep over it.


----------



## kbuck1 (Sep 14, 2013)

HuntinDawg89 said:


> I just know what the dealer told me.  The bow is/was a High Country Four Runner.  I bought it in 1999 and I'm still hunting with it.  The one in stock had too much let off for P&Y at the time.  I told the owner of the shop (Ron at West Georgia Archery, RIP) that I wanted nothing more than 65% letoff and he said he would have to order different limbs from High Country.  I don't know whether the cams were "married" to the limbs so he had to switch out limbs and cams or what, but that is what he told me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 He probably ordered you a new limb decal that said  65 percent let off. Lol. Not new limbs because like posted somewhere above limbs wouldn't effect let off.


----------



## 308 WIN (Sep 14, 2013)

HuntinDawg89 said:


> Personally I wouldn't want any deceit associated with a record book entry bearing my name.



Unfortunately, that thing called ethics is quickly becoming a thing of the past in this world. And a man's good name don't mean what it use to either. Very sad.


----------



## 308 WIN (Sep 14, 2013)

BowHard said:


> rules are rules. I just took my light off



Good for you, for choosing to do it the right way. I don't know how anybody could cheat and lie, and still feel good about their "Pope and Young".

Corse, if you don't choose to enter the book, if it's legal and you want to use it, use it.


----------



## Jim Thompson (Sep 14, 2013)

kevincox said:


> The pope and young entries are basically done by the honor sys. I'm sure there are bucks entered that didn't meet the clubs requirements ,but if someone lies just so they can enter a deer into a club that's pretty sad



Yep.  I couldnt imagine knowing that every time I talked about or recounted the story of a hunt that I would really be lying about it.  Every time...every single time.

Course that applies to any illegally killed animal whether entered in the book or not.  If I had to lie about it for the rest of my life then it sure as hades wouldnt be worth it for me to kill it


----------



## jonhayes (Sep 14, 2013)

You can actually still be entered in the book you are just entered with an astrisk (*) for letoff, and several other legal add-ons.


----------



## HuntinDawg89 (Sep 14, 2013)

kbuck1 said:


> He probably ordered you a new limb decal that said  65 percent let off. Lol. Not new limbs because like posted somewhere above limbs wouldn't effect let off.



I still shoot the bow and I can promise you it doesn't have greater than 65% let off.  Now that it would be OK with P&Y and I'm about 14 years older than when I bought it, I wish it DID have more let off.


----------



## HuntinDawg89 (Sep 14, 2013)

jonhayes said:


> You can actually still be entered in the book you are just entered with an astrisk (*) for letoff, and several other legal add-ons.



Letoff is the only one that I'm aware of, and I'm not sure they even use that for letoff anymore.  Where do they list these other items which are acceptable with an asterisk?


----------



## HuntinDawg89 (Sep 14, 2013)

Jim Thompson said:


> Yep.  I couldnt imagine knowing that every time I talked about or recounted the story of a hunt that I would really be lying about it.  Every time...every single time.
> 
> Course that applies to any illegally killed animal whether entered in the book or not.  If I had to lie about it for the rest of my life then it sure as hades wouldnt be worth it for me to kill it



Well said, and true.


----------



## Rainmaker (Sep 14, 2013)

308 WIN said:


> Unfortunately, that thing called ethics is quickly becoming a thing of the past in this world. And a man's good name don't mean what it use to either. Very sad.



Amen, and I can think of another word that describes a man like that .... sorry! 

Unfortunately, our world is populated by many sorry people. 

In defense of the P&Y organization, they have to draw a line in the sand somewhere. 

We either agree with it and comply, or we move on. It's that simple.


----------

