# Christianity runs into secularism.



## ambush80 (May 15, 2016)

https://baptistnews.com/2016/05/13/seven-things-im-learning-about-transgender-persons/


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## WaltL1 (May 15, 2016)

I give him much respect for trying to educate himself as opposed to well.... see the thread upstairs concerning this same article.


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## ambush80 (May 15, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> I give him much respect for trying to educate himself as opposed to well.... see the thread upstairs concerning this same article.



I ripped it off from upstairs so that I could comment on it.  

The argument is "Don't blame the scripture (whatever scripture it might be) for the misinterpretations its the followers".  It's a bit of a problem that the Left and the Religious Moderates seem to be reinforcing.  By making it difficult to criticize truly bad ideas under the guise of Political Correctness and Inclusivity, the Left and the Religious Moderates have given shelter to the religious zealots like those upstairs instead of facilitating present religions' fade into antiquity like they should.


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## RH Clark (May 15, 2016)

How can we say a person is born with a female body and female chromosomes but a male brain? This statement has nothing to do with science but only feelings and should be dealt with as such. We do not treat other psychiatric abnormalities as if they were physical deformities. For instance ,we don't give liposuction or gastric bypass to individuals suffering from anorexia.

From a Christian standpoint, I will submit that there are individuals born with sexual abnormalities that could benefit from surgery. All this is a result of sin's curse on the world just like any other abnormality like a child born without legs. No, not their sin, not their parents sin, but just that this earth isn't the perfect place God created it to be because of Adam's original sin.

I also feel however that the vast majority of transgender issues aren't due to physical abnormality but from mental disorder. I also feel that we do the individuals a great injustice in embracing their disorder as normal instead of treating it as abnormal.


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## RH Clark (May 15, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I ripped it off from upstairs so that I could comment on it.
> 
> The argument is "Don't blame the scripture (whatever scripture it might be) for the misinterpretations its the followers".  It's a bit of a problem that the Left and the Religious Moderates seem to be reinforcing.  By making it difficult to criticize truly bad ideas under the guise of Political Correctness and Inclusivity, the Left and the Religious Moderates have given shelter to the religious zealots like those upstairs instead of facilitating present religions' fade into antiquity like they should.



Please explain: By making it difficult to criticize truly bad ideas under the guise of Political Correctness and Inclusivity, the Left and the Religious Moderates have given shelter to the religious zealots like those upstairs instead of facilitating present religions' fade into antiquity like they should.[/QUOTE]

 It seems to me you are arguing points from both sides in this statement. To me the "bad ideas under the guise of political correctness" is the move to normalize abnormal behavior and public acceptance of abnormal behavior. How then does this give shelter to religious zealots? It seems to me that it does just the opposite.

Then in the last part of your statement you seem to say that we would be much better off to allow religion to fade into antiquity. Let me ask you this. Do you think this world is a better, safer, more loving world than it was in the 40's and 50's? To me it seems that religious morality has certainly been in the decline since then, and I see it's decline as a great detriment to society in general.


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## bullethead (May 15, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> How can we say a person is born with a female body and female chromosomes but a male brain? This statement has nothing to do with science but only feelings and should be dealt with as such. We do not treat other psychiatric abnormalities as if they were physical deformities. For instance ,we don't give liposuction or gastric bypass to individuals suffering from anorexia.
> 
> From a Christian standpoint, I will submit that there are individuals born with sexual abnormalities that could benefit from surgery. All this is a result of sin's curse on the world just like any other abnormality like a child born without legs. No, not their sin, not their parents sin, but just that this earth isn't the perfect place God created it to be because of Adam's original sin.
> 
> I also feel however that the vast majority of transgender issues aren't due to physical abnormality but from mental disorder. I also feel that we do the individuals a great injustice in embracing their disorder as normal instead of treating it as abnormal.


Why were there  birth defects before adam?


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## bullethead (May 15, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Please explain: By making it difficult to criticize truly bad ideas under the guise of Political Correctness and Inclusivity, the Left and the Religious Moderates have given shelter to the religious zealots like those upstairs instead of facilitating present religions' fade into antiquity like they should.
> 
> It seems to me you are arguing points from both sides in this statement. To me the "bad ideas under the guise of political correctness" is the move to normalize abnormal behavior and public acceptance of abnormal behavior. How then does this give shelter to religious zealots? It seems to me that it does just the opposite.
> 
> Then in the last part of your statement you seem to say that we would be much better off to allow religion to fade into antiquity. Let me ask you this. Do you think this world is a better, safer, more loving world than it was in the 40's and 50's? To me it seems that religious morality has certainly been in the decline since then, and I see it's decline as a great detriment to society in general.


What was the world's religious morals in the 40s and 50s?


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## RH Clark (May 15, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Why were there  birth defects before adam?



Are you serious, or are you just mocking my religious beliefs?

You do know that Adam was the first man?


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## RH Clark (May 15, 2016)

bullethead said:


> What was the world's religious morals in the 40s and 50s?



Possibly I misspoke by saying world instead of just USA.

Do you see no difference between the religious morals of people from then until know? I'm including in that the lack of any religious affiliation and those morals included therein, more so than any variation on the religious principals themselves.


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## ambush80 (May 15, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Please explain: By making it difficult to criticize truly bad ideas under the guise of Political Correctness and Inclusivity, the Left and the Religious Moderates have given shelter to the religious zealots like those upstairs instead of facilitating present religions' fade into antiquity like they should.
> 
> It seems to me you are arguing points from both sides in this statement. To me the "bad ideas under the guise of political correctness" is the move to normalize abnormal behavior and public acceptance of abnormal behavior. How then does this give shelter to religious zealots? It seems to me that it does just the opposite.



You will agree with me if you apply what I said to Muslim Religious Zealots.  Interesting, no?



RH Clark said:


> Then in the last part of your statement you seem to say that we would be much better off to allow religion to fade into antiquity. Let me ask you this. Do you think this world is a better, safer, more loving world than it was in the 40's and 50's? To me it seems that religious morality has certainly been in the decline since then, and I see it's decline as a great detriment to society in general.




I think that the world is better than it was in 1940-50.


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## bullethead (May 15, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Are you serious, or are you just mocking my religious beliefs?
> 
> You do know that Adam was the first man?



Listen, if you think the world is 6000 years old and Adam was the first man that is all on you. If you want to be taken seriously in here you are going to have to face reality. 
You don't seem to give one iota of care to anyone's scientific beliefs based off of facts. 

The truth is your Adam absolutely was not the first man on this planet and saying he was down here and basing your whole arguments off of that will bring you some flack.
Believe what you wish but you will be countered with the facts.


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## bullethead (May 15, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Possibly I misspoke by saying world instead of just USA.
> 
> Do you see no difference between the religious morals of people from then until know? I'm including in that the lack of any religious affiliation and those morals included therein, more so than any variation on the religious principals themselves.


I was not around in the 40's and 50's. I honestly have no idea who had which morals.

What I do know is that for much longer than 6000 years people have been lying, cheating, committing adultry, murdering, raping, and  acting like the human animals we have always been. In the 40's and 50's history shows an anti communist movement was in full force and many people were told god was the answer to destroy communism.
Since the 40's and 50's the country has been opened to a wealth of information and people have been able to make their own decisions.


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## hobbs27 (May 15, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Are you serious, or are you just mocking my religious beliefs?
> 
> You do know that Adam was the first man?



RH, not all bible believing Christians think Adam was the first man. There's been some very good exegetical work done on Genesis that shows Adam was the first man brought into covenant , not first physically created....surely you've wondered how the earth could only be 6000 years old but man dates back further?


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## RH Clark (May 15, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> RH, not all bible believing Christians think Adam was the first man. There's been some very good exegetical work done on Genesis that shows Adam was the first man brought into covenant , not first physically created....surely you've wondered how the earth could only be 6000 years old but man dates back further?



I have some thoughts on the subject but it's not relevant to the discussion about transsexuals, no more so than the question of how sin relates to any disability. 

It's only a sidetrack to purposefully detour from my opinion that most transsexuals suffer from mental disease.


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## RH Clark (May 15, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> You will agree with me if you apply what I said to Muslim Religious Zealots.  Interesting, no?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 I actually would not agree with you. I prefer that each individual be free to determine the way in which they worship or do not worship for that matter. I think the founding fathers had it right. What I do not agree with is the recent move to create a completely Godless society regardless of the will of the majority. Those who wish to worship should be allowed to do so and those who don't shouldn't be allowed to impose their will over the other.

I do not think America is better now than it was in the past. I fear greatly for it's decline in morality.


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## drippin' rock (May 15, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I have some thoughts on the subject but it's not relevant to the discussion about transsexuals, no more so than the question of how sin relates to any disability.
> 
> It's only a sidetrack to purposefully detour from my opinion that most transsexuals suffer from mental disease.



Most suffer from mental illness?  What do the rest suffer from?


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## bullethead (May 15, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I actually would not agree with you. I prefer that each individual be free to determine the way in which they worship or do not worship for that matter. I think the founding fathers had it right. What I do not agree with is the recent move to create a completely Godless society regardless of the will of the majority. Those who wish to worship should be allowed to do so and those who don't shouldn't be allowed to impose their will over the other.
> 
> I do not think America is better now than it was in the past. I fear greatly for it's decline in morality.


From:
http://www.kyroot.com/?p=8#belief


Religious conservatives often sound warnings that if we turn away from God that he will bring down destruction and mayhem. They point to hurricanes, earthquakes, and mass shootings as examples of misfortunes that God is visiting upon us because, for example, we are legitimizing same-sex marriages and allowing abortions.

This is an intriguing hypothesis, but it is totally wrong.  In fact, the reverse is true. The more secular states in the United States, such as Vermont and New Hampshire, rate better in almost all categories of well-being than the most religious states, such as Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama.  Also, the least religious countries in the world, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands, and Australia fare better in almost all measurable characteristics than the most religious countries, including the United States.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...lar-societies-fare-better-religious-societies

The question must be asked: Why should this be?  If God is monitoring the way states and countries conduct their business, why wouldn’t he preferentially administer his grace and protection to those which most effectively worship him and follow his dictates?

This is credible evidence that the God of the Hebrews, and for that matter any god, does not exist.


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## bullethead (May 15, 2016)

Many Christians claim that religion and specifically their brand of religion is necessary for people to have a respectable set of morals, and that without religious faith, people have no moral guide and therefore behave in immoral ways.

This would be good evidence for Christianity if it were true, but It is not. One way to see this is to compare the United States, one of the most religious countries in the world, with Denmark, one of the least religious countries.  When asked the question “Is religion important in your daily life?” 65% in the United States say “yes” while only 18% in Denmark say “yes.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importance_of_religion_by_country

One way to see if Denmark’s lack of religion results in less moral behavior is to look at the crime rate.  The rate of rape (per 1000 persons) is 4 times lower in Denmark than in the United States.  The rate of violent crime is 7 times lower in Denmark.  The murder rate is 5 times lower in Denmark.  Another way to look at the crime rate is to see to what extent the citizens arm themselves.  In the United States there are 89 guns per 100 residents versus 12 per 100 residents in Denmark.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Denmark/United-States/Crime

The following is a quote from Sam Harris:

If religion were the only durable foundation for morality you would suspect atheists to be really badly behaved. You would go to a group like the National Academy of Sciences. These are the most elite scientists, 93 percent of whom reject the idea of God. You would expect these guys to be raping and killing and stealing with abandon.

It should be obvious that belief in Christianity does not make people more moral than those who do not believe in gods.  In fact, a case can be made for the opposite.  The failure of Christianity to impart morality is evidence that it is not a product of a supernatural deity.

(93) The hypocrisy of the typical Christian

There is evidence that the typical Christian has a compartment in the brain where religious beliefs are stored and which does not communicate with other areas of the brain associated with patterns, logic, and critical thinking. The failure of this neural passageway results in unrecognized hypocritical ideas. The following is taken from:

http://www.evilbible.com/Top_Ten_List.htm

entitled “Top 10 Signs You Are a Fundamentalist Christian:”

10 – You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

9 – You feel insulted and “dehumanized” when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

8 - You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

7 – Your face turns purple when you hear of the “atrocities” attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in “Exodus” and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in “Joshua” including women, children, and trees!

6 – You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

5 – You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

4 – You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs — though excluding those in all rival sects – will spend Eternity in an infinite H3ll of Suffering.  And yet consider your religion the most “tolerant” and “loving.”

 3 – While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in “tongues” may be all the evidence you need to “prove” Christianity.

2 – You define 0.01% as a “high success rate” when it comes to answered prayers.  You consider that to be evidence that prayer works.  And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

1 – You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history – but still call yourself a Christian.

It is difficult to step outside of ourselves and see us as others do, but this is a necessary step to achieve a knowledge of objective reality. Otherwise, we are burdened with thoughts and ideas that have been hardwired in our brains by our parents, friends, teachers, and pastors, as well as the limited range of our personal experiences.  It is evident that many Christians are in this situation- belief based on the imprint of others as opposed to the free exercise of critical thought.


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## drippin' rock (May 16, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> https://baptistnews.com/2016/05/13/seven-things-im-learning-about-transgender-persons/




This preacher seems to be taking the blinders off, but he is still trying to square his questions with God as the answer. 

Not surprising to see by the responses upstairs most blinders remain riveted and superglued.


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## drippin' rock (May 16, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> How can we say a person is born with a female body and female chromosomes but a male brain? This statement has nothing to do with science but only feelings and should be dealt with as such. We do not treat other psychiatric abnormalities as if they were physical deformities. For instance ,we don't give liposuction or gastric bypass to individuals suffering from anorexia.
> 
> From a Christian standpoint, I will submit that there are individuals born with sexual abnormalities that could benefit from surgery. All this is a result of sin's curse on the world just like any other abnormality like a child born without legs. No, not their sin, not their parents sin, but just that this earth isn't the perfect place God created it to be because of Adam's original sin.
> 
> I also feel however that the vast majority of transgender issues aren't due to physical abnormality but from mental disorder. I also feel that we do the individuals a great injustice in embracing their disorder as normal instead of treating it as abnormal.



*A child born with no legs is due to Adam's original sin. *

Attention scientists and researchers of the world. We have the answer.  You can go home now.


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## RH Clark (May 16, 2016)

bullethead said:


> From:
> http://www.kyroot.com/?p=8#belief
> 
> 
> ...



I do not hold that view. Not all Christians are the same. God is not sending tornadoes or hurricanes, or any destruction upon the unrighteous. God has given the world over to man and will not intervene unless called upon in faith.

I do not refer to any destruction from God as our decline but simply our own allowance of our own immorality as a destructive force to society.


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## RH Clark (May 16, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Many Christians claim that religion and specifically their brand of religion is necessary for people to have a respectable set of morals, and that without religious faith, people have no moral guide and therefore behave in immoral ways.
> 
> This would be good evidence for Christianity if it were true, but It is not. One way to see this is to compare the United States, one of the most religious countries in the world, with Denmark, one of the least religious countries.  When asked the question “Is religion important in your daily life?” 65% in the United States say “yes” while only 18% in Denmark say “yes.”
> 
> ...



I've never claimed that only Christians are moral. What I'm saying is that for whatever reason this country is less moral than it was in the 40's and 50's. I do believe that part of that is a result of attacks upon Christian values from the left, but to think that only a Christian can have morals is asinine. I do think there has been a near celebration of immorality in this country as of late.


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## bullethead (May 16, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I've never claimed that only Christians are moral. What I'm saying is that for whatever reason this country is less moral than it was in the 40's and 50's. I do believe that part of that is a result of attacks upon Christian values from the left, but to think that only a Christian can have morals is asinine. I do think there has been a near celebration of immorality in this country as of late.


Which was a more moral time, the 40's and 50's or 70 years prior to them? What about 70 years prior to 1875? Was it when the mayflower landed and the quest to eradicate the native Americans started or was it when the citizens of the country were drowning witches up in Salem?
What time in history was the earth filled with the most morals and why was it so?

And if christians are not exclusive to morality where does everyone else get their morals from?


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## WaltL1 (May 16, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I've never claimed that only Christians are moral. What I'm saying is that for whatever reason this country is less moral than it was in the 40's and 50's. I do believe that part of that is a result of attacks upon Christian values from the left, but to think that only a Christian can have morals is asinine. I do think there has been a near celebration of immorality in this country as of late.


Kind of depends on who you are and what you consider to be moral doesn't it?
Black folks, women, gay folks etc might have a different viewpoint.


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## WaltL1 (May 16, 2016)

drippin' rock said:


> *A child born with no legs is due to Adam's original sin. *
> 
> Attention scientists and researchers of the world. We have the answer.  You can go home now.


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## JB0704 (May 16, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> Kind of depends on who you are and what you consider to be moral doesn't it?
> Black folks, women, gay folks etc might have a different viewpoint.



In light of the recent transgender stuff, we can take this a step further........what if a person identifies with an alternative race, can they now access the same protected minority status as those who are genetically defined as such?  How about somebody saying they always felt like a native American so they should also be allowed to hunt and fish year round on the reservation?

We can take morals out of a lot of these discussions and still have logical reasons to keep the status quo intact.   I have said this before, but in many cases the "rules" make a lot of sense.


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## bullethead (May 16, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> Kind of depends on who you are and what you consider to be moral doesn't it?
> Black folks, women, gay folks etc might have a different viewpoint.


Excellent point


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## bullethead (May 16, 2016)

JB0704 said:


> In light of the recent transgender stuff, we can take this a step further........what if a person identifies with an alternative race, can they now access the same protected minority status as those who are genetically defined as such?  How about somebody saying they always felt like a native American so they should also be allowed to hunt and fish year round on the reservation?
> 
> We can take morals out of a lot of these discussions and still have logical reasons to keep the status quo intact.   I have said this before, but in many cases the "rules" make a lot of sense.


I believe Walts reply was to the countries morals back in the 40's and 50s and his points were spot on.

Your post above is spot on regarding today's day and age. I do not think rules need to be made to accommodate everybody's lifestyle,wishes, wants and desires.
Don't get me wrong, if someone feels they are  a different gender I am not going to make fun of their feelings. I might give a strange look inside a restroom if a 6ft "chick" is next to me at a urinal, but if you have the equipment use the facility made for it.
Smokers are regulated to stand outside in all sorts of weather to feed their need. If someone is unsure as to whether or not they should stand up or sit down to pee maybe an app for local job johnny locations would be a good idea to have on their smartphone.


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## 660griz (May 16, 2016)

Thanks to the moral decline, we now have waaay more witches than back in the 1600s. Oh, and waaay more free people. Women working. When will it stop!?


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## RH Clark (May 16, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


>



What a nice welcome, laugh it up at the stupid Christian, but remember I didn't come in here judging anyone nor mocking them for their beliefs.


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## bullethead (May 16, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> What a nice welcome, laugh it up at the stupid Christian, but remember I didn't come in here judging anyone nor mocking them for their beliefs.


How about coming here to give answers to the legitimate questions you get asked regarding the statements that you wilfully make?
Ie, support your position.


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## JB0704 (May 16, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> What a nice welcome, laugh it up at the stupid Christian, but remember I didn't come in here judging anyone nor mocking them for their beliefs.



These are good folks down here, RH.   Just gotta take 1 Pet 3:15 seriously when you step inside, cause they will challenge everything.  And I personally believe that's a good thing for my faith.  If I can't defend it, why do I have it?


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## JB0704 (May 16, 2016)

bullethead said:


> I believe Walts reply was to the countries morals back in the 40's and 50s and his points were spot on.



I understand, I was just using his point to take it all in another direction I have been thinking about a lot lately.  Progress can be very good (todays treatment of women and minorities compared to 70 years ago), and it can be taken too far which is kind-of where we are headed today.  



bullethead said:


> Your post above is spot on regarding today's day and age. I do not think rules need to be made to accommodate everybody's lifestyle,wishes, wants and desires.
> Don't get me wrong, if someone feels they are  a different gender I am not going to make fun of their feelings. I might give a strange look inside a restroom if a 6ft "chick" is next to me at a urinal, but if you have the equipment use the facility made for it.
> Smokers are regulated to stand outside in all sorts of weather to feed their need. If someone is unsure as to whether or not they should stand up or sit down to pee maybe an app for local job johnny locations would be a good idea to have on their smartphone.


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## RH Clark (May 16, 2016)

JB0704 said:


> These are good folks down here, RH.   Just gotta take 1 Pet 3:15 seriously when you step inside, cause they will challenge everything.  And I personally believe that's a good thing for my faith.  If I can't defend it, why do I have it?



That's fine but I see a group that would be very welcoming to a man who acts like a woman, but a Christian is to be scoffed at and ridiculed. Unfortunately that's the world we now live in. My feelings aren't hurt, but I still think it's a valid observation.


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## ambush80 (May 16, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> That's fine but I see a group that would be very welcoming to a man who acts like a woman, but a Christian is to be scoffed at and ridiculed. Unfortunately that's the world we now live in. My feelings aren't hurt, but I still think it's a valid observation.



The group of guys I play tennis with is pretty friendly.  We hang out, we have each other over for parties, we help each other out and we celebrate with each other for birthdays and special occasions.  A couple of the guys are gay. One of them married his boyfriend and invited us all, spouses and children included, to his house to celebrate.  I can't imagine being the kind of person that would tell a good friend that I couldn't support him because of the Guy in the Sky.  It's inconceivable.  

What are you worshiping?


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## drippin' rock (May 16, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> That's fine but I see a group that would be very welcoming to a man who acts like a woman, but a Christian is to be scoffed at and ridiculed. Unfortunately that's the world we now live in. My feelings aren't hurt, but I still think it's a valid observation.



Men that act like women make me uncomfortable. I don't like being around them. 

Christians that think the Flood actually happened make me uncomfortable. I don't like being around them. 

I don't condemn either one.


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## RH Clark (May 16, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> The group of guys I play tennis with is pretty friendly.  We hang out, we have each other over for parties, we help each other out and we celebrate with each other for birthdays and special occasions.  A couple of the guys are gay. One of them married his boyfriend and invited us all, spouses and children included, to his house to celebrate.  I can't imagine being the kind of person that would tell a good friend that I couldn't support him because of the Guy in the Sky.  It's inconceivable.
> 
> What are you worshiping?



Again I tell you that not all Christians are the same. In fact I spend more time arguing with Christians than with any other group. Most Christians don't have a clue about the dictates of their faith. They are just as bigoted, hateful, fearful, and judgmental, as anyone with no religious affiliation.

I view homosexuality as a sin but I don't classify it any more egregious as many other sins. The homosexual is no more sinful than the adulterer.

I actually have some gay friends. My best friend growing up married his high school sweetheart. We had been friends for years. She had an affair on him with another woman and ended the marriage. It took me a little time to get over the anger of the affair, but I'm now friends with the woman and her partner. We aren't really close but that's more of a result of her being my best friends EX than her sexual preference.

I would still tell her that her lifestyle is wrong if a situation came up where we could talk about it in such a manner that she would be receptive to what I would say, but it wouldn't be the conversation starter. Her sin wouldn't keep me from being her friend any more than if another friend drank too much. I don't however applaud and encourage her lifestyle any more than I would buy alcohol for my friend with the drinking problem.


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## RH Clark (May 16, 2016)

drippin' rock said:


> Men that act like women make me uncomfortable. I don't like being around them.
> 
> Christians that think the Flood actually happened make me uncomfortable. I don't like being around them.
> 
> I don't condemn either one.



Unless it was the topic of conversation anyone ranting about their religious beliefs makes me a bit wary as well. On the other hand the guy in the dress is sort of in my face already.


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## WaltL1 (May 16, 2016)

JB0704 said:


> In light of the recent transgender stuff, we can take this a step further........what if a person identifies with an alternative race, can they now access the same protected minority status as those who are genetically defined as such?  How about somebody saying they always felt like a native American so they should also be allowed to hunt and fish year round on the reservation?
> 
> We can take morals out of a lot of these discussions and still have logical reasons to keep the status quo intact.   I have said this before, but in many cases the "rules" make a lot of sense.


See Bullet's response above.
And that Native American thing you mentioned above is a fine idea. This might just be the perfect time to give that a shot


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## WaltL1 (May 16, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> What a nice welcome, laugh it up at the stupid Christian, but remember I didn't come in here judging anyone nor mocking them for their beliefs.


I wasn't laughing at you. I thought DRs joke was funny.
You might want to put your big girl panties on when you come in here or you are going to be unnecessarily offended frequently.


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## RH Clark (May 16, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> I wasn't laughing at you. I thought DRs joke was funny.
> You might want to put your big girl panties on when you come in here or you are going to be unnecessarily offended frequently.



I already said my feelings weren't hurt. I was simply pointing out the attitude most atheists take toward Christians. As far as my big girl panties, I'll leave those to the weirdoes who are confused about which bathroom to use.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 16, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> That's fine but I see a group that would be very welcoming to a man who acts like a woman, but a Christian is to be scoffed at and ridiculed. Unfortunately that's the world we now live in. My feelings aren't hurt, but I still think it's a valid observation.


Insert the A/A version of "We ridicule the sin not the sinner" here.
But at least we don't burn you at the stake or relegate you to an eternity of torture for your beliefs.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 16, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I already said my feelings weren't hurt. I was simply pointing out the attitude most atheists take toward Christians. As far as my big girl panties, I'll leave those to the weirdoes who are confused about which bathroom to use.


So far in all the conversations youve participated in, you have conversed with one (1) Atheist.
And you probably don't even know who that is because we focus on what is said not what your label is.


----------



## bullethead (May 16, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> That's fine but I see a group that would be very welcoming to a man who acts like a woman, but a Christian is to be scoffed at and ridiculed. Unfortunately that's the world we now live in. My feelings aren't hurt, but I still think it's a valid observation.


Lighten up Francis!
The Christians are represented in here 99.9% of the time, and that is why so much discussion is towards them. Is it too much to ask a person that makes a claim to back it up with facts?
For a group that is constantly anti and pointing fingers, why are you so shocked when fingers get pointed back?


----------



## RH Clark (May 16, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Lighten up Francis!
> The Christians are represented in here 99.9% of the time, and that is why so much discussion is towards them. Is it too much to ask a person that makes a claim to back it up with facts?
> For a group that is constantly anti and pointing fingers, why are you so shocked when fingers get pointed back?



I'm fine my friend. Thanks for the concern though.


----------



## RH Clark (May 16, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> So far in all the conversations youve participated in, you have conversed with one (1) Atheist.
> And you probably don't even know who that is because we focus on what is said not what your label is.



You're right, it's not fair of me to lump the atheists here together with those I've encountered in the past. The same thing happens on the other side as well though. A holy roller tells an atheist they are going to CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored and then all Christians are regarded as the same. Not all Christians are Westboro Baptists. I find their actions deplorable yet several posts here addressed to me are worded as if I held those same views.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 16, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> You're right, it's not fair of me to lump the atheists here together with those I've encountered in the past. The same thing happens on the other side as well though. A holy roller tells an atheist they are going to CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored and then all Christians are regarded as the same. Not all Christians are Westboro Baptists. I find their actions deplorable yet several posts here addressed to me are worded as if I held those same views.


There is something you are going to have to come terms with -
You belong to a club with certain beliefs. Those beliefs include punishment, denial of certain rights, support/creation of laws against those who aren't in your club. Your club isn't happy to practice your beliefs on your own, you want to force feed those beliefs on others.
Atheists don't believe in deities. The end.
They aren't trying to stop you from believing, they aren't trying to make you teach evolution in christian schools, they aren't trying to force you to buy beer on sunday.
I assure you noone here puts you on par with the ignorant pieces of crap at Westboro.
But this isn't Woodstock or the summer of love either. There are strong feelings going in opposite directions and sometimes the debate gets heated.
You have one side who has a thought process of evidence, logic and proof. The other side has faith, personal belief and a completely opposite mindset.
Under those circumstances I think we do a pretty darn good job of strongly disagreeing without resorting to personal insults. The mods don't have to get involved, nobody has to be warned and nobody gets banned. There are subjects that the mods have had to outlaw upstairs because you Christians lose your minds and attack and personally insult EACH OTHER.
Maybe what you don't know is that we occasionally get the rabid A/A come in here and start the Christians are stupid stuff and we run them off right quick.
A/As and Christians from this forum have gone hunting and fishing together, had a great time and then the next day get right back to debating.
In the end, if the crap hits the fan, you might be suprised who is standing next to you and who has deserted you.


----------



## 660griz (May 16, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> There is something you are going to have to come terms with -
> You belong to a club with certain beliefs. Those beliefs include punishment, denial of certain rights, support/creation of laws against those who aren't in your club. Your club isn't happy to practice your beliefs on your own, you want to force feed those beliefs on others.
> Atheists don't believe in deities. The end.
> They aren't trying to stop you from believing, they aren't trying to make you teach evolution in christian schools, they aren't trying to force you to buy beer on sunday.
> ...



Well said Walt. I tear'ed up a little.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (May 16, 2016)

Not me, I don't like anyone.


----------



## bullethead (May 16, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I'm fine my friend. Thanks for the concern though.



RHC, I'd buy ya beer or whatever beverage of choice you'd prefer if we ever met. I don't mean anything disrespectful and I'm glad you didn't take it that way.
Anytime I can use a reference from Stripes I have to take advantage of it.


----------



## ambush80 (May 16, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> There is something you are going to have to come terms with -
> You belong to a club with certain beliefs. Those beliefs include punishment, denial of certain rights, support/creation of laws against those who aren't in your club. Your club isn't happy to practice your beliefs on your own, you want to force feed those beliefs on others.
> Atheists don't believe in deities. The end.
> They aren't trying to stop you from believing, they aren't trying to make you teach evolution in christian schools, they aren't trying to force you to buy beer on sunday.
> ...




Beautifully said, Walt.

One point I'd like to make is that people can say things or believe things that are truly stupid and not be stupid people.  

Talking to Zeus is truly stupid.  I can't think of anyone that would not think so.  The same goes for Poseidon, Mars, Hera, Ra, Isis, Vishnu.....Oh....see what happened there?    When I said Vishnu some people might say "Hey now.  That's not stupid.  Some people really believe in Vishnu and take their belief very seriously.  You shouldn't call talking to Vishnu stupid."  Why is talking to Vishnu any less stupid than talking to Zeus.  I think you get my point.

I don't think it's inappropriate to say that believing that the Earth is 6,000-10,000 years old is truly stupid.  The act of believing that is stupid, the person believing it may not be stupid.  There could be another set of things causing them to think that way but the thought itself is stupid.


----------



## ambush80 (May 16, 2016)

bullethead said:


> I believe Walts reply was to the countries morals back in the 40's and 50s and his points were spot on.
> 
> Your post above is spot on regarding today's day and age. I do not think rules need to be made to accommodate everybody's lifestyle,wishes, wants and desires.
> Don't get me wrong, if someone feels they are  a different gender I am not going to make fun of their feelings. I might give a strange look inside a restroom if a 6ft "chick" is next to me at a urinal, but if you have the equipment use the facility made for it.
> Smokers are regulated to stand outside in all sorts of weather to feed their need. If someone is unsure as to whether or not they should stand up or sit down to pee maybe an app for local job johnny locations would be a good idea to have on their smartphone.



I don't recall you ever getting involved in the thread talking about bathrooms but would you really prefer a tranny in full drag, pulling down his pantyhose, hiking up his dress and peeing next to you in the urinal?


----------



## RH Clark (May 16, 2016)

bullethead said:


> RHC, I'd buy ya beer or whatever beverage of choice you'd prefer if we ever met. I don't mean anything disrespectful and I'm glad you didn't take it that way.
> Anytime I can use a reference from Stripes I have to take advantage of it.



I mostly prefer Mexican beer and I'll buy the next round.

I honestly don't have any hurt feelings with any of you guys. I have just been trying to point out that each individual should be judged as an individual and not as a member of a stereotype.What makes a Christian to me is likely a lot different than what some might think.


----------



## RH Clark (May 16, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> There is something you are going to have to come terms with -
> You belong to a club with certain beliefs. Those beliefs include punishment, denial of certain rights, support/creation of laws against those who aren't in your club. Your club isn't happy to practice your beliefs on your own, you want to force feed those beliefs on others.
> Atheists don't believe in deities. The end.
> They aren't trying to stop you from believing, they aren't trying to make you teach evolution in christian schools, they aren't trying to force you to buy beer on sunday.
> ...



Walt, you have a right to feel that way but I would prefer you get to know me better before putting me in what you consider the Christian club. It's more than likely that I despise a lot of the same things you do about that club.


----------



## RH Clark (May 16, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I don't recall you ever getting involved in the thread talking about bathrooms but would you really prefer a tranny in full drag, pulling down his pantyhose, hiking up his dress and peeing next to you in the urinal?



No not really, but I think I prefer him being next to me than next to my wife or daughter.


----------



## bullethead (May 16, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I don't recall you ever getting involved in the thread talking about bathrooms but would you really prefer a tranny in full drag, pulling down his pantyhose, hiking up his dress and peeing next to you in the urinal?


I keep my eyes straight ahead no matter who is next to me. I'd prefer a tyranny use the stall that way everyone in the restroom gets their business done with only mildly awkward privacy. But that's just my version of an ideal situation.
I certainly would rather have someone equipped with man's parts to use the men's room. I don't have a daughter but I'd be VERY uncomfortable watching a daughter or any young girl, young lady, grown woman go into the ladies room while I wait outside and one minute later watch a tyranny walk in the same room.
And, if a chick is looking butchy, as long as she has her original parts by all means use them where others that have the same parts are using theirs.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (May 16, 2016)

bullethead said:


> I keep my eyes straight ahead no matter who is next to me. I'd prefer a tyranny use the stall that way everyone in the restroom gets their business done with only mildly awkward privacy. But that's just my version of an ideal situation.
> I certainly would rather have someone equipped with man's parts to use the men's room. I don't have a daughter but I'd be VERY uncomfortable watching a daughter or any young girl, young lady, grown woman go into the ladies room while I wait outside and one minute later watch a tyranny walk in the same room.
> And, if a chick is looking butchy, as long as she has her original parts by all means use them where others that have the same parts are using theirs.



If she looks butchy, how do you know it's not a man in drag?


----------



## bullethead (May 16, 2016)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> If she looks butchy, how do you know it's not a man in drag?


Adams apple.
Or if she's carrying a package and doesn't work for UPS. ....

Like anything else, nothing is 100% foolproof, but the majority of people follow the rules society sets and I can only hope for the best.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (May 16, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Adams apple.
> Or if she's carrying a package and doesn't work for UPS. ....
> 
> Like anything else, nothing is 100% foolproof, but the majority of people follow the rules society sets and I can only hope for the best.



Okay, Adam's apple violates no one's rights, but who checks Betty to see if she's really Barney? A cop, who has to be called and pulled off of other duty to do a spot check. 

Valuable allocation of time that is not.


----------



## bullethead (May 16, 2016)

I've read that .02% of the population identifies themselves as transgender.
I have seen men dressed as women while out in public. I have never been in a men's room when a fully dressed up tranny was also in there. My guess is that they go to the bathroom somewhere just like everyone else, and if they think they are a woman they go three times more than any man I know(lol)....but before this national transgender bathroom thing has taken place I have never been in a situation where a tranny was in the same bathroom as me. At 46 years of age I've lived at least half a lifetime without the occurrence and may never have it happen if I live another 46yrs.


----------



## bullethead (May 16, 2016)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Okay, Adam's apple violates no one's rights, but who checks Betty to see if she's really Barney? A cop, who has to be called and pulled off of other duty to do a spot check.
> 
> Valuable allocation of time that is not.


Seriously, I don't know.
Honestly, I'm not that worried about it.
If someone who happens to be of the opposite sex has used a restroom that i was also using, kudos to them, they did not make a theatrical debut about it.
If a guy is in a woman's restroom and is doing propeller impersonations...I hope a law officer hauls him out and it would be time appropriately well spent.


----------



## ambush80 (May 16, 2016)

bullethead said:


> I keep my eyes straight ahead no matter who is next to me. I'd prefer a tyranny use the stall that way everyone in the restroom gets their business done with only mildly awkward privacy. But that's just my version of an ideal situation.
> I certainly would rather have someone equipped with man's parts to use the men's room. I don't have a daughter but I'd be VERY uncomfortable watching a daughter or any young girl, young lady, grown woman go into the ladies room while I wait outside and one minute later watch a tyranny walk in the same room.
> And, if a chick is looking butchy, as long as she has her original parts by all means use them where others that have the same parts are using theirs.



You'd rather have this guy go into the men's room?  He's about 7 feet tall in heels..


----------



## bullethead (May 16, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> You'd rather have this guy go into the men's room?  He's about 7 feet tall in heels..



There are plenty of things I'd rather not have happened at all, but....

If shaqille-bertneal gotta go he gotta go, and yeah, I'd rather him in a men's room to do it.

Plus I'd have something very interesting to talk about as soon as I got back to whatever I was doing before nature called.

It's impossible to account for every possible scenario.


----------



## drippin' rock (May 16, 2016)

I'd like to go on record here and say I truly don't care about bathroomgate. This is a non issue. It will work itself out with time.

Every generation points to its youth and or current events and wails about the loss of morality. This too will work itself out. 


One last observation- Christians love, LOVE to play the victim. It's always about what they are losing or slights against their beliefs. Way I see it the rest of society is demanding a seat at the table.  This too will work itself out.


----------



## bullethead (May 16, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> You'd rather have this guy go into the men's room?  He's about 7 feet tall in heels..



Plus, having that walk into a men's room and then back out would be a good sign for any single and straight man to NOT ask for a phone number.
That same 7ft blonde walking out of a dimly lit nightclub woman's restroom would have half the guys who've had a few drinks unsure whether to ask her out or at least bring her home to change the light bulbs in the ceiling fans.

I'd rather know what's up before finding out WHAT'S UP.


----------



## bullethead (May 16, 2016)

drippin' rock said:


> I'd like to go on record here and say I truly don't care about bathroomgate. This is a non issue. It will work itself out with time.
> 
> Every generation points to its youth and or current events and wails about the loss of morality. This too will work itself out.
> 
> ...


Yep, our parents say their childhoods were the best, I thought growing up in 70s and 80s was top notch, my kids think the 90s and 2000s could not be topped. We all worked out.


----------



## ambush80 (May 16, 2016)

drippin' rock said:


> I'd like to go on record here and say I truly don't care about bathroomgate. This is a non issue. It will work itself out with time.
> 
> Every generation points to its youth and or current events and wails about the loss of morality. This too will work itself out.
> 
> ...





bullethead said:


> Yep, our parents say their childhoods were the best, I thought growing up in 70s and 80s was top notch, my kids think the 90s and 2000s could not be topped. We all worked out.



I completely agree.


----------



## RH Clark (May 16, 2016)

bullethead said:


> There are plenty of things I'd rather not have happened at all, but....
> 
> If shaqille-bertneal gotta go he gotta go, and yeah, I'd rather him in a men's room to do it.
> 
> ...



I agree with you. I think the fuss is more about men wanting to protect their wives and daughters from being subjected to whatever they might see or even what might be done to them by a man in the bathroom with them. I doubt if many men care who comes into the bathroom with them.

What I mostly object to is the administration pushing what wasn't even an issue to further an agenda. Unless I'm mistaken there wasn't a great outcry from trans genders who weren't allowed to use the bathroom in public. IMHO it's more about pushing the agenda to make everyone acknowledge abnormal behavior as normal and accepted.


----------



## bullethead (May 16, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I agree with you. I think the fuss is more about men wanting to protect their wives and daughters from being subjected to whatever they might see or even what might be done to them by a man in the bathroom with them. I doubt if many men care who comes into the bathroom with them.
> 
> What I mostly object to is the administration pushing what wasn't even an issue to further an agenda. Unless I'm mistaken there wasn't a great outcry from trans genders who weren't allowed to use the bathroom in public. IMHO it's more about pushing the agenda to make everyone acknowledge abnormal behavior as normal and accepted.


Yes.
Lately in quite a few instances, the entire population is expected to change ways for a handful of others...half of which are perfectly fine with things as they are.
Bathroomgate being the latest. .02% of the entire country consider themselves transgender, and only a small amount of that small amount want things changed.


----------



## ambush80 (May 16, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Yes.
> Lately in quite a few instances, the entire population is expected to change ways for a handful of others...half of which are perfectly fine with things as they are.
> Bathroomgate being the latest. .02% of the entire country consider themselves transgender, and only a small amount of that small amount want things changed.



But that small amount has caused massive blow back in the form of armageddonism.  The small amout want a gerder neutral stall, like that woman in the TED talk.


----------



## bullethead (May 16, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> But that small amount has caused massive blow back in the form of armageddonism.  The small amout want a gerder neutral stall, like that woman in the TED talk.


I'd be more apt to give a lot more people whatever they wanted as long as THEY pay for it. Too often they want their lives made easier at the expense of others.
.02% of the population just doesn't garner enough of my care especially when it's just a small percent of that small percent making the demands.

I'd almost concede painting some sort of transgender sign on a stall but then what happens with the seven handicapped transgender people in the country?
We NEED to have a transgender handicapped stall next to the transgender stall in every building INCASE one pops in because nature is calling.
No telling  what concessions need be made if a gay, hatian, intervenous drug using transgender cripple has to pee.


Restrooms -->  MEN  WOMEN
pick one according to your equipment.


----------



## ambush80 (May 16, 2016)

bullethead said:


> I'd be more apt to give a lot more people whatever they wanted as long as THEY pay for it. Too often they want their lives made easier at the expense of others.
> .02% of the population just doesn't garner enough of my care especially when it's just a small percent of that small percent making the demands.
> 
> I'd almost concede painting some sort of transgender sign on a stall but then what happens with the seven handicapped transgender people in the country?
> ...



You can use that stall too if you really want to.  I like the handicapped stall at The Atlanta Botanical Gardens.  It's big.


----------



## bullethead (May 16, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> You can use that stall too if you really want to.  I like the handicapped stall at The Atlanta Botanical Gardens.  It's big.


Ohhh Nooo, no sharing stalls for me I want a stall for middle aged, slightly balding, beer bellied, Polish-German-Lithuanian Americans with bad knees. I couldn't live with the guilt if I was in a TG stall and a 7ft blonde was in an intestinal battle with a bean burrito and had nowhere else to go.
What's the phone number for Fox News....I smell a press conference.


----------



## RH Clark (May 16, 2016)

The economical decision, and I think most likely outcome is more and more public bathrooms converting to single occupancy. More room for the store and who cares what you are by yourself.


----------



## bullethead (May 16, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> The economical decision, and I think most likely outcome is more and more public bathrooms converting to single occupancy. More room for the store and who cares what you are by yourself.



Yep


----------



## JB0704 (May 16, 2016)

Single occupancy is a lot better than Chester doing his business in front of little girls.  Still, even that puts everybody out to accommodate a few.  It's just a dang bathroom, just go where the gear sez you oughtta go.

Like is said before, who's to say we can't identify as an alternative race?  Is that any different than this?


----------



## WaltL1 (May 17, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Beautifully said, Walt.
> 
> One point I'd like to make is that people can say things or believe things that are truly stupid and not be stupid people.
> 
> ...


Agreed.
I haven't conversed with anybody on here that I thought was "stupid".
On the flip side I've heard what in my opinion are some really "stupid" statements.
Stupid meaning void of any intelligent thought or common sense applied to that particular statement.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 17, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Walt, you have a right to feel that way but I would prefer you get to know me better before putting me in what you consider the Christian club. It's more than likely that I despise a lot of the same things you do about that club.


"I" didn't put you in the Christian club.
You put you in the Christian club.
However I am aware that that can put you between a rock and a hard place. Christianity às you pointed out has some despicable ideas to go along with belief in the Christian god.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 17, 2016)

bullethead said:


> I've read that .02% of the population identifies themselves as transgender.
> I have seen men dressed as women while out in public. I have never been in a men's room when a fully dressed up tranny was also in there. My guess is that they go to the bathroom somewhere just like everyone else, and if they think they are a woman they go three times more than any man I know(lol)....but before this national transgender bathroom thing has taken place I have never been in a situation where a tranny was in the same bathroom as me. At 46 years of age I've lived at least half a lifetime without the occurrence and may never have it happen if I live another 46yrs.



When you get to my age that women going 3 times as much as a man drops down to about 1.8 as many times as much as a man.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 17, 2016)

JB0704 said:


> Single occupancy is a lot better than Chester doing his business in front of little girls.  Still, even that puts everybody out to accommodate a few.  It's just a dang bathroom, just go where the gear sez you oughtta go.
> 
> Like is said before, who's to say we can't identify as an alternative race?  Is that any different than this?


I'm still trying to figure out when/how this even became such a hot topic. At .02% of the population it's not like there was a million man identifies as a woman march in DC or anything


----------



## JB0704 (May 17, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> I'm still trying to figure out when/how this even became such a hot topic. At .02% of the population it's not like there was a million man identifies as a woman march in DC or anything



I'm not sure, so I will use my default position and blame Obama


----------



## Israel (May 17, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> I'm still trying to figure out when/how this even became such a hot topic. At .02% of the population it's not like there was a million man identifies as a woman march in DC or anything


Bread and circuses.


----------



## bullethead (May 17, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> When you get to my age that women going 3 times as much as a man drops down to about 1.8 as many times as much as a man.


Lol, and ,get that checked!


----------



## bullethead (May 18, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Let me ask you this. Do you think this world is a better, safer, more loving world than it was in the 40's and 50's? To me it seems that religious morality has certainly been in the decline since then, and I see it's decline as a great detriment to society in general.


I saw this today and felt it fitting.
The Christian Myth of America’s Moral Decay
 4 hours ago | Updated 3 hours ago
John Pavlovitz Pastor and Writer

JOHN PAVLOVITZ
“This country is in moral decline. I just wish we would return to our Christian values and turn back to God.”

I came across this comment on a social media thread tonight, and as a Christian it made me more than a bit nauseous. I hear this sentiment from fellow believers often, and whenever I do I always wonder just what “Christian values” they’d like America to return to:

To women not being able to vote?

To people owning slaves?

To segregation?

To street pistol duels and packs of vigilantes meting out justice in the town square?

To organized crime running urban police forces?

To women being marital property?

Are these the “ol’ time religion” days these folks openly pine for; the days when America was apparently so much more reverent, so much more righteous, so much more Godly than it is today?

This idea of our country’s present moral decay has become a go-to Evangelical Christian trope for decades; an attempt at a literal self-fulfilling prophecy, where the world is falling hopelessly apart and the Church is the lone, faithful remnant standing in the face of the heathen culture’s rebellion. Much like Noah, these religious people imagine themselves sole builders of the only safe place from God’s coming wrath; the waters of dread surely and swiftly rising.

But the truth is America is not in decline any more than at any time in its history. This is just lazy religious-speak that seeks to paint the picture of everything being terrible so it can name drop the “Last Days” and leverage the ensuing fear such language invariably creates in suggestible God-fearing folk.

Only everything isn’t terrible—at least not more terrible:

People have always been bigoted, petty, and ignorant, they just all didn’t have free, 24-hour self-promotion machines where they could advertise as much on a regular basis.

There have always been corrupt governments, contemptible politicians, and hypocritical religious leaders, only now we have more people armed with the resources to unearth and expose them.

Gross injustices against the poor, the LGBTQ community, women, immigrants, and people of color have existed since America was a newborn. We just didn’t have phone cameras to broadcast it to the world and to make it commonplace.

Teenagers have always followed the rush of their raging hormones into all sorts of regrettable messes, they just didn’t have Snapchat to preserve it for posterity.

In other words, there really is nothing new under the sun.

It’s reckless for Christians to keep playing the Decay card with such regularity, and irresponsible for the Church to wring its hands and shout doom and CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredation from a distance, instead of looking for the beautiful, loving, redemptive work already happening in the world, and joining in.

We may indeed be a fairly substantial mess right now in America — just no more so than we’ve ever been. It’s a sad indictment of our religion that we need to perpetuate the narrative of an ever-deteriorating Humanity to ratchet-up urgency and to galvanize the shrinking faithful into movement. Worse still is when our Christian witness in the world is marked by contempt for so much of the world.

I don’t believe we’re all slowing sliding off into the abyss, despite what some religious people say. I’m out here every day and I see heroic, compassionate, reckless acts of beauty all the time. I see and speak to lots of inherently good people doing their best; slipping and then getting back up again. We’re all flying and failing simultaneously; gaining and losing ground and doing it again and again. I reject the myth of our downward spiral because I know how hard I and so many others are working to get this life right and to love well. I don’t believe I am in personal moral decay and I imagine the same is true for you, which is the point.

There have always been people who will do horrible, despicable things. There still are.
There have always been people who live with unthinkable kindness. This is still true.
And almost always, they are the very same people.

American Christians need to stop pretending that the “good ol’ days” were so darn wonderful and that everything’s gone to CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored now. That sunny-in-the-rear-view narrative simply doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, to History, or to reality, and it cheapens how far we’ve actually come together. It also discounts what God is doing in this place and time that is so very worthy of celebrating.

These are not perfect days, but they are good days.

America is not yet the thing it could be—but that has always been true.

Yes, the world has its darkness but Light is still our default setting.

Friend, there will always be reason for despair and reason for hope. Lean hard into the hope and you’ll discover that there is more there than you’d realized. You may find that Love is trending here.

Look up, the sky is not falling.

Be encouraged


----------



## RH Clark (May 18, 2016)

bullethead said:


> I saw this today and felt it fitting.
> The Christian Myth of America’s Moral Decay
> 4 hours ago | Updated 3 hours ago
> John Pavlovitz Pastor and Writer
> ...



I agree with a lot of that article. I'm not one of those "The end is near!" God is judging America for its sins!" guys.  Still I see a lot we have lost. Maybe I'm just getting old.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (May 18, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> Stupid meaning void of any intelligent thought or common sense applied to that particular statement.


 
You mean like this one



> Christianity às you pointed out has some despicable ideas to go along with belief in the Christian god.



Either a remarkably ignorant statement or a blatant lie.  You typed it.  Defend it.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 18, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You mean like this one
> 
> 
> 
> Either a remarkably ignorant statement or a blatant lie.  You typed it.  Defend it.



Or completely accurate.
Read your book it's all in there.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (May 19, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> Or completely accurate.
> Read your book it's all in there.



Just as I thought.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 19, 2016)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Just as I thought.


Do you want me to hold your hand?
You've been here long enough to know what
I/we find less than tasteful.
Just because you justify/ignore them doesn't mean they aren't there.
You can start with near genocide, move along to punishment for not worshipping and go from there.
To deny it's not there is either remarkably ignorant or a blatant lie.
If it was about somebody else's God it would jump off the pages and slap you in the face.


----------



## RH Clark (May 19, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> Do you want me to hold your hand?
> You've been here long enough to know what
> I/we find less than tasteful.
> Just because you justify/ignore them doesn't mean they aren't there.
> ...



You see one thing. I see something completely different. Are you open to try to see from my viewpoint ,or do you have your mind already made up?

Let's take your statement that God punishes people for not worshiping him. Where does that come from? Where do you get that idea? Is that something a Christian has told you, or is it just your conclusion?


----------



## WaltL1 (May 19, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> You see one thing. I see something completely different. Are you open to try to see from my viewpoint ,or do you have your mind already made up?
> 
> Let's take your statement that God punishes people for not worshiping him. Where does that come from? Where do you get that idea? Is that something a Christian has told you, or is it just your conclusion?


I'll be honest with you, there is only one view point that i would consider and it's not going to come from a man and it's not going to come from a man's interpretation of a book written by men.
I was once a believer and from what I have read our view points were actually pretty similar.
When I completely removed man from the scenario there was nothing left.
Surely a God wouldn't be dependent on man to exist.
Sooooo see my first sentence.


----------



## ambush80 (May 19, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> You see one thing. I see something completely different. Are you open to try to see from my viewpoint ,or do you have your mind already made up?
> 
> Let's take your statement that God punishes people for not worshiping him. Where does that come from? Where do you get that idea? Is that something a Christian has told you, or is it just your conclusion?



Forgive me for interjecting in your discussion but, what exactly is your viewpoint?


----------



## RH Clark (May 19, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Forgive me for interjecting in your discussion but, what exactly is your viewpoint?



Certainly not that God sends people to he11 for not worshiping him. I'll explain it further if you really want to know. It is however what the scriptures have taught me, so there is that, which may not be acceptable to you.


----------



## ambush80 (May 19, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Certainly not that God sends people to he11 for not worshiping him. I'll explain it further if you really want to know. It is however what the scriptures have taught me, so there is that, which may not be acceptable to you.



I'm open to seeing things from your viewpoint.  I will listen to what the scriptures taught you but can you at the same time tell me why you believe the scriptures are true?


----------



## RH Clark (May 19, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I'm open to seeing things from your viewpoint.  I will listen to what the scriptures taught you but can you at the same time tell me why you believe the scriptures are true?



Why do I believe the scriptures are true?
I was a 30 year old drug addict. Even so I was a well read addict. I had been searching for truth for some time, possibly a meaning for my life. I came to a very low point during an overdose and just honestly told God that if he would let me live that I would do my best to change. 

I guess I always believed in God, probably from my upbringing, though I only remember a couple times ever attending a church of any time. I was picked on a lot as a child and I remember when I was just 6 having a relationship with God. At that time it didn't seem odd at all to talk to God nearly all the time and have him talk to me. Mostly I just remember God encouraging me when I was upset or when I was being bullied. I lost that as I got older. I don't remember when but I know it was early in my childhood.

After surviving my overdose I started asking God what he wanted from me. I expected God to give me some task or something to accomplish but all I ever heard was that I needed to read the Bible. I had read other religious teachings and I had over a thousand books on my shelves having read most of them, but I had never read the Bible at all. I was so ignorant that I was surprised that the gospels all told the same story of the life of Jesus.

I found a truth there in the scriptures and a witness of that truth inside me somewhere. I could relate a few other miraculous things that have happened to me that confirmed the scriptures to me but I digress. I will relate some later if you wish.


My view from the scriptures is that God isn't sending anyone to he11. We are already headed there because of sin. Yes, I believe in Adam's sin but we would be he11 bound for our own sins not Adam's. The way I see it Adam's sin brought a propensity for sin to the human race. I don't believe babies or children are sinful. I believe that propensity for sin has caused every one of us to sin and be worthy of he11.

God however does not want anyone to suffer he11. God being the ultimate father took the responsibility of sin on himself and made it so that anyone who would just trust in him wouldn't have to suffer he11. The one who refuses to trust in God must trust in himself. There is no other choice. Either trust in yourself or trust in God. I know all too well what is in me to trust in myself, so I choose to trust in God for my redemption from myself, and make no mistake, it is redemption from myself and what I have done wrong.


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## ambush80 (May 19, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Why do I believe the scriptures are true?
> I was a 30 year old drug addict. Even so I was a well read addict. I had been searching for truth for some time, possibly a meaning for my life. I came to a very low point during an overdose and just honestly told God that if he would let me live that I would do my best to change.
> 
> I guess I always believed in God, probably from my upbringing, though I only remember a couple times ever attending a church of any time. I was picked on a lot as a child and I remember when I was just 6 having a relationship with God. At that time it didn't seem odd at all to talk to God nearly all the time and have him talk to me. Mostly I just remember God encouraging me when I was upset or when I was being bullied. I lost that as I got older. I don't remember when but I know it was early in my childhood.
> ...



Thanks for sharing that.  I would love to hear about some more miraculous things.

Do you think that a greater sacrifice would be for Jesus to spend eternity in He11 for our sins?


----------



## bullethead (May 19, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Why do I believe the scriptures are true?
> I was a 30 year old drug addict. Even so I was a well read addict. I had been searching for truth for some time, possibly a meaning for my life. I came to a very low point during an overdose and just honestly told God that if he would let me live that I would do my best to change.
> 
> I guess I always believed in God, probably from my upbringing, though I only remember a couple times ever attending a church of any time. I was picked on a lot as a child and I remember when I was just 6 having a relationship with God. At that time it didn't seem odd at all to talk to God nearly all the time and have him talk to me. Mostly I just remember God encouraging me when I was upset or when I was being bullied. I lost that as I got older. I don't remember when but I know it was early in my childhood.
> ...


First, thanks for sharing your story.

I have read the bible in full, in pieces, by book, search it for references frequently and I have never had the impression that the four gospels told the same story for the life of Jesus.
What makes you say they do?


----------



## RH Clark (May 19, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Thanks for sharing that.  I would love to hear about some more miraculous things.
> 
> Do you think that a greater sacrifice would be for Jesus to spend eternity in He11 for our sins?



I may start another thread dealing with miraculous experiences. I do hesitate though because they are only personal experiences and subject to be scoffed at or to be accused of lying outright.


Jesus spending eternity in he11?

I can only speculate about that. I suppose you are really asking why it wasn't necessary if he is really our substitute and we would have had to spend eternity in he11.

I think that we would only stay in he11 because of our spiritual connection to Satan. He11,according to scripture was never created for man but for Satan and his angles which rebelled with him. Sin makes that spiritual connection. Jesus having no sin would have no connection to Satan even though he suffered separation from God on the cross. I suspect Jesus didn't need to spend eternity in he11 because the sin he took on wasn't his own.

I see the cross as  more about sin itself being crucified and destroyed through Christ's death. It is more than just one man paying the debt of another. The scripture speaks of Jesus becoming sin on the cross. Then you have the same representation of Moses lifting up the brazen serpent in the wilderness,signifying Jesus on the cross. There is probably a lot more there than I'll ever fully understand.


----------



## RH Clark (May 19, 2016)

bullethead said:


> First, thanks for sharing your story.
> 
> I have read the bible in full, in pieces, by book, search it for references frequently and I have never had the impression that the four gospels told the same story for the life of Jesus.
> What makes you say they do?



I suppose I explained it poorly. What I meant is that all the Gospels tell of the life and ministry of Jesus but told from different viewpoints. They are not exactly the same but there are several events and teachings that are basically mirrored in each. There are also things contained in each that are not in the others.

When I read then for the first time, I suppose I expected something totally different. My reaction was "hey, didn't I just read about this in the last gospel?"
 I only shared that to emphasize my complete ignorance of the Bible before age 30. At that time I didn't even know John 3:16, which is probably the first verse ever taught to children.


----------



## bullethead (May 19, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I suppose I explained it poorly. What I meant is that all the Gospels tell of the life and ministry of Jesus but told from different viewpoints. They are not exactly the same but there are several events and teachings that are basically mirrored in each. There are also things contained in each that are not in the others.
> 
> When I read then for the first time, I suppose I expected something totally different. My reaction was "hey, didn't I just read about this in the last gospel?"
> I only shared that to emphasize my complete ignorance of the Bible before age 30. At that time I didn't even know John 3:16, which is probably the first verse ever taught to children.


I cannot overlook the blatant conflicting details in the gospels. The writers did not know Jewish or Roman history, customs or practices.


----------



## bullethead (May 19, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I suppose I explained it poorly. What I meant is that all the Gospels tell of the life and ministry of Jesus but told from different viewpoints. They are not exactly the same but there are several events and teachings that are basically mirrored in each. There are also things contained in each that are not in the others.
> 
> When I read then for the first time, I suppose I expected something totally different. My reaction was "hey, didn't I just read about this in the last gospel?"
> I only shared that to emphasize my complete ignorance of the Bible before age 30. At that time I didn't even know John 3:16, which is probably the first verse ever taught to children.


From kyroot.com

If anything in the Christian scriptures needs to be consistent, it is the description of the ascension of Jesus into heaven.  This is a seminal moment in the faith, when Jesus allegedly left the earth and floated up to heaven.  To Christianity’s embarrassment, different books in the Bible place this event in different places.

In Mark 19:20, the ascension occurs in room where the disciples were gathered (relined at table per verse 14):

So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God.

In Luke 24:50, the ascension occurs outdoors in the town of Bethany, a few miles outside Jerusalem:

And He led them out as far as Bethany, and He lifted up His hands and blessed them. While He was blessing them, He parted from them and was carried up into heaven.

In Acts 1:10-12, the ascension takes place on the Mount of Olives:

And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them.They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” Then they returned to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is near Jerusalem, a Sabbath day’s journey away.

In Matthew and John, there is no mention at all of the ascension. This is a remarkable omission.  There are four events in Jesus’s life that require a consistent narrative- his birth, his death, his resurrection, and his ascension.  None of these events are described consistently, and this fact definitively reveals the Bible’s lack of authenticity.  It also strongly hints that none of the accounts of these events is accurate- that they were all simply made up.


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## bullethead (May 19, 2016)

The following are quotes by credentialed archaeologists:

William G. Dever:

Archaeology certainly doesn’t prove literal readings of the Bible…It calls them into question, and that’s what bothers some people. Most people really think that archaeology is out there to prove the Bible. No archaeologist thinks so. From the beginnings of what we call biblical archaeology, perhaps 150 years ago, scholars, mostly western scholars, have attempted to use archaeological data to prove the Bible. And for a long time it was thought to work. William Albright, the great father of our discipline, often spoke of the “archaeological revolution.” Well, the revolution has come but not in the way that Albright thought. The truth of the matter today is that archaeology raises more questions about the historicity of the Hebrew Bible and even the New Testament than it provides answers, and that’s very disturbing to some people.

He also wrote:

Archaeology as it is practiced today must be able to challenge, as well as confirm, the Bible stories. Some things described there really did happen, but others did not. The biblical narratives about Abraham, Moses, Joshua and Solomon  probably reflect some historical memories of people and places, but the ‘larger than life’ portraits of the Bible are unrealistic and contradicted by the archaeological evidence.

Ze’ev Herzog:

This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, YHWH, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai.

Professor Israel Finkelstein, who is known as “the father of biblical archaeology”, told the Jerusalem Post that Jewish archaeologists have found no historical or archaeological evidence to back the biblical narrative on the Exodus, the Jews’ wandering in Sinai or Joshua’s conquest of Canaan. On the alleged Temple of Solomon, Finkelstein said that there is no archaeological evidence to prove it really existed.

Professor Yoni Mizrahi, an independent archaeologist who has worked with the International Atomic Energy Agency, agreed with Israel Finkelstein.

Regarding the Exodus of Israelites from Egypt, Egyptian archaeologist Zahi Hawass said:

“Really, it’s a myth,”… “This is my career as an archaeologist. I should tell them the truth. If the people are upset, that is not my problem.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Bible

Christianity relies on the Bible being a factual account of history. Archaeology has revealed that many of the basic, foundational stories in the Bible are fictional.  This implies that Christianity sits on an unstable understructure of made-up tales, fables, legends, and myths that severely undermines it authenticity.


----------



## bullethead (May 19, 2016)

The discovery of the Sinai Bible was the death blow to any historian claiming the legitimacy of modern versions of the Bible.  The following is taken from:

http://www.vatileaks.com/vati-leaks/a-glaring-omission-in-world-s-oldest-bible

It is a fact of Christian history that the earliest Gospels did not record a resurrection of Jesus Christ, and that claim is supported in the oldest known complete Bible available to mankind today. Called the Codex Sinaiticus, or Sinai Bible, it was named after Mt. Sinai, the location of St. Catherine’s Monastery where it was discovered in 1859 by Dr. Constantine Von Tischendorf (1815-1874). The discovery of the Sinai Bible provided biblical scholars with irrefutable evidence of willful falsifications in all modern-day Gospels, and a comparison identified a staggering 14,800 later editorial alterations in modern Bibles.

With the Sinai Bible, Christian history is traced back as far as it can conceivably go, but it was still written, at best, more than 350 years after the time the Vatican says Jesus Christ walked the sands of Palestine. The ‘Catholic Encyclopedia’ agrees to this extraordinary late composition of the world’s oldest Bible:

’The earliest of the extant manuscripts [relating to Christianity], it is true, do not date back beyond the middle of the fourth century AD’.

(‘Catholic Encyclopedia’, 1909, ‘Gospels’)

Hand-written on animal skins in a dead Greek language, the Sinai Bible was purchased by the British Museum from the Soviet Government in 1933 and is now displayed in the British Library in London. Sometime after its purchase, English-language translations were published (Manuscript No. 43725 in the British Library) and extraordinary new information about the earliest story of Jesus Christ became available to the world. The great comparative value of the Sinai Bible as the world’s oldest available Bible is today universally accepted, and its discovery provided great embarrassment for the Church’s modern-day presentation of Jesus Christ, for it revealed that newer Gospels are the depositories of large amounts of fabricated narratives and intentional perversions of the truth.

One of the most significant facts revealed by the Sinai Bible is that the Book of Mark, the oldest gospel book, did not include any account of Jesus’s resurrection, only that the tomb that he was placed in was discovered to be empty (See Reason #33).  Also, the Sinai Bible contained two New Testament books that are not included in today’s Bibles (the Epistle of Barnabas and the Shepherd of Hermas).  The shear number of alterations (14,800) made to modern Bibles should end any argument about the Bible being either inerrant, the word of god, or an accurate historical account.  It has revealed that the Bible is the equivalent of a graffiti filled wall in Harlem.

A detailed list of the edits, interpolations, distortions, omissions, additions, and forgeries can be found here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Sinaiticus

Biblical inerrancy is a fantasy held by many misinformed evangelical Christians who remain blissfully ignorant of the current state of Biblical scholarship.  We now know that the Bible is not what we would call in today’s vernacular an historical account of history.


----------



## RH Clark (May 19, 2016)

bullethead said:


> From kyroot.com
> 
> If anything in the Christian scriptures needs to be consistent, it is the description of the ascension of Jesus into heaven.  This is a seminal moment in the faith, when Jesus allegedly left the earth and floated up to heaven.  To Christianity’s embarrassment, different books in the Bible place this event in different places.
> 
> ...



Well, if I want to be picky there is no Mark 19:20. the verses are actually in chapter 16 and they don't specifically say that Jesus was at a table when he went to heaven. They just mention the conversation and then say that afterward he ascended into heaven.

Even so, I don't get bent out of shape about inconsistencies such as Judas both hanging himself and falling down and dying. I do believe the bible is God's word to us but I think it is meant to be taken in as a whole rather than trying to argue and build doctrine off of every word. I am not one to think it can contain no mistakes either, particularly the English translations.

The differences in the assentation could be explained in several ways. Possibly Jesus made more than one trip. possibly the writers weren't much concerned about accuracy. Possibly God had it penned in that way on purpose. I really don't know and it doesn't change anything for me. I suppose it might if I based my entire Christian life off the bible. Fortunately I have an actual relationship with God as well. No, I don't always hear his voice like I would a flesh and blood person but I have often enough to reinforce my faith. I also have the awareness of God's spirit guiding me anytime I seek council.


----------



## bullethead (May 19, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Well, if I want to be picky there is no Mark 19:20. the verses are actually in chapter 16 and they don't specifically say that Jesus was at a table when he went to heaven. They just mention the conversation and then say that afterward he ascended into heaven.
> 
> Even so, I don't get bent out of shape about inconsistencies such as Judas both hanging himself and falling down and dying. I do believe the bible is God's word to us but I think it is meant to be taken in as a whole rather than trying to argue and build doctrine off of every word. I am not one to think it can contain no mistakes either, particularly the English translations.
> 
> The differences in the assentation could be explained in several ways. Possibly Jesus made more than one trip. possibly the writers weren't much concerned about accuracy. Possibly God had it penned in that way on purpose. I really don't know and it doesn't change anything for me. I suppose it might if I based my entire Christian life off the bible. Fortunately I have an actual relationship with God as well. No, I don't always hear his voice like I would a flesh and blood person but I have often enough to reinforce my faith. I also have the awareness of God's spirit guiding me anytime I seek council.


Endless possibilities open to individual interpretation written by anonymous men.

Wouldn't the definition of a god include consistency somewhere in there instead of inconsistency?


RHC, I am sincerely glad you are happy with your god situation, but please understand that I can only take you seriously to a certain limit.


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## RH Clark (May 19, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Endless possibilities open to individual interpretation written by anonymous men.
> 
> Wouldn't the definition of a god include consistency somewhere in there instead of inconsistency?
> 
> ...



There is actually quite a bit of consistency. You can find the so called experts on both sides, Christian and atheists that talk a good talk for their predisposition. It's all about what you want to believe.


----------



## ambush80 (May 19, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I may start another thread dealing with miraculous experiences. I do hesitate though because they are only personal experiences and subject to be scoffed at or to be accused of lying outright.
> 
> 
> Jesus spending eternity in he11?
> ...



I would spend eternity in He11 to save my daughter from it.  I don't even have to think about it.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 20, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> There is actually quite a bit of consistency. You can find the so called experts on both sides, Christian and atheists that talk a good talk for their predisposition. It's all about what you want to believe.


So you are good with "quite a bit of consistency"?
How about if you were sitting in court accused of murder that you absolutely didn't do. The prosecutions case is consistently factual - where you live, where you were that day etc. They can prove everything they say except for their claim that you did the murder.
How do you feel about "quite a bit of consistency" now? You good with the jury saying "well the prosecutions story has quite a bit of consistency soo.... GUILTY".
And you are correct that there are 2 sides to every story..
That's what makes proof, univerrsal facts and legitimate evidence so important.


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## bullethead (May 20, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> There is actually quite a bit of consistency. You can find the so called experts on both sides, Christian and atheists that talk a good talk for their predisposition. It's all about what you want to believe.


The message is consistent. 
I tend to think the work of a god would be flawless and fact.


----------



## bullethead (May 20, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> There is actually quite a bit of consistency. You can find the so called experts on both sides, Christian and atheists that talk a good talk for their predisposition. It's all about what you want to believe.


Christian theology claims that the Bible was written under the inspiration of God, that the scriptures are holy, that they and only they are the direct product of divine authorship, and that everything else ever written lacks the same celestial pedigree.  This concept is surely false.  The following quote by Sam Harris sums this up nicely:

Let’s just grant the possibility that there is a Creator God, who’s omniscient, who occasionally authors books. And he’s gonna give us a book – the most useful book. He’s a loving God, he’s a compassionate God, and he’s gonna give us a guide to life. He’s got a scribe, the scribe’s gonna write it down. What’s gonna be in that book? I mean just think of how good a book would be if it were authored by an omniscient deity. I mean, there is not a single line in the Bible or the Koran that could not have been authored by a first century person. There is not one reference to anything – there are pages and pages about how to sacrifice animals, and keep slaves, and who to kill and why. There’s nothing about electricity, there’s nothing about DNA, there’s nothing about infectious disease, the principles of infectious disease. There’s nothing particularly useful, and there’s a lot of iron age barbarism in there, and superstition. This is not a candidate book.

The fact that there is nothing in the Bible that could not have been written by and only by men living in their own times is overwhelming evidence that the Bible is not divinely inspired


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## bullethead (May 20, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Fortunately I have an actual relationship with God as well. No, I don't always hear his voice like I would a flesh and blood person but I have often enough to reinforce my faith. I also have the awareness of God's spirit guiding me anytime I seek council.


Doesn't it bother you in the least at how inconsistent your conversations, directions and advice from god is? Do you think it is possible that there are so many denominations because of so many conflicting conversations with the same god?
Why is it that when he talks to you he will give guidance and yet another person who says god talks to them will get equally opposite guidance? Why is it when a mother testifies that God told her to drown her children you immediately are sure her conversation with god to be made up and that she is obviously insane but you claim to hear the same god?
Is it possible that in both cases each of you are really talking to yourself?


----------



## JimD (May 20, 2016)

Bullet,

I find my beliefs pretty similar to some of the things RH has written. I personally do not believe the Bible is the only source of God inspired truth. I've written before that in searching for "truth" (whatever that is), that if you read Buddhist text, the Tao, Native American text, Hindu text, etc. you will see many of the same "truths." You are correct in that your average "Christian" would not agree with me, but I really don't care about pleasing someone else, or being part of a group. I would agree with you that alot of "religion" is about controlling people, and sadly religious people can be their own worst enemy and a terrible example. There is a verse in the Tao Te Ching that says......"teaching without words and work without doing are understood by very few", meaning actions speak louder than words. I also believe like RH stated I do have a relationship with God, and have also experienced many personal miracles and am comfortable in believing there is a higher power. I do not post anything to convince anyone of anything and feel everyone is entitled to their views. No one can convince someone to change from a Democrat to a Republican, let alone convince someone to believe in God. Only God can speak to a person's heart and cause an awakening. I do enjoy the discussions here and believe iron sharpens iron.


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## jmharris23 (May 20, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> There is something you are going to have to come terms with -
> You belong to a club with certain beliefs. Those beliefs include punishment, denial of certain rights, support/creation of laws against those who aren't in your club. Your club isn't happy to practice your beliefs on your own, you want to force feed those beliefs on others.
> Atheists don't believe in deities. The end.
> They aren't trying to stop you from believing, they aren't trying to make you teach evolution in christian schools, they aren't trying to force you to buy beer on sunday.
> ...


----------



## RH Clark (May 20, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Doesn't it bother you in the least at how inconsistent your conversations, directions and advice from god is? Do you think it is possible that there are so many denominations because of so many conflicting conversations with the same god?
> Why is it that when he talks to you he will give guidance and yet another person who says god talks to them will get equally opposite guidance? Why is it when a mother testifies that God told her to drown her children you immediately are sure her conversation with god to be made up and that she is obviously insane but you claim to hear the same god?
> Is it possible that in both cases each of you are really talking to yourself?



It only bothers me for the children to have suffered at the hands of such an evil person. I know that act is wrong and you not even believing in God also know it's wrong. I also believe that knowing comes from God.

There will always be insane and evil people in the world who will say God told them to do their evil deeds. They aren't exclusively Christian or even any other religion. I know those evil things didn't come from God and you know it just as much without any reference from a Bible to prove it.

What you are asking me is why are some people insane and evil. I can't answer that any more than you can. I can only share my experiences and what God means to me. I think that's part of it. Everyone is responsible for themselves and responsible for their relationship with God.


----------



## RH Clark (May 20, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> So you are good with "quite a bit of consistency"?
> How about if you were sitting in court accused of murder that you absolutely didn't do. The prosecutions case is consistently factual - where you live, where you were that day etc. They can prove everything they say except for their claim that you did the murder.
> How do you feel about "quite a bit of consistency" now? You good with the jury saying "well the prosecutions story has quite a bit of consistency soo.... GUILTY".
> And you are correct that there are 2 sides to every story..
> That's what makes proof, univerrsal facts and legitimate evidence so important.




Yes, I'm OK with it. What you are asking for, and I've heard other atheists ask for nearly the same, is perfection and absolute proof. I don't think you are going to get that in this lifetime anywhere, and I think if you did it would rob you of something very vital, trust and faith.

Forget religion for a moment and let me apply that idea to another relationship, marriage. What would a marriage be without those elements of trust and faith? It would never work if even one in the marriage demanded perfection and absolute proof from the other. one of the most vital parts of the marriage is trust, or faith in your partner. Without that element there can be no love and no strong bond. It takes a risk to have faith and trust in another and that risk, that opening of the heart does something to a person.

I submit that without faith a relationship with God is impossible. It's that faith that changes a person. It's what changed me into a better man. No, absolute proof would destroy and prevent what is necessary in the Christian life.


----------



## bullethead (May 20, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> It only bothers me for the children to have suffered at the hands of such an evil person. I know that act is wrong and you not even believing in God also know it's wrong. I also believe that knowing comes from God.
> 
> There will always be insane and evil people in the world who will say God told them to do their evil deeds. They aren't exclusively Christian or even any other religion. I know those evil things didn't come from God and you know it just as much without any reference from a Bible to prove it.
> 
> What you are asking me is why are some people insane and evil. I can't answer that any more than you can. I can only share my experiences and what God means to me. I think that's part of it. Everyone is responsible for themselves and responsible for their relationship with God.


The problem is that you cannot be sure of anything. If you think a god talks to you then a god must talk to others. Unless that God checks in with you to give you daily updates about its conversations with others the both of you (and whoever else believes a god actually talks to them) are in the same category. 
Neither of you can prove the other wrong.


----------



## RH Clark (May 20, 2016)

bullethead said:


> The problem is that you cannot be sure of anything. If you think a god talks to you then a god must talk to others. Unless that God checks in with you to give you daily updates about its conversations with others the both of you (and whoever else believes a god actually talks to them) are in the same category.
> Neither of you can prove the other wrong.



That's where I believe the Bile is useful. I don't take it as every single word was directly given by God, but I do believe it is overall God's word and penned by men who heard from God. Without it, no we couldn't say that God didn't tell the crazy woman to kill her children, we would have no guide and no compass, Christianity would be complete anarchy. For all it's flaws that Bible is incredibly useful. It's the glue that holds Christianity together and it will clearly tell you that murder is wrong.


----------



## bullethead (May 20, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Yes, I'm OK with it. What you are asking for, and I've heard other atheists ask for nearly the same, is perfection and absolute proof. I don't think you are going to get that in this lifetime anywhere, and I think if you did it would rob you of something very vital, trust and faith.
> 
> Forget religion for a moment and let me apply that idea to another relationship, marriage. What would a marriage be without those elements of trust and faith? It would never work if even one in the marriage demanded perfection and absolute proof from the other. one of the most vital parts of the marriage is trust, or faith in your partner. Without that element there can be no love and no strong bond. It takes a risk to have faith and trust in another and that risk, that opening of the heart does something to a person.
> 
> I submit that without faith a relationship with God is impossible. It's that faith that changes a person. It's what changed me into a better man. No, absolute proof would destroy and prevent what is necessary in the Christian life.


You are comparing a god to mortals. 
The writers of the bible wrote as if their gods were stuck in 1st century and prior years. The trend continues as believers have to make 21st century excuses for their gods. 

In my opinion if one must treat a god like a spouse and expect the same it is no God at all.
And BTW , I have been with the same woman since 1985 when I was 15 yrs old. Good bad or otherwise  is all part of the package no matter who you are with or married to. If a god is the same then the god was created in our image and it's expectations and powers are no more or no less. It IS us.


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## bullethead (May 20, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> That's where I believe the Bile is useful. I don't take it as every single word was directly given by God, but I do believe it is overall God's word and penned by men who heard from God. Without it, no we couldn't say that God didn't tell the crazy woman to kill her children, we would have no guide and no compass, Christianity would be complete anarchy. For all it's flaws that Bible is incredibly useful. It's the glue that holds Christianity together and it will clearly tell you that murder is wrong.


Heck, didn't anyone know murder was wrong before the bible? What took a god that loves his children 400,000 years to share that tidbit?


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## RH Clark (May 20, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Heck, didn't anyone know murder was wrong before the bible? What took a god that loves his children 400,000 years to share that tidbit?



I already said in another post that you didn't need the bible to know that. 

I was specifically addressing the usefulness of scripture as a guide for the Christian life.


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## RH Clark (May 20, 2016)

bullethead said:


> You are comparing a god to mortals.
> The writers of the bible wrote as if their gods were stuck in 1st century and prior years. The trend continues as believers have to make 21st century excuses for their gods.
> 
> In my opinion if one must treat a god like a spouse and expect the same it is no God at all.
> And BTW , I have been with the same woman since 1985 when I was 15 yrs old. Good bad or otherwise  is all part of the package no matter who you are with or married to. If a god is the same then the god was created in our image and it's expectations and powers are no more or no less. It IS us.



You are entitled to your opinion just as I am. God was not created in our image, we were created in his.

BTW congrats on your marriage. It's been 21 years for me.


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## WaltL1 (May 20, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Yes, I'm OK with it. What you are asking for, and I've heard other atheists ask for nearly the same, is perfection and absolute proof. I don't think you are going to get that in this lifetime anywhere, and I think if you did it would rob you of something very vital, trust and faith.
> 
> Forget religion for a moment and let me apply that idea to another relationship, marriage. What would a marriage be without those elements of trust and faith? It would never work if even one in the marriage demanded perfection and absolute proof from the other. one of the most vital parts of the marriage is trust, or faith in your partner. Without that element there can be no love and no strong bond. It takes a risk to have faith and trust in another and that risk, that opening of the heart does something to a person.
> 
> I submit that without faith a relationship with God is impossible. It's that faith that changes a person. It's what changed me into a better man. No, absolute proof would destroy and prevent what is necessary in the Christian life.


What to me is very telling and completely missing from your response is that your religion guides you in how you see and treat other people.
From refusing to issue marriage licenses to who should or shouldn't adopt children to buying beer on Sundays to getting married to who you judge to be living their life wrong....
What's the reason Christians give? -
Well God says.....
Maybe I think that should require some proof because I'm just not selfish enough.
Love your neighbor. Yeah right.


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## WaltL1 (May 20, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> That's where I believe the Bile is useful. I don't take it as every single word was directly given by God, but I do believe it is overall God's word and penned by men who heard from God. Without it, no we couldn't say that God didn't tell the crazy woman to kill her children, we would have no guide and no compass, Christianity would be complete anarchy. For all it's flaws that Bible is incredibly useful. It's the glue that holds Christianity together and it will clearly tell you that murder is wrong.


Glue that holds Christianity together?
You've been dividing and seperating yourselves up since it's inception. There are literally differing beliefs within Christianity that would deny you of your trip to heaven.
Be serious.


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## RH Clark (May 20, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> Glue that holds Christianity together?
> You've been dividing and seperating yourselves up since it's inception. There are literally differing beliefs within Christianity that would deny you of your trip to heaven.
> Be serious.



Yea, Christians have a lot to argue about but having the Bible for a foundation is still much superior to everyone just saying "God told me."


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## WaltL1 (May 20, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Yea, Christians have a lot to argue about but having the Bible for a foundation is still much superior to everyone just saying "God told me."


It's the bible and the interpretations of it that causes the problems.
Is that the bible's fault?  Yes and no.
Man wants it to say what supports their beliefs.
But it's written in a way that allows them to do that.
If the bible is the word of God and God created man surely an omni everything God would have foreseen what the problem was going to be and his word would have been relayed in a simple and concise manner that left no question what he meant.
Just more evidence that the Bible is a work of man.


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## RH Clark (May 20, 2016)

WaltL1
"It's the bible and the interpretations of it that causes the problems.
Is that the bible's fault? Yes and no.
Man wants it to say what supports their beliefs.
But it's written in a way that allows them to do that.
If the bible is the word of God and God created man surely an omni everything God would have foreseen what the problem was going to be and his word would have been relayed in a simple and concise manner that left no question what he meant.
Just more evidence that the Bible is a work of man." 




Maybe, but maybe not. The Greek language is actually much more precise than English. A lot of problems arise from ignorance of the Greek from people who really don't want to dig for the original meaning since it would possibly contradict their belief.

Then there's the fact that people will argue about anything and everything no matter how precise the language is. That's why legal documents are written in such a way as they are, and still a crafty individual will get around them. Just look at the interpretation of our constitution and how it's constantly under attack by individuals trying to make it say what it clearly doesn't say.

I 'll say it again.In this life there will never be perfection and absolute proof of anything. Even if God appeared and spoke directly to a group of people some would deny that what they saw and heard really happened. That's just human nature. We believe what we want to believe.


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## WaltL1 (May 20, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> WaltL1
> "It's the bible and the interpretations of it that causes the problems.
> Is that the bible's fault? Yes and no.
> Man wants it to say what supports their beliefs.
> ...


I'm talking about God and his ability to do/accomplish anything he wants (according to the story) and you are listing reasons why he cant.
Interesting.


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## bullethead (May 20, 2016)

Excuses for a god and ignored scripture are what really stands out.


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## RH Clark (May 20, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Excuses for a god and ignored scripture are what really stands out.



I would be happy to address any scripture you think I am ignoring.

As far as excuses for God, I'm not sure what you are referring to, name one I'm making if you want. I'll try to answer that too.

I will say that God's relationship with man is what it is because of God's decision to give the earth to man and allow him free will to do with it what he wants.


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## RH Clark (May 20, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> I'm talking about God and his ability to do/accomplish anything he wants (according to the story) and you are listing reasons why he cant.
> Interesting.



So, are you asking me why God can't just make men believe in him?


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## bullethead (May 20, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I would be happy to address any scripture you think I am ignoring.
> 
> As far as excuses for God, I'm not sure what you are referring to, name one I'm making if you want. I'll try to answer that too.
> 
> I will say that God's relationship with man is what it is because of God's decision to give the earth to man and allow him free will to do with it what he wants.


We discussed some earlier and you gave a few possibilities on why the gospels have different accounts of the same events or why some do not address the event at all.. None of your possibilities went against God getting them all the same information.


----------



## RH Clark (May 20, 2016)

bullethead said:


> We discussed some earlier and you gave a few possibilities on why the gospels have different accounts of the same events or why some do not address the event at all.. None of your possibilities went against God getting them all the same information.



I don't see that as God's fault though. I told you that I don't take the scripture as if God actually penned it himself. I do think it's all useful but I think it has to be taken in as a whole. A lot of the divisions and false doctrines in Christianity come from someone trying to build a tower off of just a few select scriptures to the exclusion to many others.


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## bullethead (May 20, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I don't see that as God's fault though. I told you that I don't take the scripture as if God actually penned it himself. I do think it's all useful but I think it has to be taken in as a whole. A lot of the divisions and false doctrines in Christianity come from someone trying to build a tower off of just a few select scriptures to the exclusion to many others.


Exactly, you are making an excuse for god.
Everybody knows god didn't pen anything himself. That would have been way too perfect, instead he waited a half million years to get the ball rolling. Strike one.

God wanted his message conveyed to the world.
God supposedly chose people to do that. Strike two
These people took centuries to get it done. Strike three
So much was written that councils of men had to decide which of it came from god and which did not. Strike four
Some of the stories that were included for centuries in religion were now not included despite those stories being sold as the words of the lord god. Something is starting to stink.
What did make the choice of men came from anonymous authors who were never there, didn't know the history, cultures, practices, biology, disease, science, geography of the times let alone anything beyond the period they were writing about.  My Bee-Ess Ometer is pegged at this point.
There is nothing in there beyond the knowledge of 1st century writers. Certainly nothing god like.
If you do not take scripture as god penned it, then WHO told these writers what to write?
WHO chose these authors to convey what God wanted conveyed?
If a being is supposed to be responsible for creating the entire universe and every recipe for every single item in it, why would it rely on a creature that could not handle the job of getting gods word out ? A real god would have seen the discrepancies and future problems and honestly would have fixed them personally by not involving anyone but himself.
The one thing that could literally be undeniably be the work of a god is left to 1st century and earlier men.
Are you kidding me!?!?!?
4.5 billion years of Earth's existence, 2 million years of pre humans, 500,000 years of humans, a world full of approximately 20 million modern humans that all go ignored so that the head honcho decides he is going to go to one single tribe out in the desert in the middle of nowhere, and make them his "chosen" people. For these people alone he will smite, kill, destroy, rape, enslave and use the most far fetched ways of the imagination (which were actually natural disasters and talking snakes, donkeys, and bushes which are the limits of human mind in those times)to wipe out every other one of his creation in order to help these people make it as a nation. And on top of it he is going to use a handful of anonymous Jewish guys to write his handbook over 4000 years!

Oh-your -god I cannot fathom anyone believes this nonsense let alone says that it is not gods fault things do not add up.

And since this bible has worked so well to confuse 7 billion people this god is M.I.A for 1900 years. No appearances in a time where he would be recorded. No new writings. No anything. Just 2 billion followers that splintered off into 40,000+ different denominations because they absolutely cannot, do not and will not agree on what is in that handbook.

RHC, I once made up excuses for my god. I once ignored the blatant untruths and discrepancies in his handbook. I once felt guilty even thinking something was wrong so I started my own spin off to where I felt comfortable mixing and meshing what I thought did and did not make sense. I left church and worshiped my own way. I separated myself from those "other" christians.
I gradually phased out my guilt by honestly pursuing this god and the more I looked and the deeper I searched the less I found.
Good luck to you, you need it.


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## drippin' rock (May 20, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> WaltL1
> "It's the bible and the interpretations of it that causes the problems.
> Is that the bible's fault? Yes and no.
> Man wants it to say what supports their beliefs.
> ...



Why should we have to dig for the original meaning?  Are you saying the bible isn't accurate as it is currently translated?


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## drippin' rock (May 20, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> WaltL1
> "It's the bible and the interpretations of it that causes the problems.
> Is that the bible's fault? Yes and no.
> Man wants it to say what supports their beliefs.
> ...



You're darn tootin' y'all will argue over anything.  Just look at that thread you are in about the rapture. Bunch of grown men arguing about fairy tales.  The Bible is glue.....OK.


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## RH Clark (May 21, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Exactly, you are making an excuse for god.
> Everybody knows god didn't pen anything himself. That would have been way too perfect, instead he waited a half million years to get the ball rolling. Strike one.
> 
> God wanted his message conveyed to the world.
> ...



Every one of those points are answered in the simple fact that God gave the earth to man. At that point God had no choice but to work through men, or to break his word to man.

When you went out on your own, you didn't find God because you were looking for one that would fit what you thought he should be. That is easily seen in your view of how God didn't act according to what you deem acceptable. I'm not making excuses for God. That would be the case if I viewed his actions through the same lenses you do. I don't however see a God who chose an obscure man in the desert to the exclusion of better choices. I see a God who searched the whole earth to find a man that could believe beyond what he could see because such a man was necessary to bring salvation to the entire world.


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## bullethead (May 21, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Every one of those points are answered in the simple fact that God gave the earth to man. At that point God had no choice but to work through men, or to break his word to man.
> 
> When you went out on your own, you didn't find God because you were looking for one that would fit what you thought he should be. That is easily seen in your view of how God didn't act according to what you deem acceptable. I'm not making excuses for God. That would be the case if I viewed his actions through the same lenses you do. I don't however see a God who chose an obscure man in the desert to the exclusion of better choices. I see a God who searched the whole earth to find a man that could believe beyond what he could see because such a man was necessary to bring salvation to the entire world.


A god had to search the world to find a man to fit his needs?
Again, not sounding godlike at all.

If a god gave the world to man why did god feel the need to intervene for a bunch of centuries in order to make things go his way?


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## RH Clark (May 21, 2016)

bullethead said:


> A god had to search the world to find a man to fit his needs?
> Again, not sounding godlike at all.
> 
> If a god gave the world to man why did god feel the need to intervene for a bunch of centuries in order to make things go his way?



Do you mean "not" feel the need to intervene for a bunch of centuries?

If that's the case then I see God as always having a hand.


----------



## bullethead (May 21, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Do you mean "not" feel the need to intervene for a bunch of centuries?
> 
> If that's the case then I see God as always having a hand.


No, I mean according to the bible god was personally involved in the actions of men for centuries. God personally stepped in and stacked the deck in favor of his chosen people.
Why, if as you say he left the world to man to do as man wanted, did he involve himself?

His involvement directly refutes your claims/excuses.


----------



## RH Clark (May 21, 2016)

bullethead said:


> No, I mean according to the bible god was personally involved in the actions of men for centuries. God personally stepped in and stacked the deck in favor of his chosen people.
> Why, if as you say he left the world to man to do as man wanted, did he involve himself?
> 
> His involvement directly refutes your claims/excuses.



Look back at all God's involvement and you won't find a single instance where God didn't use a man to either work through or to proclaim what he wanted accomplished.

Why did he involve himself? Because without his involvement we were all destined for destruction.


----------



## bullethead (May 21, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Look back at all God's involvement and you won't find a single instance where God didn't use a man to either work through or to proclaim what he wanted accomplished.
> 
> Why did he involve himself? Because without his involvement we were all destined for destruction.


"What God wanted accomplished....."
Tell us more about free will again.

You are contradicting yourself with each post now.


----------



## RH Clark (May 21, 2016)

bullethead said:


> "What God wanted accomplished....."
> Tell us more about free will again.
> 
> You are contradicting yourself with each post now.



No, I'm not contradicting myself. Despite your extreme bias to find fault I'll try to explain it in a different way.

I have children and they have free will. I don't control my children as if they were robots, but that doesn't mean that I completely turn them loose to do whatever they please without ever advising or guiding them either. Likewise God wants his children to prosper. He does advise and try to guide them but he also gives them the ability to disobey and choose the wrong thing.


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## bullethead (May 21, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> No, I'm not contradicting myself. Despite your extreme bias to find fault I'll try to explain it in a different way.
> 
> I have children and they have free will. I don't control my children as if they were robots, but that doesn't mean that I completely turn them loose to do whatever they please without ever advising or guiding them either. Likewise God wants his children to prosper. He does advise and try to guide them but he also gives them the ability to disobey and choose the wrong thing.


Scripture tells a different story than what you are trying to portray.
God flat out kills for his chosen people for a couple thousand years and then abandons 6 million of them in WWII. 
If you would like we can go example by example of how the God you worship directly kills individuals, tribes, villages and bloodlines in order to have his will done. He wipes out men, women  and children.
He creates disasters and sends spirits to murder. He hardens hearts to get his way and then punishes those people for his own actions. How exactly was Pharoah allowed to use his free will?

Your free will is another excuse for a nonexistent god. You cannot convince fellow christians with the explanations you try to pass off here so you are going to have to be very specific when dealing with me.

I see that you compare yourself with God as to how you oversee your children. That sounds just like what the writers did 1900 to 4000 years ago.
It didn't work then and it doesn't work now.


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## RH Clark (May 21, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Scripture tells a different story than what you are trying to portray.
> God flat out kills for his chosen people for a couple thousand years and then abandons 6 million of them in WWII.
> If you would like we can go example by example of how the God you worship directly kills individuals, tribes, villages and bloodlines in order to have his will done. He wipes out men, women  and children.
> He creates disasters and sends spirits to murder. He hardens hearts to get his way and then punishes those people for his own actions. How exactly was Pharoah allowed to use his free will?
> ...



Well, I'm sorry my friend. It really doesn't seem to matter what I say. You are going to find fault. It's what you have chosen. How's that for free will?


What I find hard to understand is how you can reject God because of what you accuse him of doing but still insist that he doesn't exist. That's one I hope that you will answer someday for yourself.


----------



## bullethead (May 21, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Well, I'm sorry my friend. It really doesn't seem to matter what I say. You are going to find fault. It's what you have chosen. How's that for free will?
> 
> 
> What I find hard to understand is how you can reject God because of what you accuse him of doing but still insist that he doesn't exist. That's one I hope that you will answer someday for yourself.



I completely understand why you wouldn't want to continue such a conversation.

I reject the stories about such a god. I reject the personal relationships based off of those stories about a god. 

If such a god cannot stand up to scrutiny based off of the stories such a god isn't much of a god at all.


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## WaltL1 (May 21, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Look back at all God's involvement and you won't find a single instance where God didn't use a man to either work through or to proclaim what he wanted accomplished.
> 
> Why did he involve himself? Because without his involvement we were all destined for destruction.


Humor me for a minute. If the whole story was man made and the goal was power, control, wealth and dominance of the people, what could be a very smart reason the story 
was that God always worked through man and proclaimed what he wanted through man?


----------



## RH Clark (May 21, 2016)

bullethead said:


> I completely understand why you wouldn't want to continue such a conversation.
> 
> I reject the stories about such a god. I reject the personal relationships based off of those stories about a god.
> 
> If such a god cannot stand up to scrutiny based off of the stories such a god isn't much of a god at all.



If you really want to ask about something specific I'll try my best to answer the question. You have to be open to the explanation though, otherwise it's just a waste of my time.

I do agree with you though that if I viewed God as some do, both atheists and Christians, I would be just as adverse of an opinion of him as you.


----------



## RH Clark (May 21, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> Humor me for a minute. If the whole story was man made and the goal was power, control, wealth and dominance of the people, what could be a very smart reason the story
> was that God always worked through man and proclaimed what he wanted through man?



I'm sure that many have used it as such, but it's plain for any to see that actually wants to take the time to study the scriptures for themselves that your hypothesis isn't the case.

The scriptures clearly tell us that the greatest is the one who is servant to all. Humility, and an emphasis for spiritual above material is a recurring theme.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 21, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I'm sure that many have used it as such, but it's plain for any to see that actually wants to take the time to study the scriptures for themselves that your hypothesis isn't the case.
> 
> The scriptures clearly tell us that the greatest is the one who is servant to all. Humility, and an emphasis for spiritual above material is a recurring theme.


You aren't getting the point.
If you are led to believe that God always worked through man then you aren't going to question why God is a no show and you only ever see his "representatives".
It continues to this day.
And your spiritual above material is wishful thinking. The Vatican is worth billions while people are homeless and hungry.
Did Jesus amass wealth while ignoring those in need?


----------



## RH Clark (May 21, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> You aren't getting the point.
> If you are led to believe that God always worked through man then you aren't going to question why God is a no show and you only ever see his "representatives".
> It continues to this day.
> And your spiritual above material is wishful thinking. The Vatican is worth billions while people are homeless and hungry.
> Did Jesus amass wealth while ignoring those in need?



No I think I got the point. What I'm saying though is that the use of the message doesn't invalidate the message.

As far as God being a no show, if I didn't have a relationship with God I might feel that way. I'm sure you will scoff at such an idea but there are billions on the planet that do feel and have an awareness of God himself, both with them and leading them, myself included.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 21, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> No I think I got the point. What I'm saying though is that the use of the message doesn't invalidate the message.
> 
> As far as God being a no show, if I didn't have a relationship with God I might feel that way. I'm sure you will scoff at such an idea but there are billions on the planet that do feel and have an awareness of God himself, both with them and leading them, myself included.


I don't scoff at the idea that you and they believe you have a relationship with God.
I'm quite sure you believe you do.


----------



## bullethead (May 21, 2016)

This statement leans heavily towards my thoughts.
"
Christians are obligated to accept the fact that God first chose to minister and support only the Jews, and to ignore all others, and even to assist the Jews in plundering the neighboring gentile populations.  At the time there were large civilizations in Asia, Europe, North and South America, Africa, and Australia.  People living in these areas did not learn anything about Jesus until centuries later, some even until around 1500 years later.  To consider this fact is sobering.  Why would a god do this, ignore humans for tens of thousands of years only to present himself solely to a desert tribe on a tiny spot of land?  A more reasonable explanation is that the Jewish people invented a god that favored them, just like every other culture that has existed."


----------



## bullethead (May 21, 2016)

The surest sign of a man-made enterprise is that it splits quickly into many different factions.  On the other hand, one initiated by a god would be expected to converge into a tight unity. This is because only those groups that aligned correctly with the divine theological blueprint would receive supernatural support and thereby flourish, attract members, and survive the long term.  Any wayward factions would lose favor and couldn’t compete for new members.

There are now approximately 38,000 Christian denominations, many of which have very disparate beliefs and practices.  This is a valid clue that Christianity is a man-made concept.

 Other religions

A corollary to the previous point is made by looking at other religions.  The Pew Research Center in 2012 estimated the size of the major world religions as a percentage of the total population, as follows”

Christianity 31.5%, Islam 23.3%, Unaffiliated 16.3%, Hinduism 15.0%, Buddhism 7.1%, Folk Religions 5.9%, Other 0.8%, and Judaism 0.2%.

Three points can be made.  First, it is obvious that at least 68.5% of the world’s population is not following the true religion, and most of these people are following a false religion.  Therefore, it is correct to assume that there are billions of people who are sure that their religion is the correct one, even though they are completely mistaken.  So, we know for a fact that a completely false religion can flourish and command the adherence of a major swath of the world’s population over several millenniums of time. What this implies is that faith in the Christian religion is similarly vulnerable to the same degree of delusion and that its large number of followers is no evidence of its authenticity.

Second, if Christianity is the only true religion, then in 2000 years’ time it should have swallowed up the false religions and be the only major religion remaining in the world.

Third, when one examines the geographic distribution of the major world religions, it is seen that a person’s place of birth is by far the major deciding factor in their choice of religion.  This implies that religious belief is mostly a consequence of childhood and cultural indoctrination, and not the result of objective analysis.


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## bullethead (May 21, 2016)

Because of societal pressure and scientific advancements, Christian practices and dogma have changed over the centuries.  However, the text of the Bible has remained static, resulting in a disconnect that becomes more glaring as time goes on.  The best way to explain this point further is to quote Mark Twain:

The Christian’s Bible is a drug store. Its contents remain the same; but the medical practice changes…The world has corrected the Bible. The church never corrects it; and also never fails to drop in at the tail of the procession- and take the credit of the correction. During many ages there were witches. The Bible said so. the Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live. Therefore the Church, after eight hundred years, gathered up its halters, thumb-screws, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest. She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood.

Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry…..There are no witches. The witch text remains; only the practice has changed. H3ll fire is gone, but the text remains. Infant CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredation is gone, but the text remains. More than two hundred death penalties are gone from the law books, but the texts that authorized them remain.

The conclusion that should be drawn from this point is that a religion and holy book inspired or authored by a supernatural deity should not have multiple issues that have to be abandoned because of future advancement of society.  Rather, it should be predictive of such changes.


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## bullethead (May 21, 2016)

Consider the following passage from Matthew 12:39-41:

But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; for just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the the belly of a sea monster, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. “The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.…

There are two problems with this statement. First, it seems to imply that Jesus believed literally in the story of Jonah, recognized by sane people today to be a fable.  Either Jesus actually believed the Jonah story and made this statement or it was the fabrication of the author, neither of which bodes well for Christianity.  Second, by all Gospel accounts, Jesus was dead for only two nights and one day.  He was crucified late on Friday and rose on Sunday morning.


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## bullethead (May 21, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> No I think I got the point. What I'm saying though is that the use of the message doesn't invalidate the message.
> 
> As far as God being a no show, if I didn't have a relationship with God I might feel that way. I'm sure you will scoff at such an idea but there are billions on the planet that do feel and have an awareness of God himself, both with them and leading them, myself included.


When inventing a god, the most important thing is to claim that it is invisible, inaudible, and imperceptible in every way. Otherwise, people will become skeptical when it appears to no one, is silent, and does nothing.


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## bullethead (May 21, 2016)

This speaks volumes.

The oldest existing New Testament manuscripts are all copies of copies and certainly contain many errors, omissions, and deliberate edits.  The following is from:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/symes02.htm

The original Greek manuscripts of the books of the New Testament have not survived. What are extant are hand written copies of copies of copies – over 5,600 fragments or complete copies in the original Greek, with 94 per cent dating from the 9th century. The earliest is a tiny fragment from the Gospel of John dated to the first half of the 2nd century. The earliest complete copy of the Gospel of Mark (which was written about the year 70) dates from the 4th century. Our earliest copies of Paul’s writings come about 150 years after he wrote them. Mistakes and intentional alterations in the copying process resulted in thousands of variations in these texts until the invention of the printing press in the 15th century. The differences were mostly spelling and grammatical errors, but also there were some deliberate omissions, insertions and mistranslations in the New Testament. There are some significant differences and contradictions in the biblical texts that have a bearing on historical accuracy and Christian theology.

The earliest surviving version of the New Testament, the Codex Sinaiticus (circa 300 CE), contains the book the Shepherd of Hermas and the Epistle of Barnabas that had been read in churches for years. They were eventually expunged from the canonical New Testament for not reflecting orthodox thinking. There are other books that are actually referenced by New Testament writers that are missing from the canon. For example, Paul urges believers to read his letter to the Laodiceans (see Colossians 4:16). It is disputed as to whether the surviving Latin copy, originally in some Bibles, is genuine. Also, the writer of Jude references the Jewish apocryphal book of Enoch as though it was authoritative (Jude 14-15). It is ironic that Jude is accepted into the Biblical Canon, but the book he quotes from is not. The early New Testament was a fluid entity for many decades and determining what was really the Word of God was controversial. Ultimately, men who did not personally know the authors of the scriptures made the decisions.

Very few Christians realize how much time separates the existing manuscripts from the originals.  For a god to be establishing a new religion, this is an abysmal way to have done it.  Even if the original writers wrote precisely what God wanted them to, we don’t have a reliable access to those divinely inspired words.

(119) Book burning

The book is a universal symbol of learning, critical thought, open-mindedness, and the celebration of new and enlightening ideas.  So naturally, a religion built on flimsy evidence would view books as an enemy to its success. The story of Christians burning books is a long and sorry tale.

In fact, book burning is discussed in the Bible, Acts 19:18-20:

Many also of those who had believed kept coming, confessing and disclosing their practices.  And many of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of everyone; and they counted up the price of them and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.  So the word of the Lord was growing mightily and prevailing.

The early history of book burning is described at this website:

http://www.rejectionofpascalswager.net/bookburn.html

The moment Christianity came into power in the fourth century, books that do not conform to its teaching were ferociously destroyed. Around 363-364, the Christian emperor Jovian, ordered the pagan library in Antioch to be burnt, leaving the helpless citizens watching the books go up in flames. [1]

Continuing this trend, around the year 372, the Christian emperor Valens (d.378), as part of his persecution of pagans, ordered the burning of non-Christian books in Antioch. (The main target were pagan books on divination and magic but most of the books burned were mainly on liberal arts and law). Fearful of the emperor, many provinces of the eastern empire burned their own libraries to avoid his wrath.[2]

Perhaps the greatest single intellectual loss of the classical world was the destruction of the library of Alexandria. At one time, it was reputed to house about 700,000 books on subjects ranging from literature and history to science and philosophy. In the year 391, the bishop of Alexandria, Theophilus (d.412), in his quest to destroy paganism, lead a group of crazed monks and laymen, destroyed all the books in the great library.

No other great libraries were spared by the Christians. Up to the fifth century many Greco Roman cities had libraries which housed more than 100,000 books. These were all destroyed by the Christians. Pope Gregory The Great (c.540-604) was the person responsible for destroying the last collection of older Roman works in the city.

Book burning by Christians has continued into the modern era, though normally via a different, more euphemistic approach such as book removal from libraries or school curricula. It also takes the form of removing ‘controversial’ information from school textbooks while adding fictional information.

Any belief system that fears competing ideas to the extent that it feels it must destroy or obscure the documentation of those ideas is a weak enterprise that should be avoided by any clear-thinking person.


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## bullethead (May 21, 2016)

716) The de-conversion experience

Christians often offer as evidence for their god the emotional experience they feel as they are committing to the faith.   But the feeling of being released from a counterfeit faith is often even more profound. The following is a quote from Robert Ingersoll (1833-1899):

When I became convinced that the universe was natural, that all the ghosts and gods were myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell. The dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts and bars and manacles turned to dust. I was no longer a servant, a serf, or a slave. There was for me no master in all the wide world, not even in infinite space.

I was free to think. Free to express my thoughts, free to live in my own ideal. Free to live for myself and those I loved. Free to use all my faculties, all my senses. Free to spread imagination’s wings, free to investigate, to guess, and dream and hope. Free to judge and determine for myself. Free to reject all ignorant and cruel creeds, all the inspired books that savages have produced, and the barbarous legends of the past. Free from sanctified mistakes and “holy” lies. Free from the fear of eternal pain, free from the winged monsters of the night. Free from devils, ghosts and gods. For the first time I was free.

There were no prohibited places in all of the realm of thought. No error, no space where fancy could not spread her painted wings. No chains for my limbs. No lashes for my back. No flames for my flesh. No Master’s frown or threat, no following in another’s steps. No need to bow or cringe or crawl, or utter lying words. I was free; I stood erect and fearlessly, joyously faced all worlds.

My heart was filled with gratitude, with thankfulness, and went out in love to all the heros, the thinkers who gave their lives for liberty of hand and brain, for the freedom of labor and thought to those who fell on the fierce fields of war. To those who died in dungeons, bound in chains, to those by fire consumed, to all the wise, the good, the brave of every land whose thoughts and deeds have given freedom to the sons of men. And then, I vowed to grasp the torch that they held, and hold it high, That light might conquer darkness still.

It is very unlikely that a person abandoning a faith position associated with an omnipotent deity, the type assumed by Christianity, would experience anything other than bewilderment and discomfort. On the other hand, becoming released from a fictitious, stultifying, oppressive, and fraudulent religion would engender exactly what Mr. Ingersoll has described.


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## RH Clark (May 24, 2016)

bullethead said:


> When inventing a god, the most important thing is to claim that it is invisible, inaudible, and imperceptible in every way. Otherwise, people will become skeptical when it appears to no one, is silent, and does nothing.



If God was silent and did nothing, then I might agree with you. That has not been the case for me. Maybe God just doesn't want to talk to you. If you were posting bad things about me every post then I would probably feel the same. LOL  The good news is that he won't hold it against you as soon as you change your attitude.


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## RH Clark (May 24, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> I don't scoff at the idea that you and they believe you have a relationship with God.
> I'm quite sure you believe you do.



I appreciate that Walt. It's not always the kind of relationship that it could be but that's my fault. Also, I'm not some weirdo that claims God tells him every move he needs to make. I'm just a regular guy who believes that I get direction and advice, and help, when I honestly seek God for those things.


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## bullethead (May 24, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> If God was silent and did nothing, then I might agree with you. That has not been the case for me. Maybe God just doesn't want to talk to you. If you were posting bad things about me every post then I would probably feel the same. LOL  The good news is that he won't hold it against you as soon as you change your attitude.



He had years of devotion, years of doubt and years of disbelief. What better time is there than to make your presence known to someone who doubts you or doesn't believe in you?

Believers make their own signs and conversations, no God needed there.


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## bullethead (May 24, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I appreciate that Walt. It's not always the kind of relationship that it could be but that's my fault. Also, I'm not some weirdo that claims God tells him every move he needs to make. I'm just a regular guy who believes that I get direction and advice, and help, when I honestly seek God for those things.


How do you get that direction?, the bible says nobody can see god or hear his voice, but then again it describes times god has been seen and heard....


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## RH Clark (May 24, 2016)

bullethead said:


> How do you get that direction?, the bible says nobody can see god or hear his voice, but then again it describes times god has been seen and heard....



Which verses are you referring to, speaking of no one hearing or seeing God?


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## bullethead (May 24, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Which verses are you referring to, speaking of no one hearing or seeing God?


First, how do you get your direction?
Everybody wants to line item veto the important questions.


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## bullethead (May 24, 2016)

Exodus 33:20
John 1:18, 5:37


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## WaltL1 (May 24, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I appreciate that Walt. It's not always the kind of relationship that it could be but that's my fault. Also, I'm not some weirdo that claims God tells him every move he needs to make. I'm just a regular guy who believes that I get direction and advice, and help, when I honestly seek God for those things.


But I have to say I get the exact same direction, advice and help from my Grandfather. And he's been gone for many years. I can close my eyes and see him, hear him and sometimes even smell him.
But I'm perfectly aware that it is my own mind that is generating the entire "conversation" based on memory, knowing what he would say to me in certain situations etc.
I might even go so far as to call it a "relationship" as basically it's a continuation of our relationship from when he was alive.
I believe/my opinion is, the relationship a Christian claims to have with God is much the same but with one major difference - the Christian is having a relationship with what they read in a book and believes so strongly that they lose sight of that fact.


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## RH Clark (May 24, 2016)

WaltL1 said:


> But I have to say I get the exact same direction, advice and help from my Grandfather. And he's been gone for many years. I can close my eyes and see him, hear him and sometimes even smell him.
> But I'm perfectly aware that it is my own mind that is generating the entire "conversation" based on memory, knowing what he would say to me in certain situations etc.
> I might even go so far as to call it a "relationship" as basically it's a continuation of our relationship from when he was alive.
> I believe/my opinion is, the relationship a Christian claims to have with God is much the same but with one major difference - the Christian is having a relationship with what they read in a book and believes so strongly that they lose sight of that fact.



There's a lot of truth in what you are saying. Your grandfather was alive and his words will always be alive inside you. Scripture is a lot like that. God's words do guide us from scripture but I've also had the Spirit of God say some amazing things to me that I don't believe I dreamed up. A couple times I've had a word of wisdom from God concerning another person and once God specifically told me how to deal with a hindering spirit that was disrupting church services. The results of that still give me goose bumps when I think about it. I once cast a spirit out of a devil worshiper when God gave me the exactly perfect thing to say to him opening the door for me to talk to him and minister to him. I've had enough like experiences to be convinced that God is real.


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## RH Clark (May 24, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Exodus 33:20



Yes, that was God's face which is why God often spoke through a bush or a fire or a cloud. Today the Spirit lives inside every born again believer. God will not however posses a man and cause him to do what he doesn't want to do. God is a small still voice that you can ignore if you want until you can no longer even hear him.


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## bullethead (May 24, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> There's a lot of truth in what you are saying. Your grandfather was alive and his words will always be alive inside you. Scripture is a lot like that. God's words do guide us from scripture but I've also had the Spirit of God say some amazing things to me that I don't believe I dreamed up. A couple times I've had a word of wisdom from God concerning another person and once God specifically told me how to deal with a hindering spirit that was disrupting church services. The results of that still give me goose bumps when I think about it. I once cast a spirit out of a devil worshiper when God gave me the exactly perfect thing to say to him opening the door for me to talk to him and minister to him. I've had enough like experiences to be convinced that God is real.


How has nobody written about you? 

Please, I beg you, cast a  holy spirit into me.
Talk to god, tell him about my situation, and please have him dropkick the holy spirit right into my heart.


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## bullethead (May 24, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Yes, that was God's face which is why God often spoke through a bush or a fire or a cloud. Today the Spirit lives inside every born again believer. God will not however posses a man and cause him to do what he doesn't want to do. God is a small still voice that you can ignore if you want until you can no longer even hear him.


Wait,  ok, it is a small still voice. You would know because you talk to him.


Like the sound of very loud thunder (Job 40:9; Psalm 29:3; 77:18; 104:7; Revelation 14:2).
» Like the sound of harps (Isaiah 30:31-32; Revelation 14:2).
» Like the sound of trumpets (Exodus 19:16, 19; Hebrews 12:19; Revelation 1:10; 4:1).


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## bullethead (May 24, 2016)

I'm starting to feel something...


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## RH Clark (May 24, 2016)

bullethead said:


> How has nobody written about you?
> 
> Please, I beg you, cast a  holy spirit into me.
> Talk to god, tell him about my situation, and please have him dropkick the holy spirit right into my heart.



So, I share something that I was hesitant to share because I knew how it would be accepted by you and you certainly didn't disappoint. Good luck, and I certainly will pray for you but God won't do anything for you unless you really surrender to him. I think it may have been your pride that has always been your downfall. God doesn't need to prove anything to you. It's only when you totally give up and acknowledge how much you need God that you will find him.


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## drippin' rock (May 24, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> There's a lot of truth in what you are saying. Your grandfather was alive and his words will always be alive inside you. Scripture is a lot like that. God's words do guide us from scripture but I've also had the Spirit of God say some amazing things to me that I don't believe I dreamed up. A couple times I've had a word of wisdom from God concerning another person and once God specifically told me how to deal with a hindering spirit that was disrupting church services. The results of that still give me goose bumps when I think about it. I once cast a spirit out of a devil worshiper when God gave me the exactly perfect thing to say to him opening the door for me to talk to him and minister to him. I've had enough like experiences to be convinced that God is real.


Coo coo for coco puffs


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## ambush80 (May 25, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> So, I share something that I was hesitant to share because I knew how it would be accepted by you and you certainly didn't disappoint. Good luck, and I certainly will pray for you but God won't do anything for you unless you really surrender to him. I think it may have been your pride that has always been your downfall. God doesn't need to prove anything to you. It's only when you totally give up and acknowledge how much you need God that you will find him.




RH,

That's the kind of stuff I can wrap my head around.  I need to see an exorcism.


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## bullethead (May 25, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> So, I share something that I was hesitant to share because I knew how it would be accepted by you and you certainly didn't disappoint. Good luck, and I certainly will pray for you but God won't do anything for you unless you really surrender to him. I think it may have been your pride that has always been your downfall. God doesn't need to prove anything to you. It's only when you totally give up and acknowledge how much you need God that you will find him.



Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. 

Literally all you had to do was use your powers or have a talk with god,  which neither are rare in your claims, and turn this in unbeliever into your greatest spokesperson.

Instead you have hurt feelings for no other reason than  you cannot back up your claims...and you blame it on me.


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## welderguy (May 25, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> So, I share something that I was hesitant to share because I knew how it would be accepted by you and you certainly didn't disappoint. Good luck, and I certainly will pray for you but God won't do anything for you unless you really surrender to him. I think it may have been your pride that has always been your downfall. God doesn't need to prove anything to you. It's only when you totally give up and acknowledge how much you need God that you will find him.


.
Coll.2:21
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

RH,if you tell a man he has to do something or be something or put any other requirement on him to be saved,then you frustrate the grace of God....and yourself.

A new birth must take place FIRST,and that is by God.He initiates,then we follow.


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## RH Clark (May 25, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> RH,
> 
> That's the kind of stuff I can wrap my head around.  I need to see an exorcism.



It was creepy to me too. In one instance I was ministering at a nursing home. All the residents that wanted to listen would gather in a large room all around the walls and I would walk around preaching. It was always a simple 10 minuet or so lesson just to encourage them and let them know that someone cared about them.

This one little lady would always come up to me and jerk on my shirt and loudly ask,"What's my name?" If she ever caught me she would keep jerking on my shirt over and over asking, "What's my name?"  I had tried to talk to her several times but she never said anything else. I had been just walking around that room preaching, and keeping a couple steps ahead of her,so she wouldn't catch me and be such a disruption for everyone else.

One morning while I was praying outside before going in to minister, the Lord told me that that woman had a spirit that was acting to disrupt the service and that I should take authority of it. I didn't know what the Lord wanted me to do and I told him that I couldn't go in there and  perform an exorcism on a nursing home patient. I was thinking they would run me out of there if I tried something like that, and I didn't know what to do anyway.

The Lord told me no, just to pray now and tell that spirit that it couldn't operate to disrupt that service any more. So I prayed about it there in the car and just like the Lord told me. I acted like I was talking directly to that spirit and sternly told it that it couldn't disrupt the service any more.

Every other time I had been there that lady was one of the first ones down to the room. That morning while I was going around inviting people down to church service, I saw that lady down the hall a little ways. I started walking toward her to ask her to come down to service but she pointed at me and started backing away. " I know you!", "I know you!" she said to me and backed away and wouldn't let me get close to her. I left her alone and went to the service with goose bumps running all over me.

I know many will think I'm just lying but that really happened to me about 15 years ago in Jasper Alabama.


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## RH Clark (May 25, 2016)

welderguy said:


> .
> Coll.2:21
> 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
> 
> ...



You know I don't agree with that. No one is frustrating God's grace. Those verses are talking about men who try to be righteous by their works.

What you are basically telling anyone is that if God doesn't want to save you then you will go to He11 because God loves some and hates some and there's nothing you can do about it. That's not the Gospel of Christ!

 No wonder these guys reject such things!!!! That's all I'll say here about the subject! I won't be involved in a Christian argument here!


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## RH Clark (May 25, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
> 
> Literally all you had to do was use your powers or have a talk with god,  which neither are rare in your claims, and turn this in unbeliever into your greatest spokesperson.
> 
> Instead you have hurt feelings for no other reason than  you cannot back up your claims...and you blame it on me.



First off, I was only pointing out your attitude toward any believer. I don't have hurt feelings, but I will question your behavior just like I would anyone who acted the same.

I have never claimed to have powers, as you say, that's ridiculous.

Second, God will never make anyone do anything against their will!!! When I cast the spirit out of that devil worshiping boy, he asked me to! He asked me to do it after God gave me the words to say to him that cut to his heart. He was a co-worker who had been bragging to some of the guys he worked close to about his devil worshiping and how he and his friends liked to dig up bodies and have sex with them. He may have been doing it just for shock value but he believed in the stuff enough to have 666 tattooed on one arm and a goat's head pentagram tattooed on his other arm with magical symbols all around. 

I don't know exactly what happened that day but when I told that spirit to leave him in the name of Jesus and laid my hand on his head, he slammed into the wall like I had shoved him with all my strength. I just barely touched him. He hit the wall and sort of shook himself off. Then he prayed with me for salvation and went to church with me that night.

You can scoff call me a liar if you want but that happened to me. I know God exists because I've seen evidence of Him in my own life and if the lives of others. Those couple of things I've shared here today aren't the only things that have happened to me in my life to prove to me that God is real. I know I can't ever prove anything to you because you weren't there, and you likely wouldn't believe even if you had been. I'm only sharing now because I hope to encourage anyone who may be reading that God is real and he does care about you.


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## ambush80 (May 25, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> First off, I was only pointing out your attitude toward any believer. I don't have hurt feelings, but I will question your behavior just like I would anyone who acted the same.
> 
> I have never claimed to have powers, as you say, that's ridiculous.
> 
> ...




I find those stories amazing.  Do you have anymore?


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## RH Clark (May 25, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I find those stories amazing.  Do you have anymore?



Just a bunch of personal things on how God has blessed me in my life. Those are the only dealings I've ever had with evil spirits. I did have a woman start barking like a dog once when praying for her but I think that was more mental than anything.

I've had God bless me many times. The biggest one was once when both my wife and I had been praying to God to help us to get out of debt. We weren't just praying expecting God to rain money from Heaven. That would be stupid. We were doing everything we knew to do to get out of debt and asking for God's help. What we really expected was for God to help us to resist purchases and give us wisdom on how to make extra money.

We weren't really in too much debt but we wanted out of what we were in. We were both working all year to pay things off but about a month before Christmas my wife lost her job. Then a week later I had news that mine would end by the beginning of next year. We knew we would find new jobs quickly but we thought that this would end our get out of debt plan for a while.

Then, unexpectedly just a few days before Christmas we received a Check in the mail that blew us away. My wife had been divorced and when I met her she had a 2 year old baby girl. I had raised that little girl all these years as my own and she had virtually no contact with the father, though it was his decision only. 

He had never paid any child support all these years and we never pushed it because he was a horrible person anyway. We didn't forbid him from seeing his daughter but the few times he did were always disastrous for her. We always thought that if we pushed for child support then he might push for part time custody.

Just before Christmas we received a lump sum check in the mail, that we never even new was coming, for all the back time child support. The father of my step daughter had been injured at work and won a settlement. The state took that settlement and paid us. We had enough to pay all our debts and have a great Christmas too. It may very well have been just a coincidence, but we had never prayed or tried so hard before to be debt free and it really seemed amazing how it all came together for us. 



For the atheists,
I do not in any way believe that God caused that man to be injured at work. I just believe that God used what happened to help us when we most needed it.


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## ambush80 (May 25, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Just a bunch of personal things on how God has blessed me in my life. Those are the only dealings I've ever had with evil spirits. I did have a woman start barking like a dog once when praying for her but I think that was more mental than anything.
> 
> I've had God bless me many times. The biggest one was once when both my wife and I had been praying to God to help us to get out of debt. We weren't just praying expecting God to rain money from Heaven. That would be stupid. We were doing everything we knew to do to get out of debt and asking for God's help. What we really expected was for God to help us to resist purchases and give us wisdom on how to make extra money.
> 
> ...



I wish more believers would share their stories of how God works miracles.  Do you have anymore examples?


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## RH Clark (May 25, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I wish more believers would share their stories of how God works miracles.  Do you have anymore examples?



I have a bunch about how God has helped me in my finances. When I was first saved, I basically lived one week to the next. Many times my wife and I had less than $30 to our name extra besides what was due for bills until the next payday.

One thing we learned from our first pastor was never to look to people to supply what you need but to only look to God as your source. As a result of that we never hung our heads and gave CensoredCensoredCensored stories expecting someone to give us something even when we couldn't attend church functions or go places with the church simply because we didn't have the extra money.

Many, many times over the years I've been blessed with money when I most needed it. I've had people walk up to me and hand me an envelope containing $500 and tell me that God told them to give this to me. I've had people put checks in the offering at church with my name on it. many many times I've had hundreds given to me out of the blue when I needed it most. Again I never acted like I needed money and I always looked fine on the outside even when I had drastic need for extra money.

Maybe it's just getting older and wiser that has caused my life to be so blessed now but I have friends that I grew up with that aren't any better off now. I attribute everything good in my life to God, no matter who wants to scoff at that.

Now I'm not extremely rich by any means but I am a long way from where I was. Now I often bless people with money, and not just among the church, wherever I think God is leading me. I was even able to give away a nice car last year to a recovering drug addict.

I'm not telling these things to brag on me, but to illustrate how far God has brought a young boy who at one time wouldn't even buy drinks out of the machine at work because there wasn't enough in the budget for it.




I do want to thank you. No matter what you might personally think about what I'm telling you, I want to thank you for the way you have allowed me to share these things with respect.


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## bullethead (May 25, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> First off, I was only pointing out your attitude toward any believer. I don't have hurt feelings, but I will question your behavior just like I would anyone who acted the same.
> 
> I have never claimed to have powers, as you say, that's ridiculous.
> 
> ...


I could not have been more serious. If God worked through you I wanted your help. If gods listens to you I had hoped you passed on my words for him to enlighten me.

That kid slamming into a wall would be a side show compared to the praise I would give and fuss I would make if things truly changed because of our conversation.


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## RH Clark (May 25, 2016)

bullethead said:


> I could not have been more serious. If God worked through you I wanted your help. If gods listens to you I had hoped you passed on my words for him to enlighten me.
> 
> That kid slamming into a wall would be a side show compared to the praise I would give and fuss I would make if things truly changed because of our conversation.



 I'm really serious too. If you really wanted to be saved and know God, you could pray, I could pray, or we could pray together and God would change your heart and you could know that he had.

As long as you are just testing God however you won't get anything. What you are doing is challenging God to do something to you to prove that he is real. God doesn't work like that. You have to reach out to God in expectation and surrender of self.

Jesus was once on the way to heal a little girl and a woman that had been bleeding for years pressed through the crowd and touched him, for she continually said within herself." If I can only touch Jesus ,I will be healed." 

When the woman touched Jesus, he felt virtue go out of himself and he asked Peter who had touched him. Peter marveled because many had been touching him crowding around ,so much so that they could hardly walk. 

Many touched Jesus but only that woman was healed, why? Because she touched him in faith expecting to be healed. The others touched him to see if anything would happen. That's how God works, through faith.

Sadly most of the church world also have no concept of faith or how it works either. For the most part they think God either will or he won't and they spend all their time trying to be good enough in themselves to get God to do something. All the while Satan works to show them their many sins, so they think that they can only get God to help them when they are completely perfect. So they never touch God in faith, because they think they are too sinful for God to help yet.

The truth is that Jesus died so that they could be sinless before God. They know this on paper, but in their hearts they still see themselves as sinful, so there is no faith and no expectation, and no miracles from God. If they could only believe!!!


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## bullethead (May 25, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I'm really serious too. If you really wanted to be saved and know God, you could pray, I could pray, or we could pray together and God would change your heart and you could know that he had.
> 
> As long as you are just testing God however you won't get anything. What you are doing is challenging God to do something to you to prove that he is real. God doesn't work like that. You have to reach out to God in expectation and surrender of self.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I'm way too skeptical for your god to influence me.


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## JB0704 (May 25, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> I wish more believers would share their stories of how God works miracles.  Do you have anymore examples?



Only story I ever shared was met with enough skepticism to discourage any future disclosure.  I believe for my reasons, you don't believe for yours.  Anything that occurs can be theorized one way or the other.   Was it God?  Or, did I just put a God face on coincidence?

I've never seen anything I would consider supernatural, and I would likely have my head examined if I did.  That in no way hinders my ability to believe in God, or Jesus.  The reason is because I view the abiogenesis theories with the same skepticism that you view the resurrection.  Both events could qualify as miraculous.  We just accept them because of our bias towards the premise (God or no God).


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## bullethead (May 25, 2016)

JB0704 said:


> Only story I ever shared was met with enough skepticism to discourage any future disclosure.  I believe for my reasons, you don't believe for yours.  Anything that occurs can be theorized one way or the other.   Was it God?  Or, did I just put a God face on coincidence?
> 
> I've never seen anything I would consider supernatural, and I would likely have my head examined if I did.  That in no way hinders my ability to believe in God, or Jesus.  The reason is because I view the abiogenesis theories with the same skepticism that you view the resurrection.  Both events could qualify as miraculous.  We just accept them because of our bias towards the premise (God or no God).


I've shared a spooky story or two in here that could be taken as me having a ghost experience.
They certainly were strange, unusual, beyond anything that even my skeptical wiring could come up with for a solid answer....but I can chalk them up to unexplainable.

I am convinced an individual's brain interprets things in ways that allow it to make sense to that particular individual. That is why 100 people can look at the same ink blotch and give 100 different answers on what it looks like.


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## RH Clark (May 25, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Yeah, I'm way too skeptical for your god to influence me.



It's sad but it really is the truth. Would you rather have a God that would take you against your will?


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## ambush80 (May 25, 2016)

JB0704 said:


> Only story I ever shared was met with enough skepticism to discourage any future disclosure.  I believe for my reasons, you don't believe for yours.  Anything that occurs can be theorized one way or the other.   Was it God?  Or, did I just put a God face on coincidence?



I've adopted a new way of viewing testimonies.  I simply listen and encourage people to share the events that have most significantly affected their lives.  If there's truth in them it will be seen.  I don't feel the need to dissect them.  They speak for themselves.  Thank you RH for being so generous with yours.  (I'd love to hear some miracle testimonies from Evergreen, Miguel, Welder, CF, SemperFi, Hobbs and Isreal).




JB0704 said:


> I've never seen anything I would consider supernatural, and I would likely have my head examined if I did.  That in no way hinders my ability to believe in God, or Jesus.  The reason is because I view the abiogenesis theories with the same skepticism that you view the resurrection.  Both events could qualify as miraculous.  We just accept them because of our bias towards the premise (God or no God).



But can you skeptically view the resurrection as a theory, possibly wrong?

P.S.  I don't hold any abiogenesis theory or string theory or double special relativity or multiverse theory to be true.  I understand (a little, by struggling with the math and learning about the experiments) how they came to be and I feel that the _method _by which they arose is sound.  I also understand quite well how God theories and resurrection mythologies developed and the "methodology" by which they were created.


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## bullethead (May 25, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> It's sad but it really is the truth. Would you rather have a God that would take you against your will?



I want a god, that knows EXACTLY what it takes to convince me. I am open to finding a god.  I wouldn't  be upset in the least if a god contacted me. It is not at all against my will.. in fact I prefer it. (Doesn't your god KNOW that?)
Shouldn't a god know what it takes to convince each single person? A god doesn't have to work for the easy ones, and if it is work for a god to convince me then it is not worthy of my worship.


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## bullethead (May 25, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Just a bunch of personal things on how God has blessed me in my life. Those are the only dealings I've ever had with evil spirits. I did have a woman start barking like a dog once when praying for her but I think that was more mental than anything.
> 
> I've had God bless me many times. The biggest one was once when both my wife and I had been praying to God to help us to get out of debt. We weren't just praying expecting God to rain money from Heaven. That would be stupid. We were doing everything we knew to do to get out of debt and asking for God's help. What we really expected was for God to help us to resist purchases and give us wisdom on how to make extra money.
> 
> ...


So, did god make you and your wife lose your jobs so that two other people who were praying for jobs could have them?

What makes you think that God changes his plan for everyone because of even one person asks for him to change something for them?
Isn't there a domino effect? Doesn't someone have to lose for you to gain? Maybe it effects the lives of thousands until the ripple effect is finally done???

Have you ever wondered why people who have birth defects, paralysis and amputees, who are also extremely religious and would qualify as much as you do, not have their prayers answered?
What about a small child that endured years of nightly molestation all the while praying for it to just stop?
Do you feel at all guilty that your god messed with destiny to answer your prayers and ignored people who by all standards were more worthy of an answered prayer?
What excuse do you use to sooth your conscience to be able to overlook all the misfortune around you and think that God threw a couple bucks your way but left a child locked in a closet for a week in her own mess only to be left out to be molested, beaten, mentally abused or tortured? 

You need a god to reconcile that for sure.


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## RH Clark (May 25, 2016)

bullethead said:


> So, did god make you and your wife lose your jobs so that two other people who were praying for jobs could have them?
> 
> What makes you think that God changes his plan for everyone because of even one person asks for him to change something for them?
> Isn't there a domino effect? Doesn't someone have to lose for you to gain? Maybe it effects the lives of thousands until the ripple effect is finally done???
> ...





No, I do not believe God micro manages all events on earth. I believe that God gave the earth to man. In my case I only know what I told you.

About molested children, I can only say that I know God feels the same way about it that you and I do. If I had all the answers then I would be God, and no body would want that, me included.


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## bullethead (May 25, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> No, I do not believe God micro manages all events on earth. I believe that God gave the earth to man. In my case I only know what I told you.
> 
> About molested children, I can only say that I know God feels the same way about it that you and I do. If I had all the answers then I would be God, and no body would want that, me included.


Wait a minute....
You don't believe God micro manages all events on earth? Just your events?
Think about it. With 2 billion Christians there are prayers going on constantly.
Many Christians think God has a plan for each and every person on this planet so if God has a plan set in place he obviously weighed all the options and scenarios eons ago so what would make you think he is going to change an outcome because you prayed, ten people prayed or 2 billion prayed?

Even if he didn't predetermine everything eons ago why would he ignore people with illesses, amputations,  deformities, absolute horrific situations of abuse and molestation, accidents and precarious situations to grant you a few bucks, another person to find their car keys, yet another person praying that traffic is light and all the trillions of  trivial nonsense that people not only pray for but swear that God answers those prayers?

You claim to talk to god. Ask him about cancer ridden children and why if he feels the same way about it as you and I do that he doesn't do anything about it.
I know I would.
Would you?
Why doesn't he?

In 2000 years of Christian prayers surely many of them were to end world hunger, end suffering, have world peace and literally NONE of that gets answered. Never in 2000 years. Not once. Yet, God magically writes checks out to random people and puts it in an offering plate. 

What chain of events do you think happened and how many people were effected both good and bad when you lost your jobs and then got hired elsewhere?


I used to dodge the hard questions too. I used to make excuses that I also knew what God wants and what God thinks and what God would do.
Then reality set in and the lack of actions out numbered the words.

I really want you to think about all that above and search your soul about what a powerful diety is capable of and what really gets done.
I am happy for a stretch of green lights too but I'd sit at every red light if it meant no cancer wards were needed.


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## bullethead (May 25, 2016)

Dear god, please save my mother in law. She has cancer. Please cure her.

Dear god, please let my mother in law not throw up for three days after her chemo treatments. Please let those treatments work.

Dear god, please let my mother just be able to swallow even a tiny morsel of food and keep it down.

Dear god, my mother in law has lost 60 lbs, the cancer he as spread into all of her organs, she cannot eat, she cannot walk, she cannot speak. Dear god in heaven PLEASE for the sake of humanity PLEASE take my mother in law tonight. Please end her suffering. She has devoted her life to you. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, because we love her we first asked for her to be healed, now because we love her PLEASE do not let her suffer for another second.

Dear god, I have prayed daily for the last 6 months, hourly for the last 3 weeks and by the minute for the last 4 days. Will you please end her suffering?

God?
God?

I don't give a Crapola that a god didn't answer my prayers. Yeah sure, I do not understand, I am not worthy, I'm an idiot...I get that.
What about her prayers, her children's prayers, her family's prayers,her parishes prayers, her Sunday school children's prayers? All the prayers of every Christian and every person that looks skyward,  clasps their hands together and with every fiber of their soul asks for cancer to end?

Dear god, let Billy like me, make Suzy go to the dance with me, let there be a parking spot close to the restaurant,  please don't let it rain tonight I need to cut the grass, please let me find my lucky sock, please let the Braves pull this one out....etc X infinity.
Yes!!!! Thanks god. I could feel you.


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## bullethead (May 25, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> No, I do not believe God micro manages all events on earth. I believe that God gave the earth to man. In my case I only know what I told you.
> 
> About molested children, I can only say that I know God feels the same way about it that you and I do. If I had all the answers then I would be God, and no body would want that, me included.



What about my post #191?


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## RH Clark (May 25, 2016)

So you think that if there were a God then everything should be perfect on earth. Since everything isn't perfect then there is no God.

Let me tell you this, you want answers but you still refuse to believe the answers you are given. The very answers that have been in the Bible all along. God gave man a choice! Man chose to know evil! Because of that evil is in the world. God also gave the earth to man and man has allowed evil to nearly destroy it. All man does is cry out for God to fix what he has caused.

God do this, God do that, and if you can't then you aren't worthy to be God, and you wonder why God doesn't answer. Do you have a covenant with God? Do you even know what a covenant is? Do you uphold your part of that covenant? Why should God uphold his?

All your arguments are like a child throwing a tantrum because he doesn't understand why everything isn't the way he wants. You have no knowledge of how God operates, no knowledge of what God has done to help man. All you want is what you want and if you don't get it then God isn't real.

God has given authority on this earth to man. Even when Jesus walked the earth he didn't heal everyone that was sick. He healed those who operated in faith. You don't even know what that means. All you do is scoff at that answer, and rage because things work differently that what would want.

You want Jesus to go and heal all the sick children. The truth is that he already did everything necessary. Then he gave man authority to lay hands on the sick. Are you laying hands on any sick children and praying for them? I would bet the answer is no! Instead you want to tell God what he needs to do and then treat him as if he doesn't exist because he doesn't obey you.


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## bullethead (May 25, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> So you think that if there were a God then everything should be perfect on earth. Since everything isn't perfect then there is no God.
> 
> Let me tell you this, you want answers but you still refuse to believe the answers you are given. The very answers that have been in the Bible all along. God gave man a choice! Man chose to know evil! Because of that evil is in the world. God also gave the earth to man and man has allowed evil to nearly destroy it. All man does is cry out for God to fix what he has caused.
> 
> ...



You have your proof and I have mine.
You ignore going over my points one by one because you have nothing to back up your claims to know anything about a god.

You talk to god, you speak for god, you know gods wants and intents and wishes. Hey, where's god?

What are you willing to bet about what I do for sick children?


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## bullethead (May 25, 2016)

RH Clark, the Make A Wish foundation and Ronald McDonald house don't run on prayers.


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## RH Clark (May 25, 2016)

I'm sorry bullethead that things aren't the way you wish they were. I wish it was easier too. I don't have all the answers. I'm learning more every day. I still don't think I'll ever have all the answers.

I can tell you though that God only moves by faith. God isn't moved by want or need, even though Jesus has compassion for every need. Every time God has answered my prayers it was because I operated by faith. Learn what that means and you will begin to have your answers.


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## bullethead (May 25, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I'm sorry bullethead that things aren't the way you wish they were. I wish it was easier too. I don't have all the answers. I'm learning more every day. I still don't think I'll ever have all the answers.
> 
> I can tell you though that God only moves by faith. God isn't moved by want or need, even though Jesus has compassion for every need. Every time God has answered my prayers it was because I operated by faith. Learn what that means and you will begin to have your answers.


I am not worried about myself in the least.

But what you try to pass off is untrue. 
I can assure that no one, nobody, had more faith than my mother in law.


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## gemcgrew (May 25, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> (I'd love to hear some miracle testimonies from Evergreen, Miguel, Welder, CF, SemperFi, Hobbs and Isreal).


About a year and a week ago, I replied to you and to Bullet in the "Fermi Paradox" thread. I loaded my truck and headed to Shreveport to help my MIL.

While driving, these words were stuck in my head and I kept singing them over and over again... "Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe; Sin had left a crimson stain, He washed it white as snow."

I was almost to Carthage, TX and I was doing about 75 mph when the utility truck pulled out in front of me(perpendicular). I had no time to even slow down before hitting the passenger side of his truck. I stood on my brakes, jerked the steering wheel to the right, yelled "No!" and closed my eyes, bracing for impact. Nothing happened that had to happen. I opened my eyes and nothing was in front of me. I looked into the rearview mirror and the utility truck was just behind me. Both of us still in the same lane.  

I exited and pulled to the side of the road in order to regain composure. 

My wife met me in the driveway and saw that I was visibly shaken. When I told her what happened, she asked, "You passed through it?". "I don't know, I closed my eyes", I replied.

I called a friend later that evening and told him what had happened. "You pass through it?", he asked. "I don't know. I closed my eyes. I am missing that information", I replied.

Now, fast forward 3 weeks. Just as I arrive back at my home, my "Low Coolant Level" light comes on. The next morning, I take my truck to the mechanic to have it checked. My wife picks me up and we return home. A couple hours later, the mechanic calls me and says, "Glenn, you have to come to my shop and see this."
"What is it?", I asked.
"I have to show you. I found something behind your radiator that can't be there. I had to cut it out", he said.

When I arrived back at his shop, he shows me a piece of steel about 6' long that had wrapped around the front of the motor, just behind the radiator.

"I can't understand how it got there", he said.

"I know how it got there", I replied. And then I told him.


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## bullethead (May 25, 2016)

Im glad you are ok.
What did the mechanic say?
Have you found out what piece of the utility truck a 6' (foot)  (or did you mean 6 inch) piece metal would have come from?
Can you post some pictures?
Was the radiator, rad line, or hose damaged?
Could that piece of metal been on the road and kicked up by another vehicle at highway speed through the grill, through the radiator and into the block?

If the coolant was low a hole had to be in the radiator,line or hose. If the metal was 6", most likely it happened that day on your ride home, as a lot of coolant would have been lost immediately let alone over 3 weeks.
If a hose had been nicked it could have been a slow leak over 3 weeks for sure. Is it possible that while swerving to avoid the utility truck that piece of metal was kicked up into the engine and the hose was nicked?

Involuntary reactions happen without any thought whatsoever.
If your account is accurate, you swerved and missed the truck and If your eyes were closed there is no telling what the driver of the utility truck did you avoid you.
What did that person have to say?


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## welderguy (May 25, 2016)

A friend of mine(very honest guy),tells a similar story to Glenn's.Only it was a large tree that fell across the road right in front of him.He said he didn't have time to put on brakes so he just braced for impact and closed his eyes.But there was no impact.As soon as he opened his eyes he looked in the rearview mirror and the tree was in the road,fully intact.


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## RH Clark (May 26, 2016)

bullethead said:


> I am not worried about myself in the least.
> 
> But what you try to pass off is untrue.
> I can assure that no one, nobody, had more faith than my mother in law.




I believe you are sincere about what you are saying concerning your mother in law. I honestly hate to hear of anyone suffering and I understand how it feels. I watched my grandmother who lived with us take weeks to die.

You say no one had or has more faith. I'm not questioning her belief in Jesus, but there's a lot more than just that to faith. Faith is a lot more than just wishing, hoping, and praying that Jesus will do something. In fact someone that has that thought process going on is not operating in faith at all. I know it's what about 90% of the church world calls faith but it's also why they never see their prayers answered either.


No, what I'm telling you is not a lie. If I had a solid week to teach you every day, all day long just from scripture and explain what it means and how to apply what it says, I might get you to begin to understand faith. No, it's not that complicated but it would take most of that time to unlearn what most churches have instilled and to get you to see the scriptures in a different way.


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## bullethead (May 26, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I believe you are sincere about what you are saying concerning your mother in law. I honestly hate to hear of anyone suffering and I understand how it feels. I watched my grandmother who lived with us take weeks to die.
> 
> You say no one had or has more faith. I'm not questioning her belief in Jesus, but there's a lot more than just that to faith. Faith is a lot more than just wishing, hoping, and praying that Jesus will do something. In fact someone that has that thought process going on is not operating in faith at all. I know it's what about 90% of the church world calls faith but it's also why they never see their prayers answered either.
> 
> ...



You are making excuses without ever knowing just how dedicated to serving Jesus she was.

You are like every other religious person I've ever known or talked to. Everybody else doesn't get scripture but you somehow do.


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## Israel (May 26, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> About a year and a week ago, I replied to you and to Bullet in the "Fermi Paradox" thread. I loaded my truck and headed to Shreveport to help my MIL.
> 
> While driving, these words were stuck in my head and I kept singing them over and over again... "Jesus paid it all, all to Him I owe; Sin had left a crimson stain, He washed it white as snow."
> 
> ...



Man, do I love hearing that.
Tell it again!
And again!

I am convinced desperation sometimes begets things comfort cannot. Maybe I am saying that wrong? Maybe the emphatic...is more what I need to say. But that's just my experience...and view. Cause I remember things seemingly asked not in desperation...which later, in desperation, have been made true to me. I guess I'm wrong. God is God.

Twenty odd years ago in about 92, I was in a spiritual situation experiencing much of oppression. Not even knowing then it was a "spiritual situation of much oppression"...it was just a place of being in a vice, that's about all I knew of it.
I had a dream. (some have asked me...how do you remember the date?...Well, cause I remember sharing the dream, and what I was doing at the time) To tell you, as I have, "I ain't no Hitler scholar" would be moot, at this point. Like most, I knew a little beyond "he was, and left a very bad stain". But this was the dream.
I stood in a pretty large room, Hitler facing it from a desk, I was to his front, right...but very aware his minions were off to the left in my periphery.
He was regaling the room with how much he had done for his people, how all he had done, was indeed on the behalf of others. I stood and hollered "Liar! All you have done has been for yourself, and no one else" Immediately he ordered those off to my left "Get him!"
I ran through a door and then through another door into a room. That room was piled high with bodies so I got in the pile and lay motionless, as if dead, like them. Almost right after I hear his soldiers come in, and surveying the pile one says "take each one and draw your blade across its eyeball..." ( a sure sign...someone's gonna flinch) and, in my minds eye in the dream..I see a very graphic of of the blade slitting an eye...and suddenly realize "no way, I am not gonna be able to bear that without giving myself away".

At that point I jump up on top of the bodies, arms waving as though in a crazy dance, laughing. They immediately begin firing their submachine guns...but as each bullet passes through me unfelt, I continue dancing...and laughing. Dream ends.
Vivid. Each part still seen in my mind as though last night.

Roughly 2013. Wife and I find ourselves on Sunday afternoon. "Hey, Honey I heard this was pretty good, it's called "Downfall"...something about Hitler's last days, I know you hate subtitles...but let's see." (Taken from the memoirs of Hitler's personal secretary who spent the last days with him in the bunker in Berlin).

Beyond its being pretty engrossing, it gets to a point, maybe 2/3 in and Hitler is sitting at this desk. (And no, the room is nothing like in my dream) and he is going on and on about his great sacrifice for the people of Germany, how all he had done, had been for them. (As I recall from the movie, some were making a plea to him to surrender as the Russian brutality against their obvious hopeless situation now made plain...and the people were suffering horribly) But he kept on, how, if the people couldn't live "up" to his sacrifice and expectation, they showed they deserved their fate. There would be no surrender.
But as I watched his self justification and pleas of utter selflessness, I was struck "Honey...honey...that's it...remember that dream I told you about?" (I had shared this with a few folks) Yes...yes...OK. I remember.
I don't expect anyone's enthusiasm to exceed hers, I have had way too much time and experience in these matters to naively think "secondary" impacts of such ever come close to the original "Eureka!" Nor, do I imagine this makes me anything at all, or signals some sort of extraordinary experience. Unbelievers have had such, clairvoyants claim much more profound experiences.
But...as to the nature of a thing revealed, way beyond the mere seeming coincidence (I had never read the memoirs...never "studied" Hitler)...this is what is of signal import to me. 

I've met so many Hitlers, and been found so often in his way of thinking not strange to myself at all. The "I am only doing this for your sakes" justification, within, without...the great self sacrificing martyr (to his own mind)...completely unaware of the true and faithful witness in it all. 

Kinda like a naked person with their feet behind their ears, thinking their words can hide anything...at all.

There's a gift that exceeds a man's most precious notion of himself.
Thinker, seeker, discerning witness of truth, good man, saved man, selfless man, selfish man, wise man, foolish man...apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor, teacher...a gift that slits the eye...open.


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## RH Clark (May 26, 2016)

bullethead said:


> You are making excuses without ever knowing just how dedicated to serving Jesus she was.
> 
> You are like every other religious person I've ever known or talked to. Everybody else doesn't get scripture but you somehow do.



I'm not at all doubting how dedicated to serving Jesus your mother in law was. That however has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

Think of this. You are accusing me of judging your mother in law falsely because I didn't know her, and then you tell me that I'm just like every other Christian. It's sort of ironic don't you think?


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## ambush80 (May 26, 2016)

Gem and Isreal,

Thanks for sharing those stories.  They're fascinating.  Any other miracles?


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## 660griz (May 26, 2016)

I was stationed in Michigan in 1984. I was riding my motorcycle home from work one night when a herd of about 20 deer ran out in front of me. I had no where to go. I closed my eyes and waited for impact. Nothing. I looked in my mirrors and saw the deer continuing to stream across the road. I think I was humming "Highway to H3LL"

I got more. Almost 40 years of driving cars, motorcycles, boats, and ATVs. No wrecks. Lots of close calls. Miracle?


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## gemcgrew (May 26, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Im glad you are ok.
> What did the mechanic say?
> Have you found out what piece of the utility truck a 6' (foot)  (or did you mean 6 inch) piece metal would have come from?
> Can you post some pictures?
> ...


Bullet, I doubt that you will raise a question, possibility or explanation that I have not fully considered over the last year. All of them are legitimate and to be considered. 

I can not say with 100% certainty that my experience was a miracle. I closed my eyes. If a miracle did take place, I believe it occurred over the course of the last year, and this in my thinking.

I believe that I am just as much the Atheist that you are, as I've always been. The Atheist that is me, will not submit to the Christian that is me. The Christian that is me, will not rehabilitate the Atheist that is me.


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## bullethead (May 26, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> I'm not at all doubting how dedicated to serving Jesus your mother in law was. That however has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
> 
> Think of this. You are accusing me of judging your mother in law falsely because I didn't know her, and then you tell me that I'm just like every other Christian. It's sort of ironic don't you think?


With the information I have about you based off of your posts made in here, that is my assessment.


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## bullethead (May 26, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> Bullet, I doubt that you will raise a question, possibility or explanation that I have not fully considered over the last year. All of them are legitimate and to be considered.
> 
> I can not say with 100% certainty that my experience was a miracle. I closed my eyes. If a miracle did take place, I believe it occurred over the course of the last year, and this in my thinking.
> 
> I believe that I am just as much the Atheist that you are, as I've always been. The Atheist that is me, will not submit to the Christian that is me. The Christian that is me, will not rehabilitate the Atheist that is me.



Gem, I appreciate your honesty. I was just trying to go over some possibilities even though  I am sure you have thought it through a thousand times over. 

Did the piece of metal look like it was from another vehicle or was it more like something that would be debris?
Was the piece of metal 6' or 6"?
Where was the coolant leaking from?
Did you or the mechanic take any pics? 
These are some things I am curious about for my own thoughts.


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## ambush80 (May 26, 2016)

660griz said:


> I was stationed in Michigan in 1984. I was riding my motorcycle home from work one night when a herd of about 20 deer ran out in front of me. I had no where to go. I closed my eyes and waited for impact. Nothing. I looked in my mirrors and saw the deer continuing to stream across the road. I think I was humming "Highway to H3LL"
> 
> I got more. Almost 40 years of driving cars, motorcycles, boats, and ATVs. No wrecks. Lots of close calls. Miracle?



Maybe Jesus saved you.  Maybe Krishna saved you.  Maybe Satan saved you to do his unholy bidding on GON forum.

Agency.

That's the thing that's interesting, not to say that the stories aren't amazing, please keep them coming.  What I would like to hear is why people infer agency to the events they experienced.


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## RH Clark (May 26, 2016)

bullethead said:


> With the information I have about you based off of your posts made in here, that is my assessment.



Either way, I wanted you to know that I wasn't questioning your mother in law's devotion or love for Jesus. I also wanted to say again how sorry I am to hear of anyone suffering like that. You have my deepest condolences.


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## bullethead (May 26, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Either way, I wanted you to know that I wasn't questioning your mother in law's devotion or love for Jesus. I also wanted to say again how sorry I am to hear of anyone suffering like that. You have my deepest condolences.


Thank you.

More to the point, I know how she lived her life.  I know what you claim is needed, I know what others claim is needed, I know what the bible says is needed.
I know when those things are met and yet the claims are hollow. 
You say you don't question her faith and then say but there is more than that....
There is ALWAYS something more when the first requirements are met and didn't work out.
It's due to lack of understanding,  incorrect worship, wrong denomination, improper procedure etc etc etc.
Let's face it, there are 2 billion Christians with ten billion reasons why the next person is not quite the Christian they are. 
There is what is claimed, there is what is done, and there are the facts afterwards.


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## RH Clark (May 26, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Thank you.
> 
> More to the point, I know how she lived her life.  I know what you claim is needed, I know what others claim is needed, I know what the bible says is needed.
> I know when those things are met and yet the claims are hollow.
> ...



You aren't even defining faith in the same way that I am. When you say faith you are talking about her belief in Jesus, her love for him, her devotion to Jesus and her lifestyle. Those things may or may not be about faith. they could just as easily be about her tradition, her upbringing and what was taught by her parents.

When I am talking about faith, I'm talking about believing a specific promise of God, because God said it, so much so that it moves you to action and defines your life. You will believe that promise no matter what your 5 physical senses tell you. You cannot be moved off that promise no matter what.


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## bullethead (May 26, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> You aren't even defining faith in the same way that I am. When you say faith you are talking about her belief in Jesus, her love for him, her devotion to Jesus and her lifestyle. Those things may or may not be about faith. they could just as easily be about her tradition, her upbringing and what was taught by her parents.
> 
> When I am talking about faith, I'm talking about believing a specific promise of God, because God said it, so much so that it moves you to action and defines your life. You will believe that promise no matter what your 5 physical senses tell you. You cannot be moved off that promise no matter what.


She taught Sunday school, taught catechism  and was a eucharistic minister. She could recite scripture with the ease that you say your name. You would learn a thing or fifty about faith from her. Imagine being in her shoes and talking to me daily for 20+ years about faith, jesus, scripture...
You don't have a clue


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## bullethead (May 26, 2016)

The thing that most stands out is that her last few words, literally, we're scolding a diety that she devoted a life to.
Everybody has a made up deathbed story about some atheist switching sides at near death. I witnessed the exact opposite when there was literally nobody waiting for her at that moment.
She looked at me as if I was right the whole time.
RHC, as sure as you are about your beliefs and as sure as you are that you see signs that confirm it....I have the exact same internal feelings about the opposite. That moment in my life was the most unexpected event that I have ever had from the most unexpected source that could exist. You want to talk about a sign. I got it.


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## bullethead (May 26, 2016)

If there ever was an example of "watch what you ask for, you just might get it" that was it.
Shook me to the core.


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## Israel (May 26, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Gem and Isreal,
> 
> Thanks for sharing those stories.  They're fascinating.  Any other miracles?


Though to me "the confirmation" was nothing less than jaw dropping, the lesson was far more of value. 
Though some things...many things, over a time become less uncommon, though still very surprising, also the many "leadings" that are quite personal, dreams, visions, etc. seemingly less striking, but later showing themselves, are no less profound of God's care.
This is one that was so very particular, it is almost humorous, in the best kind of way. As a reminder, at least to me, that God is quite concerned with what may seem at the time, a small matter to us.
In fact it was only about a month or two ago I availed myself of the interwebs to do a re check. Not that I over questioned my recollection...but precisely because it was so particular, I just wanted to see if I could revisit it.

A brother and myself were travelling from New Jersey to make a visit to another brother through upstate NY. We had decided that since time was not an essential in our travel, we'd take some back roads through towns that the interstate only skirted. We were on our way to visit a brother named Alan, and his family. Since this would take us quite near another brother with whom I had done much in the past (Australia is another story, where the three of us, Alan, myself and this "other brother" had gone)we questioned whether we should also make a stop to see this "other brother". 

Not knowing, we offered a simple prayer "Lord, we don't know if this trip should include seeing Vaughan, or just Alan"...and kinda left it at that. Not much further down the road, as I recall...merely minutes as the prayer was still quite fresh with us...I thought I caught something out of the corner of my eye.
"Brother", I said, "turn around, I can't believe I saw what I think I just saw". Turning around we headed back, and there, on the building, a sign "Just Alan", a store of some sort on a road neither of us had traveled before. The spelling of the name was the same, Alan (obviously less common than Allen), and we were both pretty giddy. Being "led" is a comfort indescribable, being able to share it with others...so much even, beyond that.
Anyway, I had told my wife about this many years ago...but as I said, this being back in the early 90's the internet wasn't what it is. So, not long ago...just to see if my mind could be bolstered by anything...I plugged in "Just Alan" for a few upstate NY counties in Google, as I hadn't remembered our exact location on that trip where it took place. To tell the truth, because at the time the store didn't seem like it was "much of anything" besides some kinda country looking store, at least to me...beyond the sign on it, I really didn't expect anything to come of it.

http://www.justalan.com/items.html

The house I live in now, (with my miracle wife), my very wonderfully provided double wide paradise has its own story of God's hilarious goodness, as do many others...maybe at this time, a little too personal to share. 
But I am pleased you appear so in the right spirit of these matters for God's goodness is often as surprisingly wonderful to the believer...as it may seem strange and foreign (as of yet) to one who may call himself otherwise.


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## bullethead (May 26, 2016)

Oh I hope for a different Alan's sake that another person with bad intentions didn't take that same sign as guidance as to who he was going to kill,rob or kidnap.


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## Israel (May 26, 2016)

bullethead said:


> The thing that most stands out is that her last few words, literally, we're scolding a diety that she devoted a life to.
> Everybody has a made up deathbed story about some atheist switching sides at near death. I witnessed the exact opposite when there was literally nobody waiting for her at that moment.
> She looked at me as if I was right the whole time.
> RHC, as sure as you are about your beliefs and as sure as you are that you see signs that confirm it....I have the exact same internal feelings about the opposite. That moment in my life was the most unexpected event that I have ever had from the most unexpected source that could exist. You want to talk about a sign. I got it.



You know, right...on certain calendar days God can easily hear millions, if not billions of voices telling Him how much they love Him. I am not endorsing "I hate you" as a fitting response at any particular time, but having learned, as I have had to, an honest "I hate you" is far more precious to God, and not at all something at which he falls over, and far more for Him to "work with" than feigned and self congratulatory protests of lips from hearts that are far from Him.
Here's a peculiar thing I believe I have come to see, God will press a man till he cannot help but speak what is in his heart. All, that is in his heart, venom or wine. I am not sure God cares much beyond that man finally being able to "see" himself as he is. Truth is very precious. Superficials...maybe not so much.
But here I would add, or ask, despite your seeming being convinced to your marrow..."how do you know to whom your mother in law spoke?" Or what? You "take away" she looked at me as though I was "right" all this time...in what...unbelief?

You know that scripture. "you who are neither hot nor cold..." Seems what the Lord appreciates least...is not a reviling diatribe of deepest invective (to me at least)...but that place where a man comforts himself in his casual acceptance of his own goodness for "going through the motions". You could ask how I have learned this, and of that peculiar method God has to disabuse a man from smug self righteousness to really living from the heart.
I don't presume, now, to be one of any particular sort...but I do find myself asking more frequently for a fire to help what I all too often perceive as a cold heart.
This, along with knowing God is not "shocked" at my estate, nor easily offended, goes a very long way to giving one such as myself...a great deal of hope.


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## Israel (May 26, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Oh I hope for a different Alan's sake that another person with bad intentions didn't take that same sign as guidance as to who he was going to kill,rob or kidnap.



I can't even presume "our" intentions were "good". All we knew is that we didn't know, and asked.
I find I am far more likely to cause havoc, probably in some equivalence to the things you have mentioned, when I set out thinking "I'm very devoted to doing the right thing, Lord...now help".


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## bullethead (May 26, 2016)

Israel said:


> I can't even presume "our" intentions were "good". All we knew is that we didn't know, and asked.
> I find I am far more likely to cause havoc, probably in some equivalence to the things you have mentioned, when I set out thinking "I'm very devoted to doing the right thing, Lord...now help".


My reply had nothing to do with you, it was just a thought on what that same sign could have done for another.


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## bullethead (May 26, 2016)

Israel said:


> You know, right...on certain calendar days God can easily hear millions, if not billions of voices telling Him how much they love Him.


No, no I do not know that at all.


Israel said:


> I am not endorsing "I hate you" as a fitting response at any particular time, but having learned, as I have had to, an honest "I hate you" is far more precious to God, and not at all something at which he falls over, and far more for Him to "work with" than feigned and self congratulatory protests of lips from hearts that are far from Him.


I do not believe for a single second that you know anything about a god, let alone what is precious. This is you interjecting what your version of God is based off of you.


Israel said:


> Here's a peculiar thing I believe I have come to see, God will press a man till he cannot help but speak what is in his heart. All, that is in his heart, venom or wine. I am not sure God cares much beyond that man finally being able to "see" himself as he is. Truth is very precious. Superficials...maybe not so much.


Peculiar yeah.


Israel said:


> But here I would add, or ask, despite your seeming being convinced to your marrow..."how do you know to whom your mother in law spoke?" Or what? You "take away" she looked at me as though I was "right" all this time...in what...unbelief?


Because we had an incredible relationship that allowed us to freely talk about all subjects including life and death. While she was in slightly better health she said she would give me an honest answer as to what is happening when she felt it was her time to die. She said she would let me know if it was joyous and majestic and full of God or if her death was just that, her body cells dieing slow and painfully with nothing joyous as she had convinced herself that it would be from her beliefs.
Her saying what she did is exactly what I did not expect from her, but she promised honesty and she was being completely honest. Her words and gaze upward and then her look to me was her keeping her word. She was ticked her god was a no-show.
Our conversations about an afterlife or any way of contact after death had each of us promising to make every effort to let the other know depending on who happened to pass first.
3 years now. No contact. 



Israel said:


> You know that scripture. "you who are neither hot nor cold..." Seems what the Lord appreciates least...is not a reviling diatribe of deepest invective (to me at least)...but that place where a man comforts himself in his casual acceptance of his own goodness for "going through the motions". You could ask how I have learned this, and of that peculiar method God has to disabuse a man from smug self righteousness to really living from the heart.


I don't have to ask because I am positive you do not know anything about any specific god other than what you have convinced yourself you think you know.


Israel said:


> I don't presume, now, to be one of any particular sort...but I do find myself asking more frequently for a fire to help what I all too often perceive as a cold heart.


Presumption is in every line you type.


Israel said:


> This, along with knowing God is not "shocked" at my estate, nor easily offended, goes a very long way to giving one such as myself...a great deal of hope.


Knowing.....nah. you convincing yourself about the actions and thoughts of an invisible, unknowable, and silent made up entity goes a very long way of giving yourself a great deal of hope.


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## gemcgrew (May 27, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Gem, I appreciate your honesty. I was just trying to go over some possibilities even though  I am sure you have thought it through a thousand times over.
> 
> Did the piece of metal look like it was from another vehicle or was it more like something that would be debris?


I wouldn't think it to be part of another vehicle. It looked to be a 2" faded red u-channel.


bullethead said:


> Was the piece of metal 6' or 6"?


When I saw it, it was in 2 pieces. Both pieces appeared to be about 3' each.


bullethead said:


> Where was the coolant leaking from?


A seam in the radiator. If you were looking through the grill of the truck, it would be the left side and close to the bottom.


bullethead said:


> Did you or the mechanic take any pics?


I didn't. If he did, he didn't mention it. 


bullethead said:


> These are some things I am curious about for my own thoughts.


I Understand.


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## Israel (May 27, 2016)

bullethead said:


> No, no I do not know that at all.
> 
> I do not believe for a single second that you know anything about a god, let alone what is precious. This is you interjecting what your version of God is based off of you.
> 
> ...


So, basically she was your willing "agent" for the other side in your experiments. And you both, convinced she was the epitome of all that her apparent God would_ have to_ accept, entered an agreement.

A three legged animal that has gnawed its own paw off to escape a trap shows more sense.
Why someone who would believe necromancy is a help to anyone has forgotten this:

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Did both she in her apparent devotion, and you from your previously confessed "devout" estate...forget?


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## gemcgrew (May 27, 2016)

Bullet, in the 20 years of discussing scripture with your MIL, did she ever tell you that there is only one mediator between God and men?


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## bullethead (May 27, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> Bullet, in the 20 years of discussing scripture with your MIL, did she ever tell you that there is only one mediator between God and men?


Absolutely. The man Jesus Christ


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## bullethead (May 27, 2016)

Israel said:


> So, basically she was your willing "agent" for the other side in your experiments. And you both, convinced she was the epitome of all that her apparent God would_ have to_ accept, entered an agreement.
> 
> A three legged animal that has gnawed its own paw off to escape a trap shows more sense.
> Why someone who would believe necromancy is a help to anyone has forgotten this:
> ...



She wanted to prove me wrong and on her deathbed she was truthful.

My previous devout state allows me to recall scripture. My current state allows me to take it for the man made work it is.

In your twisted heap of scripture quotes, there is one about some guy on his deathbed asking his father why he was forsaken.
Her final breaths might have been along those same lines.


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## 660griz (May 27, 2016)

ambush80 said:


> Maybe Jesus saved you.  Maybe Krishna saved you.  Maybe Satan saved you to do his unholy bidding on GON forum.
> 
> Agency.
> 
> That's the thing that's interesting, not to say that the stories aren't amazing, please keep them coming.  What I would like to hear is why people infer agency to the events they experienced.



Some of it was timing, some of it was my Ninja like reflexes. 
Satan may have had a part too.


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## Israel (May 27, 2016)

bullethead said:


> She wanted to prove me wrong and on her deathbed she was truthful.
> 
> My previous devout state allows me to recall scripture. My current state allows me to take it for the man made work it is.
> 
> ...



Yep.


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## bullethead (May 27, 2016)

Israel said:


> So, basically she was your willing "agent" for the other side in your experiments. And you both, convinced she was the epitome of all that her apparent God would_ have to_ accept, entered an agreement.
> 
> A three legged animal that has gnawed its own paw off to escape a trap shows more sense.
> Why someone who would believe necromancy is a help to anyone has forgotten this:
> ...


Mat. 7:1-3.
Yep


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## Israel (May 27, 2016)

bullethead said:


> Mat. 7:1-3.
> Yep



Now, you're talkin'!


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