# Thoughts on Salvation



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

There seems to be a couple of things nobody on here agrees on: salvation and predestination.  We tend to look at the Bible as if it was written just for us, but there are global implications of our beliefs.  

If you have to be baptized to be saved, does that mean everybody who died after the resurection, but didn't know what baptizing was, is in he11?  All of the eskimos, native americans, pacific islanders, people who had no way of knowing they should be baptized.

And, if we are predestined, how did all of these people respond to a call about Jesus, if they had no way of knowing he existed?  Did some eskimos who never heard of our God end up in heaven while their family went to he11 because God just picked one of the bunch?

I have had many conversations in the past on this, and it seems a strict interpretation of the Bible would indicate all of the aforementioned folks are in he11.  I refuse to believe that, and think Romans gives them an "out," by referencing nature as God's witness.  But what does this say about all of our doctrine on salvation?  Does God make exceptions?


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 21, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> There seems to be a couple of things nobody on here agrees on: salvation and predestination.  We tend to look at the Bible as if it was written just for us, but there are global implications of our beliefs.
> 
> If you have to be baptized to be saved, does that mean everybody who died after the resurection, but didn't know what baptizing was, is in he11?  All of the eskimos, native americans, pacific islanders, people who had no way of knowing they should be baptized.
> 
> ...



I am no bible scolar but I believe all mankind was baptised by Noah's flood and all have this baptism in their hearts. Now was Noah's a baptism onto salvation? I think so. Because from it all know the call.

 I know that many will quote scripture and say salvation is limited to being through Christ and interpret this as meaning to be a Christian. But is Christ only active in christianity? I don't think so. When Paul was still a jew Jesus ministered to him one on one.

So do we foolishly pride ourselves that Christ, the Saviour, is only ministering in and through our communion? What do we say is in Christ?  It is that which Is and has always been just and of great effect.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 21, 2011)

> I am no bible scolar but I believe all mankind was baptised by Noah's flood and all have this baptism in their hearts.



I'm curious....never heard this before.  What makes you believe that?


----------



## The Foreigner (Sep 21, 2011)

WOW!!! Where to begin?

JB0704 - I understand your confusion on the predestination issue. Predestination / election in Scripture is choice of God before time began - that's what Paul says in Eph 1:4. That choice is the cause of people really and truly accepting Christ as their Lord and Saviour, in time.   So the predestination / election that the Bible speaks of is no barrier to offering or receiving the gospel, indeed quite the contrary - it the foundation for it. We do not know who is predestined so we freely offer the gospel to any who will hear and believe.

gordon 2 - I've appreciated many of your sensible comments on this forum, but not this one. 

You cite Scripture (Noah's flood) to prove your position (mistakenly) and then tell us we can't cite Scripture to disprove your position. How does that work? Seems a little one-sided to me.

Christ himself tells us there are two ways - the broad way that leads to destruction and the narrow way that leads to life (Matt 7;13-14). He also tells some of the Pharisees that they are sons of the Devil (Jn 8:44). He also speaks of judgment saying to some "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matt 25:41). He also said "I am the way the truth and the life no-one comes to the Father but by me" (Jn 14:6)

So ... what do you do. The Christ you profess to follow clearly speaks of judgment and ****ation and salvation for other. Moreover, he identifies the method of salvation - HIMSELF.

Furthermore your idea of baptism in Noah is bizarre - the baptism of the earth in Noah's day had a two-fold significance - to destruction for all those outside the Ark, and temporal salvation for those inside the Ark. Yet not even all of Noah's house were saved - look at the curse upon Canaan!  So clearly not all are saved.

Moreover your point about Paul being a Jew (I take it you mean a practicing Jew) when Christ spoke to him ignores the point that he ceased to then be a practicing Jew when he accepted Christ! He became a servant of Christ - a Christian. Just an atheist stops being an atheist when he believes in God and Christ! God works where he wills, but he does not allow men to remain in that previous state they were in,.

I strongly encourage you to turn from the error of what you have said about Christ. You haven't even picked and chosen what to believe, but rather you've simply ignored what Christ himself says. 

Peace.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I'm curious....never heard this before.  What makes you believe that?



I want your thoughts too HF.

And x2 on the thoughts from G2, I'm very curious.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

The Foreigner said:


> Predestination / election in Scripture is choice of God before time began - that's what Paul says in Eph 1:4. That choice is the cause of people really and truly accepting Christ as their Lord and Saviour, in time.


 
So, is predestination limited to those who have heard?  Or, is there a post-mortem option.  Otherwise, most the eskimos have gone to punishment.  I am not trying to be difficult, but this is one of the few problems I have with predestination....it rules out the vast majority of people who have ever lived, and condemns them without a chance.

On baptism, the comment from G2 makes sense from a "everybody has a chance" perspective.  Because I know many believe it is essential, but there are many who never heard the gospel, let alone were taught the necessity of baptism.  I follow your scripture, and see your point, but think there must be "reason" within the system, if that makes sense.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 21, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I'm curious....never heard this before.  What makes you believe that?


In the bible.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 21, 2011)

> I want your thoughts too HF.



Do you have to be baptized to be saved?  Absolutely not.  Are the saved called the be baptized?  Absolutely.

The saved are predestined.  There is no way around that scripturally.  How, exactly, does that work?  I'll be honest.  It hurts my brain to try to come up with a layman's terms explanation.  They are predestined.  Does that mean that God chose me and not others?  Possibly...yes.  It's not inconsistent with scripture.

One thing, in regard to this thread, that I am 100% confident of is this.  Yes, there will be people in He|| who never heard the name of Jesus and never heard the gospel.  I would imagine you would say they were never given the opportunity to be saved (which seems unfair to some).

When he gave the Great Commission, Jesus essentially said that he had the authority to give his message to all people himself (i.e....they will all know).  But then he went on to say essentially "but I choose you to spread my message...go do it".

It doesn't need spreading if nature reveals the gospel.  In my reading, nature does not reveal the gospel...it reveals God.  We, disciples, are charged with spreading the gospel message to all people.  If they do not hear it and end up suffering for eternity, it is for one reason....we failed.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 21, 2011)

> In the bible.



Yes.  Excellent work.  Thank you Captain Obvious.  



Care to share exactly where and what passages you might be referring to to support the position?  I've never heard that before.  I'd like to know where the support is so that I can study for myself.



I suppose Google will have to be my friend since Gordo chooses to be coy.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> One thing, in regard to this thread, that I am 100% confident of is this.  Yes, there will be people in He|| who never heard the name of Jesus and never heard the gospel.  I would imagine you would say they were never given the opportunity to be saved (which seems unfair to some).



But, considering there were many people who we were not aware of, for thousands of years.......your interpretation leads you to believe they are all in he11 because they did not hear the gospel, which we did not give them because we didn't know they were there?


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 21, 2011)

The Foreigner said:


> WOW!!! Where to begin?
> 
> JB0704 - I understand your confusion on the predestination issue. Predestination / election in Scripture is choice of God before time began - that's what Paul says in Eph 1:4. That choice is the cause of people really and truly accepting Christ as their Lord and Saviour, in time.   So the predestination / election that the Bible speaks of is no barrier to offering or receiving the gospel, indeed quite the contrary - it the foundation for it. We do not know who is predestined so we freely offer the gospel to any who will hear and believe.
> 
> ...



Oh! Oh! I'm in trouble.

You cite Scripture (Noah's flood) to prove your position (mistakenly) and then tell us we can't cite Scripture to disprove your position. How does that work? Seems a little one-sided to me.

Gee are you a lawyer or something like that? I have said no such thing as you state here. Cite away, if you find it a nessecity to disprove my position cite all the scripture you wish. What is one sided is that I am not a lawyer and your are. Still love you though. 


Christ himself tells us there are two ways - the broad way that leads to destruction and the narrow way that leads to life (Matt 7;13-14). He also tells some of the Pharisees that they are sons of the Devil (Jn 8:44). He also speaks of judgment saying to some "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matt 25:41). He also said "I am the way the truth and the life no-one comes to the Father but by me" 

I agree with everything here. I just don't get your point if there is one. Where have I said that Jesus is not the way, the truth and the life and that no-one comea to Father but by Him? 

Even Rompold of the Baily, a characature would not resort to such blarny? But I love you even more brother.

Furthermore your idea of baptism in Noah is bizarre - the baptism of the earth in Noah's day had a two-fold significance - to destruction for all those outside the Ark, and temporal salvation for those inside the Ark. Yet not even all of Noah's house were saved - look at the curse upon Canaan!  So clearly not all are saved.

I come by this through scripture. I couldn't read very well until I got to the 11th grade so have patience and my memory is no camera. I will find the source or Formula 1 will. Patientez SVP. However if you look closely at the evidence of my words I said they were saved from destruction to answer to the call. It is my understanding that in the flood we have the "type" of all baptisms, both in Moses and in Christ.

Moreover your point about Paul being a Jew (I take it you mean a practicing Jew) when Christ spoke to him ignores the point that he ceased to then be a practicing Jew when he accepted Christ! He became a servant of Christ - a Christian. Just an atheist stops being an atheist when he believes in God and Christ! God works where he wills, but he does not allow men to remain in that previous state they were in,.

My dear brother whom I love more and more, you are making things up. Your carnal mind is taking the lead in expessing your love for the Lord. 

If you read the account of Paul and his conversion you will see that Christ ministered to Paul when he was on the road to Demascus and said, "Oh, Paul why do you persecute me?" And in such a manner did Christ minister to Paul. But Paul was not a christian for this. Paul became a christian because another christian, a brother, laid his hands on him and Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit.

I strongly encourage you to turn from the error of what you have said about Christ. You haven't even picked and chosen what to believe, but rather you've simply ignored what Christ himself says

I am but a poor man in Christ. I have very few words of mine and ever hope that my words are His or from Him when I address the people of my communion.

I have picked and chosen to believe in the will of God through Christ... from His very words and deeds, from the very prophets and their words that prophecied on the Breaker and his judgement and for this I have but love and patience for the words of men.

I am greatful that you would what me to remove my errors in the Lord, for what profits is there in that? Tell me your motive is Christ and I will pray with you.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

So, G2, is it safe to assume that you believe God makes a provision for all?  That is my basic belief.  I get confused when salvation becomes technical, predestination enters the conversation, and baptism becomes a requirement.  

For the others, is the gospel the only way?  Could it be presented post-mortem?  Or, did everybody who died on the North American continent between @33 A.D. and 1492 A.D. go to he11?

Again, I would like for this thread to remain an exchange of ideas.  My questions are sincere, and there is no sarcasm or challenging involved.


----------



## The Foreigner (Sep 21, 2011)

OK Gordon 2   - let's take another try at this:

You said that everyone was baptized by Noah's flood and all have baptism in their hearts. You then stated the Noah's baptism was a baptism unto salvation. You cited Noah's baptism as evidence, and then precluded others citing Scripture by saying "I know that many will quote scripture and say salvation is limited to being through Christ and interpret this as meaning to be a Christian. But is Christ only active in christianity? I don't think so".  Do I need to go on...

You then argued that Christ works more than one way- you said "So do we foolishly pride ourselves that Christ, the Saviour, is only ministering in and through our communion?". I answered that he is not - that there is only one way and that is His way, not the "many ways to Jesus" that you are positing. Is that clearer?

Yes my motives, as far as I can measure them, were honourable and Christ-like in this situation. Your many ways to Christ are not Christ's ways, and I demonstrated that by Scripture, which is afterall our ultimate judge on these matters.  What "profits are there" in removing our errors - well, salvation may be one of them, conformity to Christ another, peace with brethren etc etc.


----------



## The Foreigner (Sep 21, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> So, G2, is it safe to assume that you believe God makes a provision for all?  That is my basic belief.  I get confused when salvation becomes technical, predestination enters the conversation, and baptism becomes a requirement.
> 
> For the others, is the gospel the only way?  Could it be presented post-mortem?  Or, did everybody who died on the North American continent between @33 A.D. and 1492 A.D. go to he11?
> 
> Again, I would like for this thread to remain an exchange of ideas.  My questions are sincere, and there is no sarcasm or challenging involved.



JB0704 I appreciate your engagement in this. Look at the earlier texts that I cited to Gordon2 and tell me if that looks like universal salvation   ( the broad way that leads to destruction and the narrow way that leads to life (Matt 7;13-14). He also tells some of the Pharisees that they are sons of the Devil (Jn 8:44). He also speaks of judgment saying to some "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matt 25:41). He also said "I am the way the truth and the life no-one comes to the Father but by me" (Jn 14:6) )

I can't see how one can get universal salvation out of any of these, when they come from Christ's own mouth.  Ignore predestination / election for a minute and deal with the central issue: can God save whom he wants? Is he obliged to save any? Is he obliged to save all?   I say no - indeed he tells us that Pharaoh was born so that he might be destroyed, not saved. God is not bound by our sense of right and wrong, and I think that is what you are struggling with. 

Hope this helps friend

Peace


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 21, 2011)

> But, considering there were many people who we were not aware of, for thousands of years.......your interpretation leads you to believe they are all in he11 because they did not hear the gospel, which we did not give them because we didn't know they were there?



So you're speaking pre-gospel?  Pre-Jesus on earth?


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

The Foreigner said:


> I can't see how one can get universal salvation out of any of these, when they come from Christ's own mouth.



I am not trying to question the merits of either debate (predes & Baptism).  I guess my premise is that salvation is a universal offer (John 3:17), not a universal mandate.




The Foreigner said:


> God is not bound by our sense of right and wrong, and I think that is what you are struggling with.
> 
> Hope this helps friend
> 
> Peace



I appreciate your take, and the scriptural references.  And, perhaps you are correct in your assessment of my struggle.  But, aren't we made in God's image?  Our "internal compass" comes from somewhere (I know there is also an evolutionary argument for it, but I will stick with the soul).  

Here is another part of it: love.  The God-human interaction is described as father-son.  I can think of no circumstance where I would set my child up for eternal condemnation.  Is that my "human perspective," Yes.  But it is formed from an understanding of love.  The sacrifice of Jesus for a few, and the condemnation of many, does not line up with the biblical definition of the term (1 Cor. 13).  So, sending the eskimos to he11 does not "line up" with the God of love.

Does that make sense?


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> So you're speaking pre-gospel?  Pre-Jesus on earth?



No, they had another treatment all together, and I think Jesus preached to them during his three day intermission.

I gave an example here:



> For the others, is the gospel the only way? Could it be presented post-mortem? Or, did everybody who died on the North American continent between @33 A.D. and 1492 A.D. go to he11?


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 21, 2011)

> I gave an example here:



Yeh...I just missed it.  My fault.



> Or, did everybody who died on the North American continent between @33 A.D. and 1492 A.D. go to he11?



Let me turn this around if you will...

How would they have been saved in your mind?  

I get from your earlier post that you can't accept that God didn't provide a way for them to be saved (and I agree that is tough to swallow).  But if what they needed for salvation was written on their hearts, why did Jesus come?  Why did he have three years of ministry?  Why wouldn't he have just quietly died to atone for sins rather than begin to spread the message that no one comes to the Father, but through him?

Jesus commanded the disciples to spread the gospel.  If it didn't need to be spread, why did he send them?


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 21, 2011)

> Here is another part of it: love. The God-human interaction is described as father-son. I can think of no circumstance where I would set my child up for eternal condemnation.



Can you think of a circumstance where you would voluntarily send your daughter to die for the transgressions of someone else?

We certainly have a concept of love.  But can what we understand as love come close, in comparison, to God's love?  I don't believe so.  Our concept of love is tainted by sin.  It is just a glimpse of the love of the Father.

He certainly chose the Jews over all others in the OT.  What do you suppose happened to all those non-Jew people prior to Jesus' arrival and "adoption" of the gentiles?


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

Well, HF, that is the question.............

I tend to think, or hope, or whatever, that everybody has a chance, the Americans, the Indians, the Eskimos.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Can you think of a circumstance where you would voluntarily send your daughter to die for the transgressions of someone else?



No.  Which adds to the confusuion.




Huntinfool said:


> We certainly have a concept of love.  But can what we understand as love come close, in comparison, to God's love?  I don't believe so.  Our concept of love is tainted by sin.  It is just a glimpse of the love of the Father.



Then let's stick with the concept given in 1 cor 13.  Love bears all things, endures all things. How is eternal condemnation of the hopeless in line with that?


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> He certainly chose the Jews over all others in the OT.  What do you suppose happened to all those non-Jew people prior to Jesus' arrival and "adoption" of the gentiles?



I always kind-of figured they were given the post mortem chance everybody else in paradise was given.  I am not aware of evidence to the contrary.


----------



## formula1 (Sep 21, 2011)

*Re:*

I don't know why salvation should be difficult at all.  Its all over the scriptures and the very purpose of them.  Those who have been humbled, repent, believe and receive the Holy Spirit throught the Gospel of Christ, and salvation and eternal life belong to them.  The way of salvation could not be more clear, and the way of rejection of Christ is equally clear.  Sorry that I posted all these scriptures but it appears to be necessary these days because of the futility of our minds. I am going to trust the Word of God as Truth, with no compromise.

Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

John 3
3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again* he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 

John 3:14-21
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19 And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. 20 For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. 21 But whoever does what is 
true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God."

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

John 4:14
but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

John 6:54
Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 10:9
I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.

John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

John 12:25
Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

John 17:3
And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 4:12
And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 15:11
But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."

Acts 16:30-32
30 Then he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31 And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him 
and to all who were in his house.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Romans 5:10
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.

Romans 5:21
so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:22-23
But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 10:8-10
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart 
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Romans 10:13
For "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

Galatians 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Ephesians 2
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

1 Thessalonians 5:9
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth.

1 Timothy 2
3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him

1 Peter1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, 13 waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Titus 3
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.*


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 21, 2011)

Now it was long ago, when Noah was still building the ark which saved only a small group of eight people"by water", and when God was still waiting patiently, that these spirits refused to believe. That water is a type of the baptism which saves you now, and which is not the washing off of physical dirt but a pledge made to God from a good conscience, throught the resurrection of Jesus Christ....

1 Peter 20-22,
--------------------------------
Why is it that we ask, plead and preach to people to cleave to the Word and yet make of it in our own houses, in our own closets, as the holes in the sides of Jesus were to Thomas? A place to insert our fingers so we can believe.  Have we so little faith that we cannot make of God's word the sinews and nerves of our hearts?


----------



## Ronnie T (Sep 21, 2011)

The questions in regard to those who have not been taught by a disciple or Christ's Gospel are not going to be answered by mere humans.  We're not in a position to render proofs of understanding concerning those people.

Our life's mission is to become disciples, become lights into the world, share the gospel with all that's in us, and give ourselves as living sacrifices.

It isn't within me or anyone else to deal with what's outside of Christ.
But God will take care of it.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 21, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> The questions in regard to those who have not been taught by a disciple or Christ's Gospel are not going to be answered by mere humans.  We're not in a position to render proofs of understanding concerning those people.
> 
> Our life's mission is to become disciples, become lights into the world, share the gospel with all that's in us, and give ourselves as living sacrifices.
> 
> ...



And that being said, IT IS  in agreement with the majority view of christians through out the world. Those that have an opposing view should check that their's might be parochial, in the narrow sense of the word. What is outside of Christ begs what is inside.


----------



## The Foreigner (Sep 21, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Now it was long ago, when Noah was still building the ark which saved only a small group of eight people"by water", and when God was still waiting patiently, that these spirits refused to believe. That water is a type of the baptism which saves you now, and which is not the washing off of physical dirt but a pledge made to God from a good conscience, throught the resurrection of Jesus Christ....
> 
> 1 Peter 20-22,
> --------------------------------
> Why is it that we ask, plead and preach to people to cleave to the Word and yet make of it in our own houses, in our own closets, as the holes in the sides of Jesus were to Thomas? A place to insert our fingers so we can believe.  Have we so little faith that we cannot make of God's word the sinews and nerves of our hearts?



Yes but the material point is "who benefited from the baptism?" - Noah and his family. Peter even tells us that - "which saved only a small group of eight people" - precisely - you are right that the flood is a type of baptism - but it was only saving for those in the ark. The rest were destroyed. So you're still left with a problem of non-universal salvation.


----------



## Michael F. Gray (Sep 21, 2011)

It's difficult to make a point "Clear as Mud" when you start the forum by broadcasting an incorrect assumption.  The simpliest way to explain it is the analogy of a wedding ring. Are you wed because you wear the ring, ...or do you wear the ring because you are wed? It's an outward and visible symbol of an inward change and subsequent vows you made before man and God. Baptism is not something we do to get saved. We follow the Lord in beliver's baptism because we are saved. One of the most abused scriptures is Acts 2:38 . "Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Many interpet this verse wrongly as if the key word, "REPENT" were missing. One can not be saved apart from repentance, which implies a change in ones direction. A realization one is not walking after Christ, and a change accomplished by the surrender of one's will leads to a change in eternal destiny. I will admit knowledge of one or more groups who profess salvation comes with baptism. I do not choose to be confrontational with them, or anyone else. To reach that conclusion, and the "doctrine" is based on the verse already cited, on must ignore the action verb, REPENT.  The Apostle makes it abundantly clear we will not see the Kingdom of God apart from making a deliberate decision to turn away from, or repent of our sins.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

Michael F. Gray said:


> It's difficult to make a point "Clear as Mud" when you start the forum by broadcasting an incorrect assumption.



Thanks for that.  I did not intend to make an assumption on baptism as a saving device?  Instead, I was addressing how these two items work in a broader context. 




Michael F. Gray said:


> The simpliest way to explain it is the analogy of a wedding ring. Are you wed because you wear the ring, ...or do you wear the ring because you are wed? It's an outward and visible symbol of an inward change and subsequent vows you made before man and God. Baptism is not something we do to get saved. We follow the Lord in beliver's baptism because we are saved. One of the most abused scriptures is Acts 2:38 . "Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Many interpet this verse wrongly as if the key word, "REPENT" were missing. One can not be saved apart from repentance, which implies a change in ones direction. A realization one is not walking after Christ, and a change accomplished by the surrender of one's will leads to a change in eternal destiny.



Ok.  I tend to agree with you here.  My broader question is: what about those who had no idea they had to repent and accept Jesus?  Is it possible there is a provision for them?  Without baptism?  If they were preselected, then they went to heaven to meet a God they had never heard of.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> The questions in regard to those who have not been taught by a disciple or Christ's Gospel are not going to be answered by mere humans.
> 
> 
> But God will take care of it.



Maybe you and I are on a similar page?  Could there be a path outside what is given?  By saying there is not is limiting, isn't it?


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

formula1 said:


> I don't know why salvation should be difficult at all.  Its all over the scriptures and the very purpose of them.



WOW, F1.  That was a ton of research, and I appreciate it.  But this, and RT's comments got me to thinking......

Typically those who believe certain aspects of the Bible are not literal get accused of limiting God's power.  Could that argument also be used here, and assume that God's power and authority allows for another way for those who have never had the chance to accept or reject the gospel?


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

Foreigner, I thought on some of your questions on the ride home, here's where I am at:



The Foreigner said:


> can God save whom he wants?



Yes, and I believe scripture tells us he wants to save all of us (John 3:16-17).



The Foreigner said:


> Is he obliged to save any?



Interesting question, and here is my take: for us, maybe, and only to the extent his word is binding (for instance, a person doing everything the Bible says needs to be done to be saved). Does that make any sense?  I am being very careful how I word it.  For Jesus, maybe (Eph. 4:32).  This could go in many directions, I am not certain the entire implications of that verse, but I think it means we are forgiven for Christ, not us.



The Foreigner said:


> Is he obliged to save all?



No.


----------



## formula1 (Sep 21, 2011)

*Re:*

JB,

I have no doubt as to the overwhelming lovingkindess, mercy and grace of our Father in heaven and He desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. God, in other words, knows whose heart is pure before Him and whose needs to know Him, and His Spirit searches for them.  That's been true throughout all of time!

I look at it this way, God finds those who desire Him so no one will be without Jesus.  In fact, the Lord holds back His coming precisely for this purpose. Acts 10 (Cornelius and his family) is a very good example. This goes on by the will of God to this day, IMHO!  Now I can't quote other scriptures to this effect, bu I know the heart of God!


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 21, 2011)

The Foreigner said:


> Yes but the material point is "who benefited from the baptism?" - Noah and his family. Peter even tells us that - "which saved only a small group of eight people" - precisely - you are right that the flood is a type of baptism - but it was only saving for those in the ark. The rest were destroyed. So you're still left with a problem of non-universal salvation.



I don't what to go on and on and on with this. This is what Peter says, 

That water is a type of the baptism which saves you now...

It not only permitted salvation to the eight of the New Beginning, but also everyone "now"...now in the sense that Peter means it.

We are probably on the same page just a different Hiccup. I see it this way....Noah's baptism permits our response to the Lord's call in Jesus to be baptised and to convert. We can say, Yea! or Nay! Yes or No. Because of Noah.

If we are Jews we surely understand this from our history. If we are gentile we surely understand this, for most men know that the last creation was from the Great Flood. And if we what to be saved, since Noah was saved, we have every interest in our marrow to find out why his bones pounded cork in a"bizarre"boat.

And then Christ comes along and says follow me, and you shall live, receive my baptism.

In Christ always and forever.... Peace....


----------



## mtnwoman (Sep 21, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Yeh...I just missed it.  My fault.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Agreed.

If we are 'elected' and predestined to be saved why do we need to preach the gospel? Wouldn't that be a waste of time for folks who are already saved, I mean couldn't we use our time more wisely feeding and saving hungry children rather than preaching to the presaved? If they're saved, they are saved, even if they don't know it....right?


----------



## mtnwoman (Sep 21, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Well, HF, that is the question.............
> 
> I tend to think, or hope, or whatever, that everybody has a chance, the Americans, the Indians, the Eskimos.



Me, too. Without that promise in John 3:16 what hope would we have to even share that promise. It would be a lie if we told someone that Christ died for everyone, when in fact our belief was that only some were chosen. I could never tell anyone that.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

formula1 said:


> bu I know the heart of God!



Ok, this is where I was going.  The heart of God.  It is easy to look at scripture and profess the condemnation of those who have never heard, and never had a chance.  Predestination, baptism, repent and believe are all useless if we do not know who, or what, we are accepting.  We were born in a place and time where we all should have at least heard something about Jesus.  But, the heart of God, what little I have read through scripture (which is all we have), would tell me there is another way for those who lived and died on some island in the middle of the pacific ocean 1,000 yrs before the gospel ever reached them.  

If not, are we limiting God?  If so, what does that say about predestination and baptism?  It is something I have been "turning over" for a few years now trying to wrap my head around.  

I am enjoying all of the insight form everybody.


----------



## formula1 (Sep 21, 2011)

*Re:*

JB,

I'm not looking to figure out God.  I trust Him!  
If God does not address something and He doesnt want you to know, you will not know. So just trust Him!


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

formula1 said:


> If God does not address something and He doesnt want you to know, you will not know. So just trust Him!



You and my wife are very similar in y'alls faith.  I'm not quite "wired" that way, there are times when I wish I was.


----------



## win270wsm (Sep 21, 2011)

Its hard to believe this many would would have a hard time understanding biblical truth!
Here ya go: check out all you want to know!
http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/


----------



## win270wsm (Sep 21, 2011)

God predestined all to be saved and to believe in Christ. As far as water baptism, that is not even in the "gentile program" in this present evil age. water baptism has no saving value whatsoever!
If you look at the website I posted above,they can explain it better than I. Look on the left at bible study articles,choose your topic and read the word of GOD!


----------



## mtnwoman (Sep 21, 2011)

Michael F. Gray said:


> It's difficult to make a point "Clear as Mud" when you start the forum by broadcasting an incorrect assumption.  The simpliest way to explain it is the analogy of a wedding ring. Are you wed because you wear the ring, ...or do you wear the ring because you are wed? It's an outward and visible symbol of an inward change and subsequent vows you made before man and God. Baptism is not something we do to get saved. We follow the Lord in beliver's baptism because we are saved. One of the most abused scriptures is Acts 2:38 . "Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Many interpet this verse wrongly as if the key word, "REPENT" were missing. One can not be saved apart from repentance, which implies a change in ones direction. A realization one is not walking after Christ, and a change accomplished by the surrender of one's will leads to a change in eternal destiny. I will admit knowledge of one or more groups who profess salvation comes with baptism. I do not choose to be confrontational with them, or anyone else. To reach that conclusion, and the "doctrine" is based on the verse already cited, on must ignore the action verb, REPENT.  The Apostle makes it abundantly clear we will not see the Kingdom of God apart from making a deliberate decision to turn away from, or repent of our sins.



Makes perfect sense to me.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

Okay.  I am not asking how to be saved.  I am not endorsing, or opposing, predestination or Baptism salvation.

I am asking an abstract question.  For those who like to skim, and not read:

What about the eskimos?  What are the implications for all other doctrine questions?

It is not simple.  It is not easy to answer.  I was hoping, and have gotten, some pretty decent insight.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

win270wsm said:


> Its hard to believe this many would would have a hard time understanding biblical truth!



And you win them by insulting them?


----------



## formula1 (Sep 21, 2011)

*Re:*



JB0704 said:


> You and my wife are very similar in y'alls faith.  I'm not quite "wired" that way, there are times when I wish I was.



You are not that way yet! 

If you are brave enough, go into your prayer closet and ask God to teach you to trust Him! I promise He will answer.

Just remember what I said, if you are brave enough!


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

win270wsm said:


> Look on the left at bible study articles,choose your topic and read the word of GOD!



.....and don't ask any questions of other believers?  Is that what you are saying?  

"Good grief"-Charlie Brown (Huntingfools recolection).  

What is this forum for if not for an open discussion of faith.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

formula1 said:


> If you are brave enough, go into your prayer closet and ask God to teach you to trust Him!




You have to remember, I did read Job.......


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 21, 2011)

win270wsm said:


> As far as water baptism, that is not even in the "gentile program" in this present evil age. water baptism has no saving value whatsoever!



I skimmed the site and have no idea what they believe about water baptism, other than they don't think much of it.  Do they advocate water baptism ... for any reason?


----------



## Ronnie T (Sep 21, 2011)

Michael F. Gray said:


> It's difficult to make a point "Clear as Mud" when you start the forum by broadcasting an incorrect assumption.  The simpliest way to explain it is the analogy of a wedding ring. Are you wed because you wear the ring, ...or do you wear the ring because you are wed? It's an outward and visible symbol of an inward change and subsequent vows you made before man and God. Baptism is not something we do to get saved. We follow the Lord in beliver's baptism because we are saved. One of the most abused scriptures is Acts 2:38 . "Then Peter said unto them, REPENT, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Many interpet this verse wrongly as if the key word, "REPENT" were missing. One can not be saved apart from repentance, which implies a change in ones direction. A realization one is not walking after Christ, and a change accomplished by the surrender of one's will leads to a change in eternal destiny. I will admit knowledge of one or more groups who profess salvation comes with baptism. I do not choose to be confrontational with them, or anyone else. To reach that conclusion, and the "doctrine" is based on the verse already cited, on must ignore the action verb, REPENT.  The Apostle makes it abundantly clear we will not see the Kingdom of God apart from making a deliberate decision to turn away from, or repent of our sins.



I for one agree with you concerning Acts 2:38.  There are two commands in the verse, and one blessing.

Acts 2:38 . "Then Peter said unto them, repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." 

Not just one command.  Two.


----------



## Ronnie T (Sep 21, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Maybe you and I are on a similar page?  Could there be a path outside what is given?  By saying there is not is limiting, isn't it?



I honestly cannot know God's mind, will, and intent.
Twenty five years ago I would have given you an answer and would have puffed out my chest as I gave it.


----------



## Ronnie T (Sep 21, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> You and my wife are very similar in y'alls faith.  I'm not quite "wired" that way, there are times when I wish I was.



Then you'll become an elderly old man who sees life slipping from him and he's become miserable because he can't find the answers he's been searching for.  Your children will be telling the other relatives:  "He changes his mind about what he believe every day.  All he wants to do is argue about the Bible".

I say that because I've know a few.  My wifes grandfather changed his beliefs, and church, a dozen times in the last few years of his life.

If you want God's comfort in life then read it, love it, live it, and be satisfied with it.
Then you'll find joy in God's word.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 21, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Then you'll become an elderly old man who sees life slipping from him and he's become miserable because he can't find the answers he's been searching for.  Your children will be telling the other relatives:  "He changes his mind about what he believe every day.  All he wants to do is argue about the Bible"



I think this forum demonstrates we all enjoy a good biblical debate from time to time :

And, you may be right.  But it's not my time to join the amen choir, yet.  I appreciate your honesty in the response previous to this one.  I can read between the lines, and am pretty sure what your answer would have been 25 yrs ago.  

For me, I feel like I fail when I cannot give an answer.  I know some folks have peace in not knowing, but I don't. I believe the truth is out there.  If Paul was correct, God's character is evident in creation.  Maybe I should pay more attention next time I go hunting.


----------



## leightonr (Sep 21, 2011)

I am no practicing Christian though I am baptized and have bee brought up to be one. Though at this point, I am still going to choose what I am going to believe in.  I mean, baptism is just formality for one to be accepted in a religion.

I actually believe that one should be allowed only to choose when he comes to the right age and thinking. Or what could have been taught when he was young, would in general be put to waste.


----------



## gtparts (Sep 22, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Now it was long ago, when Noah was still building the ark which saved only a small group of eight people"by water", and when God was still waiting patiently, that these spirits refused to believe. That water is a type of the baptism which saves you now, and which is not the washing off of physical dirt but a pledge made to God from a good conscience, throught the resurrection of Jesus Christ....
> 
> 1 Peter 20-22,
> --------------------------------
> Why is it that we ask, plead and preach to people to cleave to the Word and yet make of it in our own houses, in our own closets, as the holes in the sides of Jesus were to Thomas? A place to insert our fingers so we can believe.  Have we so little faith that we cannot make of God's word the sinews and nerves of our hearts?





The Foreigner said:


> Yes but the material point is "who benefited from the baptism?" - Noah and his family. Peter even tells us that - "which saved only a small group of eight people" - precisely - you are right that the flood is a type of baptism - but it was only saving for those in the ark. The rest were destroyed. So you're still left with a problem of non-universal salvation.



With any due apology to Peter ( he was stating the true inspired Word of God), I believe the issue of baptism is not given full explanation by Peter in this passage (most assuredly in older translations). Only a superficial reading and/or a less-than-thorough study of the passage and related passages would result in anyone concluding that the flood was the instrument of salvation, afforded to all. In fact, the Peter passage (1 Peter 3:19-22), if understood correctly contrasts the nature of the flood with that of spiritual baptism,... not water baptism.

Here is the passage as given in two translations:

The Message
<sup class="versenum" id="en-MSG-12850">19-22</sup>He went and  proclaimed God's salvation to earlier generations who ended up in the  prison of judgment because they wouldn't listen. You know, even though  God waited patiently all the days that Noah built his ship, only a few  were saved then, eight to be exact—saved from the water by the water.  The waters of baptism do that for you, not by washing away dirt from  your skin but by presenting you through Jesus' resurrection before God  with a clear conscience. Jesus has the last word on everything and  everyone, from angels to armies. He's standing right alongside God, and  what he says goes.

Clearly, God's mercy is ultimately extended to those whom He counts as righteous. 

New Living Translation
<sup class="versenum" id="en-MSG-en-HCSB-en-NLT-30403">19</sup> So he went and preached to the spirits in prison— <sup class="versenum" id="en-MSG-en-HCSB-en-NLT-30404">20 </sup>those who disobeyed God long ago when God waited patiently while Noah  was building his boat. Only eight people were saved from drowning in  that terrible flood. <sup class="versenum" id="en-MSG-en-HCSB-en-NLT-30405">21</sup> And that water is a picture of baptism, which now saves you, not by removing dirt from your body, but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-MSG-en-HCSB-en-NLT-30406">22</sup>   Now Christ has gone to heaven. He is seated in the place of honor next  to God, and all the angels and authorities and powers accept his  authority.

 
As TF has pointed out, the overarching lesson contained in the Noah/flood account is not baptism, which, in this case, caused the destruction of the wicked. Such imagery exists; it is that entering into the ark is the saving act and provision of God, the "baptism" to which Peter refers. The focal issue of 1 Peter 3:19-22 is salvation through the preeminence of Jesus.

The main point is that those who listen to God, who are obedient to His instruction, who seek after God's righteousness, will be saved. In this true story, it is intended that we see in the ark the provision of God for those who love and worship Him. The ark is a foretelling of the appearance of the incarnate Son of God. Salvation is in no other. Those in the ark were spared. Those in Christ will be, also!


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 22, 2011)

gtparts said:


> With any due apology to Peter ( he was stating the true inspired Word of God), I believe the issue of baptism is not given full explanation by Peter in this passage (most assuredly in older translations). Only a superficial reading and/or a less-than-thorough study of the passage and related passages would result in anyone concluding that the flood was the instrument of salvation, afforded to all. In fact, the Peter passage (1 Peter 3:19-22), if understood correctly contrasts the nature of the flood with that of spiritual baptism,... not water baptism.
> 
> Here is the passage as given in two translations:
> 
> ...



Go ahead sift your minces. What is the good of ocean front property in Arizona? Even the venacular minded know this.
And that a wooden boat or ship is just lumbering until it floats.

This is really neat, I say water yours say wood. The water of life, the tree of life. I'll stick with water. Rather be baptised with it, than with a paddle to the brow.

But hey ....have at it... Peace.

Peter's topic is baptism to those who have already entered into Christ. They are in the arc, but have no clue where its headed and need something..... The arc ain't no boat until it floats.  Without water it is just "bizzare" as some would say.


----------



## Randy (Sep 22, 2011)

Ya'll make this too hard.  Jesus died on the cross for EVERYBODY.  EVERYBODY was give rightousness through His death on that day.  You can however, not accept that rightousness if you so choose.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 22, 2011)

Randy said:


> Ya'll make this too hard.  Jesus died on the cross for EVERYBODY.  EVERYBODY was give rightousness through His death on that day.  You can however, not accept that rightousness if you so choose.



Yep that just about sums it up. But EVERYBODY here rumages through scripture with minds having one foot in the law and another in grace! We undo and muddy just as much as we do and clearup. I think this is where the OP is coming from.

This is the OP:

"There seems to be a couple of things nobody on here agrees on: salvation and predestination. We tend to look at the Bible as if it was written just for us, but there are global implications of our beliefs. 

If you have to be baptized to be saved, does that mean everybody who died after the resurection, but didn't know what baptizing was, is in he11? All of the eskimos, native americans, pacific islanders, people who had no way of knowing they should be baptized.

And, if we are predestined, how did all of these people respond to a call about Jesus, if they had no way of knowing he existed? Did some eskimos who never heard of our God end up in heaven while their family went to he11 because God just picked one of the bunch?

I have had many conversations in the past on this, and it seems a strict interpretation of the Bible would indicate all of the aforementioned folks are in he11. I refuse to believe that, and think Romans gives them an "out," by referencing nature as God's witness. But what does this say about all of our doctrine on salvation? Does God make exceptions? "


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

Randy said:


> Ya'll make this too hard.  Jesus died on the cross for EVERYBODY.  EVERYBODY was give rightousness through His death on that day.  You can however, not accept that rightousness if you so choose.



The question was how do these difficult topics apply to folks who never had a chance?  How does predestination affect eskimos?  How does Baptism affect Pacific Islanders who never heard the gospel?

Wasn't the gospel for Australian aborigines?  Many know nothing of doctrine.  Did they go to he11, or is provision made?

I don't think folks are reading the whole thread.  It is NOT about baptism.  It is how biblical doctrine applies to folks who don't even know the Bible exists.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Yep that just about sums it up. But EVERYBODY here rumages through scripture with minds having one foot in the law and another in grace! We undo and muddy just as much as we do and clearup. I think this is where the OP is coming from.
> 
> This is the OP:
> 
> ...




You are absolutely correct G2.  I think you are one of two who actually read what I asked.  It was intended to direct the thoughts towards how complicated things get made to be, when God is a God of love and grace.


----------



## Randy (Sep 22, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I don't think folks are reading the whole thread.  It is NOT about baptism.  It is how biblical doctrine applies to folks who don't even know the Bible exists.



Which is exactly why I made my post.  Everybody is saved from the moment Jesus died on the cross.  Unless they reject Him.  So all those natives that never heard of Him are saved because they never rejected Him.  The same goes for unborn babies which was my question to God and how God came about revealing this to me.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

Randy said:


> Which is exactly why I made my post.  Everybody is saved from the moment Jesus died on the cross.  Unless they reject Him.  So all those natives that never heard of Him are saved because they never rejected Him.  The same goes for unborn babies which was my question to God and how God came about revealing this to me.



Thats what I was looking for, a theory about what happens when doctrine can't be applied.  Good thoughts! Thanks Randy.  I had never thought in that direction before.


----------



## Randy (Sep 22, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Thats what I was looking for, a theory about what happens when doctrine can't be applied.  Good thoughts! Thanks Randy.  I had never thought in that direction before.



It is not a theory,BTW.  It is my opinion that man wants you to believe that they have to tell you about God so you can be saved.  We like to be in control like that.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2011)

> Which is exactly why I made my post. Everybody is saved from the moment Jesus died on the cross. Unless they reject Him. So all those natives that never heard of Him are saved because they never rejected Him. The same goes for unborn babies which was my question to God and how God came about revealing this to me.



Randy....with all due respect man, that just doesn't make any sense.

If that were the case, then the saved should quite literally do everything in our power to make sure that not a single person on earth who hasn't already heard.....never hears the gospel.  Otherwise, we put the burden on ourselves of giving them the opportunity to reject the salvation they already have.

That just doesn't pass the smell test at all.  If they are saved because they don't know....then why in the WORLD would we ever tell them?  100% of those who haven't heard are already saved because they haven't heard.  Why would we give them the opportunity to reject?

Christ commanded us to go tell them in Matthew.  What you posted flies in the face of that.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

Randy said:


> It is not a theory,BTW.



I think you know what I was getting at.  A hypothesis?  A good thought?  An "if-then" proposition?  Unless you are claiming a fact.......either way, I do appreciate it, you got me to thinking......


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

HF, is your position that all the aborigines who never heard are in he11.  If yes, do you limit God?  If no, what does that say about all the complicated doctrine (predes & baptism) relevant to salvation?


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 22, 2011)

Randy said:


> It is not a theory,BTW.  It is my opinion that man wants you to believe that they have to tell you about God so you can be saved.  We like to be in control like that.



Yes. Yes. And your opinion is from scripture.

And since the legal presedence required part of my heart might ask, "What is your biblical evidence for your opinion?"

It is from this scriptural inspiration:

"Everybody is saved from the moment Jesus died on the cross. Unless they reject Him." you say and you are correct.

Now what are the many places in scripture a believer or a lawyer might find this?


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

G2, I originally asked that also, then edited it out.  I was worried it would turn into a "my scripture is bigger than your scripture" debate.  I'm glad you did ask.  Hopefully everybody can be respectful.

What he accomplished is he added a new angle to explore, much like the flood being a baptism.  We can't all be correct, but I can continue to learn from all of you.....even HF.....


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2011)

You quoted my position few posts ago...



> One thing, in regard to this thread, that I am 100% confident of is this. Yes, there will be people in He|| who never heard the name of Jesus and never heard the gospel. I would imagine you would say they were never given the opportunity to be saved (which seems unfair to some).
> 
> When he gave the Great Commission, Jesus essentially said that he had the authority to give his message to all people himself (i.e....they will all know). But then he went on to say essentially "but I choose you to spread my message...go do it".
> 
> It doesn't need spreading if nature reveals the gospel. In my reading, nature does not reveal the gospel...it reveals God. We, disciples, are charged with spreading the gospel message to all people. If they do not hear it and end up suffering for eternity, it is for one reason....we failed.



There are really only two options.  Ethier God saves all via something similar to what Randy posted or yes, some will not be in heaven simply because they never heard.  I don't see how there can be an in between.  Can you?


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> There are really only two options.  Ethier God saves all via something similar to what Randy posted or yes, some will not be in heaven simply because they never heard.  I don't see how there can be an in between.  Can you?



I honestly don't know.  I see inconsistencies in both positions.  I think you limit God's abilities and grace, and he elliminates the need for the great commission.  The truth is, God changed his mind in the OT on occasion.  Who's to say the grace and compassion he showed Ninevah doesn't also apply to eskimos?

That's why I started the thread.  I am genuinely curious in this area.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2011)

> If yes, do you limit God?



No...I do not limit God.  It would seem, though, that he limited himself (if that's how you choose to see it).

Could he have saved all?  Absolutely he could have.  

I struggled for a long time with how my concept of a loving God could decide not to saved some of his creation.  I've come to the point in my walk where I believe the Bible is truth and is the Word of God.  So I must match what I believe with what it says.  

I've had to come to grips with a few things over the past few years that were just simply un-biblical in my thoughts.  This is one of them.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2011)

> I think you limit God's abilities and grace




As I just posted....I'm not limiting God.  If there are some who are not saved, it is not me who made the decision.

He is all-powerful.  He could have chosen to save all of humanity a long time ago without our participation in any capacity.  But that is not what he has chosen to do....and he is wise and good...and his ways are higher than ours.

I suppose, my question for you is why do you seem to seek the opinions of man moreso than just read and believe what is in scripture?  I know you keep coming back to "well everybody's interpretation is different".  Fine.  But read it...what do YOU get from the text and the evidence that is there? 

You have me pegged to a degree.  I am very black and white.  You and I do not agree that there are 1000 different ways to interpret scripture.  But at least we agree that it is authoritative, right?  If it is, then what does it say on this issue in your opinion?


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Randy....with all due respect man, that just doesn't make any sense.
> 
> If that were the case, then the saved should quite literally do everything in our power to make sure that not a single person on earth who hasn't already heard.....never hears the gospel.  Otherwise, we put the burden on ourselves of giving them the opportunity to reject the salvation they already have.
> 
> ...



I am not going to answer for Randy. But can I add this to your questions on his statement.

I understand Randy's opinion not as a blanket statement, but rather as a precise observation.

Many believe from the notion of the Great Commission that no man can be saved if the Gospel is not proclaimed--and that it must therefore come from by nessesity from christianity. Now does this belief blind us that God might save other than through our communion?

Randy has an opinion--- that yes. And that opinion is garnered from scripture.

-------------------------------------------------------------
Acts 10:34-35 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

HF, yes, it is authority.  It demonstrates that God changes his mind on condemnation for grace' sake in a few places.  Does that apply continually, or did it end?  If so, where is that stated?


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2011)

> Many believe from the notion of the Great Commission that no man can be saved if the Gospel is not proclaimed--and that it must therefore come from by nessesity from christianity. Now does this belief blind us that God might save other than through our communion?
> 
> Randy has an opinion--- that yes. And that opinion is garnered from scripture.



Can God save in any manner he sees fit?  Absolutely he can.  

Jesus told the disciples that in the Great Commission...

_And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me._


Then, after establishing that he can do this any way he wants....he says this...


_Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”  
(Matthew 28:18-20 ESV)_

Gordo, God does not save through us...he saves through the power of his name and in the death and resurrection of his son.  He has sent us to spread the word.  But we don't save anybody.

Is that what you're getting at?


----------



## thedeacon (Sep 22, 2011)

The bible clearly says that if we love God we will keep his commandments. 

I don't think anyone here will say we can be a Christian without loving God.

However we don't keep God's commandment's because of fear of hades or a bad life we keep them out of love, in other words because we have a deep passionant desire to please God.
God is not slack concerning his commandments, we should never forget that.

I think sometimes we are so afraid of hurting someones feelings or not fitting in with the crowd that we fail to speak up about what we know the bible truely says.

God has the option of saving anyone he wants to. He is God. Will he save someone that is seemingly out or the relm of salvation, I think he probably will, in fact I think on the day of judgement we are going to be surprised who is in the line before the great gate.
That being said we can't depend on that, we have to read the bible, pray for the Holy Spirit to direct us in the right direction and live a life of love for our God.

We tend to take salvation to lightly, everyone is not going to be saved, God said that not me.

Few there be that enter in.

As far as the flood being the source of baptism for everyone is probably the most rediculas and unfounded statement I have ever heard and the verses in 1st Peter 3 do not even start to emply such and that is as close as I can come to finding anything close.

BUT!!! That is just my opinion anyone else is free to have their own.

God bless


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

thedeacon said:


> As far as the flood being the source of baptism for everyone is probably the most rediculas and unfounded statement I have ever heard and the verses in 1st Peter 3 do not even start to emply such and that is as close as I can come to finding anything close.



I appreciated all of your comments except this one.  I believe G2 is sincere.  You may not agree, but he has articulated his reasoning.  There are many unbelievers who would call our entire faith ridulous and unfounded.

But, your thoughts on God saving whomever he wants are interesting, and I think I lean in that direction.  Which is to say I believe folks who never had the opportunity to reject the gospel may get a different treatment than those who have.  But, I started this thread because I honestly do not know.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

HF, I didn't answer one of your questions about seeking man's opinion more than scripture.  I don't.  I read as much as I can, when I can.  I also believe a healthy discussion with believers strengthens, or elliminates, beliefs based on what I read.

I know you think some folks who never heard the gospel are in he11.  Do you believe _all_ folks who never heard the gospel  are in he11?  That is the question.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2011)

> Do you believe all folks who never heard the gospel are in he11? That is the question.



If some then, by necessity, all....yes.  He wouldn't have sent us out with the message if it didn't need to be sent.

Does someone have to physically sit down and walk each person in the world down the Romans "road"?  I don't know.  But I do know that they have to know the name of Jesus.  For no man comes to the Father, but through him.  

I suppose my response to, "that's not fair" is, "Go do something about it!"  That's what Jesus commanded.  If we don't like the fact (possibility) that some will die not knowing...then go do something about it.  It's very easy to lament people who've never heard going to He|| while sitting at a desk in the United States.  My view doesn't limit God.  It reveals our burden and failure to do what he commanded.  He told us to go tell everybody....all the world.  If they don't know, it's our fault.  He intended that they all know.  We haven't told them.

Just to put what I'm saying in perspective.  There are roughly 4.5 billion people on the planet that don't believe and there are 1.5 billion (I think that's right) who have never heard the name of Jesus.  Yes...according to what I believe, those 1.5 billion will go to He|| if we sit on the sidelines and do nothing.  It adds a greater sense of urgency to the Great Commission....doesn't it?

JB, may I add to your reading list?  Radical, by David Platt.  Put it near the top.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Can God save in any manner he sees fit?  Absolutely he can.
> 
> Jesus told the disciples that in the Great Commission...
> 
> ...



---------------------

Acts 10:34-35 "Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." 

Randy states that some individuals are unable to say yes or no. I say to you that some "peoples" are unable to say yes or no.

And not only that but Christ ministers to all mankind without christians. I pointed out that he ministered to Paul  one on one when Paul was not a christian. If He did it to Paul who did not know the "cross" yet, then Christ can minister to peoples outside our communion and our commissions.

Brother I am always trying to stay in the box, but for some reason as soon as I am at peace in it, those that gave me the box come by and change its shape.


----------



## Bama4me (Sep 22, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> I don't what to go on and on and on with this. This is what Peter says,
> 
> That water is a type of the baptism which saves you now...
> 
> It not only permitted salvation to the eight of the New Beginning, but also everyone "now"...now in the sense that Peter means it.



The word "type" in the original Greek means "a thing resembling another" or "a thing formed after a pattern" (Strong's lexicon).  The point of the passage is that just as through water, Noah and his family were saved from destruction, people today are saved in the waters of baptism.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2011)

> I say to you that some "peoples" are unable to say yes or no.



Only because they have not heard.  Does the hearing somehow change their stature with God?  If you believe this, then you have to address my assertion that we should, then, do everything in our power to make sure they never hear.  Otherwise we expose them to the possibility they may reject.  It's illogical and unbiblical.  Jesus' instructions (were this true) should have been "Shut yo mouth!  Don't tell anybody!".



> And not only that but Christ ministers to all mankind without christians. I pointed out that he ministered to Paul one on one when Paul was not a christian. If He did it to Paul who did not know the "cross" yet, then Christ can minister to peoples outside our communion and our commissions.



Can....and will...are different Gordo.  God ministered to Paul prior to his "salvation".  You are correct.  But he did not somehow, save him in that moment.  He called him to a specific purpose at that time.  Paul believed in Jesus and the power of the death and resurrection.  That is what saved him...not his experience on the road to Damascus.  He received the HS and was baptized when he heard what Ananias had to say.  

Many people, to this day, have similar experiences (sans the bright light and the audible voice)....myself included.  I've shared this before.  God came after me after many years of pretending to follow him.  He'd "had enough" and he came after me with a vengence.  It was painful...but I was not a follower of Christ.  I know that now.  It did not feel like love at the time.  But, indeed, I know now that he ministered to me when I was outside his will.  Does he not do that for all?  God ministers to us.  But he chose believers to spread the message of the gospel which leads to salvation.  

The Gentile is now eligible for adoption along with the Jew.  Jesus sent the disciples out with adoption "papers" in hand and told them to go tell all.  

After the resurrection.  After the Great Commission...can you show me a single instance of God directly ministering to a person and salvation occurring without someone telling them the gospel message?


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> But I do know that they have to know the name of Jesus.  For no man comes to the Father, but through him. .



...and they will know his name. Is  that to say the decision always on this side of things? 



Huntinfool said:


> I suppose my response to, "that's not fair" is, "Go do something about it!"  That's what Jesus commanded.  .



Refer to previous comments in a previous debate where I asked about your co-workers.  But, the great commission also commands to teaches Jesus' commands.  This is inclusive of "love thy neighbor, feed the poor, do unto others."

Again, if God changed his mind for Ninevah, why won't he do so for the eskimos?



Huntinfool said:


> JB, may I add to your reading list?  Radical, by David Platt.  Put it near the top.



Keep that in mind. Some time around mid-December I am going to start a reading list thread for folks to add to for me.  I am having trouble keeping up.  I am looking forward to reading recreationally again.  It's been several years.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> If He did it to Paul who did not know the "cross" yet, then Christ can minister to peoples outside our communion and our commissions.



I saw where you posted this earlier also.  I had never considered this.  And it lines up with not limiting God's grace, which also lines up with scripture (Jonah, anyone).


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

Bama4me said:


> People today are saved in the waters of baptism.



Okay, and this is a doctrine I was curious about, along with predestination, specifically how it applies to those who never heard about it.  Do your beliefs lead you to believe all of the people who never knew they had to be baptized are in he11?


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Can....and will...are different Gordo.



According to you, the possibilities of "can" are endless, but the possibilities of "will" are not.


----------



## Ronnie T (Sep 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Randy....with all due respect man, that just doesn't make any sense.
> 
> If that were the case, then the saved should quite literally do everything in our power to make sure that not a single person on earth who hasn't already heard.....never hears the gospel.  Otherwise, we put the burden on ourselves of giving them the opportunity to reject the salvation they already have.
> 
> ...



Very good point.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2011)

> According to you, the possibilities of "can" are endless, but the possibilities of "will" are not.



Not sure I understand.  He CAN do anything he chooses.  But he will not do everything that he can do.  So....he must choose to not do some things that he can do.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2011)

> I saw where you posted this earlier also. I had never considered this. And it lines up with not limiting God's grace, which also lines up with scripture (Jonah, anyone).



Read my post above.  God did not save Paul on that road.  He called him.  He saved Paul when Ananias ministered to him in his home and baptized him into the HS.  At the point of salvation....Paul knew the cross.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Not sure I understand.  He CAN do anything he chooses.  But he will not do everything that he can do.  So....he must choose to not do some things that he can do.



But can do some of the things you say he won't do, and, if Ninevah is an example, often, he will.  Because he is a God of grace and compassion (Jonah 4:2). It doesn't have to be literal to have a message.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2011)

> Again, if God changed his mind for Ninevah, why won't he do so for the eskimos?



Because he established a new covenant in the NT that we are told will remain in place until he returns.  That's why.  He's given us instructions that are in place until he returns.  They are in the words of the NT, not in philosopy about what he can and cannot do.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Read my post above.  God did not save Paul on that road.  He called him.  He saved Paul when Ananias ministered to him in his home and baptized him into the HS.  At the point of salvation....Paul knew the cross.



My thoughts were in reference to Jesus working outside of our communion.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2011)

> But can do some of the things you say he won't do...



He can do all of the things I've said he won't do.  See my post above as to why he won't do them.  It's not because I've limited him or his actions.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2011)

> My thoughts were in reference to Jesus working outside of our communion.



Go read Matthew 28:16-20 and tell me how it lines up with your statement above.

"I can do this any way I want....now YOU go tell them."

He can.....but he won't according to scripture.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Because he established a new covenant in the NT that we are told will remain in place until he returns.  That's why.




Where does it say God's grace and compassion does not extend to everybody?  Where does it say God will quit changing his mind on condemnation because he has grace and compassion?


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> He can.....but he won't according to scripture.



Where does it say he won't?


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2011)

Matthew 28:16-20

you are adding..."but if you don't....I will do it".  It's not there.  He told us how the message would be spread and it is confirmed in the rest of the NT.  

There is not a single instance of Jesus directly bringing someone to salvation outside of the influence of another human that I can think of.  If you know of one, I'm open to hear it.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Matthew 28:16-20
> 
> you are adding..."but if you don't....I will do it".  It's not there.  He told us how the message would be spread and it is confirmed in the rest of the NT.
> 
> There is not a single instance of Jesus directly bringing someone to salvation outside of the influence of another human that I can think of.  If you know of one, I'm open to hear it.



Theif on the cross.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Matthew 28:16-20.



This does absoltuely nothing for your point.  It just says go and teach.  It does not say anything about God's intentions for the rest of the age.



Huntinfool said:


> you are adding..."but if you don't....I will do it".  It's not there.



You are adding "if you don't, I won't either."  It's not there.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2011)

After the ressurection and the Great Commission JB....stay with me.

Jesus was alive on earth with the thief.  He was dead and resurrected and attonement was complete when he sent the disciples out.  He ascended to heaven and did not directly save another person from that point that I'm aware of.  

He called Saul.  But is there anyone that believed in Jesus for salvation after the resurrection without being told?


----------



## Bama4me (Sep 22, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I honestly don't know.  I see inconsistencies in both positions.  I think you limit God's abilities and grace, and he elliminates the need for the great commission.  The truth is, God changed his mind in the OT on occasion.  Who's to say the grace and compassion he showed Ninevah doesn't also apply to eskimos?
> 
> That's why I started the thread.  I am genuinely curious in this area.



In response to your questions, notice several things Christ stated:

*  "I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)
*  "Unless one is born of the water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
*  "If you abide in My word, you are truly My disciples." (John 8:31)
*  "The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day." (John 12:48)

Also, notice other passages in the New Testament:

*  "There is salvation in no one else" (except Christ; Acts 4:12)
*  "In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus." (2 Thessalonians 1:8)

Putting those passages together, we can realize:
(1)  Without going through Christ, we cannot reach God.
(2)  We must be "born again" of the water/spirit in order to enter the church/heaven (kingdom)
(3)  Following Christ's word makes us faithful disciples.
(4)  If we fail to obey Christ's word (the gospel), we will be suffer eternal condemnation on the Day of Judgment.

Not me, but the Bible doing the speaking.  Regardless of how I want to feel/think about God's making an exception, Scripture does not open a door for allow me to do so.  To go beyond what He has said means (1) I'm the one expanding God's grace where He has not done so and (2) His word does not apply to every person... neither of which can be done with permission of His word.  

The best I can say is, "each person is in the hands of an infallible, merciful, and just God" and leave it at that.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2011)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Huntinfool
> Matthew 28:16-20.
> 
> ...



JB, I'm sorry.  I'm going to have to be done with you in this thread.  You're going into your "you're rubber and I'm glue" mode.  There is nothing more I can say.

I've shown you why I believe my position is correct and biblical.  

I'll see you in another thread and we'll start again.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2011)

Bama....that was a very good post my man.  It's rock solid, supported by scripture and there is almost no legitimate room to argue it.


I'll just keep reading from here.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

Bama, I appreciate your points, and agree with the overall thinking.  Where I get stuck is this:  does through Jesus have to be on this side of life?  God forgave us for Christ's sake, not ours.  Does that forgiveness also extend beyond the human expansion of the gospel?  

Can a infallible, merciful, and just God extend his mercy beyond the known parameters?


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

The same argument applies in both directions, rubber and glue or not.

And, you walked right into it..........



Huntinfool said:


> I've shown you why I believe my position is correct and biblical.



.....that is your interpretaion


----------



## Bama4me (Sep 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> He called Saul.  But is there anyone that believed in Jesus for salvation after the resurrection without being told?



Two passages completely support what you assert here.  First, Romans 10:11-17 (role of "proclaiming" in spreading the message) and 1 Corinthians 1:18-21 (people are saved through the proclamation of a message).  Acts 8:31 gives us a perfect example... the Ethipian treasurer asked Philip "how can I (understand what I read) unless someone guides me?"

God's plan for people to be saved involves believers who are willing to "go proclaim".  Also, remember that in the 1st Century, there weren't any New Testament's on the shelves of local bookstores.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

Bama4me said:


> God's plan for people to be saved involves believers who are willing to "go proclaim".  Also, remember that in the 1st Century, there weren't any New Testament's on the shelves of local bookstores.



So was there ever a plan for those folks who lived on islands far away yet to be discovered?  I think....yes.


----------



## Bama4me (Sep 22, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Bama, I appreciate your points, and agree with the overall thinking.  Where I get stuck is this:  does through Jesus have to be on this side of life?  God forgave us for Christ's sake, not ours.  Does that forgiveness also extend beyond the human expansion of the gospel?
> 
> Can a infallible, merciful, and just God extend his mercy beyond the known parameters?



Not sure I'm following you on "this side of life" and "God forgave us for Christ's sake".  Especially the last idea is something I'm not sure we can find in the NT.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

Bama4me said:


> Not sure I'm following you on "this side of life" and "God forgave us for Christ's sake".  Especially the last idea is something I'm not sure we can find in the NT.



Ephesians 4:32.  I think this means that our forgiveness is for Christ's sake, for his sacrifice, not ours.

This side of life: maybe a post-mortem option.  I think I read that Jesus went and preached somewhere during his 3-day intermission.  I am not sure where I heard it.  It was just a thought I am thinking through.


----------



## Bama4me (Sep 22, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> So was there ever a plan for those folks who lived on islands far away yet to be discovered?  I think....yes.



Not that I can find supported by the Bible... God's plan is a universal plan.  The Scriptures cited in my earlier post leave no room for another plan.  

One thing I think would help you in this discussion is to realize God provides opportunities to people w/o us having knowledge of those opportunities.  In our minds, we say "people of X lands have never heard the gospel".  However, we don't know how God has worked in times past to offer them opportunities to come into contact w/ the saving message of Christ.  We are finite in our ability to know these things... but we do know what God's word says.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Only because they have not heard.  Does the hearing somehow change their stature with God?  If you believe this, then you have to address my assertion that we should, then, do everything in our power to make sure they never hear.  Otherwise we expose them to the possibility they may reject.  It's illogical and unbiblical.  Jesus' instructions (were this true) should have been "Shut yo mouth!  Don't tell anybody!".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You mean the gospel messages. Yes I can. Ask yourself what are the gospel messages, not limited to just one, and do you know people who live up to some of them outside our communion. Is a person that does justice in Japan,  less rightious than the man who, but for sin, can only dream of it in Tennesse? 

Anyway I'm out of this tread.... Peace bros.


----------



## Bama4me (Sep 22, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Ephesians 4:32.  I think this means that our forgiveness is for Christ's sake, for his sacrifice, not ours.
> 
> This side of life: maybe a post-mortem option.  I think I read that Jesus went and preached somewhere during his 3-day intermission.  I am not sure where I heard it.  It was just a thought I am thinking through.



Ephesians 4:32 is simply encouraging us to forgive one another as God has forgiven us through Christ.  Do not see anything else other than "God forgives us through (or by) Christ."

1 Peter 3:19, we're told that Christ "proclaimed" to the spirits in prison (assume that's the torment portion of Hades).  The word interpreted "proclaimed" is a word that simply means "to proclaim openly".  In the verse, there's no hint of "what was proclaimed" nor if people could respond to whatever was proclaimed.  

If we believe Hebrews 9:27 and Luke 16:19-31, there's no way for people to be saved once they leave this world.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> You mean the gospel messages. Yes I can. Ask yourself what are the gospel messages, not limited to just one, and do you know people who live up to some of them outside our communion. Is a person that does justice in Japan,  less rightious than the man who, but for sin, can only dream of it in Tennesse?
> 
> Anyway I'm out of this tread.... Peace bros.



Thanks for your thoughts G2.  I agree that the gospel encompasses so much more than one message.  Love one another.  Do unto others.  Feed the poor.  Grace, redemption, mercy.  There was so much more to be spread than "accept Jesus."  I think the message of the gospel, grace, was reason enough to tell the good news, not that that limits the reasons.

Sorry you are bailing on the thread, I might be the last one here who doesn't think all the eskimos are condemned (joking with everybody).


----------



## Bama4me (Sep 22, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Thanks for your thoughts G2.  I agree that the gospel encompasses so much more than one message.  Love one another.  Do unto others.  Feed the poor.  Grace, redemption, mercy.  There was so much more to be spread than "accept Jesus."  I think the message of the gospel, grace, was reason enough to tell the good news, not that that limits the reasons.
> 
> Sorry you are bailing on the thread, I might be the last one here who doesn't think all the eskimos are condemned (joking with everybody).



JB... last post for the day (gotta go).  "The gospel" is the entirety of what Jesus taught/did... and is probably best summed up in Matthew 28:18-20.  "All things that I have commanded you" would include all of things you list in your post above.  Sometimes, the word is used in a more narrow way in the NT though... like Acts 15:7.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

I appreciate your engaging in this conversation, so please do not think I am trying to frustrate things (I think I frustrated HF).   A hint of bias, sure, but it is towards grace.



Bama4me said:


> Ephesians 4:32 is simply encouraging us to forgive one another as God has forgiven us through Christ.  Do not see anything else other than "God forgives us through (or by) Christ.".



The KJV translates it as:

 "And be ye kind one to another , tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." 

I am not one to hang my hat on any translation, but that is where I got the thought from.



Bama4me said:


> 1 Peter 3:19, we're told that Christ "proclaimed" to the spirits in prison (assume that's the torment portion of Hades).  The word interpreted "proclaimed" is a word that simply means "to proclaim openly".  In the verse, there's no hint of "what was proclaimed" nor if people could respond to whatever was proclaimed.




I knew I read it somewhere.  But, could there have been a purpose to the proclamation?  That is where I am going with this thought.



Bama4me said:


> If we believe Hebrews 9:27 and Luke 16:19-31, there's no way for people to be saved once they leave this world.



But, does the judgement of 9:27 have to mean condemnation?  And I follow you on Luke, but again, the rich man was already sentenced.

I  understand what I am asking is not the traditional line of thinking.  I guess I am looking for an answer to a question which I know has driven many away from the concept of God because the condemnation of folks for just being born does not "square" with the grace, mercy, compassion, and justice described.  It also limits Jesus' sacrifice to the fortunate few.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

Bama4me said:


> JB... last post for the day (gotta go).  "The gospel" is the entirety of what Jesus taught/did... and is probably best summed up in Matthew 28:18-20.  "All things that I have commanded you" would include all of things you list in your post above.  Sometimes, the word is used in a more narrow way in the NT though... like Acts 15:7.



Good deal.  Thanks for your contributions.  It is appreciated.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 22, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Thanks for your thoughts G2.  I agree that the gospel encompasses so much more than one message.  Love one another.  Do unto others.  Feed the poor.  Grace, redemption, mercy.  There was so much more to be spread than "accept Jesus."  I think the message of the gospel, grace, was reason enough to tell the good news, not that that limits the reasons.
> 
> Sorry you are bailing on the thread, I might be the last one here who doesn't think all the eskimos are condemned (joking with everybody).



I had to come back....forgot my keys.

Anyway....did you ever think to look at the spiritual fruits of a people as a gauge to salvation in the sense of their" being in the way" or  being grafted to God's people? You shall know them by their fruits sort of thing?

The mighty in Christ, at home, sometimes tolerate a little bit of sin as a cure for lots of sin. Something they would never tolerate of "esquimos" and would call it correctly as sorcery. This would make the  lowly esquimos the ideal in Christ. ( Not joking.)


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2011)

> Anyway....did you ever think to look at the spiritual fruits of a people as a gauge to salvation in the sense of their" being in the way" or being grafted to God's people? You shall know them by their fruits sort of thing?



Not to nit-pick (I also forgot my keys)...The fruit of the spirit is one, not many.  Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control...they are one fruit.  We do not exhibit one and not the others if we are in the Spirit.

I know lots of people who are kind...and not saved.  I know lots of people who love...and are not saved.

Gal 5 pits the works (note multiple) of the flesh against the fruit (note singular) of the spirit.

The fruit of the spirit is an indicator of salvation....but it does not save.  Those "who belong to Christ Jesus" exhibit the fruit.  Who belongs to Christ Jesus?  The Bible tells us:



> * "I am the way, the truth, and the life. NO ONE comes to the Father except through Me." (John 14:6)
> * "Unless one is born of the water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."
> * "If you abide in My word, you are truly My disciples." (John 8:31)
> * "The word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day." (John 12:48)
> ...



The fruit is an indicator...but only in it's entirety.  If they exhibit some of the fruit (or all for that matter) and don't claim Christ, they are not saved!

Bottom line, regardless of the characteristics you exhibit, if you do not know the name of Jesus and that he died and was risen....you are not saved according to the Bible.  Those who are "grafted" are only so because of their faith in Christ, not their exhibition of any of these traits.

If God chooses to send flaming tablets to the eskimos that tell them that message, then sure....they can be saved outside of humans carrying the message.  I'll give you that if you want me to concede it.  He won't.....but he could if he chose to.

I still haven't gotten an answer to whether Jesus has directly intervened to save someone outside of human carry of the gospel since he ascended.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> did you ever think to look at the spiritual fruits of a people as a gauge to salvation in the sense of their" being in the way" or  being grafted to God's people? You shall know them by their fruits sort of thing?



You know, I honestly had not.  Very interesting thought. On one hand, that might be considered a "works" based salvation, but if they are "grafted," as you put it, then the gifts are not works, they are the fruit of the spirit, and salvation is a gift (which is God's to give as he chooses).  I wonder if that explains witnessing "fruit" in people who have never heard.  I also liked your thoughts on the "lowly" eskimo.  I brought them into the discussion because I wanted to take the conversation as far away from familiar as possible.  We tend to think the Bible was only written for us.  But, we are no better than he is, and no more worthy.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> The fruit is an indicator...but only in it's entirety.  If they exhibit some of the fruit (or all for that matter) and don't claim Christ, they are not saved!



...and if they claim Christ, but exhibit none? That is descriptive of the majority of Christians I grew up around.



Huntinfool said:


> Bottom line, regardless of the characteristics you exhibit, if you do not know the name of Jesus and that he died and was risen....you are not saved according to the Bible.



This is very easy for you to say.  Now, imagine you are an eskimo, and some dude pulls up on a snowmobile and tells you the parents you just buried went to he11 because he did not get there quick enough.......would you buy into the God of grace and love?

I think you are inside the box, and there is a chance something exists on the outside.



Huntinfool said:


> I'll give you that if you want me to concede it.  He won't.....but he could if he chose to..



I find it interesting that folks who believe they are saved are so callous with the condemnation of others.  If I believed like you did, I would be devasted.  




Huntinfool said:


> I still haven't gotten an answer to whether Jesus has directly intervened to save someone outside of human carry of the gospel since he ascended.



I've known folks who claimed to be called "out of the blue."  Its not in the Bible.  But Jesus did go straight to Paul, and "set the table," in a way.

How does that justify your position, or change the debate?  

Glad you're back, HF.  I appreciate your contributions as well.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 22, 2011)

> ...and if they claim Christ, but exhibit none? That is descriptive of the majority of Christians I grew up around.



Well....I'm sure you know where I stand.




> I find it interesting that folks who believe they are saved are so callous with the condemnation of others. If I believed like you did, I would be devasted.



Don't mistake me.  I am devasted by the fact that 1.5 billion people on this earth have never heard his name and will go to He||.  Go read Mr. Platt's book.

The fact that I'm devasted by it does not change it.  Riding up there on a snowmobile does.  If someone dies before I get there, that is the fault of generations before me and it's devastating.



> I've known folks who claimed to be called "out of the blue." Its not in the Bible. But Jesus did go straight to Paul, and "set the table," in a way.



Called....saved.  Two very different concepts.  Have you ever known anyone who was radically saved...without hearing the name of Jesus or the gospel message that he died and rose?



> I think you are inside the box, and there is a chance something exists on the outside.



You posted this in response to my comment "according to the Bible".  Where does "something else exist outside the box"?  

You insist that grace and condemnation are mutually exclusive.  There are a few things that God cannot do actually.  One of them is tolerate sin.  He is holy and perfect and cannot tolerate the presence of sin.  He desires that all be saved.  So he lovingly and graciously and mercifully provided a way for restoration and forgiveness of sin....and then he told us to go tell the world about it.



If they die without hearing the name of Jesus, it is our fault.  We have been commanded to go and tell them.

Now I'm out.  That is "my interpretation".


----------



## The Foreigner (Sep 22, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Bama, I appreciate your points, and agree with the overall thinking.  Where I get stuck is this:  does through Jesus have to be on this side of life?  God forgave us for Christ's sake, not ours.  Does that forgiveness also extend beyond the human expansion of the gospel?
> 
> Can a infallible, merciful, and just God extend his mercy beyond the known parameters?



You are speculating - and your ephesians passage does your position no good at all.  Christ tells us the time is now - not after death, or judgment or whenever. Christ's words:

The Rich man and Lazarus (Lk 16)- Lazarus poor and neglected enters heaven with Abraham et al. The rich man, who has all in this life, enters Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----. He begs to go back to warn his brothers before it is too late for them, and they suffer in like manner as him. The text says he was in torment in Hades and begs for mercy and that Abraham would "send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame." Abraham reminds him he had all that he wanted in life, but now was in anguish.

After begging to return to warn his brothers (for they would believe if someone from the dead came back to warn them), Abraham tells him "If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead."

A parable: as discussed before it didn't really happen. But the point is clear: now is the time to repent and believe, before it is too late. There is no salvation outside Christ, outside time, after death or judgment. This parable clearly tells us such. 

Not all are saved. God is under no obligation to man at all. Man has rebelled. Grace is active in saving whom God desires, irrespective of whether man has heard or not. God creates and destroys as he chooses, because He is simply God. 

Peace.


----------



## M80 (Sep 22, 2011)

My Thoughts, The bible says our very hairs are numbered.  God knows what we will do before we do it.  Predestination, our life is like a book to him.  He has read our book, he knows the exact time we will get saved our not.  He already seen our decision whether we accepted him or rejected him, like a book, if we read a book we know what the people did in the book, but he gave us the decision,  

The bible says The Lord is not slack as some men count slackness, but is long suffering to usward, not willing any should perish, but all come to repentance.  The question about the eskimos, what if god was calling someone to the mission field and they didn't go, wouldn't those peoples blood be upon the man that didn't go.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Called....saved.  Two very different concepts.  Have you ever known anyone who was radically saved...without hearing the name of Jesus or the gospel message that he died and rose?



No.  I have not.



Huntinfool said:


> You posted this in response to my comment "according to the Bible".  Where does "something else exist outside the box"?



I'm not sure, that's why I started the thread, and stated repeatedly that I am not sure.  I have gotten great feedback from all of you.  



Huntinfool said:


> You insist that grace and condemnation are mutually exclusive.



Not really.  Just that many people died in far fetched places the day after the great commission was given.  Who's hands is their blood on? Or is God's grace enough to provide a way? I am thinking through it.




Huntinfool said:


> Now I'm out.  That is "my interpretation".



Yep.  And we all got one.   But I have really appreciated your thoughts.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 22, 2011)

The Foreigner said:


> You are speculating - and your ephesians passage does your position no good at all.



Yes, I am speculating.  I suspect everybody who asks a question speculates to a certain extent.  Do I hope for a particular answer, absolutely.  I think any humane response would be to hope God's grace has provision for the hopeless.  I do not have the answer. 

The Ephesians verse was to point out that the KJV says we are forgiven for Christ's sake, not ours.  It was only to "peek around a corner," and see if anything was there.  Like I said, I am thinking through this.



The Foreigner said:


> Christ tells us the time is now - not after death, or judgment or whenever.



And I agree that the post mortem case is extremely weak.  I only brought it up because Jesus preaching in the after-life puzzles me.  Perhaps there is something there?  I would guess it is worth exploring.



The Foreigner said:


> Not all are saved. God is under no obligation to man at all.



I agreed with this point yesterday. 




The Foreigner said:


> God creates and destroys as he chooses, because He is simply God.



I agree.  And I am a man.  Which gives me a human perspective which causes the questions.  I hope you understand.

Thanks for the feedback.  It is appreciated.


----------



## The Foreigner (Sep 23, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Yes, I am speculating.  I suspect everybody who asks a question speculates to a certain extent.  Do I hope for a particular answer, absolutely.  I think any humane response would be to hope God's grace has provision for the hopeless.  I do not have the answer.
> 
> The Ephesians verse was to point out that the KJV says we are forgiven for Christ's sake, not ours.  It was only to "peek around a corner," and see if anything was there.  Like I said, I am thinking through this.
> 
> ...



Roger that. I understand, and have struggled with the similar questions in my past. I think if you look at it through the lens of Scripture (God's revelation) your problems, at least intellectually will be solved. Nothing short of faith will allow you to accept these truths as truths.
PM on its way.

Peace


----------



## Bama4me (Sep 23, 2011)

The Foreigner said:


> Roger that. I understand, and have struggled with the similar questions in my past. I think if you look at it through the lens of Scripture (God's revelation) your problems, at least intellectually will be solved. Nothing short of faith will allow you to accept these truths as truths.
> PM on its way.
> 
> Peace



Good post... and I think you're spot on with faith being the key to accept the limits of what God's word says.  At times, I wish I could know more than what Scripture provides on certain topics... but if we were to know every detail to every philosophical question about God, we'd no longer be walking by faith... we'd be walking by sight.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 23, 2011)

Bama4me said:


> but if we were to know every detail to every philosophical question about God, we'd no longer be walking by faith... we'd be walking by sight.



Very good point.  It's just so stinking difficult to accept some of the things (yes, I know  and have heard, who am I to challenge or question God).  For me, it's not that one position does not line up with scripture, it just does line up with perception of character which comes from other scripture.....if that makes sense.

A way to sum up my struggle is this: 

God loved us so much, he sent Jesus to die for us.  The implications of that verse are enourmous.  I would not give my child for anybody.  So, God's love must be greater than anything I could imagine.  However, to turn around and let some people, who he loves so much, go to he11 who never even heard or had a chance to hear of the sacrifice.......it just doesn't make sense, it seems contradictory.  We, who believe we are saved, can make these claims easily because it has no bearing on us specifically.  That is the wall I am running into. 

I am not challenging anybody on this.  I have been honestly seeking insight and wisdom, and have gotten it.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 23, 2011)

> it seems contradictory



But it's not JB.  Finish the verse...

...that whosoever believes in him will not perish....

He provided a way because he loves us.  I don't see how it's contradictory.  I suppose I get what you're saying.  If he really loves all, then why didn't he just save all?

I don't know.  That's as honest as I can be.  I don't know.  But, as I read it, he provided a way for all and then told us to go tell people.


----------



## The Foreigner (Sep 23, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Very good point.  It's just so stinking difficult to accept some of the things (yes, I know  and have heard, who am I to challenge or question God).  For me, it's not that one position does not line up with scripture, it just does line up with perception of character which comes from other scripture.....if that makes sense.
> 
> A way to sum up my struggle is this:
> 
> ...



Right - again we come up against the discussion of the word "world" - does he love the whole world (As in every man) - in which case your understanding is correct. If God's love is so great and so powerful (he gave his son after all!) , and is for everyone equally then it stands to reason that all are saved. Otherwise God's love which is all powerful is thwarted. 

Yet he's not loving all equally - and furthermore he is under no obligation to do so. All humanity has rebelled and naturally hates God. He is not obliged to love them, indeed the default response from God is to condemn all. 

The wonder of grace is that he saves any, or some! He simply doesn't love all in a saving way.  

The way we come to God? - he draws us and we accept Christ. Christ says in Jn 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him". Literal translation : "no one has the power / no one is able to come to the Father...". God draws whom he wills and hardens whom he wills (at least that what Paul says in Romans 9:15. 

Peace


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 23, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I don't see how it's contradictory.



Glad your back

What I mean by contradictory is this:

Imagine your son or daughter (Jesus) went off and died in a war to liberate the people of some far fetched country who were about to be slaughtered by their evil leader (sin).  Their demise was eminent (condemnation), but your child died, and rescued them (defeated sin).

Then turn around and send in choppers (great commission)and say "get on board."  However, the choppers can't reach all of the remote villages, and many are left behind.

Once a few have gotten on board, you nuke the place to smithereens, killing all of those folks your child died to save.

I know there are "holes" in that analogy, but the principle is what I am talking about.  It seems like a waste of your child's sacrifice.  That's why I brought Eph 4:32 into the conversation.

I am not really taking sides, though I do have a bias.  I am not saying I am right and you are wrong here.  I just don't know.........


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 23, 2011)

The Foreigner said:


> Yet he's not loving all equally - and furthermore he is under no obligation to do so. All humanity has rebelled and naturally hates God. He is not obliged to love them, indeed the default response from God is to condemn all.



That is the first I had ever heard it proposed in that way. Very interesting.  If that is correct, then the logical problem is solved.  Good thoughts.  Though it would force me to rethink my entire concept of God, which I struggled so hard to accept because I was raised under the OT God of wrath.  It was the NT grace which made me reconsider my opinions of God.

If you are correct, I have a lot of re-thinking to do.....


----------



## mtnwoman (Sep 23, 2011)

I don't think we will ever figure out what God does with the people that have not heard the gospel. I personally believe if they've never heard they've never denied Christ like a young child that would die. But I don't know, not a scripture I can find that even gives me a clue.

But that is why Christ wants us to go into all the world and preach the gospel...and that's why it's hard for me to believe that people are simply preselected while others are in the wrong line before they are even born.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 23, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I...and that's why it's hard for me to believe that people are simply preselected while others are in the wrong line before they are even born.



I'm not a fan of preselection as doctrine either.  But, if it were true, then many who had never heard might be preselected anyway, or they were preselected to never hear.  I think I touched on this earlier when Imentioned the eskimo meeting the God he had never heard of.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 23, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I don't think we will ever figure out what God does with the people that have not heard the gospel. I personally believe if they've never heard they've never denied Christ like a young child that would die. But I don't know, not a scripture I can find that even gives me a clue.
> 
> But that is why Christ wants us to go into all the world and preach the gospel...and that's why it's hard for me to believe that people are simply preselected while others are in the wrong line before they are even born.



I forgot my wallet...so just chiming in. 

A person that does justice from his heart knows the gospel before it is preached to him/her. "Through Christ" is much bigger than "through the church" that would define Him, yet He it is who created and defines her.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 23, 2011)

TF quoted Romans 9:15...

...if you keep reading, Paul expands and clarifies as well.



_You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
(Romans 9:19-24 ESV)_


The Potter does have right over the clay.  You might find "fault" in the "What if" that Paul uses saying that Paul was just giving his opinion of an example.  That's your call there.

But if you believe Paul, then God very clearly does create some "vessels" for destruction.  Why?  In order to make know the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy.

It's a hard pill to swallow.  But he loves the world...all of it.  He's the creator and creation is good.  But he has love to salvation only for the elect.  Ultimately our purpose is not to survive eternally.  Our purpose is to show the glory of God.  I would argue, based on the words of Paul, that we ALL accomplish that task eventually whether we are chosen or not.  The vessels created for destruction were created to show his glory as well.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 23, 2011)

> A person that does justice from his heart knows the gospel before it is preached to him/her. "Through Christ" is much bigger than "through the church" that would define Him, yet He it is who created and defines her.



Again...can you give me an example of someone coming to a saving knowledge of Christ (post-resurrection) without human participation?

What you posted sounds an aweful lot like what I hear in the AAA forum: "Well, I'm a good person.  I treat people well.  I love people.  I don't, generally, do anything bad.  I "do justice".  I think I'll be good in the end."

I'm sure that's not how you're intending that to come off.  But that's what is sounds like to me.  

The fruit is a direct result of the indwelling of the HS.  Jesus does not, to my knowledge, tap people on the shoulder and sit down to have a one-on-one gospel conversation with them at this point.  He tells his disciples to go spread the gospel.  

We can discuss "church" vs "human".  But he instructed disciples (whether in the church or not) to spread the gospel.  I don't know that he works outside of that avenue for that purpose at this point.  I suppose you're saying he does.  I'd just ask for scripture to establish firm ground for the position.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 23, 2011)

I have considered the potter and clay a bunch, and here is where I am at with it:

We are not pots.  I get the analogy Paul is making, and I understand what you are seeing there.  But surely, God, who leves us so much he would have his son killed for us, sees us as more than you or I would see a pot.  So, could there be more than meets the eye with that scripture?  

Does that discredit the scripture, no.  Can we be broken by sin, yes.  I am not debating the point, just thinking through it.......


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 23, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> I forgot my wallet...so just chiming in.
> 
> A person that does justice from his heart knows the gospel before it is preached to him/her. "Through Christ" is much bigger than "through the church" that would define Him, yet He it is who created and defines her.



Hey, I'm glad your back 

Would this perspective tie in with Paul's later comments about us being incapable of righteousness on our own?


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 23, 2011)

> I have considered the potter and clay a bunch, and here is where I am at with it:
> 
> We are not pots. I get the analogy Paul is making, and I understand what you are seeing there. But surely, God, who leves us so much he would have his son killed for us, sees us as more than you or I would see a pot. So, could there be more than meets the eye with that scripture?
> 
> Does that discredit the scripture, no. Can we be broken by sin, yes. I am not debating the point, just thinking through it.......



I just don't get it.  It seems like you're just saying, "Well, I don't like what that says...so I'm going to try to think of a way around it."

I know you're not being that direct about it.  But that's what it seems like.  You've got what makes sense to you and you want scripture to fit it rather than letting scripture direct what you believe.

I know...I know.  "Please don't speak for me and you're doing the same thing."

I have no idea why I keep coming back.  It's like the thread is a bug zapper and I'm a fly.  I'm gonna get that light eventually.  I  just know it!


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 23, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I just don't get it.  It seems like you're just saying, "Well, I don't like what that says...so I'm going to try to think of a way around it."



You are looking at it backwards

I am not trying to fit it into what I want, I am trying to find logic in the system.  I mentioned just a few posts back that TF's thoughts would elliminate the logical problem.  So would Randy and G2's.  

If God does not necessarily love the entire world, eternal condemnation without a chance makes sense.

If God does love the entire world, eternal salvation for everybody makes sense.

Your position, and that of most Christians I have ever known, that God loves the entire world but will eternally condemn folks without a chance creates a logical problem.  Refer back to my analogy about you kid going to war.

And, lets please stop reading between the lines of what I am saying. I can't debate what my thoughts "seem" to be, that would be ridiculous. Let's debate what is stated: I have questions and am asking for opinions.




Huntinfool said:


> I have no idea why I keep coming back.  It's like the thread is a bug zapper and I'm a fly.  I'm gonna get that light eventually.  I  just know it!



It's because you "know" you are right, and you can't stop until everybody else "knows" it too.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 23, 2011)

> It's because you "know" you are right, and you can't stop until everybody else "knows" it too.




Sorta like this...

	Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.”

(Matthew 28:19-20 ESV)


Just for reference.  This is how many times "Potter" is referred to in the Bible.  Most of the time "Potter" is in reference to God.  Typically we are either referred to as "clay" or "pot", or "vessel" in contrast.  An OT traditional analogy carried into the NT.  

JB...we are "pots" from the Bible's perspective.  Paul was talking about the purpose that God created certain people for.  Ultimately, for his glory.  But, they were created for distruction.  Look deeper if you like.  Maybe there is something there.  But it does not change the intended message of the surface.


Psalm 2:9 
You shall break1 them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.”


Isaiah 29:16 
You turn things upside down!
Shall the potter be regarded as the clay,
that the thing made should say of its maker,
“He did not make me”;
or the thing formed say of him who formed it,
“He has no understanding”?


Isaiah 30:14 
and its breaking is like that of a potter's vessel
that is smashed so ruthlessly
that among its fragments not a shard is found
with which to take fire from the hearth,
or to dip up water out of the cistern.”


Isaiah 41:25 
I stirred up one from the north, and he has come,
from the rising of the sun, and he shall call upon my name;
he shall trample on rulers as on mortar,
as the potter treads clay.


Isaiah 64:8 
But now, O Lord, you are our Father;
we are the clay, and you are our potter;
we are all the work of your hand.


Jeremiah 18:2 
“Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will let you hear my words.”

Jeremiah 18:3 
So I went down to the potter's house, and there he was working at his wheel.

Jeremiah 18:4 
And the vessel he was making of clay was spoiled in the potter's hand, and he reworked it into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to do.

Jeremiah 18:6 
“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter has done? declares the Lord. Behold, like the clay in the potter's hand, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel.


Jeremiah 19:11 
and shall say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord of hosts: So will I break this people and this city, as one breaks a potter's vessel, so that it can never be mended. Men shall bury in Topheth because there will be no place else to bury.

Lamentations 4:2 
The precious sons of Zion,
worth their weight in fine gold,
how they are regarded as earthen pots,
the work of a potter's hands!


Romans 9:21 
Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 23, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Sorta like this...
> 
> Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.”
> 
> (Matthew 28:19-20 ESV)






When you have sold everything and moved to the farthest reaches of Africa to reach those poor folks who have never heard, then I will say it is the same thing.

Until then, my opinion is that you just want everybody to agree with you.

But, I have absolutely appreciated your insight on here.  I mean that sincerely.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 23, 2011)

What do you think I'm doing in this thread?

Farthest reaches?  Nearest reaches are far enough?

Does it dilute me if I train my kids to love the Lord, support a family (financially, in prayer and emotionally) from our church who literally just moved to Ethiopia a month ago to open the only Christian school in the country (in fact had them live in our house with us for some time while they prepped), minister to those around me in the U.S and just generally live to share the gospel?

David Platt's book does have me thinking hardcore about how comfortable and attached I am to the American dream.  I'll give you that.  

All of a sudden you're black and white.  Living the Great Commission can only mean selling everything and moving to Africa.  Congrats.  You're coming in my direction.  Shades of gray are leaving your color spectrum.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 23, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> All of a sudden you're black and white.  Living the Great Commission can only mean selling everything and moving to Africa.  Congrats.  You're coming in my direction.  Shades of gray are leaving your color spectrum.



Lighten up, its Friday.  I was only pointing out that you think folks go to he11 who have never heard.  We on this forum all have heard. So you are not doing the same thing here.  

I was not challenging your commitment to the gospel.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 23, 2011)

All have heard on this forum....not all believe.  




> I was not challenging your commitment to the gospel



Sure you were.  But I'm ok with it.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 23, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Sure you were.  But I'm ok with it.



Okay, I am editing my last post to remove the nice things I said, and then I am giving you a 

I have no reason to lie about things.  I was only pointing out the discrepancy between the examples.  Believe as you wish.


----------

