# Hello, Everyone



## dexrusjak

Just wanted to swing by and introduce myself.  I've been reading this forum for a couple years now and figured it was time for me to open an account and chime in with my two cents from time to time.  I love discussing religion with open-minded, respectful people.  

I was raised in a fundamentalist, Southern Baptist home here in Georgia.  I embraced my parents' religion for the majority of my young life.  While in college, I felt a call to serve God in full time ministry.  Over the course of the next few years, I served as a home missionary and youth minister in several churches.  I sought God's will in everything I did and vowed to live my life for Him.

Over the course of a couple years, as a result of intense study (earned a B. A. in Philosophy of Religion) and earnest soul-searching, I kicked and screamed my way out of faith.  Over the past ten years, I have evolved from devout Evangelical Christian to liberal Christian to agnostic to atheist.  I have now embraced atheism for two years and truly believe that there is no god.  

I will remain open to the possibility that I may be wrong (nobody's perfect), but I cannot and will not force myself to believe something that, to me, is extremely implausible.  I look forward to debating with you and learning from your perspectives.

I'll throw out a question to get my feet wet in here...for the atheists and agnostics...Are any of your stories similar to mine?  Were any of you Christians at one time, or have you always been unbelievers?  

I look forward to the conversations with each of you.  Thanks for having me.


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## Israel

welcome...


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## earl

Howdy. We have some similarities .,although I'm not quite the atheist some believe me to be. Along with that open mind ,hope yoi have thick skin.


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## ronpasley

welcome aboard sir


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## ambush80

What a long, strange trip it's been, eh?

I'm a defacto atheist.  Christianity wasn't pounded into me as a child.  I got enough of the fire and brimstone and enough of the cute Bible stories like: Jonah and the whale, the Garden of Eden and the Devil so that when I got old enough to think for my self the concepts became suspect.

What do you say to people that tell you that you were never REALLY a Christian?

Do you hunt and fish?

P.S. No debating allowed here.  Discuss all you want and WELCOME.


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## Ronnie T

Welcome.
Keep your britchy-legs rolled up.


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## gordon 2

Hello,

You no doubt have noticed some post U-tube videos with no rhyme or reason other than to stir the base reactions in people, however for your welcome I will undo this. For you and you alone...welcome.

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/TV11s8Mj1U4?fs=1&hl=en_US&rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/TV11s8Mj1U4?fs=1&hl=en_US&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


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## hayseed_theology

Welcome, friend.


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## Six million dollar ham

dexrusjak said:


> Just wanted to swing by and introduce myself.  I've been reading this forum for a couple years now and figured it was time for me to open an account and chime in with my two cents from time to time.  I love discussing religion with open-minded, respectful people.
> 
> I was raised in a fundamentalist, Southern Baptist home here in Georgia.  I embraced my parents' religion for the majority of my young life.  While in college, I felt a call to serve God in full time ministry.  Over the course of the next few years, I served as a home missionary and youth minister in several churches.  I sought God's will in everything I did and vowed to live my life for Him.
> 
> Over the course of a couple years, as a result of intense study (earned a B. A. in Philosophy of Religion) and earnest soul-searching, I kicked and screamed my way out of faith.  Over the past ten years, I have evolved from devout Evangelical Christian to liberal Christian to agnostic to atheist.  I have now embraced atheism for two years and truly believe that there is no god.
> 
> I will remain open to the possibility that I may be wrong (nobody's perfect), but I cannot and will not force myself to believe something that, to me, is extremely implausible.  I look forward to debating with you and learning from your perspectives.
> 
> I'll throw out a question to get my feet wet in here...for the atheists and agnostics...Are any of your stories similar to mine?  Were any of you Christians at one time, or have you always been unbelievers?
> 
> I look forward to the conversations with each of you.  Thanks for having me.



Welcome!  I didn't go into anything like you (never heard a calling) but I was raised in my parents' religion also (well, the denomination to which my dad converted after my parents were married).  It just never made any sense to me and I've just never been convinced of the existence of deities.  Just gave up all efforts to make it look like I was a Christian a few years ago.  

Let's see, a student of philosophy and religion, well-traveled, walked the walk it appears....pretty substantial pedigree it seems.  Oh but atheist....pretty sure you'll be labeled as a _pot-sterrin troal_ by the weekend.  You can take that as a compliment.  I always do.


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## christianhunter

dexrusjak said:


> Just wanted to swing by and introduce myself.  I've been reading this forum for a couple years now and figured it was time for me to open an account and chime in with my two cents from time to time.  I love discussing religion with open-minded, respectful people.
> 
> I was raised in a fundamentalist, Southern Baptist home here in Georgia.  I embraced my parents' religion for the majority of my young life.  While in college, I felt a call to serve God in full time ministry.  Over the course of the next few years, I served as a home missionary and youth minister in several churches.  I sought God's will in everything I did and vowed to live my life for Him.
> 
> Over the course of a couple years, as a result of intense study (earned a B. A. in Philosophy of Religion) and earnest soul-searching, I kicked and screamed my way out of faith.  Over the past ten years, I have evolved from devout Evangelical Christian to liberal Christian to agnostic to atheist.  I have now embraced atheism for two years and truly believe that there is no god.
> 
> I will remain open to the possibility that I may be wrong (nobody's perfect), but I cannot and will not force myself to believe something that, to me, is extremely implausible.  I look forward to debating with you and learning from your perspectives.
> 
> I'll throw out a question to get my feet wet in here...for the atheists and agnostics...Are any of your stories similar to mine?  Were any of you Christians at one time, or have you always been unbelievers?
> 
> I look forward to the conversations with each of you.  Thanks for having me.



Not being rude,and certainly you have just as much right here as anyone else.What do you have to offer?
An objective view?
Proof there is no GOD,since you alledgedly,slipped out of HIS hands?
What draws an atheist to Christians?
True Christians,whose Faith,cannot be swayed?
I think these are fair questions,since you have been lurking about for a few years.Possibly under a different "user name".This writing sure looks familiar.


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## Ronnie T

Six million dollar ham said:


> Welcome!  I didn't go into anything like you (never heard a calling) but I was raised in my parents' religion also (well, the denomination to which my dad converted after my parents were married).  It just never made any sense to me and I've just never been convinced of the existence of deities.  Just gave up all efforts to make it look like I was a Christian a few years ago.
> 
> Let's see, a student of philosophy and religion, well-traveled, walked the walk it appears....pretty substantial pedigree it seems.  Oh but atheist....pretty sure you'll be labeled as a _pot-sterrin troal_ by the weekend.  You can take that as a compliment.  I always do.



It won't take long to find out his pot sterrin abilities.
Let's see, a proclaimed atheist on a spiritual forum, we'll see.


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## Ronnie T

Six million dollar ham said:


> Welcome!  I didn't go into anything like you (never heard a calling) but I was raised in my parents' religion also (well, the denomination to which my dad converted after my parents were married).  It just never made any sense to me and I've just never been convinced of the existence of deities.  Just gave up all efforts to make it look like I was a Christian a few years ago.
> 
> Let's see, a student of philosophy and religion, well-traveled, walked the walk it appears....pretty substantial pedigree it seems.  Oh but atheist....pretty sure you'll be labeled as a _pot-sterrin troal_ by the weekend.  You can take that as a compliment.  I always do.



Oh really!

.


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## Madman

Ambush is right, no debating.

Maybe we can meet on another forum.  I figure an atheist, which I don't believe in, would not have a spiritual side and therefore only be looking for an argument.

Which is another no-no.


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## ronpasley




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## dexrusjak

ambush80 said:


> What a long, strange trip it's been, eh?
> 
> I'm a defacto atheist.  Christianity wasn't pounded into me as a child.  I got enough of the fire and brimstone and enough of the cute Bible stories like: Jonah and the whale, the Garden of Eden and the Devil so that when I got old enough to think for my self the concepts became suspect.
> 
> What do you say to people that tell you that you were never REALLY a Christian?
> 
> Do you hunt and fish?
> 
> P.S. No debating allowed here.  Discuss all you want and WELCOME.



When I was a Christian, I was embarassingly arrogant about my "calling" and faith.  I chalk most of that up to my youth.  Having gotten older, I've lost most of my arrogance concerning everything (hence, the "I might be wrong" comment from my original post).  In that arrogance, I told several people who had rejected Christianity that they were never *really* Christians.  Looking back, I feel like a jerk for being so judgemental.  Today, when people tell me I was never really a Christian, I take it with a grain of salt.  I remember being in their shoes.

I never really got into hunting, but I fish as often as possible -- nothing (aside from my family and friends) brings me greater joy than hauling in a big bass or red.


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## dexrusjak

christianhunter said:


> Not being rude,and certainly you have just as much right here as anyone else.What do you have to offer?
> An objective view?
> Proof there is no GOD,since you alledgedly,slipped out of HIS hands?
> What draws an atheist to Christians?
> True Christians,whose Faith,cannot be swayed?
> I think these are fair questions,since you have been lurking about for a few years.Possibly under a different "user name".This writing sure looks familiar.



I certainly have no proof that there is no god.  If I did, I would write books, conduct lectures, and be a very wealthy man.  I think I can offer some insight into some issues that led me away from the faith of my parents.  I can bring the perspective of someone who has lived on both sides of the belief dividing line.  I am drawn to this board because, as I stated before, I enjoy discussing religious issues with others, especially with those who disagree with me.  I learn from such discussions.  

I don't know who you think I am, but I've never posted here before yesterday.  I look forward to our discussions.


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## jmharris23

Well we're glad you are here, but you will soon find there are none here who discuss religion with an open mind. 

There are some who think they do under the name of atheism or religious tolerance but they are just as staunch in there view as those of us who believe in Christ are in ours.

In fact, and this is unfortunate, they may be even more dedicated to their cause. 

That being said and out of the way, I'm going to go ahead and address your story and your atheism. 

According to Scripture you never were a Christian but one of those in who the seed of the Gospel fell on rocky soil. You felt joy for a little while but developed no roots and fell away. You thought you had somethign you never had, whether it came from your upbringing and pressure to follow your parents, or some emotional experience where you really thought you believed, you didn't get it. 

You still don't get it, but I hope and pray God softens your heart before it's too late.

Welcome


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## gordon 2

jmharris23 said:


> Well we're glad you are here, but you will soon find there are none here who discuss religion with an open mind.
> 
> There are some who think they do under the name of atheism or religious tolerance but they are just as staunch in there view as those of us who believe in Christ are in ours.
> 
> In fact, and this is unfortunate, they may be even more dedicated to their cause.
> 
> That being said and out of the way, I'm going to go ahead and address your story and your atheism.
> 
> According to Scripture you never were a Christian but one of those in who the seed of the Gospel fell on rocky soil. You felt joy for a little while but developed no roots and fell away. You thought you had somethign you never had, whether it came from your upbringing and pressure to follow your parents, or some emotional experience where you really thought you believed, you didn't get it.
> 
> You still don't get it, but I hope and pray God softens your heart before it's too late.
> 
> Welcome



Excellent! jmharris! I have to agree.

 Also the young person's natural revolt from his parents  and his parents world and guilt from "sins" as we take on the bodies of adults and take on our unique personalities, will account for a fall out in some cases... 

And of course today we have Steven Hawkin's cosmology, Pen and Teller, the Family guy, and others that start the mind to think critically at a early age and this is good.

When I went to college many yrs ago, I shared a dorm room. The first thing my room mate did when we moved in was take the crusifix on wall, that was between our beds, and hang it upside down. I know for a fact that he was revolting from his mother's spiritual life and the influence it had in his upbringing. And as far as I know, today in his late 50's he's still at the same place,  however, instead for the crusifix, it is the bottle that he likes to tip upside down to rid the pain, the anxiety and the lonelyness.


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## ambush80

jmharris23 said:


> Well we're glad you are here, but you will soon find there are none here who discuss religion with an open mind.
> 
> There are some who think they do under the name of atheism or religious tolerance but they are just as staunch in there view as those of us who believe in Christ are in ours.
> 
> In fact, and this is unfortunate, they may be even more dedicated to their cause.
> 
> That being said and out of the way, I'm going to go ahead and address your story and your atheism.
> 
> According to Scripture you never were a Christian but one of those in who the seed of the Gospel fell on rocky soil. You felt joy for a little while but developed no roots and fell away. You thought you had somethign you never had, whether it came from your upbringing and pressure to follow your parents, or some emotional experience where you really thought you believed, you didn't get it.
> 
> You still don't get it, but I hope and pray God softens your heart before it's too late.
> 
> Welcome



Who has more of an open mind?  Someone who says "I don't know" or someone who says "I absolutely without question know?"


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## dexrusjak

jmharris23 said:


> Well we're glad you are here, but you will soon find there are none here who discuss religion with an open mind.
> 
> There are some who think they do under the name of atheism or religious tolerance but they are just as staunch in there view as those of us who believe in Christ are in ours.
> 
> In fact, and this is unfortunate, they may be even more dedicated to their cause.
> 
> That being said and out of the way, I'm going to go ahead and address your story and your atheism.
> 
> According to Scripture you never were a Christian but one of those in who the seed of the Gospel fell on rocky soil. You felt joy for a little while but developed no roots and fell away. You thought you had somethign you never had, whether it came from your upbringing and pressure to follow your parents, or some emotional experience where you really thought you believed, you didn't get it.
> 
> You still don't get it, but I hope and pray God softens your heart before it's too late.
> 
> Welcome



If being saved and baptized at age eleven, believing in god the father, Jesus as his son, the holy spirit as the third member of the trinity that indwells believers on Earth, witnessing to strangers, leading college and high school friends to pray the sinners prayer, leading numerous Bible studies, teaching Sunday school classes, preaching sermons from the pulpits of Southern Baptist churches, serving as a home missionary, giving money to numerous ministry organizations, praying without ceasing, living in joy and hope believing that Jesus' return was imminent without one single doubt FOR TWENTY YEARS is what you call feeling joy for "a little while," then I agree with your assessment.


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## Inatree

dexrusjak said:


> Just wanted to swing by and introduce myself.  I've been reading this forum for a couple years now and figured it was time for me to open an account and chime in with my two cents from time to time.  I love discussing religion with open-minded, respectful people.
> 
> I was raised in a fundamentalist, Southern Baptist home here in Georgia.  I embraced my parents' religion for the majority of my young life.  While in college, I felt a call to serve God in full time ministry.  Over the course of the next few years, I served as a home missionary and youth minister in several churches.  I sought God's will in everything I did and vowed to live my life for Him.
> 
> Over the course of a couple years, as a result of intense study (earned a B. A. in Philosophy of Religion) and earnest soul-searching, I kicked and screamed my way out of faith.  Over the past ten years, I have evolved from devout Evangelical Christian to liberal Christian to agnostic to atheist.  I have now embraced atheism for two years and truly believe that there is no god.
> 
> I will remain open to the possibility that I may be wrong (nobody's perfect), but I cannot and will not force myself to believe something that, to me, is extremely implausible.  I look forward to debating with you and learning from your perspectives.
> 
> I'll throw out a question to get my feet wet in here...for the atheists and agnostics...Are any of your stories similar to mine?  Were any of you Christians at one time, or have you always been unbelievers?
> 
> I look forward to the conversations with each of you.  Thanks for having me.




A.D.D. ?


As a former atheist I call "BULL".
I won't comment on whether you were a true Christian but I can in fact comment on whether you are true atheist as I spent most of my life being one.
A real atheist thinks Christians are insane and weak minded and would never waste his time discussing what he believes is "extremely implausible"and chatting it up with the insane.
As a former atheist I can say that religion was not worthy of debate or even thought and I didn't give a rats behind if others wanted to chase leprechauns.
So ,if you are real atheist, How bored do you have to get to actually discuss this subject ? Do you devote the same amount of time debating palm reading or astrology ?

So, You are here to play games. In the future try to do so without insulting our intelligence.
BTW You are not alone.


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## Pale Rider

I reckon there ain't nobody here who "knows" anything. There ain't no proof to either side. The problems start when a feller says his version is truer than your version. Some of the most devout Christians, the ones with the education and life to back up their beliefs, will tell you that they have had doubts at some point or another. You ain't a thikin person iffin you ain't had doubts. I also reckon that those here who call themselves atheists have had doubts surrounding their beliefs, too. It's just natural. Heck, I second guess buying a fishin rod sometimes. I've had doubts about being a good daddy even when the evidence suggests that I have been a great daddy.

Reckon what I am sayin is that I choose the believe what I want to believe and I don't need nobody a tellin me that I am dumb. And that would go both ways, Christian or atheist. 

I also reckon that if I am wrong, I guess I will just be worm fodder. If an atheist is wrong, he's kindlin.


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## jmharris23

dexrusjak said:


> If being saved and baptized at age eleven, believing in god the father, Jesus as his son, the holy spirit as the third member of the trinity that indwells believers on Earth, witnessing to strangers, leading college and high school friends to pray the sinners prayer, leading numerous Bible studies, teaching Sunday school classes, preaching sermons from the pulpits of Southern Baptist churches, serving as a home missionary, giving money to numerous ministry organizations, praying without ceasing, living in joy and hope believing that Jesus' return was imminent without one single doubt FOR TWENTY YEARS is what you call feeling joy for "a little while," then I agree with your assessment.



Listen friend, don't get too bunched up about what I said. 

In the scheme of eternity 20 years is nothing. 

I hear what you have to say, but here is what Jesus says.

I am sure with all your years of teaching you are very familiar with this:

" You don't believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice;I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM FROM THE FATHER'S HAND."  John 10:26-29


I in no way am trying to offend you, and in all honesty,you shouldn't be offended at all. If you have truly seen the light and no longer believe in God, then all your 20 years of service to the kingdom was the biggest waste of life anyone can possibly imagine, and in the words of Paul, you of all people are most to be pitied.


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## dexrusjak

jmharris23 said:


> Listen friend, don't get too bunched up about what I said.
> 
> In the scheme of eternity 20 years is nothing.
> 
> I hear what you have to say, but here is what Jesus says.
> 
> I am sure with all your years of teaching you are very familiar with this:
> 
> " You don't believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice;I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM FROM THE FATHER'S HAND."  John 10:26-29
> 
> 
> I in no way am trying to offend you, and in all honesty,you shouldn't be offended at all. If you have truly seen the light and no longer believe in God, then all your 20 years of service to the kingdom was the biggest waste of life anyone can possibly imagine, and in the words of Paul, you of all people are most to be pitied.



I am not offended in the least and appreciate your insight.


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## dexrusjak

Inatree said:


> A.D.D. ?
> 
> 
> As a former atheist I call "BULL".
> I won't comment on whether you were a true Christian but I can in fact comment on whether you are true atheist as I spent most of my life being one.
> A real atheist thinks Christians are insane and weak minded and would never waste his time discussing what he believes is "extremely implausible"and chatting it up with the insane.
> As a former atheist I can say that religion was not worthy of debate or even thought and I didn't give a rats behind if others wanted to chase leprechauns.
> So ,if you are real atheist, How bored do you have to get to actually discuss this subject ? Do you devote the same amount of time debating palm reading or astrology ?
> 
> So, You are here to play games. In the future try to do so without insulting our intelligence.
> BTW You are not alone.



Well aren't you the pleasant one?  I never claimed to be a millitant atheist who believes that Christians are insane or weak minded.  Some of the best and brightest people I know are Christians.  I don't think discussing religion is a waste of time in the least.  Discussing religion offers insight into a person's thoughts and actions.  It teaches us about why people make decisions they make and how their decisions affect each of us.  I rarely have a religious discussion in which I don't learn something.  As long as I am learning, I am not wasting my time.  

If you claim to not give a rat's behind about other's beliefs, then why are you reading this forum?

Hope you have a great day, friend.


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## ambush80

dexrusjak said:


> Well aren't you the pleasant one?  I never claimed to be a millitant atheist who believes that Christians are insane or weak minded.  Some of the best and brightest people I know are Christians.  I don't think discussing religion is a waste of time in the least.  Discussing religion offers insight into a person's thoughts and actions.  It teaches us about why people make decisions they make and how their decisions affect each of us.  I rarely have a religious discussion in which I don't learn something.  As long as I am learning, I am not wasting my time.
> 
> If you claim to not give a rat's behind about other's beliefs, then why are you reading this forum?
> 
> Hope you have a great day, friend.



You will find that some people here envision this forum as a " Praise the Lord, hallelujah, amen, slap on the back" exclusive club and not really a place for open discussion.


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## possum steak

jmharris23 said:


> " You don't believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice;I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM FROM THE FATHER'S HAND."  John 10:26-29



I'm not so sure I understand this "you were never a Christian" stuff either.

JMHarris while it is true that no one can snatch a believer from the Father's hand, at the same time, according the the scripture one can "depart from the Faith" and have his name blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life. 

A believer CAN change his mind according to his own free will, but no one can take that faith from him but his own self.


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## Inatree

dexrusjak said:


> Well aren't you the pleasant one?  I never claimed to be a millitant atheist who believes that Christians are insane or weak minded.  Some of the best and brightest people I know are Christians.  I don't think discussing religion is a waste of time in the least.  Discussing religion offers insight into a person's thoughts and actions.  It teaches us about why people make decisions they make and how their decisions affect each of us.  I rarely have a religious discussion in which I don't learn something.  As long as I am learning, I am not wasting my time.
> 
> If you claim to not give a rat's behind about other's beliefs, then why are you reading this forum?
> 
> Hope you have a great day, friend.



I just say what I think.
I think that debating atheism/Christianity would put you a lot closer to a "militant atheist" than someone who totally avoids the subject as any true atheist would.

As an enlightened atheist you cant seriously think that there is something to learn from someone who bases their opinions and actions on whether it pleases the magic man in the sky. As an atheist I always thought that I had an unbridled tactical advantage over that portion of the populace that was hindered by pleasing the magic man and preferred that they keep doing it.
I will call "bull" in a heartbeat at ANYONE claiming to be an "atheist" and spending valuable limited minutes of this life discussing what they believe is mass insanity and a fairy tale, I always had better things to do and don't recall ever debating God, the tooth fairy, wizards,dragons,or political ethics.
To answer your final question, I am no longer an atheist. I am now a Christian(Only God can turn chaff to wheat )and find discussions about God's word very interesting.


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## Inatree

ambush80 said:


> You will find that some people here envision this forum as a " Praise the Lord, hallelujah, amen, slap on the back" exclusive club and not really a place for open discussion.



Why are you crying?
We ARE discussing.


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## christianhunter

possum steak said:


> I'm not so sure I understand this "you were never a Christian" stuff either.
> 
> JMHarris while it is true that no one can snatch a believer from the Father's hand, at the same time, according the the scripture one can "depart from the Faith" and have his name blotted out of the Lamb's Book of Life.
> 
> A believer CAN change his mind according to his own free will, but no one can take that faith from him but his own self.



Scripture is specific,"No Man",that does include ones self.Read II Timothy very closely.


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## christianhunter

dexrusjak said:


> I certainly have no proof that there is no god.  If I did, I would write books, conduct lectures, and be a very wealthy man.  I think I can offer some insight into some issues that led me away from the faith of my parents.  I can bring the perspective of someone who has lived on both sides of the belief dividing line.  I am drawn to this board because, as I stated before, I enjoy discussing religious issues with others, especially with those who disagree with me.  I learn from such discussions.
> 
> I don't know who you think I am, but I've never posted here before yesterday.  I look forward to our discussions.



I can prove there is a GOD,at least for me.I'm a changed man.I still sin,of course,not without reservations,and consequences though.I had a truck accident in 2009.I literally,physically felt arms holding me as I was speeding toward the bank and concrete culvert.I had on no seat belt,so this does indeed cancel out "Murphys Law",because this accident Praise GOD ALMIGHTY,did not have an equal and opposite reaction.I feel HIS presense when I'm walking with HIM,and I feel HIS absense when I'm disobedient.These are not "head games",but true mental,emotional,and physical feelings.I take great offense,when some one tells me my FATHER does not exist.My Savior gave HIS Life for me,not to be taken lightly at all.Secular writers of the day,confirm the Life,and Death of My LORD JESUS.


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## earl

Welcome Pale Rider.
Dex ,that skin getting tougher yet ??


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## Madman

jmharris23 said:


> but you will soon find there are none here who discuss religion with an open mind.



Probably correct especially the Christians.

We should have a mind submitted to Christ.

Ah, snug lie those that slumber
Beneath Conviction’s roof.
Their floors are sturdy lumber,
Their windows weatherproof.
But I sleep cold forever
And cold sleep all my kind,
For I was born to shiver
In the draft of an open mind.
                                 Phyllis McGinley


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## Michael F. Gray

Proverbs 29:1  "He that being often reproved hardeneth his neck, shall suddenly be destroyed, and that without remedy."

You can live a self proclaimed agnostic or athiest. You may have had a drug problem as a child, being drug to Church three times a week, and perhaps more often during revivals.
The real question that begs to asked is can you die in this state. 
My gut tells me you are not that big a fool. I hope I'm correct.
Michael F. Gray
Homo-Unius-Libri


----------



## gordon 2

Perhaps everyone is spiritual?everyone! Might not be christian, might not be a God and Holy Ghost believer, might not be....______, but y'all still spiritual? Hense, athiests and agnostics and messianics and catholics and spotniks and cross road vousdooers and Tent Revival revelers and comet jumpers and your dentist are all spiritual. I think Saint Paul said something to that effect about the Greeks... although they ( the greeks) believed in nothing and all sorts of things, they were a very spiritual people. Same with us?


----------



## tomtlb66

Welcome aboard, I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I do believe and have all of my faith in Him. With that being said, I welcome you to this forum and any athiest as well. I will try to be respectful and I ask that you will as well. You know something though? Its not a coincident that your here. And yes I probably spelled that wrong too. But, be prepared to be prayed for, thats what we do.


----------



## thedeacon

dexrusjak said:


> Just wanted to swing by and introduce myself.  I've been reading this forum for a couple years now and figured it was time for me to open an account and chime in with my two cents from time to time.  I love discussing religion with open-minded, respectful people.
> 
> I was raised in a fundamentalist, Southern Baptist home here in Georgia.  I embraced my parents' religion for the majority of my young life.  While in college, I felt a call to serve God in full time ministry.  Over the course of the next few years, I served as a home missionary and youth minister in several churches.  I sought God's will in everything I did and vowed to live my life for Him.
> 
> Over the course of a couple years, as a result of intense study (earned a B. A. in Philosophy of Religion) and earnest soul-searching, I kicked and screamed my way out of faith.  Over the past ten years, I have evolved from devout Evangelical Christian to liberal Christian to agnostic to atheist.  I have now embraced atheism for two years and truly believe that there is no god.
> 
> I will remain open to the possibility that I may be wrong (nobody's perfect), but I cannot and will not force myself to believe something that, to me, is extremely implausible.  I look forward to debating with you and learning from your perspectives.
> 
> I'll throw out a question to get my feet wet in here...for the atheists and agnostics...Are any of your stories similar to mine?  Were any of you Christians at one time, or have you always been unbelievers?
> 
> I look forward to the conversations with each of you.  Thanks for having me.



Sir!
I do not condemn you and I certeinly do not applaud you for what you have come to believe.

It is not my place to personally teach you into hades or to stand up for you obvious lack of faith for My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I will not debate you or discuss the Word with you unless you show a true interest.

To show anything but love for an unbeliever would be the opposite of what Jesus would do. 

So I leave it at this. If you would like my opinion on something please send me a private message and I will respond and always in love without sarcasm. Otherwise all I can say is, you my friend are in my prayers and welcome to this forum.

I hope and pray that tomorrow your eyes will be opened and the love of God will return to your heart.

God Bless You


----------



## Inatree

gordon 2 said:


> Perhaps everyone is spiritual?everyone! Might not be christian, might not be a God and Holy Ghost believer, might not be....______, but y'all still spiritual? Hense, athiests and agnostics and messianics and catholics and spotniks and cross road vousdooers and Tent Revival revelers and comet jumpers and your dentist are all spiritual. I think Saint Paul said something to that effect about the Greeks... although they ( the greeks) believed in nothing and all sorts of things, they were a very spiritual people. Same with us?



Why do I hear a lisp when I read that ?


----------



## possum steak

dexrusjak said:


> I look forward to the conversations with each of you.  Thanks for having me.



Why do you atheists think you can come in here &......................


Joking bro, welcome aboard, you sound like a modest guy who does not claim to know everything, you just like to discuss it.


----------



## Ronnie T

dexrusjak said:


> Well aren't you the pleasant one?  I never claimed to be a millitant atheist who believes that Christians are insane or weak minded.  Some of the best and brightest people I know are Christians.  I don't think discussing religion is a waste of time in the least.  Discussing religion offers insight into a person's thoughts and actions.  It teaches us about why people make decisions they make and how their decisions affect each of us.  I rarely have a religious discussion in which I don't learn something.  As long as I am learning, I am not wasting my time.
> 
> If you claim to not give a rat's behind about other's beliefs, then why are you reading this forum?
> 
> Hope you have a great day, friend.




Read the highlighted portion above.
My question is this:  Why do you care?  Why would you care why some unknown person made a decision about something you say you don't believe in.
Sorry, I don't buy it.

So why have you come?  Your reason will help me decide how much worth to give to your comments.


----------



## Ronnie T

Inatree said:


> I just say what I think.
> I think that debating atheism/Christianity would put you a lot closer to a "militant atheist" than someone who totally avoids the subject as any true atheist would.
> 
> As an enlightened atheist you cant seriously think that there is something to learn from someone who bases their opinions and actions on whether it pleases the magic man in the sky. As an atheist I always thought that I had an unbridled tactical advantage over that portion of the populace that was hindered by pleasing the magic man and preferred that they keep doing it.
> I will call "bull" in a heartbeat at ANYONE claiming to be an "atheist" and spending valuable limited minutes of this life discussing what they believe is mass insanity and a fairy tale, I always had better things to do and don't recall ever debating God, the tooth fairy, wizards,dragons,or political ethics.
> To answer your final question, I am no longer an atheist. I am now a Christian(Only God can turn chaff to wheat )and find discussions about God's word very interesting.



A perfectly logical response.

.


----------



## WTM45

Ronnie T said:


> Read the highlighted portion above.
> My question is this:  Why do you care?  Why would you care why some unknown person made a decision about something you say you don't believe in.
> Sorry, I don't buy it.
> 
> So why have you come?  Your reason will help me decide how much worth to give to your comments.



The basis is found in the human desire to learn and understand the human condition.  That condition involves spiritual beliefs and religions and their impact on both history and the future.

As much as Inatree wants to discredit, there exist many who simply wish to be aware of how folks believe (historically and currently), what they believe and what they invent or create.  Where these beliefs are found is important as well.

Inatree, Atheists "avoiding the subject" are the only "true" Atheists?  BAH!
Atheists are quite educated in the subject of religious belief systems, and are very active in investigating them.  All of them.

Welcome dexrusjak!


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Hello Dex, I'm new here myself and as with any discussion forumn, attitudes are easy to read. Your humble attitude is noted.  I suspect that we can have some interesting discussions. I myself take great interest in what others believe. I like to know what influences ones beliefs. Later, if you don't mind, I'm interested in things such as, did other claiming Christians have an effect on your outcome, does some of the bible stories seem unbelievable,etc. I will always respond respectfully even if we don't agree. Welcome


----------



## Inthegarge

WTM45 said:


> The basis is found in the human desire to learn and understand the human condition.  That condition involves spiritual beliefs and religions and their impact on both history and the future.
> 
> As much as Inatree wants to discredit, there exist many who simply wish to be aware of how folks believe (historically and currently), what they believe and what they invent or create.  Where these beliefs are found is important as well.
> 
> Inatree, Atheists "avoiding the subject" are the only "true" Atheists?  BAH!
> Atheists are quite educated in the subject of religious belief systems, and are very active in investigating them.  All of them.
> 
> Welcome dexrusjak!



You make a very good point. I think every man will ask himself at some point....where did I come from and why am I here ????  I personally can not see how one can look at the complexity of the world, planet and solar system around us and not realize it didn't just happen to end up this way. The example of taking all the parts of a watch and putting them in a bag, shaking them up and expecting a completed watch to come out always comes to my mind.

There is order in EVERYTHING and not chaos. Man's theories contradict each other BUT are dismissed as proof..... In my many years of Education I have only realized that there is much more to life than 60-80 years........... There is a SPIRITUAL hole in every man and we all are trying to fill it one way or another..... I will be glad to answer HONEST questions with an honest answer

Welcome to the forum  ......................  RW


----------



## Jeffriesw

Welcome to the forum Dex.

I will go with Ol' Earl on this one, I hope you have some thick skin.
We all need it once in a while...


----------



## Inatree

WTM45 said:


> The basis is found in the human desire to learn and understand the human condition.  That condition involves spiritual beliefs and religions and their impact on both history and the future.
> 
> As much as Inatree wants to discredit, there exist many who simply wish to be aware of how folks believe (historically and currently), what they believe and what they invent or create.  Where these beliefs are found is important as well.
> 
> Inatree, Atheists "avoiding the subject" are the only "true" Atheists?  BAH!
> Atheists are quite educated in the subject of religious belief systems, and are very active in investigating them.  All of them.
> Welcome dexrusjak!



Good gosh ! 
Where do you come up with the glute time for this pointless pursuit ?
Sitting around unraveling the mysteries of what you have predetermined to be a lie. . .Hmm
Watch your carb intake


----------



## ambush80

Inatree said:


> Good gosh !
> Where do you come up with the glute time for this pointless pursuit ?
> Sitting around unraveling the mysteries of what you have predetermined to be a lie. . .Hmm
> Watch your carb intake



Reincarnation is a spiritual concept that I am personally fascinated with and it need not have anything to do with a God or Gods.  The nature of the consciousness is similar in that regard also.  A very spiritual discussion can be had without cracking open a Koran or Bible.  It's not always about Jesus.


----------



## Ronnie T

Like I said:  "roll your britchy legs up".


----------



## Israel

ambush80 said:


> Reincarnation is a spiritual concept that I am personally fascinated with and it need not have anything to do with a God or Gods.  The nature of the consciousness is similar in that regard also.  A very spiritual discussion can be had without cracking open a Koran or Bible. _ It's not always about Jesus._



Actually, it is.

It's not even about what you or I believe or don't believe.

It always is, and will be, about Jesus.


----------



## Six million dollar ham

Inatree said:


> A.D.D. ?
> 
> As a former atheist I can say that religion was not worthy of debate



Not that you were responding to me with this, but my opinion of this couldn't be more different from yours.  Doctors discuss diseases all day, fwiw.



Inatree said:


> So, You are here to play games.



And there it is.  Didn't take long at all.


----------



## dexrusjak

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello Dex, I'm new here myself and as with any discussion forumn, attitudes are easy to read. Your humble attitude is noted.  I suspect that we can have some interesting discussions. I myself take great interest in what others believe. I like to know what influences ones beliefs. Later, if you don't mind, I'm interested in things such as, did other claiming Christians have an effect on your outcome, does some of the bible stories seem unbelievable,etc. I will always respond respectfully even if we don't agree. Welcome



Glad to know you, friend.  I guess if I really had to boil my journey away from belief down to one major factor it would be the role of the Bible.  I was raised to believe in the Bible as the complete, perfect, spirit-breathed, inerrant, authoritative word of god.  For many years, I blindly accepted this position as fact.  However, when I began reading (I mean really reading) the Bible, some things just didn't add up.  Take the story of the tower of Babel for instance.  One morning, I remember reading that story during my quiet time and thinking, "What's more probable, that this event actually took place, or that ancient men came up with this story to explain why human beings from different cultures speak in different languages?"  The obvious answer then and now is the latter.  I eventually decided that if the Bible is true, Christianity is true, but if the Bible (even parts of the Bible) are false, then Christianity is false.  It didn't take me long to determine that much of the Bible is false.  

This reliance on the Bible is by no means the only factor that led to my deconversion, but it is a prominent one.  Reading the Bible, while apparently leading many to faith in Christ, led me in the opposite direction.


----------



## apoint

Iv seen so many drug to church all their young life just to fall away from their teaching. Once a person knew that they knew that they knew..  How do you fall from the TRUTH??


----------



## ambush80

Israel said:


> Actually, it is.
> 
> It's not even about what you or I believe or don't believe.
> 
> It always is, and will be, about Jesus.



There are many other positions between yours and mine.  We might all be right.


----------



## WTM45

Inatree said:


> Good gosh !
> Where do you come up with the glute time for this pointless pursuit ?
> Sitting around unraveling the mysteries of what you have predetermined to be a lie. . .Hmm
> Watch your carb intake



Strange response.

Who said anything at all about predetermination?
Or predisposition.

I'm talking here about investigation, research, study, reading, comprehension, questioning, assessment, interviewing, listening and evaluating.  You know, all those things folks seeking to become educated do.

It's far from pointless.


----------



## ambush80

dexrusjak said:


> Glad to know you, friend.  I guess if I really had to boil my journey away from belief down to one major factor it would be the role of the Bible.  I was raised to believe in the Bible as the complete, perfect, spirit-breathed, inerrant, authoritative word of god.  For many years, I blindly accepted this position as fact.  However, when I began reading (I mean really reading) the Bible, some things just didn't add up.  Take the story of the tower of Babel for instance.  One morning, I remember reading that story during my quiet time and thinking, "What's more probable, that this event actually took place, or that ancient men came up with this story to explain why human beings from different cultures speak in different languages?"  The obvious answer then and now is the latter.  I eventually decided that if the Bible is true, Christianity is true, but if the Bible (even parts of the Bible) are false, then Christianity is false.  It didn't take me long to determine that much of the Bible is false.
> 
> This reliance on the Bible is by no means the only factor that led to my deconversion, but it is a prominent one.  Reading the Bible, while apparently leading many to faith in Christ, led me in the opposite direction.



You'll be accused of having read it with your brain.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Hi Dex, The story of Babel you mentioned, here lies the keys of understanding. Recently I have struggled with whether or not I should withold what has been given to me. In view of the fact that Jesus spoke in parables and God gives understanding to whom he chooses, then who am I that I should choose to think that I could open eyes and ears. Let me give this thought as to whether or not we should discuss this topic. I realize that thru your journey that it has not been an easy one. Several years ago I thought about how every denomination believed they were right and everyone else was wrong. Kind of comical actually, anyway, some of the things that I was taught were questionable. So I set out to verify everything that I believed. I knew that every denomination could not be correct and why blindly assume that mine was. I visited other Christian debate forumns to challenge my thinking, not to challenge people but to see if my beliefs would hold up under a microscope. To make this story shorter, I'll just say that I have walked away from 40 years of traditions. It has not been easy. I actually wanted to be wrong, it would be easier to stay where I was at. My point even though we have had different outcomes, is that I realize that it ain't an easy journey. Each of us should investigate what we believe in order that we might stand firmly. It's interesting to me that most athiest know alot about the bible, as a matter of fact, most know more about it than Christians, even though they don't believe it.Most have given this much thought, driven by their desire to know the truth, have researched this thoroughly. I say all this to show that I understand that you did not come to your conclusions without giving this much thought. Anyway, I don't want to bore you away so I'll quit for now.


----------



## Six million dollar ham

dexrusjak said:


> It didn't take me long to determine that much of the Bible is false.



I didn't believe to start with.  Then pondering Noah's ark, Jonah, the burning bush, talking snakes, etc., just sealed it for me.


----------



## apoint

Six million dollar ham said:


> I didn't believe to start with.  Then pondering Noah's ark, Jonah, the burning bush, talking snakes, etc., just sealed it for me.



Disbelief sealed it for you.
 Are these story's too big for the creator of the universe?
   Man cant even grasp the splendor of a simple bacteria cell or chromosomes in their complexity. There are no simple life forms for evolution to evolve from. They are all complex and God created all things as a wonderment to prove his signature is on everything.

 Psalm 19. The heavens declare the glory of God.


----------



## gordon 2

Inatree said:


> Why do I hear a lisp when I read that ?



Don't know... a poetic list perhaps, aliterations, happy accidents, poor speller.

Wallace Steven, the poet. composed a wonderful and beautiful poem called The Idea of Order at Key West.
What he says I think is that man has to put a grid on the ocean  and anything else because man needs order like robins need worms perhaps or oranges need peels...

In my case the Good News gives order to the universe. It picks up the dust and what is at perifferal vision and what is face on like an upcoming moose hunt or a meeting with a client. It casts a net and a grid like a fisherman's cast net and it is the net and the grid.

Now it is understandable that others find it full of holes, without order, disorganized,  and hopeless.  I have always known that my brian had a memory and could be indifferent to the body's hands... but I have always known that my hands have a memory and so did my father's hands have a memory and so on for centuries. It was ever and still is the hands memory to cast nets and hoop barrel and hold on to order. 

The Good News is good wine...my Lord is just a breath away...Him they say whom they pierced the hands has given order to all of creation again. And that is what is being a christian means to me.


----------



## gtparts

WTM45 said:


> Strange response.
> 
> Who said anything at all about predetermination?
> Or predisposition.
> 
> I'm talking here about investigation, research, study, reading, comprehension, questioning, assessment, interviewing, listening and evaluating.  You know, all those things folks seeking to become educated do.
> 
> It's far from pointless.



Why is it strange to you?

Is it incorrect to reason that an atheist has predetermined that no deity exists? That he or she is predisposed to a state of disbelief?
I thought that, by definition, we could count on that being true of an atheist. Maybe one of us doesn't understand what an atheist is.



Quite simply for a person to devote his time and energy to understand what he has already determined to be completely fictional and nonexistent is sheer lunacy. Once one is utterly convinced that there is no god, why try to make contact or to examine the character of what one knows to be a fiction? If God does not exist, what else is to be known of Him beyond stating He simply isn't?

How do you investigate something that is nonexistent?
How do you research something that is nonexistent?
How do you study something that is nonexistent?
How do you comprehend something that is nonexistent?
How do you evaluate something that is nonexistent?


----------



## Ronnie T

apoint said:


> Disbelief sealed it for you.
> Are these story's too big for the creator of the universe?
> Man cant even grasp the splendor of a simple bacteria cell or chromosomes in their complexity. There are no simple life forms for evolution to evolve from. They are all complex and God created all things as a wonderment to prove his signature is on everything.
> 
> Psalm 19. The heavens declare the glory of God.




And there ya go.  You hit the head on the nail.

1Cor 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?


----------



## WTM45

gtparts said:


> Why is it strange to you?
> 
> Is it incorrect to reason that an atheist has predetermined that no deity exists? That he or she is predisposed to to a state of disbelief?
> I thought that, by definition, we could count on that being true of an atheist. Maybe one of us doesn't understand what an atheist is.
> 
> 
> 
> Quite simply for a person to devote his time and energy to understand what he has already determined to be completely fictional and nonexistent is sheer lunacy. Once one is utterly convinced that there is no god, why try to make contact or to examine the character of what one knows to be a fiction? If God does not exist, what else is to be known of Him beyond stating He simply isn't?
> 
> How do you investigate something that is nonexistent?
> How do you research something that is nonexistent?
> How do you study something that is nonexistent?
> How do you comprehend something that is nonexistent?
> How do you evaluate something that is nonexistent?



There are multiple definitions of Atheists.  You are only addressing the explicit.
You can bet that the above actions and more are taken by Atheists before, during and after arriving at any conclusion.


----------



## ronpasley

> =apoint
> Disbelief sealed it for you.
> Are these story's too big for the creator of the universe?
> Man cant even grasp the splendor of a simple bacteria cell or chromosomes in their complexity. There are no simple life forms for evolution to evolve from. They are all complex and God created all things as a wonderment to prove his signature is on everything.
> 
> Psalm 19. The heavens declare the glory of God.







Ronnie T said:


> And there ya go.  You hit the head on the nail.
> 
> 1Cor 1:20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?



a double amen


----------



## vanguard1

all i can say is i dont know how you can look at everything in this world, take the human body and look at how it is made, just the eye is so complex it did not all just happen, someone made this.


----------



## Israel

I think all of us want something.
We know lack, incompleteness.
To where...and how...we go to have that resolved, makes all the difference.


----------



## Inatree

WTM45 said:


> Strange response.
> 
> Who said anything at all about predetermination?
> Or predisposition.
> 
> I'm talking here about investigation, research, study, reading, comprehension, questioning, assessment, interviewing, listening and evaluating.  You know, all those things folks seeking to become educated do.
> 
> It's far from pointless.



In that case, stop speaking for atheists because you are not one.
You are just a professional student of atheism.
Are you having trouble reaching a conclusion ?
When I was an atheist, I may have been wrong but at least I stood my ground


----------



## dexrusjak

Inatree said:


> In that case, stop speaking for atheists because you are not one.
> You are just a professional student of atheism.
> Are you having trouble reaching a conclusion ?
> When I was an atheist, I may have been wrong but at least I stood my ground



Atheism (and theism for that matter) are not stances of knowledge.  They are stances of belief.  Atheists believe that there is no god.  Theists believe that there is a god.  Though some of us are atheists and others are theists, we are all agnostics, because none of us KNOWS whether or not a god exists.  Most Christians would not claim to know that there is a god because then there would be no need for faith.  Most atheists would not claim to know that there is no god because it is impossible to prove the nonexistence of something.  As long as one lacks in knowledge (which we all do), one will likely continue pursuing that knowledge.  Even if such knowledge will never and can never be fully attained, the pursuer will certainly glean important truths and useful insights along the way.  Herein is the value of discussion and study of religion for an atheist and a theist.


----------



## Inatree

dexrusjak said:


> Atheism (and theism for that matter) are not stances of knowledge.  They are stances of belief.  Atheists believe that there is no god.  Theists believe that there is a god.  Though some of us are atheists and others are theists, we are all agnostics, because none of us KNOWS whether or not a god exists.  Most Christians would not claim to know that there is a god because then there would be no need for faith.  Most atheists would not claim to know that there is no god because it is impossible to prove the nonexistence of something.  As long as one lacks in knowledge (which we all do), one will likely continue pursuing that knowledge.  Even if such knowledge will never and can never be fully attained, the pursuer will certainly glean important truths and useful insights along the way.  Herein is the value of discussion and study of religion for an atheist and a theist.



Read your post #51
You are very confused and once again insulting.
This post and post 51 seem to be written by different authors.
One very conclusive the other wavering

Make a stand


----------



## gordon 2

dexrusjak said:


> Atheism (and theism for that matter) are not stances of knowledge.  They are stances of belief.  Atheists believe that there is no god.  Theists believe that there is a god.  Though some of us are atheists and others are theists, we are all agnostics, because none of us KNOWS whether or not a god exists.  Most Christians would not claim to know that there is a god because then there would be no need for faith.  Most atheists would not claim to know that there is no god because it is impossible to prove the nonexistence of something.  As long as one lacks in knowledge (which we all do), one will likely continue pursuing that knowledge.  Even if such knowledge will never and can never be fully attained, the pursuer will certainly glean important truths and useful insights along the way.  Herein is the value of discussion and study of religion for an atheist and a theist.



I know for a fact that what you claim here does not work. Litterature and arts lament the fact that lots of heros who what to attain insights and wisdom and important truths as you claim end up as depressed old men on the opera stage.

The spiritual and the scientific and reason are avenues to reality, but there is also a body of art. If you can't live in the New York of Christians perhaps you can live in the Paris of the Arts as your point of view is very narrow minded. It needs something other than christianity to bounce on. Your reasonings end up being circular--which is truth is relative...nothing is real, we're all agnostics...bla, bla, bla...

To say that we are all agnostic is to put the ox behind the cart, or perhaps in todays terms, the passagers tow the bus. Your understanding of faith, God and christians  according to a christian is erroneous. ( Mind you some christians ape understanding.) By your statement you don't know what faith is to a christians and that God, to a christian, is proved day in day out. 


I'll tell you again your way is a dead end, but it is a way many have been on it, including myself, until one day the persuit had no place to rest but at the foot of the Lord who had been by them all along--and said here have a beer.

It sounds to me my good brother that you are towing a line--at the other end is the athiest bus. But hay as you say you'll develop good lungs, strong back and atletic legs. Good luck and try to have fun. 

Don't take what I said here as being mean to you.  My intention is just the oposite. Again the road you are travelling is well travelled and it has been trodden opon for centuries--you are a tourist. Hope you understand and see that my sincerity in no way is intended to injure you.

There is a good discussion to be had about your interest if you consult a guy named Jesus...one on one.


----------



## dexrusjak

Inatree said:


> Read your post #51
> You are very confused and once again insulting.
> This post and post 51 seem to be written by different authors.
> One very conclusive the other wavering
> 
> Make a stand



Read my initial post where I state, "I am open to the possiblility that I might be wrong."  The difference between you and me is that I humbly admit that I'm not perfect and may be wrong.  You, on the other hand, arrogantly assert that you are so convinced of your position's truth that you cannot be mistaken.  It is not a matter of knowledge; it is a matter of belief.  The fact is, YOU DON'T KNOW and neither do I.  Feel free to continue in you arrogance and I'll continue in my humility.


----------



## dexrusjak

gordon 2 said:


> I know for a fact that what you claim here does not work. Litterature and arts lament the fact that lots of heros who what to attain insights and wisdom and important truths as you claim end up as depressed old men on the opera stage.
> 
> The spiritual and the scientific and reason are avenues to reality, but there is also a body of art. If you can't live in the New York of Christians perhaps you can live in the Paris of the Arts as your point of view is very narrow minded. It need some other than christianity to bounce on.
> 
> To say that we are all agnostic is to put the ox behind the cart, or perhaps in todays terms, the passagers tow the bus. You understanding of faith, God and christians  according to a christian is erroneous. By you statement you don't know what faith is to a christians and that God to a christian is proved day in day out.
> 
> 
> I'll tell you again your way is a dead end, but it is a way many have been on it, including myself, until one day the persuit had no place to rest but at the foot of the Lord who had been by them all along--and said here have a beer.
> 
> It sounds to me my good brother that you are towing a line--at the other end is the athiest bus. But hay as you say you'll develop good lungs, strong back and atletic legs. Good luck and try to have fun.
> 
> Don't take what I said here as being mean to you.  My intention is just the oposite. Again the road you are travelling is well travelled and it has been trodden opon for centuries--you are a tourist. Hope you understand and see that my sincerity in no way is intended to injure you.
> 
> There is a good discussion to be had about your interest if you consult a guy named Jesus...one on one.



By your statements, you don't understand the difference between faith and knowledge.  One cannot know and have faith.  If one knows, he needs no faith.  Faith is only required for one who does not know.  If god proves himself to you, then you don't need faith.  I would be interested in knowing what this proof consists of.

As far as conversing with Jesus, I've tried that.  Frustrating thing is, he never talks back.


----------



## Ronnie T

I live by faith and in faith in Christ.  I know God exist.  Period.  It's a fact for me.  My faith isn't blind faith.  It is faith that what I cannot see, I can still be certain of.
There are some people who will come to believe just as I do.
Others will not.  They cannot be certain of anything they cannot see......  except the wind, and other such things.
I have seen the evidence of God and His powers just as I have seen the evidence of the wind.
And I am certain that both exist.


----------



## earl

Inatree said:


> Read your post #51
> You are very confused and once again insulting.
> This post and post 51 seem to be written by different authors.
> One very conclusive the other wavering
> 
> Make a stand




You may be missing at least one point by calling for some one to make a stand. When you can prove , or disprove , factually the existence of God ,or a god, you can make an unbeatable stand. Your belief ,or disbelief cannot be proven until you die.  Then who you gonna tell ?

Not making a stand is an agnostic stand . You don't know ,lack of knowing.


----------



## WTM45

Inatree said:


> In that case, stop speaking for atheists because you are not one.
> You are just a professional student of atheism.
> Are you having trouble reaching a conclusion ?
> When I was an atheist, I may have been wrong but at least I stood my ground



I'll speak of what I know.
Not every Atheist is explicit.  Not every Atheist is positive.  Not every Atheist is implicit.
Not every Atheist is de facto.

"Having trouble reaching a conclusion?"  I'm all good there.  Thanks.


----------



## WTM45

dexrusjak said:


> Read my initial post where I state, "I am open to the possiblility that I might be wrong."  The difference between you and me is that I humbly admit that I'm not perfect and may be wrong.  You, on the other hand, arrogantly assert that you are so convinced of your position's truth that you cannot be mistaken.  It is not a matter of knowledge; it is a matter of belief.  The fact is, YOU DON'T KNOW and neither do I.  Feel free to continue in you arrogance and I'll continue in my humility.



Nailed!


----------



## gordon 2

dexrusjak said:


> By your statements, you don't understand the difference between faith and knowledge.  One cannot know and have faith.  If one knows, he needs no faith.  Faith is only required for one who does not know.  If god proves himself to you, then you don't need faith.  I would be interested in knowing what this proof consists of.
> 
> As far as conversing with Jesus, I've tried that.  Frustrating thing is, he never talks back.



1.Again your understanding of faith is as a athiest not a christian. 2.Ok, but you can read him. You are invited. Read him with with discipline...

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----------



## jmharris23

Let's all remember to play nice..... just a friendly reminder for today.


----------



## Inatree

dexrusjak said:


> Read my initial post where I state, "I am open to the possiblility that I might be wrong."  The difference between you and me is that I humbly admit that I'm not perfect and may be wrong.  You, on the other hand, arrogantly assert that you are so convinced of your position's truth that you cannot be mistaken.  It is not a matter of knowledge; it is a matter of belief.  The fact is, YOU DON'T KNOW and neither do I.  Feel free to continue in you arrogance and I'll continue in my humility.



Actually I have not spoken of my faith, only questioned you and others definitions of atheism. So that is a complete falsehood on your part.

There is a difference between boldness and arrogance and I would suggest that inserting a complete falsehood into this discussion is about as arrogant as one gets.

If you know anything about being a Christian then you know that asking me to have doubts about my faith is utterly ridiculous and ultimately a very bad move on my part so boldness is what you get. Deal with it.


----------



## WTM45

Inatree said:


> If you know anything about being a Christian then you know that asking me to have doubts about my faith is utterly ridiculous and ultimately a very bad move on my part so boldness is what you get. Deal with it.



I am quite certain that is not what dexrusjak has asked of you.  I could be wrong, but it does not seem he is addressing your faith at all.
He may simply feel he is on the defensive, as your post #21 reflects a "guns a blazin" attitude to most.  Your post #66 is a crooked finger pointed at me.
Lets all "chill" a little.

What is interesting here is the juxtaposition we observe between you and dexrusjak.  He has made some big changes in his beliefs, as have you.

Inatree, can you, or would you, share what were the key drivers in your changing from a positive Atheist stance to one of belief in Christianity?
I think it would benefit the discussion tremendously!

And, if I have mis-identified the type of Atheist you were before your beliefs changed, I apologize.  Please tell us how you catagorized your Atheist beliefs.


----------



## dexrusjak

Inatree said:


> Actually I have not spoken of my faith, only questioned you and others definitions of atheism. So that is a complete falsehood on your part.
> 
> There is a difference between boldness and arrogance and I would suggest that inserting a complete falsehood into this discussion is about as arrogant as one gets.
> 
> If you know anything about being a Christian then you know that asking me to have doubts about my faith is utterly ridiculous and ultimately a very bad move on my part so boldness is what you get. Deal with it.



1. I am certainly not asking you to have doubts about your faith.  If belief in god helps you make it through life, carry on.  Far be it from me to ask you to change.

2. When I was a Christian, I believed that the possibility of my having doubts was utterly ridiculous.  Funny how time changes a person.  I'll bet you used to believe that the possiblity of having doubts about your lack of belief in god was utterly ridiculous.

3. It's obvious now that you are afraid to doubt the claims made by the Bible concerning your loving father in the sky.  Nothing like fear to motivate one's belief.  For this I pity you.

4. I can appreciate boldness, so carry on with that.

5. Thanks for the friendly conversation.  I look forward to your reply.


----------



## Spotlite

earl said:


> to make a stand. When you can prove , or disprove , factually the existence of God ,or a god, you can make an unbeatable stand. Your belief ,or disbelief cannot be proven until you die.  Then who you gonna tell ?



I thought we had already crossed this bridge?? I cant prove to you there is a God and you cant prove there is no God????


----------



## crackerdave

jmharris23 said:


> Let's all remember to play nice..... just a friendly reminder for today.



Hmmm....First time in a _while_ I've seen this.

Dex - welcome to our OUTDOOR FORUM. We happen to have a lil' ol' "Spiritual" sub-forum here - not a CHRISTIAN sub-forum,mind you,but a spiritual sub-forum.I would guess that 99% of us are outdoorsmen/women.You say you like to fish - are you fishing here?

How many other spiritual forums are you registered on,and why - if I may be so bold as to ask - are you here? I think you should look back through the many,many pages of this sub-forum and observe the many times we have already discussed God/no God on here,and ask yourself this question: Do I really need to be here?


----------



## dexrusjak

crackerdave said:


> Hmmm....First time in a _while_ I've seen this.
> 
> Dex - welcome to our OUTDOOR FORUM. We happen to have a lil' ol' "Spiritual" sub-forum here - not a CHRISTIAN sub-forum,mind you,but a spiritual sub-forum.I would guess that 99% of us are outdoorsmen/women.You say you like to fish - are you fishing here?
> 
> How many other spiritual forums are you registered on,and why - if I may be so bold as to ask - are you here? I think you should look back through the many,many pages of this sub-forum and observe the many times we have already discussed God/no God on here,and ask yourself this question: Do I really need to be here?



Thanks for the warm welcome, friend.  

Like I stated in my original post, I've been reading this forum for a couple of years, so I am familiar with the numerous threads concerning the atheism vs. theism issue.  Numerous times, while reading those threads I considered opening an account so I could chime in.  I just never got around to actually doing so until now.  

I've discussed my atheism on a few other message boards, however, I felt like I couldn't relate to the people there because many of them lived up north or overseas and many seeminly shared no common interests with me, other than discussing religion.  In this forum, I'm surrounded by men and women who I assume are from the same region as me (Georgia specifically) and share a common love for the outdoors.  I truly believe that aside from our apparent disagreement concerning religious beliefs, you and I share many things in common - strong work ethic, love for family and country, possibly a love of sports, etc.

Not here to do any fishing, I'll save that for the streams of the North Georgia Mountains, Lakes Hartwell and Lanier, the Georgia coast, and several secret ponds.  I look forward to getting to know you better.


----------



## Ronnie T

dexrusjak said:


> 1. I am certainly not asking you to have doubts about your faith.  If belief in god helps you make it through life, carry on.  Far be it from me to ask you to change.
> 
> 2. When I was a Christian, I believed that the possibility of my having doubts was utterly ridiculous.  Funny how time changes a person.  I'll bet you used to believe that the possiblity of having doubts about your lack of belief in god was utterly ridiculous.
> 
> 3. It's obvious now that you are afraid to doubt the claims made by the Bible concerning your loving father in the sky.  Nothing like fear to motivate one's belief.  For this I pity you.
> 
> 4. I can appreciate boldness, so carry on with that.
> 
> 5. Thanks for the friendly conversation.  I look forward to your reply.




Let me ask you a question if you don't mind.
Do you think it's possible that you left the faith and stopped believing because Satan began working on you??
Satan saw the good work you were accomplishing in the church so he hit you with both barrels.
And although Satan doesn't always win, he won in his battle with you, at least for now.
Do you believe that's possibly what has happened?


----------



## crackerdave

dexrusjak said:


> Thanks for the warm welcome, friend.
> 
> Like I stated in my original post, I've been reading this forum for a couple of years, so I am familiar with the numerous threads concerning the atheism vs. theism issue.  Numerous times, while reading those threads I considered opening an account so I could chime in.  I just never got around to actually doing so until now.
> 
> I've discussed my atheism on a few other message boards, however, I felt like I couldn't relate to the people there because many of them lived up north or overseas and many seeminly shared no common interests with me, other than discussing religion.  In this forum, I'm surrounded by men and women who I assume are from the same region as me (Georgia specifically) and share a common love for the outdoors.  I truly believe that aside from our apparent disagreement concerning religious beliefs, you and I share many things in common - strong work ethic, love for family and country, possibly a love of sports, etc.
> 
> Not here to do any fishing, I'll save that for the streams of the North Georgia Mountains, Lakes Hartwell and Lanier, the Georgia coast, and several secret ponds.  I look forward to getting to know you better.





If you've been reading here for "a couple of years," you know me pretty well already. I'm what some might call.....um.......... "outspoken?" I don't mean to be abrasive or offensive,although I _do_ get a little "fleshly" when someone questions my God. I've apologized to some - others,I don't care.

Try to make it to one of our campout/get-togethers,to really get to know us.Well,_some_ of us - these spiritual types are kinda skittish about meeting folks face-to-face.
The Fall Primitive Gathering is the next one.There's a couple threads on the "woody's Gatherings,etc" sub-forum about it. You'd be very welcome!


----------



## dexrusjak

crackerdave said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> If you've been reading here for "a couple of years," you know me pretty well already. I'm what some might call.....um.......... "outspoken?" I don't mean to be abrasive or offensive,although I _do_ get a little "fleshly" when someone questions my God. I've apologized to some - others,I don't care.
> 
> Try to make it to one of our campout/get-togethers,to really get to know us.Well,_some_ of us - these spiritual types are kinda skittish about meeting folks face-to-face.
> The Fall Primitive Gathering is the next one.There's a couple threads on the "woody's Gatherings,etc" sub-forum about it. You'd be very welcome!



Thanks, man.  I'll look into it.


----------



## Israel

Jesus is very plain.
He is also very simple.
In the simplest terms, and the plainest, he says on more than one occasion that being worthy of him means counting him in his Kingdom, the only thing worth knowing.
Because of the consistency I see in him, the truth I hear in him, and the absolute faithfulness to live his life in accord with the will of another whom he counts greater than himself, I have been totally convinced of his sincerity.
Though I surely doubt my own, and often doubt that of others, I nevertheless come to the place where in all things I have no equivocation regarding the truth I see in him.
I can't say "you didn't seek hard enough..." or "deep enough"...or "long enough" for I condemn myself with those words, too. 
But I cannot dismiss what the Lord himself has said..."seek, and you will find, ask and you shall receive, knock, and it shall be opened to you."
But to some extent it would be folly for me to have anything but encouragement for you, as though "I" had done some deep searching that has exceeded yours and have therefore been rewarded with faith. All I can say is, for the Lord's purposes he has shown up to me...and if I can say that, I can surely understand he could easily show up for anyone.
Again, I would be remiss to leave these exhortations without the other previously mentioned admonitions and instructions. 
To be a disciple Jesus tells us we must count all else loss.
Now here is a funny thing, too, for I cannot say "I have left all my worldly goods and given to the poor" nor have I suffered all the ignominy the Lord had heaped upon himself. But the Lord knows how much of this vessel is still "stuck" to the earth. I leave his sorting me out, as I shall leave his sorting you out...with him.

But having said all that I can say this without a doubt.
In my heart I know that there has always been only one question that has ever had any real import, and upon its answer hinges the worthiness of every and any other question.
I know, and have always known, if there is no God all else is meaningless. You will seek me, and you will find me, when you seek for me with all your heart.
Length of life, pleasure or misery, accomplishment or complete dissipation mean nothing. I know enough of mathematics and time to understand that a point, even a million year "point" on an infinite line becomes infinitely small...and is of no matter whatsoever.
I have known this as long as I have known anything. But even there, I cannot, or rather will not say, that this is anything that sets me apart. 
For, of all men, no one needs saving more than me.

You could say "that is your guilt talking...and you are just responding to that..."
I could only say that I thank God for the knowledge of sin, the knowledge of my lack, the knowledge of my incompleteness that has caused me, in whatever weak and rudimentary way to reach out to him.

He says something else, however.

That no man will be able to accuse him for their  state in the day of judgment. He alone, is blameless.

I can't blame you for not knowing him...anymore than I can take any glory for myself that I do.


----------



## hummerpoo

dexrusjak said:


> ...Take the story of the tower of Babel for instance.  One morning, I remember reading that story during my quiet time and thinking, "What's more probable, that this event actually took place, or that ancient men came up with this story to explain why human beings from different cultures speak in different languages?"  The obvious answer then and now is the latter...



Just another arrogant atheist.  He thinks that if the CREATOR of the UNIVERSE would explain the mechanism by which He brought about the use of different languages he would understand.  The clay to the potter...; thinking themselves wise...; take your choice of many.  If he had a clue who God is he would be on his face with tears of awe and reverance at the revelation of why.


----------



## Six million dollar ham

dexrusjak said:


> Read my initial post where I state, "I am open to the possiblility that I might be wrong."  The difference between you and me is that I humbly admit that I'm not perfect and may be wrong.  You, on the other hand, arrogantly assert that you are so convinced of your position's truth that you cannot be mistaken.  It is not a matter of knowledge; it is a matter of belief.  The fact is, YOU DON'T KNOW and neither do I.  Feel free to continue in you arrogance and I'll continue in my humility.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Hi Dex, your thread has stirred some controversy, I wish I could apoligize for some of the attitudes thrown your way. After being here a short time I have realized that in the past this forumn has been one of sportsman who came here and discovered fellowship of likeminded believers. Unlike other forumns like CARM where everything is a major debate, this forumn seems to want to stay the old way. I can understand that completly. I hope it never gets like CARM where debates are nasty and shameful among those who claim to be Christlike. Anyway, I don't think some here realize your intent. I know your not here to try to deconvert anybody. As for a few others who don't believe and stop in to leave their comments, I respect there thoughts also. Notice that they stay away from prayer request out of respect proving that they come here for discussion and not to insult. Anyway, I hope that we can have some discussions. I have questions, none in particular, I'm an inquisitive guy but do you have any for me?


----------



## redwards

dexrusjak said:


> .....
> I was raised to believe in the Bible as the complete, perfect, spirit-breathed, inerrant, authoritative word of god. For many years, I blindly accepted this position as fact. However, when I began reading (I mean really reading) the Bible, some things just didn't add up. Take the story of the tower of Babel for instance. One morning, I remember reading that story during my quiet time and thinking, "What's more probable, that this event actually took place, or that ancient men came up with this story to explain why human beings from different cultures speak in different languages?" The obvious answer then and now is the latter. I eventually decided that if the Bible is true, Christianity is true, but if the Bible (even parts of the Bible) are false, then Christianity is false. It didn't take me long to determine that much of the Bible is false.
> ............


So...if I say to my son...."Go to the town square and pick up your mother"....What is my 'instruction' or 'teaching' to my son?


----------



## ambush80

1gr8bldr said:


> Hi Dex, your thread has stirred some controversy, I wish I could apoligize for some of the attitudes thrown your way. After being here a short time I have realized that in the past this forumn has been one of sportsman who came here and discovered fellowship of likeminded believers. Unlike other forumns like CARM where everything is a major debate, this forumn seems to want to stay the old way. I can understand that completly. I hope it never gets like CARM where debates are nasty and shameful among those who claim to be Christlike. Anyway, I don't think some here realize your intent. I know your not here to try to deconvert anybody. As for a few others who don't believe and stop in to leave their comments, I respect there thoughts also. Notice that they stay away from prayer request out of respect proving that they come here for discussion and not to insult. Anyway, I hope that we can have some discussions. I have questions, none in particular, I'm an inquisitive guy but do you have any for me?



I hope you don't mind if I butt in, but....   Why do you believe in the God of the Bible and not another God?


----------



## dexrusjak

ambush80 said:


> I hope you don't mind if I butt in, but....   Why do you believe in the God of the Bible and not another God?



That's a great question. I hope it gets some responses.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

ambush80 said:


> I hope you don't mind if I butt in, but....   Why do you believe in the God of the Bible and not another God?


 I'm not sure of what you mean?? Are you saying that Why do I believe in one God of the bible instead a many Gods of whom are not in the bible. I guess that's what you mean. I don't know, never given it much thought, I'll think about it and get back with you later. By the way, I like to ponder things so keep em coming but one at a time and I'll do my best to answer.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Hey Dex, I see you like to fish, any particular favorite? Got any kids?


----------



## Ronnie T

ambush80 said:


> I hope you don't mind if I butt in, but....   Why do you believe in the God of the Bible and not another God?



Cause there are no others.


----------



## pnome

dexrusjak said:


> I'll throw out a question to get my feet wet in here...for the atheists and agnostics...Are any of your stories similar to mine?  Were any of you Christians at one time, or have you always been unbelievers?
> 
> I look forward to the conversations with each of you.  Thanks for having me.



I was raised Catholic in a devout catholic home.

That is pretty impressive that you were able to overcome that much religious indoctrination.  

Also impressive that you have been so far able to read this forum for 2 years, yet not post.  Wish i had that level of self control.


----------



## crackerdave

pnome said:


> I was raised Catholic in a devout catholic home.
> 
> That is pretty impressive that you were able to overcome that much religious indoctrination.
> 
> Also impressive that you have been so far able to read this forum for 2 years, yet not post.  Wish i had that level of self control.



You an' me _both,_ pnome! No way I could've stayed on the sidelines that long.

Dex,I really respect the way you introduced yourself.That's kinda unusual here - many dive in headfirst,without checking for shallow rock bottom,with dismaying results.

You know what was going through my mind as I typed that? The Stones - "Sympathy for the Devil." Pleased ta meetchoo - hope ya guess my name.


----------



## ambush80

1gr8bldr said:


> I'm not sure of what you mean?? Are you saying that Why do I believe in one God of the bible instead a many Gods of whom are not in the bible. I guess that's what you mean. I don't know, never given it much thought, I'll think about it and get back with you later. By the way, I like to ponder things so keep em coming but one at a time and I'll do my best to answer.



That's kind of what I was asking, and that's a good question as well, but what I really was asking was why do you believe that Jesus is the true God instead of Vishnu, Zeus or Ra?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

ambush80 said:


> That's kind of what I was asking, and that's a good question as well, but what I really was asking was why do you believe that Jesus is the true God instead of Vishnu, Zeus or Ra?


 Your Avatar scares me Jesus is the Son of the [true] living God. Why do I believe this?? Good question, I believe the bible to be true, somewhat like a history book in the sense that it is supported to a degree by other history books. Most religions acknowledge the life and death of a man named Jesus. Even our time BC or AD verifies this. More later, been missing my wife and she just came in.


----------



## ambush80

1gr8bldr said:


> Your Avatar scares me Jesus is the Son of the [true] living God. Why do I believe this?? Good question, I believe the bible to be true, somewhat like a history book in the sense that it is supported to a degree by other history books. Most religions acknowledge the life and death of a man named Jesus. Even our time BC or AD verifies this. More later, been missing my wife and she just came in.



Do you believe all of it is true?  Even the fantastic stuff; talking snakes, man eating fish, virgin birth...?


----------



## dexrusjak

Ronnie T said:


> Cause there are no others.



What evidence do you have?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

ambush80 said:


> Do you believe all of it is true?  Even the fantastic stuff; talking snakes, man eating fish, virgin birth...?


Yes, I know this sounds irrational to unbelievers, There are many questional stories and I'm not afraid to point them out although they are very questionable. Assuming that there is a God and evil, Then in view of all he created, I would think it possible for God to speak through a burning bush if he so choosed. I can accept the whale story although it would be impossible to survive.Some of the harder ones to accept: Sampson caught, What was the number of foxes, I don't know, but it was alot and tied their tails together. Wow, good thing he caught them cause they must have been  bout to take over. Another Sampson story, When he pushed down the pillars, killing more people than what was killed in 911. Anyway, back to the point, As hard as some are to believe, I accept them as truth. Dramatized, probably. But the "context" of the scriptures are amazing. So, I have been thinking, what is the foundation of my beliefs. I recently heard someone say, I know the bible is true cause God wrote it. I couldn't help but crack a smile. Although I believe the scriptures to be "contextually correct" I will try to give reasonable answers without using the scriptures. Also, I suspect that my answers won't be satisfactory but maybe what I believe will be interesting to you and I know what you believe will be interesting to me. My problem is I get off on to many rabbit trails and forget the OP. Where does my foundation come from? Looking at creation, I'm in awe at what I see. For me, I just assume a creator. So many things to point out such as stars,nature, etc. Forgive my being blunt but think of sex, Woman didn't just happen to be accomadating for men, I don't think we just got lucky, I think we were made that way. I see creator. I understand that some don't. But I also suspect that athiest have considered this in view of what they see but because of many other reasons have decided against it. While I'm thinking about it, What would you say is the single most biggest problem[A] with the concept that their is a God and what is the single most thing * that makes you wonder if you are right by not believing in God. I'm going guess, [A]bible stories, suffering in the world  creation.Like I said earlier, I like to ponder things, and since deer season is here, I should have plenty time to "ponder". Hey, I appreciate the conversations, I don't watch much TV so I enjoy the interaction. One more question, do you hunt or fish?*


----------



## CAL

Ronnie T said:


> I live by faith and in faith in Christ.  I know God exist.  Period.  It's a fact for me.  My faith isn't blind faith.  It is faith that what I cannot see, I can still be certain of.
> There are some people who will come to believe just as I do.
> Others will not.  They cannot be certain of anything they cannot see......  except the wind, and other such things.
> I have seen the evidence of God and His powers just as I have seen the evidence of the wind.
> And I am certain that both exist.



Amen and Amen!If anyone here or anywhere else had been in my shoes and had seen and experienced what I have seen and experienced,they would without a doubt believe there is a God and He is without a doubt in control of all things whatever they may be.I don't think,I know our Lord is real!
If I am wrong in my belief and I know I am not,I have lost nothing!If you non believers are wrong in your disbelief,you will have all eternity to celebrate being wrong!Just think about it!


----------



## ambush80

CAL said:


> Amen and Amen!If anyone here or anywhere else had been in my shoes and had seen and experienced what I have seen and experienced,they would without a doubt believe there is a God and He is without a doubt in control of all things whatever they may be.I don't think,I know our Lord is real!
> If I am wrong in my belief and I know I am not,I have lost nothing!If you non believers are wrong in your disbelief,you will have all eternity to celebrate being wrong!Just think about it!



You and I could both be wrong about our beliefs and the Muslims are right.  Then we get to share eternity together.


----------



## Steve Thompson

Not sure how or what? 
  I know I have felt Gods hands on me, he also saved me. I have also felt the claws of the Devil on my back as he did'nt get my brother. We can not possibly understand how the Lord has planed our future, or prepared "Heaven". I truly belive that the word of God is given to us in "layman terms" so we can understand how we should live and what we should belive. Our destiney is determined by our state of mind, when we pass. You can'nt fake it. That voice in your head and heart, is the energy of your spirit, and it's real and it's obtainable, after death.


----------



## dexrusjak

ambush80 said:


> You and I could both be wrong about our beliefs and the Muslims are right.  Then we get to share eternity together.



Beat me to it.


----------



## dexrusjak

For those of you that believe in the literal truth of ALL Biblical evants and stories, answer this question honestly.  If today, a man came on the news and told of how God spoke to him through a burning bush, or of how a snake spoke to him, or of how a donkey spoke to him, what would you think about this man?  Would you believe him or would you think he were crazy?  If these events can't happen today, what makes you think they ever did?  Why the change?


----------



## dexrusjak

CAL said:


> Amen and Amen!If anyone here or anywhere else had been in my shoes and had seen and experienced what I have seen and experienced,they would without a doubt believe there is a God and He is without a doubt in control of all things whatever they may be.I don't think,I know our Lord is real!
> If I am wrong in my belief and I know I am not,I have lost nothing!If you non believers are wrong in your disbelief,you will have all eternity to celebrate being wrong!Just think about it!



Would you mind sharing a few of the things you have seen and experienced that have led you to your unwavering faith and belief?


----------



## gordon 2

dexrusjak said:


> For those of you that believe in the literal truth of ALL Biblical evants and stories, answer this question honestly.  If today, a man came on the news and told of how God spoke to him through a burning bush, or of how a snake spoke to him, or of how a donkey spoke to him, what would you think about this man?  Would you believe him or would you think he were crazy?  If these events can't happen today, what makes you think they ever did?  Why the change?



Depends on what tradition the folk came from and how good an ear an individual had to that tradition.

Some people  of christian heritage claimed to have seen burning bushes that do not consume themselves in the 20th century and they were well adapted and respected individuals and although I don't know if God spoke to them, if He did is was probably indirectly cause in this tradition we are unable to bear hearing His voice audibly.

Now if a native person from Arizona said that the devine had spoken via a snake, I'd listen with seriousness. And so on...

However if an athiest or a moron was hearing God in similar instances I would ask myself if mental illness was present in his/her family.


----------



## dexrusjak

gordon 2 said:


> Depends on what tradition the folk came from and how good an ear an individual had to that tradition.
> 
> Some people  of christian heritage claimed to have seen burning bushes that do not consume themselves in the 20th century and they were well adapted and respected individuals and although I don't know if God spoke to them, if He did is was probably indirectly cause in this tradition we are unable to bear hearing His voice audibly.
> 
> Now if a native person from Arizona said that the devine had spoken via a snake, I'd listen with seriousness. And so on...
> 
> However if an athiest or a moron was hearing God in similar instances I would ask myself if mental illness was present in his/her family.



If a Native American claimed that a snake was literally speaking to him (like in the Bible), you would take this man seriously?  Really?

I don't think an atheist would claim to hear from god.  How would you go about determining if the person who claimed to hear from god was a moron or a true believer?


----------



## creation's_cause

dexrusjak said:


> Glad to know you, friend.  I guess if I really had to boil my journey away from belief down to one major factor it would be the role of the Bible.  I was raised to believe in the Bible as the complete, perfect, spirit-breathed, inerrant, authoritative word of god.  For many years, I blindly accepted this position as fact.  However, when I began reading (I mean really reading) the Bible, some things just didn't add up.  Take the story of the tower of Babel for instance.  One morning, I remember reading that story during my quiet time and thinking, "What's more probable, that this event actually took place, or that ancient men came up with this story to explain why human beings from different cultures speak in different languages?"  The obvious answer then and now is the latter.  I eventually decided that if the Bible is true, Christianity is true, but if the Bible (even parts of the Bible) are false, then Christianity is false.  It didn't take me long to determine that much of the Bible is false.
> 
> This reliance on the Bible is by no means the only factor that led to my deconversion, but it is a prominent one.  Reading the Bible, while apparently leading many to faith in Christ, led me in the opposite direction.



A terribly sad story....a story that appears to be all too common in these last days....and we wonder why many are calling good, evil and evil, good.  The Bible false....good hunting; trying to find the source of truth.  Let me know when you find it and what HOPE it has to offer you and your descendants.  Sharia awaits those who reject the source of our unalienable rights we have taken for granted in this land.


----------



## dexrusjak

creation's_cause said:


> A terribly sad story....a story that appears to be all too common in these last days....and we wonder why many are calling good, evil and evil, good.  The Bible false....good hunting; trying to find the source of truth.  Let me know when you find it and what HOPE it has to offer you and your descendants.  Sharia awaits those who reject the source of our unalienable rights we have taken for granted in this land.



What does my story have to do with good and evil?


----------



## creation's_cause

Please....think about it.....

Shall I answer your question, when you (apparently) refuse to answer mine?  What HOPE do you (and your children and their children) have apart from God and His saving redemption and promise of eternal life?


----------



## dexrusjak

creation's_cause said:


> Please....think about it.....
> 
> Shall I answer your question, when you (apparently) refuse to answer mine?  What HOPE do you (and your children and their children) have apart from God and His saving redemption and promise of eternal life?



I have the hope of not having false hope.  Hope of a happy and fulfilling life, hope of contributing to society, hope of a lasting legacy of humility, hard work, love, family, and friendship.

Now will you answer my question?  What does my story have to do with good and evil?


----------



## crackerdave

Steve Thompson said:


> Not sure how or what?
> I know I have felt Gods hands on me, he also saved me. I have also felt the claws of the Devil on my back as he did'nt get my brother. We can not possibly understand how the Lord has planed our future, or prepared "Heaven". I truly belive that the word of God is given to us in "layman terms" so we can understand how we should live and what we should belive. Our destiney is determined by our state of mind, when we pass. You can'nt fake it. That voice in your head and heart, is the energy of your spirit, and it's real and it's obtainable, after death.



Amen,Steve! Glad you're joining us! The truth needs to be told,and Satan rebuked.


dexrusjak said:


> I have the hope of not having false hope.  Hope of a happy and fulfilling life, hope of contributing to society, hope of a lasting legacy of humility, hard work, love, family, and friendship.
> 
> Now will you answer my question?  What does my story have to do with good and evil?



So,for you,this life is all there is? That's sad.

As for the question [and I know you're not asking _me_ ] your story has _everything_ to do with good and evil. 
Every person old enough to know the difference makes their own choice: Good,or evil. God,or Satan. There is NO middle ground,no fence to straddle. You are either FOR God,or you are AGAINST God. Very simple, and very irrevocable when you die. You have as much right to choose as I or anybody else - right or wrong.

All this ranting and raving and arguing and discussing that goes on here and other places like this is just a vapor.God does not care about my opinion or yours concerning the way He runs things.


----------



## dexrusjak

crackerdave said:


> [/COLOR]
> Amen,Steve! Glad you're joining us! The truth needs to be told,and Satan rebuked.
> 
> 
> So,for you,this life is all there is? That's sad.
> 
> As for the question [and I know you're not asking _me_ ] your story has _everything_ to do with good and evil.
> Every person old enough to know the difference makes their own choice: Good,or evil. God,or Satan. There is NO middle ground,no fence to straddle. You are either FOR God,or you are AGAINST God. Very simple, and very irrevocable when you die. You have as much right to choose as I or anybody else - right or wrong.
> 
> All this ranting and raving and arguing and discussing that goes on here and other places like this is just a vapor.God does not care about my opinion or yours concerning the way He runs things.



This life isn't all there is for me; it's all there is for everyone.  I just choose to accept that reality rather than putting a false hope in the notion of eternal life.  A god that would create a system in which the vast majority of human beings burn for eternity is far sadder, in my opinion, than the reality that this life is all we have.  The issue is not sad vs. happy.  The issue is reality vs. fantasy.

So, according to you, by lacking a belief in a god, I have chosen satan and evil and rejected god and goodness?  Is this correct?


----------



## gordon 2

dexrusjak said:


> If a Native American claimed that a snake was literally speaking to him (like in the Bible), you would take this man seriously?  Really?
> 
> I don't think an atheist would claim to hear from god.  How would you go about determining if the person who claimed to hear from god was a moron or a true believer?



Exactly like it is in the bible, only it is not like you think it is in the bible because you think you know what's in the bible but I know you don't. I can determine this simply by the way you go about asking you questions.

If a native american tells me that he or she has heard the snake or the deer spirit sing a song with a message from the creator I shall listen to him, real man to real man.

Peoples' integrity are generally apraised by what they do and how honest they are about it. How can one apraise an accomplished banjo player compared to him being apriased as an amature? One hits every note true, right? How does one apraise a scientist? From method and integrity? How can one apraise a surveyor's work? Check his math.


----------



## dexrusjak

gordon 2 said:


> Exactly like it is in the bible, only it is not like you think it is in the bible because you think you know what's in the bible but I know you don't. I can determine this simply by the way you go about asking you questions.
> 
> If a native american tells me that he or she has heard the snake or the deer spirit sing a song with a message from the creator I shall listen to him, real man to real man.
> 
> Peoples' integrity are generally apraised by what they do and how honest they are about it. How can one apraise an accomplished banjo player compared to him being apriased as an amature? One hits every note true, right? How does one apraise a scientist? From method and integrity? How can one apraise a surveyor's work? Check his math.



You know that I don't know what's in the Bible by the way I ask my questions.  That's some impressive insight you've got there.

"Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made.  He SAID to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" (Genesis 3:1).

Did a serpent literally use its mouth to form words that were literally heard and correctly understood by Eve?  If you say yes, then I ask you, if today a person claimed to have been literally spoken to with audible words by a serpent, would you believe this person?  If you would not, why not?


----------



## gordon 2

dexrusjak said:


> You know that I don't know what's in the Bible by the way I ask my questions.  That's some impressive insight you've got there.
> 
> "Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made.  He SAID to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?" (Genesis 3:1).
> 
> Did a serpent literally use its mouth to form words that were literally heard and correctly understood by Eve?  If you say yes, then I ask you, if today a person claimed to have been literally spoken to with audible words by a serpent, would your believe this person?  If you would not, why not?



Different serpents altogether.

I believe that the serpent which talked to Eve was the spirit of multi god and primitive spirituality to which Eve was wanting to return to. She did not like the new neighbourhood, wanted to go to the old one again--back home so to speak. So no the serpent did not "litterally" speak as you say, but it did litterally speak as I say. The spirituality of the message was spoken by the snake yes and is more important than the sounds you seem to be after.

For the native the serpent is a totally different creature. It speaks mostly in silence other than  with a hiss and a rattle. A language that requires all the culture of the human being to understand. Athiests here are at a severe disadvantage. Challanged even.

There is this song you might know a little about it is called  Amazing Grace In it it says I was "Blind" but now I see. There is something to this. Some people are blind to all sorts of things. I have a brother who's colour blind for example...somethings he'll never see as the majority sees it... Which is more real, or untrue, the object viewed by his blindness or the object view with the full prisum sequence?

You are not sheading enough light on the subject and therefore your questions...that is all.


----------



## creation's_cause

dexrusjak said:


> I have the hope of not having false hope.  Hope of a happy and fulfilling life, hope of contributing to society, hope of a lasting legacy of humility, hard work, love, family, and friendship.
> 
> Now will you answer my question?  What does my story have to do with good and evil?



Interesting that most if not all the virtues you mention above find their reality in the truths of God's Word....What greater love has anyone observed, than a man lay down his life for a friend....I wish you the best as you try to obtain the traits you mentioned above apart from God...but I believe we can be certain that as we draw our last breaths, you and I will both be wishing we had trusted God more and walked with Him more closely, and will likewise be hoping our families left here will do the same.

In response to your question, I think cracker dave was  spot-on  with his thoughts....mine would include that enemies of God, are partners with evil, and that friends of God are partners for good.  Once again our source for truth, God's Word can be trusted and is right on concerning the subject.  Believe me, I have compassion on you when I say you have been blinded by the prince of this world.


----------



## crackerdave

dexrusjak said:


> This life isn't all there is for me; it's all there is for everyone.  I just choose to accept that reality rather than putting a false hope in the notion of eternal life.  A god that would create a system in which the vast majority of human beings burn for eternity is far sadder, in my opinion, than the reality that this life is all we have.  The issue is not sad vs. happy.  The issue is reality vs. fantasy.
> 
> So, according to you, by lacking a belief in a god, I have chosen satan and evil and rejected god and goodness?  Is this correct?



Yes. 
"Goodness" can be done by evil people,as I'm sure you know. But NO man is good enough to stand at his judgment after his death and say to God: "I'm good enough for You." This is only possible through the shed blood of God's Son,Jesus Christ.

This judgment WILL take place - whether you believe it or not doesn't matter.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

dexrusjak said:


> For those of you that believe in the literal truth of ALL Biblical evants and stories, answer this question honestly.  If today, a man came on the news and told of how God spoke to him through a burning bush, or of how a snake spoke to him, or of how a donkey spoke to him, what would you think about this man?  Would you believe him or would you think he were crazy?  If these events can't happen today, what makes you think they ever did?  Why the change?


I always answer honestly, even when it makes me look irrational And yes, I would not believe it now. [reminds me of John Smith, Mormans] Wow, hard to answer. Can't I just cheat and say "cause the bible says so". I don't have a reasonable answer. You guys still haven't told me whether you hunt or fish.


----------



## jmharris23

dexrusjak said:


> For those of you that believe in the literal truth of ALL Biblical evants and stories, answer this question honestly.  If today, a man came on the news and told of how God spoke to him through a burning bush, or of how a snake spoke to him, or of how a donkey spoke to him, what would you think about this man?  Would you believe him or would you think he were crazy?  If these events can't happen today, what makes you think they ever did?  Why the change?



Who said they can't happen? Who even said they don't? I have some missionary friends who can tell you stories of supernatural things that God is doing all over the world, maybe he doesn't share them with the all knowing, almighty US because all we'd do is try to explain them away anyhow.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

1gr8bldr said:


> Yes, I know this sounds irrational to unbelievers, There are many questional stories and I'm not afraid to point them out although they are very questionable. Assuming that there is a God and evil, Then in view of all he created, I would think it possible for God to speak through a burning bush if he so choosed. I can accept the whale story although it would be impossible to survive.Some of the harder ones to accept: Sampson caught, What was the number of foxes, I don't know, but it was alot and tied their tails together. Wow, good thing he caught them cause they must have been  bout to take over. Another Sampson story, When he pushed down the pillars, killing more people than what was killed in 911. Anyway, back to the point, As hard as some are to believe, I accept them as truth. Dramatized, probably. But the "context" of the scriptures are amazing. So, I have been thinking, what is the foundation of my beliefs. I recently heard someone say, I know the bible is true cause God wrote it. I couldn't help but crack a smile. Although I believe the scriptures to be "contextually correct" I will try to give reasonable answers without using the scriptures. Also, I suspect that my answers won't be satisfactory but maybe what I believe will be interesting to you and I know what you believe will be interesting to me. My problem is I get off on to many rabbit trails and forget the OP. Where does my foundation come from? Looking at creation, I'm in awe at what I see. For me, I just assume a creator. So many things to point out such as stars,nature, etc. Forgive my being blunt but think of sex, Woman didn't just happen to be accomadating for men, I don't think we just got lucky, I think we were made that way. I see creator. I understand that some don't. But I also suspect that athiest have considered this in view of what they see but because of many other reasons have decided against it. While I'm thinking about it, What would you say is the single most biggest problem[A] with the concept that their is a God and what is the single most thing * that makes you wonder if you are right by not believing in God. I'm going guess, [A]bible stories, suffering in the world  creation.Like I said earlier, I like to ponder things, and since deer season is here, I should have plenty time to "ponder". Hey, I appreciate the conversations, I don't watch much TV so I enjoy the interaction. One more question, do you hunt or fish?*


* So, lets see if I can pick up where I left off.I'm thinkings about things that I have never given much thought to. I expect my post make that obvious. But I can learn from it as we go. So, Where does my beliefs have their foundation. If I had never seen a bible, I would still believe that there is a God simply because of the things I see in creation. I kinda think he showed off a little bit in order that we might take notice. So, if there is a creator, then he must be a sustainer because he maintains the stars in place. I won't spend any time here though. So wouldn't a God this magnificent find other ways to show his glory. Now, I,m stuck, I don't know how to go on without using the bible. What do I do now? Sleep on it.*


----------



## christianhunter

jmharris23 said:


> Who said they can't happen? Who even said they don't? I have some missionary friends who can tell you stories of supernatural things that God is doing all over the world, maybe he doesn't share them with the all knowing, almighty US because all we'd do is try to explain them away anyhow.



Amen!
I have heard testimonies for years in Third world under developed Countries.I have had my share of miracles myself.I have no doubts at all,about miracles,and THE LORD who delivers them.


----------



## pnome

christianhunter said:


> I have no doubts at all



You know.... in a way, I envy you.


----------



## dexrusjak

Can any Christian here offer evidence of a true miracle that can be explained no other way than by invoking the almighty?  If only god would heal just one amputee, I would be convinced.  That, my friends would be a miracle.


----------



## dexrusjak

crackerdave said:


> Yes.
> "Goodness" can be done by evil people,as I'm sure you know. But NO man is good enough to stand at his judgment after his death and say to God: "I'm good enough for You." This is only possible through the shed blood of God's Son,Jesus Christ.
> 
> This judgment WILL take place - whether you believe it or not doesn't matter.



Just so we're clear, based on the very little you know of me, would you say that I am an evil person?


----------



## dexrusjak

gordon 2 said:


> Different serpents altogether.
> 
> I believe that the serpent which talked to Eve was the spirit of multi god and primitive spirituality to which Eve was wanting to return to. What is your basis for this belief?  If I understand correctly, you believe that there are multiple gods?  Not just one?She did not like the new neighbourhood, wanted to go to the old one again--back home so to speak. So no the serpent did not "litterally" speak as you say, but it did litterally speak as I say. Please just answer this question, did the serpent open its mouth and form audible words that are recorded in the Bible?  Or did it not?The spirituality of the message was spoken by the snake yes and is more important than the sounds you seem to be after.
> 
> For the native the serpent is a totally different creature. It speaks mostly in silence other than  with a hiss and a rattle. A language that requires all the culture of the human being to understand. So "natives" (whatever those are) can hear a snake's thoughts?  Do you have this talent?Athiests here are at a severe disadvantage. Challanged even.
> 
> There is this song you might know a little about it is called  Amazing Grace In it it says I was "Blind" but now I see. There is something to this. Some people are blind to all sorts of things. I have a brother who's colour blind for example...somethings he'll never see as the majority sees it... Which is more real, or untrue, the object viewed by his blindness or the object view with the full prisum sequence?
> 
> You are not sheading enough light on the subject and therefore your questions...that is all.



See my comments in blue.


----------



## redwards

dexrusjak....
I guess a couple of things that I have observed regarding your posts are....
1. You seem to overlook the minor things....for instance...I asked a simple question of you...
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=5329049&highlight=#post5329049
to which, you either failed to read..or deemed it insignificant and unworthy of an answer.
2. You use words that are in fact...not words...to wit...
'deconversion'
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=5324480&highlight=deconversion#post5324480

According to Merriam Webster Online, it is not a word.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deconversion
However, by searching on Google, the word comes up numerous times, most if not all....used by Aethiestic leaning sites.

I may be wrong, but I have always been taught..... once anything is converted.... it can not be deconverted...it can be converted by some process to its original state...but not deconverted.

Just my observations.


----------



## dexrusjak

redwards said:


> dexrusjak....
> I guess a couple of things that I have observed regarding your posts are....
> 1. You seem to overlook the minor things....for instance...I asked a simple question of you...
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=5329049&highlight=#post5329049
> to which, you either failed to read..or deemed it insignificant and unworthy of an answer.
> 2. You use words that are in fact...not words...to wit...
> 'deconversion'
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=5324480&highlight=deconversion#post5324480
> 
> According to Merriam Webster Online, it is not a word.
> http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/deconversion
> However, by searching on Google, the word comes up numerous times, most if not all....used by Aethiestic leaning sites.
> 
> I may be wrong, but I have always been taught..... once anything is converted.... it can not be deconverted...it can be converted by some process to its original state...but not deconverted.
> 
> Just my observations.



1. I had no idea what your question related to or how it fit in with the conversation.  If you would help me understand, I would be glad to offer a response.

2. Forgive me for using a word that was not a word.  From now on I will consult Webster before typing a word.  This will, however, severely hamper my ability to respond to your all important observations in a timely manner.

Now my observations of you:

1. You like....to use....a lot....of periods....

2. You like to use incorrect punctuation when correcting my use of words that are not words to wit.....................

3. You like to ask really random questions and then apparently become offended when I do not respond to them............................

Just my observations.


----------



## ambush80

1gr8bldr said:


> Yes, I know this sounds irrational to unbelievers, There are many questional stories and I'm not afraid to point them out although they are very questionable. Assuming that there is a God and evil, Then in view of all he created, I would think it possible for God to speak through a burning bush if he so choosed. I can accept the whale story although it would be impossible to survive.Some of the harder ones to accept: Sampson caught, What was the number of foxes, I don't know, but it was alot and tied their tails together. Wow, good thing he caught them cause they must have been  bout to take over. Another Sampson story, When he pushed down the pillars, killing more people than what was killed in 911. Anyway, back to the point, As hard as some are to believe, I accept them as truth. Dramatized, probably. But the "context" of the scriptures are amazing. So, I have been thinking, what is the foundation of my beliefs. I recently heard someone say, I know the bible is true cause God wrote it. I couldn't help but crack a smile. Although I believe the scriptures to be "contextually correct" I will try to give reasonable answers without using the scriptures. Also, I suspect that my answers won't be satisfactory but maybe what I believe will be interesting to you and I know what you believe will be interesting to me. My problem is I get off on to many rabbit trails and forget the OP. Where does my foundation come from? Looking at creation, I'm in awe at what I see. For me, I just assume a creator. So many things to point out such as stars,nature, etc. Forgive my being blunt but think of sex, Woman didn't just happen to be accomadating for men, I don't think we just got lucky, I think we were made that way. I see creator. I understand that some don't. But I also suspect that athiest have considered this in view of what they see but because of many other reasons have decided against it. While I'm thinking about it, What would you say is the single most biggest problem[A] with the concept that their is a God and what is the single most thing * that makes you wonder if you are right by not believing in God. I'm going guess, [A]bible stories, suffering in the world  creation.Like I said earlier, I like to ponder things, and since deer season is here, I should have plenty time to "ponder". Hey, I appreciate the conversations, I don't watch much TV so I enjoy the interaction. One more question, do you hunt or fish?*


*

Firstly, Yes, I hunt and fish.  

Secondly, I am quite at peace with all the suffering in the world because I don't believe it's someones "plan".  Stuff happens.  That gives me an incredible amount of grace and the Bible stories are too incredible for me to accept.

The Universe is indeed wondrous and mysterious and that mystery fuels the notion since man first cowered from the lightning, that there might be a force with the power to manipulate and control us.  I really think the notion of God grew from nature worship.  It seems a pretty easy leap to go from worshiping trees and lightning and fire (especially when you've achieved some mastery over them) to worshiping a Deity.  

Why do you accept the talking burning bush as possible and not the whale story? What makes any of that more plausible than a blue, elephant headed, eight armed God?  

The kind of God that needs people to worship on their knees at his feet and proclaim his "Godness" seems kind of like how a King would want to be regarded; a very human King.  It seems so petty and human to me.  I would think a God would be so above needing such supplications.  As a new father (2 year old), I can't imagine sending her to He11 even if she renounced our relationship and told me that she hated me.  I can't imagine it.  And I can't see myself worshiping a being capable of such a thing either.  

But enough about me.  Care to discuss the nature of God as an abstract notion?*


----------



## ambush80

1gr8bldr said:


> I always answer honestly, even when it makes me look irrational And yes, I would not believe it now. [reminds me of John Smith, Mormans] Wow, hard to answer. Can't I just cheat and say "cause the bible says so". I don't have a reasonable answer. You guys still haven't told me whether you hunt or fish.



Of course you can, and you will have to eventually, when reason butts up against faith.  But you'll be cheating yourself in my opinion.


----------



## ambush80

dexrusjak said:


> 1. I had no idea what your question related to or how it fit in with the conversation.  If you would help me understand, I would be glad to offer a response.
> 
> 2. Forgive me for using a word that was not a word.  From now on I will consult Webster before typing a word.  This will, however, severely hamper my ability to respond to your all important observations in a timely manner.
> 
> Now my observations of you:
> 
> 1. You like....to use....a lot....of periods....
> 
> 2. You like to use incorrect punctuation when correcting my use of words that are not words to wit.....................
> 
> 3. You like to ask really random questions and then apparently become offended when I do not respond to them............................
> 
> Just my observations.



Just a small bit of advice:  Stay on the high road. The people that you can have rational conversations with will become readily apparent.


----------



## ambush80

dexrusjak said:


> Just so we're clear, based on the very little you know of me, would you say that I am an evil person?



When you were a Christian didn't you believe that all people are evil from birth?  Even sweet little, milk smelling babies?  Because of the magic apple and the talking snake?


----------



## apoint

2 billion Christians cant all be wrong, with periods.....
 My sheep will know my voice. 
 How many billions Christians have had there life changed                 [ born again] by THE HOLY SPIRIT?
 You might call that living proof. To explain the spiritual to the worldly is like telling a caveman how a jet airliner is made. Once you have been on GOD's jet, it's the only way to fly.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

ambush80 said:


> Firstly, Yes, I hunt and fish.
> 
> Secondly, I am quite at peace with all the suffering in the world because I don't believe it's someones "plan".  Stuff happens.  That gives me an incredible amount of grace and the Bible stories are too incredible for me to accept.
> 
> The Universe is indeed wondrous and mysterious and that mystery fuels the notion since man first cowered from the lightning, that there might be a force with the power to manipulate and control us.  I really think the notion of God grew from nature worship.  It seems a pretty easy leap to go from worshiping trees and lightning and fire (especially when you've achieved some mastery over them) to worshiping a Deity.
> 
> Why do you accept the talking burning bush as possible and not the whale story? What makes any of that more plausible than a blue, elephant headed, eight armed God?
> 
> The kind of God that needs people to worship on their knees at his feet and proclaim his "Godness" seems kind of like how a King would want to be regarded; a very human King.  It seems so petty and human to me.  I would think a God would be so above needing such supplications.  As a new father (2 year old), I can't imagine sending her to He11 even if she renounced our relationship and told me that she hated me.  I can't imagine it.  And I can't see myself worshiping a being capable of such a thing either.
> 
> But enough about me.  Care to discuss the nature of God as an abstract notion?


 Abstract notion, what's that? I'm a redneck carpenter who types with one finger.


----------



## ambush80

apoint said:


> 2 billion Christians cant all be wrong, with periods.....
> My sheep will know my voice.
> How many billions Christians have had there life changed                 [ born again] by THE HOLY SPIRIT?
> You might call that living proof. To explain the spiritual to the worldly is like telling a caveman how a jet airliner is made.



But 1.57 billion Muslims definitely are.

And how again did cavemen defend themselves from tyrannosaurs and velociraptors?


----------



## ambush80

1gr8bldr said:


> Abstract notion, what's that? I'm a redneck carpenter who types with one finger.




You do pretty well with that finger, I must say.  I'm a carpenter also and I just started using my other finger and one thumb (space bar).  

The abstract notion of a god--What would he be like if you could build one from scratch and how would those features cause him to interact with the universe?


----------



## apoint

ambush80 said:


> But 1.57 billion Muslims definitely are.
> 
> And how again did cavemen defend themselves from tyrannosaurs and velociraptors?



 Why would you ask me when you wont believe what I just told you. Muslims are not born again of the spirit and never will be, ever.


----------



## ambush80

apoint said:


> Why would you ask me when you wont believe what I just told you. Muslims are not born again of the spirit and never will be, ever.



It appears, in retrospect, to have been a rhetorical question.


----------



## Ronnie T

dexrusjak said:


> Just so we're clear, based on the very little you know of me, would you say that I am an evil person?



Consider the God that you once believed in........ Do you think He considers you to be evil now that you deny Him?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Ronnie T said:


> Consider the God that you once believed in........ Do you think He considers you to be evil now that you deny Him?


 I don't see people as evil as most see it. But I do see where mankind has a problem of wanting God's glory for themselves. Left unchecked, man will elevate himself to king status if he could. In the OT, most kings that were supposed to serve the people, made the people serve them. Jesus on the other hand could have milked his status for all its worth but didn't. He humbled himself and served the people to the point of giving his life to the fulfillment of the scriptures. God was so pleased with him that he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand. That's what the bible says. Among all the stuff in the bible is hidden a great story. Man's not evil, he just wants to be "like God" and have people worship them. I see it most in churches. Preachers take to their pulpits every week to try and impress people. They preach themselves as the perfect example, I do this and that, I love my wife and I drove across the country to visit, I'm father of the year and bla bla bla ba bla. One of these days I might get on my knees and pretend to worship them in order to break them from this. Sad thing is that they don't even realize what they should hate about themselves.


----------



## jmharris23

1gr8bldr said:


> I don't see people as evil as most see it. But I do see where mankind has a problem of wanting God's glory for themselves. Left unchecked, man will elevate himself to king status if he could. In the OT, most kings that were supposed to serve the people, made the people serve them. Jesus on the other hand could have milked his status for all its worth but didn't. He humbled himself and served the people to the point of giving his life to the fulfillment of the scriptures. God was so pleased with him that he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand. That's what the bible says. Among all the stuff in the bible is hidden a great story. Man's not evil, he just wants to be "like God" and have people worship them. I see it most in churches. Preachers take to their pulpits every week to try and impress people. They preach themselves as the perfect example, I do this and that, I love my wife and I drove across the country to visit, I'm father of the year and bla bla bla ba bla. One of these days I might get on my knees and pretend to worship them in order to break them from this. Sad thing is that they don't even realize what they should hate about themselves.



That's a tough generalization of pastors, surely not most of them are spending more time trying to impress rather than preach the word? 

Speaking of the word, I'm not completely sold on your take on man not being evil: 

      “None is righteous, no, not one; 
      11      no one understands; 
no one seeks for God. 
      12      All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; 
no one does good, 
not even one.” 
      13      “Their throat is an open grave; 
they use their tongues to deceive.” 
            “The venom of asps is under their lips.” 
      14      “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” 
      15      “Their feet are swift to shed blood; 
      16      in their paths are ruin and misery, 
      17      and the way of peace they have not known.” 
      18      “There is no fear of God before their eyes.

                                                                  - Romans 3:9-18

“I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth.

                                                                     - Ge 8:21


----------



## dexrusjak

ambush80 said:


> When you were a Christian didn't you believe that all people are evil from birth?  Even sweet little, milk smelling babies?  Because of the magic apple and the talking snake?



Sure did.  I'm still embarassed about many of the things I believed.


----------



## dexrusjak

Ronnie T said:


> Consider the God that you once believed in........ Do you think He considers you to be evil now that you deny Him?



No.  He does not exist.

Shouldn't the tag of "evil" be placed only on those who do "evil" actions?  Seems like "evil" is a pretty strong word to use as a default categorization.


----------



## dexrusjak

ambush80 said:


> Just a small bit of advice:  Stay on the high road. The people that you can have rational conversations with will become readily apparent.



You're right.  My bad.


----------



## dexrusjak

jmharris23 said:


> That's a tough generalization of pastors, surely not most of them are spending more time trying to impress rather than preach the word?
> 
> Speaking of the word, I'm not completely sold on your take on man not being evil:
> 
> “None is righteous, no, not one;
> 11      no one understands;
> no one seeks for God. No one?  What about all the churchgoers and those here?  None of you are seeking god?  That's what the Bible says.
> 12      All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
> no one does good, Pretty strong statement there.  Problem is, I can think of several thousand examples of people doing good deeds.  Is it true that NO ONE does good?  Not even Christians?  What about firefighters?  Nurses?  Red Cross?
> not even one.”
> 13      “Their throat is an open grave;
> they use their tongues to deceive.”
> “The venom of asps is under their lips.”
> 14      “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” Doesn't sound much like a toddler.  Are toddlers evil?
> 15      “Their feet are swift to shed blood; I don't know anyone who has ever shed blood (except of course the blood of a deer, cow, chicken, pig, or fish).
> 16      in their paths are ruin and misery,
> 17      and the way of peace they have not known.”
> 18      “There is no fear of God before their eyes.
> 
> - Romans 3:9-18
> 
> “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth.
> 
> - Ge 8:21



Putting Biblical dogma aside momentarily, what do your own observations tell you about the condition of humanity?  Does what you observe in those around you (your family and friends) line up with the scripture above?  Was your wife born evil?  Your children?  Your grandchilren? Are all people born evil?  Is a baby evil?  A toddler?  A humanitarian who serves his community out of love for his fellow man rather than out of an obligation to a god?  Are these people indeed evil just because a two-thousand year old document says they are?  Or should we determine whether or not they are evil by their own actions?


----------



## dexrusjak

1gr8bldr said:


> I don't see people as evil as most see it. But I do see where mankind has a problem of wanting God's glory for themselves. Left unchecked, man will elevate himself to king status if he could. In the OT, most kings that were supposed to serve the people, made the people serve them. Jesus on the other hand could have milked his status for all its worth but didn't. He humbled himself and served the people to the point of giving his life to the fulfillment of the scriptures. God was so pleased with him that he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand. That's what the bible says. Among all the stuff in the bible is hidden a great story. Man's not evil, he just wants to be "like God" and have people worship them. I see it most in churches. Preachers take to their pulpits every week to try and impress people. They preach themselves as the perfect example, I do this and that, I love my wife and I drove across the country to visit, I'm father of the year and bla bla bla ba bla. One of these days I might get on my knees and pretend to worship them in order to break them from this. Sad thing is that they don't even realize what they should hate about themselves.



Thanks for your genuine response.


----------



## pnome

dexrusjak said:


> Sure did.  I'm still embarassed about many of the things I believed.



I wouldn't be embarrassed about them.  The vast majority of people in this country either currently do or have held such beliefs at one time or another.  I know I did.


----------



## ambush80

dexrusjak said:


> Sure did.  I'm still embarassed about many of the things I believed.



"Go forth and sin no more".

                     --J.C.


----------



## WTM45

Ronnie T said:


> Consider the God that you once believed in........ Do you think He considers you to be evil now that you deny Him?



Will a unicorn take a saddle and bit?


----------



## jmharris23

dexrusjak said:


> Putting Biblical dogma aside momentarily, what do your own observations tell you about the condition of humanity?  Does what you observe in those around you (your family and friends) line up with the scripture above?  Was your wife born evil?  Your children?  Your grandchilren? Are all people born evil?  Is a baby evil?  A toddler?  A humanitarian who serves his community out of love for his fellow man rather than out of an obligation to a god?  Are these people indeed evil just because a two-thousand year old document says they are?  Or should we determine whether or not they are evil by their own actions?



I am positive that since you are now enlightened you will consider me simple, naive, or just plain ignorant and foolish, but asking me to put the Bible aside is out of the question. You may think its a book full of fairy tales and the ramblings of deluded and simple minded men, I on the other hand, do not. I cannot and will not give opinion apart from its words. 

By the way, I have a toddler, and yes at times, she is evil


----------



## dexrusjak

jmharris23 said:


> I am positive that since you are now enlightened you will consider me simple no, naive no, or just plain ignorant no and foolish no, but asking me to put the Bible aside is out of the question. Can you not make decisions apart from what is written in the Bible?  What about for issues the Bible doesn't cover?  Do you need the Bible to tell you what to think in EVERY circumstance? You may think its a book full of fairy tales mostly and the ramblings of deluded and simple minded men yes, I on the other hand, do not. I cannot and will not give opinion apart from its words. That's your right, but I think it's pretty dangerous.
> 
> By the way, I have a toddler, and yes at times, she is evil



See my comments in blue.  

I contend that you probably give many opinions apart from the Bible's words on a daily basis.  Opinions about government, sports teams, gun types, fish species, weather, news, food, etc.  Why will you not give an opinion about the condition of humanity apart from it?  I'd settle for your opinion about the condition of a human apart from it.  What about me?  I don't believe in god, but I've never gone to prison, harmed a child, comitted a crime, or assaulted someone.  I give money to charities, am friendly, generous, loving to my family and friends, care about people, love my country, enjoy fishing and reading.  In your estimation, am I an evil person?


----------



## jmharris23

dexrusjak said:


> See my comments in blue.
> 
> I contend that you probably give many opinions apart from the Bible's words on a daily basis.  Opinions about government, sports teams, gun types, fish species, weather, news, food, etc.  Why will you not give an opinion about the condition of humanity apart from it?  I'd settle for your opinion about the condition of a human apart from it.  What about me?  I don't believe in god, but I've never gone to prison, harmed a child, comitted a crime, or assaulted someone.  I give money to charities, am friendly, generous, loving to my family and friends, care about people, love my country, enjoy fishing and reading.  In your estimation, am I an evil person?



Ok so maybe I was too literal for you, you are correct, I in fact do give opinion on the government, sports teams, gun types, fish species, weather, news, food, etc. without flipping the pages of Scripture.... but I think you already knew that ... right? 

Mostly because I dont think God gives a flip about those things minus maybe the government? 

As to humanity though, Scripture is very clear, and so no I will not give an opinion apart from it. 

As to whether you are evil or not... absolutely I think you are... if it makes you feel any better I think I am too. 

This is what Christ says about it, " 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”  - Mark 7:21–23

The difference is my belief has delievered me from ultimate ramifications of my evil (eternity apart from God), your belief has not. 

Of course that's just my take on it and I certainly expect you to disagree. 

The reality of it is, we could go back and forth forever, but we're not going to come to a resolution. 

One day you and I both will know who was right and who was wrong..... until that day comes we will just both have to live with the choices we make.


----------



## dexrusjak

jmharris23 said:


> Ok so maybe I was too literal for you, you are correct, I in fact do give opinion on the government, sports teams, gun types, fish species, weather, news, food, etc. without flipping the pages of Scripture.... but I think you already knew that ... right?
> 
> Mostly because I dont think God gives a flip about those things minus maybe the government?
> 
> As to humanity though, Scripture is very clear, and so no I will not give an opinion apart from it.
> 
> As to whether you are evil or not... absolutely I think you are... if it makes you feel any better I think I am too.
> 
> This is what Christ says about it, " 21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23 All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.”  - Mark 7:21–23
> 
> The difference is my belief has delievered me from ultimate ramifications of my evil (eternity apart from God), your belief has not.
> 
> Of course that's just my take on it and I certainly expect you to disagree.
> 
> The reality of it is, we could go back and forth forever, but we're not going to come to a resolution.
> 
> One day you and I both will know who was right and who was wrong..... until that day comes we will just both have to live with the choices we make.



Thanks for the honest reply.  One final question, if I may, is a person capable of doing good apart from god?


----------



## jmharris23

dexrusjak said:


> Thanks for the honest reply.  One final question, if I may, is a person capable of doing good apart from god?



I will answer it this way.... A person is capable of doing good apart from a belief in God.


----------



## christianhunter

dexrusjak said:


> Sure did.  I'm still embarassed about many of the things I believed.



I bet a Parrot,really throws you guys for a loop.


----------



## dexrusjak

christianhunter said:


> I bet a Parrot,really throws you guys for a loop.



I don't get it.


----------



## Madman

jmharris23 said:


> As to whether you are evil or not... absolutely I think you are... if it makes you feel any better I think I am too.



Yep.

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
Isaiah 64:6

"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
Mark 10:18


----------



## Madman

jmharris23 said:


> I will answer it this way.... A person is capable of doing good apart from a belief in God.



Really?


----------



## christianhunter

dexrusjak said:


> I don't get it.



You can't believe in a talking snake,but a talking bird is just something to be expected???

To quote you above,that's the problem,You "don't get it."


----------



## ambush80

Madman said:


> Yep.
> 
> All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
> Isaiah 64:6
> 
> "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
> Mark 10:18



What do you think are some possible emotional and psychological ramifications of operating from that position?


----------



## ambush80

christianhunter said:


> You can't believe in a talking snake,but a talking bird is just something to be expected???
> 
> To quote you above,that's the problem,You "don't get it."




"Awwk!  Eat the apple.  Eat the apple.  Awwk!  Makes you smart as God. Awwk! Smart as God.  Wheet, Whoot!"

Your right.  It makes complete sense.


----------



## christianhunter

ambush80 said:


> "Awwk!  Eat the apple.  Eat the apple.  Awwk!  Makes you smart as God. Awwk! Smart as God.  Wheet, Whoot!"
> 
> Your right.  It makes complete sense.



From an outsiders view point,who looks foolish?


----------



## dexrusjak

christianhunter said:


> From an outsiders view point,who looks foolish?



Who looks foolish?

a. the person who believes in conversing with animals
b. the person who does not believe in conversing with animals

Tough call.


----------



## dexrusjak

Madman said:


> Yep.
> 
> All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.
> Isaiah 64:6
> 
> "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone.
> Mark 10:18



I thought Jesus was God?


----------



## dexrusjak

Madman said:


> Really?



You disagree?  You don't believe that I am capable of doing good?  If you, a Christian, give food to the hungry, it is a good deed.  If I, an atheist, give food to the hungry, is it not a good deed?


----------



## ambush80

christianhunter said:


> From an outsiders view point,who looks foolish?



Never mind the afterlife, the ability to talk to animals might be best selling point for my conversion.


----------



## christianhunter

dexrusjak said:


> Who looks foolish?
> 
> a. the person who believes in conversing with animals
> b. the person who does not believe in conversing with animals
> 
> Tough call.



I just bet,if you walked up on one of the talking birds,forgotten how many there are 2 or 3 maybe more.Surely you would try to get them to say,"Can you say atheist"?

Making a point,a parrot is an animal,and it can talk.Point proven.As an aside the serpent was possessed by Satan.They did not become a snake until the fall of man.I thought you had 20 years of study?


----------



## dexrusjak

christianhunter said:


> I just bet,if you walked up on one of the talking birds,forgotten how many there are 2 or 3 maybe more.Surely you would try to get them to say,"Can you say atheist"?
> 
> Making a point,a parrot is an animal,and it can talk.Point proven.As an aside the serpent was possessed by Satan.They did not become a snake until the fall of man.I thought you had 20 years of study?



1. Read Genesis again.  It does not mention a talking bird, so I still don't get the point you're trying to make.

2. Using your logic - a parrot can talk; a parrot is an animal; a serpent is an animal; therefore, a serpent can talk.........That's fun, let me try - an eagle can fly; an eagle is an animal; a walrus is an animal; therefore, a walrus can fly.  Sound logic indeed.

3. Please cite the passage from scripture that claims that the serpent was possessed by Satan (hint: It's not in there.  That the serpent was possessed is tradition or perhaps speculation on your part.  It's not Biblical.).


----------



## Spotlite

dexrusjak said:


> You disagree?  You don't believe that I am capable of doing good?  If you, a Christian, give food to the hungry, it is a good deed.  If I, an atheist, give food to the hungry, is it not a good deed?



I kind of have to agree with you on this one. Evil or not or Christian or not, feeding the hungry is a good thing.


----------



## Ronnie T

dexrusjak said:


> 1. Read Genesis again.  It does not mention a talking bird, so I still don't get the point you're trying to make.
> 
> 2. Using your logic - a parrot can talk; a parrot is an animal; a serpent is an animal; therefore, a serpent can talk.........That's fun, let me try - an eagle can fly; an eagle is an animal; a walrus is an animal; therefore, a walrus can fly.  Sound logic indeed.
> 
> 3. Please cite the passage from scripture that claims that the serpent was possessed by Satan (hint: It's not in there.  That the serpent was possessed is tradition or perhaps speculation on your part.  It's not Biblical.).



You truly were not kidding when you said you had lost the faith and no longer believed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


.


----------



## christianhunter

dexrusjak said:


> 1. Read Genesis again.  It does not mention a talking bird, so I still don't get the point you're trying to make.
> 
> 2. Using your logic - a parrot can talk; a parrot is an animal; a serpent is an animal; therefore, a serpent can talk.........That's fun, let me try - an eagle can fly; an eagle is an animal; a walrus is an animal; therefore, a walrus can fly.  Sound logic indeed.
> 
> 3. Please cite the passage from scripture that claims that the serpent was possessed by Satan (hint: It's not in there.  That the serpent was possessed is tradition or perhaps speculation on your part.  It's not Biblical.).



You are dancing!
I bet even a child can get what I'm saying,you too,you just cannot admit to a talking animal.A talking Parrot is not mentioned in Scripture but, a talking Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- and a Serpent is.It is also mentioned that the stones would have worshiped JESUS,if the people had failed to,on HIS way into Jerusalem.It is quite amusing how you guys dance around fact.Point well taken,thank you for the proof.


----------



## WTM45

christianhunter said:


> Making a point,a parrot is an animal,and it can talk.



That is not talking to communicate thoughts.
The parrot can not talk, it can only mimic sounds it hears.
The snake in the story of Genesis was communicating thoughts using a form of speech a human could understand.
A parable.


----------



## Madman

dexrusjak said:


> You disagree?  You don't believe that I am capable of doing good?  If you, a Christian, give food to the hungry, it is a good deed.  If I, an atheist, give food to the hungry, is it not a good deed?



By who's definition of good?


----------



## dexrusjak

christianhunter said:


> You are dancing!
> I bet even a child can get what I'm saying,you too,you just cannot admit to a talking animal.A talking Parrot is not mentioned in Scripture but, a talking Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- and a Serpent is.It is also mentioned that the stones would have worshiped JESUS,if the people had failed to,on HIS way into Jerusalem.It is quite amusing how you guys dance around fact.Point well taken,thank you for the proof.



Of course a child can get what you're saying.  Many children still believe in talking animals.  Not to mention Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.  I may be wrong, but based on the lack of support from other Christians, I would guess you're in the minority concerning your belief in talking animals.  I think most Christians here are intelligent and realistic enough to know that animals simply cannot and do not verbally communicate with human beings.  Never have, never will.


----------



## dexrusjak

Madman said:


> By who's definition of good?



The hungry man's for one.


----------



## jmharris23

Madman said:


> Really?



Yes really... Some of the best,kindest,most moral people I have ever known were non-believers.. Sure they can do good.

As to why they do it... That's a different story


----------



## 1gr8bldr

jmharris23 said:


> That's a tough generalization of pastors, surely not most of them are spending more time trying to impress rather than preach the word?
> 
> Speaking of the word, I'm not completely sold on your take on man not being evil:
> 
> “None is righteous, no, not one;
> 11      no one understands;
> no one seeks for God.
> 12      All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
> no one does good,
> not even one.”
> 13      “Their throat is an open grave;
> they use their tongues to deceive.”
> “The venom of asps is under their lips.”
> 14      “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
> 15      “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
> 16      in their paths are ruin and misery,
> 17      and the way of peace they have not known.”
> 18      “There is no fear of God before their eyes.
> 
> - Romans 3:9-18
> 
> “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man’s heart is evil from his youth.
> 
> - Ge 8:21


I see your point and a year ago, I would have said the same thing. Now I feel the need to seperate cause our view likes to see evil as murders, thiefs,etc and that simply does not describe all mankind. So we should acknowledge that this is not a true description. The context of sin in the original fall of man carries throughout the entire context of scripture. I know most don't agree, but my opinion of Pastors, most would be correct. Just listen to what they have to say, they always use themselves as the perfect example, If we were only like them, then we would have arrived. I got lots to say concerning this with lots of examples and how this fits in scripture fulfilment but this should remain a discussion forumn and not turn into a big debate. But Among all those words, I do see your point.


----------



## Madman

dexrusjak said:


> The hungry man's for one.



then according to the hungry man you have done a good deed.  Congradulations.


----------



## Madman

jmharris23 said:


> Yes really... Some of the best,kindest,most moral people I have ever known were non-believers.. Sure they can do good.
> 
> As to why they do it... That's a different story



I ask again.  By who’s definition of good?


----------



## Spotlite

Madman said:


> then according to the hungry man you have done a good deed.  Congradulations.



So according to your logic, the atheist should not feed the hungry and call it good?


Doing good doesnt save anyone, it just means you done something good.

I think theres scripture about given water to the least of these....................................


----------



## jmharris23

Madman said:


> I ask again.  By who’s definition of good?



What's your definition of good?


----------



## christianhunter

dexrusjak said:


> Of course a child can get what you're saying.  Many children still believe in talking animals.  Not to mention Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy.  I may be wrong, but based on the lack of support from other Christians, I would guess you're in the minority concerning your belief in talking animals.  I think most Christians here are intelligent and realistic enough to know that animals simply cannot and do not verbally communicate with human beings.  Never have, never will.



Why do I need their support?
A parrot can talk,and we are not certain of what the serpent looked like,only that it was a beautiful and smart creature.Satan was embodied in the serpent,as he persuaded Eve.If you tell a parrot to say pretty bird,and it says pretty bird,mimicking or responding,it still talked.THE LORD said,"The fool says in his heart,there is no GOD."
I guess you wasted 20 years of your life,and the rate you are going eternity as well.

Just for fun,Saint Nick did exist,just not with a red suit,and tiny little rein deer.

As far as talking animals the donkey(since it edited me before) and the serpent I believe with all of my heart.I would question any Christian who stated otherwise as well.


----------



## leroy

this is the craziest thing i have ever seen sorta like i dont believe in aliens-ufos but im not going to go to a forum full of people that do  and talk round and round in circles on why i dont.


----------



## Six million dollar ham

jmharris23 said:


> What's your definition of good?



What's your definition of "definition"?


----------



## crackerdave

Six million dollar ham said:


> What's your definition of "definition"?



Ain't you th' clever one!


----------



## 1gr8bldr

1gr8bldr said:


> So, lets see if I can pick up where I left off.I'm thinkings about things that I have never given much thought to. I expect my post make that obvious. But I can learn from it as we go. So, Where does my beliefs have their foundation. If I had never seen a bible, I would still believe that there is a God simply because of the things I see in creation. I kinda think he showed off a little bit in order that we might take notice. So, if there is a creator, then he must be a sustainer because he maintains the stars in place. I won't spend any time here though. So wouldn't a God this magnificent find other ways to show his glory. Now, I,m stuck, I don't know how to go on without using the bible. What do I do now? Sleep on it.


After giving this some thought, I don't think it's possible to continue without using the bible. Never realized this before. I've never needed to look past creation to see God. The bible tells us how he reveals himself other than creation. Since athiest don't believe the bible as true, then why continue unless your interested in my thoughts on this subject????


----------



## dexrusjak

christianhunter said:


> Why do I need their support?
> A parrot can talk (mimic sounds),and we are not certain of what the serpent looked like (so where the Bible says "serpent" it really means "animal that might be a parrot or a serpent or a donkey, we're not really sure."  Sounds good to me.) ,only that it was a beautiful (Where's that in the Bible?) and smart creature.Satan was embodied in the serpent (Still waiting on your scripture reference on this one.) ,as he persuaded Eve.If you tell a parrot to say pretty bird,and it says pretty bird,mimicking or responding,it still talked. (So Satan was whispering words to the the serpent/parrot and the serpent/parrot repeated the words to Eve.  I think I now understand how it worked.  But why didn't Satan just cut out the middle man and talk to Eve himself?  Or possible leave a note, maybe an email?  To each his own.) THE LORD said,"The fool says in his heart,there is no GOD." THE LORD didn't say that.  Whoever wrote the Psalms said that.
> I guess you wasted 20 years of your life,and the rate you are going eternity as well. I guess you're right.  Poor, pitiful me.
> 
> Just for fun,Saint Nick did exist,just not with a red suit,and tiny little rein deer.
> 
> As far as talking animals the donkey(since it edited me before) and the serpent I believe with all of my heart. Then please answer this question (all bickering aside, I really would like to get a sincere answer to this question), if animals audibly spoke (not mimicked sounds) to human beings in the past, why do they no longer do so?  If it could happen then, why not now?I would question any Christian who stated otherwise as well.



My comments are in blue.


----------



## dexrusjak

1gr8bldr said:


> After giving this some thought, I don't think it's possible to continue without using the bible. Never realized this before. I've never needed to look past creation to see God. The bible tells us how he reveals himself other than creation. Since athiest don't believe the bible as true, then why continue unless your interested in my thoughts on this subject????



The question is, why do you believe the Bible is true?


----------



## pnome

dexrusjak said:


> animals simply cannot and do not verbally communicate with human beings.  *Never have, never will.*



Gonna have to disagree with you there.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200607/s1693309.htm

CH is right about Parrots.  And I'm pretty sure we humans vastly underrate the intelligence and abilities of some animals.  

That said, to date, no one has been able to produce a snake that can talk.  Which would make the claim in Genesis extraordinary.  It may be that at one time such a snake existed, but since we have no evidence outside of the bible, we can rightly disregard any biblical claims as to ancient species of talking snakes.   

This is still beside the point.  The snake in Genesis isn't really a snake at all, at least according to the story I know.  The snake is just an avatar of Satan.  Which puts us squarely in the realm of the supernatural and thus we have no need to try to explain it naturally.


----------



## Spotlite

dexrusjak said:


> The question is, why do you believe the Bible is true?



Faith and understanding scripture in context. The lack of those are the reasons you do not believe its true. 



Now my question is; why do atheist continually question those that do believe and demand that we explain why we believe? You made your choice based on what you think is real or not and you have to live with that. Are you that insecure that you made the right choice that you continually need proof as reminder of why you do not believe?

Heres where I stand firmly, you dont believe, Im perfectly comfortable with that and do not need your reasons or "proof" to reaffirm my beliefs.


----------



## gtparts

dexrusjak said:


> For those of you that believe in the literal truth of ALL Biblical evants and stories, answer this question honestly.  If today, a man came on the news and told of how God spoke to him through a burning bush, or of how a snake spoke to him, or of how a donkey spoke to him, what would you think about this man?  Would you believe him or would you think he were crazy?  If these events can't happen today, what makes you think they ever did?  Why the change?



As you might suspect, it would depend on what was "said" by the bush, snake, or donkey. But, for the moment, this scenario is hypothetical and any response can not advance truth. Be glad to discuss my position further..... when it happens. "If" is a very precarious place to finding footing to stand.


----------



## dexrusjak

pnome said:


> Gonna have to disagree with you there.
> 
> http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200607/s1693309.htm
> 
> CH is right about Parrots.  And I'm pretty sure we humans vastly underrate the intelligence and abilities of some animals.
> 
> That said, to date, no one has been able to produce a snake that can talk.  Which would make the claim in Genesis extraordinary.  It may be that at one time such a snake existed, but since we have no evidence outside of the bible, we can rightly disregard any biblical claims as to ancient species of talking snakes.
> 
> This is still beside the point.  The snake in Genesis isn't really a snake at all, at least according to the story I know.  The snake is just an avatar of Satan.  Which puts us squarely in the realm of the supernatural and thus we have no need to try to explain it naturally.



I stand corrected.


----------



## dexrusjak

Spotlite said:


> Faith and understanding scripture in context. The lack of those are the reasons you do not believe its true.
> 
> 
> 
> Now my question is; why do atheist continually question those that do believe and demand that we explain why we believe? You made your choice based on what you think is real or not and you have to live with that. Are you that insecure that you made the right choice that you continually need proof as reminder of why you do not believe?
> 
> Heres where I stand firmly, you dont believe, Im perfectly comfortable with that and do not need your reasons or "proof" to reaffirm my beliefs.



I think I have a pretty solid understanding of scripture in context.  Regardless of context, the Bible makes many claims of supernatural events that DO NOT HAPPEN TODAY (men rising from the dead, blind suddenly able to see, man living for several days inside a fish, talking donkeys, flood of the whole earth, burning bush not consumed, women turning into pillars of salt, fire raining down from the sky, etc.).  If these events literally happened, then "context" has nothing to do with them.  My question is simply why do events such as these not happen anymore?


----------



## creation's_cause

Because this is the age/period of time of Grace, especially for you!  A period of time after Christ's prophectic coming, birth, death and resurrection that you may respond to His Spirits pleading to know Him and allow His act of sacrafice to be the substitute for your sin.  Unfortunately for you and your family, you appear to be squandering this oppportunity.  My compassion and prayers go out to you and the other's that are enemies of God and His Word.


----------



## dexrusjak

creation's_cause said:


> Because this is the age/period of time of Grace, especially for you!  A period of time after Christ's prophectic coming, birth, death and resurrection that you may respond to His Spirits pleading to know Him and allow His act of sacrafice to be the substitute for your sin.  Unfortunately for you and your family, you appear to be squandering this oppportunity.  My compassion and prayers go out to you and the other's that are enemies of God and His Word.



Thank you for your response.  What do you mean by time of "Grace"?  Why can supernatural events like those in the Bible not happen during this grace period?


----------



## creation's_cause

dexrusjak said:


> Thank you for your response.  What do you mean by time of "Grace"?  Why can supernatural events like those in the Bible not happen during this grace period?



The most profound supernatural event you will ever experience is waiting to occur in your life.  I guess you can't see that desiring/requiring a "sign" puts you right in the class with the Scribes and Pharasies...if you lack faith, you will not obtain the "Grace".  It really comes down to the "faith" that you lack....I trust and pray you have not sinned away your day of Grace.  Why not commit to a period of fasting and prayer....just try God and see what happens....I would be willing to enter into this with you if you would commit to do so!!!  In fact, there may be several on this site who would commit to fast and pray with us....I guarantee you God would be faithful, if you would be!!


----------



## creation's_cause

Behold....He stands at the door and knocks, and whoever hears His voice, and opens the door, He Shall Come In.  

Faith my friend is as easy as hearing His voice and opening the door of your life.


----------



## dexrusjak

creation's_cause said:


> The most profound supernatural event you will ever experience is waiting to occur in your life.  I guess you can't see that desiring/requiring a "sign" puts you right in the class with the Scribes and Pharasies...if you lack faith, you will not obtain the "Grace".  It really comes down to the "faith" that you lack (How do you know where you should put your faith?  Why not put it in Allah or Thor or yourself?  Why Jesus?) I trust and pray you have not sinned away your day of Grace.  Why not commit to a period of fasting and prayer....just try God and see what happens.... (I have tried this before, for a looooooooong period of time.  Nothing happened then, why would I expect anything different this time around?) I would be willing to enter into this with you if you would commit to do so!!!  In fact, there may be several on this site who would commit to fast and pray with us....I guarantee you God would be faithful, if you would be!!



My comments are in blue.

If I did fast and pray, as you suggest, what should I pray for?  If I ask for a sign, a supernatural event that can only be explained by invoking the almighty, then am I not just like the scribes and pharasies that you refer to?  What would you suggest I pray for?


----------



## WTM45

creation's_cause said:


> Faith my friend is as easy as hearing His voice and opening the door of your life.



Not for everyone.  Some simply do not "hear voices."


----------



## dexrusjak

creation's_cause said:


> Behold....He stands at the door and knocks, and whoever hears His voice, and opens the door, He Shall Come In.
> 
> Faith my friend is as easy as hearing His voice and opening the door of your life.



If I heard his voice, I would gladly open.  Trouble is, there is no voice to hear.


----------



## creation's_cause

dexrusjak said:


> My comments are in blue.
> 
> If I did fast and pray, as you suggest, what should I pray for?  If I ask for a sign, a supernatural event that can only be explained by invoking the almighty, then am I not just like the scribes and pharasies that you refer to?  What would you suggest I pray for?



Pray that God would reveal himself to you through whatever means He chooses.  Pray asking forgiveness for your unbelief and lack of faith that has caused you to be seperated from Him.  Pray and ask forgiveness of sins.  Pray in the same way that you would if you were attempting to restore a relationship with someone you once loved, but the distractions of life have caused that love to wane....that should get you (us) started.  If you are serious...let me know, my offer is still open....fasting would prove you are serious, and you could lose a little weight in the process...me too!!


----------



## WTM45

Ah, the old plea to human emotions found in religious exclusivism.


----------



## creation's_cause

WTM45 said:


> Not for everyone.  Some simply do not "hear voices."



If you are truly seeking, He would never turn you away.  He created you and loved you while you were yet a sinner, He died for you!!!  Problem is, are stiff necks, un-confessed sin, all pile up and create a huge obstacle we feel we can never get over...that is why there are some on this site that would gladly get on there knees with you and interceede to the Father on your behalf.  When you turn from your sin, and seek Him with all your heart, you WILL hear him....I guarantee it, I have and His Word promises it to you....He does not lie!!!!


----------



## dexrusjak

creation's_cause said:


> Pray that God would reveal himself to you through whatever means He chooses.  Pray asking forgiveness for your unbelief and lack of faith that has caused you to be seperated from Him.  Pray and ask forgiveness of sins.  Pray in the same way that you would if you were attempting to restore a relationship with someone you once loved, but the distractions of life have caused that love to wane....that should get you (us) started.  If you are serious...let me know, my offer is still open....fasting would prove you are serious, and you could lose a little weight in the process...me too!!



I appreciate your sincerity.  I really do.  Clearly I'm not going to take you up on your offer because to me (please don't be offended) prayer is a severe waste of time.  I would be insane to try to have a conversation with someone who I know is not there.  But, seriously, thank you for your kind attitude.  It is refreshing.


----------



## creation's_cause

WTM45 said:


> Ah, the old plea to human emotions found in religious exclusivism.



Ah, that old deceiver....always trying to rob us of the riches we have been promised.  Your emotions are a gift to you....just like the ones you experienced when you walked your bride down to the alter....I am assuming some things here.....but seriously, you are not denying you're an emotional being...that is what makes us Human!


----------



## crackerdave

God bless you,Irwin.


----------



## Spotlite

dexrusjak said:


> I think I have a pretty solid understanding of scripture in context.  Regardless of context, the Bible makes many claims of supernatural events that DO NOT HAPPEN TODAY (men rising from the dead, blind suddenly able to see, man living for several days inside a fish, talking donkeys, flood of the whole earth, burning bush not consumed, women turning into pillars of salt, fire raining down from the sky, etc.).  If these events literally happened, then "context" has nothing to do with them.  My question is simply why do events such as these not happen anymore?



According to where you are now, I would have to say I disagree with you for having a solid understanding of the scriptures in context. Not a scripture, but the whole thing.

If you did, you would know the answer to your question.

Without the faith to believe, the discussion is dead.

I could tell you all day long that the barn is red, but if your color blind and dont have the faith in me to believe that Im telling you the truth........................


----------



## WTM45

creation's_cause said:


> If you are truly seeking, He would never turn you away.  He created you and loved you while you were yet a sinner, He died for you!!!  Problem is, are stiff necks, un-confessed sin, all pile up and create a huge obstacle we feel we can never get over...that is why there are some on this site that would gladly get on there knees with you and interceede to the Father on your behalf.  When you turn from your sin, and seek Him with all your heart, you WILL hear him....I guarantee it, I have and His Word promises it to you....He does not lie!!!!



Send him my way.  Seriously.  Honestly.
I have my questions all ready.


----------



## WTM45

creation's_cause said:


> Ah, that old deceiver....always trying to rob us of the riches we have been promised.  Your emotions are a gift to you....just like the ones you experienced when you walked your bride down to the alter....I am assuming some things here.....but seriously, you are not denying you're an emotional being...that is what makes us Human!



Individual emotions are something to be in control over, not played upon by someone seeking control.
Enjoy them when they are appropriate, control them when they are not.

"Give 'till it hurts!"
"Open your wallets and purses for Jesus!"
"Tell the sins of your neighbor.  Bring them to the light of the church!"
"We must have those new stained glass windows!"
"Give me ten million, or "God" will take me tomorrow!"


----------



## creation's_cause

"Hey friend, I see you are hurting....can I pray and intercede for you"....those are not words of control, those are words of compassion.  There are churches out there that get it right scripturally, but when we join they go down hill fast.  I give joyfully, and out of obedience....I have never not been able to provide for my family.  You can struggle and wage your personal war against God all you want, but in the end, I am positive you will find it a disappointment.


----------



## creation's_cause

WTM45 said:


> Send him my way.  Seriously.  Honestly.
> I have my questions all ready.



WTM45--

Seriously/Honestly....do you want to hear from God?  Yes or No....no other adjectives or adverbs.  PM me if you would like.  CC


----------



## WTM45

CC, it's not a "war" or anything like it.
It is a simple search for the truth.  Researching the history.  Learning the origins of beliefs.  Realizing their intentions and motives.
So far, finding nothing substantial there, regardless of the book or the deity that book promotes.  Nothing except exclusivity.
That's the common theme.


----------



## creation's_cause

WTM45 said:


> CC, it's not a "war" or anything like it.
> It is a simple search for the truth.  Researching the history.  Learning the origins of beliefs.  Realizing their intentions and motives.
> So far, finding nothing substantial there, regardless of the book or the deity that book promotes.  Nothing except exclusivity.
> That's the common theme.



Exclusivity??  I am not sure I follow you here.  Christ's own words and teachings are clear that He invites ALL to come unto Him.  I guess it is the,  "I am THE way THE truth and THE life" that you have problems with.  I am so glad He didn't say I am one of the ways, one of the truths and one way to have life.  I am pretty sure if He had said that, you would be likewise disappointed.  Yes, I believe it is a war.


----------



## WTM45

creation's_cause said:


> WTM45--
> 
> Seriously/Honestly....do you want to hear from God?  Yes or No....no other adjectives or adverbs.  PM me if you would like.  CC



I have bent knees with priests, cardinals, ministers, evangelists, monks, professors of divinity, a rabbi, and many followers of religious belief systems.

I have sat in study of these belief systems for years.  I grew up in the Baptist church with 3 or more times a week church attendance.  I attended parochial schools for 10 years.  I completed four years of seminary/divinity studies (thank goodness for the business degree I earned) and continue to investigate and study.

What is your recommendation?
Fast?
Pray?
Sackcloth and ashes?
30 days in the desert?

I do respect that you have found your answers and have obtained peace in your beliefs.  There are many who have found peace and freedom from religion's oppression through the answers they have found in research.


----------



## dexrusjak

Spotlite said:


> According to where you are now, I would have to say I disagree with you for having a solid understanding of the scriptures in context. Not a scripture, but the whole thing.
> 
> If you did, you would know the answer to your question.  (Okay, so what is the answer to my question?)
> 
> Without the faith to believe, the discussion is dead.
> 
> I could tell you all day long that the barn is red, but if your color blind and dont have the faith in me to believe that Im telling you the truth........................



In your barn analogy, the question is why would I have faith in you?


----------



## WTM45

It's easy to understand why some fail to see the exclusivity in their belief system. 
Think about it.


----------



## creation's_cause

WTM45 said:


> I have bent knees with priests, cardinals, ministers, evangelists, monks, professors of divinity, a rabbi, and many followers of religious belief systems.
> 
> I have sat in study of these belief systems for years.  I grew up in the Baptist church with 3 or more times a week church attendance.  I attended parochial schools for 10 years.  I completed four years of seminary/divinity studies (thank goodness for the business degree I earned) and continue to investigate and study.
> 
> What is your recommendation?
> Fast?
> Pray?Sackcloth and ashes?
> 30 days in the desert?
> 
> I do respect that you have found your answers and have obtained peace in your beliefs.  There are many who have found peace and freedom from religion's oppression through the answers they have found in research.



I did not see these in your list of "tried thats"....unless you consider bent knees the same as praying...but I somehow think it might not have been....your words not mine.  Have you turned from your wicked ways?  Have you sought Him (not an answer) with all of your heart.  Have you humbled yourself before Him.  I say keep searching more honestly and earnestly than ever before, and yes I would go to the desert and sit in sack cloth and ashes to find Him if I were you.  I am retiring soon....we could call it a missions trip, and maybe get some hunting in too!!  Might not need a gun, maybe a ram would be caught by his horns in the bushes!!!  Eating ram, in the desert, sitting in our ashes, seeking God....sounds like a life-altering trip??


----------



## dexrusjak

creation's_cause said:


> I did not see these in your list of "tried thats"....unless you consider bent knees the same as praying...but I somehow think it might not have been....your words not mine.  Have you turned from your wicked ways (Loaded question there.  I don't think I've ever done anything that I would consider wicked.  I've done things and said things that I shouldn't have, things that have hurt people.  I try to avoid hurting others, so to answer your question...yes.) ?  Have you sought Him (not an answer) with all of your heart. (Absolutely, for years.)   Have you humbled yourself before Him. (Many times.)   I say keep searching more honestly and earnestly than ever before, and yes I would go to the desert and sit in sack cloth and ashes to find Him if I were you.  I am retiring soon....we could call it a missions trip, and maybe get some hunting in too!!  Might not need a gun, maybe a ram would be caught by his horns in the bushes!!!  Eating ram, in the desert, sitting in our ashes, seeking God....sounds like a life-altering trip??



Comments in blue.


----------



## creation's_cause

WTM45 said:


> It's easy to understand why some fail to see the exclusivity in their belief system.
> Think about it.



ALL have been invited....that is the truth!  I'll keeping trying to solve your riddle however.


----------



## WTM45

creation's_cause said:


> Have you turned from your wicked ways?





I'm done.
Enjoy your retirement!  You deserve it!


----------



## Spotlite

dexrusjak said:


> In your barn analogy, the question is why would I have faith in you?



Ok, look at it from this perspective;

If you were blind and I told you the truth and said it is dark and another person told you a lie and said no it is day light.

Its up to you to decide whom you are going to doubt or believe or even determine if light or darkness even exist. 

There is no way you can see or touch the darkness or light to get the tangible evidence you are asking for in order to make your decision. 

How do you determine what you are going to believe or not believe?


----------



## dexrusjak

Spotlite said:


> Ok, look at it from this perspective;
> 
> If you were blind and I told you the truth and said it is dark and another person told you a lie and said no it is day light.
> 
> Its up to you to decide whom you are going to doubt or believe or even determine if light or darkness even exist.
> 
> There is no way you can see or touch the darkness or light to get the tangible evidence you are asking for in order to make your decision.
> 
> How do you determine what you are going to believe or not believe?



How do I determine what I am going to believe?  Simply, evidence.  If the evidence pointed to the truth of Christianity, I would be a Christian.  The evidence that I have gathered throughout my life points in the opposite direction.  Rather than ignoring evidence and embracing blind faith, I choose to follow the evidence where it leads...away from belief in the Christian god.


----------



## Spotlite

dexrusjak said:


> How do I determine what I am going to believe?  Simply, evidence.  If the evidence pointed to the truth of Christianity, I would be a Christian.  The evidence that I have gathered throughout my life points in the opposite direction.  Rather than ignoring evidence and embracing blind faith, I choose to follow the evidence where it leads...away from belief in the Christian god.



OK, now............ evidence.

 What is the evidence that you gathered to steer you in the direction you have gone?


----------



## dexrusjak

Spotlite said:


> OK, now............ evidence.
> 
> What is the evidence that you gathered to steer you in the direction you have gone?



1. Biblical contradictions and obsurdities
2. Abundance of senseless human suffering
3. Many unanswered prayers

To name a few.

What is your evidence for belief in the CHRISTIAN god?


----------



## Spotlite

dexrusjak said:


> 1. Biblical contradictions and obsurdities
> 2. Abundance of senseless human suffering
> 3. Many unanswered prayers
> 
> To name a few.
> 
> What is your evidence for belief in the CHRISTIAN god?



1. No contradictions in my Bible. 
2. Human suffering is abundant in the Christian and non Christian world. 
3. Many answered prayers. 

Still back to faith and understanding or the lack of...........


----------



## aniyunwaya

This thread is a troll thread. 
  Please don't feed the Troll.


----------



## ambush80

Spotlite said:


> Ok, look at it from this perspective;
> 
> If you were blind and I told you the truth and said it is dark and another person told you a lie and said no it is day light.
> 
> Its up to you to decide whom you are going to doubt or believe or even determine if light or darkness even exist.
> 
> There is no way you can see or touch the darkness or light to get the tangible evidence you are asking for in order to make your decision.
> 
> How do you determine what you are going to believe or not believe?



What you claim to be able to do is not see whether it is dark or light outside.  What you claim to be able to do is see in some other wavelength; a wavelength that can't be measured by any instrument.  A wavelength that only exists if you believe it exists and a wavelength that only 33% of the world claims to see as well.  

A better analogy is one of those bracelets that they sell on TV that claim to improve your balance, aid in your digestion and give you more energy.  The evidence that it works: pure testimonial.  There's no current running through it that can be picked up by any instrument.  There's not even any medical basis for why it might do as it claims.  Yet people buy them.  And they swear by them.  And there's nothing you can do to convince them that it doesn't work.

I wish I could come up with a scheme like that.


----------



## gtparts

dexrusjak said:


> Putting Biblical dogma aside momentarily, what do your own observations tell you about the condition of humanity?  Does what you observe in those around you (your family and friends) line up with the scripture above?  Was your wife born evil?  Your children?  Your grandchilren? Are all people born evil?  Is a baby evil?  A toddler?  A humanitarian who serves his community out of love for his fellow man rather than out of an obligation to a god?  Are these people indeed evil just because a two-thousand year old document says they are?  Or should we determine whether or not they are evil by their own actions?



Evil is a matter of the heart and does not have to be manifested to be at work in any one.The problem for all sinners is to see themselves as being adequate, much less perfect. Measured against perfection, we all get a major FAIL. The natural state of all people is one of selfishness. Infants are completely egocentric, vocal and demanding. Their only real interest is to have their needs and wants satisfied by someone else. On a secular basis, it is doubtful any would call a baby evil. As a spiritual matter, we all start on the same bottom rung, self-centered and fundamentally opposed to God.


----------



## dexrusjak

Spotlite said:


> 1. No contradictions in my Bible.
> 2. Human suffering is abundant in the Christian and non Christian world.
> 3. Many answered prayers.
> 
> Still back to faith and understanding or the lack of...........



1. You and I must be reading different Bibles.  http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

2. So?  Why would your god allow so much suffering for Christians or nonChristians?  

3. I bet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI


----------



## dexrusjak

gtparts said:


> Evil is a matter of the heart and does not have to be manifested to be at work in any one.The problem for all sinners is to see themselves as being adequate, much less perfect. Measured against perfection, we all get a major FAIL. The natural state of all people is one of selfishness. Infants are completely egocentric, vocal and demanding. Their only real interest is to have their needs and wants satisfied by someone else. On a secular basis, it is doubtful any would call a baby evil. As a spiritual matter, we all start on the same bottom rung, self-centered and fundamentally opposed to God.



If self-centeredness is your definition of evil, then god is by far the most evil being.  "Worship me or burn forever!"  It doesn't get more self-centered than that.


----------



## ambush80

dexrusjak said:


> If self-centeredness is your definition of evil, then god is by far the most evil being.  "Worship me or burn forever!"  It doesn't get more self-centered than that.




What say ye Christians to the observation that God's primary demand of his followers seems very, very human; like an Earthly King would demand of his followers, a very, very human king?


----------



## creation's_cause

I don't know too many Kings who would give up their rightful place of royalty, come to earth in the form of a man, die for me while I was yet His enemy, and offer me eternal life with Him....that is not very human like, that is the epitomy of LOVE!!!


----------



## dexrusjak

creation's_cause said:


> I don't know too many Kings who would give up their rightful place of royalty, come to earth in the form of a man, die for me while I was yet His enemy, and offer me eternal life with Him....that is not very human like, that is the epitomy of LOVE!!!



I disagree.  The epitome of love for an omnipotent god would be to create a system in which billions and billions and billions of people will not burn forever.


----------



## Spotlite

dexrusjak said:


> 1. You and I must be reading different Bibles.  http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
> 
> 2. So?  Why would your god allow so much suffering for Christians or nonChristians?
> 
> 3. I bet. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk6ILZAaAMI


I'm not sure what your reading or getting out of it, but I agree it must be different. Suffering is a result of sinful world. Blame all the bad on God. Give him no credit for any of the good. Sounds closed minded doesn't it? Youtube is not a place of reference.


----------



## Madman

WTM45 said:


> Ah, the old plea to human emotions found in religious exclusivism.



 By its very definition truth is exclusive.


----------



## dexrusjak

Spotlite said:


> I'm not sure what your reading or getting out of it, but I agree it must be different. Suffering is a result of sinful world. Blame all the bad on God. Give him no credit for any of the good. Sounds closed minded doesn't it? Youtube is not a place of reference.



1. I don't blame any of the bad or good on god, because there is no god.

2. If there were a god, he could not possibly be all loving, all knowing, and all powerful.  If you disagree, take a walk through a children's hospital sometime.  I wouldn't allow a stray dog to suffer if I could prevent it, and I'm not all loving.  Why would an all loving god allow a precious child to suffer day after day after day and then die?  (The obvious answer is there is no god.)

3. Did you watch the video?  What did you think about it?


----------



## Madman

dexrusjak said:


> If there were a god, he could not possibly be all loving, all knowing, and all powerful.  If you disagree, take a walk through a children's hospital sometime.  I wouldn't allow a stray dog to suffer if I could prevent it, and I'm not all loving.  Why would an all loving god allow a precious child to suffer day after day after day and then die?  (The obvious answer is there is no god.)



And your explanation  for what you see is?


----------



## ambush80

Madman said:


> And your explanation  for what you see is?




Stuff happens. No one's at the wheel. Deserving has nothing to do with anything.  Take your lumps and keep moving on,  or don't.


----------



## dexrusjak

ambush80 said:


> Stuff happens. No one's at the wheel. Deserving has nothing to do with anything.  Take your lumps and keep moving on,  or don't.



Right on.


----------



## Spotlite

dexrusjak said:


> 1. I don't blame any of the bad or good on god, because there is no god.
> 
> 2. If there were a god, he could not possibly be all loving, all knowing, and all powerful.  If you disagree, take a walk through a children's hospital sometime.  I wouldn't allow a stray dog to suffer if I could prevent it, and I'm not all loving.  Why would an all loving god allow a precious child to suffer day after day after day and then die?  (The obvious answer is there is no god.)
> 
> 3. Did you watch the video?  What did you think about it?



1. You cant prove with hard evidence that God does not exist. I cant prove he does to you. Ambush nailed it for both of us, see below. And your entitled to be a non believer if you choose to do so. I dont have a problem with that.

2. God has a master plan for every human. We all take part in that plan, even you as a non believer. If one person dying of cancer causes a whole family to turn to God. That`s the primary purpose. If there was no loving God up there, explain to my Aunt where her stage 3 cancer went with out any treatment ever from any doctor, and btw, your scientific factors cant answer that either, even they admit there must have been a higher power. She got a 2nd opinion on the cancer itself before deciding treatment. After the 2nd doc said it was stage 3 lung cancer that was spreading to her brain, on the edge of being stage 4. She decided to try treatment,. When she went for all of her test and blood work etc, neither Doc could find the cancer and she never took one treatment for it. All she did was get prayed for at Church.  

3. No, I didnt watch the video. I dont plan to watch it. youtube is just that, youtube., It holds no basis or facts to make a determination about anything for or against anything.   



ambush80 said:


> The evidence that it works: pure testimonial


----------



## Spotlite

dexrusjak said:


> 3. Did you watch the video?  What did you think about it?



I did go back and watch the video. My opinion of youtube and my faith in God still stand firm.


----------



## Madman

dexrusjak said:


> Right on.



So only the Christian must defend the reason for good and bad not the agnostic.
When agnostics are asked for an explanation it becomes "stuff".  However, when the question is posed to the Christian it is in terms of good and bad.  Stuff can be good to some and bad to others.  How convenient. 
But then again how can the agnostic answer?  His worldview has no foundation, good and bad are relative to the agnostic.  Only personal definitions will do.
Jeffery Domer , the agnostic cannibal, was asked how he could eat people.  His reply was “everything evolved, a dog, a cat, a cow, a person.  What is the difference? “  At least he was honest.


----------



## WTM45

Madman said:


> So only the Christian must defend the reason for good and bad not the agnostic.



A Christian only needs to defend their belief in a deity and their holy book.
After all, it is THEIR belief.  They make the claims of "truth" and "existance."
All Agnostics and Athiests have to do is say "Prove it."


----------



## Madman

WTM45 said:


> A Christian only needs to defend their belief in a deity and their holy book.
> After all, it is THEIR belief.  They make the claims of "truth" and "existance."
> All Agnostics and Athiests have to do is say "Prove it."



That is what the agnostic would have you believe.  The evidence seen in the world can only be fully explained by the Christian worldview.  


Creation itself points to the creator. 
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
								Romans 1:20


----------



## dexrusjak

Spotlite said:


> 1. You cant prove with hard evidence that God does not exist. I cant prove he does to you. Ambush nailed it for both of us, see below. And your entitled to be a non believer if you choose to do so. I dont have a problem with that.
> 
> 2. God has a master plan for every human. We all take part in that plan, even you as a non believer. If one person dying of cancer causes a whole family to turn to God. That`s the primary purpose. If there was no loving God up there, explain to my Aunt where her stage 3 cancer went with out any treatment ever from any doctor, and btw, your scientific factors cant answer that either, even they admit there must have been a higher power. She got a 2nd opinion on the cancer itself before deciding treatment. After the 2nd doc said it was stage 3 lung cancer that was spreading to her brain, on the edge of being stage 4. She decided to try treatment,. When she went for all of her test and blood work etc, neither Doc could find the cancer and she never took one treatment for it. All she did was get prayed for at Church.
> 
> 3. No, I didnt watch the video. I dont plan to watch it. youtube is just that, youtube., It holds no basis or facts to make a determination about anything for or against anything.



1.  Agree 100%.  It is impossible to PROVE that anything does not exist.  You cannot PROVE that the Easter Bunny does not exist.  However, the strong evidence against the existence of the Easter Bunny leads you to rightfully believe that there is no such creature.  But you can't PROVE it.

2. If a three year old girl suffering from caner for six months and then dying is part of "god's plan," then I want NO PART of that god.  As far as your aunt's story goes, I'm happy for her.  But if there is a loving god, explain why a three year old girl would SUFFER for months and then PAINFULLY DIE of cancer.


----------



## jmharris23

I watched the youtube video this morning.... since then I have renounced God and have a jug of milk sitting on my counter... Thanks dexrusjak, you saved my life!


----------



## Spotlite

WTM45 said:


> A Christian only needs to defend their belief in a deity and their holy book.
> After all, it is THEIR belief.  They make the claims of "truth" and "existance."
> All Agnostics and Athiests have to do is say "Prove it."



See how the ball just keeps getting rounder and rounder lol

An agnostic says there is no deity, thats their belief.

All the Christian has to do is say "prove it"


----------



## Spotlite

dexrusjak said:


> I want NO PART of that god.



Dont worry, I think your safe


----------



## Madman

dexrusjak said:


> 2. If a three year old girl suffering from caner for six months and then dying is part of "god's plan," then I want NO PART of that god.



It's not.  You can come back now.


----------



## Spotlite

Madman said:


> It's not.



It is appointed unto man to die once..............

The everlasting life is not here.


----------



## Madman

dexrusjak said:


> 2. If a three year old girl suffering from caner for six months and then dying is part of "god's plan," then I want NO PART of that god.


 

CH,  You are "literally" correct.  We all die, however death itself was not part of God's plan.  We were designed to live on earth forever.  

My point was that the suffering of a little girl and eventually her death is not a "plan of God."


----------



## WTM45

Spotlite said:


> See how the ball just keeps getting rounder and rounder lol
> 
> An agnostic says there is no deity, thats their belief.
> 
> All the Christian has to do is say "prove it"



No, an Agnostic says "I don't know."


----------



## dexrusjak

jmharris23 said:


> I watched the youtube video this morning.... since then I have renounced God and have a jug of milk sitting on my counter... Thanks dexrusjak, you saved my life!



Happy to help.  It is 2% right?  You know those skim milkers are preaching a false doctrine.


----------



## dexrusjak

I like it here.  You guys are fun to talk to.


----------



## dexrusjak

Madman said:


> CH,  You are "literally" correct.  We all die, however death itself was not part of God's plan.  We were designed to live on earth forever.
> 
> My point was that the suffering of a little girl and eventually her death is not a "plan of God."



Then why doesn't he stop it?  He (according to you) stopped it for your aunt.  Why not for the little girl?


----------



## Spotlite

wtm45 said:


> no, an agnostic says "i don't know."


ok.................. 


dexrusjak said:


> 1. I don't blame any of the bad or good on god, because there is no god.
> 
> 2. If there were a god,
> 
> (the obvious answer is there is no god.)


----------



## Madman

dexrusjak said:


> Then why doesn't he stop it?  He (according to you) stopped it for your aunt.  Why not for the little girl?



I think you are confusing me with someone else.


----------



## Madman

dexrusjak said:


> Then why doesn't he stop it?



That is a great question for you to ask Him one day.


----------



## dexrusjak

Madman said:


> I think you are confusing me with someone else.



Sorry, that was meant for spotlite.


----------



## dexrusjak

Spotlite said:


> ok..................



Agnostic = knowledge stance
Atheist = belief stance
Theist = belief stance

I am an agnostic in that I do not KNOW (beyond a shadow of a doubt) whether or not there is a god.

I am an atheist because I BELIEVE (based on the evidence) that there is no god.


----------



## Madman

In the OP you claimed to be a youth pastor. 

Where exactly did you get your training?  

What type of discernment process did you go through?

What made you think you were called to be a pastor?  

Was it a voice in your head, perhaps a rabbit with a top hat?  Because if you were honest about the call then you DID hear from God.  Now, some years later you claim you never did.  Perhaps a visit to the psychiatry department would have been more enlightening.

How long were you a pastor?

What changed for you?
It appears the B.A. in Philosophy of Religion that  was what you caved in too.  (depending on where you attended, most of those departments are nothing more than frustrated wana-be's masquerading as intellectuals)   I know several young minds that were not intellectually prepared to enter the social world of college, especially when there is a learned, grey bearded, throw back from the ‘60s, professor proclaiming only morons still hold to the ancient books and superstitions of the Neanderthals. 

I can understand how a spiritually ignorant youth could fall prey to such an intellectual.

I like it here too.  You are fun to talk with also.


----------



## Madman

dexrusjak said:


> Agnostic = knowledge stance
> Atheist = belief stance
> Theist = belief stance



Agnostic = without Knowledge
Atheist = without god
theist= belief there is a god.

Anyone claiming to be an atheist is disingenuous, to believe that you are claiming to be ALL knowing.  An atheist claims there is not any evidence in the universe of a god.  
 An agnostic claims, I don’t know.


----------



## Madman

dexrusjak said:


> I am an atheist because I BELIEVE (based on the evidence) that there is no god.



This is great!!  Because based on the evidence I know there is a God!

I'll bet it is the same evidence!


----------



## dexrusjak

Madman said:


> This is great!!  Because based on the evidence I know there is a God!
> 
> I'll bet it is the same evidence!



You can kidd yourself all you want to and we can play semantic games all day long.  But you do not KNOW there is a god.  You BELIEVE there is a god.  There is a big difference.


----------



## dexrusjak

Madman said:


> Agnostic = without Knowledge
> Atheist = without (belief in a) god
> theist= belief there is a god.
> 
> Anyone claiming to be an atheist is disingenuous, to believe that you are claiming to be ALL knowing.  An atheist claims there is not any evidence in the universe of a god.
> An agnostic claims, I don’t know.



Wrong.  An atheist (at least this atheist) claims that the evidence against the existence of a god outweighs the evidence in support of the existence of a god.  

I will repeat: I DO NOT KNOW THAT THERE IS NO GOD.  I believe there is no god.


----------



## Madman

dexrusjak said:


> You can kidd yourself all you want to and we can play semantic games all day long.  But you do not KNOW there is a god.  You BELIEVE there is a god.  There is a big difference.



Study informational science for a year or two then get back to your statement.

Study thermodynamics for a year or two and then get back to your statement.

Study logic for for a year or two and then get back to your statement.

I would love to discuss the evidence!!   I would also like to see your answers to my list of questions.  I KNOW there is a GOD!



P.S. Study lingustics for for a year or two and then get back to your statement.

A= Without
gnostic = knowledge
theo = god


I like talking too you!!!


----------



## dexrusjak

Madman said:


> In the OP you claimed to have been a youth pastor.
> 
> Where exactly did you get your training? church pews and Sunday school classes mostly
> 
> What type of discernment process did you go through? not much of one
> 
> What made you think you were called to be a pastor?  I felt what I imagined to be a calling after "leading my college roommate to pray the sinners prayer and receive Christ as his personal lord and savior."  Looking back now, it was pure emotion.
> 
> Was it a voice in your head (never heard a voice), perhaps a rabbit with a top hat (no)?  Because if you were honest about the call then you DID hear from God (honestly thought I did for a long time).  Now, some years later you claim you never did (The emotions of a teenager are very powerful).  Perhaps a visit to the psychiatry department would have been more enlightening (perhaps).
> 
> How long were you a pastor? Never a pastor.
> 
> What changed for you? (I started using my brain rather than my emotions.)
> It appears the B.A. in Philosophy of Religion that  was what you caved in too (You may be right.  I learned a lot.  I think that's a good thing though right?).  (depending on where you attended, most of those departments are nothing more than frustrated wana-be's masquerading as intellectuals) (pretty big generalization there)   I know several young minds that were not intellectually prepared to enter the social world of college, especially when there is a learned, grey bearded, throw back from the ‘60s, professor proclaiming only morons still hold to the ancient books and superstitions of the Neanderthals. (I actually attended a Christian college.  All my major professors were professing Christians.)
> 
> I can understand how a spiritually ignorant youth could fall prey to such an intellectual. (Good, because I can understand how an emotionally immature youth can fall prey to the teachings of a church.)
> 
> I like it here too.  You are fun to talk with also (Thanks, buddy.).



My comments are in blue.


----------



## dexrusjak

Madman said:


> Study informational science for a year or two then get back to your statement.
> 
> Study thermodynamics for a year or two and then get back to your statement.
> 
> Study logic for for a year or two and then get back to your statement.
> 
> I would love to discuss the evidence!!   I would also like to see your answers to my list of questions.  I KNOW there is a GOD!
> 
> 
> 
> P.S. Study lingustics for for a year or two and then get back to your statement.
> 
> A= Without
> gnostic = knowledge
> theo = god
> 
> 
> I like talking too you!!!



If you KNOW something, you should be able to prove it, right?  You KNOW there is a god.  Great.  Prove it.


----------



## Madman

In the OP you claimed to have been a youth pastor. 

Where exactly did you get your training? church pews and Sunday school classes mostly 

Sorry to hear your church home didn't train you any better. A good book that discuss that is "Already Gone" 

What type of discernment process did you go through? not much of oneWish you had.  you may understand God a little better today.

What made you think you were called to be a pastor? I felt what I imagined to be a calling after "leading my college roommate to pray the sinners prayer and receive Christ as his personal lord and savior. Looking back now, it was pure emotion.
Sounds like a feeling lead you into something. you needed a little more maturity.

Was it a voice in your head (never heard a voice), perhaps a rabbit with a top hat (no) ?

Because if you were honest about the call then you DID hear from God (honestly thought I did for a long time). 

Feelings got you in 

Now, some years later you claim you never did (The emotions of a teenager are very powerful. Perhaps a visit to the psychiatry department would have been more enlightening (perhaps).

How long were you a pastor? Never a pastor. How long did you minister to youth?

What changed for you? (I started using my brain rather than my emotions.) I understand  have been using mine for a lot of years.  Never have been very emotional, pretty pragmatic. 
"The heart cannot exalt what the mind cannot accept."

It appears the B.A. in Philosophy of Religion that was what you caved in too (You may be right. I learned a lot. I think that's a good thing though right?). 

I am a bigger fan of wisdom than of knowledge.
(depending on where you attended, most of those departments are nothing more than frustrated wana-be's masquerading as intellectuals) (pretty big generalization there) 

Just going from experience. 

I know several young minds that were not intellectually prepared to enter the social world of college, especially when there is a learned, grey bearded, throw back from the ‘60s, professor proclaiming only morons still hold to the ancient books and superstitions of the Neanderthals. (I actually attended a Christian college. All my major professors were professing Christians.) 
That doesn't mean much.  I know "christian colleges" that teach pluralism.  

I can understand how a spiritually ignorant youth could fall prey to such an intellectual. (Good, because I can understand how an emotionally immature youth can fall prey to the teachings of a church.)

Man are you ever correct!! There are some sick churchs out there.  That is why mine never did, they surrendered to the Holy Spirit.


I like it here too. You are fun to talk with also (Thanks, buddy.).


----------



## pnome

I hope you don't mind if I intercede here.

You guys are getting bogged down in semantics.  

Madman,

What do you call someone who doesn't know that there is no god, but also doesn't believe in God?

That's what Dex is.


----------



## Madman

dexrusjak said:


> If you KNOW something, you should be able to prove it, right?  You KNOW there is a god.  Great.  Prove it.



If you walked out your door this morning and saw a pen oak leaf, a popular leaf, a white oak leaf, a river burch leaf, and a maple leaf in a row.  They were exactly 3” apart and the stems were all aligned on the north /south axis. This pattern started at your front door and ended at your mailbox in a perfectly straight line.

How would you think they got there?


----------



## pnome

Madman said:


> If you walked out your door this morning and saw a pen oak leaf, a popular leaf, a white oak leaf, a river burch leaf, and a maple leaf in a row.  They were exactly 3” apart and the stems were all aligned on the north /south axis. This pattern started at your front door and ended at your mailbox in a perfectly straight line.
> 
> How would you think they got there?



Ahhhh, the Teleological Argument.  I know it well..


----------



## Madman

pnome said:


> I hope you don't mind if I intercede here.
> 
> You guys are getting bogged down in semantics.
> 
> Madman,
> 
> What do you call someone who doesn't know that there is no god, but also doesn't believe in God?
> 
> That's what Dex is.



Agnostic. Without knowledge.  If someone says "I do not see any evidence of god, therefore I am not sure, however, there could be some evidence somewhere that I am missing so  I just do not know."  

Then we have something to talk about.

I think you and I have been here before.


----------



## Madman

pnome said:


> Ahhhh, the Teleological Argument.  I know it well..



Yes.  Was it you months ago, when it was applied, who said you would believe someone placed them there?


----------



## pnome

Madman said:


> I think you and I have been here before.



Several times.


----------



## WTM45

Madman said:


> If you walked out your door this morning and saw a pen oak leaf, a popular leaf, a white oak leaf, a river burch leaf, and a maple leaf in a row.  They were exactly 3” apart and the stems were all aligned on the north /south axis. This pattern started at your front door and ended at your mailbox in a perfectly straight line.
> 
> How would you think they got there?



A tresspasser.


----------



## pnome

Madman said:


> Yes.  Was it you months ago, when it was applied, who said you would believe someone placed them there?



You have used that same scenario on me before.

I think I recall that I countered with a bucket of sand, pebbles and ash, all shook up, still returning to an order of pebbles -> sand -> ash.  As an example where order occurs from chaos due to natural forces.


----------



## Madman

pnome said:


> You have used that same scenario on me before.
> 
> I think I recall that I countered with a bucket of sand, pebbles and ash, all shook up, still returning to an order of pebbles -> sand -> ash.  As an example where order occurs from chaos due to natural forces.



Oh yes.  Order form Chaos.  How silly of me to forget.


----------



## Spotlite

dexrusjak said:


> But you do not KNOW there is a god.  You BELIEVE there is a god.  There is a big difference.





Wow, and you came to that conclusion after you failed Christianity, because you didnt have enough back bone and foundation to stick to your "calling" and became a victim to every wind of doctrine???

Maybe your unanswered prayers were due to lack of faith, also the Bible is very clear about answers to prayer; "some things only come by prayer *and* fasting" 

Sometimes folks pray for a red mustang instead of praying for a way to get to work


----------



## Madman

pnome said:


> You have used that same scenario on me before.
> 
> I think I recall that I countered with a bucket of sand, pebbles and ash, all shook up, still returning to an order of pebbles -> sand -> ash.  As an example where order occurs from chaos due to natural forces.



Yes and a poor example it was. The pebbles, sand and ash will become ordered due to natural forces all of which can be explained by density, etc.  (aka physics)  And it will happen EVERY TIME.  The leaves will NEVER order themselves because, the order of the leaves cannot be explained by natural forces.  The order or "code" can only be explained by the intervention by someone writing that code. 

WTM got it right!  Thank you for your honesty WTM. Once again you and I agree!  In the illustration someone came into the yard and intentionally put down that “code” so you would know they were there. 

Gen 1:12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds.  

Dexrusjak, you asked for proof of God.  Look at DNA the human genome, God stepped into time and created everything, the life he created, He filled it with information (code) so that it could reproduce.

The more scientist discover about life and the more intricate they see it is, more and more of them are turning to a creator.

Roms 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

There is one proof.


----------



## pnome

Madman said:


> Yes and a poor example it was. The pebbles, sand and ash will become ordered due to natural forces all of which can be explained by density, etc.  (aka physics)  And it will happen EVERY TIME.  The leaves will NEVER order themselves because, the order of the leaves cannot be explained by natural forces.  The order or "code" can only be explained by the intervention by someone writing that code.
> 
> WTM got it right!  Thank you for your honesty WTM. Once again you and I agree!  In the illustration someone came into the yard and intentionally put down that “code” so you would know they were there.
> 
> Gen 1:12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds.
> 
> Dexrusjak, you asked for proof of God.  Look at DNA the human genome, God stepped into time and created everything, the life he created, He filled with information (code) so that it could reproduce.
> 
> The more scientist discover about life and the more intricate they see it is, more and more of them are turning to a creator.
> 
> Roms 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
> 
> There is one proof.



Not so fast there Madman.

You are making a pretty large leap there.  It is as if WTM had said "Derrick Jeter, placed those leaves there."  Instead of just "a trespasser." 

Can you produce any empirical data to suggest that DNA was designed by the God of Abraham?  Is there ANY way to test your hypothesis?


----------



## WTM45

pnome said:


> Not so fast there Madman.
> 
> You are making a pretty large leap there.  It is as if WTM had said "Derrick Jeter, placed those leaves there."  Instead of just "a trespasser."
> 
> Can you produce any empirical data to suggest that DNA was designed by the God of Abraham?  Is there ANY way to test your hypothesis?



Correct!

A well trained rhesus monkey could have done it.

Either way, I have a security issue on my hands.  And, if I take pictures, something to sell to a tabloid.


----------



## Madman

pnome said:


> Can you produce any empirical data to suggest that DNA was designed by the God of Abraham?



Now, on behalf of dexrusjak, you have changed the question.  He asked for proof of God.  I supplied it.  By your response then you agree with WTM and me that when code or language is used it must have been put there by intelligence.

We must move along in baby steps.  As Isaiah writes: “For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.”  That is most likely the reason you and dex fell away.   “For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept,….”    If you follow that, just as a child in their school studies, you will “no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,…..”

Where is that rascal dexrusjak?  He asked a question, gets an answer then runs away.


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## Madman

WTM45 said:


> Correct!
> 
> A well trained rhesus monkey could have done it.



Who trained the monkey?

Either way we are still agreeing on intelligence.  
I love it when a discussion can start on common ground.

Now if we can get dex back and see if he agrees with the three of us we can move on.


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## WTM45

Madman said:


> Who trained the monkey?
> 
> Either way we are still agreeing on intelligence.
> I love it when a discussion can start on common ground.
> 
> Now if we can get dex back and see if he agrees with the three of us we can move on.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deepak-chopra/intelligent-design-withou_b_6105.html


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## Madman

WTM45 said:


> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deepak-chopra/intelligent-design-withou_b_6105.html



Thanks, I don't do links.  I figure if it is worth discussing it is worth putting in your own thoughts.

Perhaps you could paraphrase.


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## WTM45

That is research and investigation.  Steps necessary to make conclusions.


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## Madman

WTM45 said:


> That is research and investigation.  Steps necessary to make conclusions.



Sorry I do not understand the statement.


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## WTM45

Madman said:


> Sorry I do not understand the statement.



It's simple.  Read links.  Investigate.


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## pnome

Madman said:


> Now, on behalf of dexrusjak, you have changed the question.  He asked for proof of God.  I supplied it.  By your response then you agree with WTM and me that when code or language is used it must have been put there by intelligence.



Sorry for the confusion.  But you used "God" with a capitol G.  Which I take to refer to the God of the Bible.  You might have said "He asked for proof of a god"

Which you still haven't provided.  All you have provided is a logical fallacy known as the "Argument from personal incredulity"  a slight variation of the Argument from Ignorance.


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## Madman

As I said,  if the point was profound you would paraphrase, you would desire to teach some "pearl" you have found, then others could decide if it is worth researching.

You just want someone else to haul your water.  

When dex returns he and I will continue if he desires.  

You have already yielded on the point of intelligence, yet I see you have no desire to move to the next “precept” you only wish to muddy the discussion, and obfuscate. Your disingenuous remarks make it clear you are not in search of the truth, only sophomoric argument and derailment.  

This forum deserves better.


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## WTM45

Madman said:


> As I said,  if the point was profound you would paraphrase, you would desire to teach some "pearl" you have found, then others could decide if it is worth researching.
> 
> You just want someone else to haul your water.
> 
> When dex returns he and I will continue if he desires.
> 
> You have already yielded on the point of intelligence, yet I see you have no desire to move to the next “precept” you only wish to muddy the discussion, and obfuscate. Your disingenuous remarks make it clear you are not in search of the truth, only sophomoric argument and derailment.
> 
> This forum deserves better.





Wrong.

Thanks for dismissing me out of hand.
See, I am not the one seeking debate (which is forbidden here).  All I have done is to present a link to another viewpoint, another line of thought, an additional contribution to the discussion.

In no way do I personally have to agree with the points made by the author of the linked article.  It is simply an additional resource to the discussion.

You personally will be the one who decides if the article is "worth researching" or not.  That's not on me.

I do feel your "Christian" vibe.  It is not so pleasant.


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## pnome

Madman said:


> You have already yielded on the point of intelligence



Don't see where I've done that.  


EDIT: Oh, you mean WTM not me.  Sorry.


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## WTM45

On intelligence...

Take a Rolex made in 2009.  Send it back in time to 10,000 BC.
Oh yeah, those folks would surely think it is an item that held design concepts, technology and points to the possibly of intelligent design.
(If their minds can comprehend that concept.)

I doubt they would automatically come to a conclusion that a deity created and built it, even if they had a holy book on hand to tell them such.

Stating intelligent design is a possiblity does not automatically default that to a deity.
Any deity.


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## Madman

> =WTM45;5349734
> I do feel your "Christian" vibe.  It is not so pleasant.



So your problem is with Christ, not with God?


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## WTM45

Madman said:


> So your problem is with Christ, not with God?



Which are you representing today?

Your vibe and aggressiveness bordering on insult is what causes me concern.  Being dismissed like that makes me wonder what your intentions are.
I think you can do better to defend your stance by staying on topic, not on attacking a discussion participant.

It is but a discussion.  I have not insulted you, or your stance and belief.

I'm a big boy.  I can take some mud slinging.  I just have no desire to sling it back.  It just ain't that important.

Sorry for the derail, dex.
Remember the "high road" advice.


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## Madman

WTM45 said:


> Which are you representing today?
> 
> Your vibe and aggressiveness bordering on insult is what causes me concern.  Being dismissed like that makes me wonder what your intentions are.
> I think you can do better to defend your stance by staying on topic, not on attacking a discussion participant.
> 
> It is but a discussion.  I have not insulted you, or your stance and belief.
> 
> I'm a big boy.  I can take some mud slinging.  I just have no desire to sling it back.  It just ain't that important.
> 
> Sorry for the derail, dex.
> Remember the "high road" advice.[/QUOTE]
> 
> I see no mud.  I have insulted no one.  And I have not attacked anyone.   Unlike some passive aggression has never impressed me.  (In blue) I am only following your lead.  We are discussing the "proof" of god.  (thanks for clarifying the big G little g pnome)
> At least that is what dex asked for.   I used “sophomoric” because in light of an adult conversation you throw out “trespasser” and “rhesus monkey”.
> Perhaps seriousness is not your forte; it is difficult to discern when one communicates by letter.


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## WTM45

You dismissed me out of hand twice today, in two different threads.
That's truly sophomoric.

"This little light of mine,
I'm gonna let it shine.
This little light of mine,
I'm gonnal let it shine.
Let it shine, let it shine, let it shine."


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## WTM45

Madman said:


> I used “sophomoric” because in light of an adult conversation you throw out “trespasser” and “rhesus monkey”.
> Perhaps seriousness is not your forte; it is difficult to discern when one communicates by letter.



Dismissed a THIRD time!
WOW!


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## dexrusjak

Madman said:


> Yes and a poor example it was. The pebbles, sand and ash will become ordered due to natural forces all of which can be explained by density, etc.  (aka physics)  And it will happen EVERY TIME.  The leaves will NEVER order themselves because, the order of the leaves cannot be explained by natural forces.  The order or "code" can only be explained by the intervention by someone writing that code.
> 
> WTM got it right!  Thank you for your honesty WTM. Once again you and I agree!  In the illustration someone came into the yard and intentionally put down that “code” so you would know they were there.
> 
> Gen 1:12 The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds.
> 
> Dexrusjak, you asked for proof of God.  Look at DNA the human genome, God stepped into time and created everything, the life he created, He filled it with information (code) so that it could reproduce.
> 
> The more scientist discover about life and the more intricate they see it is, more and more of them are turning to a creator.
> 
> Roms 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
> 
> There is one proof.



Sorry I've been away, guys.  I had to pay some bills.  Now back to the discussion...

Every argument for god (teleological, cosmological, ontological, etc.) looks pretty good on the surface.  That's why they're so popular.  However, they are not proofs; they are arguments.  If they were proofs, there would be no need for faith or discussions such as the one we are having.  

In responding to the teleological argument, allow me to make two statements.

1. I am not an expert in physics.
2. I am never afraid to say, "I don't know."

The teleological argument arrives at the conclusion of the existence of a deity based on observations of order in nature.  It in no way arrives at the conclusion of the existence of the Christian God.  Nor does it take into account the multitude of counter examples of disorder in nature (cancer, deformities, storms, etc.).  Do these examples point to the absence of a deity?  Maybe, maybe not.

Stephen Hawking seems to think that a creator is not necessary for the existence of the universe.  He may be right, he may be wrong.  I certainly don't have the necessary training to make an educated assessment of his findings.  I tend to think he's earned a little credibility throughout the course of his career.  Maybe we should take his word for it.

I've heard this argument before...take apart a watch and put all the pieces into a bag.  Shake the bag for one billion years.  The pieces will likely not find their way back together to form a watch.  Hence the need for a designer.  However, this example is lacking.  According to some things I've read of Hawking, a better example would be to take billions of watches apart, put their pieces in billions of bags, and shake the billions of bags for billions and billions of years.  Eventually, the contents of one of the bags may find its way back into the form of a watch randomly, without the need of a designer.  Now, I'm not saying I agree with this example, but it seems like something to consider.

Honestly, I don't know how we came to be here.  I will not, however, take the default answer of a god to be my conclusion.  To me, saying "God made us." is equivalent to saying, "Aliens made us." or how about "Many gods made us." as millions of people have believed.  

Rather than approach the issue of belief in god this way (by beginning at the beginning so to speak) I prefer beginning with the here and now.  "I'm here, so now what do I do?  What do I experience?  What do my experiences tell me about whether or not there is a god?"  

I apologize if the above is rambling nonsense.  It's been a long day.


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## dexrusjak

pnome said:


> Sorry for the confusion.  But you used "God" with a capitol G.  Which I take to refer to the God of the Bible.  You might have said "He asked for proof of a god"
> 
> Which you still haven't provided.  All you have provided is a logical fallacy known as the "Argument from personal incredulity"  a slight variation of the Argument from Ignorance.



Very good observation pnome. 

For many, many years, the vast majority of humanity believed the earth to be flat.  It wasn't until empirical evidence demonstrated that the earth was indeed spherical that people began to change their long held belief.  I imagine one day, humanity will rise to the intellectual level of strong empirical evidence which leads the masses away from belief in a god.  Until then, I guess we'll just have to use our imaginations.


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## WTM45

dexrusjak said:


> For many, many years, the vast majority of humanity believed the earth to be flat.  It wasn't until empirical evidence demonstrated that the earth was indeed spherical that people began to change their long held belief.



Oh, those darned folks who go "against the norm" seeking such evidence!


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## Madman

dexrusjak said:


> I apologize if the above is rambling nonsense.  It's been a long day.



I like honesty in discussion.  Which I believe you are.

I do not see it as nonsense at all.  I see it as searching.  I have not read much Hawkins in a long time but I believe even he gets stuck at "ex nihilo nihil fit".  We must start somewhere.  

I look at creation and see a creator some of you don't.

But we have all been given a measure of faith.


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## Madman

WTM45 said:


> Dismissed a THIRD time!
> WOW!



I paraphrase your hero dio:  Children go to your room, adults are talking.


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## Madman

As for the “Argument from Incredulity”, the assumption is that I have never looked at any other religion, been a student of the sciences, or had any ideas of my own.  That could not be farther from the truth.  I believe some on here call that “being dismissed”. 

The Judeo/Christian worldview is the only view that fits the evidence we see.  Every other view must have some “relief mechanism” (Such as aliens, per Christopher Hitchens) to explain life as we know it.  But it negates the need to explain where that life came from.


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## Spotlite

pnome said:


> Can you produce any empirical data to suggest that DNA was designed by the God of Abraham?  Is there ANY way to test your hypothesis?



Just out of curiosity, can those that do not believe in God or that Jesus was born of a virgin because its impossible because thats just not the way a lady becomes pregnant, you know there has to be an egg fertilization thing to happen (you know the physical stuff). But can you produce the same evidence of how the first man, animal, fish etc got here? What about the first tree, where did the seed come from? If you stick with evolution, where did the very first thing that evolved into something else come from? Was it a cell just floating around? Where did that cell come from? (BTW, evolution is still just a theory at best) What laid the first egg to hatch? 

Surely you have some hard tested physical evidence, not a theory, to support your self. Folks talk about the Bible contradicting itself, watch the answers we get for these questions, there will not be one answer that is supported by hard tested proven physical evidence that is required by science in order to be substantial


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## pnome

Spotlite said:


> Just out of curiosity, can those that do not believe in God or that Jesus was born of a virgin because its impossible because thats just not the way a lady becomes pregnant, you know there has to be an egg fertilization thing to happen (you know the physical stuff). But can you produce the same evidence of how the first man, animal, fish etc got here? What about the first tree, where did the seed come from? If you stick with evolution, where did the very first thing that evolved into something else come from? Was it a cell just floating around? Where did that cell come from? (BTW, evolution is still just a theory at best) What laid the first egg to hatch?
> 
> Surely you have some hard tested physical evidence, not a theory, to support your self. Folks talk about the Bible contradicting itself, watch the answers we get for these questions, there will not be one answer that is supported by hard tested proven physical evidence that is required by science in order to be substantial



I have no evidence and no clue where the first cell came from.  I simply do not know...  And neither do you.


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## WTM45

Madman said:


> I paraphrase your hero dio:  Children go to your room, adults are talking.



A fourth dismissal.


----------



## Madman

WTM45 said:


> A fourth dismissal.



If I had time to respond I bet you would set yourself up for a dozen.

Precept upon precept,..........


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## WTM45

Madman,

http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=5349796&postcount=16


Do us a favor, simply keep your word.  It's quite clear you have a personal problem with me.
Just put me on ignore.  Simple.

You are digging yourself deeper and deeper, virtually burning your credibility to ashes with gasoline and a Bic lighter.


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## Madman

WTM45 said:


> Madman,
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=5349796&postcount=16
> 
> 
> Do us a favor, simply keep your word.  It's quite clear you have a personal problem with me.
> Just put me on ignore.  Simple.
> 
> You are digging yourself deeper and deeper, virtually burning your credibility to ashes with gasoline and a Bic lighter.



I sincerely apologize for offending you.  I thought we were funnin.

P.S. I asked you do the same.  Put me on ignore that is.


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## WTM45

Madman said:


> I sincerely apologize for offending you.  I thought we were funnin.
> 
> P.S. I asked you do the same.  Put me on ignore that is.



I'm honestly not offended in the least, Madman.  I have enjoyed our past conversations here.  I do not recall you ever asking me to place you on "Ignore" either via PM or on the open forum.  
Anyhow, I would not, as I do not feel anyone on this website can do anything that would require me to do such.

I respect each person's viewpoint, beliefs and faith.
I'm just confused in your recent dismissal of me.  Not my views or statements, but of me directly.

Maybe it's been a bad day.  I don't know.
I hope it gets better.  It's Friday, for goodness sake!
The weekend is here!


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## Madman

WTM45 said:


> I'm honestly not offended in the least, Madman.  I have enjoyed our past conversations here.  I do not recall you ever asking me to place you on "Ignore" either via PM or on the open forum.
> Anyhow, I would not, as I do not feel anyone on this website can do anything that would require me to do such.
> 
> I respect each person's viewpoint, beliefs and faith.
> I'm just confused in your recent dismissal of me.  Not my views or statements, but of me directly.
> 
> Maybe it's been a bad day.  I don't know.
> I hope it gets better.  It's Friday, for goodness sake!
> The weekend is here!



Does that mean I am allowed to retract my "will not engage" comment?


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## WTM45

Madman said:


> Does that mean I am allowed to retract my "will not engage" comment?



I did not observe you putting that stance into action, therefore I see no need for you to change!
I did not feel the need to set up a perimeter defense with trip flares or to fill out a range card for the crew served weapons either!

I'll be around.  We'll chat more I'm sure!


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## Madman

WTM45 said:


> I did not observe you putting that stance into action, therefore I see no need for you to change!
> I did not feel the need to set up a perimeter defense with trip flares or to fill out a range card for the crew served weapons either!
> 
> I'll be around.  We'll chat more I'm sure!



Thank you for your kindness.  Very well, I will retract it on my own, less my character come into question again by engaging.  
This is off topic and Dex I apologize.  I would start another thread if I knew how.  

I would like to say to WTM and anyone else “please do not mishear passion for anger, or hate, or dismissiveness, (if that is a word) from me and I would hope from anyone else on this forum. “ I enjoy hearing others views and positions.    
WTM I have enjoyed our discussions in the past and I will in the future.    Perhaps my week, month and quarter has been too good and I thought everyone was as jovial as I was.  However, sometimes the attitude gets lost in the words, we cannot see each other’s eyes, or hear tones and inflections.  I should and will be more careful in the future.



> The weekend is here!



Et tu WTM Et tu


Go on your way into the world in peace….
Be of good courage; Hold fast that which is good;
Render no man evil for evil; Strengthen the faint hearted;
Support the weak; Help and cheer the sick; Honor all men; 
Love and serve the Lord;
And the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of 
God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with us 
all evermore.


----------

