# Paradox of evil in religion



## Artfuldodger (Oct 2, 2015)

Must we have evil in order to have good?

Most of the worlds religion had good such as a god or gods and most have evil entities as well. They are always at battle.

How do we reconcile the existence of evil with that of a deity who is, in either absolute or relative terms, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent?

Maybe there is an omnipotence paradox.

This last school killing has me thinking about evilness.
How is it related to all of the world religions?


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## JimD (Oct 2, 2015)

The paradox you mention is one reason why there are atheists. If God is all powerful, then why would he not just destroy the evil and get it over with or why did he create evil in the first place. Those are great questions and I am not wise enough to give a good answer to it.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 2, 2015)

Which is easier: to say, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? Luke 5:23
-------------------------------

It depends of what we say, maybe?

 a)Maybe if we say our sins are forgiven than good is no longer qualified by evil, but by the good act of forgiving. 

 b)If we say "get up and walk" to ourselves and with others, then we  only have our own motivations and will to compare.

In (a) evil ( the knowledge of and causes) is not required to know good.


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## Israel (Oct 3, 2015)

JimD said:


> The paradox you mention is one reason why there are atheists. If God is all powerful, then why would he not just destroy the evil and get it over with or why did he create evil in the first place. Those are great questions and I am not wise enough to give a good answer to it.


Surely that is a part of the reasoning.
Can a deeper thing be at work than what the mind easily grasps as "reason"?


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## gordon 2 (Oct 3, 2015)

Israel said:


> Surely that is a part of the reasoning.
> Can a deeper thing be at work than what the mind easily grasps as "reason"?



Some Frenchman once wrote " The heart has reasons, that reason does not know."

 One group seems to point to reasons known, the other to those unknown or the effects of the disconnect on a consensus of what constitutes reason, the reasonable and the unreasonable. Maybe.

Basically when I read the word, it speaks to me of two lovers. One lover forgives ( gives) and the other does not ( takes). The lover that takes cowers from evil and knows well the poisons of evil, even taking little pills of it to make himself, herself immune. The lover that gives stands boldly for the light of love, not cowering to any evil or illness or deformity caused by it--the motivation is of the power of everlasting both of the past, the present and the future-- as seen beyond the minds forged by sinning. 

" But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people."

These are Paul's instruction to his fellow worker Timothy. I think it is a good example of how love can be championed--- yet sadly perverted. Such love is of poor light, poor reasoning. There are other reasonings that their hearts do not know--despite believing for assessments that one has the market cornered on reason.

So what is to grasp then? Perhaps it is not reason itself. Perhaps reason alone is a poor motivator of people. People are motivated by love perhaps?  Perhaps love is the ring in reason's nose? Now those rings? Who's rings lower and raise our reasons? Is it something any reasonable man can come up with? Is it something a lover, even crazy in love, and a crazy lover can come up with?


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## Israel (Oct 3, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Some Frenchman once wrote " The heart has reasons, that reason does not know."
> 
> One group seems to point to reasons known, the other to those unknown or the effects of the disconnect on a consensus of what constitutes reason, the reasonable and the unreasonable. Maybe.
> 
> ...


 Last night I was moved to post this to FB.

You remind me how spirit speaks...even from deep within us, when "reason"...is not there for answer. What is, is. Needing no "reason" to be.

Jesus, as the ever present One has the wonderful ability to cause us to live in the present, in his presence. It is not that we are unfocused, we are simply focused on everything that is not now, not, therefore, real. Imaginations pull us into the future, regrets into the past...and they have for their allowed time, a sway. But Jesus, when come to be known as the one who was, and is, and is to come, inhabiting all...past present and future...sweetens all, and we want to know...where he always is, to us, now.
The gift of being told by the only one with authority to do so, "fear not", "take no thought for tomorrow..."...we eventually come to see as the gift of greatest relief...to restless and easily frightened souls.
Oh, fools though we may appear...we have learned this is our allowance and grace, and how precious it is.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Oct 3, 2015)

I was raised Presbyterian, they don't believe in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored.  OK, He(double hockey sticks) [Really? In the religious forum?.  Once of the reasons I left religion was that very question - how can you believe in Heaven if you don't believe in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensored


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## gordon 2 (Oct 3, 2015)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> I was raised Presbyterian, they don't believe in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored.  OK, He(double hockey sticks) [Really? In the religious forum?.  Once of the reasons I left religion was that very question - how can you believe in Heaven if you don't believe in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensored




Heaven or Paradise can be appreciated without the concept of Censored x's 6. Our origins in a state of happiness according to Genesis are not dependent on it-but rather on man's wholesome communion with his creator.


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## Israel (Oct 5, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Heaven or Paradise can be appreciated without the concept of Censored x's 6. Our origins in a state of happiness according to Genesis are not dependent on it-but rather on man's wholesome communion with his creator.



Amen.
Where the eternal and true are not dependent upon the temporary and lie as a necessary foil.


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## swampstalker24 (Oct 5, 2015)

JimD said:


> The paradox you mention is one reason why there are atheists. If God is all powerful, then why would he not just destroy the evil and get it over with or why did he create evil in the first place. Those are great questions and I am not wise enough to give a good answer to it.





> “Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
> Then he is not omnipotent.
> Is he able, but not willing?
> Then he is malevolent.
> ...


  - Epicurus


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## Israel (Oct 5, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> OK, you guys have gotten me going on one of those things that I have never been convinced that I fully understand.  I figure that when I’m supposed to get it, God will reveal what ever I’m missing.  This may be the time, and you may be the conduit; if so, it would be foolish to let it pass.  The issue is ultimate evil.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And the angel said to me, "Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. 

And yet a little, and the wicked is not, And thou hast considered his place, and it is not.


As well you know, dearest brother, these matters are far more than "making a case", and among us more than matters of conjecture, pleasant things for conversation, or even interesting things for speculation. I see you tremble at his word...so any cleverness on my part I fear would be more than hastily answered to my displeasure.
I am not up to saying much in explanation, as I am not equipped, but having tasted that place (of which I am convinced you, and several others have been, if not reside in greater "at homeness" than I could even imagine...) I can in small part testify...it is always present, and now, in His presence.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 5, 2015)

Israel said:


> And the angel said to me, "Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns. "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come.
> 
> And yet a little, and the wicked is not, And thou hast considered his place, and it is not.
> 
> ...



In the loneliness of this dark forest He provides shafts for relief,
Bless you brother.


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## ambush80 (Oct 5, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> In the loneliness of this dark forest He provides shafts for relief,
> Bless you brother.



....which can be found in better ways.


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## Israel (Oct 6, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> ....which can be found in better ways.


Now, that is a remarkable statement. It surely implies a "way" against which measurements are weighed, an absolute of a way, while conceding the rest of the statement. 
I too believe their is a better way than even the sum of all my own life, its experiences, its awarenesses and its conclusions.
The believing in "a way" and somehow falling short of it in absolute of practice is what may lead a man to touch grace.
And produce hope. And hope frees one from shame.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 6, 2015)

Israel said:


> Now, that is a remarkable statement. It surely implies a "way" against which measurements are weighed, an absolute of a way, while conceding the rest of the statement.
> I too believe their is a better way than even the sum of all my own life, its experiences, its awarenesses and its conclusions.
> The believing in "a way" and somehow falling short of it in absolute of practice is what may lead a man to touch grace.
> And produce hope. And hope frees one from shame.



Flipping in here this morning, sipping my coffee, I was caught by this.

"And hope frees one from shame."

And being flippant I thought, " I should ask the dude for scripture on this. Or some short essay, a testing of the spirit, the dude's spirit. Just in case he is secretly wise for being raked over hot coals."

But then I googled "shame" and "hope". And up comes this:


Romans 10:11 - As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Romans 5:5 - And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

And then I thought, I will not ask him any display: No, no long winded web and watch him get stuck in it.

And then I though, what a strange man I am needing to google scripture to test spirits. What a strange brother I am, needing to tease a saint this way.

It is a good thing there is hope on earth as it is in heaven. 

Good morning.

Our Father


Our Father, Who art in heaven 
Hallowed be Thy Name; 
Thy kingdom come, 
Thy will be done, 
on earth as it is in heaven. 
Give us this day our daily bread, 
and forgive us our trespasses, 
as we forgive those who trespass against us; 
and lead us not into temptation, 
but deliver us from evil. Amen.

Since you seem to be on a roll, in the book so to speak, and this tread is about evil, What does " and lead us not into temptation" mean in the statement " and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil."???

Is it simply this: Deliver us from evil and lead us not into temptation or is it something else? Can I be delivered from evil and still be lead into temptation? Ideas? Anyone? Scripture? The guy who wrote this stuff, or the one who first said it, what did he mean by "deliver us from evil" and " lead us not into temptation"? In what way(s) can this be?

Is it perhaps when we forgive with the forgiveness that is in Christ, that is in heaven, we are delivered from the temptation to answer evil with itself? and not answering with evil we are delivered of evil itself, or is there more?


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## Israel (Oct 6, 2015)

Being all too familiar with feeling froggy, willing to poke, willing to "stick my hand in to see if this is for real"... I am not surprised anyone else ever feels so.
But finding the grace to admit it...as you did, well, that just ministers a grace to me I find myself in sore need of.

Grace to you, too, brother.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 9, 2015)

JimD said:


> The paradox you mention is one reason why there are atheists. If God is all powerful, then why would he not just destroy the evil and get it over with or why did he create evil in the first place. Those are great questions and I am not wise enough to give a good answer to it.


A Christian praises God for the existence of evil.


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## JimD (Oct 9, 2015)

Why does a Christian praise God for the existence of evil?


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## hummerpoo (Oct 9, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> A Christian praises God for the existence of evil.



6 
When a trumpet sounds in a city,
    do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city,
    has not the Lord caused it?

7 
Surely the Sovereign Lord does nothing
    without revealing his plan
    to his servants the prophets.

8 
The lion has roared—
    who will not fear?
The Sovereign Lord has spoken—
    who can but prophesy?


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## gordon 2 (Oct 9, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> A Christian praises God for the existence of evil.



Spoken with the profound convictions of a true gentlemen  such as the man General Stonewall Jackson, for example, and this is not trolling. 

Rolling up a flank with the assurance of sacking the Cannanites all along while praising-- is not inconceivable as being genuine in a man's makeup.

Yet all things were made new in Christ--these things are understandable of a man's understanding.


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## ryanh487 (Oct 9, 2015)

Evil is not the opposite of good, but the absence of it.  Evil is the result of disobedience to God's perfect law.  He allows it because obedience and love must be a choice, and the effects of evil show us a stark contrast that highlights the perfect nature of His goodness.  Because of our stubbornness, we must see the evil in the world in order to understand why God's way is the best way.

The lie that Satan told in heaven to deceive the angels, and the lie he told in Eden to deceive man, is that it is possible to be just as good as God without obeying God.  It is for the benefit of all man and heaven that God allow the free will of disobedience to play out and reveal to all creation, seen and unseen, the natural destructive result of straying from the perfect conditions He created the universe to function under.  His will is a set of instructions, not restrictions.  It is the way we were designed to function and be happiest and healthiest.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 9, 2015)

JimD said:


> Why does a Christian praise God for the existence of evil?


To withhold praise would indicate dissatisfaction with God's purpose for evil.


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## ryanh487 (Oct 9, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> To withhold praise would indicate dissatisfaction with God's purpose for evil.



Christians do not praise God FOR evil, they praise God DESPITE evil and for the hope and faith of His promise to rid it from existence, and His ability to convert what the enemy intends for evil into good for our lives and His kingdom.


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## welderguy (Oct 9, 2015)

I like what Job said:
"The Lord giveth,and the Lord taketh away.Blessed be the name of the Lord".


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## hummerpoo (Oct 9, 2015)

Has God revealed through scripture that evil does not accrue to His Glory?

or

Has God revealed through scripture that evil decreases His Glory?

I'm not sure which is the better question, take your pick, or "choose" both.

OK, I decided on the first one.


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## ryanh487 (Oct 9, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> Has God revealed through scripture that evil does not accrue to His Glory?
> 
> or
> 
> ...



God is the creator, so nothing can decrease His glory.  Evil can only separate us from enjoying the glory He wishes to bestow upon us when we deny Him to pursue evil.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 9, 2015)

ryanh487 said:


> God is the creator, so nothing can decrease His glory.  Evil can only separate us from enjoying the glory He wishes to bestow upon us when we deny Him to pursue evil.



Does that not say that evil has power over God.

I did finally decide that I preferred the first question because when evil happens: God's people see His goodness, or His people see His power, or the world see His power, [[[I missed my favorite, or evil defeats evil]]]etc., etc.  Like God said through Amos "who can but prophecy?"


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## gemcgrew (Oct 9, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> Does that not say that evil has power over God.
> 
> I did finally decide that I preferred the first question because when evil happens: God's people see His goodness, or His people see His power, or the world see His power, etc., etc.  Like God said through Amos "who can but prophecy?"


"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

I am also persuaded.


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## ambush80 (Oct 9, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> "For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
> 
> I am also persuaded.



Us Vessels of Wrath only bring glory to God in our evil, Amen?


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## JimD (Oct 9, 2015)

I agree with ryan, that we should thank God no matter what, but I cant thank him for evil. I know everything has a purpose but Id rather praise God for letting me kill evil than for its existence.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 9, 2015)

JimD said:


> I agree with ryan, that we should thank God no matter what, but I cant thank him for evil.


You agree with ryan and oppose ryan in the same sentence.


JimD said:


> I know everything has a purpose but Id rather praise God for letting me kill evil than for its existence.


You know that evil has a purpose and oppose it's existence at the same time.

Look, it is no great wonder as to why this is paradoxical for you. I understand as to why an Atheist would embrace it as paradox, but this is one of the least difficult, least complex teachings for a Christian. My children can defeat the most renown Atheist on the "Problem of evil".


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## JimD (Oct 10, 2015)

I am not an atheist. I am human, so to praise evil is certainly not normal. I have to say I dont know any Christians that praise God for evil. I understand what your saying and why your saying it, but I cannot praise evil. I would be very happy to kill evil things and people just like David and many others, whom God loved did.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 11, 2015)

JimD said:


> I am not an atheist. I am human, so to praise evil is certainly not normal.


To praise God for the existence of evil is not the same as praising evil. A Christian is not a Pantheist.


JimD said:


> I have to say I dont know any Christians that praise God for evil. I understand what your saying and why your saying it, but I cannot praise evil.


This only shows that you do not understand what or why I am saying.


JimD said:


> I would be very happy to kill evil things and people just like David and many others, whom God loved did.


Would you be aware of "whom God loved" if evil did not exist?
"The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4

"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory," Romans 9:22,23


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## welderguy (Oct 11, 2015)

JimD is right in his thinking,even though I see what Gem is saying also.We should absolutely hate evil but realize that it has its purpose in God's perfect plan also.He allows evil but is storing up His wrath for it.

Proverbs 8:13
" The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate."

Psalm 97:10
" Ye that love the Lord, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked."


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## hummerpoo (Oct 11, 2015)

welderguy said:


> JimD is right in his thinking,even though I see what Gem is saying also.We should absolutely hate evil but realize that it has its purpose in God's perfect plan also.He allows evil but is storing up His wrath for it.
> 
> Proverbs 8:13
> " The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate."
> ...



To desire that, in accomplishing His purpose, God had created His economy in accord with our desires, is to desire that we be God.

To declare that God’s economy fulfils His purpose of creating a people for Himself is to revere (fear) God.

 “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.”


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## Israel (Oct 12, 2015)

The knowledge "of" good and evil includes nothing in it that would imply a discerning between.
I hung a light to work on my truck, it was "very good" to me...then the sun came out...and the shadow it cast required its removing so I could see more than a narrow lit area.
And even now, as I may see by the sun, its light will be put to shame...soon.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 12, 2015)

Israel said:


> The knowledge "of" good and evil includes nothing in it that would imply a discerning between.
> I hung a light to work on my truck, it was "very good" to me...then the sun came out...and the shadow it cast required its removing so I could see more than a narrow lit area.
> And even now, as I may see by the sun, its light will be put to shame...soon.



And all of God's people said "Hallelujah!!"

But is the enthusiasm accompanied by a bit of apprehension?  Does our imperfect medium function as both glass and mirror?  Only then, when we see the Other perfectly  and ourselves perfectly, can we truly appreciate the grace given, and truly shout "Hallelujah";  Only then can we truly sing:


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## JimD (Oct 12, 2015)

I understand God uses evil to do his will. For instance Hitler killed millions of Jews, but all of that evil helped Israel get back their homeland. I also understand as Israel stated, that good and evil are dependent on our limited, personal world. I also understand thanking God in "good" times and "bad" times and that most times when something happens that we view as "bad" can turn out to be a wonderful blessing. I'm just trying to wrap my head around thanking God for evil.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 12, 2015)

Can we look at something like AIDS and cancer as a form of evil used by God make his plan happen? Evil plants and animals if you will doing the work of God. We look at evilness as just something man is capable of but if evil is from God then even a tornado is part of God's evil plan.
Maybe we only see evil as our way of describing events yet if everything is in God's control then perhaps we should praise evil as it is part of God's plan. Why would it be wrong to praise evil knowing it is God's plan? As mentioned then if Hitler was part of God's plan to redeem elected Jews then we should praise Hitler.
If my dog dies from eating a poisonous mushroom or shot by an evil dog hater, both were part of God's plan. Both events show God is in total control and that evil is necessary to show God's goodness.
You can't have goodness without evilness. Without Adam's sin, we would not have needed Jesus is the best example I know.

I guess the paradox is why didn't God just use goodness? Why was evil even needed as a way to identify goodness? Without evilness Jesus would not have been needed. Every one would have eternal life. We would all be good. 
Jesus and the Holy Spirit would not have ever existed as equal but separate eternal entities of the same God. Those entities of the Godhead would have never existed without evil. Their whole eternal from the beginning purpose was based on the existence of evil. If one says evilness is from man then why was Jesus with God from the beginning?


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## Israel (Oct 12, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Can we look at something like AIDS and cancer as a form of evil used by God make his plan happen? Evil plants and animals if you will doing the work of God. We look at evilness as just something man is capable of but if evil is from God then even a tornado is part of God's evil plan.
> Maybe we only see evil as our way of describing events yet if everything in in God's control then perhaps we should praise evil as it is part of God's plan. Why would it be wrong to praise evil knowing it is God's plan?
> If my dog dies from eating a poisonous mushroom or shot by an evil dog hater, both were part of God's plan. Both events show God is in total control and that evil is necessary to show God's goodness.
> You can't have goodness without evilness. Without Adam's sin, we would not have needed Jesus is the best example I know.


It's interesting you mention AIDS. Often pooh poohed by the intelligent medical community among whom I labor I would say "AIDS has not killed a single person"

Do you understand the saying of this?


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## gordon 2 (Oct 12, 2015)

JimD said:


> I understand God uses evil to do his will. For instance Hitler killed millions of Jews, but all of that evil helped Israel get back their homeland. I also understand as Israel stated, that good and evil are dependent on our limited, personal world. I also understand thanking God in "good" times and "bad" times and that most times when something happens that we view as "bad" can turn out to be a wonderful blessing. I'm just trying to wrap my head around thanking God for evil.



I think you have good reason JimD to fret doing so.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, (Romans 1:18)

What of God's wrath is being revealed from heaven? My understanding is that people bring on evil onto themselves. Or it is conditioned into man by man to value evil, and that it is not  God that harden's hearts per say. I would suggest that man has free will  and although God has designed his freedom, God is not responsible for the evil that man does.

"Let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles" (Hebrews 12:2).


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## gemcgrew (Oct 13, 2015)

Israel said:


> It's interesting you mention AIDS. Often pooh poohed by the intelligent medical community among whom I labor I would say "AIDS has not killed a single person"
> 
> Do you understand the saying of this?


Would you prefer induction or deduction? Or would you have us to go straight to the source of the matter?


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## Israel (Oct 13, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> Would you prefer induction or deduction? Or would you have us to go straight to the source of the matter?




Ahhh,

He kisses the lips Who gives a right answer.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 13, 2015)

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. ( John 15:6)

Who is the actor who brings down fire but the  men who do not abide themselves and not God and not God but men who gathering them up  and scatter them  and feed them to their fires and burning themselves up in their evil ways?

 God's ways are not evil!

 Who cast men into the fire and they are burned? " And men gather them" not God. Thanking God for the evil committed and directed by men who do not abide is a strange worship. Is it a commandment of God, of Jesus that I should do evil to a man in His name?

10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

 Abide in what? Are the men of God set to do evil for God? Abide they in what? The men who gather and burn are they saints? Does the Holy Spirit in them send them commission to do evil? Nope. But scripture states that "men gather and burn". Men do evil, not God.


12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

It is my understanding that men are trapped in the knowledge of good and evil and this knowledge which fashions man's existence is not of God. And being not of God, the evil in this world is not from God, but issues from man.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 13, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> I think you have good reason JimD to fret doing so.
> 
> The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, (Romans 1:18)
> 
> ...



Possibly so but if we delve deeper into the eternal deity of the Trinity, why were three parts needed? Why was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?
If in the beginning there was no evil then why was Jesus already in the plan? Why was a Comforter already standing by as well?


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## gordon 2 (Oct 13, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Possibly so but if we delve deeper into the eternal deity of the Trinity, why were three parts needed? why was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?
> If in the beginning there was no evil then why was Jesus already in the plan? Why was a Comforter already standing by as well?



Good questions. I'm not certain I have the answers in whole or in part. But here goes


1)Why were three parts ( trinity) needed?

  Needed is perhaps not the correct word here, because God was before his word was, yet his word is so filled with His spirit that his word is Him. So from our perspective as man and man in a fallen world, God is in communion with man a trinity as man's mind now understands his presence in the world. God is his word, was before his word, and his presence as will and Spirit proceeds from His word. His word speaks life and all things into existence--except evil. 


2)Why was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world?

 Well I'm not totally certain  on this about the world before the fall, but as to the world after the fall, which mean our world now, the one we live into , the Lamb, , the divine person that walked with Adam and Eve was slain for their infidelity to Him. Or the heart of the divine person that walked with man before the fall was pierced from the get go regards the world we now live in.


4)If in the beginning there was no evil then why was Jesus already in the plan?

 Is Jesus a person unique to the trinity, a man so infused by the will and the spirit of God as to be indistinguishable from Him an agent uniquely present in the life of man  so as to fight off uniquely evil if he walked with Adam and Eve before the fall? What evil need his interventions then?

Walking with Adam and Eve and the saints throughout history was his communion with them only ever as a salvific presence? Jesus tells us in the Gospel of John what his joy is and his joy is to abide in divine love. Is not this love shared even with the sinners of our world, let alone the faithful? So salvation itself is not uniquely the purpose of the Trinity.


5)Why was a Comforter already standing by as well?

Does God's love comfort us? Was it comforting in the Garden when in silence man and God knew that  their communion was and later that... "it was good." It was simply natural as concerns man's perspective then? Is it not this same loving relationship that we crave? Is it for this purpose that man can be saved from the catastrophes due to sin? All teaching merits have their Alma mater in God's love --which love is Him, maybe?

Hope this helps, it is the best we four can come up with right now.  Waiting on your 3ed question bros.... 

(I'm am going to venture something crude in the hopes that someday it might mean something in a positive way to someone. The trinity is the Father. The trinity is Jesus. The trinity is the Holy Spirit. They are in this way all three, one. And in the beginning there was the word, but before the word God was. So many have shared Him from silent prayer. )


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## hummerpoo (Oct 13, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> ... God's evil plan.
> ... we should praise evil ... we should praise Hitler.



Have you tested this concept/precept with scripture?

They have not been advocated in this discussion.  They have been incorrectly inferred.




> I guess the paradox is why didn't God just use goodness?



See post #35.

Study help: Froward
FRO'WARD, a. [L. versus: turned or looking from.]

Perverse, that is, turning from, with aversion or reluctance; not willing to yield or comply with what is required; unyielding; ungovernable; refractory; disobedient; peevish; as a froward child.

>>>>>> "why didn't God just use goodness?" seems to be precisely what Solomon identified as one of the evils he hates: "a froward mouth".  <<<<<<


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 13, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> Have you tested this concept/precept with scripture?
> 
> It has not been advocated in this discussion.  It has been incorrectly inferred.
> 
> ...



In other words even though God created evil or allowed man to become evil, we should not praise God's plan when it comes to evil. Perhaps we see it as evil when actually it's God's way of showing love, goodness, and election. Evilness must exist in order to have love, goodness and election. Just like sin was needed to show us that we couldn't be righteous and therefore needed a Messiah from the sin we couldn't escape from. 
To try and grasp this concept of God in that respect is being froward. In other words, we shouldn't question God when it comes to his purpose of evil. Therefore we shouldn't praise evil.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 13, 2015)

Maybe God didn't create evil but uses it for his plan after it became available. God uses it to attain an objective after someone or thing created it.

If this is true it doesn't do much to explain the omniscience of God. It still reverts back that in order to have "good" we must have "bad." Without evil for a base line, no one is good or either we are all good. One can't exist without the other. I believe this is God's plan. It's used in almost every cowboy movie I watched as a child. White hat or black hat with degrees in between.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 13, 2015)

Art, I will try to get back to this later with a few specifics, but, your phasing seems to indicate an assumption that we can out-smart, or skirt around, or something other than simple subservience to God.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 13, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe God didn't create evil but uses it for his plan after it became available. God uses it to attain an objective after someone or thing created it.
> 
> If this is true it doesn't do much to explain the omniscience of God. It still reverts back that in order to have "good" we must have "bad." Without evil for a base line, no one is good or either we are all good. One can't exist without the other. I believe this is God's plan. It's used in almost every cowboy movie I watched as a child. White hat or black hat with degrees in between.



 Permit me.  I am inserting the question mark in your 3ed question.

3. Maybe God didn't create evil but uses it for his plan after it became available. God uses it to attain an objective after someone or thing created it?

Remember what Paul said about guys who just decided to play Jesus for a fool and go on sinning. He said something like, leave them to the world, to their evil minds or Satan so that they might be worn by the world they chose and perhaps return to the fold. Remember this?

1 Chrintians 5:5

hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.


Now did Paul say hand them to God? And so handing him over to God, the evil caused by God, so that perhaps "his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord". NO! He said, hand him over to SATAN,<<<<.

The evil is clearly not God's. It comes about by a person's choice and or the realm he/she inhabits which is SATAN'S and NOT our Savior's. Right?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 13, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Permit me.  I am inserting the question mark in your 3ed question.
> 
> 3. Maybe God didn't create evil but uses it for his plan after it became available. God uses it to attain an objective after someone or thing created it?
> 
> ...



But we have verses about God using evil as part of his plan. 

Isaiah 45:7 says he formed good and bad;

I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.

2 Kings 6:33
And while he yet talked with them, behold, the messenger came down unto him: and he said, Behold, this evil is of the LORD; what should I wait for the LORD any longer?

Lamentations 3:38
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Maybe it's OK for God to use evil but he doesn't want or allow us to use it. In the Corinthians 5:5 example it was from the man. It appears in that example the man had freewill to use evilness and God didn't like it. It doesn't mean God didn't create evil, it just means we can't use it but he can. Perhaps. Maybe?


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## gordon 2 (Oct 13, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> But we have verses about God using evil as part of his plan.
> 
> Isaiah 45:7 says he formed good and bad;
> 
> ...



Just because  a dude says, before running his sword through a man, that it is evil from God does not mean he speaks with authority to say such a thing. I suspect that he recognized it was evil to do what he was doing and/or he was acting in self defense the best he knew how.

 And you will find a man with incomplete knowledge in Lamentation 3. His statements concerning God doing evil are in question. For example: 
"Is it not from the mouth of the Most High
    that both calamities and good things come?"

Notice the question mark. This poem speaks of what the author or main person in the poem, has in faith and knowledge. He is not perfect. The person in the poem or the narrator wants to hand back to man what he claims man has done to him. He prayers God to do evil or promote evil according to his understanding of God and evil-- which is basically an eye for an eye, but spare my both my eyes. 

Look what he says to God, after he has just said that God is compassionate and ask yourself is the writer of the poem is on the level?  Ask yourself if this is Christ, or the Holy Spirit? Can this be the Father?



Pay them back what they deserve, Lord,
    for what their hands have done.
65 Put a veil over their hearts,
    and may your curse be on them!
66 Pursue them in anger and destroy them
    from under the heavens of the Lord.


 Isaiah 45.
And...They will say of me, ‘In the Lord alone
    are deliverance and strength.’”
All who have raged against him
    will come to him and be put to shame.
25 But all the descendants of Israel
    will find deliverance in the Lord
    and will make their boast in him. ( Isaiah  45:24-25)


“Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
....

to the one who says to a father,
    ‘What have you begotten?’
or to a mother,
    ‘What have you brought to birth?’ ( Isaiah 45: 9-10)

When I read Isaiah 45 I am not convinced that God wishes to visit evil on sinners. Rather it points, to me at least, that sinners create their own destruction if they are without Him. People say that God will put people to shame, but I don't think Christ says that and I don't think Isaiah thinks that, and I don't think that. Even in persecution, in exile, in deportations, in war, a people can look at God in the eye and say this is not you Lord-- and be right.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 13, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> In other words even though God created evil or allowed man to become evil, we should not praise God's plan when it comes to evil.



We should never praise anything but God.



> Perhaps we see it as evil when actually it's God's way of showing love, goodness, and election. Evilness must exist in order to have love, goodness and election.



If I affirm this absolute would I not be saying that I am equal to God in my omniscience?
>>edit: I wanted to say "Yes, but ..." to the first sentence, but the but got way too complicated.<<



> Just like sin was needed to show us that we couldn't be righteous and therefore needed a Messiah from the sin we couldn't escape from.




Probably an ok thinking tool, but the connection is flimsy, or nonexistent.



> To try and grasp this concept of God in that respect is being froward. In other words, we shouldn't question God when it comes to his purpose of evil. Therefore we shouldn't praise evil.



We should never question God, and again, we should never praise anything but God.

Humbly exploring God's revelation is not questioning God.




Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe God didn't create evil but uses it for his plan after it became available. God uses it to attain an objective after someone or thing created it.
> 
> If this is true it doesn't do much to explain the omniscience of God. It still reverts back that in order to have "good" we must have "bad." Without evil for a base line, no one is good or either we are all good. One can't exist without the other. I believe this is God's plan. It's used in almost every cowboy movie I watched as a child. White hat or black hat with degrees in between.



Are you SERIOUS!

Man’s imagination produces something that is possible in his mind; then, with God reacting to his imagination, he builds on the imagined possibility, as though it were eternal truth, until he is fully comforted by his doctrine.

From “maybe” to “I believe” … just like that.
Or did it start with “I believe”?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 13, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> Are you SERIOUS!
> 
> Man’s imagination produces something that is possible in his mind; then, with God reacting to his imagination, he builds on the imagined possibility, as though it were eternal truth, until he is fully comforted by his doctrine.
> 
> ...



I was with you until this. God reacting to man's imagination?
Maybe you could explain this concept a little better.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 13, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I was with you until this. God reacting to man's imagination?
> Maybe you could explain this concept a little better.



It's my, rather poor, satirical parallel of God using a man's creation to achieve His objective.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 14, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> It's my, rather poor, satirical parallel of God using a man's creation to achieve His objective.



Understood. If evil was from man then God would have had to change his plan to meet man's evil invention.

It would be like God changing his plan because the North won the war instead of the South. Meaning God had planned for the South to win but man intervened and changed his plan. This made God have to change his master plan based on what man does.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 14, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Understood. If evil was from man then God would have had to change his plan to meet man's evil invention.
> 
> It would be like God changing his plan because the North won the war instead of the South. Meaning God had planned for the South to win but man intervened and changed his plan. This made God have to change his master plan based on what man does.


A believer has no choice but to mock such a god, one that "either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked."


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## hummerpoo (Oct 14, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Understood. If evil was from man then God would have had to change his plan to meet man's evil invention.
> 
> It would be like God changing his plan because the North won the war instead of the South. Meaning God had planned for the South to win but man intervened and changed his plan. This made God have to change his master plan based on what man does.



Yes, the movie I talked about a while back, The Adjustment Bureau, is Hollywood's version.

I did some more work on your previous post, which is somewhat out of place because I'm so slow, but it might still provide further clarification.

__________________________________

In my eagerness to respond to as many points as possible, I missed, what may be, the big one.



Artfuldodger said:


> In other words even though God created evil or allowed man to become evil, we should not praise God['s plan omitted] when it comes to evil.



This is backwards.  We should praise God in all that He created and all that He does, including evil and His sovereignty over evil.

Look at the definition of “froward”, the adjective describing the speech, verbal or nonverbal, which is righteously hated (Pr. 8:13).

“turning from, with aversion or reluctance; not willing to yield or comply with what is required; unyielding; ungovernable; refractory; disobedient; peevish; as a froward child.”

Remember what GEM said:



gemcgrew said:


> To withhold praise would indicate dissatisfaction with God's purpose for evil.



And the example of that dissatisfaction:



Artfuldodger said:


> why didn't God just use goodness?



This statement is “turning from,” the revealed sovereignty of God over all of His creation, including evil, “with aversion or reluctance” to accept that evil is ordained for a people who are “not willing to yield or comply with what is required”, and are “unyielding; ungovernable; refractory; disobedient; and peevish”, just like “a froward child.”

Many interpretations attempt to minimize the importance of the “unpardonable sin” and assure people that they needn’t worry about it.  But, in Mat. 12, the statement, by the Pharisee’s, that prompts Jesus to speak of the blasphemy that will not be forgiven is: “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.” Is this anything other than giving Beelsebul credit for that which is done by the power of God?  If we refuse to give God plenary credit for that which He accomplishes through evil, by assigning the initiation of that which is beneficial for God’s people, to another entity, are we doing anything other than that which was done by the Pharisee’s?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 14, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> Remember what GEM said:
> And the example of that dissatisfaction:
> 
> Originally Posted by Artfuldodger;
> ...



Good explanation, I'm beginning to understand this point of view better. It is a deep subject or something that takes a deeper study to eventually grasp.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 14, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Good explanation, I'm beginning to understand this point of view better. It is a deep subject or something that takes a deeper study to eventually grasp.



I don't know how deep it is, but you have to keep digging through the sandy flesh 'til you get to the solid rock of the Spirit; set the foundation there and start building toward the top.


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## Israel (Oct 15, 2015)

It could be a spiritual exercise of sorts. Were one to be inclined to find fault with being thankful in and for all things, then set ones heart to be thankful for "all" the good things...scrupulously, meticulously, diligently...before God. If, in seeking to maintain an honest transaction before Him, one comes across a "thing " of which it might be spoken "I am not sure if I should be thankful for this...I will leave the discerning to you believing you will show me..." something could happen.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 15, 2015)

It has been mentioned that we can sometimes see those things which are evil turn out to be good (a blessing).  It can be argued, I think successfully, that evil always turns out to be good, but that does not always occur within our perception; the thesis of such an argument, being that all creation accrues to the Glory of God (blesses God), and that which brings Glory to God cannot be evil, and is, therefore, good.

Now, the eventual good, even if perceived, is seldom, if ever, perceived before it is manifested; and whether the eventual good is perceived or unperceived, because we are trapped in time, we experience/perceive the evil as evil.  Can we truthfully thank God for any evil that is perceived as evil?

We can certainly praise God for the existence of evil (His creation of evil) if we believe that evil, as part of creation, accrues to His Glory, because His people desire nothing other than that their God be glorified.  If we cannot truthfully thank God for evil, His people can but praise Him for evil.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 15, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> It has been mentioned that we can sometimes see those things which are evil turn out to be good (a blessing).  It can be argued, I think successfully, that evil always turns out to be good, but that does not always occur within our perception; the thesis of such an argument, being that all creation accrues to the Glory of God (blesses God), and that which brings Glory to God cannot be evil, and is, therefore, good.
> 
> Now, the eventual good, even if perceived, is seldom, if ever, perceived before it is manifested; and whether the eventual good is perceived or unperceived, because we are trapped in time, we experience/perceive the evil as evil.  Can we truthfully thank God for any evil that is perceived as evil?
> 
> We can certainly praise God for the existence of evil (His creation of evil) if we believe that evil, as part of creation, accrues to His Glory, because His people desire nothing other than that their God be glorified.  If we cannot truthfully thank God for evil, His people can but praise Him for evil.



I know you are not addressing me with this resume.  Yet, to my way of thinking and my understanding of the origin of evil, I  don't agree with the apprehension you  have regards evil.

For me the origin of evil has it's embryo in the sin of Adam and Eve and which becomes evil in Cain and not in the penalty God imposed for the original sin.

 The penalty for original sin by God can be said to be the restriction of man's freedom. ( Because if left with the freedom he has and the knowledge of good and evil he now post original sin --he is no longer acting in the image of God's love-- and a danger to all of creation).

 When Cain decides to murder his brother he is committing the original sin all over again. He is doing this because he is playing God in that he is limiting man's freedom--but he can't do it with God's competence and only makes thing many times worse.

I cannot say in all honesty now and with integrity that the freedom restriction God alots to man through the span of physical life, and for man's suffering within it, is evil.

I will account that it is evil for man to declare to himself that he has God's right hand in determining  man's lifespan and that through the suffering  he can cause in the life of man, he can impose his will as a fallen creature and call it God's will. And it feels evil to me to praise God for man's fall and the sins he continues to commit for it. It feels good that on the other hand that God would restrict man's freedom so that man could have borders from which to collect himself and willingly return God's chastisement with affection for his will--not by committing evil acts--but by doing good--as Christ tells us to, for example.

Man is not trapped in time. The physical aspect of our soul is born in a world of good and evil which has borders outside of which it does not and cannot exist ( because the creator deemed it this way) and ,- our spirit nature needs not these borders.

 For those who love God and good, life is not limited to the limits God placed on our  physical freedom. Man has the freedom to chose God's salvation and to return to paradise starting in the here and now.  To call God's salvation in any way evil or a justification for evil in the world of good and evil-- seems evil or at least an erroneous perception entertained by the fallen actor-- and not at all heavenly .


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> I know you are not addressing me with this resume.  Yet, to my way of thinking and my understanding of the origin of evil, I  don't agree with the apprehension you  have regards evil.
> 
> For me the origin of evil has it's embryo in the sin of Adam and Eve and which becomes evil in Cain and not in the penalty God imposed for the original sin.
> 
> ...



If the origin of evil is with Adam, what about Satan who was evil before Adam. Perhaps Adam was just the first man that manifest the already existing evil on the earth.
Satan's evil was manifest in his temptation to Eve. Eve was evil by falling but she had no covenant. 
For Adam to fall, evil had to be present for him to fall into it.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 15, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> I know you are not addressing me with this resume.  Yet, to my way of thinking and my understanding of the origin of evil, I  don't agree with the apprehension you  have regards evil.
> 
> For me the origin of evil has it's embryo in the sin of Adam and Eve and which becomes evil in Cain and not in the penalty God imposed for the original sin.
> 
> ...



If man, his freedom, his glory, and his being were the reason for creation your arguments would have some validity.  That is not the case.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2015)

If the earth and man continues to exist then there will always be evil. If Christ returns and God destroys the earth and all present then only good will exist. There will not be any need for evil as a baseline for goodness when we are all good. I would think that in order for this to exist "flesh" must be eliminated. 
Yet "flesh" existed in the form of Adam and evil existed. Wasn't Adam good at some point? Even in the presence of evil, Adam was good.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 15, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> If man, his freedom, his glory, and his being were the reason for creation your arguments would have some validity.  That is not the case.



Can you explain this a little more? What is the case that makes my argument invalid?


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## gordon 2 (Oct 15, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> If the origin of evil is with Adam, what about Satan who was evil before Adam. Perhaps Adam was just the first man that manifest the already existing evil on the earth.
> Satan's evil was manifest in his temptation to Eve. Eve was evil by falling but she had no covenant.
> For Adam to fall, evil had to be present for him to fall into it.



Satan, a rebelling spirit is said to have existed before Adam in Scripture. Did God create this spirit of rebellion? When we are in the presence of the things of God do we need to be jealous? Put yourself in Eve's footprints and God is getting more attention than you are? What is the cure for jealousy? Is it not love?


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## hummerpoo (Oct 15, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Can you explain this a little more? What is the case that makes my argument invalid?



I doubt that I can clarify, it's a simple issue.
Either man exists to serve God's purpose,
or God exists to serve man's purpose.

Every nuance applied to the former is the latter.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 15, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> If the earth and man continues to exist then there will always be evil. If Christ returns and God destroys the earth and all present then only good will exist. There will not be any need for evil as a baseline for goodness when we are all good. I would think that in order for this to exist "flesh" must be eliminated.
> Yet "flesh" existed in the form of Adam and evil existed. Wasn't Adam good at some point? Even in the presence of evil, Adam was good.





3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he* predestined us for adoption to sonship[c] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[d] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.*


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## gordon 2 (Oct 15, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> I doubt that I can clarify, it's a simple issue.
> Either man exists to serve God's purpose,
> or God exists to serve man's purpose.
> 
> Every nuance applied to the former is the latter.



Ok. How can a blind surgeon (man) serve the purpose of sawing off a man's blown up leg? let alone a non-believer, one blind to the will of God ministering God to the born and unborn and even one to wish and to hope evil on others knowing God's will, to be minister of God's love yet in an upside down way-- minister to the sick and dying, the fallen, on man's battlefields? Satan as God's necessary  minister and surgeon general is very foreign to me.

 I will leave it at this, but to that man, to that man for which   the coveting from his will justifies any method, ---it would indeed be  miraculous that God would chose such a man in the medical tents of fallen man's battlefields.

But my understanding---perhaps ---is in need of mercy.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 15, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Ok. How can a blind surgeon (man) serve the purpose of sawing off a man's blown up leg? let alone a non-believer, one blind to the will of God ministering God to the born and unborn and even one to wish and to hope evil on others knowing God's will, to be minister of God's love yet in an upside down way-- minister to the sick and dying, the fallen, on man's battlefields? Satan as God's necessary  minister and surgeon general is very foreign to me.
> 
> I will leave it at this, but to that man, to that man for which   the coveting from his will justifies any method, ---it would indeed be  miraculous that God would chose such a man in the medical tents of fallen man's battlefields.
> 
> But my understanding---perhaps ---is in need of mercy.



Sorry, I don't understand.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 15, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Ok. How can a blind surgeon (man) serve the purpose of sawing off a man's blown up leg? let alone a non-believer, one blind to the will of God ministering God to the born and unborn and even one to wish and to hope evil on others knowing God's will, to be minister of God's love yet in an upside down way-- minister to the sick and dying, the fallen, on man's battlefields? Satan as God's necessary  minister and surgeon general is very foreign to me.
> 
> I will leave it at this, but to that man, to that man for which   the coveting from his will justifies any method, ---it would indeed be  miraculous that God would chose such a man in the medical tents of fallen man's battlefields.
> 
> But my understanding---perhaps ---is in need of mercy.


"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." Genesis 50:20

God is in the answer. Where is God in your question?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2015)

If evil ever ends then it will be from God. Satan was allowed to partake of evilness while still in Heaven. When we go to Heaven after this earthly life, I'm assuming God will have ended evil otherwise we will still be able to partake of evilness just as Satan did from Heaven.

Again we get back to using words like God allowed or controlled or if man was able to become evil.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 15, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." Genesis 50:20
> 
> God is in the answer. Where is God in your question?



In this case of 50:20, I read " meant" as turned. God turned it to good. The designs that Joseph's brothers has for him, God turned them to good.

But does this mean that the designs Joseph's brothers had were good? No. God turned them to good. 

And how did He do this? Joseph forgave his brothers.

 The designs of God are greater than man's evil.  But man's evil is not God's evil. God is not an agent of evil. Joseph and his brothers are they not a type of God's salvation in our Lord Jesus Savior? Jesus forgives our sins, not unlike Joseph forgiving his brother's sins or evil toward him. And in doing so many are saved --or turned to good.

So the turning of evil to good is in the forgiveness of evil or sin. God is not the agent in the evil, but in the good of forgiving--forgiving being an feature of love.

--------------

And regards having the answer in a question posed. I know of only one other discipline that claims this. The Stoics do claim that the answer to a question is indeed in the question itself. And this is what makes logic valid perhaps--according to them. 

Can you tell me how you came to this idea that the answer to a question is in the question. Did you find this in scripture? You can message me, if you don't what to mention it here. As this is purely Gordie trying to understand man and his mind--both in Christ and out.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 15, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> Sorry, I don't understand.[/QUOTE
> 
> Don't be sorry. Pray for me perhaps.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 16, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> In this case of 50:20, I read " meant" as turned.


I read "meant" as meant. 


gordon 2 said:


> And regards having the answer in a question posed. I know of only one other discipline that claims this. The Stoics do claim that the answer to a question is indeed in the question itself. And this is what makes logic valid perhaps--according to them.
> 
> Can you tell me how you came to this idea that the answer to a question is in the question. Did you find this in scripture? You can message me, if you don't what to mention it here. As this is purely Gordie trying to understand man and his mind--both in Christ and out.


I reject Stoicism. You are assuming the opposite of what I said.

As far as your "blind surgeon(man)" argument goes, God gives us a clear example of a particular blind man's existence. I am not of a mind to argue against his example.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 16, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> I read "meant" as meant.
> 
> I reject Stoicism. You are assuming the opposite of what I said.
> 
> As far as your "blind surgeon(man)" argument goes, God gives us a clear example of a particular blind man's existence. I am not of a mind to argue against his example.



And so it is that you see, and perhaps I don't. It is my hope that the verse you used to make your point, 50:20, ministered to you as it did to me. I thank you for it.

 It has in reality touched my heart with reassurance, perhaps not unlike Joseph's words touched his brother's hearts with reassurance. Verse 21. GBU

Genesis 50:20Wycliffe Bible (WYC)

20 Ye thought evil of me, and God turned it into good, that he should enhance me, as ye see in this present time, and that he should make safe many peoples; (Ye thought to do evil to me, but God turned it into good, and he used what you did to me to advance me, as ye see at this present time, and by doing so he hath saved many people...)


Genesis 50:201599 Geneva Bible (GNV)

20 When ye thought evil against me, God disposed it to good, that he might bring to pass, as it is this day, and save much people alive.

Genesis 50:20Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

20 You thought evil against me: but God turned it into good, that he might exalt me, as at present you see, and might save many people.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 16, 2015)

Gordon, your red herring(Stoic) prevents me from taking you seriously.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 16, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> Gordon, your red herring(Stoic) prevents me from taking you seriously.




Ok. However, I am serious. I am probably naive of something...

In any case, I am moving on... I still take you seriously and have lots of respect for you. Thanks for trying to help me.


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