# Just like the Bible said.



## ambush80 (Sep 23, 2015)

It has come to pass as prophesied.


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## 660griz (Sep 23, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> It has come to pass as prophesied.



Amen.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 23, 2015)

I'm just seeing a big, useless white space -- kind of like Eric Montross.


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## ambush80 (Sep 23, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> I'm just seeing a big, useless white space -- kind of like Eric Montross.




http://www.nytimes.com/video/opinio...=video-area&video-click-enabled-with-msg=true


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## centerpin fan (Sep 23, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/video/opinio...=video-area&video-click-enabled-with-msg=true



At 7:51, it's about six minutes over my limit, but I get the gist from the title.


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## ambush80 (Sep 23, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> At 7:51, it's about six minutes over my limit, but I get the gist from the title.



Eric Montross was cool.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 23, 2015)

It is all fulfilled.
 Thanks for the video I may share that with some of my preterist friends.


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## drippin' rock (Sep 24, 2015)

"Like nails down a chalkboard."  

That is an accurate description.


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## welderguy (Sep 24, 2015)

drippin' rock said:


> "Like nails down a chalkboard."
> 
> That is an accurate description.



The carnal mind is enmity against God.


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## drippin' rock (Sep 24, 2015)

welderguy said:


> The carnal mind is enmity against God.



Nails on a chalkboard you are.


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## welderguy (Sep 24, 2015)

drippin' rock said:


> Nails on a chalkboard you are.



I understand.It's by design.You just gotta roll with it.


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## ambush80 (Sep 24, 2015)

As an exercise I tried to learn to appreciate the sound of nails down a chalkboard.  I got so far as being able to stand it with little discomfort.


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## ambush80 (Sep 24, 2015)

drippin' rock said:


> "Like nails down a chalkboard."
> 
> That is an accurate description.



Watching people pray almost makes me cry.


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## drippin' rock (Sep 24, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I understand.It's by design.You just gotta roll with it.



So you are using your faith and scripture to annoy people?  That seems like a step in the wrong direction.


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## drippin' rock (Sep 24, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Watching people pray almost makes me cry.



Was chatting with a fellow the other day that keeps bees. It is a subject that interests me, so I was keen to hear what he had to say. At one point he says, "honey is straight from God."  At first I thought he was just saying how much he really liked honey.  Then I realized that was his way of explaining where it comes from. Didn't listen much after that.


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## ambush80 (Sep 24, 2015)

drippin' rock said:


> So you are using your faith and scripture to annoy people?  That seems like a step in the wrong direction.



I think he's saying that it's prophesied that people will get annoyed at God talk and call it crazy.

It reminds me of Fight Club when the members of Project Mayhem tell Ed Norton's character "You told us you would say that."


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## ambush80 (Sep 24, 2015)

drippin' rock said:


> Was chatting with a fellow the other day that keeps bees. It is a subject that interests me, so I was keen to hear what he had to say. At one point he says, "honey is straight from God."  At first I thought he was just saying how much he really liked honey.  Then I realized that was his way of explaining where it comes from. Didn't listen much after that.




I was thinking the other day about how logically consistent someone like Gemcgrew's position is.  

Step 1.  God is good and everything He does is good and Righteous.

Now you can insert _ANYTHING_; any scenario no matter how insane or unpalatable and still sleep like a baby.

Try it.


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## drippin' rock (Sep 24, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> I think he's saying that it's prophesied that people will get annoyed at God talk and call it crazy.
> 
> It reminds me of Fight Club when the members of Project Mayhem tell Ed Norton's character "You told us you would say that."


 probably. I was linking that comment with the others where he seems to get enjoyment from antagonizing non Believers. I get the sense of righteous arrogance.


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## drippin' rock (Sep 24, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> I was thinking the other day about how logically consistent someone like Gemcgrew's position is.
> 
> Step 1.  God is good and everything He does is good and Righteous.
> 
> ...



I have tried it. That was my life until I left home.


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## ambush80 (Sep 24, 2015)

drippin' rock said:


> I have tried it. That was my life until I left home.



It works.  You just have to fall off the cliff into absurdity first.


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## fireman32 (Sep 24, 2015)

drippin' rock said:


> Was chatting with a fellow the other day that keeps bees. It is a subject that interests me, so I was keen to hear what he had to say. At one point he says, "honey is straight from God."  At first I thought he was just saying how much he really liked honey.  Then I realized that was his way of explaining where it comes from. Didn't listen much after that.



You should try it, it's fun.  Make sure you get a suit, a couple of stings may have you singing sweet Jesus.


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## drippin' rock (Sep 25, 2015)

fireman32 said:


> You should try it, it's fun.  Make sure you get a suit, a couple of stings may have you singing sweet Jesus.



I would like to one day. Looks like it costs around 500 or so to get set up. Don't have that kind of cash lying around.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 25, 2015)

So let me get this straight, religion is out dated, so now Atheist, who don't believe in religion have formed their very own religion and even churches ( I understand there is an international movement in this direction as well) and all is now better? 

Looks like the denial of coming full circle to me. At some point every man realizes he cannot be his own deity, even if it's as late as his death bed. 

Thanks for posting the video, it was a great source of dichotomous humor.


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## 660griz (Sep 25, 2015)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> So let me get this straight, religion is out dated, so now Atheist, who don't believe in religion have formed their very own religion and even churches ( I understand there is an international movement in this direction as well) and all is now better?



I knew this was coming.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 25, 2015)

660griz said:


> I knew this was coming.



You have to view the movie as a spectator, not as a participant to get a better take on it.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 25, 2015)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> You have to view the movie as a spectator, not as a participant to get a better take on it.


I think thats true about alot of things


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## drippin' rock (Sep 25, 2015)

Ex preacher starts an atheist group and preaches atheism like a preacher. That type of delivery is gross. I wonder if he tries to get money out of his new flock?  I guarantee my shadow will never darken the doorway of one of these get togethers.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 25, 2015)

drippin' rock said:


> Ex preacher starts an atheist group and preaches atheism like a preacher. That type of delivery is gross. I wonder if he tries to get money out of his new flock?  I guarantee my shadow will never darken the doorway of one of these get togethers.



It's the Murikan way, maybe he's adopted the financially astute doctrine of; If you can't beat em join em.


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## 660griz (Sep 25, 2015)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> You have to view the movie as a spectator, not as a participant to get a better take on it.



I definitely feel he deserves your comment. My comment was based on numerous prior examples of atheism being labeled a 'religion'. 
In some definitions, it certainly can be. However, I think it is used by Christians as to their association with religion. 
In that respect, it is totally different. 

Definition of Religion:
(Christians) the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods. 

(That atheist guy)a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.

While one may be applied to all Christians, the other cannot be applied to all atheist.

Sorry if this is confusing. It made sense in my head.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 25, 2015)

660griz said:


> I definitely feel he deserves your comment. My comment was based on numerous prior examples of atheism being labeled a 'religion'.
> In some definitions, it certainly can be. However, I think it is used by Christians as to their association with religion.
> In that respect, it is totally different.
> 
> ...


I get what you're saying, thus I'll refrain from further hypberbole on the subject via delving into the implications by the use of the word 'supreme'.


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## ambush80 (Sep 25, 2015)

drippin' rock said:


> Ex preacher starts an atheist group and preaches atheism like a preacher. That type of delivery is gross. I wonder if he tries to get money out of his new flock?  I guarantee my shadow will never darken the doorway of one of these get togethers.



Yeah,  I hated his delivery.  All that yelling doesn't sound like rational discourse to me.

I thought he was a guest speaker at an atheist conference.  From other conferences of that kind that I've seen there isn't alot of that type of delivery.

Even in the coffee shop he should have been sitting down.  That's not how to have a discussion. Maybe he likes the pulpit for the same bad reasons as many preachers.


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## 660griz (Sep 25, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Yeah,  I hated his delivery.  All that yelling doesn't sound like rational discourse to me.
> 
> I thought he was a guest speaker at an atheist conference.  From other conferences of that kind that I've seen there isn't alot of that type of delivery.
> 
> Even in the coffee shop he should have been sitting down.  That's not how to have a discussion. Maybe he likes the pulpit for the same bad reasons as many preachers.



I would have walked out. Aint nobody got time for dat.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 25, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Yeah,  I hated his delivery.  All that yelling doesn't sound like rational discourse to me.
> 
> I thought he was a guest speaker at an atheist conference.  From other conferences of that kind that I've seen there isn't alot of that type of delivery.
> 
> Even in the coffee shop he should have been sitting down.  That's not how to have a discussion. Maybe he likes the pulpit for the same bad reasons as many preachers.




 It looks like to me if you all have the truth, you would all be of one mind and one accord instead of all the bickering amongst you...

 sorry, couldn't help myself seeing a new denomination come out in the non believers.


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## ambush80 (Sep 25, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> It looks like to me if you all have the truth, you would all be of one mind and one accord instead of all the bickering amongst you...
> 
> sorry, couldn't help myself seeing a new denomination come out in the non believers.



You want to see bickering? Go up a few floors and start a thread about "once save always saved"  or " free will vs. predestination" or "sprinkling vs. baptism" or "wine vs. grape juice" or "KJV vs something else".  

Watch how fast it gets locked down.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 25, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> You want to see bickering? Go up a few floors and start a thread about "once save always saved"  or " free will vs. predestination" or "sprinkling vs. baptism" or "wine vs. grape juice" or "KJV vs something else".
> 
> Watch how fast it gets locked down.



I know, it's mans nature. The very thing I just witnessed here.


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## ambush80 (Sep 25, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I know, it's mans nature. The very thing I just witnessed here.



Thank goodness there's a higher principle that we can all agree on.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 26, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> sorry, couldn't help myself seeing a new denomination come out in the non believers.



It isn't a new denomination, it is the rebirth of an old religion into a new one. The Lazarus effect. Neopaganism has come full circle.


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## ambush80 (Sep 26, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> It looks like to me if you all have the truth, you would all be of one mind and one accord instead of all the bickering amongst you...
> 
> sorry, couldn't help myself seeing a new denomination come out in the non believers.



There are some things that are still being worked on.  What needs to happen is for people to place a premium on reason and rationality.  If there are answers to tough questions, those are the best tools to answer them.  We're learning more about what it is to be human every day

"God said so" stops the conversation in the Iron Age.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 26, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> You want to see bickering? Go up a few floors and start a thread about "once save always saved"  or " free will vs. predestination" or "sprinkling vs. baptism" or "wine vs. grape juice" or "KJV vs something else".
> 
> Watch how fast it gets locked down.



In defense of "upstairs":

1)  I think most of the discussions (even on the more controversial topics) tend to be respectful.  Have their been some less than respectful conversations?  Absolutely.  Many people that caused problems, though, got banned and some subjects were labeled _verboten_.  Sad, but true.

2)  I am mystified by the belief that some have that Christianity is the one subject that people are not supposed to argue about.  "Those people in the spiritual forums just argue."  As opposed to the political forum?  As opposed to the sports forum?  As opposed to any forum on this board?  Please.  

There were disagreements in the Bible (Paul and Peter, Paul and Barnabas), and there have been disagreements throughout church history.  (The reason we have a different church on every corner today is because of a little disagreement called the Reformation.)  Disagreeing is part of being human.  Certainly, one does not have to be _disagreeable_, but still ...


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## ambush80 (Sep 26, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> In defense of "upstairs":
> 
> 1)  I think most of the discussions (even on the more controversial topics) tend to be respectful.  Have their been some less than respectful conversations?  Absolutely.  Many people that caused problems, though, got banned and some subjects were labeled _verboten_.  Sad, but true.
> 
> ...




Absolutely.  Why would anyone not want to fully understand why they believe certain things, especially things like religion that have such far reaching ramifications?  

Then there's:

_King James Bible
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness._

It doesn't seem to support the notion of thinking things through.  Perhaps you can explain to me how that verse isn't in support of anti-intellectualism.

I agree that people have given misplaced respect to ideas that should be harshly criticized.  It's been going on for too long.

Why should any subject be _verboten_.  Aren't we all adults here?


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## centerpin fan (Sep 26, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Then there's:
> 
> _King James Bible
> For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness._
> ...



I don't think it's saying we shouldn't think things through.  I know you don't believe in God (or you doubt), but wouldn't you agree that if God exists, his ways _would_ be beyond our grasp and our wisdom _would_ be utter foolishness to Him?  God gave us a mind, so one would think He intended for us to use it.   




ambush80 said:


> Why should any subject be _verboten_.  Aren't we all adults here?



You would think, but some people just can't play nice.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 26, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> In defense of "upstairs":
> 
> 1)  I think most of the discussions (even on the more controversial topics) tend to be respectful.  Have their been some less than respectful conversations?  Absolutely.  Many people that caused problems, though, got banned and some subjects were labeled _verboten_.  Sad, but true.
> 
> ...





> 2)  I am mystified by the belief that some have that Christianity is the one subject that people are not supposed to argue about.


Just my opinion here and maybe this really only applies to me but when we point out the disagreement what we are really thinking/saying is -
You (in general) got really big stones telling us where we are going and regergitate passages etc as proof and you dont even agree amongst yourselves what the heck all this stuff says or means.
Then to top of it off we invariably get "Yeah but we agree on the important stuff".
Well no, actually you dont.

However we are also aware you dont have much choice.
Religion, whichever one and whichever flavor of whichever one, are all rooted in "holier than thou".


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## ambush80 (Sep 26, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> I don't think it's saying we shouldn't think things through.  I know you don't believe in God (or you doubt), but wouldn't you agree that if God exists, his ways _would_ be beyond our grasp and our wisdom _would_ be utter foolishness to Him?  God gave us a mind, so one would think He intended for us to use it.
> 
> You would think, but some people just can't play nice.



Another believer might think differently.  So now you are left with trying to discuss things rationally, just like us.  

Trying to imagine what a God(s) think like is a fools errand.  It's an interesting hypothetical game but impossible to resolve.  That's why with much of the doctrine the conversation ends with "Leave it at the foot of the cross", which means to me "Stop trying to figure it out" and that's lame.

If He gave you a book and a mind but the two don't mesh then it seems to me like a set up. There's so many boiler plate excuses in the doctrine itself that offer circular arguments about how to interpret the doctrine. 

I googled "Bible verses that support thinking" and this is what I got:

_8 Bible Verses about Thinking

Proverbs 15:28

The heart of the righteous ponders how to answer, But the mouth of the wicked pours out evil things.

Mark 7:21-22

"For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness.

Proverbs 23:7

For as he thinks within himself, so he is. He says to you, "Eat and drink!" But his heart is not with you.

Romans 12:2

And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Philippians 4:8

Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.

Philippians 2:5

Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,

Proverbs 14:15

The naive believes everything, But the sensible man considers his steps.

Acts 18:28

for he powerfully refuted the Jews in public, demonstrating by the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.
_

Woefully minimal and ambiguous for such a large book.  Most of it reads to me like "believe FIRST and then it will make sense", but it still doesn't, in the strictest definition of "makes sense".   Would you agree that the emphasis of The Word is on faith and not reason?


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## centerpin fan (Sep 28, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Another believer might think differently.



As evidenced by many discussions "upstairs", there is seemingly no limit to what some believe or disbelieve.  However, Jesus said, "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." (Mt 10:16)

In addition, the entire book of Proverbs is a collection of wisdom.  Church history is filled with some _really_ smart people (Origen and Thomas Aquinas come to mind.)


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## centerpin fan (Sep 28, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Would you agree that the emphasis of The Word is on faith and not reason?



Without faith, it is impossible to please God.  Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

So, yes, God puts a premium on faith.  Our faith is not without reason, though.  Thomas said he would not believe unless "I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side".


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## Israel (Sep 28, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Yeah,  I hated his delivery.  All that yelling doesn't sound like rational discourse to me.
> 
> I thought he was a guest speaker at an atheist conference.  From other conferences of that kind that I've seen there isn't alot of that type of delivery.
> 
> Even in the coffee shop he should have been sitting down.  That's not how to have a discussion. Maybe he likes the pulpit for the same bad reasons as many preachers.



Though I don't know many, I have known some.
Pulpitophelia is treatable, but drastic.


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## Israel (Sep 28, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Another believer might think differently.  So now you are left with trying to discuss things rationally, just like us.
> 
> Trying to imagine what a God(s) think like is a fools errand.  It's an interesting hypothetical game but impossible to resolve.  That's why with much of the doctrine the conversation ends with "Leave it at the foot of the cross", which means to me "Stop trying to figure it out" and that's lame.
> 
> ...



 you must have read all the above in your posting?

You could have simply gone here:

Answer not a fool according to his folly, Lest thou be like to him — even thou.

Answer a fool according to his folly, Lest he be wise in his own eyes.

But for that, you'd have to think you're pretty smart.  At least smarter than the Spirit. 

You ain't.

See how much alike we are?


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2015)

Israel said:


> you must have read all the above in your posting?
> 
> You could have simply gone here:
> 
> ...




You believe in spirits........

Enough said.


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## Israel (Sep 28, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> You believe in spirits........
> 
> Enough said.


and you may discover them discernible.

see how alike we are?


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> As evidenced by many discussions "upstairs", there is seemingly no limit to what some believe or disbelieve.  However, Jesus said, "Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." (Mt 10:16)
> 
> In addition, the entire book of Proverbs is a collection of wisdom.  Church history is filled with some _really_ smart people (Origen and Thomas Aquinas come to mind.)




Are you as "wise as serpents"?  Is another Christian that disagrees with you not?

....and 8% of scientists in the National Academy of Science believe in God.  It's confounding.


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## Israel (Sep 28, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Watching people pray almost makes me cry.


Sometimes hearing them has the same effect on me.

I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

That part, right there, does a number on me.
See, we ain't that different.


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## ambush80 (Sep 28, 2015)

Israel said:


> Sometimes hearing them has the same effect on me.
> 
> I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
> 
> ...



No we aren't different. You have the capacity to reason as well as I do.  You just don't do it.


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## Israel (Sep 29, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> I was thinking the other day about how logically consistent someone like Gemcgrew's position is.
> 
> Step 1.  God is good and everything He does is good and Righteous.
> 
> ...



I suppose sleep envy is as good a place to start as any.



> It works. You just have to fall off the cliff into absurdity first.




Does it? Has it? (I would guess then you tried it?...and are not merely peering over the fence into what you believe you see through the neighbor's patio door)


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## 660griz (Sep 29, 2015)

Israel said:


> Does it? Has it? (I would guess then you tried it?...and are not merely peering over the fence into what you believe you see through the neighbor's patio door)



I have tried it. I shake my head woefully at those days.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 29, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Are you as "wise as serpents"?  Is another Christian that disagrees with you not?



As I noted above, even apostles disagree.


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## ambush80 (Sep 29, 2015)

Israel said:


> I suppose sleep envy is as good a place to start as any.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





660griz said:


> I have tried it. I shake my head woefully at those days.



Yeah I wasted lots of time, too.....

Can't even say that it was at least a good experience overall.

I should have listened  to the atheists sooner.


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## Israel (Sep 29, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> No we aren't different. You have the capacity to reason as well as I do.  You just don't do it.



Good one!

I saw a T-shirt the other day, a guy was wearing it down the hall of the hospital. It was almost verbatim of some dialogue I had written years ago.
It said this: 



                       I am just like you


                        just smarter and
                          better looking


I told him I felt just the same way.


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## Israel (Sep 29, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Yeah I wasted lots of time, too.....
> 
> Can't even say that it was at least a good experience overall.
> 
> I should have listened  to the atheists sooner.



I have to ask...wasted time...in what sense?


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## EverGreen1231 (Sep 29, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> There are some things that are still being worked on.  What needs to happen is for people to place a premium on reason and rationality.  If there are answers to tough questions, those are the best tools to answer them.  We're learning more about what it is to be human every day
> 
> "God said so" stops the conversation in the Iron Age.



If you want answers to questions, this is, in actuality, the last thing you want to happen. Trading "God said so" for "It don't make no sense" is not progression, even by your own 'logic'.


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## ambush80 (Sep 29, 2015)

Israel said:


> I have to ask...wasted time...in what sense?



Fear of He11. Fear of the Devil.  Fear of the Lord.  Believing that other people were going to He11.

What a waste of time....


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## ambush80 (Sep 29, 2015)

EverGreen1231 said:


> If you want answers to questions, this is, in actuality, the last thing you want to happen. Trading "God said so" for "It don't make no sense" is not progression, even by your own 'logic'.



How would you answer a question like:  "What is the Sun made of?"


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## EverGreen1231 (Sep 29, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> How would you answer a question like:  "What is the Sun made of?"



How would you, using only logic and reasoning?


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## ambush80 (Sep 29, 2015)

EverGreen1231 said:


> How would you, using only logic and reasoning?



I would conduct scientific experiments.


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## Israel (Sep 29, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> Fear of He11. Fear of the Devil.  Fear of the Lord.  Believing that other people were going to He11.
> 
> What a waste of time....




makes me wonder at your experience...and not denying it, and not saying I cannot in part relate.


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## ambush80 (Sep 29, 2015)

Israel said:


> makes me wonder at your experience...and not denying it, and not saying I cannot in part relate.




I loved the Lord. All I wanted to do was please Him

Can you relate to that?


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## EverGreen1231 (Sep 29, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> I would conduct scientific experiments.



That's not using logic or reasoning, that's using an empirical test to provided evidence. I would do the same thing accept I would conclude "and that's how God did it." The point is if you claim a mind that says "God did it and that's good enough for me" is any better than a mind that says "well, we'll know eventually so I'll just sit back and wait" you're being disingenuous, at best.


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## Israel (Sep 30, 2015)

ambush80 said:


> I loved the Lord. All I wanted to do was please Him
> 
> Can you relate to that?



Yes, I can.
And I can relate to the other as well...the fear of the devil, the fear of he11, and...unremitting frustrations. Though these become dimmer in my memory than once they were.
But, I cannot deny, the all too familiarity with fears or better FEAR, that seemed to eat me like a confection.
Yes, I can relate to that, too.
Then, something happened.


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## Israel (Oct 1, 2015)

EverGreen1231 said:


> That's not using logic or reasoning, that's using an empirical test to provided evidence. I would do the same thing accept I would conclude "and that's how God did it." The point is if you claim a mind that says "God did it and that's good enough for me" is any better than a mind that says "well, we'll know eventually so I'll just sit back and wait" you're being disingenuous, at best.



Yes. 
It could, as has been mentioned in older threads, become "It's turtles, all the way down".

It can just as easily be "it's arguments...all the way down".

I well understand here, on this forum, very little is granted by way of concession. Some may grant Jesus existed, but then got so superstitiously "elaborated" or exaggerated, either by extraneous additions or downright Machiavellian manipulations, whose diabolical depths could never be adequately excoriated...or discovered. 

Some it seems will not even concede to his being, that all is perhaps, to them, just a fabrication.

Some speak of absurdity...as though the believer is not himself very familiar...having faced within himself a very distinct battle in time of severest trial "what do I REALLY believe?" At those times...the disciple is well aware of clever arguments presented...of a seeming rational mind displaying plainly to him..."wait, this stuff is ALL crazy... 

Of course, in any battle, to be hit with friendly fire or enemy fire leaves one either just as dead...or just as wounded, it matters little whether the round was a 5.56 or a  7.62 after one is hit. And so the believer, often confused... is brought to  "wait...is that me saying this is crazy?" is it another spirit? What REALLY, is real? The believer that has been through this understands, when the mind is under assault, it's part of the fog of battle. All he knows is he wants to be where the battle has ceased.

I claim total inadequacy to explain to anyone else's satisfaction what I have experienced in the workings of God's spirit. I can relate it, but not explain it. I can only say...every battle has consequences.


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## 660griz (Oct 1, 2015)

Onward Christian soldier.


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## JimD (Oct 1, 2015)

Good post Israel, I agree. Makes me think of the quote "The obstacle IS the Path."


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## Israel (Oct 1, 2015)

JimD said:


> Good post Israel, I agree. Makes me think of the quote "The obstacle IS the Path."



Ha!...yep!

I once said that I usually get my theology from the Bible, TV and movies (half facetious).
I was watching this show a coupla weeks back, and the guy was explaining his coming to terms with certain things. He said to the other "I've learned that peace isn't the absence of conflict. Peace comes in accepting the conflict."
Made me take notice.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 1, 2015)

Israel said:


> I once said that I usually get my theology from the Bible, TV and movies (half facetious).



Another piece of the puzzle falls into place.


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## Israel (Oct 1, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> Another piece of the puzzle falls into place.



What puzzle would that be?


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