# Wierd Colored Lab Questions



## Big Jeep Wrangler

I dont want to start a war but would like some clarification on the situation. I keep seeing people that have these rare Silver Labs and Fox Red Labs. I know all the hoopla about the AKC only accepting Yellow, Black, and Chocolate/Brown. I have a few questions about these strange colored Labs. 

First is why are they so expensive? If a lab is bred to retrieve and has amazing bloodlines I can see paying 1000 bucks for a pup, but not just the fact that it is silver or red. 

Second is my pup is registered with AKC which means I can trace it back for years and years and see the exact colors that all of his ancestors are. Couldnt one of these silver labs be traced back to see when this silver gene color came along. 

Third is, I was referred to a website that was supposed to be a good source for Silver Labs and had some info on them. I went thru the website looking at their dogs and was amazed that these dogs they were claiming were labs didnt even look like labs. The heads and facial features were way off. When I asked for clarification on the breeds and there beginnings I was given the run around. And my questions were never directly answered.


Any help on this situation would be appreciated. like I said before I dont want this to get ugly, I just want the facts about them.


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## andrew_dial

the silver labs i have seen look just like any other lab except the eyes. the eyes look more like a chesapeake bay retriever. they are greenish in color. but like i said they look like a lab and are beautiful to me. but yes you are about to start a storm


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## hogdawg

Come on jessicay, this man needs some answers


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## DUD

hogdawg said:


> Come on jessicay, this man needs some answers


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## Big Jeep Wrangler

I am really serious I dont want to start a war, I would just like serious answers. Because all I ever get is the run-around.


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## 91xjgawes

no way around it.... 


they aint full blooded, someone can argue till their blue in the face... they aint suppose to be silver...


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## Big Jeep Wrangler

Look at this page. Scroll to the bottom of the page and look at these dogs they are claiming are labs. Aint no way these dogs are labs. Look at the head and eyes.  That one dog has a mane like a lion. http://www.stillwaterlabradorretrievers.com/


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## brantley3312

i dont remember the link to it but somewhere on the akc website they had a article about it and said that there was no proof of the silver labs being from incest or cross breeding and that the silver labs are registered as a choclate lab... that just what i read a while back when i was lookin at buyin a new pup but here is what i found on one website....   http://www.silverlabs.com/controversy.htm


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## thomas gose

Big Jeep Wrangler said:


> Look at this page. Scroll to the bottom of the page and look at these dogs they are claiming are labs. Aint no way these dogs are labs. Look at the head and eyes.  That one dog has a mane like a lion. http://www.stillwaterlabradorretrievers.com/



they look like labs to me.


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## Big Jeep Wrangler

thomas gose said:


> they look like labs to me.



Are we looking at the same dogs on there? You are looking at the ones on the bottom of the page right? The adult dogs.


Brantley I read the website that you posted and still didnt come to a conclusion on anything except I could have wrote all that but it doesnt make it true. I could also claim that the University of Harvard conducted a study showing that silver is not a gene or trait that should ever be present in Labs but that doesnt make it true either.

That page would be alot more believable if it wouldnt have been written by a person that wants you to buy one of the dogs from him. 

If silver is to be recognized why cant I take my dog and breed him and get a silver? Or my parents Choc for that matter. Why does he keep producing Choc and Yellows?


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## JBuck

It has always been my understanding that the "silver" labs are from a mutation in the chocolate gene and not from inbreeding or cross breeding.


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## DOXIELADY

kind of like my isabella dachshunds  they are silver but  ,came about when someone down the line bred a blue and a chocolate so its a type a chocolate dilute ,I guess someone bred a chocolate lab to maybe a lighter black colored lab  and got that color ,dont know


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## browning84

DOXIELADY said:


> kind of like my isabella dachshunds  they are silver but  ,came about when someone down the line bred a blue and a chocolate so its a type a chocolate dilute ,I guess someone bred a chocolate lab to maybe a lighter black colored lab  and got that color ,dont know



no more like someone bred them to a weimaraner


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## BOB_HARWELL

Weimariner (sp) - silver
 Visela (sp) - Fox Red

           BOB


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## Jeff Phillips

Silver LAB, Red LAB, Chocolate LAB, Black LAB, Yellow LAB...

All are labs with a genetic variance. I have seen 2 yellow labs breed and have black, yellow, and chocolate pups. Silver and red are from a resurfacing gene. It's not like the dogs have spots or anything, why the controversy


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## CedarSwampRetrievers

It wouldn't have been hard to cross the weim in a couple of years ago before dna was common place. Wouldn't be terribly hard now. Use a weim female(s), use papers of a lab(s) that doesn't have dna done on sire, etc , by the time it comes up, female(s) is long dead, everything else the offspring bred to full lab, tracing papers back, you would dead end and unfortunately have to assume "pure" lab as AKC did. As long as people are gullible enough to pay the crazy prices, they will be produced, just like the labradoodle, goldendoodle, and every other mutt "hybrid" you can name. "Hybrids" are no healthier than a purebred dog. ALL breeds have hip dysplasia. It's not as noticable in small breeds due to their light weight. I know of a vet that just operated on a "snoodle" for luxating patellas. With the doodles, you have added A bleeding disorder in the mix of the lab, etc problems. 

Yes yellows can be fox red. Rare? Not really. I know of one that was in Purina ads 10 years afo that was a MH. 

I had a pup in my last litter that was solid white at 8 weeks old. By a year old, while still very light, has some shading around the ears. Yellows tend to darken with age.

People that care about the breed as a whole don't breed just for color.

If you are looking for a puppy, visit AKC, get the breed club website and learn the problems to look for. www.offa.org is a good place to find out about the genetic problems as well as the skeletal problems. 

Alison


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## tuffdawg

BOB_HARWELL said:


> Weimariner (sp) - silver
> Visela (sp) - Fox Red
> 
> BOB



Bob you have always had a way with words.


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## onemilmhz

I'm by no means an expert or even a hobbyist.  I am only on my second lab.  That being said, I only have one question for those who would try to convince me that they (off colors) are "normal".  Why has it taken hundreds of years for them to just start showing up???


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## Jeff Phillips

onemilmhz said:


> I'm by no means an expert or even a hobbyist.  I am only on my second lab.  That being said, I only have one question for those who would try to convince me that they (off colors) are "normal".  Why has it taken hundreds of years for them to just start showing up???



If a reddish chocolate was bred to a yellow, the trait would be suppressed. If a breeder starts to selectively breed for a specific color it changes the picture.

Look back in the 40's and 50's to check on the frequency of chocolates.


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## hogdawg

I think we need a refresher course... 

http://trinitylabstexas.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/are-all-colors-created-equally.pdf


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## Ed in North Ga.

Ive got a Weimernainer not 2 feet away from my face right now, and that silver lab looks an awful lot lot a laberiner....its so close its spooky...dumbo here agrees. He aint that smart, but he knows weims.


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## onemilmhz

> http://www.stillwaterlabradorretrievers.com/


I'm not sure I would take anything on this site too seriously.  Their main page art is Winnie the Pooh. 




> http://www.silverlabs.com/controversy.htm


How can this kennel make the claim that they are breeding/selling AKC registered "Silver" labs when the AKC only registers Black, Yellow and Chocolate? They have to be one of the three to be "registered" right???  




> http://trinitylabstexas.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/are-all-colors-created-equally.pdf


This site seems to have the most concise and informative data but can we be sure that they don't also have an agenda?


Pardon the horrible pun but, I don't have a dog in this fight.  My lab isn't even registered although I know for a fact he is purebred.  I think having "papers" on a dog is fine if you have intentions of breeding and selling but what else is it good for?


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## CedarSwampRetrievers

The one with pooh on it claims that their stud has ofa on their hips, but I didn't find it on a search, tried a couple of different ways...
www.offa.com
I can find all of mine, and lots more. Not the first site I've seen claiming OFA's that haven't really been done.


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## Big Jeep Wrangler

My lab has OFA Certs on his hips. And he is 11 months.







See anybody can make crap up.


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## bassfishga

The "silver Labs" look like someone bred them to a Weimaraner. Maybe someone's Female Lab breed with a Male Weimaraner and they sent in the paper from 2 Labs and registered the litter. 
I think the best thing you as a consumer can do is to not buy a Silver or Red if you don't approve of the color. To encourage other to just buy the strait 3 (Black, Yellow, Chocolate). 
I don't know if the red will die out as fast. I have seen a light Yellow Lab and and Black Lab Litter throw a Red. Those sivers just look like Weimaraner/Lab mixes to me. I have had  Weimaraner and his face and eyes looked just like some of those "Silver Labs".


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## mustlovelabs

Fox red was the original yellow. The AKC recognizes three colors. Black, Yellow and Chocolate. There is such a wide range in yellows. Fox red is not rare it's just that when the lighter yellow is more popular breeders tend to breed more closely to the light yellow than the darker. Fox red is no where near rare just can be hard to find at times. Plus a lot of people don't know what fox red is because it has been bred out so much. 

Here is something for you to look at. This is a professional show breeder. http://www.coppertonelabs.com/

Which also breeds silvers.
http://silvertonelabs.com/index.html


And I have seen where Coppertone and Silvertones have mixed both of there lines together. Right now that have a chocolate that is silver factored that is a show champion....

Some people believe in it and some do not. It's your own choice. But keep in mind that your own AKC Black, Yellow, or Chocolate could carry the silver gene or some of the ancestors could.


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## dbwilkey

just get a GSP


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## DukTruk

Genetically the Silvers are Yellow.  There are only 3 colors when they are tested genetically.  Yellow, Chocolate, and Black.

The silvers are a genetic anomole.  No matter what the color, when a breeder breeds based color alone, it almost never winds up good.


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## JDAWG

same as pink nosed labs....still registered with akc just not listed as a dud color.  go www.working-retriever.com may help a little.

I thought they were all black    J/K


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## JoshM

Same situation with the APBT. All the years my family raised gamebred bulldogs and then people coming out of the woodworks selling these big blue mutts and putting them off as gamebred bulldogs for 2x-4x the price without proving anything...

I remember when it wasn't okay to have fluke colors on the yard, they were culled off or fixed and adopted out as family pets but NEVER bred into the yard for color.


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## Twenty five ought six

We've had this debate in Weimraners for years.  Our version of the "silver" lab is the "blue" Weimeraner.  There are breeders who breed for the "blue" and will hype it as some "special" dog that demands a premium price.  "Blue" weims are non-standard.

For the last thirty years or so, we've had a debate about where the "blue" came from.  Outbreeding?  Recessive gene?  Genetic mutation?  Recent research has proven that it "blue" is a recessive trait that can be bred for if one is so inclined.  I suspect that the same is true for "silver" labs.

As for AKC, although "blues" are non-standard, AKC will register them as fast as you can send them the registration fees.  The only thing that AKC registration says about a dog is that its momma and its daddy were AKC registered.  What "non-standard" means in a practical sense is that the dog cannot compete in any AKC events that depend on confirmation, although it can compete in field events, and obedience.

It is the market place that drives the demand for these non-standard dogs and ignorant or unscrupulous breeders convincing new owners that there is something "special" about their dogs.

Here is a picture of a couple of "blue" weims (black actually) that are rescue dogs, as we do not support the breeding of non-standard dogs.


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## browning84

This is my opinion. 

Dogs were built for speed not for show, well at least the sporting breeds were. Sporting dogs were designed for practicality. But just like when a guy dates a girl or visa versa he/she usually is first attracted to the person as is the same with dogs, we want them to look good also. Some may think that these “Silver Labs” are good looking dogs, I personally do not, they basically look like a shorter stockier version of a weimaraner, but usually a little darker then one and with longer hair. I saw two “Silver Labs” at the 2008 Fall Hunt Test that was held as the inaugural test for North GA HRC, aside from the Chinese Crested Dog they were by far the ugliest dog I have ever seen. I saw one run a started test, as a large majority of these dog that are with pros have been properly introduced to all things gun dog related and they also have a ton or drive usually, this “Silver Lab” was with a pro at this test. If I had to rate a dog from 0-10 with 0 being no drive and 10 being high drive I would give this dog a 1. He loped out there and loped back. I was shocked to even see it at the test. Anyway as I get off the story and back to the point. Sure I guess you could take a lab and breed it with a weimaraner and get “Silver Labs” and from that point only breed the “Silver” to an actual Pure Blooded Lab and start getting the Lab characteristics back and then selectively breed everything back into them and just keeping the color and you might win a few shows but you will never see one at Westminster and you can quote me on that, and for that matter you rarely see a bench breed lab in field competitions for the sole reason of people/breeders selectively breeding for speed and not show when it comes to the field. If any of you saw the Westminster dog show yesterday you know that the lab that was there would just not cut it in field comps. So in actuality there are really 2 distinctive lines that people look for and those are Field and Show, and there are variations of both in between. But the point I am trying to make is you not going to see a “Silver lab” make it big in the ring and you most likely will not see one make it to the Grand and or the Nationals.  You might see one make it through a SHR, HR, maybe even and HRCH but I seriously seriously doubt it, and maybe if all the stars align and the moon is right a FC or AFC but I also seriously doubt it. So if you are breeding for the silver then get a weimaraner if you just want a lab that will show or hunt then get one of the 3 already accepted colors or Black, Chocolate, or Yellow by the AKC or UKC. But if you just have to have a “Silver Lab” then have one and fight for you NEW registrations as a Weimarador or Labramaraner but don’t ruin the lines that we already have and are trying to improve.


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## jessicay

hogdawg said:


> Come on jessicay, this man needs some answers




Sorry to disappoint you all I have not been on here in a while!!

Man I guess I have to get on here everyday to get into a good debate


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## Big Jeep Wrangler

jessicay said:


> Sorry to disappoint you all I have not been on here in a while!!
> 
> Man I guess I have to get on here everyday to get into a good debate



Do you care to shine some light on the situation?


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## jessicay

Big Jeep Wrangler said:


> Do you care to shine some light on the situation?




HMMM, I see no point in this. You have your mind made up. I will say that alot of people on here do not have the silver facts right. But that is not for me to judge anyone. Nor should you judge me. 

I will say this yes there are alot of bad silver breeders out there. But I can find worst AKC standard color breeders out there. All, I have to do is go over to see what is for sale in woody's.

I will give you a GOOD link to read, I could only hope to be half the breeder that she is some day.

http://www.redrockranch.net/thesilvertruth1.htm

HAPPY READING BOYS!!!


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## jessicay

I forgot to put this site also...

http://healthgene.com/canine/breeds.asp?breedid=35

http://healthgene.com/canine/colortest.asp?breedid=35

www.silvermountainlabradors.com, this guy has already put a title on his dog and he explains the gene's so I do not have to type it all out.


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## 91xjgawes

jessicay said:


> I forgot to put this site also...
> 
> http://healthgene.com/canine/breeds.asp?breedid=35
> 
> http://healthgene.com/canine/colortest.asp?breedid=35
> 
> www.silvermountainlabradors.com, this guy has already put a title on his dog and he explains the gene's so I do not have to type it all out.



regardless of colors, why do you and others sale a "silver" so called lab for 1,000 dollars, and the other puppies in the same litter that came out a different color for 250-500? with the same parents the silver puppy cant have a better pedigree...and who in the world is dumb enough to buy that "silver" puppy knowing this?


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## JuliaH

dbwilkey said:


> just get a GSP


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## browning84

jessicay said:


> I forgot to put this site also...
> 
> http://healthgene.com/canine/breeds.asp?breedid=35
> 
> http://healthgene.com/canine/colortest.asp?breedid=35
> 
> www.silvermountainlabradors.com, this guy has already put a title on his dog and he explains the gene's so I do not have to type it all out.



I looked at you websites you posted as having “good” information. Well I looked at the Genotypes for a dilute brown which is what is considered as a “Silver Lab” in this list of genotypes it give the coat color which is the main color, the nose color, and the hidden color which is only important when breeding. The part I find interesting is you can have these dilute colors but when you look at the nose color there is no dilute you have the option of brown or black for all genotypes. My question is if these “Silver Labs” are actually labs then shouldn’t they be silver in coat and the nose brown??? I have yet to see a picture of one of these labs with a silver coat and a brown nose. This tells me there might be a little wiermaraner blood flowing through the veins of these dogs.


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## jessicay

91xjgawes said:


> regardless of colors, why do you and others sale a "silver" so called lab for 1,000 dollars, and the other puppies in the same litter that came out a different color for 250-500? with the same parents the silver puppy cant have a better pedigree...and who in the world is dumb enough to buy that "silver" puppy knowing this?



You see this goes back to were I said you should not judge me. You have never spoke with me so you do not know what we are doing here. I can not speak for other silver breeders but I will speak for my self and say that if my dogs cost that much it is because of improvement breeding's. 

I do not know what you are talking about when you say that my puppies sale for 250-500 out of the same litter. I had a chocolate litter a few months ago that was S/F but the mother had CH on her side and they all sold for 800. The only litter that I have sold that cheap was my charcoal litter and I sold them for 200 with out papers. And both parents had their hips done in that litter. So I feel that was a good deal for those puppies!!


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## jessicay

browning84 said:


> I looked at you websites you posted as having “good” information. Well I looked at the Genotypes for a dilute brown which is what is considered as a “Silver Lab” in this list of genotypes it give the coat color which is the main color, the nose color, and the hidden color which is only important when breeding. The part I find interesting is you can have these dilute colors but when you look at the nose color there is no dilute you have the option of brown or black for all genotypes. My question is if these “Silver Labs” are actually labs then shouldn’t they be silver in coat and the nose brown??? I have yet to see a picture of one of these labs with a silver coat and a brown nose. This tells me there might be a little wiermaraner blood flowing through the veins of these dogs.




You have not seem many silver labs than!!!

I only have one thing to say to you, my avatar is a little girl. She is only about 9 weeks old, and I kept her back just for you/people like you. Because I am going to trained her up and get her titled and when I walk off that field with that silver girl and shake your hand. That will be worth all of your smack that I put up with.


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## browning84

jessicay said:


> You have not seem many silver labs than!!!
> 
> I only have one thing to say to you, my avatar is a little girl. She is only about 9 weeks old, and I kept her back just for you/people like you. Because I am going to trained her up and get her titled and when I walk off that field with that silver girl and shake your hand. That will be worth all of your smack that I put up with.



I will be there to watch. I would be elated to see someone proof these dogs got it. And what arena do you plan to compete???


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## hogdawg

jessicay said:


> The only litter that I have sold that cheap was my charcoal litter and I sold them for 200 with out papers.



why?


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## tuffdawg

Ok for all of you jessicay bashers. How many of you REALLY know the true genealogy of dogs in general? Do you all REALLY know where the foundation for your specific breed originated? Do you REALLY get a kick out of bashing people because they just happen to have something that YOU don't REALLY like!?

Ya know...... this argument is no different than the GSP folks that SWEAR those pink noses come from English Pointers...... 

Its no different than the fact that a Vizla and a weim are closer than you think. 

How do people end up with these tiny toy breeds? The spend years and years selective breeding in order to obtain what they want. Doesn't mean they throw some other breed in there to get a smaller size. 

Color genetics are no different. If you know what your doing.... and you do your research.... you can get a pure bred dog in a color that isn't necessarily what your use to seeing. 

You would think if you don't like a breed, you would just stay away from it and not bother whom ever specializes in it. Of course there are always those that have nothing better to do than to continuously like to shove what THEY think is right, down someone else s throat. 

I know a previous poster asked who could be so dumb as to pay this kind of money for these kinds of dogs...... Well...... this all falls back to a ford and chevy debate. 

And the color of a dog has NOTHING to do with performance. A lot more of a dogs ability to hunt and work leans a lot more towards the proper training of that dog more so than genetics. You can take a dog with a high drive, and ruin that dog to where its no good for anything other than a garbage disposal. 

You can take a dog with a mediocre drive and find what makes that dog tick, and excel with it. I have seen dogs full of drive that didnt know what to do with a bird because they were never trained, or improperly trained. I have seen dogs that the people literally gave away as a pup because they claimed it was garbage...... And that dog ended up being one of the best hunting dogs of their lives because they TRAINED the dog. 

The color of its coat makes no difference.


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## hogdawg

you honestly think silver breeders are trying to better the breed?  no, there breeding for color which equals $$$$, and that just aint right.


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## jessicay

hogdawg said:


> why?



Come on Hogdawg, do you need to know ALL of my business.

I have the papers NOW so I am contacting the people who bought from me. Letting them get the papers. But I do not think that is none of your business.


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## JuliaH

> Ok for all of you jessicay bashers. How many of you REALLY know the true genealogy of dogs in general? Do you all REALLY know where the foundation for your specific breed originated?


 
Interesting thought! Most breeds come from a mix of several way back yonder, but they developed traits and bred till they got it right... but do you know the foundation of your breed?  I have studied my GSP enough to know that the white factor dogs are not a mix at all, according to GSPCA, and that they originally came from a mixture of the  Spanish Pointer, Viszla, Weimeraner and a couple others, and that the first stud book was done in the late 1800's. 

How about Brittany Spaniels?

How are the Viszla and Weim related? Which came first?

As to who thinks what is right... my background says stay within the standard and breed for traits you like and you will have no problem. I know a lady who breeds labs, sells her pups for no less than $1000 each with a spay/neuter contract and limited registration, and she is comfortably within the prescribed colors from AKC.

The color of the coat is not as important as the animal, but the difference in coat color, when it is enough to wonder what else is in there, is important.

Julia


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## JuliaH

Are you selling from an empty wagon?  In other words selling registered dogs, from any registry, without having the papers available to the buyers when they purchase??  I know lots of people do it, but I have bought 2 that way and both times it was a headache getting papers... won't ever do that again... 

In my opinion, if we breeders are selling registered pups, papers outta go out with the dog if it is paid in full, at time of purchase. 

Just mentioned to be helpful...

Julia



jessicay said:


> Come on Hogdawg, do you need to know ALL of my business.
> 
> I have the papers NOW so I am contacting the people who bought from me. Letting them get the papers. But I do not think that is none of your business.


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## JuliaH

Ummm...longer than you have had Brittanys. Pull in the fangs and just answer my questions. You came across as the expert... help us to understand the reasoning. I am interested.




tuffdawg said:


> ANd how long have you been into GSP's? What, three whole entire years? Might be something to think about.


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## tuffdawg

JuliaH said:


> Ummm...longer than you have had Brittanys. Pull in the fangs and just answer my questions. You came across as the expert... help us to understand the reasoning. I am interested.



My advice in this forum is given for all dog breeds. Not just brittanys. I dont try and claim to come across as an expert here on brittanys. I dont act or claim to be something I am not. I have been involved with dogs all my life, and I currently have professional training. I would say I am more qualified than most.


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## hogdawg

jessicay said:


> Come on Hogdawg, do you need to know ALL of my business.
> 
> I have the papers NOW so I am contacting the people who bought from me. Letting them get the papers. But I do not think that is none of your business.



I was just curious about the huge price difference in some of your litters.


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## JuliaH

Ok, that sounds better... and I know you have had dogs for a long time... thats why I asked the questions... You made some strong statements and I am in a process of learning (we should never stop learning) so am curious as to your reasoning 

Julia



tuffdawg said:


> My advice in this forum is given for all dog breeds. Not just brittanys. I dont try and claim to come across as an expert here on brittanys. I dont act or claim to be something I am not. I have been involved with dogs all my life, and I currently have professional training. I would say I am more qualified than most.


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## tuffdawg

JuliaH said:


> Ok, that sounds better... and I know you have had dogs for a long time... thats why I asked the questions... You made some strong statements and I am in a process of learning (we should never stop learning) so am curious as to your reasoning
> 
> Julia



 Glad that we got that cleared up.


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## JuliaH

Me too, now please let me know why you made such a strong post defending Jessicay. Color breeding can make a difference... Having dogs for a long time is not a qualifier for wanting to be an expert. I have had dogs all my life too   I would not be asking these questions if you had not posted so strongly as in post #44.

You made a lot of strong statements. I am just looking for some backing for them 

Julia




tuffdawg said:


> Glad that we got that cleared up.


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## cherokeepride741

*Where is the love???*

I think Julia and Tuff Dawg must have some bad blood.  I think people on here live for wars like this


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## zzweims

tuffdawg said:


> And the color of a dog has NOTHING to do with performance.



Tuffdawg--

I agree with you completely!!  And there is nothing wrong with asking $1000 or more for a pup from proven parents.  But unless the parents have proven themselves in the field by earning advanced titles, that purchase price is a bit steep.  Afterall, labs are a dime a dozen.  If I just wanted a pet, I'd get one from the pound.  If, however, I wanted a hunting companion, I'd insist that the dam and sire had at least the SH title, and preferably FC, AFC, NFC, NAFC etc.

I don't care what color these puppies are, but if they are being advertised as 'field quaility,' there had better be some evidence.


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## JuliaH

I am not at war with Tuff... got more to do than that...lol... but I get curious when folks post such strong statements and don't back them up.

And just to come in to defend a friend is not a good enough reason for post #44, imho 




cherokeepride741 said:


> I think Julia and Tuff Dawg must have some bad blood. I think people on here live for wars like this


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## tuffdawg

I dont have to have an explanation behind any post that I make. I have a right to an opinion just like anyone else on here. Just like I have the right to defend myself when someone attacks.


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## zzweims

Jessicay:

I love your avatar.  That puppy is adorable!  Here's a picture of some of mine at about the same age.







btw, I asked the same price.  But I paid all registration and futurity fees, plus membership in the parent club, and lifetime moneyback health gaurentees.  And they do come from proven lines.  EVERY dog in the 4 gen pedigree has field titles.  Sire and dam are 2xNAFC FC AFC Aztec's American Pie, JH, SDX and Amor's Amsel zum Ziel, SH, SDX, NRD

What's the pedigree on your pup?


----------



## JR

zzweims said:


> EVERY dog in the 4 gen pedigree has field titles.  Sire and dam are 2xNAFC FC AFC Aztec's American Pie, JH, SDX and Amor's Amsel zum Ziel, SH, SDX, NRD



Yowza!!!  Beautiful pups, and with that lineage and field proven-ness, that's the type of blood lines you want in hunting dogs!!!  

Very impressive, and seemingly worth EVERY dime (if not more)!!!


----------



## onemilmhz

Through all the banter (and my own reading) I've gathered this much- AKC recognizes Yellow, Black and Chocolate.  Therefore, there is no such thing as a Silver, Red Fox, Charcoal, Pink Panther or Purple People Eater lab.  Call it whatever you want, your "Silver" lab is a Chocolate.

Having said that, are we really sitting here arguing about what someone calls their Yellow, Black or Chocolate lab?  I don't think so.  I believe the question at hand is whether or not breeders breeding for color alone have any interest in improving the breed, correct?  Jessicay (and others), are you trying to tell us that you are improving the breed by trying to get certain colors?  If so, do you have facts to back up those claims?  Not some website, or breeders opinion, but facts backed by research of a scientific nature.  If so, I would love to see it.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

onemilmhz said:


> Through all the banter (and my own reading) I've gathered this much- AKC recognizes Yellow, Black and Chocolate. Therefore, there is no such thing as a Silver, Red Fox, Charcoal, Pink Panther or Purple People Eater lab. Call it whatever you want, your "Silver" lab is a Chocolate.
> 
> Having said that, are we really sitting here arguing about what someone calls their Yellow, Black or Chocolate lab? I don't think so. I believe the question at hand is whether or not breeders breeding for color alone have any interest in improving the breed, correct? Jessicay (and others), are you trying to tell us that you are improving the breed by trying to get certain colors? If so, do you have facts to back up those claims? Not some website, or breeders opinion, but facts backed by research of a scientific nature. If so, I would love to see it.


 

AKC Standards are there for a reason. These are clearly Weimaraner mix breeds and will not be accepted as a pure AKC breed.

That being said, they should make excellent dogs to train, carrying the best traits of both breeds if used for hunting purposes. However this shouldn't in anyway obfuscate the buyer looking for a "pure bred" Lab with a documented lineage. There will be none for this Labmaraner mix. And be clear on one thing, this is a mix, not a breed.


----------



## jessicay

scooter1 said:


> AKC Standards are there for a reason. These are clearly Weimaraner mix breeds and will not be accepted as a pure AKC breed.
> 
> That being said, they should make excellent dogs to train, carrying the best traits of both breeds if used for hunting purposes. However this shouldn't in anyway obfuscate the buyer looking for a "pure bred" Lab with a documented lineage. There will be none for this Labmaraner mix. And be clear on one thing, this is a mix, not a breed.



As I read everyone's post I keep thinking about the breeders who first started breeding chocolates and if the internet had been around than I bet the same bashing would have went on. But years later they became AKC standard. So it is only a matter of time, don't you think!!


----------



## onemilmhz

jessicay said:


> As I read everyone's post I keep thinking about the breeders who first started breeding chocolates and if the internet had been around than I bet the same bashing would have went on. But years later they became AKC standard. So it is only a matter of time, don't you think!!



I hear/read this argument from "silver" breeders all the time.  The difference is a chocolate will happen on its own no matter the color of the parents because its based on their genealogy. Whereas, producing a dog with a "silver" coat takes specific breeding methods.  If it didn't, why would it supposedly be worth more than any other lab pup?  How can you argue this fact?


----------



## tuffdawg

onemilmhz said:


> I hear/read this argument from "silver" breeders all the time.  The difference is a chocolate will happen on its own no matter who the parents were because its based on their genealogy. Whereas, producing a dog with a "silver" coat takes specific breeding methods.  If it didn't, why would it be worth more than any other lab pup?  How can you argue this fact?



With the genetics aside........ And covering the "price" issue. What makes the difference between a $200 dog and a $1,000 dog?


----------



## onemilmhz

tuffdawg said:


> What makes the difference between a $200 dog and a $1,000 dog?


In _MY_ opinion, buyer stupidity.  My free, unregistered chocolate shows more drive and hunting ambition than either of my buddies' $500 AKC blacks.  He also rules the yard when they're together despite still being a pup.  It's been my experience that "silver" pups fetch a premium simply because of their color, hence, the explosion in (unscrupulous) breeders efforts to produce them.  The desire to have them AKC recognized, and lying about the fact that they are not, is nothing more than a sales tactic. Again, in _MY_ opinion.


----------



## tuffdawg

onemilmhz said:


> In *MY* opinion, buyer stupidity.  My free, unregistered chocolate shows more drive and hunting ambition than either of my buddies $500 AKC blacks.  He also rules the yard when they're together despite still being a pup.



And I have heard cases like yours time and time again. The point that I am trying to make is......... You can shop for a puppy of a specific breed. Lets say you find two litters, each of which have excellent hunting backgrounds, and exceptional pedigree's as well. However, One litter is $300 the other litter is $600. What justifies the price difference?


----------



## jessicay

onemilmhz said:


> I hear/read this argument from "silver" breeders all the time.  The difference is a chocolate will happen on its own no matter the color of the parents because its based on their genealogy. Whereas, producing a dog with a "silver" coat takes specific breeding methods.  If it didn't, why would it supposedly be worth more than any other lab pup?  How can you argue this fact?



 Your plain chocolates sell for more than a black. Hmm think about it.


----------



## jessicay

onemilmhz said:


> In _MY_ opinion, buyer stupidity.  My free, unregistered chocolate shows more drive and hunting ambition than either of my buddies' $500 AKC blacks.  He also rules the yard when they're together despite still being a pup.  It's been my experience that "silver" pups fetch a premium simply because of their color, hence, the explosion in (unscrupulous) breeders efforts to produce them.  The desire to have them AKC recognized, and lying about the fact that they are not, is nothing more than a sales tactic. Again, in _MY_ opinion.




yep, your right and opinions are like what???


----------



## jessicay

zzweims,

I have not been on today cause my DSL cable broke. So I am at my a friends house. So I do not have her pedigree right in front of me. But I already said that I was doing improvement breeding. So yes she does have CH's and titled dogs in her pedigree. She actually has some of the best silver pedigree's you can get your hands on.


----------



## jessicay

hogdawg said:


> I was just curious about the huge price difference in some of your litters.



well, i sure do hope that I answered your questions.

I already have browning84 down for one of my titled pups you want me to put you down for one also. After she gets her titles!!


----------



## GA Christy

Man aren't we confident!!!


----------



## jessicay

GA Christy said:


> Man aren't we confident!!!



Oh, get off here!!


----------



## onemilmhz

jessicay said:


> yep, your right and opinions are like what???


Now there's the educated response I was looking for.  Your refusal to answer simple questions only confirms others suspicions.



jessicay said:


> Your plain chocolates sell for more than a black. Hmm think about it.


You have obviously missed the point.  Dogs for sale are like anything else, price is driven by demand.  And, as with anything else, demand is often driven by ignorance.  And again, as with anything else, you have shady people trying to make a buck off that ignorant demand.  I'm simply seeking factual basis for the practice of selective breeding, in this case for "silver" haired chocolate labs, improving the breed.  Nothing more.


----------



## GA Christy

JessicaY are you going to accept his response?


----------



## cherokeepride741

*?silver labs?*

Hey jessicay i have a three legged coon dog and two old riding lawn mowers i will trade you for one of them purdy silvers?......


----------



## zzweims

jessicay said:


> zzweims,
> 
> I have not been on today cause my DSL cable broke. So I am at my a friends house. So I do not have her pedigree right in front of me. But I already said that I was doing improvement breeding. So yes she does have CH's and titled dogs in her pedigree. She actually has some of the best silver pedigree's you can get your hands on.



Jessicay--

I don't have my dogs pedigrees in front of me either, but I remember their titles because _I put them on them_.  It was a lot of hard work, and thousands of dollars.  What titles have you put on your dogs?  Heck, just tell us their names and we can look it up ourselves.


----------



## tuffdawg

Lawd have mercy what have you folks done gone and started while I was gone. 

Ok....... let me catch up first...................


----------



## tuffdawg

cherokeepride741 said:


> Hey jessicay i have a three legged coon dog and two old riding lawn mowers i will trade you for one of them purdy silvers?......



 How does that coon dog hunt?


----------



## tuffdawg

GA Christy said:


> Man aren't we confident!!!


----------



## JR

onemilmhz said:


> Now there's the educated response I was looking for.  Your refusal to answer simple questions only confirms others suspicions.
> 
> You have obviously missed the point.  Dogs for sale are like anything else, price is driven by demand.  And, as with anything else, demand is often driven by ignorance.  And again, as with anything else, you have shady people trying to make a buck off that ignorant demand.  I'm simply seeking factual basis for the practice of selective breeding, in this case for "silver" haired chocolate labs, improving the breed.  Nothing more.





zzweims said:


> Jessicay--
> 
> I don't have my dogs pedigrees in front of me either, but I remember their titles because _I put them on them_.  It was a lot of hard work, and thousands of dollars.  What titles have you put on your dogs?  Heck, just tell us their names and we can look it up ourselves.


----------



## tuffdawg

Price is not driven by demand. This is the basis of all of my previous   trivial questions about prices.  Prices are determined by the breeders comprehension of the dogs self worth. So basically, the difference between the worth of a $200 dog with the same pedigree and qualifications of a $1000 dog is a basis of the breeders discretion. It is up to the breeder to determine what class of buyers they intend on attracting. Any run of the mill low income family can afford a $200 dog. However, only people with the money to back the dogs training, and only the people that can truly afford the proper care of a dog, can afford a $1000 dog. And if you think I am being prejudice here, let me rephrase this to the fact of , onlyh a person SERIOUS about training a dog of purchase, can and will make a point to do what is in their powers to ensure the purchased dog reaches full potential. 

 The price of a dog is not a tell tale sign of what the dog is, but what the breeder has envisioned for that litter. The price of a pup.......... isn't necessarily what it is *worth* but what the breeder intends on it achieving.


----------



## JR

tuffdawg said:


> Price is not driven by demand. This is the basis of all of my previous   trivial questions about prices.  Prices are determined by the breeders comprehension of the dogs self worth. So basically, the difference between the worth of a $200 dog with the same pedigree and qualifications of a $1000 dog is a basis of the breeders discretion. It is up to the breeder to determine what class of buyers they intend on attracting. Any run of the mill low income family can afford a $200 dog. However, only people with the money to back the dogs training, and only the people that can truly afford the proper care of a dog, can afford a $1000 dog. And if you think I am being prejudice here, let me rephrase this to the fact of , onlyh a person SERIOUS about training a dog of purchase, can and will make a point to do what is in their powers to ensure the purchased dog reaches full potential.
> 
> The price of a dog is not a tell tale sign of what the dog is, but what the breeder has envisioned for that litter. The price of a pup.......... isn't necessarily what it is *worth* but what the breeder intends on it achieving.



Yet, just like ANYTHING being sold on the 'open-market' to the public, the public or buyers, actually set the price, right?  

Same breeder that thinks SO HIGHLY of their dogs/breed, can ASK/DEMAND all day long a certain price, your example $1,000, but what happens when the pups are 4, 5, 6 months old and no buyers?  Do you continue to demand/ask the higher price, because you FEEL they are worth more, or you're holding out hope for "that" buyer?  Or do you sacrifice price, based on what the market (buyers) can afford/willing to pay?  As with any business, the consumers ALWAYS set the price-point, at least to a degree.


----------



## tuffdawg

JR said:


> Yet, just like ANYTHING being sold on the 'open-market' to the public, the public or buyers, actually set the price, right?
> 
> Same breeder that thinks SO HIGHLY of their dogs/breed, can ASK/DEMAND all day long a certain price, your example $1,000, but what happens when the pups are 4, 5, 6 months old and no buyers?  Do you continue to demand/ask the higher price, because you FEEL they are worth more, or you're holding out hope for "that" buyer?  Or do you sacrifice price, based on what the market (buyers) can afford/willing to pay?  As with any business, the consumers ALWAYS set the price-point, at least to a degree.



A reputable breeder will determine what a dogs worth is. Once that is done, a good dependable breeder will settle on that fact that if a dog does not go for the asking price........ then the dog does not need to be sold. 

More factors than just the bloodline determines what a pup is worth. If a breeder has sat on a pup longer than expected, then many times the worth of the pup is set higher, mainly because then you have to consider the vet cost, and training expenses on that dog. 

A tell tale sign of a not so great breeder is one that goes DOWN on price of a pup the older it gets. When in reality, the worth of that pup is actually greater, depending on whether or not the breeder put the time and effort into the puppy to help it reach its full potential.


----------



## JR

tuffdawg said:


> A reputable breeder will determine what a dogs worth is. Once that is done, a good dependable breeder will settle on that fact that if a dog does not go for the asking price........ then the dog does not need to be sold.
> 
> More factors than just the bloodline determines what a pup is worth. If a breeder has sat on a pup longer than expected, then many times the worth of the pup is set higher, mainly because then you have to consider the vet cost, and training expenses on that dog.
> 
> A tell tale sign of a not so great breeder is one that goes DOWN on price of a pup the older it gets. When in reality, the worth of that pup is actually greater, depending on whether or not the breeder put the time and effort into the puppy to help it reach its full potential.



Well, that MAY be the case, but I'll speculate that only the LARGEST of breeders can absorb this (having/keeping all pups).  With that, MOST, 'smaller' breeders do not have the time, money, or space to handle keep the bulk of a litter each and every time a dog has one...  Sheer numbers says so.  So, what then?  Does a breeder ONLY breed their dogs once they have all the rights to possible born/healthy pups sold?  Or negotiate their price, if they don't sell as fast as they first thought?


----------



## tuffdawg

JR said:


> Well, that MAY be the case, but I'll speculate that only the LARGEST of breeders can absorb this (having/keeping all pups).  With that, MOST, 'smaller' breeders do not have the time, money, or space to handle keep the bulk of a litter each and every time a dog has one...  Sheer numbers says so.  So, what then?  Does a breeder ONLY breed their dogs once they have all the rights to possible born/healthy pups sold?  Or negotiate their price, if they don't sell as fast as they first thought?



A real breeder goes into a breeding with the understanding that, that particular litter is for the improvement for the breed. 

And speaking from personal experience, I have only had one litter in my lifetime that I studied for......... I am currently expecting two litters as we speak. I dont really care if they sell or not. The purpose of these breedings is to establish what I am founding my kennel on. I will ask a reasonable price, if they sell at that so be it, if not they will all remain with me. 

If a breeder "cant afford" to be "stuck" with a litter they have bred, then they have no RIGHT to be breeding in the first place. 

Only ONE time have I ever negotiated a price of a pup. That was because the pup was sold....... and returned to me, Non refundable at the age of 17 weeks. I turned around and resold the pup AGAIN at mainly an adoption fee with NO PAPERS. That pup had no training. I would not have cared if he had remained with me from here on. 

A reputable breeder is not concerned about money, because if they are, they are out of their mind. There is no money to be made in breeding dogs unless you have the puppy mill mentality going along to clear a profit. For a breeder to actually clear a profit in a years time, there would have to be more than 3 litters a year produced. Something of which a good small time breeder can not do.


----------



## JR

tuffdawg said:


> A reputable breeder is not concerned about money, because if they are, they are out of their mind. There is no money to be made in breeding dogs unless you have the puppy mill mentality going along to clear a profit. For a breeder to actually clear a profit in a years time, there would have to be more than 3 litters a year produced. Something of which a good small time breeder can not do.



Again, this isn't your typical person that breeds dogs to sell them.


----------



## tuffdawg

JR said:


> Again, this isn't your typical person that breeds dogs to sell them.



A puppy mill maybe. I bred mine in order to build my kennel. In other words, if my dogs dont sell then I dont care. 

A good breeder will not negotiate the price of a worthy puppy.


----------



## onemilmhz

tuffdawg said:


> A puppy mill maybe. I bred mine in order to build my kennel. In other words, if my dogs dont sell then I dont care.
> 
> A good breeder will not negotiate the price of a worthy puppy.


Exactly how many dogs do you have??? 



tuffdawg said:


> If a breeder "cant afford" to be "stuck" with a litter they have bred, then they have no RIGHT to be breeding in the first place.


You're thinking in best case scenario, perfect terms here.  What you're are basically saying is that unless someone can afford to suck up a $1000 per dog hit, they don't need to be breeding?  I think a more realistic view would be that any breeder in his right mind will lower the price according to demand, until the point he CAN suck up the loss.  If the breeder feels that a dog is worth $1000 but can't get it sold until it gets to $500, he needs to decide if that price is what he is willing to let it go for.  How is it any different than if he were selling widgets, cars or turkey sandwiches?  Subway started selling their's for $5 and people flooded the stores.  Now every sandwich shop in the world has to have a $5 menu because the people DEMAND it!

To bring this back to topic, "silver" labs are being (ignorantly) sought after and hence the price is (ignorantly) high.


----------



## tuffdawg

And for those that keep sending me pm's and that keep asking me questions...... I do NOT claim to be a professional breeder. I am new at it as are many folks here....... you have to start somewhere and there is no fault there. I have never claimed to be something that I am not.


----------



## tuffdawg

onemilmhz said:


> You're thinking in best case scenario, perfect terms here.  What you're are basically saying is that unless someone can afford to suck up a $1000 per dog hit, they don't need to be breeding?  I think a more realistic view would be that any breeder in his right mind will lower the price according to demand, until the point he CAN suck up the loss.  If the breeder feels that a dog is worth $1000 but can't get it sold until it gets to $500, he needs to decide if that price is what he is willing to let it go for.  How is it any different than if he were selling widgets, cars or turkey sandwiches?  Subway started selling their's for $5 and people flooded the stores.  Now every sandwich shop in the world has to have a $5 menu because the people DEMAND it!



That is not what I am saying at all. 

See you folks are not paying attention. You are all reading and comprehending what you want too. 

The entire point that I am making is this..... A breeder can and will charge what they want. Some breeders dont care what the demand is............. some do. 

I based the price of my last litter with the understanding of the economy. I had a litter priced at $400 when I could have very well sold them for $600 +

However not one time did I ever negotiate the price of a puppy. 

If you folks would actually  READ my post. You would see where I am coming from.


----------



## tuffdawg

onemilmhz said:


> Exactly how many dogs do you have???
> 
> You're thinking in best case scenario, perfect terms here.  What you're are basically saying is that unless someone can afford to suck up a $1000 per dog hit, they don't need to be breeding?  I think a more realistic view would be that any breeder in his right mind will lower the price according to demand, until the point he CAN suck up the loss.  If the breeder feels that a dog is worth $1000 but can't get it sold until it gets to $500, he needs to decide if that price is what he is willing to let it go for.  How is it any different than if he were selling widgets, cars or turkey sandwiches?  Subway started selling their's for $5 and people flooded the stores.  Now every sandwich shop in the world has to have a $5 menu because the people DEMAND it!
> 
> To bring this back to topic, "silver" labs are being (ignorantly) sought after and hence the price is (ignorantly) high.



 I have seven all together. How many do you have?


----------



## JR

tuffdawg said:


> A puppy mill maybe. I bred mine in order to build my kennel. In other words, if my dogs dont sell then I dont care.
> 
> A good breeder will not negotiate the price of a worthy puppy.



Right, kennels, who do this for a living and have plenty of capital (read:  money), and time (since it's their job) and qualifications (breeding and/or training certifications), sure they can keep any/all unsold pups, train them and even breed them... But most dog purchases are made from individuals... Folks who may own a sire/dame and breed them, and sell the pups.  Call this scenario a "puppy mill" if you want, but typically how it happens, and yes, it's a source (however small) of income or a way to get an R.O.I on their dogs...


----------



## JR

tuffdawg said:


> A good breeder will not negotiate the price of a worthy puppy.





tuffdawg said:


> I based the price of my last litter with the understanding of the economy. I had a litter priced at $400 when I could have very well sold them for $600 +
> 
> 
> If you folks would actually  READ my post. You would see where I am coming from.



tuffdawg, I've read all of your posts in here, but see these two????  Well, and I hate to seem like I'm splitting hairs here, but isn't what goes into the economy part of supply/demand, and what folks can or are WILLING to spend money on?  So you could have "very well sold for $600+", but you LOWERED your price?  I thought "a good breeder will not negotiate the price of a worthy puppy"?  Now, that's smart to ADAPT to the economy and what you perceive folks can afford, but it can also be worded that you lowered your prices to insure all of the pups sold, right?   So though you say breeders set the price, and can get what the pups are worth, you come right out and admit that you in fact, did just the opposite and sold them for less that what they were worth.  Just an observation, based on what you've typed here.


----------



## JR

onemilmhz said:


> You're thinking in best case scenario, perfect terms here.  What you're are basically saying is that unless someone can afford to suck up a $1000 per dog hit, they don't need to be breeding?  I think a more realistic view would be that any breeder in his right mind will lower the price according to demand, until the point he CAN suck up the loss.  If the breeder feels that a dog is worth $1000 but can't get it sold until it gets to $500, he needs to decide if that price is what he is willing to let it go for.  How is it any different than if he were selling widgets, cars or turkey sandwiches?  Subway started selling their's for $5 and people flooded the stores.  Now every sandwich shop in the world has to have a $5 menu because the people DEMAND it!



Yep.  Simple high school economics.


----------



## tuffdawg

JR said:


> tuffdawg, I've read all of your posts in here, but see these two????  Well, and I hate to seem like I'm splitting hairs here, but isn't what goes into the economy part of supply/demand, and what folks can or are WILLING to spend money on?  So you could have "very well sold for $600+", but you LOWERED your price?  I thought "a good breeder will not negotiate the price of a worthy puppy"?  Now, that's smart to ADAPT to the economy and what you perceive folks can afford, but it can also be worded that you lowered your prices to insure all of the pups sold, right?   So though you say breeders set the price, and can get what the pups are worth, you come right out and admit that you in fact, did just the opposite and sold them for less that what they were worth.  Just an observation, based on what you've typed here.



again this all falls back on the fact that the price of any pup is at the breeders discretion. Plain and simple. 

If anyone else has any questions feel free to pm me.  I am tired of repeating myself over and over again.


----------



## tuffdawg

JR how many dogs to you have?


----------



## tuffdawg

JR said:


> Breeders discretion of what the pups are worth?  So you valued your litter as being worthy of $600+, yet you sold them for less.  Why?   Why wasn't this litter worthy of the $600+ price tag?
> 
> And no, I'm not picking on you, but when you staunchly stand behind pricing of dogs being based on the breeder, and aren't (at least by you) negotiated, then why would you place the worth of your latest sells at $200+ more than what you sold them for?


 I guess it makes you feel good to keep trying to twist  the point I am trying to make to suit your own purpose. Nice try.  Hope you and your buds enjoy it.


----------



## onemilmhz

tuffdawg said:


> JR said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Breeders discretion of what the pups are worth? So you valued your litter as being worthy of $600+, yet you sold them for less. Why? Why wasn't this litter worthy of the $600+ price tag?
> 
> And no, I'm not picking on you, but when you staunchly stand behind pricing of dogs being based on the breeder, and aren't (at least by you) negotiated, *then why would you place the worth of your latest sells at $200+ more than what you sold them for?*
> 
> 
> 
> I guess it makes you feel good to keep trying to twist  the point I am trying to make to suit your own purpose. Nice try.  Hope you and your buds enjoy it.
Click to expand...


I think his point is this: you admitted to adjusting the price on your pups based on the economy.  Point proven.

Now, trying to keep this on topic again... why do you think "silver" pups in particular are more expensive than others if not for buyer demand?  Do you believe they are some how worth more because they are silver or because they are popular?


----------



## JR

tuffdawg said:


> I guess it makes you feel good to keep trying to twist  the point I am trying to make to suit your own purpose. Nice try.  Hope you and your buds enjoy it.



Did I twist your posts I quoted?  I'm sorry, but my economics background has a hard time comprehending the whole "price setting" by the breeder (supplier).  And yet you proved that, but don't want to (for some reason) admit it?  I'm sorry if I've upset you, it was nothing on purpose, just questions.

Oh, and to address another question of your's.. How many dogs do I own?  Does this somehow qualify me on whether I can answer/participate in this discussion?


----------



## JR

onemilmhz said:


> I think his point is this: you admitted to adjusting the price on your pups based on the economy.  Point proven.



Kinda what I thought.


----------



## tuffdawg

onemilmhz said:


> I think his point is this: you admitted to adjusting the price on your pups based on the economy.  Point proven.



No I admitted to adjusting the price of my pups at MY DISCRETION...... I just kept the economy in MIND. POINT PROVEN.


----------



## tuffdawg

JR said:


> Did I twist your posts I quoted?  I'm sorry, but my economics background has a hard time comprehending the whole "price setting" by the breeder (supplier).  And yet you proved that, but don't want to (for some reason) admit it?  I'm sorry if I've upset you, it was nothing on purpose, just questions.
> 
> Oh, and to address another question of your's.. How many dogs do I own?  Does this somehow qualify me on whether I can answer/participate in this discussion?


NO but it sure would justify your purpose here.


----------



## JR

zzweims said:


> Jessicay:
> 
> I love your avatar.  That puppy is adorable!  Here's a picture of some of mine at about the same age.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> btw, I asked the same price.  But I paid all registration and futurity fees, plus membership in the parent club, and lifetime moneyback health gaurentees.  And they do come from proven lines.  EVERY dog in the 4 gen pedigree has field titles.  Sire and dam are 2xNAFC FC AFC Aztec's American Pie, JH, SDX and Amor's Amsel zum Ziel, SH, SDX, NRD
> 
> What's the pedigree on your pup?





onemilmhz said:


> Through all the banter (and my own reading) I've gathered this much- AKC recognizes Yellow, Black and Chocolate.  Therefore, there is no such thing as a Silver, Red Fox, Charcoal, Pink Panther or Purple People Eater lab.  Call it whatever you want, your "Silver" lab is a Chocolate.
> 
> Having said that, are we really sitting here arguing about what someone calls their Yellow, Black or Chocolate lab?  I don't think so.  I believe the question at hand is whether or not breeders breeding for color alone have any interest in improving the breed, correct?  Jessicay (and others), are you trying to tell us that you are improving the breed by trying to get certain colors?  If so, do you have facts to back up those claims?  Not some website, or breeders opinion, but facts backed by research of a scientific nature.  If so, I would love to see it.





tuffdawg said:


> NO but it sure would justify your purpose here.



These two quoted posts above caught my eye... Very intriguing questions and situations poised in both.   I was drawn into the conversation with other posts, but these two were the beginning.


----------



## JR

tuffdawg said:


> No I admitted to adjusting the price of my pups at MY DISCRETION...... I just kept the economy in MIND. POINT PROVEN.



Which point?  One point being-- You set your own price (first time you've used that, you've been using WORTH)?  OR, your point being, Your price (worth?) is based with the economy (supply/demand/disposable income of your target clientele) in mind?  

Cause these are kinda opposites, especially if you revert back to using the same terminology:  "worth".


----------



## contender*

Very interesting thread. I would have to go along with some of the others here. The reasons the "silver" labs are selling higher or are in higher demand is the same reason I could sell my chocolate/liver/red beagles for a premium. Everybody doesn't have one. There are a lot of folks out there that want something slightly different than everyone else. Years ago when I had labs the "color" lab to have was a chocolate, that was just the rage at the time. The dog was no smarter, no faster, no easier to train, it was just a different color. Now they bring no more than the yellows or blacks. Same goes for the chocolate or lemon beagles, they're no smarter than a tri-color,  but I had folks tearing the door down when they found out I had a chocolate one for sale. Frankly I don't blame the owners for getting that premium, cause raising dogs ain't cheap.If you've ever raised a litter or two (and do it right) you know what I mean. In the end it really doesn't matter what the reason is, I just enjoy my dogs. Nothing better than watching them push the limits of that shock collar as you pull into the driveway, just waiting for you to come into their "territory" so they can run along side the car for 30 feet barking, waiting for you to put that thing in park so you'll get out and patem on the head. After a tough day putting up with folk's , it's nice to know that there's somebody at home that's looking forward to your arrival.


----------



## browning84

jessicay said:


> well, i sure do hope that I answered your questions.
> 
> I already have browning84 down for one of my titled pups you want me to put you down for one also. After she gets her titles!!



I tell you what, if you personally put a GRHRCH, NFC, or NAFC on a breeding pair of “Silver Lab’s” I will pay top dollar for pick of the litter.


----------



## JR

browning84 said:


> I tell you what, if you personally put a GRHRCH, NFC, or NAFC on a breeding pair of “Silver Lab’s” I will pay top dollar for pick of the litter.



Careful... Apparently we're dealing with some 'protected' folks in here....


----------



## hogdawg

jessicay, who are you going to get to train your dogs?  you know I train on the side


----------



## jessicay

WOW, boys you have been busy. Well, I do have time today to fuss with you today. Give me a couple of days and my phone line will be back. The storms knocked it out last night.

I will give you another forum to read, i though it was interesting.

http://pub12.bravenet.com/forum/976632990/show/778274


----------



## jessicay

Tuff after all this stuff,

I think I am going to have to take you out and buy you a Margarita.  

And we can sit back and laugh at these jokers!!!


----------



## tuffdawg

jessicay said:


> Tuff after all this stuff,
> 
> I think I am going to have to take you out and buy you a Margarita.
> 
> And we can sit back and laugh at these jokers!!!



 I am SO TOTALLY overdue for that!


----------



## jessicay

I guess I will have to bring my husband so he can be my DD


----------



## tuffdawg

jessicay said:


> I guess I will have to bring my husband so he can be my DD



 I will just crash over at your place. Good thing you have a man-sitter.


----------



## jessicay

hogdawg said:


> jessicay, who are you going to get to train your dogs?  you know I train on the side



Thanks for the offer! You mean you would help me train a silver labs. well i'll be boys I might just be making a break through on woody's!!


----------



## tuffdawg

jessicay said:


> Thanks for the offer! You mean you would help me train a silver labs. well i'll be boys I might just be making a break through on woody's!!



 Did it just get cold?


----------



## jessicay




----------



## hogdawg

jessicay said:


> You mean you would help me train a silver labs.



Come on now, you know better than that.    I'm just tryin' to keep a sense of humor through all this arguing!


----------



## hogdawg

"I saw silvers for the first time about 25 years ago. They were from a combination of field/show breeding. Some of the best import lines were represented. I traced the pedigree back at that time and found the first silvers in the line were a cross back on ONE specific litter. That breeder also owned Weims. I suspect some (if not all) of the pups in that litter were sired by a Weim. The litter was from a chocolate dam, so the pups would have all been chocolate - other than by type, you would not have known the sire was anything other than a Lab. 

A grandaughter from one of the females of that litter was crossed back to a dog from that litter in the pedigree and some of the pups were registered as "silver". There may certainly have been other places this cropped up over the years, but THIS particular silver line was traced back to one litter that may have introduced all the dilution we see today. I was glad that I did the pedigree research when it was still only 4 generations back." 


Is this the part you found interesting?


----------



## browning84

jessicay said:


> Tuff after all this stuff,
> 
> I think I am going to have to take you out and buy you a Margarita.
> 
> And we can sit back and laugh at these jokers!!!





tuffdawg said:


> I am SO TOTALLY overdue for that!



Why so ya’ll can talk about bad breeding practices, aka breeding for color.




jessicay said:


> well i'll be boys I might just be making a break through on woody's!!



Don't count on it


----------



## onemilmhz

jessicay's link said:
			
		

> I saw silvers for the first time about 25 years ago. They were from a combination of field/show breeding. Some of the best import lines were represented. I traced the pedigree back at that time and found the first silvers in the line were a cross back on ONE specific litter. *That breeder also owned Weims. I suspect some (if not all) of the pups in that litter were sired by a Weim.* The litter was from a chocolate dam, so the pups would have all been chocolate - other than by type, you would not have known the sire was anything other than a Lab.


Ooops...


----------



## tuffdawg

browning84 said:


> Why so ya’ll can talk about bad breeding practices, aka breeding for color.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't count on it



I dont breed anything for color.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

Any dog, or combination thereof can be bred for whatever purpose anyone intends it for. As to calling it rare for purposes of getting high prices?, Well AKC is quite specific on their standards as cited here from their website;

*"Color
*The Labrador Retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color or a combination of colors is a disqualification. A small white spot on the chest is permissible, but not desirable. White hairs from aging or scarring are not to be misinterpreted as brindling. _Black_--Blacks are all black. A black with brindle markings or a black with tan markings is a disqualification. _Yellow_--Yellows may range in color from fox-red to light cream, with variations in shading on the ears, back, and underparts of the dog. _Chocolate_--Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification."

http://www.akc.org/breeds/labrador_retriever/index.cfm

Outside fo those guidelines I have seen at least three major topics intermingled into one on this thread. They should all be discussed separately as to prevent confusing the issues at hand.

#1 - AKC Breed Standards (see quote above)

#2 - Licensed or reputable kennel / breeders. If an individual or group of individuals are going to represent themselves as professional or reputable breeders and charge exorbitant prices for unregisterable breeds then I have to consider the source from a business perspective. I am going to check them out at there local municipalities office to A) make sure they are a licensed business, B) See if they are a LLC, C-corp or S-corp. C) Get a receipt with written guarantees and certificates of health pertaining to the animal for future liability purposes.

#3 - General business practices. (this is the one that so many are confused about) Regardless of the economic climate prices are determined in a particular area / region by what the market will bare. If you are a licensed legitimate tax paying business then you will understand cost runs and overhead vs profits and profit margins. If you wish to ask $10,000 dollars for your product and the market will bear it then good on you. If you market a product void of these considerations and you cannot justify that price then you have some economic lessons coming your way courtesy of 'life'.

Personally, I would and have several times paid a fair amount for dogs from a registered, pedigreed bloodline with Champions on one or both sides. I have also paid very little to free for common unverifiable lineage dogs that turned out to be very intelligent and loyal dogs. Nothing in the registry or pedigree of a lineage of dog guarantees that you will get one that is any smarter than the paper you write your check on. However I have found that with qualified lineages there does seem to be a better mortality and health rate, especially when purchased from qualified breeders.

Bottom line is, you advertise what you selling in a fair and truthful manner and charge what the market will bear. Beyond that most of what I have read in here is pure hyperbole.


----------



## jessicay

hogdawg said:


> "I saw silvers for the first time about 25 years ago. They were from a combination of field/show breeding. Some of the best import lines were represented. I traced the pedigree back at that time and found the first silvers in the line were a cross back on ONE specific litter. That breeder also owned Weims. I suspect some (if not all) of the pups in that litter were sired by a Weim. The litter was from a chocolate dam, so the pups would have all been chocolate - other than by type, you would not have known the sire was anything other than a Lab.
> 
> A grandaughter from one of the females of that litter was crossed back to a dog from that litter in the pedigree and some of the pups were registered as "silver". There may certainly have been other places this cropped up over the years, but THIS particular silver line was traced back to one litter that may have introduced all the dilution we see today. I was glad that I did the pedigree research when it was still only 4 generations back."
> 
> 
> Is this the part you found interesting?




No, see there you guys go again, jumping in way over your head. This is what I found interesting.

"I have a nice chocolate boy that i just has color tested, He carries the gene that would produce silvers, im really confused since im not aware of any silvers in his line as his line is of VERY well known dogs. I dont pretend to understand the exact color genes they carry but this is the only labrador that I have that came back carrying that gene. HELP me understand please?? I dont have silvers, would not have a silver and I assume i wont get silver from him unless he is bred to one. Im still learning and that is why im asking you"

So, if it is showing up in the top line dogs what does that mean???


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

jessicay said:


> So, if it is showing up in the top line dogs what does that mean???


 
It tells me that just like an albino, recessive genes do exist, but are not dominate, thus are discounted at the Registry level.


----------



## jessicay

Why can't we just agree to disagree on this subject.

As long as AKC still regs. my dogs I will be breeding them PERIOD. End of subject!!

Like I said in my first post, I am not going to change the way you all think, and you WILL not change the way I think. 
But this has been fun, I must say. I live for debates like this. But we are getting no where with each other.


----------



## jessicay

scooter1 said:


> It tells me that just like an albino, recessive genes do exist, but are not dominate, thus are discounted at the Registry level.




OK, I was done but I had to say ONE more thing.


REALLY they exist!!! WOW, this is the first step!!! I can take baby steps with you all.


----------



## hogdawg

tuffdawg said:


> I dont breed anything for color.



But you drink margaritas with people that do?  just askin'


----------



## hogdawg

Mmmm... no coment on that.  Do us all a favor, after 2 or 3 margaritas, why don't you see if you can get jessicay to post one of these wonderful pedigrees we've all been hearing about.  That would be great!


----------



## browning84

hogdawg said:


> Mmmm... no coment on that.  Do us all a favor, after 2 or 3 margaritas, why don't you see if you can get jessicay to post one of these wonderful pedigrees we've all been hearing about.  That would be great!



When you know what freezes over will we ever see that happen


----------



## NGaHunter

hogdawg said:


> Mmmm... no coment on that.  Do us all a favor, after 2 or 3 margaritas, why don't you see if you can get jessicay to post one of these wonderful pedigrees we've all been hearing about.  That would be great!



Forget the Pedigree...I would like to see OFA Numbers, CERF, EIC and CNM Clearences....Breed to improve the breed.  These are the things lacking from most litters listed up here.


----------



## zzweims

jessicay said:


> No, see there you guys go again, jumping in way over your head. This is what I found interesting.
> 
> "I have a nice chocolate boy that i just has color tested, He carries the gene that would produce silvers, im really confused since im not aware of any silvers in his line as his line is of VERY well known dogs. I dont pretend to understand the exact color genes they carry but this is the only labrador that I have that came back carrying that gene. HELP me understand please?? I dont have silvers, would not have a silver and I assume i wont get silver from him unless he is bred to one. Im still learning and that is why im asking you"
> 
> So, if it is showing up in the top line dogs what does that mean???



I find this interesting too.  To date, the WEIMARANER community has not found a reliable 'color test' to see if our dogs carry the silver gene.  How can someone test a lab for such if it can't be done in a weim?


----------



## JR

browning84 said:


> When you know what freezes over will we ever see that happen





NGaHunter said:


> Forget the Pedigree...I would like to see OFA Numbers, CERF, EIC and CNM Clearences....Breed to improve the breed.  These are the things lacking from most litters listed up here.





zzweims said:


> I find this interesting too.  To date, the WEIMARANER community has not found a reliable 'color test' to see if our dogs carry the silver gene.  How can someone test a lab for such if it can't be done in a weim?


----------



## gsubo

There is no such thing as a pure full blooded dog of any breed.   All have evolved over generations from different breeds.   That being said I have a chocolate "lab" that has a white star on his chest. Of course I dont have any kind of papers on him because Im sure his father was mixed with something else.  Got lucky and he still retreives great. Next time I will go with a true registered lab pup with a good hunting background.  This is where I think having papers is valuable.


----------



## tuffdawg

gsubo said:


> There is no such thing as a pure full blooded dog of any breed.   All have evolved over generations from different breeds.   That being said I have a chocolate "lab" that has a white star on his chest. Of course I dont have any kind of papers on him because Im sure his father was mixed with something else.  Got lucky and he still retreives great. Next time I will go with a true registered lab pup with a good hunting background.  This is where I think having papers is valuable.



 And I have THAT proof to back that up.  Just gonna have to wait until tomorrow night when I get my scanner hooked up to scan the pages and printouts to show ya.


----------



## hogdawg

NGaHunter said:


> Forget the Pedigree...I would like to see OFA Numbers, CERF, EIC and CNM Clearences....Breed to improve the breed.  These are the things lacking from most litters listed up here.



Man, I couldn't 2nd that more!  



tuffdawg said:


> And I have THAT proof to back that up.  Just gonna have to wait until tomorrow night when I get my scanner hooked up to scan the pages and printouts to show ya.



Don't waste your time snake lady.  Nobody's arguing that.


----------



## 91xjgawes

hogdawg said:


> Mmmm... no coment on that.  Do us all a favor, after 2 or 3 margaritas, why don't you see if you can get jessicay to post one of these wonderful pedigrees we've all been hearing about.  That would be great!



this would be great


----------



## Senior Vato

I've been following this thread for the past couple of days although not a member until today.  I had to jump in and get behind JessicaY.  She does have great dogs.  I bought two last month.  One sister to her Avatar and the Sire to the litter.  Someone asked about Certifications on her dogs...The stud dog I got from her came with OFA hips GOOD, OFA elbows NORMAL, Cerf up to date and CLEAR as well as Optigen, AKC DNA...Jess, you got a friend, keep up the great work on improving the Silver coat, get those titles as I know you will.  
By the way..The weim deal...It doesn' t fly with me.  I am sure it has happened and may still be.  I see some Silver Breeder websites with their Center Piece dogs on the front page, and think to myself....My God man, it's people like you that give people ammo to shoot at the entire Silver breed.  There are a few...yes a few good, reputable breeders out there.  Their goals are to get away from the standard silver bloodlines, Bring in CH titled dogs and improve on their own lines.  That is exactly what JessicaY is doing.  That is what any Silver breeder is doing if they have the love of the breed in their heart and not dollars first.  There are so many Silver Breeders out there that this is all they do...Silver to Silver and the gene pool is in no way big enough to support that type of breeding.  Here is a website that is exactly what ethical Silver Breeders are trying to stay away from...ain't he purdy?
http://silverheartkennel.com/


----------



## 3.5 YR-OLD BAMBI

jessicay it seem that some of these guys on here never did thier home work when they were kids. They are still  not doing it  today. 

A silver or charcoal lab are as much of a labs as Dicken Dall Arnold is in the show world and lean mac is in the hunting world.

The only difference is they Carrie the dilute gene. This allow them to have silver"light chocolate" And charcoal dilute black. You give some of the reputable breeder out there that are breeding for improvement a few more years I would put any of their silvers against any of your dogs or any dog a matter of fact. I will admit that there are some messed up looking silvers out there but that is from years of people breeding for the money and not to better the breed.


----------



## 3.5 YR-OLD BAMBI

hogdawg said:


> "I saw silvers for the first time about 25 years ago. They were from a combination of field/show breeding. Some of the best import lines were represented. I traced the pedigree back at that time and found the first silvers in the line were a cross back on ONE specific litter. That breeder also owned Weims. I suspect some (if not all) of the pups in that litter were sired by a Weim. The litter was from a chocolate dam, so the pups would have all been chocolate - other than by type, you would not have known the sire was anything other than a Lab.
> 
> A grandaughter from one of the females of that litter was crossed back to a dog from that litter in the pedigree and some of the pups were registered as "silver". There may certainly have been other places this cropped up over the years, but THIS particular silver line was traced back to one litter that may have introduced all the dilution we see today. I was glad that I did the pedigree research when it was still only 4 generations back."
> 
> 
> Is this the part you found interesting?



As for this hog dawg you must do the same thing in church sunday only read what you want to see. I bet you are one of the type that say IT IS OK TO DRINK BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAY THAT JESUS DRINKS WINE. lol


----------



## 3.5 YR-OLD BAMBI

zzweims said:


> Jessicay:
> 
> I love your avatar.  That puppy is adorable!  Here's a picture of some of mine at about the same age.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> btw, I asked the same price.  But I paid all registration and futurity fees, plus membership in the parent club, and lifetime moneyback health gaurentees.  And they do come from proven lines.  EVERY dog in the 4 gen pedigree has field titles.  Sire and dam are 2xNAFC FC AFC Aztec's American Pie, JH, SDX and Amor's Amsel zum Ziel, SH, SDX, NRD
> 
> What's the pedigree on your pup?



as far as comparing these wormy looking  pups to jessicay's you cant. Her dogs have way more bone to them. Look at just the head alone. Like i said in my last post that there are some silvers that look like your dogs but you cant judge everyone just on those few.


----------



## Senior Vato

3.5 YR-OLD BAMBI said:


> jessicay it seem that some of these guys on here never did thier home work when they were kids. They are still  not doing it  today.
> 
> A silver or charcoal lab are as much of a labs as Dicken Dall Arnold is in the show world and lean mac is in the hunting world.
> 
> The only difference is they Carrie the dilute gene. This allow them to have silver"light chocolate" And charcoal dilute black. You give some of the reputable breeder out there that are breeding for improvement a few more years I would put any of their silvers against any of your dogs or any dog a matter of fact. I will admit that there are some messed up looking silvers out there but that is from years of people breeding for the money and not to better the breed.



You hit the nail on the head Bambi...thanks, people gotta get over it, Silvers are here, they aren't going anywhere, maybe some of the poor breeders are going somewhere but, a solid, reputable breeder with the Lab in their heart will be here for a very long time.  They will end up in the ring, it may be a while but, they will be there.


----------



## 91xjgawes

Senior Vato said:


> I've been following this thread for the past couple of days although not a member until today.  I had to jump in and get behind JessicaY.  She does have great dogs.  I bought two last month.  One sister to her Avatar and the Sire to the litter.  Someone asked about Certifications on her dogs...The stud dog I got from her came with OFA hips GOOD, OFA elbows NORMAL, Cerf up to date and CLEAR as well as Optigen, AKC DNA...Jess, you got a friend, keep up the great work on improving the Silver coat, get those titles as I know you will.
> By the way..The weim deal...It doesn' t fly with me.  I am sure it has happened and may still be.  I see some Silver Breeder websites with their Center Piece dogs on the front page, and think to myself....My God man, it's people like you that give people ammo to shoot at the entire Silver breed.  There are a few...yes a few good, reputable breeders out there.  Their goals are to get away from the standard silver bloodlines, Bring in CH titled dogs and improve on their own lines.  That is exactly what JessicaY is doing.  That is what any Silver breeder is doing if they have the love of the breed in their heart and not dollars first.  There are so many Silver Breeders out there that this is all they do...Silver to Silver and the gene pool is in no way big enough to support that type of breeding.  Here is a website that is exactly what ethical Silver Breeders are trying to stay away from...ain't he purdy?
> http://silverheartkennel.com/



are you serious? there are standards for a reason. if a puppy comes out silver it should not be able to be registered... breeding for a certain coat color is irresponsible breeding...


----------



## 91xjgawes

oh and senior vato, can you honestly look at that dog in your avatar and say it does not resemble a weimeraner?


----------



## JuliaH

What kind of pups do you think these are?  I think they are beautiful!!

Julia



3.5 YR-OLD BAMBI said:


> as far as comparing these wormy looking pups to jessicay's you cant. Her dogs have way more bone to them. Look at just the head alone. Like i said in my last post that there are some silvers that look like your dogs but you cant judge everyone just on those few.


----------



## 3.5 YR-OLD BAMBI

JuliaH said:


> What kind of pups do you think these are?  I think they are beautiful!!
> 
> Julia



     I didnt mean that they were ugly for a wormeraner the are nice. But i feel they cant be compared.


----------



## JuliaH

Its apples and oranges as far as breed comparison but to call them wormy looking??  That is a sad comment indeed... 

These are probably some of the best weims anywhere.



3.5 YR-OLD BAMBI said:


> I didnt mean that they were ugly for a wormeraner the are nice. But i feel they cant be compared.


----------



## 91xjgawes

JuliaH said:


> Its apples and oranges as far as breed comparison but to call them wormy looking??  That is a sad comment indeed...
> 
> These are probably some of the best weims anywhere.



i agree 100%


----------



## 3.5 YR-OLD BAMBI

apples and oranges  is what i am trying to say but he should not have attacked jessicay


----------



## 91xjgawes

maybe im not reading good enough but zzweims never attacked her..???
this is what he said to her, he def did not call her pups wormy...
Jessicay:

I love your avatar. That puppy is adorable! Here's a picture of some of mine at about the same age.


----------



## Senior Vato

91xjgawes said:


> oh and senior vato, can you honestly look at that dog in your avatar and say it does not resemble a weimeraner?



You honestly think that looks weim...are you serious?  Sure the coat color..DUH...And your Avatar?  Is that supposed to be a great looking Lab?  Looks a bit Houndy to me...


----------



## Senior Vato

91xjgawes said:


> are you serious? there are standards for a reason. if a puppy comes out silver it should not be able to be registered... breeding for a certain coat color is irresponsible breeding...



So, what you are saying is..breeders don't breed for blacks only? for yellows only?  for choc's only?  They are irresponsible as well?


----------



## Senior Vato

91xjgawes said:


> oh and senior vato, can you honestly look at that dog in your avatar and say it does not resemble a weimeraner?



Does that make you feel better about yourself now...maybe this is what you think a Silver Lab should look like...


----------



## 3.5 YR-OLD BAMBI

senior vato they must not look at some of the american bred labs your dog look alot better than most.


----------



## 3.5 YR-OLD BAMBI

91xjgawes said:


> maybe im not reading good enough but zzweims never attacked her..???
> this is what he said to her, he def did not call her pups wormy...
> Jessicay:
> 
> I love your avatar. That puppy is adorable! Here's a picture of some of mine at about the same age.



Ok let me put it to you this way. Lets say I wrote to you 91xjgawes and said hey i just love your avatar he is chocolate but he looks just like my  Weimaraners. Your dog could have also came from a weimaraner. He dont have alot of bone like the english labs do. Do you get my point now.


----------



## JR

Pathetic.


----------



## hogdawg

JR said:


> Pathetic.



...what, that snake lady and jessicay are getting their grammatically challenged friends to sign up on GON just to back them up when it is obvious that they too are clueless?

Yeah, I agree it is pretty pathetic.

still waiting on pedigrees


----------



## zzweims

3.5 YR-OLD BAMBI said:


> I didnt mean that they were ugly for a wormeraner the are nice. But i feel they cant be compared.



Actually, they can be compared.  I will gladly put my worms--er, weims-- in a duck blind next to any silver lab to prove who is the better retriever.  Then while we are enjoying margaritas, we'll let the dogs have a 'date' in the reeds and make a fortune off the resulting puppies


----------



## browning84

Senior Vato said:


> You honestly think that looks weim...are you serious?  Sure the coat color..DUH...And your Avatar?  Is that supposed to be a great looking Lab?  Looks a bit Houndy to me...



Your downing his avatar, good lord are you serious. Have you looked at you picture in you avatar. I have been out of town so I had to get caught up on this thread and by the looks of your avatar I thought it was a joke until a actually read you post and realized you are for the breeding of “silver labs”  it honestly looks like you photoshoped a weirmaraner’s head on the body of a sheep. But now I guess this is really a picture of a dog, or is it?


----------



## zzweims

While y'all were inside debating the color of your dogs this weekend, the 'wormy' little pup second from right in this photo was taking the blue ribbon in the Open Puppy stake at a field trial.  She was the only Weimaraner in a field of pointers, setters, and brittneys.

To the silver lab people, I don't care what color your dogs are or how they got that way.  But if you are going to discuss them on a hunting forum, then SHOW us how well your dogs can hunt.


----------



## jessicay

I just wanted to show off my new duck dog. I am already are starting her young!!  She WILL get her GRHRCH, NFC, or NAFC, to show you boys up!!

But I am done with the topic, just wanted to post her pics


----------



## jessicay

zzweims said:


> Actually, they can be compared.  I will gladly put my worms--er, weims-- in a duck blind next to any silver lab to prove who is the better retriever.  Then while we are enjoying margaritas, we'll let the dogs have a 'date' in the reeds and make a fortune off the resulting puppies



I already told you all, I will be in a blind next to you with my silver girl and your best Weimaraner. But after she beats you and your weimaraner, I will be drinking margaritas and ours dogs will never have a "date". She has better taste than that!!


----------



## browning84

jessicay said:


> I already told you all, I will be in a blind next to you with my silver girl and your best Weimaraner. But after she beats you and your weimaraner, I will be drinking margaritas and ours dogs will never have a "date". She has better taste than that!!



But her parents, grandparents, and or great grandparents didn't.


----------



## jessicay

browning84 said:


> But her parents, grandparents, and or great grandparents didn't.



Hmm, I am trying not to stay lose my cool here. But as I said before you do not know anything about them. But yes her grand sire is show CH, do you just write what ever comes to mind. I have said over and over on the GON that I like the look of a show dog over a field dog.  But her lines go back to beechcroft which is just one of the many CH on her pedigree.


----------



## jessicay

browning84 said:


> Your downing his avatar, good lord are you serious. Have you looked at you picture in you avatar. I have been out of town so I had to get caught up on this thread and by the looks of your avatar I thought it was a joke until a actually read you post and realized you are for the breeding of “silver labs”  it honestly looks like you photoshoped a weirmaraner’s head on the body of a sheep. But now I guess this is really a picture of a dog, or is it?




Yes you have been gone for the weekend . so what you don't know is he changed it, it was a joke. You all have no since of humor on here!! I though it was very funny Senior!!


----------



## jessicay

zzweims said:


> To the silver lab people, I don't care what color your dogs are or how they got that way.  But if you are going to discuss them on a hunting forum, then SHOW us how well your dogs can hunt.




That is my plan!! Give her time to grow up she is only 9 weeks old.


----------



## jessicay

hogdawg said:


> ...what, that snake lady and jessicay are getting their grammatically challenged friends to sign up on GON just to back them up when it is obvious that they too are clueless?
> 
> Yeah, I agree it is pretty pathetic.
> 
> still waiting on pedigrees



I do not have to show you anything, as long as I know that what I am saying to true you can just sit and wait on those pedigrees!!


----------



## browning84

jessicay said:


> Hmm, I am trying not to stay lose my cool here. But as I said before you do not know anything about them. But yes her grand sire is show CH, do you just write what ever comes to mind. I have said over and over on the GON that I like the look of a show dog over a field dog.  But her lines go back to beechcroft which is just one of the many CH on her pedigree.



yes


----------



## browning84

jessicay said:


> I do not have to show you anything, as long as I know that what I am saying to true you can just sit and wait on those pedigrees!!



Are you hiding something???


----------



## jessicay

browning84 said:


> Are you hiding something???




NO, i am not hiding anything. But all you all want to do is find something and turn it around.

Just like when I posted that link and you all went and found one persons opinion NOT FACT. And turned everything of what I was trying to make a point around. So why would I put my self out their like that again. 

Just wait until you buy one of my pups and than you will have her pedigree.


----------



## jessicay

browning84 said:


> yes


----------



## onemilmhz

jessicay said:


> I just wanted to show off my new duck dog. I am already are starting her young!!  She WILL get her GRHRCH, NFC, or NAFC, to show you boys up!!
> 
> But I am done with the topic, *just wanted to post her pics*


She's a beautiful _chocolate _jessicay, and will no doubt make a fine hunter.  But, what does she have to do with the "silver" labs you claim are so great?  Are you trying to tell us that she _is_ a "silver" or that you do have some legitimate labs after all?


----------



## jessicay

onemilmhz said:


> She's a beautiful _chocolate _jessicay, and will no doubt make a fine hunter.  But, what does she have to do with the "silver" labs you claim are so great?  Are you trying to tell us that she _is_ a "silver" or that you do have some legitimate labs after all?



First off thanks,  no she is a silver lab, we were at the pond and she went and got that duck out of the water and she was all wet. HMM, my hair color is darker when it is wet is yours not?? But this a topic of what types/color of dogs I raise. But as for me having legitimate labs, I have some of the best lines you can get your hands on. So yes I have black, yellow, and chocolate. But my silvers/charcoals are legitimate labs.


----------



## tuffdawg

That is a beast of a pup jessicay. No doubt in how well your dogs are taken care of. Gorgeous pup.


----------



## jessicay

tuffdawg said:


> That is a beast of a pup jessicay. No doubt in how well your dogs are taken care of. Gorgeous pup.



Thanks, I almost did not keep any pups back from this litter either.  I wish now I would have kept them all!!

I can't take all of the credit for this girl, she comes from years of great breeding behind her. But this shows everyone what a reputable silver breeder can produce, heck does not have to be a silver breeder.


----------



## hogdawg

jessicay said:


> NO, i am not hiding anything. But all you all want to do is find something and turn it around.



How do you turn a pedigree around?


----------



## zzweims

6 weeks old.  Note that the bird is still alive--unlike the one carried by the lab pup.


----------



## browning84

hogdawg said:


> How do you turn a pedigree around?



It is commonly referred to as hanging papers.


----------



## browning84

jessicay said:


> Just wait until you buy one of my pups and than you will have her pedigree.



There needs to be a second part to this deal where you keep referring to me buying a puppy. If you don’t make it to your part of the deal then you get to buy me the Mountaintop Custom Kennel of my choice.


----------



## JR

jessicay said:


> ...But my silvers/charcoals are legitimate labs.





jessicay said:


> But this shows everyone what a reputable silver breeder can produce, heck does not have to be a silver breeder.





> "*Color*
> The Labrador Retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color or a combination of colors is a disqualification. A small white spot on the chest is permissible, but not desirable. White hairs from aging or scarring are not to be misinterpreted as brindling. *Black*--Blacks are all black. A black with brindle markings or a black with tan markings is a disqualification. *Yellow*--Yellows may range in color from fox-red to light cream, with variations in shading on the ears, back, and underparts of the dog. *Chocolate*--Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification."
> 
> http://www.akc.org/breeds/labrador_retriever/index.cfm



No silver listed nor recognized by the AKC?  They are registered?

Or are they registered, and referenced as this:



			
				browning84 said:
			
		

> It is commonly referred to as hanging papers.


----------



## JuliaH

Just for the conversation, here are a couple of websites who are also breeding silver and charcoal, etc. labs... Red Rock Ranch is the home of Pheasant Hill and Silver Hill Labradors... 

http://www.redrockranch.net/warriorspage.htm

http://www.redrockranch.net/homepage.htm

Julia


----------



## jessicay

WOW Julia, so what do you have to say about Red Rock Ranch. I bet she has been breeding longer than you, why don't you shoot her off a email and let her educate you on dogs. Cause I am sure she knows way more than you. Cause did I read some where you have only had dogs few three years!!!


----------



## jessicay

browning84 said:


> There needs to be a second part to this deal where you keep referring to me buying a puppy. If you don’t make it to your part of the deal then you get to buy me the Mountaintop Custom Kennel of my choice.



, there does not need to be a second part cause we don't need it! She will get it DONE!!!


----------



## jessicay

zzweims,

Are you still comparing our dogs??? Anyone can take their pup and play fetch with a live bird that their legs are tied together. And get better pics than that. What are you thinking putting some blurry pictures up like that.


----------



## JR

jessicay said:


> zzweims,
> 
> Are you still comparing our dogs??? Anyone can take their pup and play fetch with a live bird that their legs ties together. And get better pics than that. What are you thinking putting some blurry pictures up like that.


I think the more important message ZZWeims was trying to get across was:  


zzweims said:


> While y'all were inside debating the color of your dogs this weekend, the 'wormy' little pup second from right in this photo was taking the blue ribbon in the Open Puppy stake at a field trial.  She was the only Weimaraner in a field of pointers, setters, and brittneys.


----------



## browning84

jessicay said:


> WOW Julia, so what do you have to say about Red Rock Ranch. I bet she has been breeding longer than you, why don't you shoot her off a email and let her educate you on dogs. Cause I am sure she knows way more than you. Cause did I read some where you have only had dogs few three years!!!



Just because someone has been doing something for a long time doesn’t make it right. That’s like saying Jimmy Joe Blow has been dealing drugs for 20 years now and never been caught still doesn’t make it legal, and in the case of this breeder doesn’t make what she is doing right either. Those that breed for color alone are plain and simple unethical breeders, there is not if and or butts about it. Silver is not an accepted color for any registry; AKC, UKC, CKC, or any other. If you have to take a color that is not accepted by any of these registries and register it under another color just so it can be registered then that is also not ethical. Weather breeding is a job or a hobby it should be done to improve a breed. For those thinking of spinning this word, improve means to take what you have (being that which is already accepted by current registries) and make it better and healthier. In the case of the “silver lab” this is not an improvement it is merely and addition; as long as it wasn’t actually breed to wimi to get the color and it actually did occur naturally (which I doubt). There are already plenty of problems in labs now, like EIC and CNM, why add a color issue into the mix. You are misleading people by telling them they are paying for labs which is 100% not true. 

In my opinion I don’t have a problem with the AKC allowing people to register these dogs, but I do have a problem with a full registry. These dogs should be sold with spay/neuter contracts with a limited registration, after they are spayed or neutered then and only then should they get their full registration.


----------



## jessicay

hogdawg said:


> How do you turn a pedigree around?




You all could find some way too.


----------



## zzweims

jessicay said:


> zzweims,
> 
> Are you still comparing our dogs??? Anyone can take their pup and play fetch with a live bird that their legs are tied together. And get better pics than that. What are you thinking putting some blurry pictures up like that.



My apologies.  I'm not very technological.  Perhaps this one is better


----------



## JR

zzweims said:


> My apologies.  I'm not very technological.  Perhaps this one is better


----------



## jessicay

ZZweims

, OK I have a sense of humor now that was funny!!!


----------



## jessicay

I'll get you, your pictures with her with a live bird, if that will make you feel better.


----------



## tuffdawg

Good lord, this thread would be better suited for the thangs with wangs forum.


----------



## jessicay

browning84 said:


> That’s like saying Jimmy Joe Blow has been dealing drugs for 20 years now and never been caught still doesn’t make it legal,


----------



## jessicay

tuffdawg said:


> Good lord, this thread would be better suited for the thangs with wangs forum.



, it is good to laugh though all of this debating!!


----------



## jessicay

HEY guys, we are not going to agree to disagree on this subject are we?


----------



## hogdawg

jessicay said:


> You all could find some way too.



It is so obvious that you are hiding something by refusing to show us the pedigrees on your pups.  Any reputable breeder would have no problem providing this information.


----------



## JR

jessicay said:


> , it is good to laugh though all of this debating!!



Great choice of verbage.  Some can, and DO understand what "debating" means.... Others run and cry 'foul' that they are getting "picked on" or take things personally!


----------



## jessicay

hogdawg said:


> It is so obvious that you are hiding something by refusing to show us the pedigrees on your pups.  Any reputable breeder would have no problem providing this information.




hogdawg, I AM NOT HIDING anything. But I have been given no reason on here to give out that info. Because you call me a unreputable breeder, I don't care what you think.


----------



## jessicay

jessicay said:


> HEY guys, we are not going to agree to disagree on this subject are we?




I keep asking, but never getting an answer.


----------



## GA Christy

You know it is so hard to get house work done with all this arguing!! I feel like I am watching soap operas on the TV with no sounds


----------



## zzweims

jessicay said:


> HEY guys, we are not going to agree to disagree on this subject are we?



Honestly Jessicay, I don't disagree with you.  I would be thrilled for you if you could put some serious field titles on your dogs.  I'd even send you puppy buyers if you did.  IMO, there is no such thing as the wrong color on the right dog.  Heck, silver is a recessive gene that could be erradicated in a single generation, if someone prefered a different color.  Bring your pup to my farm sometime and we'll shoot quail and pheasant over the pond. (sorry, I don't have any pen ducks).  In the meantime, there are several retriever trials and hunt tests coming up.  Get your older dogs out there and compete with the big boys.  Prove 'em wrong.

Here's info and directions to our farm http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms  Don't forget the Margarita mix!


----------



## tuffdawg

GA Christy said:


> You know it is so hard to get house work done with all this arguing!! I feel like I am watching soap operas on the TV with no sounds


----------



## secondseason

JR said:


> Great choice of verbage.  Some can, and DO understand what "debating" means.... Others run and cry 'foul' that they are getting "picked on" or take things personally!





zzweims said:


> Honestly Jessicay, I don't disagree with you.  I would be thrilled for you if you could put some serious field titles on your dogs.  I'd even send you puppy buyers if you did.  IMO, there is no such thing as the wrong color on the right dog.  Heck, silver is a recessive gene that could be erradicated in a single generation, if someone prefered a different color.  Bring your pup to my farm sometime and we'll shoot quail and pheasant over the pond. (sorry, I don't have any pen ducks).  In the meantime, there are several retriever trials and hunt tests coming up.  Get your older dogs out there and compete with the big boys.  Prove 'em wrong.
> 
> Here's info and directions to our farm http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms  Don't forget the Margarita mix!




Now folks this is a truly nice offer!  Someone that will offer their time, energy, and birds is someone that should be appreciated.

I don't have a dog in this fight and really don't want one.  But I will say that I have seen some comments that have really made me sorry to know some of you.  

Debate is simply a subject that one can feel passionate about and argue it's merrits and faults that should never get to the pure unadultrated mud slinging that I have seen here.


----------



## CedarSwampRetrievers

You don't want to post a pedigree, you say your dogs have OFA's done, give us some of their names and we can look them up ourselves. www.offa.org
I can find all of mine and every male I have used that wasn't mine. Since the parents and grandparents were ofa'd we'll be able to see the pedigree there. 

Here's a couple of mine, I can remember them (and their parent's names with the possibility of slight mispelling in parents' names, but still findable in search) without referring to the computer
RC Buckshot of Seven Hickories, MH (GMHR Bay Creek Dan, MH QAA x Bay Creek Ash MacAnn, MH) 
High Tess, JH (FC AFC High Tech CEO x Rana's Li'l Bit of Gold, MH)
Ceader Swamp's Mac Millett (Doolab's Spur of the Moment, MH QAA x Seegars Mill's Maggie Mae, MH)
CBK Katie Bar the Gates (FC AFC High Tech CEO x Bay Creek's Sassy Girl)
Ellie's Camden Rain (Zackary Blondi Adams Big Man, SH x Sir Charles' Ellie Rain)
If they're not already there, in the next few weeks, the EIC, CNM, and CERF results will be listed there as well as they were mailed last week.

And a few males I have bred to that I do not own
Norwood's Ocoee JJ, MH 
Shadow's Sunday Sam, MH QAA (Also was Super Retriever Series dog of the year a couple of years ago)

You can check their titles I have listed at AKC, technically QAA isn't a title, just a qualification, may be able to find that on www.entryexpress.net by placements in qualifing events. You can also go to the Master National Hall of Fame website to verify some of them  

All dogs that have a normal OFA will be listed. Dysplastic dogs are named only with owner consent. CERF also automatically updates with OFA database monthly, so if both are done, both will show.

Alison


----------



## hogdawg

jessicay said:


> hogdawg, I AM NOT HIDING anything. But I have been given no reason on here to give out that info. Because you call me a unreputable breeder, I don't care what you think.



I love being right


----------



## jessicay

CedarSwampRetrievers said:


> You don't want to post a pedigree, you say your dogs have OFA's done, give us some of their names and we can look them up ourselves. www.offa.org
> I can find all of mine and every male I have used that wasn't mine. Since the parents and grandparents were ofa'd we'll be able to see the pedigree there.
> 
> Here's a couple of mine, I can remember them (and their parent's names with the possibility of slight mispelling in parents' names, but still findable in search) without referring to the computer
> RC Buckshot of Seven Hickories, MH (GMHR Bay Creek Dan, MH QAA x Bay Creek Ash MacAnn, MH)
> High Tess, JH (FC AFC High Tech CEO x Rana's Li'l Bit of Gold, MH)
> Ceader Swamp's Mac Millett (Doolab's Spur of the Moment, MH QAA x Seegars Mill's Maggie Mae, MH)
> CBK Katie Bar the Gates (FC AFC High Tech CEO x Bay Creek's Sassy Girl)
> Ellie's Camden Rain (Zackary Blondi Adams Big Man, SH x Sir Charles' Ellie Rain)
> If they're not already there, in the next few weeks, the EIC, CNM, and CERF results will be listed there as well as they were mailed last week.
> 
> And a few males I have bred to that I do not own
> Norwood's Ocoee JJ, MH
> Shadow's Sunday Sam, MH QAA (Also was Super Retriever Series dog of the year a couple of years ago)
> 
> You can check their titles I have listed at AKC, technically QAA isn't a title, just a qualification, may be able to find that on www.entryexpress.net by placements in qualifing events. You can also go to the Master National Hall of Fame website to verify some of them
> 
> All dogs that have a normal OFA will be listed. Dysplastic dogs are named only with owner consent. CERF also automatically updates with OFA database monthly, so if both are done, both will show.
> 
> Alison




How much do you get for a stud fee!!! You do have some nice lines.


----------



## CedarSwampRetrievers

I don't have a male standing right now. Hickory had to be put to sleep yesterday. My younger male has not had clearances done or titled, so he's not available. One is his littermates is EIC affected, so chances are good he's a carrier. Clearances must be done on females as well. We also reserve the right not to breed a female.


----------



## Senior Vato

I can give one reason she's not giving pedigrees...It's very obvious that silver breeders are hated by the standard color breeders.  If she posts her pedigrees, just how long do you think it would be before all you haters picked up the phone, Googled, found where these lines come from and put a stop to her Honeyhole.  It's not easy to find a standard color breeder that will sell their good dogs to silver people but, they are out there..She doesn't want to close any doors...GET IT?


----------



## JR

Senior Vato said:


> If she posts her pedigrees, just how long do you think it would be before all you haters picked up the phone, Googled, found where these lines come from and put a stop to her Honeyhole.  It's not easy to find a standard color breeder that will sell their good dogs to silver people but, they are out there..She doesn't want to close any doors...GET IT?



Interesting.  Not really a good "argument"....  More enligtening than anything....


----------



## zzweims

Senior Vato said:


> I can give one reason she's not giving pedigrees...It's very obvious that silver breeders are hated by the standard color breeders.  If she posts her pedigrees, just how long do you think it would be before all you haters picked up the phone, Googled, found where these lines come from and put a stop to her Honeyhole.  It's not easy to find a standard color breeder that will sell their good dogs to silver people but, they are out there..She doesn't want to close any doors...GET IT?



No Senior Vato,  we don't get it.  There is no such thing as the perfect dog.  Cedar Swap posted her dogs and was even upfront about potential genetic issues.  THAT is a good breeder.

Silver breeders are not hated.  If Jessicay's dogs had the titles, health clearances, hunting ability, and good conformation, I gaurentee you that top standard color lab breeders would be lining up at her door to breed to her stud or buy a pup.  Of all the genetic faults out there, color is the easiest to fix.

Anyone with any breed should be proud to post their dogs' name's and accomplishments, particularly if they are in the business of selling puppies.


----------



## 3.5 YR-OLD BAMBI

Senior vato is right, if jessicay posted her pedigree on here the champion line in there will be contacted and ask why there lines were in the silver lines. Those people had nothing to do with their lines getting crossed in. Im sure the champion dog jessicay is talking about she must have bought and dont want to hear from the people that those champion lines come from.


----------



## 3.5 YR-OLD BAMBI

*weim*

zzweims I bet if you hook a chain to my silver lab it could pull one of your weims all over the place   Then we could have some margarita's with jessicay and tuff.


----------



## 3.5 YR-OLD BAMBI

All kidding a side weims your dogs are some of the nicest i have seen.


----------



## JuliaH

LOL... I learned a long time ago that it is not how long you have been at it, but how well you handle it that is important in breeding.... I am not a Lab person, and have no dog in this hunt, except I thought the comments about zzweims dogs was uncalled for.

She is one of the best working kennels in the country, and she has an exemplary reputation in the bird dog community. 

One of the craziest things in this entire debate, to me, is that I am still wondering why you won't share the pedigree of your pups   Those babies should be worth sharing their heritage if you are as proud of them as you should be   In every inquiry I have had from prospective buyers, I have had to share my website and my pedigrees, so that I can let the buyers know what I have... and if my pups fit their needs   I am proud to do that... at any time I am asked.

Look on my profile and you will see my website... pictures, pedigrees, my personal preferences as to breeding and feeding and other stuff. Nothing to hide. ANY breeder outta be proud enough to want folks to view dogs, pedigrees, pups, etc.    Just my opinion, again, no axe to grind as I am not a Labrador person 

Julia



jessicay said:


> WOW Julia, so what do you have to say about Red Rock Ranch. I bet she has been breeding longer than you, why don't you shoot her off a email and let her educate you on dogs. Cause I am sure she knows way more than you. Cause did I read some where you have only had dogs few three years!!!


----------



## ugabulldog56

hogdawg said:


> It is so obvious that you are hiding something by refusing to show us the pedigrees on your pups.  Any reputable breeder would have no problem providing this information.





I agree.

Why wouldnt you want the free advertisement of your champion silver lines for all your future clients to see????


----------



## jessicay

ugabulldog56 said:


> I agree.
> 
> Why wouldnt you want the free advertisement of your champion silver lines for all your future clients to see????



Well, I do not need the free advertisement. If you are in the silver's you know who I am and you know what I have. So I do not have to post them on here for you all to act like a bunch of hens to pick it apart.


----------



## Senior Vato

zzweims said:


> No Senior Vato,  we don't get it.  There is no such thing as the perfect dog.  Cedar Swap posted her dogs and was even upfront about potential genetic issues.  THAT is a good breeder.
> 
> Silver breeders are not hated.  If Jessicay's dogs had the titles, health clearances, hunting ability, and good conformation, I gaurentee you that top standard color lab breeders would be lining up at her door to breed to her stud or buy a pup.  Of all the genetic faults out there, color is the easiest to fix.
> 
> Anyone with any breed should be proud to post their dogs' name's and accomplishments, particularly if they are in the business of selling puppies.



You are so wrong, I am in the same position as Jessicay,  When we find a Standard Color breeder that will let us in the door, we don't breathe a word of it to anyone but the ones we trust in our own community.  Give us a few years and work on improving what we have then, and only then will you see what we are working with.  Oh, and by the way the earth is round as well....
Also, the people buying these pups do see all of the clearances, pedigrees etc.  The problem is they are sold to pet homes on limited registration and will continue to be sold as that until the time we all reach out goals of putting titles on these fine animals.  You will have a hard time finding out this information from a reputable Silver breeder unless you choose to buy one that you cannot breed yourself.  Certainly you can find information on some silvers but, it will not be of the same quality by any standards that a breeder like Jessicay is producing...


----------



## Senior Vato

zzweims said:


> No Senior Vato,  we don't get it.  There is no such thing as the perfect dog.  Cedar Swap posted her dogs and was even upfront about potential genetic issues.  THAT is a good breeder.
> 
> Silver breeders are not hated.  If Jessicay's dogs had the titles, health clearances, hunting ability, and good conformation, I gaurentee you that top standard color lab breeders would be lining up at her door to breed to her stud or buy a pup.  Of all the genetic faults out there, color is the easiest to fix.
> 
> Anyone with any breed should be proud to post their dogs' name's and accomplishments, particularly if they are in the business of selling puppies.



One more thing, Your guarantee of the top standard color breeders lining up is about as good as your "gaurentee" spelling


----------



## zzweims

3.5 YR-OLD BAMBI said:


> Senior vato is right, if jessicay posted her pedigree on here the champion line in there will be contacted and ask why there lines were in the silver lines. Those people had nothing to do with their lines getting crossed in. Im sure the champion dog jessicay is talking about she must have bought and dont want to hear from the people that those champion lines come from.



To Bambi and others--this is where experience comes in.  When you have top dogs, people want to breed to them.  Down the line, your prized dog will show up in several pedigrees, some of which you may disapprove.  As the original breeder, you have little to no control over what happens just two generations away.  You can be upset about it, or you can smile and hope that your bloodlines have made a positive impact on someone else's breeding program.  I, and most breeders I know, choose the later road.  Fear of what some other breeder thinks is a sign of inexperience and a lack of confidence in one's own line.  Right or wrong, I'm proud of the dogs I breed, and will not hide their pedigrees from anyone.


----------



## Senior Vato

zzweims said:


> To Bambi and others--this is where experience comes in.  When you have top dogs, people want to breed to them.  Down the line, your prized dog will show up in several pedigrees, some of which you may disapprove.  As the original breeder, you have little to no control over what happens just two generations away.  You can be upset about it, or you can smile and hope that your bloodlines have made a positive impact on someone else's breeding program.  I, and most breeders I know, choose the later road.  Fear of what some other breeder thinks is a sign of inexperience and a lack of confidence in one's own line.  Right or wrong, I'm proud of the dogs I breed, and will not hide their pedigrees from anyone.


That's great ZZ.  I completely agree with you.  You only need to understand where we are coming from.  We are dealing with dogs that have lines that have been abused for years.  If you and others could take the time to try and see what we are doing is improve on what others have not had any care in the world other than try to mass produce a bunch of inbred mutts.  Like it or not, the Dilute Chocolate and Dilute Black are here to stay, they are not going anywhere anytime soon.  We are trying to fix the problem, is that so bad?  Haters can hate but, it's not going to stop us from doing what we think is right.  Agree or not, it's the way it is and it's not going to change.  Everyone has their opinion and is entitled to it.  Mine just happens to be, I love the color, love the breed, they are Lab through and through.  It just needs to be understood for the time being we silver breeders who are truly trying to improve must, must fly under the radar for the time being..that doesn't mean we won't kick it around on forums like this but, you absolutely for the time being will not get breeding and or clearance information from us.  We do not want any doors shut on us as they are to hard to open in the first place..thanks


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## JuliaH

Senior, I don't think anyone here is hating the color... it would be so easy to prove your point by taking zzweims up on her invitation. I have been down to her farm on a hunt test last year, and it is a great place to work hunting dogs, no matter what the breed. Or, just to share pedigrees and help us understand the ideas and ideals behind your choices. 

There are those of us who are willing to do that very thing... just because it is good business if for no other reason   People should have confidence in what they spend sometimes a lot of $$ on..  I am learning a lot in my reading of this thread.. To me, it should not remain a question of color, but of our practices and our openness to one another 

Julia


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## ugabulldog56

jessicay said:


> Well, I do not need the free advertisement. If you are in the silver's you know who I am and you know what I have. So I do not have to post them on here for you all to act like a bunch of hens to pick it apart.



Im not trying to act like a hen.....I was thinking in terms of first time buyers that might need a little more confidence(like a legit pedigree) about buying a pup from you.


----------



## CedarSwampRetrievers

AKC doesn't just give out owner information. They don't give out information about a dog prior to you owning it either.  
We talk to the breeders of all the dogs we have bought, Tess's breeder was tickled that she OFA'd Excellent. I shared Millett's CNM carrier status with her breeder (her sire is clear) and gave his wife a hug when she almost cried telling us they had lost her the year before. We also shared with Hickory's breeder when we found out he was EIC affected to our surprise b/c he had never shown an episode. We also had one that had episodes just going for a walk off lead in the woods. He was a littermate to Katie who is a carrier, their mother was Hickory's full sister, Sassy who we also owned. Hickory and Sassy's breeder has a dog from Sassy's first litter with one of their males.

Had we not done DNA testing, we may have bred our young male (who may be a carrier) and Katie and produced more puppies that collapse with exercise/excitement. Having had one that collapsed and because we hunt our guys as do many of our clients, that is not something we want to produce--it can be deadly. It is now preventable without question and the cost of the test is minimal compared to the heartache of  seeing a collapse episode. A very well known sire that is in many field dog pedigrees was a carrier. There have been several show bred CH that have tested carrier and affected.

Three of Millett's puppies from her first litter are bomb dogs, one will be going back over to the Middle East later this year. One is statside in airports. Of the others, one is a MH, the other SH. Statistically speaking had she been bred to another CNM carrier, at least two of the litter of 10 never would have developed normally. Again a small price for me to pay to DNA test ensure somebody doesn't have the heartache of the bundle of joy they took home not able to live a normal life. A well known choc dog was a carrier of CNM as well as several well known black dogs.

Alison


----------



## Senior Vato

JuliaH said:


> Senior, I don't think anyone here is hating the color... it would be so easy to prove your point by taking zzweims up on her invitation. I have been down to her farm on a hunt test last year, and it is a great place to work hunting dogs, no matter what the breed. Or, just to share pedigrees and help us understand the ideas and ideals behind your choices.
> 
> There are those of us who are willing to do that very thing... just because it is good business if for no other reason   People should have confidence in what they spend sometimes a lot of $$ on..  I am learning a lot in my reading of this thread.. To me, it should not remain a question of color, but of our practices and our openness to one another
> 
> Julia


Hey Julia, I agree with you.  As breeders of the Silvers we must take baby steps.  You don't know how nice it would be to take a trip to a top Kennel and just lay it all out there.  Generally it's a matter of trust and it takes a while to build trust as you surely know.  Just last week I spoke to a 30 year veteran Standard color Lab breeder.  I spoke with her told her who I was and what I was doing and asked her what she thought of that.  The phone was silent for a moment and her reply was there is no such color..I kindly agreed only because my dogs are registered as either Chocolate or Black.  It's very hard to find a standard color breeder that will even talk intelligently with you and when we do, we must bite our lip and bow graciously to them in hopes that they will through us a bone...We are doing the right thing with what we have to work with at this time..thanks


----------



## jessicay

ugabulldog56 said:


> Im not trying to act like a hen.....I was thinking in terms of first time buyers that might need a little more confidence(like a legit pedigree) about buying a pup from you.




That puppy would not have been available for first time buyers on full. We only let the puppies go to experienced silver breeders, who know what to do with the lines and what we expect to be done. Senior has one of my pups but he is doing a great job and bring in new lines and coaling out the bad lines.

As a matter of fact most of my puppies are sold to pet home and at a cheaper price on limited. So when a puppy is going to a pet home they most of the time do not care about the pedigree.


----------



## Senior Vato

CedarSwampRetrievers said:


> AKC doesn't just give out owner information. They don't give out information about a dog prior to you owning it either.
> 
> Alison


You are correct Alison about AKC.  But, if I show you a pedigree with a CH sire to my litter, how hard is going to be for you to find out where I bought this dog?  Like I said in an earlier post, give us a couple of years and then we will share with the world..


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## Senior Vato

As a matter of fact most of my puppies are sold to pet home and at a cheaper price on limited. So when a puppy is going to a pet home they most of the time do not care about the pedigree.[/QUOTE]

That's right JessicaY, most of the pet home pups are never registered...But, my little girl I got from you last month she was papered as soon as she got home.  She is something special, although, after seeing your little girl you posted yesterday..I might have mis picked...dangit.  She is awesome, great job..


----------



## ugabulldog56

Senior Vato said:


> You are correct Alison about AKC.  But, if I show you a pedigree with a CH sire to my litter, how hard is going to be for you to find out where I bought this dog?  Like I said in an earlier post, give us a couple of years and then we will share with the world..





Its not hard at all when the CH dogs are listed on Jessicas website.  

Im really not understanding the secrecy about these pedigrees.....if you list several of the sires and grandsires on your site why are you so protective over posting a pedigree.


----------



## jessicay

ugabulldog56 said:


> Its not hard at all when the CH dogs are listed on Jessicas website.
> 
> Im really not understanding the secrecy about these pedigrees.....if you list several of the sires and grandsires on your site why are you so protective over posting a pedigree.



No, sorry those are not even the CH dogs that I am talking about. We do not list our CH dogs on the internet as you already know how easy it is to find me.


----------



## jessicay

zzweims said:


> Honestly Jessicay, I don't disagree with you.  I would be thrilled for you if you could put some serious field titles on your dogs.  I'd even send you puppy buyers if you did.  IMO, there is no such thing as the wrong color on the right dog.  Heck, silver is a recessive gene that could be erradicated in a single generation, if someone prefered a different color.  Bring your pup to my farm sometime and we'll shoot quail and pheasant over the pond. (sorry, I don't have any pen ducks).  In the meantime, there are several retriever trials and hunt tests coming up.  Get your older dogs out there and compete with the big boys.  Prove 'em wrong.
> 
> Here's info and directions to our farm http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms  Don't forget the Margarita mix!



I still do not know how to take this post.


----------



## zzweims

Senior Vato said:


> That's great ZZ.  I completely agree with you.  You only need to understand where we are coming from.  We are dealing with dogs that have lines that have been abused for years.



I understand more than you think.  60 years ago, the American Weimaraner was a noble, intelligent, medium-sized, gray, hunting dog.  Then the pet, puppy mill, and show crowd took over and abused the recessive silver gene and produced and overwhelming population of oversized, poorly coated, idots that didn't hunt.  20 years ago, there was not a weim in this country I would feed, let alone take hunting.  I had to go to Europe and Canada to get my breeding stock.  Later, I found a few, very few, like minded folks in America, and have bought or bred from them.  There are at most a dozen of us in North America who produce, or try to produce, top field Weimaraners that meet the AKC, German, and FCI standards, AND can compete in the field here in America against the other pointing breeds.  We still have a long way to go, and can get our butts kicked soundly on any Sunday, but I and my fellow field breeders, are out there giving it our best.  We win occasionally, lose often, and go hunting in between.  We still get poo-pooed now and then, but we have earned the respect of many because we PROVED what our dogs could do.  Even when we came in last, we earned respect for trying and for being confident, patient, and proud.

Secrecy will get you no where.  If you believe in your dogs, lay it on the table.


----------



## zzweims

jessicay said:


> I still do not know how to take this post.



Take it as an invitation in good spirit.  I am not the enemy and I own a blender


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## ugabulldog56

jessicay said:


> No, sorry those are not even the CH dogs that I am talking about. We do not list our CH dogs on the internet as you already know how easy it is to find me.




Well when you post your website on your profile of course its not that hard to find.  What do you mean you dont list your champion dogs on the internet???  did i misread your page?


----------



## jessicay

ugabulldog56 said:


> Well when you post your website on your profile of course its not that hard to find.  What do you mean you dont list your champion dogs on the internet???  did i misread your page?



Those are some of my nice lines but not my stronger pedigrees.


----------



## Senior Vato

zzweims said:


> I understand more than you think.  60 years ago, the American Weimaraner was a noble, intelligent, medium-sized, gray, hunting dog.  Then the pet, puppy mill, and show crowd took over and abused the recessive silver gene and produced and overwhelming population of oversized, poorly coated, idots that didn't hunt.  20 years ago, there was not a weim in this country I would feed, let alone take hunting.  I had to go to Europe and Canada to get my breeding stock.  Later, I found a few, very few, like minded folks in America, and have bought or bred from them.  There are at most a dozen of us in North America who produce, or try to produce, top field Weimaraners that meet the AKC, German, and FCI standards, AND can compete in the field here in America against the other pointing breeds.  We still have a long way to go, and can get our butts kicked soundly on any Sunday, but I and my fellow field breeders, are out there giving it our best.  We win occasionally, lose often, and go hunting in between.  We still get poo-pooed now and then, but we have earned the respect of many because we PROVED what our dogs could do.  Even when we came in last, we earned respect for trying and for being confident, patient, and proud.
> 
> Secrecy will get you no where.  If you believe in your dogs, lay it on the table.



Dang ZZ I was really enjoying your post til I got to the end.  You are dealing with a completely different breed than we are.  How hard is it to be accepted when you have a standard type dog like the weim's and you are trying to improve it?  Not too..It's pretty easy to be the big dog isn't it?
We are dealing with breeders in the same breed that don't think our color should exist.  I can't go to the hunt trial with my silvers and be one of the good ol boys...We can't show our dogs in the ring because of the color.  We have a hard time getting our factor dogs to place in the ring when biased judges know that we are silver breeders..and believe me it's not because they are substandard.  I don't know why it's so hard for everyone here see.  We have repeated it over and over and over, we are only trying to improve something that some others have messed up in the past...and yes, it is very, very different than your breed.

I do believe in my dogs and it will be on the table when the time is right and the time is right when we say it is right..BTW I to will be going to Germany in 14 weeks to pick up my newest addition to my kennel.  He is a Silver factor Chocolate son of a German and Hungarian Champion.  This sire will blow the socks off any Lab I've seen to date.  Good luck to you with your program.


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## jessicay

zzweims said:


> I understand more than you think.  60 years ago, the American Weimaraner was a noble, intelligent, medium-sized, gray, hunting dog.  Then the pet, puppy mill, and show crowd took over and abused the recessive silver gene and produced and overwhelming population of oversized, poorly coated, idots that didn't hunt.  20 years ago, there was not a weim in this country I would feed, let alone take hunting.  I had to go to Europe and Canada to get my breeding stock.  Later, I found a few, very few, like minded folks in America, and have bought or bred from them.  There are at most a dozen of us in North America who produce, or try to produce, top field Weimaraners that meet the AKC, German, and FCI standards, AND can compete in the field here in America against the other pointing breeds.  We still have a long way to go, and can get our butts kicked soundly on any Sunday, but I and my fellow field breeders, are out there giving it our best.  We win occasionally, lose often, and go hunting in between.  We still get poo-pooed now and then, but we have earned the respect of many because we PROVED what our dogs could do.  Even when we came in last, we earned respect for trying and for being confident, patient, and proud.
> 
> Secrecy will get you no where.  If you believe in your dogs, lay it on the table.



After reading this post I feel like you know what we are going thru. There were and still are sorry silver breeders out there and we are trying to clean up their mess and try to produce quality silvers. We dont breed just for color but if someone wants a silver lab we would like to give them the best that money can buy.


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## waterdogs

Why a limited reg. Akc has that if you breed so many liters a year you have to be state inspection and have all clearance to do so. I have labs, and their pedigree speaks for themself. everyone from generation back are all FC, AFC, NAFC, HRCH. I know Cedar SWamp retrievers would notice alot of these names in my pedigree. If you want to see some of the best lines in the labs, come out and watch a hunt test. One is in Clinton SC. Cherekee foothills hrc, Old South hrc in Madison Ga. on 3-28,29-09, and there will be some AKC events in the Ga area also.


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## 91xjgawes

serious question.what is the problem with brown black and yellow? why the need for a "silver lab". i am just curious. no harm intended. from my understanding a regular old lab can have any of the 3, but it takes a silver gene to produce a silver? before long ticked labs will be accepted. in my honest opinion it seems as though the three main colors would be good enough... why should one want to fix something that is not broke? and the comments abot my dog... i never said he was perfect, or that he was a perfect looking lab... he is registered, but i will never use it for anything.. he is just my buddy, houndy or not... please shed some light and understand i am not trying to affend, it is just hard for me, and obviously others to understand why...


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## JerkBait

"ok ive got my silver lab".......

(picks up registration papers)

"color? hmmm......"

"black? NO."

"yellow? NO."

"chocolate? NO."

......hmmmmm

eeeny meeeny miny mo......


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## JuliaH

Your welcome. The hard part for me is about the secrecy, as others have said. If you want to prove your dogs, just lay it on the table and then train or get them trained, and go out there and do some hunt testing, field work, shows, put those pedigrees out there, then you can dare anyone to not like what you have done. 

Just like what zzweims has had to do. She could have the show weims all day long, but she has chosen to be a working kennel, where her dogs do what they were bred to do. And she will put them up against other breeds all day long, and has much to be proud of. 

So, rather than telling everyone to wait a couple years until she has reached her idea of perfection, she breeds, sells, works her dogs and has gorgeous dogs!  See the difference! Don't hide what you are doing, and the pedigrees behind them... show it off 

Then talk with the standard color breeders about pedigrees, accomplishments, etc. and don't even go there when it comes to color unless asked... your dogs will be respected as highly as you respect them yourselves  

Julia



Senior Vato said:


> Hey Julia, I agree with you. As breeders of the Silvers we must take baby steps. You don't know how nice it would be to take a trip to a top Kennel and just lay it all out there. Generally it's a matter of trust and it takes a while to build trust as you surely know. Just last week I spoke to a 30 year veteran Standard color Lab breeder. I spoke with her told her who I was and what I was doing and asked her what she thought of that. The phone was silent for a moment and her reply was there is no such color..I kindly agreed only because my dogs are registered as either Chocolate or Black. It's very hard to find a standard color breeder that will even talk intelligently with you and when we do, we must bite our lip and bow graciously to them in hopes that they will through us a bone...We are doing the right thing with what we have to work with at this time..thanks


----------



## JuliaH

Gotta go to work in a few but what I most want to get across is that it does not matter what you like... dogs, cats, horses, all of them, pink and purple whatchamacallits.... be proud enough of your creatures to show them off, answer whatever questions come your way. 

If you, or we, are not proud enough of our dogs to readily show pups, breeding dogs, pedigrees, answers to questions whether folks agree or not, certs if we do them, etc. then how can we be proud enough of them to ask a fair price when we do breed???  

If I go car shopping, I usually am full of questions, even if looking at a car/truck that I really, really like!! When I am satisfied, I am ready to buy. If I think the salesman wants to hedge on the answers, I move on 

Someone said earlier in this thread that I have not bred dogs a long time. That's right. BUT, I do know sound breeding practice from my years as a horse breeder. I never produced a lot of babies... but I did produce good ones!!  I bred horses from a small gene pool that did not always win when put up against the "regular" Arabians in the show ring, but I still have friends around the world from those years....   and I learned quickly that I had to be ready with answers!

I am a GSP person, and fairly conservative in my likes and dislikes. I have stayed clear of the blacks.... even though the black and whites have been around a long time... just not accepted by AKC for showing... but not long ago I almost bought one... because I liked the ANIMAL itself. I missed the deal, but that's ok. If I ever see a GSP I like, I probably won't be as concerned with color, even though the liver and white is plenty enough for me, and is my personal preference!   

I hope all this makes sense. If those Labs are everything you guys are willing to fight so hard for, then come out and tell us about them openly, proudly... you might find a better response!

Julia


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## hogdawg

Senior Vato said:


> That's great ZZ.  I completely agree with you.  You only need to understand where we are coming from.  We are dealing with dogs that have lines that have been abused for years.  If you and others could take the time to try and see what we are doing is improve on what others have not had any care in the world other than try to mass produce a bunch of inbred mutts.  Like it or not, the Dilute Chocolate and Dilute Black are here to stay, they are not going anywhere anytime soon.  We are trying to fix the problem, is that so bad?  Haters can hate but, it's not going to stop us from doing what we think is right.  Agree or not, it's the way it is and it's not going to change.  Everyone has their opinion and is entitled to it.  Mine just happens to be, I love the color, love the breed, they are Lab through and through.  It just needs to be understood for the time being we silver breeders who are truly trying to improve must, must fly under the radar for the time being..that doesn't mean we won't kick it around on forums like this but, you absolutely for the time being will not get breeding and or clearance information from us.  We do not want any doors shut on us as they are to hard to open in the first place..thanks



First of all, I can't believe you actually posted this.  If you have to operate like this as a breeder, something's not right.

You say you are trying to improve the breed, but do you realize that you are trying to improve something that should have never been in the first place.  If it was at all right, there would be no need for improvement.  Do you know why the lines were abused?  That's the only way they could keep the silver color!

In some of the earlier pictures of silver labs, especially, do you honestly not see the striking resemblance to weims.  

Just be honest with yourselves.


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## onemilmhz

Senior Vato said:
			
		

> That's great ZZ. I completely agree with you. You only need to understand where we are coming from. We are dealing with dogs that have lines that have been abused for years. If you and others could take the time to try and see what we are doing is improve on what others have not had any care in the world other than try to mass produce a bunch of inbred mutts. Like it or not, the Dilute Chocolate and Dilute Black are here to stay, they are not going anywhere anytime soon. We are trying to fix the problem, is that so bad? Haters can hate but, it's not going to stop us from doing what we think is right. Agree or not, it's the way it is and it's not going to change. Everyone has their opinion and is entitled to it. Mine just happens to be, I love the color, love the breed, they are Lab through and through. *It just needs to be understood for the time being we silver breeders who are truly trying to improve must, must fly under the radar for the time being.. that doesn't mean we won't kick it around on forums like this but, you absolutely for the time being will not get breeding and or clearance information from us.* We do not want any doors shut on us as they are to hard to open in the first place..thanks.


Are you serious??? What does being so secretive accomplish other than verify the notion that you are doing things that shouldn't be done!? If any of you were truly "improving the breed" why in God's name would you be trying to hide it so completely?  And exactly how does "kicking it around on forums like this" help the situation?  Everything you say is contradictory to everything you say.  For crying out loud drop the shovel.


----------



## JR

Senior Vato said:


> When we find a Standard Color breeder that will let us in the door, we don't breathe a word of it to anyone but the ones we trust in our own community.


The secrecy and seemingly overwhelming majority within the Lab community that do not recognize "silver" again beg the question, WHY?  Seems y'all are SOLELY focused on the color, and if a lab, is a lab, is a lab, then it is NOT due to performance, the is HAS to be money!!!???



Senior Vato said:


> ...I kindly agreed only because my dogs are registered as either Chocolate or Black.


Resounding statement here...  So though you will testify to the nth degree about your SILVERS, when the dust settles, they are registered Chocolate or Black...  WOW, very ironic.  

And here I thought, as I have been following this, trying to learn, that maybe you 'silver' breeders were NOT registering your pups yet, until whatever secretive breakthrough...  But alas, you ARE registering them as Chocolate or Black.... TOO FUNNY!


----------



## JR

onemilmhz said:


> Are you serious??? What does being so secretive accomplish other than verify the notion that you are doing things that shouldn't be done!? If any of you were truly "improving the breed" why in God's name would you be trying to hide it so completely?  And exactly how does "kicking it around on forums like this" help the situation?  Everything you say is contradictory to everything you say.  For crying out loud drop the shovel.



OK, you type faster, and your's is better written... But meant what I was trying to say!!!


----------



## jessicay

Big Jeep Wrangler said:


> I dont want to start a war but would like some clarification on the situation. I keep seeing people that have these rare Silver Labs and Fox Red Labs. I know all the hoopla about the AKC only accepting Yellow, Black, and Chocolate/Brown. I have a few questions about these strange colored Labs.
> 
> First is why are they so expensive? If a lab is bred to retrieve and has amazing bloodlines I can see paying 1000 bucks for a pup, but not just the fact that it is silver or red.
> 
> Second is my pup is registered with AKC which means I can trace it back for years and years and see the exact colors that all of his ancestors are. Couldnt one of these silver labs be traced back to see when this silver gene color came along.
> 
> Third is, I was referred to a website that was supposed to be a good source for Silver Labs and had some info on them. I went thru the website looking at their dogs and was amazed that these dogs they were claiming were labs didnt even look like labs. The heads and facial features were way off. When I asked for clarification on the breeds and there beginnings I was given the run around. And my questions were never directly answered.
> 
> 
> Any help on this situation would be appreciated. like I said before I dont want this to get ugly, I just want the facts about them.



Have you got your answer yet, so we can close this thread and be done with this subject. Cause it does not look like any of us are going to back down and agree to disagree!!


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## CedarSwampRetrievers

91, Your dog doesn't look that bad...he doesn't have the hound/weim ears. He's either relaxing/playing, wasn't.  posing, so not a great pic. He also looks like he's youn and in a lanky growth spurt. No he wouldn't have a chance in the show ring, but there's a lot in the show ring I wouldn't have or consider breeding to b/c they look more like small solid rotties than labs. I've also seen field labs I wouldn't want, some with FC's some MH.

Like Waterdogs said, head out to the Cherokee Hills Hunt Test...great group of guys...I met several of them this fall for the first time and it was like we had known each other forever. There's also retriever clubs in the Atlanta Area, www.entryexpress.net is a great place to look up AKC events and some UKC events. Waterdogs can prob post the UKC link faster than I can look it up.


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## Senior Vato

JerkBait said:


> "ok ive got my silver lab".......
> 
> (picks up registration papers)
> 
> "color? hmmm......"
> 
> "black? NO."
> 
> "yellow? NO."
> 
> "chocolate? NO."
> 
> ......hmmmmm
> 
> eeeny meeeny miny mo......


You put way to much time and thought into that one..Great job.  I just have to wonder, before you posted it did the words something like....Hey, Hon come look at what I'm gonna say to them there silver breeders
 Dilute Chocolate, Dilute Black..duh


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## jessicay

Tuff put it a couple of days ago but I agree, I think we should all get together and have a cook out.


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## Senior Vato

91xjgawes said:


> serious question.what is the problem with brown black and yellow? why the need for a "silver lab". i am just curious. no harm intended. from my understanding a regular old lab can have any of the 3, but it takes a silver gene to produce a silver? before long ticked labs will be accepted. in my honest opinion it seems as though the three main colors would be good enough... why should one want to fix something that is not broke? and the comments abot my dog... i never said he was perfect, or that he was a perfect looking lab... he is registered, but i will never use it for anything.. he is just my buddy, houndy or not... please shed some light and understand i am not trying to affend, it is just hard for me, and obviously others to understand why...



91 I respect that.  I honestly do and thank you.  I love a challenge and I do feel the silver lab is broke.  The comments on your dog only came after your comments on mine.  I have tried and tried to shed the light but, everyone here is in attack mode.  I've tried it both ways, last night was polite and understanding mode....what did I get when I woke up this morning.....more flat earth minds..


----------



## tuffdawg

jessicay said:


> Tuff put it a couple of days ago but I agree, I think we should all get together and have a cook out.



 I just think that EVERYONE involved in this thread should produce their dogs, and meet at a cookout.


----------



## jessicay

zzweims said:


> To Bambi and others--this is where experience comes in.  When you have top dogs, people want to breed to them.  Down the line, your prized dog will show up in several pedigrees, some of which you may disapprove.  As the original breeder, you have little to no control over what happens just two generations away.  You can be upset about it, or you can smile and hope that your bloodlines have made a positive impact on someone else's breeding program.  I, and most breeders I know, choose the later road.  Fear of what some other breeder thinks is a sign of inexperience and a lack of confidence in one's own line.  Right or wrong, I'm proud of the dogs I breed, and will not hide their pedigrees from anyone.



ZZ, you know I have always liked the blue weims, what would you think if I got one of your pups and bred it into the blue weims. Would you be happy about it?


----------



## jessicay

Senior Vato said:


> 91 I respect that.  I honestly do and thank you.  I love a challenge and I do feel the silver lab is broke.  The comments on your dog only came after your comments on mine.  I have tried and tried to shed the light but, everyone here is in attack mode.  I've tried it both ways, last night was polite and understanding mode....what did I get when I woke up this morning.....more flat earth minds..



Senior, don't feel bad these guys are always trying to pick a fight just go and read a couple of other threads. These same couple of people are always in debates!!


----------



## jessicay

tuffdawg said:


> I just think that EVERYONE involved in this thread should produce their dogs, and meet at a cookout.



I will be there!!


----------



## JerkBait

Senior Vato said:


> You put way to much time and thought into that one..Great job.  I just have to wonder, before you posted it did the words something like....Hey, Hon come look at what I'm gonna say to them there silver breeders
> Dilute Chocolate, Dilute Black..duh



i did do a great job didnt i. 

the only thing that needs to be "diluted" around here is whatever you "silver" people are drinking. some of your minds are just as messed up as your dogs.....

duh


----------



## 91xjgawes

jessicay said:


> Senior, don't feel bad these guys are always trying to pick a fight just go and read a couple of other threads. These same couple of people are always in debates!!



yeah and all of the debates have been on this same topic

with my last question, im just trying to find justification so maybe i can understand better...no reason to call ME out because you are sour about this whole debacle...


----------



## Senior Vato

JR said:


> The secrecy and seemingly overwhelming majority within the Lab community that do not recognize "silver" again beg the question, WHY?  Seems y'all are SOLELY focused on the color, and if a lab, is a lab, is a lab, then it is NOT due to performance, the is HAS to be money!!!???
> *We have answered this time and time again..do I need to sit down with you with a crayon and draw a picture? what is so hard to understand.  I love the silver....it's broke
> *
> 
> Resounding statement here...  So though you will testify to the nth degree about your SILVERS, when the dust settles, they are registered Chocolate or Black...  WOW, very ironic
> 
> 
> *Yes, absolutely they are black and chocolate...where is the problem.  They happen to have a different shade...again, really not that hard to understand..
> *
> And here I thought, as I have been following this, trying to learn, that maybe you 'silver' breeders were NOT registering your pups yet, until whatever secretive breakthrough...  But alas, you ARE registering them as Chocolate or Black.... TOO FUNNY!



*Duh...I guess you are having a hard time following, maybe we need to bring out the crayon again.  We absolutely are registering our dogs.  We are selling them on Limited registration to pet homes so, hopefully they will not be bred by uneducated silver breeders.
*


----------



## Senior Vato

JerkBait said:


> i did do a great job didnt i.
> 
> the only thing that needs to be "diluted" around here is whatever you "silver" people are drinking. some of your minds are just as messed up as your dogs.....
> 
> duh


Did sweetiepie get the nudge again?


----------



## jessicay

91xjgawes said:


> serious question.what is the problem with brown black and yellow? why the need for a "silver lab". i am just curious. no harm intended. from my understanding a regular old lab can have any of the 3, but it takes a silver gene to produce a silver? before long ticked labs will be accepted. in my honest opinion it seems as though the three main colors would be good enough... why should one want to fix something that is not broke? and the comments abot my dog... i never said he was perfect, or that he was a perfect looking lab... he is registered, but i will never use it for anything.. he is just my buddy, houndy or not... please shed some light and understand i am not trying to affend, it is just hard for me, and obviously others to understand why...



I think it as been answered over and over again. The silver gene is a recessive gene that keeps coming up. Have you not taken the time to read this thread?  

wait a second and I will get the link AGAIN for you.


----------



## JerkBait

Senior Vato said:


> Did sweetiepie get the nudge again?



no but my gorgeous, recognized, real, not made up, actual life, truthful, not fairy land, lab did.


dont be mad i can truthfully and without shame choose a color on registration papers.


----------



## 91xjgawes

jessicay said:


> I think it as been answered over and over again. The silver gene is a recessive gene that keeps coming up. Have you not taken the time to read this thread?
> 
> wait a second and I will get the link AGAIN for you.



shes gonna go far...


----------



## jessicay

91xjgawes said:


> shes gonna go far...



Hey that is not funny, I have other things to do than sit on this computer and debate with you!!

But here is your link....
http://pub12.bravenet.com/forum/976632990/fetch/778274/14

so we don't get this off track agian the point to this link is, if the silve gene is showing up in the high bred show lines than what does that mean??


----------



## jessicay

JerkBait said:


> no but my gorgeous, recognized, real, not made up, actual life, truthful, not fairy land, lab did.
> 
> 
> dont be mad i can truthfully and without shame choose a color on registration papers.



I can too!!


----------



## jessicay

What 91 are you having a hard time reading it, do I need to explain it a little better for you.

Or you have nothing to say back about it.


----------



## JerkBait

jessicay said:


> I can too!!



if silver is not an option, and your claim to fame is silver, then NO you cant.


----------



## 91xjgawes

jessicay said:


> What 91 are you having a hard time reading it, do I need to explain it a little better for you.
> 
> Or you have nothing to say back about it.



no... i really dont have anything to say about it, re-read my last post, and try to remember it...you just said in YOUR previous post you dont have time to sit online and debate this, and then you post the above statement. you are almost as mixed up as your dogs...


----------



## jessicay

91xjgawes said:


> no... i really dont have anything to say about it, re-read my last post, and try to remember it...you just said in YOUR previous post you dont have time to sit online and debate this, and then you post the above statement. you are almost as mixed up as your dogs...




That is the answer I was expecting from you. When it shows up in the field lines and the shows lines there is NOTHING to say.


----------



## 91xjgawes

jessicay said:


> That is the answer I was expecting from you. When it shows up in the field lines and the shows lines there is NOTHING to say.



at least i said i have nothing to say i read it and will admit some of it makes sense... answer this

what is wrong with the 3 old age colors?? why the need to want and breed for silvers? i seriously want to know, and dont find your way around it again...


----------



## onemilmhz

91xjgawes said:


> what is wrong with the 3 old age colors?? *why the need to want and breed for silvers?* i seriously want to know, and dont find your way around it again...


Someone already said it here but I will repeat... MONEY.  Period.


----------



## jessicay

91xjgawes said:


> at least i said i have nothing to say i read it and will admit some of it makes sense... answer this
> 
> what is wrong with the 3 old age colors?? why the need to want and breed for silvers? i seriously want to know, and dont find your way around it again...




There is nothing wrong with the "3 old age colors" I have them all. I love all of the colors.  I do not say that I am only a silver breeder I have a every color a person could want.

Like it not there are puppy buyers who want something different and they do not want your same old lab. So they come to us and want something different. Different is not bad it is just different. 

Get it!!


So if their is a need for a silver lab, why shouldn't I as a silver breeders try to make them as good quailty as I can. So that people like you can quit calling them name or what ever you want to call them.


----------



## hogdawg

well jessicay, i finally looked at your website and i noticed something interesting... don't worry, you'll love it.

quote from jessicay's website:
"We are so excited about being able to buy such a great dog like Cash. Cash comes from great blood lines and has produced some awesome puppies. Cash's dad is Silvertone Chocolate Mickey and his mom is Silverstone Chocolate Show-Off.  Cash also has culo in his lines.We bought Cash from Tammy in Montana at Ringneck English and Silver Labradors."

I was just curious if the Culo dogs in the pedigree on page 8 of this link are the same Culo dogs that are in Cash's great bloodline.http://trinitylabstexas.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/are-all-colors-created-equally.pdf


----------



## jessicay

onemilmhz said:


> Someone already said it here but I will repeat... MONEY.  Period.



Have you looked into what a good quality silver costs?? I have spent more money on dogs and dog stuff this year than I care to ever share with you all. My out take was WAY more than my intake. So please stop spinning that answer around.


----------



## jessicay

hogdawg said:


> well jessicay, i finally looked at your website and i noticed something interesting... don't worry, you'll love it.
> 
> quote from jessicay's website:
> "We are so excited about being able to buy such a great dog like Cash. Cash comes from great blood lines and has produced some awesome puppies. Cash's dad is Silvertone Chocolate Mickey and his mom is Silverstone Chocolate Show-Off.  Cash also has culo in his lines.We bought Cash from Tammy in Montana at Ringneck English and Silver Labradors."
> 
> I was just curious if the Culo dogs in the pedigree on page 8 of this link are the same Culo dogs that are in Cash's great bloodline.http://trinitylabstexas.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/are-all-colors-created-equally.pdf



You see hogdawg it is people like you why we don't post the pedigree. Even though Culo is way in the back of his pedigree that is all you see. Like it or not but culo is just like
Dicken Dall Arnold is in the show world and lean mac is in the hunting world. He is on every pedigree. Are you saying that Dicken Dall Arnold and Lean Mac did nothing for the show and hunting labs. They are FOUNDATION dogs.

You know why am I even wasting my time with you, do you even own a full blood dog, or is everything you own mixed?


----------



## JR

Senior Vato said:


> *Duh...I guess you are having a hard time following, maybe we need to bring out the crayon again.  We absolutely are registering our dogs.  We are selling them on Limited registration to pet homes so, hopefully they will not be bred by uneducated silver breeders.
> *



Right.  For more money.  I got that now.

And something about the breed being "broke".  When did the AKC STOP recognizing the "silver"?  Since it was "broke"?  Oh, wait, has the AKC EVER recognized "silver"?  Assuming no, strictly based on replies in this thread.... So....  Then you have a color that is NOT recognized by it's color, yet somehow it's "broke"?  And once you "fix" it, the color will then miraculously (sp?) be recognized by the AKC????   

Is that your ultimate goal here?  To "fix" the color so that it will be recognized by the AKC?  You and Jessicay are trying to be pioneers in this crusade?  

I guess the biggest problem I have with this, by your own admission, is that the lab community (venture to say MAJORITY) have a LOT of disdain for "silver" breeders....  Can you speculate as to why that is?  Is it because you may have to do things not so much on the 'up and up', just to bring quality pedigrees into your kennel (again I refer back to what you said about not letting the pedigree owner know what their linage is being used for)... 

From an unbiased opinion, and really a VERY basic understanding of all of this... The more secretive you all are, and based on the sheer words you typed, this seems to be VERY taboo.  And what type of responses would you THINK you'd get when defending such a seemingly taboo topic?


----------



## onemilmhz

jessicay said:


> You know why am I even wasting my time with you, *do you even own a full blood dog, or is everything you own mixed*?


Now see, why even go there?  What difference does it make.  For the record, I happen to know that several of his dogs are RESCUES and would probably be dead if it weren't for him and he certainly isn't breeding them.  See, hogdawg is actually concearned about the animal and not its potential for profit.  So, let's try to stay on topic here, which is _YOUR_ mixed dogs!


----------



## tuffdawg

....oh lawd.......


----------



## jessicay

onemilmhz said:


> Now see, why even go there?  What difference does it make.  For the record, I happen to know that several of his dogs are RESCUES and would probably be dead if it weren't for him and he certainly isn't breeding them.  See, hogdawg is actually concearned about the animal and not its potential for profit.  So, let's try to stay on topic here, which is _YOUR_ mixed dogs!



call them what you want, but if AKC is still regs my dogs than AKC must feel they are full blooded.


----------



## 91xjgawes

hogdawg said:


> well jessicay, i finally looked at your website and i noticed something interesting... don't worry, you'll love it.
> 
> quote from jessicay's website:
> "We are so excited about being able to buy such a great dog like Cash. Cash comes from great blood lines and has produced some awesome puppies. Cash's dad is Silvertone Chocolate Mickey and his mom is Silverstone Chocolate Show-Off.  Cash also has culo in his lines.We bought Cash from Tammy in Montana at Ringneck English and Silver Labradors."
> 
> I was just curious if the Culo dogs in the pedigree on page 8 of this link are the same Culo dogs that are in Cash's great bloodline.http://trinitylabstexas.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/are-all-colors-created-equally.pdf



great link... and wow on the in-breeding....


----------



## jessicay

JR said:


> Right.  For more money.  I got that now.
> 
> And something about the breed being "broke".  When did the AKC STOP recognizing the "silver"?  Since it was "broke"?  Oh, wait, has the AKC EVER recognized "silver"?  Assuming no, strictly based on replies in this thread.... So....  Then you have a color that is NOT recognized by it's color, yet somehow it's "broke"?  And once you "fix" it, the color will then miraculously (sp?) be recognized by the AKC????
> 
> Is that your ultimate goal here?  To "fix" the color so that it will be recognized by the AKC?  You and Jessicay are trying to be pioneers in this crusade?
> 
> I guess the biggest problem I have with this, by your own admission, is that the lab community (venture to say MAJORITY) have a LOT of disdain for "silver" breeders....  Can you speculate as to why that is?  Is it because you may have to do things not so much on the 'up and up', just to bring quality pedigrees into your kennel (again I refer back to what you said about not letting the pedigree owner know what their linage is being used for)...
> 
> From an unbiased opinion, and really a VERY basic understanding of all of this... The more secretive you all are, and based on the sheer words you typed, this seems to be VERY taboo.  And what type of responses would you THINK you'd get when defending such a seemingly taboo topic?


----------



## jessicay

tuffdawg said:


> ....oh lawd.......



I am just about to give up, I think this is pointless!!!


----------



## jessicay

91xjgawes said:


> great link... and wow on the in-breeding....



WOW what, go look at the foundation dogs how do you think labs came about REALLY? I am asking if you own a lab you should know this.


----------



## jessicay

91xjgawes said:


> great link... and wow on the in-breeding....



I also find it funny that when something goes wrong (or what you think is wrong) it is in-breeding. BUT if everything goes right it is call line breeding.


----------



## secondseason

jessicay said:


> call them what you want, but if AKC is still regs my dogs than AKC must feel they are full blooded.




Now see that is where you are wrong the AKC is only as good as the information that they are provided:

AKC Registration Papers and Pedigrees
What They Mean -- And Don't Mean
At some point, if you're talking to an unknowledgeable breeder or a proud but unknowledgeable owner, you might hear something like this: 

"My Labrador Retriever puppy has AKC papers and a pedigree!!" 
They expect you to respond with an awed whistle. Here's a better response: 

"Oh, yay." 


"But I thought AKC registration papers meant good quality!" 


Nope. The truth is... 

The AKC will register any puppy whose parents are registered.

The AKC registered those parents because their parents were registered.

The AKC registered their parents because...

You get the idea. 

Registration is nothing but a mechanical process, a chain of numbers.


You send the AKC money.

If the owners of your puppy's parents and grandparents were all good doobies who kept the chain intact by sending in their own money, the AKC will insert your puppy's name into the database, too.

They'll send you a piece of paper with a number on it.

Voila...he's registered. 

Dr. Herm David, Ph.D. says: "The AKC has an infinite supply of numbers. It's a good business to be in." 



"But what about a pedigree? Doesn't that mean something?" 


Send more money. The AKC will access their database again and it will spit out the names of your puppy's parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, as many generations as you're willing to pay for.

Voila...his pedigree.

That's all a pedigree is -- a list of names.


Registration papers and pedigrees don't tell you a single thing about a dog other than its place in the chain of names.

To get registration papers or a pedigree, a Labrador Retriever doesn't have to meet any qualifications of health, temperament, behavior, or sound structure.

None whatsoever. Your Labrador Retriever can be purple, sickly, aggressive, obese, ears pointing every which way -- and the AKC will give them the same kind of registration number they give to the Best of Breed champions at the Westminster Kennel Club show. The exact same kind of registration number.



"Good grief! And here I thought AKC registered meant good!" 


Don't be fooled. Registration papers don't suggest quality in a Labrador Retriever any more than registration papers suggest quality in a CAR.


Does buying a "registered" car mean it won't be a clunker? Of course not! 


In fact, in CARS, registration papers at least mean that a car has passed a smog check or a mechanical safety check (in most states, anyway). 

The AKC registers DOGS
with no health or safety checks at all.
Hopefully you will never again
make the mistake of thinking that the
existence of AKC papers or a pedigree
has anything whatsoever to do
with a dog's quality. 


"But papers at least guarantee that a dog is purebred, right?" 


I'm beginning to feel like the bearer of bad news here!

Being purebred has nothing to do with registration papers.

Being purebred simply means that a puppy and all of his ancestors going back many generations have the same set of fixed genes.

Fixed genes can be counted on to reproduce traits such as large size, short coat, black color, etc. Having fixed genes is what makes a dog purebred. The presence or absence of registration papers has no effect whatsoever on genes.



In fact, if a dog DOESN'T have those fixed genes, he isn't purebred -- even he HAS registration papers! 

What???

It's true. A Labrador Retriever puppy can have registration papers that are false. Most canine registries such as the AKC operate on the honor system. They simply take the breeder's word for it that "King" and "Queen" were really the parents of "Solomon."

But scams happen all the time. Let's say someone has a female Labrador Retriever and a male Labrador Retriever who are purebred and have registration papers. Unfortunately, the female gets loose and is accidentally bred by the mixed breed who lives down the street. When the litter arrives, a dishonest person could fill out the litter registration paperwork -- claiming that his Labrador Retriever was the father. The AKC will dutifully send him a bunch of individual registration papers for each puppy, which he will happily pass along to the new owners. And no one will be the wiser until the puppies grow up and start to look suspiciously non-Labradorish!


Fortunately, the AKC does have a new DNA testing program where participating breeders submit DNA samples of parents and puppies, which conclusively proves parentage. If you want to be sure of who your puppy's parents really are, look for breeders who participate in this program. However, this technology has limits. Since it's new, PAST dogs in your puppy's pedigree can't be tested. 

Always remember that GENES make a dog purebred. The presence or absence of registration papers doesn't change the genes inside a dog. He can be purebred without having papers -- and sadly, he can have papers without really being purebred. 



"So are papers and pedigrees worth anything at all?" 


In the hands of responsible, knowledgeable breeders, oh, yes.

It is extremely important for breeders to check pedigrees to be sure they're not breeding together closely-related dogs, which can lead to serious health problems in the puppies.

Responsible breeders also use pedigrees to track down and evaluate the temperament, health, and physical build of as many ancestors as possible. This information is crucial in deciding how to match up breeding partners.



"Should I buy a purebred puppy without a pedigree?" 


I sure wouldn't. How else will you find out whether a prospective puppy's parents and grandparents were too closely related? If you can't see a 4- or 5-generation pedigree, you'll never know whether the same name appears on both sides of the pedigree, which would mean the puppy is inbred.


Anyone who breeds a litter of Labrador Retriever puppies without examining the pedigree for inbreeding is ignorant and irresponsible. Why reward such a person with money AND take on the risk of an inbred puppy who is likely to develop health problems? 

You have as much right to a well-bred, genetically healthy puppy as anyone else. Rewarding an ignorant breeder with money only encourages him to keep doing the same thing. 




So you want papers and a pedigree
with a purebred Labrador Retriever puppy --
not because their PRESENCE
means you're getting a high-quality puppy,
but because their ABSENCE
automatically means that
the breeder was clueless
AND that you're taking a big risk
of getting an unhealthy puppy.


----------



## 91xjgawes

jessicay said:


> WOW what, go look at the foundation dogs how do you think labs came about REALLY? I am asking if you own a lab you should know this.



why should I know this, yeah i have a lab, and like i said before he is registered, but i could care less. i am curious as to why i should know that just because i own a lab are you serious? sometimes you should think twice before speaking...IMHO...


----------



## jessicay

91xjgawes said:


> why should I know this, yeah i have a lab, and like i said before he is registered, but i could care less. i am curious as to why i should know that just because i own a lab are you serious? sometimes you should think twice before speaking...IMHO...



I am having to educate you on silver labs go do your on homework on standard colors.


----------



## 91xjgawes

jessicay said:


> I am having to educate you on silver labs go do your on homework on standard colors.



i love learning new things and this thread has taught me a lot...
1. that silver labs are not naturally occuring.
2. the only reason one would want to breed them is money.
2. talking to you is like talking to a brick wall...

and i plan on doing my home work as i have a lot to learn...as do you even though you may not admit it...


----------



## GA Christy

*jessicaY*

 this lets you know I am still here


----------



## tuffdawg

Has this thread beat any other thread as far as the post counts in this particular forum?


----------



## browning84

Lets call these dogs what they have been bred as, “Mutts”, you are calling them chocolates for the time being until either the AKC allows silver as a color option, which I hope never happens, or the AKC banes them from being registered as a Labrador Retriever and requires you to register them as Weimeradors. You are ruining the integrity of the breed by call these mutts “silver labs” as to make a reference that they are even that. This topic is plain and simple they are not labs and should not be registered as such.


----------



## JerkBait

browning84 said:


> You are ruining the integrity of the breed by call these mutts “silver labs” as to make a reference that they are even that. This topic is plain and simple they are not labs and should not be registered as such.



thats how i feel. 

dont put those dogs in the same category as my labs. 

thanks.


----------



## JR

browning84 said:


> Lets call these dogs what they have been bred as, “Mutts”, you are calling them chocolates for the time being until either the AKC allows silver as a color option, which I hope never happens, or the AKC banes them from being registered as a Labrador Retriever and requires you to register them as Weimeradors. You are ruining the integrity of the breed by call these mutts “silver labs” as to make a reference that they are even that. This topic is plain and simple they are not labs and should not be registered as such.



Seems legitimate there.


----------



## 91xjgawes

browning84 said:


> Lets call these dogs what they have been bred as, “Mutts”, you are calling them chocolates for the time being until either the AKC allows silver as a color option, which I hope never happens, or the AKC banes them from being registered as a Labrador Retriever and requires you to register them as Weimeradors. You are ruining the integrity of the breed by call these mutts “silver labs” as to make a reference that they are even that. This topic is plain and simple they are not labs and should not be registered as such.



i may need to "do my homework", and i may not be the most knowledgeable dog person, but this is exactly how i feel...


----------



## JerkBait

all in favor? 

all hearts and minds clear? 

has the jury reached a verdict?


well i believe so.


----------



## tuffdawg

JerkBait said:


> all in favor?
> 
> all hearts and minds clear?
> 
> has the jury reached a verdict?
> 
> 
> well i believe so.



I just spit red bull all over the screen................


----------



## onemilmhz

JerkBait said:


> all in favor?
> 
> all hearts and minds clear?
> 
> has the jury reached a verdict?
> 
> 
> well i believe so.



Quick, someone shut it down before jessicay does some more padding to her post count! 
I mean, come on, four different posts to answer one question?


----------



## jessicay

onemilmhz said:


> Quick, someone shut it down before jessicay does some more padding to her post count!
> I mean, come on, four different posts to answer one question?




, I was on my way!!!


----------



## ugabulldog56

browning84 said:


> Lets call these dogs what they have been bred as, “Mutts”, you are calling them chocolates for the time being until either the AKC allows silver as a color option, which I hope never happens, or the AKC banes them from being registered as a Labrador Retriever and requires you to register them as Weimeradors. You are ruining the integrity of the breed by call these mutts “silver labs” as to make a reference that they are even that. This topic is plain and simple they are not labs and should not be registered as such.




Same here.  Calling these "mutts" a labrador is beyond pathetic.


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## JD

I have a German short hair crossed with a Chocolate Lab she is a rescue... I am going to start breeding her and Sell them as "German Chocolates." I should be able to get big bucks for that right... It's going to be the next big "fashion" dog out there... I have done contacted the AKC and told them I have papers on both the sire and dam and they said that's good just send us money and we will send them out as soon as the first litter is born. They don't ever really check.  I was the first to get a Yorkie and Daschund aka "The Dorkie" AKC certified.Now everyone lining up to get one of my "German Chocolates" I can't be showing you all my tricks...er...ummmmmm.... I mean pedigrees but the dogs are "worth" every penny "I" say they are so don't ever ask. Now, I know what your thinking how are you "improving" the breed... well just imagine a dog that can point like a GSP and swim like a Lab. I am taking pre litter orders now so go ahead and get on the list... They are only $10,000 each and papers will be sent within 2 years of purchase for an extra $1,000.00. Hurry... Hurry.... Hurry... jump on the band wagon before the train leaves the station....


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## JerkBait

i dont think there are any "trains" in some of these peoples "station".....


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## Senior Vato

JerkBait said:


> all in favor?
> 
> all hearts and minds clear?
> 
> has the jury reached a verdict?
> 
> 
> well i believe so.




I thought a jury was supposed to be made up of Peers


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## jessicay

What are ya'll doing I have to get stuff done around here and you all go and get off topic.

IT'S THAT WHAT MOD'S ARE FOR???


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## ugabulldog56

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/silverlabs.html


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## Michael Lee

Please keep this thread on topic.  Thanks


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## JerkBait

*(Nothin against the mods)*



jessicay said:


> No he is just doing his job.



ok lets see here.....

you dont like these threads and want them to end.

he is doing his job and directing us to stay on topic. the topic of silver labweims. the topic you dont wish to discuss with us.

now you are backing him.


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## secondseason

A lot of editing has had to be done in this thread, for that reason it has been closed.

If you find a post missing it is with good reason.

If you have a problem with me or any other mod take it to PM.  

There are a few people....yes you....who need to review the rules.


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