# Pastors who have a drink



## valkrod (Dec 10, 2019)

Thoughts on pastors and associate pastors who drink wine or alcohol routinly and feel it is fine.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 10, 2019)

Jesus did. So what's the problem, except that Jesus wasn't a Baptist?


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## Hooked On Quack (Dec 10, 2019)

Sorry, but I don't trust anybody that doesn't drink.


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## freedomlives (Dec 10, 2019)

Being Catholic, I don't see the problem. Obviously, that's if its a drink with a meal, or social drinking without excess. The same sort of standard all of us Christians should hold to, to be moderate in food and drink.
My mom did tell me that my grandfather, a Baptist, didn't drink for the year or two he was a deacon (apparently a rotating position in the Baptist churches?).
Pastors have a leadership and preaching position, as well for Catholics and Orthodox a sacramental role, but otherwise there isn't supposed to be one standard of moral living for the clergy and another for the laity. More people have their eyes on the pastor, but that doesn't give the rest of us an excuse to slack off...


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## baddave (Dec 10, 2019)




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## BeerThirty (Dec 10, 2019)

You should have seen the  looks on everyone's face and the ensuing awkward silence at my house last year when we hosted the church Christmas party and I busted out the alcohol. You would have thought I was committing a mortal sin. No one said anything to me, but I suspect that perhaps some were uncomfortable because there were children present as well. I tell you what though... by the end of the night, that punch bowl was empty and those southern Baptist gals were having themselves a good time.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 10, 2019)

BeerThirty said:


> You should have seen the  looks on everyone's face and the ensuing awkward silence at my house last year when we hosted the church Christmas party and I busted out the alcohol. You would have thought I was committing a mortal sin. No one said anything to me, but I suspect that perhaps some were uncomfortable because there were children present as well. I tell you what though... by the end of the night, that punch bowl was empty and those southern Baptist gals were having themselves a good time.


Jesus didn't turn the water into 7up at that party.....


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## Big7 (Dec 10, 2019)

valkrod said:


> Thoughts on pastors and associate pastors who drink wine or alcohol routinly and feel it is fine.



Why not. Like everyone else. Moderation.
I'm not talking about getting trashed or being a "drunk".

I don't see anything wrong with it.


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## BeerThirty (Dec 10, 2019)

Based on my Christian beliefs, I see nothing wrong with a pastor having a drink. As long as it's in moderation, I don't care. I tend to gravitate to Christians who are real, not the fake, holier than thou. And that's why I've only picked churches with real, "average Joe" pastors who enjoy a cold one every now and then.


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## Big7 (Dec 10, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Jesus didn't turn the water into 7up at that party.....



EXACTLY !


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## Kev (Dec 10, 2019)

I had fellow church members that wouldn’t come to my wedding and some that came and said rude things because I had some beer and wine at my wedding. I don’t see how drinking is the ultimate sin. To me, pretending you are better than others and holding yourself on a pedestal is a sin but That’s not for me to judge.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 10, 2019)

Kev said:


> I had fellow church members that wouldn’t come to my wedding and some that came and said rude things because I had some beer and wine at my wedding. I don’t see how drinking is the ultimate sin. To me, pretending you are better than others and holding yourself on a pedestal is a sin but That’s not for me to judge.


Or holding yourself to be holier than Jesus, or claiming that the bible doesn't say what it does about drinking.


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## Ruger#3 (Dec 10, 2019)

We commonly hold socials or dinners before bible study on a week night. Our Pastor often has a glass of wine along with us at dinner before we breakup into study groups.


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## baddave (Dec 10, 2019)

BeerThirty said:


> You should have seen the  looks on everyone's face and the ensuing awkward silence at my house last year when we hosted the church Christmas party and I busted out the alcohol. You would have thought I was committing a mortal sin. No one said anything to me, but I suspect that perhaps some were uncomfortable because there were children present as well. I tell you what though... by the end of the night, that punch bowl was empty and those southern Baptist gals were having themselves a good time.


i can get a visual on that


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Dec 10, 2019)

What does the Bible say?

Prohibition of alcohol is a man made rule.

Part of Christian liberty is the freedom to reject such prohibitions on food and drink.


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## Core Lokt (Dec 11, 2019)

binge drinking alcohol is as much of a sin  as gossiping about someone. Everyone sins one way or another. One of these is not worse than the other, they are equal.


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## mpwarrak (Dec 12, 2019)

Ok, since everyone is on the same side, let me be the one to stick out my neck.    The Bible says "Look not upon the wine when it is red..." Proverbs 23.

And it continues to describe a certain kind of wine, one that has turned (fermented).  Then it gives a list of reasons to avoid it at all costs.

Now with that in mind, what about wine that is not "red"?

Well, maybe "wine" in the Bible just means "fruit of the vine" or "grape juice", meaning there is a difference between old wine, new wine, wine that is "red" or "gives its color" and wine that isn't.

It's only in our current English language that we think "wine" means fermented.
In Bible times they didn't have refrigeration.  So "new wine" was probably fresh grape juice, and "old wine" was probably fermented to some degree.  

Jesus turned the water into "new wine", remember?  I don't believe Jesus was running around drunk, or He would have been going against Proverbs...

Yes, I don't drink and neither does my pastor.  With the big warning in Proverbs, my biggest question would be "Why?"  
Why do you drink?  If it's for health reasons drink grape juice.  Or maybe it's because you want to loosen up and let your eye "behold strange women"?  

Ok, I'm ready for the explosions...


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## Mexican Squealer (Dec 12, 2019)

Been a pretty good while since I beholded any strange wemens but I do enjoy a good buzz...


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## Ruger#3 (Dec 12, 2019)

From a small glass of wine to womanizing in one breath. Judgmental much? Maybe discuss that with your pastor.


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## 4HAND (Dec 12, 2019)

I don't think he was being judgmental.


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## Ruger#3 (Dec 12, 2019)

4HAND said:


> I don't think he was being judgmental.



Most respectfully, I see it differently.

“Or maybe it's because you want to loosen up and let your eye "behold strange women"?”


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## freedomlives (Dec 12, 2019)

Well, grape juice quickly turns into new wine-- the bubbly, fermenting stage, which is probably easier for a lot of people to get drunk on, because its still sweet, fizzy, but with alcohol.

Looking at the two verses in Proverbs preceding the one you quote:
"Proverbs 23:29
Who has woe? Whose father has woe? Who has quarrels? Who falls into pits? Who has wounds without cause? Who has watery eyes? 
Proverbs 23:30
Is it not those who linger over wine, and who strive to be drinking from their cups? "
I think the warning is against drunkenness and getting into a lifestyle oriented toward satiating every bodily desire before all else.

Perhaps, on this subject, it's good to remember what St. Paul wrote (that's read in our church at the start of lent every year): 
1 Corinthians 6:12
"All things are lawful for me; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful for me; but I will not be brought under the power of any. "


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 16, 2019)

valkrod said:


> Thoughts on pastors and associate pastors who drink wine or alcohol routinly and feel it is fine.



You mean thoughts,.... other than destroying their witness for Christ?


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 16, 2019)

mpwarrak said:


> Ok, since everyone is on the same side, let me be the one to stick out my neck.    The Bible says "Look not upon the wine when it is red..." Proverbs 23.
> 
> And it continues to describe a certain kind of wine, one that has turned (fermented).  Then it gives a list of reasons to avoid it at all costs.
> 
> ...


No explosion, only to say that is a big load of crap that Baptists came up with to justify their being at odds with the Bible. Wine is wine. Grape juice is grape juice. Why all the mentions in the Bible about people being drunk on this "grape juice, " and cautions to not be a drunkard or drink to excess? Wine back then and much earlier was fermented just like it is now. Jesus turned the water into wine because people liked to drink at parties back then just like they do now. And there were no Baptists back then to tell them it was sinful. Everybody drank wine. Drinking doesn't = being drunk or a drunkard unless you have no self-restraint.  It's kind of funny that the Hebrew law went into great detail about things you shouldn't consume, but wine wasn't mentioned in there. Pork was. And shrimp.

As far as I know, there are only three religious groups on earth that think drinking alcohol is a sin. Baptists, Mormons, and Muslims.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 16, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You mean thoughts,.... other than destroying their witness for Christ?


You mean the same Christ who drank wine, but some feel they know better than?


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Dec 16, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You mean thoughts,.... other than destroying their witness for Christ?



So let me get this straight - doing something that Jesus did destroys their witness for Christ?


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## blood on the ground (Dec 16, 2019)

?


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 16, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> You mean the same Christ who drank wine, but some feel they know better than?



If a pastor, any pastor was to pop open a beer in the pulpit, even drinkers would consider him unfit.  So what's the difference.... geographic location?  It destroys your witness, anyone's.  If drinking is more important than your integrity as a witness, that's an issue.  You can argue it till the cows come home, but nowhere in the Bible does it even imply Christ drank alcoholic beverages. Quiet the opposite, it was repeatedly warned against throughout the NT except for small amounts for medicinal purposes.  If you need to tell yourself different, that's fine.  It's just not the truth.


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## Ruger#3 (Dec 16, 2019)

Just to add a personal touch to our conversation my grand father was a primitive baptist deacon. The no alcohol stance was distributed along with fire and brim stone at church regularly. 60 plus years later I can still remember him amongst the church leadership “sampling” the wine cooking off in the urns on the back porch.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 16, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> So let me get this straight - doing something that Jesus did destroys their witness for Christ?



Yeah, errrrrr, that's not straight.


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## freedomlives (Dec 16, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> If a pastor, any pastor was to pop open a beer in the pulpit, even drinkers would consider him unfit.  So what's the difference.... geographic location?  It destroys your witness, anyone's.  If drinking is more important than your integrity as a witness, that's an issue.  You can argue it till the cows come home, but nowhere in the Bible does it even imply Christ drank alcoholic beverages. Quiet the opposite, it was repeatedly warned against throughout the NT except for small amounts for medicinal purposes.  If you need to tell yourself different, that's fine.  It's just not the truth.



If the pastor were drinking a coke or eating a hotdog while preaching from the pulpit, I'd consider to be unfitting. Disrespectful to the people who are listening to you as well.

The Bible doesn't record every action of the Lord. Given that Jesus is truly God and Man, he certainly must of had to go use whatever the equivalent of a toilet was back then, but this is nowhere recorded or implied in the New Testament. 

On the other hand, if there's to be a standard for preachers to be held up to, that they don't do things which Jesus didn't do, I'm afraid that only the Roman Catholic priests, and those minority of unmarried priests in the other Catholic and Orthodox Churches are having integrity in their witness. Not only is there no mention of Jesus marrying or having sex in the Bible, all orthodox Christians, be they Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox agree He was an unmarried virgin.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 16, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> If a pastor, any pastor was to pop open a beer in the pulpit, even drinkers would consider him unfit.  So what's the difference.... geographic location?  It destroys your witness, anyone's.  If drinking is more important than your integrity as a witness, that's an issue.  You can argue it till the cows come home, but nowhere in the Bible does it even imply Christ drank alcoholic beverages. Quiet the opposite, it was repeatedly warned against throughout the NT except for small amounts for medicinal purposes.  If you need to tell yourself different, that's fine.  It's just not the truth.


Nope, that's just you. As for "the truth," you are the one in complete and total denial and disbelief of the Bible. I reckon I've read it as much as you have. Catholic priests, Methodist, Episcopalian, Presbyterian or any other Christian pastors aren't frowned upon for drinking alcohol like a normal human. It comes from one source. I don't have to ask what denomination you are. I was one too for awhile. Putting your own beliefs over the word of the Lord doesn't make you right. It makes you opposed to what is plainly stated in the Bible.

Plus, you are overdramatizing bigly. I don't think anybody was talking about a preacher popping a PBR in the pulpit. I think if the preacher wants a cold Yuengling with his burger at supper tonight, that is no business of me or you or anybody else. The Lord won't mind, either. Some people have no comprehension of the difference between drinking a beer and being a raging alcoholic.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 16, 2019)

I think it would be hard not to drink wine back then. Welch's turns to wine in 48 hours. Not the best but I would think it's compared to milk in our parent's day. Most of the sweet milk was soured by the end of the day. Fit mostly for butter but they had not choice. The good thing was they had a cow to get fresh sweet milk from the next morning. I doubt most back then had the means and time to pick and press grapes on a daily basis.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 16, 2019)

Besides that I doubt all of those men were too keen on drinking non-alcoholic wine. They didn't have all of those bountiful vineyards to produce non-alcoholic wine. It's just not logical.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 16, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think it would be hard not to drink wine back then. Welch's turns to wine in 48 hours. Not the best but I would think it's compared to milk in our parent's day. Most of the sweet milk was soured by the end of the day. Fit mostly for butter but they had not choice. The good thing was they had a cow to get fresh sweet milk from the next morning. I doubt most back then had the means and time to pick and press grapes on a daily basis.


Drinking wine was just normal daily behavior back then. The "not drinking" idea is very recent, dating to the late 1800s-early 1900s. Our military used to be issued daily whiskey rations.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 16, 2019)

I've been to a lot of feasts, weddings, parties, events, hog pickin's, family reunions, etc. and I've never seen any non-alcoholic wine served. Now they may not have any alcohol if restricted or by choice, but never any non-alcoholic wine. 
I have tried some that I bought myself and it taste terrible. I'd rather drink tea.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 16, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Drinking wine was just normal daily behavior back then. The "not drinking" idea is very recent, dating to the late 1800s-early 1900s. Our military used to be issued daily whiskey rations.



 Drinking and the _Royal Navy_ have a storied history, the quintessential representation of which is the rum _ration_. 

This tradition continued through the Napoleonic Wars until rum eventually supplanted _beer_ as the Navy's drink of choice.

I think they finally stopped it in 1970 but I think they still get beer rations.


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## Kev (Dec 16, 2019)

God doesn't Condem his people having earthly possessions. But he does condem when earthly possession have us.


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## kmh1031 (Dec 16, 2019)

Drinking is not a sin in the Bible nor is it today. 
You all have stated many reasons for it not to be via scriptures quotes. 

Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach, wine was used at the Passover and many other examples of even Jesus drinking wine.

Why make rules and condemn when the Bible does not condemn it.

Drunkenness yes... given to a lot of wine or alcohol... yes...is not what a Christian would not want to do...  but simply drinking and enjoying moderate use of alcohol is in line with what is written 

Sometimes the making of  “rules “ that is not backed by the Bible  that some want to put on others are similar to the rules and traditions of the scribes and Pharisees in Jesus day that took the law and made it burdensome for the people. 
Like that of washing the hands in the law and they washed up to the elbows...Taking the law where it was not meant to be


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## StriperAddict (Dec 17, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> Why make rules and condemn when the Bible does not condemn it.
> 
> Drunkenness yes... given to a lot of wine or alcohol... yes...is not what a Christian would not want to do...  but simply drinking and enjoying moderate use of alcohol is in line with what is written
> 
> ...


Yes indeed, the letter (of the law) kills (that's its purpose) but the Spirit gives life.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 17, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> Drinking is not a sin in the Bible nor is it today.
> You all have stated many reasons for it not to be via scriptures quotes.
> 
> Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach, wine was used at the Passover and many other examples of even Jesus drinking wine.
> ...


That is pretty much what I was trying to say, but you said it better.


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## Madman (Dec 17, 2019)

At the wedding at Cana Jesus didn't say, "No mom I am not making more wine, they have had enough." 
Six stone jars, arguably would have held ~25 gallons each.  150 gallons of wine!  I hope they all drank in moderation.


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## Madman (Dec 17, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> That is pretty much what I was trying to say, but you said it better.


What you are both describing, my granddad called "cheap grace".  He said all the nonsense about don't drink, don't dance, etc. was nothing but cheap grace.


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## Spineyman (Dec 24, 2019)

* Matthew 11:18-19 *

18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’  19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look, a glutton and a *winebibber,* a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ But wisdom is justified by her children.”


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## brian lancaster (Dec 25, 2019)

men will go to all extremes to justify sin


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 25, 2019)

brian lancaster said:


> men will go to all extremes to justify sin


I think Matthew said it best;

"Yet Wisdom is shown to be right by what it does."

It's more or less saying does eating and drinking booze or not eating and drinking booze, define one as a sinner or saint? I think not as wisdom will show which is which.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 25, 2019)

brian lancaster said:


> men will go to all extremes to justify sin


Or to make sin out of something that is plainly not. If Jesus done it, it ain't a sin, no matter how much you try to make it one to stoke your own self-righteousness.


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## Spineyman (Dec 25, 2019)

brian lancaster said:


> men will go to all extremes to justify sin


It is not a sin to have a drink. It is a sin to abuse the drink! It is a heart issue, not a fruit of the vine issue.


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## mpwarrak (Dec 26, 2019)

So, sorry, I don't frequent this forum much. 
I don't have a dog in this fight.  I'm just telling ya why I believe what I do from the Bible, for myself.  I'm not telling you what to do.  Some of you seem defensive, like someone is taking your favorite toy.

Yeah we can have the whole grape juice vs wine argument.  That arguments has been around forever.  Where in the Bible does it mention grape juice?  Nowhere, and Proverbs clearly implies there are different "types" of wine.  Either when it is red, or not.  Also, the "new" vs "old" wine in the New Testament.  So clearly, "wine" just means "fruit of the vine", and we're all taking guesses as to how fermented the stuff Jesus made was. 

   But put that whole argument aside, because it's my guess vs yours. My real question hasn't been answered.  Why do you drink?  You know that alcohol affects your judgment.  You're not allowed to drive after having too much in you.  Yes, it makes your eyes behold strange women, the Bible says that.  But if not for that reason, why do you drink?  If for medicinal purposes, fine, that would be a small amount, nowhere near judgment impairedness.  I use a little apple cider vinegar now and then for medicine.  Grape juice would have similar benefits.  But you beer drinkers?  That does the opposite of medicine.  So why do you drink?  Seems to me because you like the lapse of judgement, makes you "forget" some of your cares maybe?  I don't know?  I'm asking you drinkers!  I'm just guessing!!

In conclusion, I think Romans 14 has the last word. 

1. I am not to judge you if you feel a little is acceptable.  (now if you get drunk and murder or commit adultery, different story.)
vs. 4:  *Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth.*

2. I will be responsible for my actions before God.  So we don't need to convince each other, we need to convince ourselves before God.
vs 12:  *So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.*

3. If I feel that I can have a little, it shouldn't be around anyone who may be offended, or will be tempted to overdo it, etc.
vs 21: *It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. *


As for me and my house, there are enough warnings and cautions in the Bible about alcohol, plus causing a "brother to stumble", and there is no good reason TO drink, so it's a big NOPE for me.

P.s.  I'm not baptist, mormon, or muslim, and have these views.


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## Israel (Dec 26, 2019)

mpwarrak said:


> So, sorry, I don't frequent this forum much.
> I don't have a dog in this fight.  I'm just telling ya why I believe what I do from the Bible, for myself.  I'm not telling you what to do.  Some of you seem defensive, like someone is taking your favorite toy.
> 
> Yeah we can have the whole grape juice vs wine argument.  That arguments has been around forever.  Where in the Bible does it mention grape juice?  Nowhere, and Proverbs clearly implies there are different "types" of wine.  Either when it is red, or not.  Also, the "new" vs "old" wine in the New Testament.  So clearly, "wine" just means "fruit of the vine", and we're all taking guesses as to how fermented the stuff Jesus made was.
> ...



I don't quite understand why it is a "big NOPE" instead of something you merely do not do, due to liberty?


The thing is...from very few replies can I discern who _does drink_. I might think I know who probably has no problem with it, but even then, they may exercise their liberty to not drink...even while upholding the liberty...to drink.

Yeah, it's a pretty big leap from defending that liberty to "is it so y'all can look at strange wimmens?" But as a former lawyer myself I too well get the maneuver.

If I had to cross examine the guy who said this:

"I may detest what you have to say, but I will defend with my life your right to say it"

I'd probably lead with something like..."So, we can infer you'd endorse to your death a man saying 'all blue eyed babies should be boiled in oil'."

Oh, it's a grand maneuver...it allows me to virtue signal the grandness of my own sense of right and wrong by display of how keenly I can identify the very worst of behaviors...(I'd probably use puppies if among dog lovers). And boom, the whole of the matter is not at all the true matter, as in this case liberty, but something else.
Does drinking really lead to adultery? How 'bout breathing?

But I lost my law degree when I was forced to plead guilty to my complicity in the shedding of innocent blood. When I saw the penalty for denying it...well..."forced" really is not strong enough a word. There was no force sufficient to keep me from that guilty plea!

So, as a guilty murderer, adulterer, liar, drunk, gossip, traitor, and thief I appear. No one could deny the necessity of such a _great advocate_ testifies to anything else. This guy's going down...otherwise. Wanna know how guilty he is? Just look at who he needs to have representing him.

Yep. Look.


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## mpwarrak (Dec 29, 2019)

Israel said:


> I don't quite understand why it is a "big NOPE" instead of something you merely do not do, due to liberty?
> 
> Does drinking really lead to adultery? How 'bout breathing?



I'll just respond to these parts, since I'm having trouble making application with the rest.

The liberty aspect is only one part of this discussion.  As to the conclusion you come to, your not arguing with me, you're arguing with God about why he inspired to be written:

_*Proverbs 23:*_
29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?

30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

I have underlined the two lines that answer your two questions that I quoted.

If you feel that you can talk your way through that on judgment day, that's between you and God.  Not for me to say if your explanation will stand up in that court.

Oh, and I'm still waiting on the answer to my question, why do you drink?

Lastly, I know that I'm probably not changing anyone's mind that posted here.  And I don't intend to do a lot of arguing on this forum... but this discussion seemed so one sided that I just wanted readers to see the other side.  Remember, "broad is the way..."


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 29, 2019)

Why do I drink? Why are you self-righteous? Why do you put your own opinion over what the Bible plainly says? I probably drink for the same reason Jesus did. Enjoyment.


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## Israel (Dec 29, 2019)

mpwarrak said:


> I'll just respond to these parts, since I'm having trouble making application with the rest.
> 
> The liberty aspect is only one part of this discussion.  As to the conclusion you come to, your not arguing with me, you're arguing with God about why he inspired to be written:
> 
> ...



First, do you know if I do, or if I do not?

A better point, perhaps, as might exceed any of what it appears as (to you) recommended abstentions, might you ask if I pray without ceasing? Do I always and _in every thing_ give thanks? Am I "always ready" to give an answer for the hope that is in me? Rejoice in the Lord...always? Do I ever consider what I shall wear for clothing? What tomorrow...might look like? Have I ever, do I ever...think about...food... i.e., take thought for what I shall eat?

Or, one could I suppose...cut right to the chase...am I perfect as my Father in Heaven is perfect? (That seems a rather _simply_ direct command...and please, consider that source!) Have I yet resisted sin to the shedding of my own blood? Have I plucked out an eye, cut off a hand? Have I forgotten all that "lies behind"? Do I always "give, expecting nothing in return"? Am I more careful, when giving a feast, to exclude those who might later offer an invite to me, and be more careful to include those of whom I am sure they cannot...or will not?

These that seem (to me) "better questions" as could be to a better provoking than an abstention that might fall on a vague continuum of dram to several bottles. But they come with them a seeming necessity. Do they not?

If I say I am solely engaged in "always and only" seeking Him, who could by right ask such, (and has) you wouldn't even have to ask "do you ever lie?"

O! that my failing would only be to be found so drenched in my own vomit on the floor, littered round about with empty bottles.



Yet...even so, come Lord Jesus!

PS, Bless you brother for your questions...for they do provoke me to consider a falling short that is without excuse, and the depths of a love to which I can attach no reason of my own, but somehow convicts me it is the only reason I am.

There is something to me quite unfathomable...but that of itself, does not prevent me from seeking to know it. Maybe the very impetus to know it...is precisely in its (His) unfathomable-ness?

Why would He...give himself...for me? Can it really be He enjoys being among those who can't pay Him back? Who can be..._that_ way? 

Who is the only One who can?


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## mpwarrak (Dec 29, 2019)

I'm having trouble relating what you are saying to what I am saying.  

Are you saying that because you don't follow other scriptures perfectly, you don't have to follow this one?  We were discussing alcohol, not any of these other topics.  And if we were, I would be standing behind the scriptures advocating obedience to those as well.  We could discuss each scripture you mentioned for several pages.   The old excuse of "nobody's perfect" won't stand up when we are judged.  We will be responsible based on what we know is right or wrong.  "To whom much is given, much shall be required"...
It almost sounds like you think it's too hard to do what God asks, so why even try?

In any case, I think my case for why I don't drink has been clearly stated in my past posts in this thread.  I would urge readers to consider my thoughts in those posts.

  I think me trying to add to those thoughts and defend myself in every way will be detrimental to the subject and steer this thread toward personal attacks and "doubtful disputations". 

And so, I will rest my case, and let others have the last word.


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## Israel (Dec 30, 2019)

mpwarrak said:


> I'm having trouble relating what you are saying to what I am saying.
> 
> Are you saying that because you don't follow other scriptures perfectly, you don't have to follow this one?  We were discussing alcohol, not any of these other topics.  And if we were, I would be standing behind the scriptures advocating obedience to those as well.  We could discuss each scripture you mentioned for several pages.   The old excuse of "nobody's perfect" won't stand up when we are judged.  We will be responsible based on what we know is right or wrong.  "To whom much is given, much shall be required"...
> It almost sounds like you think it's too hard to do what God asks, so why even try?
> ...



Thank you.



> Are you saying that because you don't follow other scriptures perfectly, you don't have to follow this one?



And yes, that is precisely what I am saying, so that we may be entirely clear. This above all is that contention I am obviously poor in expressing. The moment anything, anything at all is made "law" to me (I could say "to anyone", but will abstain to rather boast of my own weakness) I must fail, and not as one who "tried anyway"...but fail in toto...in complete misery.

That was what I had hoped to make plain in mention of those "other scriptures", (of which there was some care to not include anything of the Tanakh) if one cares to approach these as law... and then thereby would seek to impose them as such upon others, perhaps not even knowing of their own "lawyerliness" they must come to rest...which is no rest at all, upon what they themselves...do...or do not.

In regards to law, please remember Paul said that to fall short in any one, any particular one...is to fall short in all...and one does not "have to believe that", (I can't make a law of believing Paul) but he will find out if Paul is true in the words given him

Remember, the OP was not "Do you drink and if so, why?" nor its obverse. The OP's motives in his posting are his, and I cannot answer for those, despite any surmising.

What I do surmise, and did, from almost all the postings with few exceptions, is that, from the posts alone I could not declare to any surety who, if any, themselves drank...but only surmise who believed they had the liberty to...if they so chose.

And some obviously cited what they believed the Lord Jesus' own activity (as they perceived it) so as to not easily (or in any way, actually) declare it "sin".

And I am not even saying any of those would, or did, say "because Jesus did, I can"...but rather sought to uphold their conviction of Jesus's sinless-ness. While also upholding the liberty found in Him.

The upholding of the principle of liberty is far different than any _endorsement_ of any particular activity. So the better question for me, that I have obviously failed miserably in framing...is that "In the liberty of Christ (unless one cares to deny such a thing) do _any of us_ have the liberty to make law...of what is not?"

Is that too fine a point? For me though it may not be, I must concede it may be for others.
I should pay better attention to your saying here:



> The liberty aspect is only one part of this discussion.



For perhaps that says more in 





> is only one part of


 than I even think I know.

Do you have the liberty to read this?

Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. Psalm 104:1, cited so that we may know the "He" of whom the writer speaks here in verse 14

14 He causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;

*15 *And wine _that_ maketh glad the heart of man, _and_ oil to make _his_ face to shine, and bread _which_ strengtheneth man's heart.

Do you have the liberty to read this:

And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, Deut 14:26

The exercise above in speaking of a tithe, is by command...but without any particular command to the particulars of what shall be eaten or drank...except it be done "There" before the Lord.  There is liberty "there"...is there not? To even "strong drink", no?

Now perhaps some of us do need to be reminded to not use our liberty as a cloak for sin. Probably one such as myself...need it constantly. But this does not dis-annul liberty, but rather endorses it.

We could, as need be, go to all "too fine a point". Especially in what is spoken here:

But in vain they do worship me, teaching _for_ doctrines the commandments of men.

(Which does not dis-annul any wisdom a man might learn to his own benefit in his own abstaining from drink)

But...can any make any command of man into what was never commanded?

What about what is already...plainly commanded? Touching of certain things, eating of certain things (of which strong drink was never prohibited in the law)...should we talk about pork, shrimp, the woman who brushed by me in Walmart (was she menstruating?...should I ask?) How scrupulous can one be, should one be? In such matters.

Ahhh, but the man who has told us we are now not under law, but under grace (and would also probably remind this _previous gentile_ of certain matters, anyway)...can he be trusted?

Does he know anything about "will" worship? How it looks, and its outworkings?

Do we?

I am delighted you enjoy the liberty to toss a grenade:



> Ok, I'm ready for the explosions...



I suppose we shall see.

For me...and the many others that I trust speak truly here... this matter of liberty is far more than a small aspect...of anything. They see at what cost it was provided, not counting it small in any way, despite the measure of how each may see...what he sees of it. All are a help to me in my all too rutted trail of mind that would "go to law" with them. And I think no less of you.

To touch, in even what might be described as the "smallest part" of what is all made new through the provider, we in hope are trusting is sufficient to keep our eye from wandering to "strange things". That only in His singleness of eye...is found ours.


If it is a law to you, an immutable and unflinching conviction and matter of consequence to touching wine (or beer, or Schnapps...or 10 bottles of Tequila) is sin itself, you have wisdom in completely shunning it.

But neither does this dis-annul (too many dis-annuls?)

Hast thou faith? have _it_ to thyself before God. Happy _is_ he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.

And I think, perhaps, that is why the OP never asked "Do you drink? And why?" nor the obverse. I think he is less interested to hear what "any" do, than how any ...see. But God knows.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 30, 2019)

And why do they use wine instead of 7-up for Communion (one of Christianity’s most sacred rituals?) Maybe because Jesus served wine at the Last Supper (and likely most other suppers?)
Some think they are more righteous than the Lord himself, and would pass judgement on Christ because he didn’t follow their twisted interpretation of the scriptures.


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## welderguy (Dec 30, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> And why do they use wine instead of 7-up for Communion (one of Christianity’s most sacred rituals?) Maybe because Jesus served wine at the Last Supper (and likely most other suppers?)
> Some think they are more righteous than the Lord himself, and would pass judgement on Christ because he didn’t follow their twisted interpretation of the scriptures.



wine- symbol of the pureness of Jesus' blood. (grape juice...and 7-up has impurities. wine does not)


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## j_seph (Dec 30, 2019)

James 4:17  Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin. 
Matthew 15:11 11 Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. 

I do not drink anymore, I got conviction from it so I quit as far as liquor and beer. An occasional glass of wine which is like 2 or 3 times a year I have no conviction about. Our pastor actually preached last night about how some preachers will get up and point fingers, that you or they are sinning because you are drinking alcohol. Who made it that man is the one to tell another man he is sinning for things he does in his life? I believe since the beginning God dealt with those who were in sin and sinning. God has not changed, men have tried to change God and sad fully those men have changed other men the same.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 30, 2019)

welderguy said:


> wine- symbol of the pureness of Jesus' blood. (grape juice...and 7-up has impurities. wine does not)


Wine, not grape juice, unless you’re a Baptist who tries to say that the Bible doesn’t mean what it says on this one subject, but says that the rest of it means exactly what it says.

It was wine. It started out as grape juice. Fresh grape juice would be available a week or two a year at the most with no refrigeration or canners. Jesus drunk wine. With alcohol in it. So did everybody else. You can try to spin it however you want to suit your own personal beliefs,  but the truth is the truth.


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## welderguy (Dec 30, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Wine, not grape juice, unless you’re a Baptist who tries to say that the Bible doesn’t mean what it says on this one subject, but says that the rest of it means exactly what it says.
> 
> It was wine. It started out as grape juice. Fresh grape juice would be available a week or two a year at the most with no refrigeration or canners. Jesus drunk wine. With alcohol in it. So did everybody else. You can try to spin it however you want to suit your own personal beliefs,  but the truth is the truth.



No spinning here. I am in full agreement with you on the wine drinking. Nothing at all wrong with it or strong drink for that matter. Religion makes a mess out of everything it touches.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 30, 2019)

welderguy said:


> No spinning here. I am in full agreement with you on the wine drinking. Nothing at all wrong with it or strong drink for that matter. Religion makes a mess out of everything it touches.


It often does, for sure. It’s not usually the religion itself, it’s the politics of it when it gets organized. I think religion is a good thing on a personal level, but it can become a very bad thing when it’s used as an implement of mass control.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Dec 30, 2019)

mpwarrak said:


> I'll just respond to these parts, since I'm having trouble making application with the rest.
> 
> The liberty aspect is only one part of this discussion.  As to the conclusion you come to, your not arguing with me, you're arguing with God about why he inspired to be written:
> 
> ...



We need to take more care distinguishing between warning about excess and an outright prohibition.  Scripture also warns about excess with food more generally (gluttony), yet few see it as a prohibition.  Likewise, Scripture warns about excess with money and the love of money.  Yet, few read into it a command to avoid money completely.

While I would admit that Scripture does seem to say (more or less) that alcohol is dangerous and needs to be handled with care and that money is dangerous and needs to be handled with care, the external focus misses the message.  The true Biblical message is closer to "the flesh is dangerous and needs to be handled with care."


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## Israel (Dec 30, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Wine, not grape juice, unless you’re a Baptist who tries to say that the Bible doesn’t mean what it says on this one subject, but says that the rest of it means exactly what it says.
> 
> It was wine. It started out as grape juice. Fresh grape juice would be available a week or two a year at the most with no refrigeration or canners. Jesus drunk wine. With alcohol in it. So did everybody else. You can try to spin it however you want to suit your own personal beliefs,  but the truth is the truth.



Do all who would describe themselves Baptist see it that way? Or are you saying only the 





> "Baptist who tries to say that the Bible doesn’t mean what it says on this one subject, but says that the rest of it means exactly what it says.



This matter:



> You can try to spin it however you want to suit your own personal beliefs,  but the truth is the truth.



Seems most often that in which I am convicted...in the believing of consistency (which could be described for utility as "true substance") and poses in form this question: "which will you chuck overboard? Will you spare yourself to the comfort of "personal belief" and chuck the often unpleasant confrontations with truth...(that shows your personal beliefs mean...nothing) or...endure the work of truth upon you?

Now...I trust some will see how the vanity of the exercise is made plain by the question.

I can only confess to the many times I have found myself pleading from a place of near despair such thinking (in vanity) has delivered me to. The "Lord please get me out..." has not gone without an attendant "how did I get in this seeming mess?"

And it is eventually made plain I am now merely being hit with the truth I thought I could once casually discard...in preference for "something else".


Truth simply can never be made to "go away".

The devil's seeming pleasure for 3 days...man...what an eternal taunt and bummer it's been turned to so that there's not even any recall of it with pleasure...only the most miserable bitterness and regret.

This is a place...a real place.

"Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do"

That's the place the devil simply cannot abide...or accept to himself...but the only place forgiveness is granted...and the "why" for it.

Yep...a lot of those miserable places (if not all) all sprung from me thinking "I knew better". And regret is always formed in a later

 "I should have (known better). Oh what depths of vanity!!

What an odd place is "I have no idea what I am doing"...and finding mercy because one has been forced to see the only one who ever has or does...know.

A man who doesn't know what he is doing...must be shown...everything.

Might that be why Paul had such a quandary? Even though _all the weight of desire _was to departing...he still didn't know...what to do? "Caught in a strait", he said "betwixt the two." Despite all desire toward one. (unless we believe Paul was a liar!)

Seems we can't (and are not ever required) to doubt the reality of desire and desires...just admit we don't know what to "do about them".

Was it wrong for Adam (or Eve if one prefer...but who "came out of Adam") to desire to be as God? (Really...who wouldn't if seeing Him?) Or...was it in the deciding of what "to do about it"? Maybe when we begin to see what Jesus allowed desire to do in Him, and then to Him, and now through Him...we too, can be content to bear it...not knowing..."what to do about it"...till shown. 


But oh, don't desire...burn?

It's got a built in need for resolution! Thanks be to God!


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 30, 2019)

Israel said:


> Do all who would describe themselves Baptist see it that way? Or are you saying only the
> 
> This matter:
> 
> ...


Complete abstinence from alcohol is part of Baptist doctrine. It was in writing in the church covenants of the Missionary Baptist churches I grew up in.


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## GeorgiaBob (Dec 30, 2019)

mpwarrak said:


> Ok, since everyone is on the same side, let me be the one to stick out my neck.    The Bible says "Look not upon the wine when it is red..." Proverbs 23.
> 
> And it continues to describe a certain kind of wine, one that has turned (fermented).  Then it gives a list of reasons to avoid it at all costs.
> 
> ...



_No explosion. I hope you understand that the reality of Jesus as a lifelong wine drinker does not diminish His grace, His wisdom, or His sacred charge as the Son of God. Nor does it diminish the wisdom or rightness of your choice to avoid alcohol and enjoy the benefit of Mr. Welch's wonderful discovery!  Abstinance is a wise choice for many people, and is only possible because modern methods make water and other drinkables safe to consume without using alcohol to kill germs and bugs. _


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## greg j (Dec 30, 2019)

Organized  "Religion makes a mess out of everything it touches. " 
couldn't agree more. 
Why do I drink?  I enjoy the flavor of a good beer/ wine/ cocktail now and then, period.No other reason.  Same reason i hunt deer,  i enjoy the taste of venison. If i didn't like it i would quit hunting.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 30, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Complete abstinence from alcohol is part of Baptist doctrine. It was in writing in the church covenants of the Missionary Baptist churches I grew up in.


I too grew up in that Church, no dancing allowed either. We weren't allowed to go to the store on Sunday. Couldn't even play the Cakewalk at the Halloween Carnival(gambling). 
It did evolve as I got older. My Dad never did agree with the complete abstinence of alcohol though. He always had a gallon of homemade Blackberry wine.

I always thought it was weird that we had Communion with grape juice. I would think we could at least do that the way Jesus requested.


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## Israel (Dec 30, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Complete abstinence from alcohol is part of Baptist doctrine. It was in writing in the church covenants of the Missionary Baptist churches I grew up in.


Thanks...had no knowledge of that...obviously.


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## Israel (Dec 30, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Complete abstinence from alcohol is part of Baptist doctrine. It was in writing in the church covenants of the Missionary Baptist churches I grew up in.



That also begs to me the more fundamental question of "is there a point...?" and if there is...at what point does a thing (congregation/gathering) claiming to be the church, plainly manifest itself as not the church, by believing it has..what?...liberty?...to teach or promote its own doctrines in contrariety? And those under the banner of being not only "part" of the Lord's house...but a claiming order of manifestation of it.

There are myriad particulars in function and expression anyone can read if they care to read Paul. But these particulars would only come to any relevant mention if the foundation itself is discerned faulty...then their denial or misapplication would be all the more plainly obvious.

It's an interesting spiritual working to see how what seeks to establish itself...must always and only do so, is_ unremittingly forced to do so_, in plain denial of all of that which it would claim to uphold, the name of Jesus Christ.

Counterfeit money is not made counterfeit by an error in printing, or use of the wrong paper or ink, or even lack of attention to some detail. Those things only may show that it is counterfeit. But, even if all were perfectly copied...the matter of _issue_ still remains the only fundamental consideration.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 30, 2019)

Israel said:


> That also begs to me the more fundamental question of "is there a point...?" and if there is...at what point does a thing (congregation/gathering) claiming to be the church, plainly manifest itself as not the church, by believing it has..what?...liberty?...to teach or promote its own doctrines in contrariety? And those under the banner of being not only "part" of the Lord's house...but a claiming order of manifestation of it.
> 
> There are myriad particulars in function and expression anyone can read if they care to read Paul. But these particulars would only come to any relevant mention if the foundation itself is discerned faulty...then their denial or misapplication would be all the more plainly obvious.
> 
> ...


For me the "is there a point" is it shows how legalistic Christianity used to be and how it has evolved over time to hopefully become more spiritual.
To find that freedom in Christ that scripture tells us we have. To let God's spirit perform works through us instead of us performing works to improve God.


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## mpwarrak (Dec 30, 2019)

GeorgiaBob said:


> _No explosion. I hope you understand that the reality of Jesus as a lifelong wine drinker does not diminish His grace, His wisdom, or His sacred charge as the Son of God. Nor does it diminish the wisdom or rightness of your choice to avoid alcohol and enjoy the benefit of Mr. Welch's wonderful discovery!  Abstinance is a wise choice for many people, and is only possible because modern methods make water and other drinkables safe to consume without using alcohol to kill germs and bugs. _



I really didn't want to respond again on this thread.  But I guess some clarification is needed. 

First, I asked the question "why do you drink".  In my 2nd post, I said that I'm fine with a small amount for medicinal purposes.  I said that I even will drink apple cider vinegar for the same reason.  Your entire post attempts to prove to me what I've already agreed to.
But that's not why most people drink.  Some have already admitted otherwise.

2nd, much of your assessment of wine vs grape juice is not accurate.   Such as: The only reason I can drink grape juice is because of Welch and some women's movement?  And being bad in 4 hours?  And I believe someone else said they would only have grape juice once a year?

I will prove all of this wrong two ways. 

1. A couple years ago, I picked a 5 gallon bucketful of muscadines and scuppernongs at a neighbors property...  My wife looked into methods for making grape juice.  She cooked them, and strained the juice.  Nothing that the people back then couldn't have done.  Then, if kept refrigerated, we kept it and drank it for months.  It was 100 times better than Welch's!  You're telling me Welch is the guy who came up with grape juice?  The only thing they didn't have back then is the fridge, but I'll bet they had root cellars which are around 55 degrees.  Not sure how long it would last, but I'll bet more than 4 hours.

2.  One proof from the Bible that there was grape juice back then:

*Genesis 40:10 And in the vine were three branches: and it was as though it budded, and her blossoms shot forth; and the clusters thereof brought forth ripe grapes:*

*11 And Pharaoh's cup was in my hand: and I took the grapes, and pressed them into Pharaoh's cup, and I gave the cup into Pharaoh's hand.*

If that ain't grape juice I don't know what is.  Why do you think they had so many vineyards and keepers of the  vineyard and cupbearers back then?  It was so they could have fresh grape juice, before it turned into wine!

Now, I don't know what the alcohol content was, if any, in the wine Jesus made, or in the wine He served the disciples. None of us do.  But to turn that into "Jesus was a lifelong wine drinker" is absurd.


Lastly, the OP was asking about pastors having a drink.  I think if anyone should abstain from alcohol, it should be those with spiritual authority, because they are the ones most likely to cause the brethren to stumble.  Just think, the drunkard says to his wife "See, even the pastor does it!"  So yes, I wouldn't go to a church where the pastor openly drinks.  (again, if he takes it for medicine at home, fine)

I'm beginning to repeat myself.  If you've read all my posts, you know where I stand.  If you drink, don't try to convince me that it's ok.  I'm fine with you drinking, (not getting drunk) if you believe you have convinced God that what you're doing is fine.  I may not want to be your close friend though, or be around you with my kids, or with a "weak" brother.

And another thing.  We should be willing to give up anything like this if it bothers another Christian.  Like, I've been part of groups that don't like guitars in general, especially not in church.  When I am around them, I don't bring my guitar and try to convince them why it's not wrong.  I just leave it at home.  It may cause them to stumble.  This is Romans 14 in a nutshell.  So obviously, you see that many Christians stumble at the thought of alcohol.  Why do you wave it in their face and try to convince them that it's fine?  Do it at home and keep it to yourself.

In conclusion, seriously, thank you for all the well thought out challenges to my opinion, they do engage my mind in a good way.  I think readers looking for answers including the OP will be able to see both sides clearly.

I will now "abstain" from commenting anymore on this apparently highly contentious subject.  No amount of provocation will entice me to respond again!  If I must, I will destroy this wretched electronic device, at the which many of you will be overjoyed! (and help me to get more real work done) 
Farewell, and have a blessed New Year. (and don't get drunk!!)


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 30, 2019)

mpwarrak said:


> I really didn't want to respond again on this thread.  But I guess some clarification is needed.
> 
> First, I asked the question "why do you drink".  In my 2nd post, I said that I'm fine with a small amount for medicinal purposes.  I said that I even will drink apple cider vinegar for the same reason.  Your entire post attempts to prove to me what I've already agreed to.
> But that's not why most people drink.  Some have already admitted otherwise.
> ...


I can see where they had fresh grape juice. We had sugar cane juice here in Georgia as well. Do you really think they had all of those vineyards for more than just a small percentage of drinking grape juice?


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## Israel (Dec 31, 2019)

mpwarrak said:


> I really didn't want to respond again on this thread.  But I guess some clarification is needed.
> 
> First, I asked the question "why do you drink".  In my 2nd post, I said that I'm fine with a small amount for medicinal purposes.  I said that I even will drink apple cider vinegar for the same reason.  Your entire post attempts to prove to me what I've already agreed to.
> But that's not why most people drink.  Some have already admitted otherwise.
> ...



Actually...you have been (if you have been) _part of groups _in which you have merely been outnumbered. (in regard to guitars)

If I read you rightly and your considerations of things spiritual, you must know that of all matters that bear weight, things spiritual give no consideration to mere weight of numbers. Once one _is part _(and not to himself mere "outside observer") the weight of right function is upon you. A _mere observer _will never feel this.

"In the world, but not of it" is a beautiful truth of grace given to us that we may learn how we are seen...even when sorely vexed with what appears our own contaminations inescapable. It is what causes that pressing (grace being cause) to learn then, what we have been made "of". And thus is our both "escape route" made plain, and assurance there given that indeed, though "in it" we are made part of something _entirely other._

If to yourself you find further participation (by response) a thing better left forbidden...so be it, but I trust that until you say so, you have not forbidden yourself from reading.

I don't think you have troubled any, offended any to such degree that such weight (if one could even care to "count that" in numbers) is such that even a simple majority would prefer or be overjoyed at any non participation.

We are to provoke one another (which we might all admit sometimes feels offensive) to love and good works. And if, in all, your motive is to not be an offense to weaker brethren, I can only testify of myself...it is a something of depth I need to better learn. I am not saying this makes you, or any man now "teacher"...but merely that God knows my need and will fill it as He sees fit, through whomever he sees fit.

This is not enticement to provoke you to be an "oath breaker" by responding here. But I trust if you have not forsworn reading, and that of other "topics" and conversations, you will find ample room to be a "part". Unless you care to see yourself as mere observer.

I am not saying this makes anything of any of us here. If we are to you (as only you can answer before God for what you see and do, as you have had a care to make plain) that is, if we are indeed your brothers, and that in, and by grace, made members of the Lord's body, then we are already made parts of one another. 

If you see none as such, then, as you have, no less, encouraged us to appear before the_ Lord only_ for justification in any doing, you are free then, no less, to do the same.

Are you a debtor then (as Paul made clear) to those who do not know?


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 31, 2019)

mpwarrak said:


> I really didn't want to respond again on this thread.  But I guess some clarification is needed.
> 
> First, I asked the question "why do you drink".  In my 2nd post, I said that I'm fine with a small amount for medicinal purposes.  I said that I even will drink apple cider vinegar for the same reason.  Your entire post attempts to prove to me what I've already agreed to.
> But that's not why most people drink.  Some have already admitted otherwise.
> ...


You sure do great lengths to justify your being at complete odds with the Bible and what it says. Everybody then drank fermented wine, just like people do now, except probably more so. Any literature from that time period confirms this, and NONE of it confirms this silly growing vineyards for fresh grape juice absurdity. Do whatever you need to do to justify your virtue signalling and your moral superiority to Jesus and all the ancient Hebrews in your own mind, but you are absolutely lying to yourself and believing in delusions to try to push your own opinion over the scriptures. Drinking alcohol has been the norm for thousands of years. The backlash against it only started in America in the late 1800s and early 1900s, and some folks still buy the prohibition crap that was tried and failed a hundred years ago. Congratulations. You are more righteous than Jesus the wine drinker. Pat yourself on the back another time. But, you are still historically and scripturally wrong. I hope you reap rewards in heaven for your life of misery and self-flagellation on earth.


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## Spineyman (Jan 3, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> You sure do great lengths to justify your being at complete odds with the Bible and what it says. Everybody then drank fermented wine, just like people do now, except probably more so. Any literature from that time period confirms this, and NONE of it confirms this silly growing vineyards for fresh grape juice absurdity. Do whatever you need to do to justify your virtue signalling and your moral superiority to Jesus and all the ancient Hebrews in your own mind, but you are absolutely lying to yourself and believing in delusions to try to push your own opinion over the scriptures. Drinking alcohol has been the norm for thousands of years. The backlash against it only started in America in the late 1800s and early 1900s, and some folks still buy the prohibition crap that was tried and failed a hundred years ago. Congratulations. You are more righteous than Jesus the wine drinker. Pat yourself on the back another time. But, you are still historically and scripturally wrong. I hope you reap rewards in heaven for your life of misery and self-flagellation on earth.


He is focusing on the external, trying to earn/work his way into heaven. For the Kingdom of God is not meat nor drink, but righteousness, peace and , joy in the Holy Ghost.  It is not what goes into a man that defiles him. But what comes out of his mouth. For out of the mouth does the heart speak!


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## kmh1031 (Jan 4, 2020)

Interesting thought process on drinking the wine without alcohol... 

But What about when the Apostle Paul told Timothy to take a little wine for his stomach?
Was that without alcohol?  

Certainly Paul who was an Apostle would not have told Timothy to do that if it was sinful to do? 

Also if one chooses not to drink for their own conscience reasons then that is outstanding and Certainly their choice 

 As we all know wine is mentioned many times in the Bible and many righteous ones took part by having some. 

The Bible clearly does not condemn it or consider it a sin to drink unless of course it is in excess as with many things

Consider this..Grapes when harvested in the fall... and used at the Passover in the spring would without any preservatives (as we have today) become fermented and turn into wine. 

Not drinking because of not wanting to offend someone who would be stumbled by seeing you, a friend drink is also in line with some of Paul’s comments as well.


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## Spineyman (Jan 5, 2020)

Banjo Picker said:


> I agree
> No one knows if the wine was made with or without alcohol, but Jesus being the Son of God and God didn't make sin, I believe Jesus could make it without if He could heal all that was sick, and even bring back the dead, and die on the cross for our sins and rise from the grave, then I would have to say He would be able to make wine without the alcohol, believe what you want ! But I believe it was without alcohol.


That is just an assumption on your part. The culture would beg to differ with you. They drank wine not water, because they didn't have running pure water at their fingertips like we do. Besides alcohol is not a sin. The abuse of it is sin. Just like any other good and perfect gift God has given us can become sin to us if abused! What you or I think is no the issue, what does God's Word say is the issue.


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## Israel (Jan 5, 2020)

brian lancaster said:


> men will go to all extremes to justify sin



I agree.






And I forbid any man from reading further unless he can receive "which sins do you prefer" in my premise...as coming from one who always..."prefers his own".



Knowing that...you are now duly armed.



Which sin(s) do you prefer...twisting the scripture...or lying in one's own vomit on the floor...choking on it, cursing God?

The first may not appear...ghastly...in fact...it can be done with attention to the very finest of aesthetics. So much so...that any man beholding...might not sense even the slightest aversion to it. It can be done so very very...smoothly. It might even have an enticement...in it. And to it. It can be done with so much manicure...as to not even appear...as sin!


The second surely appears horrific...so that it might even "sober" the most hardened heathen! Anything...anything at all...to avoid that as end!


The matter here really is not (as framed by some)

"drink something with alcohol in it"

or

"choose not to drink something with alcohol in it"...

for some, it seems...would like to make the "choose not" as a matter of fleeing sin....as always concomitant to it. So that, any alcohol, any "strong drink" taken...is sin.

If it can be framed thus...no one _but a reprobate _would be found in tolerance of exhorting to sin! Clever work, indeed! (Some of you act like you have never met a clever man before!) And perhaps, the clever man you need to meet, has not had his cleverness revealed to you.

I speak to both those who believe this...and also those who _say they do._

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, _is_ therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

To some I needn't ask..."Is Christ therefore the minister of sin"

To others...nevertheless, the question...remains the same.

And each...even if they do not know what they believe...should.

To the man who is "preaching" with his stand upon the Bible...does it say this? Especially the man that preaches any touching of alcohol is sin...

And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household, Deut 14:26 in regards to (a) tithe.

Again..."Is Christ therefore the minister of sin"? In this word of God to man, is the Lord telling man...ministering to man...sin?

I will accept the argument that "or for strong drink" could very well mean "extremely tasty...remarkably and strongly tasty...grape juice" You are free. But then...don't from the other side of your mouth think you preach a gospel that is "so remarkably plain even a child could understand"...if you care to so greatly nuance that passage...or any passage...for that matter. Like I said...some of you act like you have never met a clever man before.

You speak like the _only man_ you have ever seen...is always formed to such perfection and purity of motive...that Christ Himself...is of no necessity.


And still you do not know where the man of sin sits in God's temple...showing himself as God.

Is that clever? Too nuanced by a clever man? Take it up with the one who wrote:

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Again...each is free to choose according as he sees...is it safer...to "take alcohol in" in whatever measure...or give out, as one pretending to find some stance "in the scripture"...to twist scripture?


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## KyDawg (Jan 5, 2020)

Banjo Picker said:


> I agree
> No one knows if the wine was made with or without alcohol, but Jesus being the Son of God and God didn't make sin, I believe Jesus could make it without if He could heal all that was sick, and even bring back the dead, and die on the cross for our sins and rise from the grave, then I would have to say He would be able to make wine without the alcohol, believe what you want ! But I believe it was without alcohol.



Why does sin automatically come with it. The lord could have made all women ugly, so they were not coveted, he could have made all food taste bad, to prevent gluttony. He could have prevented any sin, but instead we were given free will. I have seen nothing in the Bible that would suggest that the Wine was alcohol free. To me that is a stretch, to justify the need to tell everyone else that alcohol is bad. When it is abused it is bad, just like eating to much is.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jan 6, 2020)

We also need to remember that Jesus declared all foods clean.  So even if one incorrectly reads the OT warnings against excess as outright prohibitions (as some have done in this discussion), one should conclude that the prohibitions were lifted on wine in the NT, just as the prohibition on shrimp, bacon, and catfish were lifted.  (Mark 7:19)

We need to take due care not to "twist scripture" as Israel aptly puts it.  I've encouraged my sons (and most others I've taught) to read scripture themselves rather than to take my word for it.  Though I would prefer that they not drink booze or smoke pot in college, I would forfeit my integrity if I asserted a Biblical prohibition on these things.

No, alcohol and marijuana are prohibited for them based on human, rather than divine authority.  "Children, obey your parents in the Lord" (Ephesians 6:1)  and "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities." (Romans 13:1)

Leaders in the church don't have the expansive authority to issue global prohibitions on alcohol and marijuana that parents and governments have.  Power in the church context depends on persuasion rather than decree for points of wisdom for things that are not outright prohibited in scripture.  Christians can and should consider the lives and character of church leaders when deciding whether to adopt their teachings and points of wisdom as their own.  "Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you.  Consider the outcome of their way of life, and imitate their faith."  (Hebrews 13:7)  

When I've been asked by church leadership not to drink alcohol because I was serving in youth ministry and they didn't want the teens emboldened by my example to be tempted to drink, I complied with their request as a point of wisdom and since I hoped to be as effective in ministry as they proved to be.  In contrast, when other Christians twist scripture and pretend there is a global prohibition on alcohol, their appeals fall flat due to their character flaws.


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## Deerhead (Jan 6, 2020)

I cast no stone.  If they want to have a drink then good.  Enjoy!  Enough said


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 7, 2020)

I'll say this as a recovering alcoholic, this is my opinion, and mine only.    If you're drinking out of enjoyment, it's a sin.  That means you are substituting alcohol (more precisely, the effect of alcohol)  to satisfy a spiritual void, be it pain, fear, loneliness, selfishness, etc.  Any time you substitute anything, not just alcohol, but sex, power, money, gambling, and the list goes on forever, to satisfy a spiritual void it's a sin.  The reason there is a void in the first place is because our relationship with God is askew.  To substitute anything else there simply doesn't work.  It never will.  It's like trying to force a square peg into a round hole and the more you try it, the worse the results become for you.  Alcoholism is, at it's core, a spiritual condition, with physical, mental, psychological, and emotional signs and symptoms.  All successful treatment has to eventually address this fact.

There are people who don't use alcohol as a palliative treatment for spiritual conditions, but they don't drink it for the enjoyment. They drink it just because it's there, but they could just as soon have water and not care one iota.   IF Jesus drank alcoholic wine, I think it's safe to assume it wasn't to treat a spiritual shortcoming and therefore not a sin, hence not one reference to him nor any of the apostles ever being drunk.  They didn't drink it for the effects, IF they drank it at all.

Now, to the real point.  If I call myself a Christian, and know, AS WE ALL DO, that alcohol has disastrous effects on some people, can you look at yourself in the mirror and call yourself a Christian and still partake in something that is deadly to your brother and sister?  We are called to love everyone unconditionally and forgive unconditionally.  I can't say I'm doing that if I'm drinking, for I have no idea who is an alcoholic, who is on their way to becoming one, and who one day may become one and who is gonna interpret my drinking to mean drinking is safe for them.  For me to do anything that could cause another to stumble IS a sin, so the question as to whether it's a sin or not dissolves itself.  

Now I know some are you are going to say, "You just said IF Jesus drank it, it wasn't a sin, but then said, if we do, it is.  Yes I did, but it's not a double standard nor a paradox.  Jesus was God incarnate, with all the attributes and powers that go with that.  You and me aren't.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jan 8, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'll say this as a recovering alcoholic, this is my opinion, and mine only.    If you're drinking out of enjoyment, it's a sin.  That means you are substituting alcohol (more precisely, the effect of alcohol)  to satisfy a spiritual void, be it pain, fear, loneliness, selfishness, etc.  Any time you substitute anything, not just alcohol, but sex, power, money, gambling, and the list goes on forever, to satisfy a spiritual void it's a sin.



Is it a sin for a Christian to eat for enjoyment?  Following your logic, it is.  But your logic is a flawed twisting of Scripture.

For example, Scripture says, "Here is what I have seen to be good and fitting: to eat, to drink and enjoy oneself in all one’s labor in which he toils under the sun during the few years of his life which God has given him; for this is his reward." 

Why assume anything not spiritual done for enjoyment is sin?  Guess what, I have intimate relations with my wife for enjoyment too.  Is that a sin?  No.  As David wrote, "The boundary lines have fallen in pleasant places."  As long as a Christian's enjoyment is coming from inside the Biblical boundaries, it's not a sin.  We can enjoy hunting, fishing, sex with our wives, and bacon cheeseburgers, and a glass of wine without it being a sin.  Sure, any of the above things can be in excess, become an idol, and knock our lives out of whack.  But the threshold to identify excess and idolatry is not simple enjoyment.

Oh!  The bondage of legalism.


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## Israel (Jan 8, 2020)

What if we were to discover "pleasure" is itself a spiritual matter, to which we have been made free to know...intimately! The miraculous work of the God of all gods who to us is able to keep the joy in enjoyment, has pleasures beyond all our yet knowing.

It is only the dour god, who hates that any man might find pleasure in being (for he himself does not...only envying, strife, fury) that has sought by perversion to infuse even the simplest of things (yes, that man might even come to hate his own breathing to a perversion of, and to, his perverse dealing with the self...i.e. suicide) with taint of sin.

What a man might lay aside by desire to know this God...is given of liberty, and even pleasure in the laying aside, to that man. He is pleased in having liberty to forgo even legitimate things if he finds it beneficial to his knowing of this God.

Cautions? Surely...but these are given to spare men of grief, not seek to add to a sin burden. I laughingly fear the next OP...

"Is it really "good" for a man to not touch a woman?"...and if it is good...is it not then evil to be found otherwise?

How much we may infer in presumption...and there be exposed as presumptuous...is even to our own reproof and therefore, benefit.


What the Lord says...does not call for nor include our own assumptions of what he is not saying.

But...who doesn't get it? Who has not made to themselves, by wrong inference, a dread burden of life? Till reproved?
Will any deny it?

Step forward any who have not known the rebuke and chastening...we will receive you, and preach the gospel to you. Not for the sake of our imposing rebuke or chastening...to an end we already know is not in our hands to ensure...but to your establishment as sons.

There is something so ultimately unfair in this following command that its dread burden cannot be relieved nor have our perception of it as evil crushed...except by the Lord's hand.

Here we learn to love the "unfair"...when we are won away from all of our own presumptuous sense of justice, our own sense of what is "fair". Mercy and grace...are just not...fair. How much they exceed fairness is ours to explore...but, if one only wants what pleases their own sense of fairness of what is right, and just...you have already de facto set a limit. That limit...will not serve you well.


"Love one another as I have loved you..."

You know who you are. Because you sense the eternal weight and substance of that. Something...real.  Are you dying to know how much he does? Dying to know...how much he has..loved you?

And those of you who are, pray for me.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 8, 2020)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Is it a sin for a Christian to eat for enjoyment?



The PRIMARY purpose of eating is to satisfy hunger.  Enjoyment is a secondary gift from God.  If you eat for the primary purpose of enjoyment, as with alcohol, then you are eating for the the wrong reason, it’s effects,  ......it is filling a spiritual void and therefore a sin. IMHO.


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## Spineyman (Jan 8, 2020)

Ecclesiastes 9:7 Go, eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a cheerful heart, for God has already approved your works: 

Ecclesiastes 2:24
Nothing is better for man than to eat and drink and enjoy his work. I have also seen that this is from the hand of God.


Ecclesiastes 8:15
So I commended the enjoyment of life, because there is nothing better for a man under the sun than to eat and drink and be merry. For this joy will accompany him in his labor during the days of his life that God gives him under the sun.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 8, 2020)

I’ve made a career


Israel said:


> What if we were to discover "pleasure" is itself a spiritual matter, to which we have been made free to know...intimately! The miraculous work of the God of all gods who to us is able to keep the joy in enjoyment, has pleasures beyond all our yet knowing.
> 
> It is only the dour god, who hates that any man might find pleasure in being (for he himself does not...only envying, strife, fury) that has sought by perversion to infuse even the simplest of things (yes, that man might even come to hate his own breathing to a perversion of, and to, his perverse dealing with the self...i.e. suicide) with taint of sin.
> 
> ...





Israel said:


> What if we were to discover "pleasure" is itself a spiritual matter, to which we have been made free to know...intimately! The miraculous work of the God of all gods who to us is able to keep the joy in enjoyment, has pleasures beyond all our yet knowing.
> 
> It is only the dour god, who hates that any man might find pleasure in being (for he himself does not...only envying, strife, fury) that has sought by perversion to infuse even the simplest of things (yes, that man might even come to hate his own breathing to a perversion of, and to, his perverse dealing with the self...i.e. suicide) with taint of sin.
> 
> ...



I’ve made a career of seeking pleasure even to the point of believing delusions, believing my drinking wasn’t a sin.  It very nearly destroyed me.  It, as with every other sin, starts with believing a lie.......that ....... is not a sin.  Once you believe that the insanity is entered into, for the very definition of insanity is believing something not true.  Christ said “I am The Way, THE TRUTH, ....., hence the embodiment and origin of all truth.  To convince oneself into believing ANY lie is a sin and any sin is capable of your total destruction, spiritual, physical, mental, psychological, and emotional.  It’s really that simple.

What all my mistakes have taught me is pleasure is fleeting at best.  PEACE, more specific, GOD’S PEACE resting upon me gives me a joy, a peace, and a pleasure as I’ve never dreamed existed.  It’s not fleeting as long as I seek and do his will, not mine.


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## Israel (Jan 8, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I’ve made a career
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 



> To convince oneself into believing ANY lie is a sin and any sin is capable of your total destruction, spiritual, physical, mental, psychological, and emotional.  It’s really that simple.



Yes, it is.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jan 9, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> The PRIMARY purpose of eating is to satisfy hunger.  Enjoyment is a secondary gift from God.  If you eat for the primary purpose of enjoyment, as with alcohol, then you are eating for the the wrong reason, it’s effects,  ......it is filling a spiritual void and therefore a sin. IMHO.



Looking around most Baptist churches I've visited in N GA suggests there are lots of Baptists eating much more food than required for basic nutritional needs.  Recent statistics show that obesity is a causal factor in 4 times the number of US deaths as alcohol.  

But the bigger flaw in your logic is apparent when one considers marital intimacy (sex).  Your logic is identical to the Catholic notion that since the purpose of sex is procreation that marital intimacy for the sole purpose of enjoyment is sinful.  Surely, you are not foolish enough to suggest that marital intimacy is sinful if not for the primary purpose of procreation, are you?

God is not so rigid, and God does not mind his people enjoying the things he gave us for enjoyment within proper boundaries: sex, food and drink, work, art, music, humor, etc.


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## GeorgiaBob (Jan 9, 2020)

Up until just a couple of hundred years ago, ethyl alcohol (from fermentation or distillation) was the primary means to make water safe to drink. Everyone, from the aged to the toddler, drank their water mixed with wine. It was correctly considered necessary to avoid dying. Nothing in the modern world matches the historic requirement to mix wine or spirits with the water you drink.  Don't lose track of that imperative when discussing the bible and alcohol.

Yes, throughout recorded history, people have enjoyed the taste and the effects of alcoholic beverages in addition to the need. Throughout history people have attempted to balance the need, the joy, and the risk. The Bible celebrates wine and warns against excess. For some today, when alternatives to wine makes water and other beverages safe to drink, any alcohol is excess. 

Something in our genetics makes some people "predisposed" to abuse alcohol. For others, connections between alcohol and lifestyle make drinking anything with alcohol in it dangerous. For those people enjoy your clean healthy lifestyle, avoid alcohol and enjoy life! I would suggest that what is right and just for you may not be the same for others. Please, do not judge others based on your needs.


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## Spineyman (Jan 9, 2020)

GeorgiaBob said:


> Something in our genetics makes some people "predisposed" to abuse alcohol.


Yes it is called sin, and the sin nature that dwells in us. But making it though shalt not is not the answer either. Then it becomes law to you and the Law saves no one. Alcohol is not the problem, it is our deceitful and desperately wicked heart that is the problem, and it must be dealt with and sin overcome! Thou shalt not does not deal with the sin nature, it holds you in bondage to that law!


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## Nicodemus (Jan 9, 2020)

GeorgiaBob said:


> Up until just a couple of hundred years ago, ethyl alcohol (from fermentation or distillation) was the primary means to make water safe to drink. Everyone, from the aged to the toddler, drank their water mixed with wine. It was correctly considered necessary to avoid dying. Nothing in the modern world matches the historic requirement to mix wine or spirits with the water you drink.  Don't lose track of that imperative when discussing the bible and alcohol.
> 
> Yes, throughout recorded history, people have enjoyed the taste and the effects of alcoholic beverages in addition to the need. Throughout history people have attempted to balance the need, the joy, and the risk. The Bible celebrates wine and warns against excess. For some today, when alternatives to wine makes water and other beverages safe to drink, any alcohol is excess.
> 
> Something in our genetics makes some people "predisposed" to abuse alcohol. For others, connections between alcohol and lifestyle make drinking anything with alcohol in it dangerous. For those people enjoy your clean healthy lifestyle, avoid alcohol and enjoy life! I would suggest that what is right and just for you may not be the same for others. Please, do not judge others based on your needs.




Inuits, Eskimos, and some of the Native American tribes just can`t handle alcohol. They completely lose control of everything when they get a taste of it. And they get addicted almost from the first swallow.


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## GeorgiaBob (Jan 9, 2020)

Spineyman and Nicodemus. We are on the same page here. About four decades ago genetic researchers discovered a link between a certain DNA site and extreme alcoholism. Their studies over the last 40 years establish that, *for some people *(like most, but not all, Inuits), the first drink of alcohol is one too many. That connection was part of what God's people two or three thousand years ago called "original sin" or the "sins of the father."

Just because we now know the mechanism for one source of the sin of alcoholism, doesn't make it less a sin. Nor does it, in any way, invalidate the descriptions in the Bible. We have to remember that the Greek word for we translate as "sin" (as that word was used in the eastern Mediterranean 2,000 years ago) actually means "to miss the mark," as in an archer in a competition failing to hit a bullseye. To sin is to be less than perfect. Sinners are people who do not always get perfect scores in life. God does not require that we use the exact same words to describe our view of His creation, or walk the exact same path, only that we share in His joy and try to help each other find the way to His salvation.

I don't know about you guys, but I qualify as a sinner many times over. Even though I am not an alcoholic, I find other ways to fall short of the Glory of God.


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## NCHillbilly (Jan 9, 2020)

Nicodemus said:


> Inuits, Eskimos, and some of the Native American tribes just can`t handle alcohol. They completely lose control of everything when they get a taste of it. And they get addicted almost from the first swallow.


From growing up around a bunch of Cherokee people and dating a couple Cherokee girls and hanging out on the rez a lot back in my younger days, I'd say that is a racial stereotype that is mostly true. You do not want to be around a bunch of Indians drinking, no matter how good of folks they are are how good of friends they are to you.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 10, 2020)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Looking around most Baptist churches I've visited in N GA suggests there are lots of Baptists eating much more food than required for basic nutritional needs.  Recent statistics show that obesity is a causal factor in 4 times the number of US deaths as alcohol.
> 
> But the bigger flaw in your logic is apparent when one considers marital intimacy (sex).  Your logic is identical to the Catholic notion that since the purpose of sex is procreation that marital intimacy for the sole purpose of enjoyment is sinful.  Surely, you are not foolish enough to suggest that marital intimacy is sinful if not for the primary purpose of procreation, are you?
> 
> God is not so rigid, and God does not mind his people enjoying the things he gave us for enjoyment within proper boundaries: sex, food and drink, work, art, music, humor, etc.



Son.  You can't see the trees for the forrest.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 10, 2020)

NCHillbilly said:


> From growing up around a bunch of Cherokee people and dating a couple Cherokee girls and hanging out on the rez a lot back in my younger days, I'd say that is a racial stereotype that is mostly true. You do not want to be around a bunch of Indians drinking, no matter how good of folks they are are how good of friends they are to you.



Had an uncle that was married to a Cherokee woman.  She got to drinking.  He came in and said he was going fishing with his dad.  As he drove off she emptied a 22 revolver in his truck door....all 8-9 shots.  He said he sure was glad to hear that pistol click on an empty chamber and she held a pretty good pattern on the door for a drunk woman shooting at a moving truck.  He didn't keep her long.


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## hummerpoo (Jan 10, 2020)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Looking around most Baptist churches I've visited in N GA suggests there are lots of Baptists eating much more food than required for basic nutritional needs.  Recent statistics show that obesity is a causal factor in 4 times the number of US deaths as alcohol.
> 
> But the bigger flaw in your logic is apparent when one considers marital intimacy (sex).  Your logic is identical to the Catholic notion that since the purpose of sex is procreation that marital intimacy for the sole purpose of enjoyment is sinful.  Surely, you are not foolish enough to suggest that marital intimacy is sinful if not for the primary purpose of procreation, are you?
> 
> God is not so rigid, and God does not mind his people enjoying the things he gave us for enjoyment within proper boundaries: sex, food and drink, work, art, music, humor, etc.


A purely rhetorical question:

Is the believers thankfulness for the "enjoyment" provided by God's gifts grounded in personal happiness, or is that thankfulness grounded in the enhancement it contributes to God's work in and through the believer.

>>edit<<
If the latter, would not that same "joy" and thankfulness also apply to the travails which share the same source and effect?


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## Israel (Jan 10, 2020)

A man would have to be moved to "disbelief for joy" to appreciate the finding of such. Where even joy...cannot remain too long hidden!

Man...how God loves Adam. Talk about a dry spell!


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jan 10, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Son.  You can't see the trees for the forrest.



I can see the pharisees bound up in legalism and trying to make others sons of **** with their silly rules from twisting Scripture.


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## Milkman (Jan 10, 2020)

I don’t drink for health reasons. But, I don’t think it’s a sin to drink. 

But for those who think it’s a sin it should be the same offense whether it’s the average Joe or the Pope or anyone.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 12, 2020)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I can see the pharisees bound up in legalism and trying to make others sons of **** with their silly rules from twisting Scripture.



Let me set this straight.  I'm not trying to bind up anyone with anything.  I can only speak to my experience, what it has taught me and my relationship with God and what he has taught me.    I don't have to answer for your actions or your interpretation of scriptures.  I only have to answer to how well I walk in God's will for me every day and that's enough to keep me busy.  The point remains. Is drinking a sin?  My understanding of scripture is something along these lines.  If I engage in an act of any kind that I know full well has the potential to cause another person to destroy themselves if they emulate it,  then that's a sin......MY sin.  You may understand it differently.  Like I said, I'm not accountable for that.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jan 14, 2020)

Y'all do know the Pilgrims and Puritans highly valued beer, right?  

It would be hypocritical to sing their praises while considering drinking in moderation to be a sin among modern Christians.  But then it's also hypocritical to consider the Scripture as the ultimate authority of matters of faith and practice while claiming moderate drinking is a sin.

So, some folks are just good at hypocrisy.


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## Israel (Jan 15, 2020)

...


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## j_seph (Jan 15, 2020)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> "Here is what I have seen to be good and fitting: to eat, to drink and enjoy oneself in all one’s labor in which he toils under the sun during the few years of his life which God has given him; for this is his reward."



18 Behold that which I have seen: it is good and comely for one to eat and to drink, and to enjoy the good of all his labour that he taketh under the sun all the days of his life, which God giveth him: for it is his portion. 

May need to go back and read 1-17 to get to vs 18.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jan 15, 2020)

j_seph said:


> May need to go back and read 1-17 to get to vs 18.



I always read the whole chapter before quoting a verse.


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