# dog breaks point and circles birds



## Quail man (Jan 10, 2013)

my 5 year old pointer just started breaking point and circling birds will make a 180 and get back on point, any ideas to stop this, he is used to e-collar and when i bump him he wants to come back to me any suggestions


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## coveyrise90 (Jan 10, 2013)

Is it that such a bad thing? I've seen dogs that would always stay on the opposite side of the hunters.... with the bird between them. I always thought the dogs did that to pin the birds down. 

As long as the dog isn't busting the birds, I'd leave him be.

Adam


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## Nitram4891 (Jan 10, 2013)

Did you try a launcher and flushing the birds the moment he breaks point?  Are we talking about pen raised or wild?  I'm guessing pen raised as I doubt wild birds would let him relocate all the way around like that especially since he will undoubtedly lose the wind at some point and wouldn't know how far to go around without busting them.


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## 28gage (Jan 10, 2013)

Just one idea, stop! Using the ecollar while he circles birds is a great way to get him blinking birds.  He's pointing them now, if he moves pick him up and set him back where he first pointed, do this in a controlled area with planted birds.  It's also possible to stop this behavior by using a remote launcher and get the birds up if he starts to move or if he looks like he wants to move.  Blinking them is harder to cure then the problem you have now.

Didn't read all the posts, Nitram is right on.


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## Sam H (Jan 11, 2013)

DO NOT use the ecollar while your dog is in the "scent cone"....I did that with my oldest Britt , trying to get her steady and she started blinking , thinking she was doing somethng wrong....took me most of the season to correct that....Do what nitram/28guage said...get a launcher and try that...should help tremendously......Better to circle the birds ,than to blink them IMO....also , like nitram said...wild birds usually won't let him relocate/circle anyway, they will flush


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## BirdNut (Jan 11, 2013)

I had a dog that would relocate on running wild birds, she's long gone but it does happen.  Running birds often make an alarm call, and in dry conditions, a lot of racket too.  Nitram, you will be please to know that this wonder dog was a Brittany.

More information is needed.  Are you training a dog for trials where this would be considered a fault?  If not, then let it be.  Is the dog busting the birds?  If not, you have what some folks wish they had.

Some pen raised birds have been known to meander around aimlessly in front of a point.  I have seen this make a previously staunch dog decide it was better to break point and run up the birds, since the bird-brains were screwing up the order of things.  This took a while to correct, but ultimately it was.  Busting birds is a far greater sin that relocation.  In fact, in some circles, a dog that can relocate properly is a thing to be coveted.

Again more information is needed.  I would be careful before I correct the behavior.  Does the dog do it every time?

ABOVE ALL STOP WITH THE ECOLLAR ON BIRDS.


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## coveyrise90 (Jan 11, 2013)

BirdNut said:


> I had a dog that would relocate on running wild birds, she's long gone but it does happen.  Running birds often make an alarm call, and in dry conditions, a lot of racket too.  Nitram, you will be please to know that this wonder dog was a Brittany.
> 
> More information is needed.  Are you training a dog for trials where this would be considered a fault?  If not, then let it be.  Is the dog busting the birds?  If not, you have what some folks wish they had.
> 
> ...



My thoughts exactly. I kinda thought it was cool that the dog had the sense to pin the birds down. And he never busted the birds... then again it wasn't on wild birds either.


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## Setter Jax (Jan 11, 2013)

Same thing happened to me with Brigit this year after taking her pheasant hunting. I was worried about it too. I talked to  a couple of the guys I hunt and train with (i.e. bird dog mentors), and they said the same thing; As long as she is not busting birds and is just pinning down a running bird not to worry about it.  He said you can't train a dog to do that and that's what most hunters want in a finished and accomplished bird dog.


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## 28gage (Jan 11, 2013)

There is a big difference between relocating birds and circling a pointed bird.  Not even in the same ball park.


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## coveyrise (Jan 11, 2013)

Teach your dog the Whoa command. When she points yell Whoa. Any dog properly broke to whoa will not move. Same for a dog that won't back. If you teach it the whoa command, it will back. Even if its done on command. Soon dog will figure it out and back on its on. If the dog is relocating, that is a good thing. I like it to be on command though.


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## Nitram4891 (Jan 12, 2013)

28gage said:


> There is a big difference between relocating birds and circling a pointed bird.  Not even in the same ball park.



Yeah...if the dog is doing the same thing every time (180 around and point), chances are it's not relocating because birds are moving.  I'd rather my dog relocate on command as well.


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## waddler (Jan 13, 2013)

Check the wind. I have had dogs that would move to get the wind in their face.


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## 28gage (Jan 13, 2013)

I guess that's possible but a dog points when he winds birds and that most times means he's in or on the edge of the scent cone.  So a dog that moves to "get the wind in his face"  either has a world class nose and has pointed without the cone or might be one that is unsure of his nose.  But I would opine that a dog that does this with any regularity is circling his birds.

Maybe we need to define some terms here.  "Relocating" can be accomplished a couple of ways.  First a dog with lots of bird hunting experience or simply a smart dog will sence the birds are moving and when he looses enough scent he will move or cat walk to the new location and point again. (this requires no circling unless you include the really smart dogs that will run in front of an escaping ditch parrot and pin it).  The other case is a prolonged flush in front of a well broke dog that produces nothing but the dog seems to be sure about the point,  in this case you could tape him on the head to release him and have him find the birds new position and re-establish point.  In most cases this "relocation" will   involve the dog moving to the side or front from several feet to 20 or 30 yards.

A dog that movers anywhere on a pointed bird while the bird remains stationary is "circling" his game.  Now this is how I learned the game and I've been wrong before.


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## waddler (Jan 13, 2013)

I had a Brit once that backed out of a solid point in good cover, circled out and around, got the wind and repointed facing me about 15 yds away. He obviously smelled the birds, but for some reason was not happy with the situation. He was an excellent birddog.

Also, I noticed the level of scent to produce a point from a dog use to wild birds, was much lower than for those dogs that hunt released birds. I am sure that varies with the dog, but the intensity of scent certainly plays into the scheme of things.


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## Quail man (Jan 14, 2013)

pen birds. he usually doesnt bust birds the birds, I guess he is just relocating and getting a better scent on the birds


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## BirdNut (Jan 15, 2013)

In this case I would go the low tech way and physically pick your dog up, and place him back at the spot where he initially established point.  Do this _every time_he breaks point, unless you are sure he has moved to pin running birds.  For some reason, dogs have an innate sense of place, and he will understand what you are doing.  It shouldn't take long to correct, if that is what you want to do.

Pinning running birds is rare. I stated in a previous post that I had a wonder dog that did it, but really thinking back on it, I can count on one hand the number of times she did it in 11 years of hunting a lot.  On top of that, she was mostly a foot scent/trailer as opposed to a winder that a previous poster mentioned.

At any rate, I would pick up the dog, even if you flush the birds to do it, and return the dog to its original spot.  Many of the purists would cringe if you shot into the birds as they busted.  Since its pen raised, you can use it as a training scenario, and likely re-find the birds.  Only shoot the birds if the dog handles them correctly.  If the birds do bust while you are placing the dog, fine, whoa him up, and make him whoa until you release him, even if the birds are long departed.


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## waddler (Jan 15, 2013)

You never said "why" you want to "break" the dog from circling the birds.


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## 28gage (Jan 15, 2013)

One good reason to do it is if it happens often he will be putting the birds up.  In a perfect world your dog should get pointed and stay that way and the further from the birds the better.  Any movement after that is likely to put the birds up, for instance you going in to flush.

Hey waddler your avitar shows a lab, is it a pointing lab or have you had pointers too or some other upland dog?


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## BirdNut (Jan 15, 2013)

28gage said:


> One good reason to do it is if it happens often he will be putting the birds up.  In a perfect world your dog should get pointed and stay that way and the further from the birds the better.  Any movement after that is likely to put the birds up, for instance you going in to flush.
> 
> Hey waddler your avitar shows a lab, is it a pointing lab or have you had pointers too or some other upland dog?



I think he mentioned he had a Britt earlier.

I guess we are assuming since the OP asked about it, he wants to correct it.

I would agree for the most part on the perfect world comments, but things are far from that these days.  In fact, apparently folks have been lamenting the "good ole days" since I am re-reading some Havilah Babcock written in ca. 1940's and he talks about gentleman Bob being no such thing any more.  I think all would agree that its a fine line between a pointer that points a lot of "unproductives" versus a dog that can work and pin the birds.  Then there is the definitive line where a dog crowds and busts the birds, and none of us want that really.  

I am thinking back and two of the longest points I can recall were about 40 yards, and 30 yards.  The birds were so far in front of the dog on each occasion that I got far enough out and looked to to confirm a still staunch dog.  I would guess most of the productive wild bird points I have observed have been within 10-15 yards, less often within 15-20 feet.  Sometimes much closer on singles.  This would be in all kinds of conditions, all kinds of habitats, etc.  I think we have all seen when the quail would not even hold for the best birds dogs, and we've also seen on occasion a wild covey that you almost had to step in the middle of before they exploded in every direction.  This too is fairly rare, but all the variety makes for some exciting quail hunting.

Personally, I prefer not to hunt over a dog that "false"* points a lot and has to be released by the handler.  I would rather have a dog that works it out and points once the birds are nailed.  Of course, this mythical dog would also never crowd the birds, so as not to flush them before you and I arrive with the gun.

I would add that I think that the proliferation of coyotes over the quail range has made for a more squirrely quail than what apparently was more customary at some time in the distant past.  Any quail that holds tight for a dog like creature too long winds up eaten these days.  We even once had a point on a covey that started getting up every which way through no fault of the dog or hunter, only to see a red fox coming in from another direction...that covey had been running from it and the fox was so intent on the birds, it did not notice us or the bird dogs until the shooting began.

*Note when I say "false" point, it only means that once the hunter moves in for the flush, the birds don't.  They could still be there, they could have been there an hour before, they could have run 1/4 mile since the point was established, etc.


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## 28gage (Jan 15, 2013)

"Personally, I prefer not to hunt over a dog that "false"* points a lot and has to be released by the handler. I would rather have a dog that works it out and points once the birds are nailed. Of course, this mythical dog would also never crowd the birds, so as not to flush them before you and I arrive with the gun."

Neither would I but that's not what I'm describing.  A relocation involves birds that move not a dog with a bad nose or one that points trash. And is certainly not an unproductive unless the dog is unable to pin them again.  The dog you describe that "works it out and points once the birds are nailed"  can still have the birds move on him.  He nails them in a plum thicket and they leave on the other side.  False points are just that, and not a relocation.  Now if a person would like the dog to relocate on his own and catwalk after the running birds, that is one thing and I don't have any problem with that.  A false point or a point on fur is entirely another.  Nothing mythical about a good dog that handles birds properly.  It's simply training and experience.


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## BirdNut (Jan 15, 2013)

I was being a little tongue in cheek with the mythical.


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## waddler (Jan 15, 2013)

28gage said:


> One good reason to do it is if it happens often he will be putting the birds up.  In a perfect world your dog should get pointed and stay that way and the further from the birds the better.  Any movement after that is likely to put the birds up, for instance you going in to flush.
> 
> Hey waddler your avitar shows a lab, is it a pointing lab or have you had pointers too or some other upland dog?



I understand THAT reason, but wanted to know HIS reason. Since he already established that the dog was not breaking birds nor making them flush. Just hunting is one thing, however if he wants to trial the dog, there are other factors besides hunting to consider.

Wind moves scent and breaks up scent cones, many times I see my dogs hit the scent and then work for a good distance before deciding to point. Even then their body language and the look in their eyes can say they are not locked.

He is hunting pen birds, meaning there is probably not a foot scent trail available, so providing the birds have not walked off, the scent is simply spreading slowly from one location. I am certain that after pointing, wind can temporarily take the scent from the dog. Also, pen birds do not flush as readily as wild birds, so perhaps the dog is used to a full dose of scent. If it disappears suddenly, he may think he is not on them.

There are other factors involved with released birds and the area they are placed. Sometimes these areas are used day after day and there is latent scent everywhere from this morning or yesterday. Imagine a wild bird hunting dog on 20 acres that had 48 birds shot on it earlier in the day.

I have a few pointing dogs. Brits.


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## 28gage (Jan 15, 2013)

I was thinking maybe you had a pointing lab, never hunted over one, wanted to know more about them.  Read about a guy who hunts not far from me with 2 or 3 of them and the stories were pretty interesting as to how they work.  His would hold and then flush on command.  They didn't cover much ground but with three he said he could cover about as much in a morning as other upland breeds.  Only shortcoming he spoke of was hot weather.  Had a picture of them backing each other and of course great retrievers.


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## Quail man (Jan 15, 2013)

I'm just scared he will start busting the birds, and guiding hunts several times a week, I want my dogs to point and stay right there.


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## waddler (Jan 16, 2013)

Quail man said:


> I'm just scared he will start busting the birds, and guiding hunts several times a week, I want my dogs to point and stay right there.



OK. I use to guide these "hunts" a lot, now not so much. We have a saying that these are not "hunts", they are "orchestrated events". Your answer is simple, WHOA. You already know where the birds are, so all the dog really has to do is to look good while he reaches the area of the birds and then STOP. 

Like Nancy said, "Just Say Whoa".


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