# People ARE Mixing the Gospels Together!



## newnature

So-called Christendom today fails to rightly divide the word of truth, because they have mixed God’s program with Israel and his program with the Body of Christ and mixed dispensations together; dispensations that do not mix together, and as a result, they think they have taken on Israel’s role from the point where Israel left off. 

The programs have simply been intertwined in the minds of the religious world. Any kind of works at all, even if they appear to be good works in a our minds, that are done for the purpose attaining salvation, or for the purpose of maintaining salvation, and even for the purpose of proving our salvation is a slap in the face of God, who had to provide the gift of salvation, because our righteousness would be totally incapable of meriting it. â€¨

It was God’s plan to use the faith and its resultant faithfulness of the son of God in the ultimate glorification of human-kind who would take him at his word, the union of believers to Christ is that which allows God to remain just when he credits those with the righteousness of his son. â€¨Are we to study the Word of God as though it were a hodge-podge assortment of instructions that are all the same for all the people of all the ages? Some people study it that way, and then wonder why they can not make sense of it. â€¨

Cafeteria Christianity, each group placing on their plate the portion, or portions of Scripture that appeal most to them. “We want this, but we will ignore that.” “We will take one of these, but we will leave the others off our plate.” But we can not pick and choose whatever doctrine suits our appetites, as though it is left up to us to sere ourselves.â€¨

We have to allow God to tell us in the Word, the portions of that Word that are specifically written about and directly apply to us. If you read the words “ye men of Israel,” “ye men of Judaea” do not take from the table of that nation and put that instruction on your plate. You are not the nation Israel. You are not under the law, they were. You are under grace!


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## gordon 2

newnature said:


> So-called Christendom today fails to rightly divide the word of truth, because they have mixed God’s program with Israel and his program with the Body of Christ and mixed dispensations together; dispensations that do not mix together, and as a result, they think they have taken on Israel’s role from the point where Israel left off.
> 
> The programs have simply been intertwined in the minds of the religious world. Any kind of works at all, even if they appear to be good works in a our minds, that are done for the purpose attaining salvation, or for the purpose of maintaining salvation, and even for the purpose of proving our salvation is a slap in the face of God, who had to provide the gift of salvation, because our righteousness would be totally incapable of meriting it. â€¨
> 
> It was God’s plan to use the faith and its resultant faithfulness of the son of God in the ultimate glorification of human-kind who would take him at his word, the union of believers to Christ is that which allows God to remain just when he credits those with the righteousness of his son. â€¨Are we to study the Word of God as though it were a hodge-podge assortment of instructions that are all the same for all the people of all the ages? Some people study it that way, and then wonder why they can not make sense of it. â€¨
> 
> Cafeteria Christianity, each group placing on their plate the portion, or portions of Scripture that appeal most to them. “We want this, but we will ignore that.” “We will take one of these, but we will leave the others off our plate.” But we can not pick and choose whatever doctrine suits our appetites, as though it is left up to us to sere ourselves.â€¨
> 
> We have to allow God to tell us in the Word, the portions of that Word that are specifically written about and directly apply to us. If you read the words “ye men of Israel,” “ye men of Judaea” do not take from the table of that nation and put that instruction on your plate. You are not the nation Israel. You are not under the law, they were. You are under grace!



Preach it bros. You should pamphlet this to the people who caucus. You might win a few-- one or two.


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## newnature

gordon 2 said:


> Preach it bros. You should pamphlet this to the people who caucus. You might win a few-- one or two.



Paul’s message is unique and distinct from the message of Jesus Christ and the 12 apostles, there is difference in God’s earthly program and God’s heavenly program, what traditions of people must be left behind if we take the doctrine of Paul seriously?


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## hayseed_theology

newnature said:


> what traditions of people must be left behind if we take the doctrine of Paul seriously?



Dispensationalism


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## newnature

hayseed_theology said:


> Dispensationalism



Jesus gave himself a ransom for MANY. Who are the “many” spoken of? Israel!

But a ransom for ALL was not testified until Paul proclaimed it, the revelation of the secret, which was kept secret since the world began.


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## hayseed_theology

newnature said:


> Jesus gave himself a ransom for MANY. Who are the “many” spoken of? Israel!
> 
> But a ransom for ALL was not testified until Paul proclaimed it, the revelation of the secret, which was kept secret since the world began.



So your argument is that Christ gave himself for ethnic Israel only?

Nothing in the context of Matthew 20 or Mark 10 indicates to me that the Israel is the many.  Could you demonstrate from the immediate context that the many spoken of is Israel.

John 3:16 seems to indicate that Christ's atonement was intended for a broader audience than merely ethnic Israel.


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## newnature

hayseed_theology said:


> So your argument is that Christ gave himself for ethnic Israel only?
> 
> Nothing in the context of Matthew 20 or Mark 10 indicates to me that the Israel is the many.  Could you demonstrate from the immediate context that the many spoken of is Israel.
> 
> John 3:16 seems to indicate that Christ's atonement was intended for a broader audience than merely ethnic Israel.




I have history. Leviticus 26, beginning with verse 40, is the confession Israel would be called upon to make. Israel would also have to accept the remainder of her punishment, that failure under the contract would call for and that would be the seven year tribulation. When John the Baptizer came along, had anything new begun? He simply called upon Israel to change their minds about their righteousness.


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## hayseed_theology

newnature said:


> I have history. Leviticus 26, beginning with verse 40, is the confession Israel would be called upon to make. Israel would also have to accept the remainder of her punishment, that failure under the contract would call for and that would be the seven year tribulation. When John the Baptizer came along, had anything new begun? He simply called upon Israel to change their minds about their righteousness.



So you can't demonstrate from the immediate context that Israel is the "many" referenced in those passages?


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## gordon 2

newnature said:


> Paul’s message is unique and distinct from the message of Jesus Christ and the 12 apostles, there is difference in God’s earthly program and God’s heavenly program, what traditions of people must be left behind if we take the doctrine of Paul seriously?



Sorry bros. but if your saying that there are two gospels, one from Jesus and the other from Paul, or one from Peter and another from Paul, then you have at it. I will not entertain this if it is the case. If you mean something else, then explain more...

Paul did not have a different gospel from our Lord. There was not one gospel to the Jews and then a different one to the gentiles. 

I understood from your original post that some Christians mix up the disciplines from the old Hebrew covenant with the covenant of grace and that it makes for a mixed up man and a mixed up life. And I agree. This does happen. 

Our brother Paul`s model is our Lord Jesus who ministered to both Jews and gentiles. Peter ministered to both Jews and gentiles. The other apostles ministered to both Jews and gentiles. There is one gospel.


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## newnature

hayseed_theology said:


> So you can't demonstrate from the immediate context that Israel is the "many" referenced in those passages?



A little history first. John the Baptizer came in connection with Yahweh’s earthly nation Israel and in accordance with an offer to confess their failure under the contract in order to gain their promised land. That confession itself would be considered a fruit of righteousness in the eyes of Yahweh. The focus during John the Baptizer’s ministry was still Israel and the issue continued to be the land. Nothing had changed except that Israel was being offered the opportunity to confess their failure under the contract. Israel continued to be the focus and the land continued to be the issue.


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## Artfuldodger

Ephesians 2:12-14
remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

Was there a time that Gentiles were separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth?


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## Artfuldodger

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Romans 11:25-26
25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-- that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."


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## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> Ephesians 2:12-14
> remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,



Reconciliation has to do with God’s justice being satisfied for sins, and that means all of them and that means for all the world, reconciliation is a sin issue. Justification is something entirely different, it has to do with a judicial decree of the very righteousness of God himself freely attributed to the believer’s account. â€¨

Who took your sin debt? Jesus Christ! Who paid it? Jesus Christ! How much of it did he pay? All of it before you were ever born! Reconciliation had to do with sin debt. Justification has to do with righteousness.


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## Artfuldodger

Romans 11:14-15
for I want somehow to make the people of Israel jealous of what you Gentiles have, so I might save some of them.15 For since their rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, their acceptance will be even more wonderful. It will be life for those who were dead!

Their rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world. What about before their rejection?


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## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 11:14-15
> for I want somehow to make the people of Israel jealous of what you Gentiles have, so I might save some of them.15 For since their rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, their acceptance will be even more wonderful. It will be life for those who were dead!
> 
> Their rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world. What about before their rejection?



A Priesthood would be essential if Yahweh was going to work at all with Gentiles during a time when Israel was a peculiar treasure unto him; a royal priesthood. Israel was given that instrumental role to play when it came to representing Yahweh to the nations at that time. Israel was to be a light unto the Gentiles according to prophecy. 

Israel was to make Yahweh’s name GREAT among the nations. Yahweh has always considered people righteous on the basis of their belief (faith). Call of Abram (Abraham). Now we have humankind divided into two different parts, Israelites and Gentiles. Abram is the father of Israel and the father of all with faith.


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## Artfuldodger

newnature said:


> Reconciliation has to do with God’s justice being satisfied for sins, and that means all of them and that means for all the world, reconciliation is a sin issue. Justification is something entirely different, it has to do with a judicial decree of the very righteousness of God himself freely attributed to the believer’s account.
> 
> Who took your sin debt? Jesus Christ! Who paid it? Jesus Christ! How much of it did he pay? All of it before you were ever born! Reconciliation had to do with sin debt. Justification has to do with righteousness.



"at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth"

What does that mean? 

"I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery"

Explain the mystery! Mystery being "secret."


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## Artfuldodger

newnature said:


> A Priesthood would be essential if Yahweh was going to work at all with Gentiles during a time when Israel was a peculiar treasure unto him; a royal priesthood. Israel was given that instrumental role to play when it came to representing Yahweh to the nations at that time. Israel was to be a light unto the Gentiles according to prophecy.
> 
> Israel was to make Yahweh’s name GREAT among the nations. Yahweh has always considered people righteous on the basis of their belief (faith). Call of Abram (Abraham). Now we have humankind divided into two different parts, Israelites and Gentiles. Abram is the father of Israel and the father of all with faith.



 "having no hope and without God in the world."
Who was this referring to?


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## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> "at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth"
> 
> What does that mean?
> 
> "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery"
> 
> Explain the mystery! Mystery being "secret."



Reconciliation simply means a change in status, and it is a major issue recognizing reconciliation. Reconciliation from God’s advantage point is an accomplished fact, and God is reconciled where the totality of the sin debt of all men is concerned.


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## Artfuldodger

newnature said:


> Reconciliation simply means a change in status, and it is a major issue recognizing reconciliation. Reconciliation from God’s advantage point is an accomplished fact, and God is reconciled where the totality of the sin debt of all men is concerned.



What is the mystery that was finally revealed?

Romans 16:25
Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Ephesians 3:1-
1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles-- 2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,

Colossians 1:24-27
Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness -- the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.


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## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> What is the mystery that was finally revealed?
> 
> Romans 16:25
> Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
> 
> Ephesians 3:1-
> 1For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles-- 2if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you; 3that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.4By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit; 6to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
> 
> Colossians 1:24-27
> Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness -- the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.



There are those who mistakenly suppose that reconciliation is the same thing as righteousification. These people have jumped to the conclusion that Christ taking the sin issue off the table of God’s justice through his becoming sin for man is that which makes a man as righteous as God; they have mistaken reconciliation for justification.


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## Artfuldodger

newnature said:


> There are those who mistakenly suppose that reconciliation is the same thing as righteousification. These people have jumped to the conclusion that Christ taking the sin issue off the table of God’s justice through his becoming sin for man is that which makes a man as righteous as God; they have mistaken reconciliation for justification.



Paul taught salvation by grace. How did this differ from what the twelve taught before Paul received the "secret" from Jesus? The revelation of the mystery [secret] which was kept secret for long ages past. What was it?


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## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> Paul taught salvation by grace. How did this differ from what the twelve taught before Paul received the "secret" from Jesus? The revelation of the mystery [secret] which was kept secret for long ages past. What was it?



In time past, there was an issue of sins not being cleared totally out of the way, not being taken completely off the table of God’s justice, the sinner was forgiven, but their sin was still a matter of record in the mind of God. 

But now all people’s sin debt was cancelled with Jesus Christ’s sacrifice. The blood that Jesus Christ shed would now give God just cause to put that debt away, to settle that debt, to put those sins away forever, thus putting an end to a person’s legal obligation to serve that law contract, but the Gentile living during the time of the law, the sacrificial system was of no benefit to them at all.


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## hayseed_theology

newnature said:


> But now all people’s sin debt was cancelled with Jesus Christ’s sacrifice.



Then why does anybody go to eternal punishment?


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## newnature

hayseed_theology said:


> Then why does anybody go to eternal punishment?



A little history first. The Body of Christ are the saints of a brand new program. While Israel walked by sight, we walk not by sight, but by faith. The focus today is no longer on the outward, but on the inward. God is not giving us those visual manifestations, we have a new apostle through whom we have been given God’s completed instruction.â€¨

We have not been promised that earthly kingdom, an earthly inheritance. God has prepared a heavenly habitation for the saints of this dispensation, our citizenship is in heaven. God in his infinite wisdom pre-decreed that every believer would be joined to his son, fully identified with his son.


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## newnature

Today, for the most part, we are also an unbelieving people. Instead of trusting in God’s word and resting in the glories of his grace that we’re shown through the word, we are even now continually looking for signs, continually looking for visual evidences of God’s presence and his approval in the day-to-day circumstance of our lives. â€¨

The Body of Christ is not the sign nation, and we have not become the assumers and fulfillers of God’s program with that sign-nation. Many think we have, that program has been placed on hold while God completes his plan and purpose for the saints of this dispensation.


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## hayseed_theology

newnature said:


> A little history first. John the Baptizer came in connection with Yahweh’s earthly nation Israel and in accordance with an offer to confess their failure under the contract in order to gain their promised land. That confession itself would be considered a fruit of righteousness in the eyes of Yahweh. The focus during John the Baptizer’s ministry was still Israel and the issue continued to be the land. Nothing had changed except that Israel was being offered the opportunity to confess their failure under the contract. Israel continued to be the focus and the land continued to be the issue.



John's purpose was as a transitional figure to prepare the way for the Messiah.  He was the "Elijah" who was to come.   John signals the close of one era and the dawning of another.  John 1:29-34 makes clear that John's ministry is meant to be a preparation for the Coming One.


But, even using Leviticus and John the Baptist, you still haven't demonstrated how the textual context of "give his life as a ransom for many" demonstrates that Israel is the "many."


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## hayseed_theology

newnature said:


> But now all people’s sin debt was cancelled with Jesus Christ’s sacrifice.





hayseed_theology said:


> Then why does anybody go to eternal punishment?





newnature said:


> A little history first. The Body of Christ are the saints of a brand new program. While Israel walked by sight, we walk not by sight, but by faith. The focus today is no longer on the outward, but on the inward. God is not giving us those visual manifestations, we have a new apostle through whom we have been given God’s completed instruction.â€¨
> 
> We have not been promised that earthly kingdom, an earthly inheritance. God has prepared a heavenly habitation for the saints of this dispensation, our citizenship is in heaven. God in his infinite wisdom pre-decreed that every believer would be joined to his son, fully identified with his son.





newnature said:


> Today, for the most part, we are also an unbelieving people. Instead of trusting in God’s word and resting in the glories of his grace that we’re shown through the word, we are even now continually looking for signs, continually looking for visual evidences of God’s presence and his approval in the day-to-day circumstance of our lives. â€¨
> 
> The Body of Christ is not the sign nation, and we have not become the assumers and fulfillers of God’s program with that sign-nation. Many think we have, that program has been placed on hold while God completes his plan and purpose for the saints of this dispensation.



Is there more explanation coming, because you still haven't answered my question.


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## newnature

hayseed_theology said:


> Is there more explanation coming, because you still haven't answered my question.



Your question is being answered, but a little more history. Why do you want to jump to Chapter 10 when I am reasoning the beginning Chapters? 

If Israel was to regain her land, she would have to make that confession Leviticus 26 called for. And John came offering them, soliciting that confession from the nation. When Jesus comes on the scene; Israel’s Messiah is present among them, and Jesus preaches the same message as John the Baptizer. Nothing new has begun, Israel is still being called upon to make that confession concerning their failure under the contract. â€¨

Yahweh’s salvation of his people from Egypt, not the Christian sense of personal salvation from sin; that’s anachronistically read back into the Hebrew Bible. It’s not there. Salvation in the Hebrew Bible does not refer to an individual's deliverance from a sinful nature. This is not a concept that is found in the Hebrew Bible. Salvation refers instead, to the concrete, collective, communal salvation from national suffering and oppression, particularly in the form of foreign rule of enslavement.


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## hayseed_theology

newnature said:


> Your question is being answered, but a little more history. Why do you want to jump to Chapter 10 when I am reasoning the beginning Chapters?



I just want the Cliff Notes version.


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## gemcgrew

hayseed_theology said:


> Then why does anybody go to eternal punishment?


Wait for it...

Annihilationism.


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## newnature

hayseed_theology said:


> I just want the Cliff Notes version.



I bet you do, but some more history. Israel’s descent to Egypt sets the stage for the rise of a pharaoh who, didn’t know Joseph, and all that he had done for Egypt. And this new pharaoh will enslave the Israelites, and so embitter their lives, that their cry will rise up to heaven. Yahweh as Israel’s redeemer and savior, is Yahweh’s physical deliverance of the nation from the hands of her foes. But the physical redemption of the Israelites is going to reach its climax in the covenant that will be concluded at Sinai. â€¨

Yahweh’s redemption of the Israelites, is a redemption for a purpose, for at Sinai, the Israelites will become Yahweh’s people, bound by a covenant. The covenant concluded at Sinai is referred to as the Mosaic covenant. The Mosaic covenant differs radically from the Noahide and the patriarchal covenants, because here Yahweh makes no promises beyond being the patron or protector of Israel; and also, in this covenant, he set terms that require obedience to a variety of laws and commandments. â€¨

The Mosaic covenant is neither unilateral, it’s a bilateral covenant, involving mutual, reciprocal obligations, nor is it unconditional like the other two. It is conditional; the first bilateral, conditional covenant. If Israel doesn’t fulfill her oblations by obeying Yahweh’s torah, his instructions, and living in accordance with his will, as expressed in the laws and instruction, then Yahweh will not fulfill his obligation of protection and blessing towards Israel.


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## newnature

gemcgrew said:


> Wait for it...
> 
> Annihilationism.



You know.


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## newnature

A little more history. After Yahweh Gave up on the nations, Yahweh experiments with a single individual of believing; Abraham’s believing withstands many a trial. Yahweh is the owner of the land, Abraham was called to. Yahweh is empowered to set conditions or residency requirements for those who would reside in it, like a landlord. Yahweh is seeking replacement tenants who are going to follow the moral rules of residence that Yahweh has established for his land. â€¨

Yahweh’s promise to Abraham is formalized in a ritual ceremony called a suzerainty covenant. The patriarchical covenant, which is a covenant in which a superior party, a suzerain dictates the terms of a political treaty usually, and an inferior party obeys them. The arrangement primarily serves the interest of the suzerain, and not the vassal or the subject. So Yahweh is making a land grant to a favored subject, and there’s an ancient ritual that ratifies the oath. In this kind of covenant, the parties to the oath would pass between the split carcass of a sacrificial animal, as if to say, that they agree they will suffer the same fate as this animal, if they violate the covenant. â€¨

Abraham cuts sacrificial animals in two, and Yahweh, but only Yahweh, passes between the two halves. Only Yahweh seems to be obligated by the covenant, obligated to fulfill the promise that he’s made. Abraham doesn’t appear to have any obligation in return. In this case, it is the subject, Abraham, and not the suzerain, Yahweh, who is benefited by this covenant, and that’s a complete reversal of this ritual ceremony.


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## hayseed_theology

Ultra-Dispensationalism and Annihilationism in one thread?  Pretty sure we could break the internet with this one.  I think I'll bow out before I get in too deep.


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## newnature

hayseed_theology said:


> Ultra-Dispensationalism and Annihilationism in one thread?  Pretty sure we could break the internet with this one.  I think I'll bow out before I get in too deep.



It is not CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, Fire and CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredation preaching that changes people’s minds, that may scare people into making a temporary, at best, decision to do something with their lives. We are told that people need more law preaching in order to become better people, because if we preach God’s goodness, they are going to go out and sin all the more. â€¨

Paul is telling us the precise opposite, it is the goodness of God that leads a person to a change of thinking; that draws that person to adopt what God has said is true in his word. The truth is our deeds do not determine our destiny, our faith determines our destiny.


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## newnature

There is a vast difference in believing in God and believing on God for something. To believe in God is simply a matter of fact. To believe on God is to believe we must come to God in the precise manner which God prescribes, believing on God means taking God at his word.  

There will be a requirement to escape the judgment of God, and it will not be by anything that we do. We must be justified on the basis of believing in what Christ has already done on our behalf, but unless we qualify what believing in God means, our belief in God will do us absolutely no good!


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## Artfuldodger

I still haven't learned of the Gentile's fate before the mystery(secret) was revealed by Paul.

"having no hope and without God in the world."
"remember that you were at that time separate from Christ"
"strangers to the covenants of promise"
"you who formerly were far off have been brought near"


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## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> I still haven't learned of the Gentile's fate before the mystery(secret) was revealed by Paul.
> 
> "having no hope and without God in the world."
> "remember that you were at that time separate from Christ"
> "strangers to the covenants of promise"
> "you who formerly were far off have been brought near"



The only component of Paul’s good news Satan needs to focus on today to keep people in a lost condition, is the reality of reconciliation, he does not need to go any further than that. 

God completely took works out of the equation, when it came to gaining or maintaining salvation! Paul has fenced us all in and it is a closed-in pen, in a manner of speaking of wrath worthiness. Therefore, the human race is in need of a Savior, simple as that! All of the saving work that God could possibly do, he has already done through Jesus Christ. God now holds forth the reconciliation that Christ has accomplished, offering people the choice to either accept or reject that gift of salvation.

The issue at the Great White Throne Judgment will be those standing there in their own righteousness. The issue in eternity will be to which man are you related? â€¨Do you have your identity in the first Adam, or do you have your identity in the last Adam, Jesus Christ.


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## Artfuldodger

"God completely took works out of the equation, when it came to gaining or maintaining salvation!"

"having no hope and without God in the world."
"remember that you were at that time separate from Christ"
"strangers to the covenants of promise"
"you who formerly were far off have been brought near"

Back when "works" were in the equation, were they in the Gentile's salvation equation?


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## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> "God completely took works out of the equation, when it came to gaining or maintaining salvation!"
> 
> "having no hope and without God in the world."
> "remember that you were at that time separate from Christ"
> "strangers to the covenants of promise"
> "you who formerly were far off have been brought near"
> 
> Back when "works" were in the equation, were they in the Gentile's salvation equation?



Paul did not say the law was written in our hearts, he said the works of the law are written in the hearts of the Gentiles. God knows whether or not a person has placed their faith in what his son accomplished for us, or whether that person is still holding onto the notion that his good works will somehow merit them a position of righteousness in the eyes of God. â€¨

God knows the motivation that resides in the human heart that underlies all the works that we call good. It is the changed thinking that comes, as God transforms us by his word. In a day yet future, God is going to cause Israel to walk in his ways, because God is going to write his law into their hearts according to Jeremiah. â€¨

God knows whether there is a hidden motivation even to ourselves, hidden by our pride nature to look good before others; to appear knowledgeable before others; to somehow elevate self in relation to others to gain the praise of others, God knows the motivations of the human heart. â€¨

Any kind of works at all, even if they appear to be good works in our mind, that are done for the purpose attaining salvation or for the purpose of maintaining salvation, even for the purpose of proving one’s salvation is a slap in the face of God, who had to provide the gift of salvation, because people’s righteousness would be totally incapable of meriting it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

newnature, are you a real live person or a computer generated automated responder?


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

I'm am just one to try to keep it simple.  I'm not really into what God said within a defined dispensation or period which is basically man's way of trying to interject his own wisdom and reasoning into the plan of God.  It usually is full of holes.

I just want to believe and trust in His revealed word, which states, among other things:

John 3
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

So be a 'whoever' and trust God to clearly define His will for your life.  And you know what, He will!  Through His wonderful love, He gave His only son.  If He did this for you, surely He loves you and will see to it that your life is special for Him, be it one more minute or 100 years!

The Gospel, one gospel, is for 'whoever'!  God has no favorites except those whom He knows through Christ Jesus!

Y'all have a great day full of the blessings of God in Christ our Lord!


----------



## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> newnature, are you a real live person or a computer generated automated responder?



Our justified standing with God is something that cannot be handed back to God as some teach today, because it depends not on the believer’s promise or performance, but solely upon Christ’s faithfulness and his faithfulness along. â€¨

We cannot give it back, because it is dependent upon Christ faithfulness and we are sealed at the point we take God at his word concerning what his son accomplished. God’s integrity is at stake in doing what he promised he would do, we can have security of mind that we have Christ’s test score written on our paper in Heaven.


----------



## newnature

formula1 said:


> I'm am just one to try to keep it simple.  I'm not really into what God said within a defined dispensation or period which is basically man's way of trying to interject his own wisdom and reasoning into the plan of God.  It usually is full of holes.
> 
> I just want to believe and trust in His revealed word, which states, among other things:
> 
> John 3
> 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
> 
> So be a 'whoever' and trust God to clearly define His will for your life.  And you know what, He will!  Through His wonderful love, He gave His only son.  If He did this for you, surely He loves you and will see to it that your life is special for Him, be it one more minute or 100 years!
> 
> The Gospel, one gospel, is for 'whoever'!  God has no favorites except those whom He knows through Christ Jesus!
> 
> Y'all have a great day full of the blessings of God in Christ our Lord!




You are mixing the Gospels, because Jesus was sent to Israel, not to the world. When the kingdom program was ongoing and Jesus was ready to rule and reign right here on earth, a troubled believer could pray the prayer of faith, when presented with suffering circumstances and those circumstance would disappear. 

Yahweh provided that prayer of faith, because that kingdom was at hand and the time for troubling circumstances had come to an end. It was time to put an end to pain and suffering, because it was time for the King to rule and reign on this earth.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

There is only one gospel! After all it was Jesus speaking in the passage I quoted so it is important to read what he says!  He said 'the world', I didn't!


----------



## newnature

formula1 said:


> There is only one gospel! After all it was Jesus speaking in the passage I quoted so it is important to read what he says!  He said 'the world', I didn't!



Understand that repentance in the earthly kingdom program was not about turning away from their sins and not sinning anymore. Repentance was about changing one’s mind when it came to earning a righteous standing with God through their performance. â€¨

God wanted them to change their minds about how faithful they had been and how faithful they could hope to be, when it came to meriting his acceptance through adherence to the law contract. We can see how how mixing the two programs along with improperly interpreting the Scripture for that program, can lead to misguided thinking when it comes to the issue of eternal security.


----------



## hummerpoo

formula1 said:


> I'm am just one to try to keep it simple.  I'm not really into what God said within a defined dispensation or period which is basically man's way of trying to interject his own wisdom and reasoning into the plan of God.  It usually is full of holes.
> I just want to believe and trust in His revealed word, which states, among other things:
> 
> John 3
> 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
> 
> So be a 'whoever' and trust God to clearly define His will for your life.  And you know what, He will!  Through His wonderful love, He gave His only son.  If He did this for you, surely He loves you and will see to it that your life is special for Him, be it one more minute or 100 years!
> 
> The Gospel, one gospel, is for 'whoever'!  God has no favorites except those whom He knows through Christ Jesus!
> 
> Y'all have a great day full of the blessings of God in Christ our Lord!



I got there through the back door, so to speak.  I kept hearing about multiple meanings, to which my spirit reacted "God doesn't send His people mixed messages".
That eventually developed into "If you need another dispensation, you need to backtrack to where you lost the trail."

Thanks for your clarity.


----------



## newnature

hummerpoo said:


> I got there through the back door, so to speak.  I kept hearing about multiple meanings, to which my spirit reacted "God doesn't send His people mixed messages".
> That eventually developed into "If you need another dispensation, you need to backtrack to where you lost the trail."
> 
> Thanks for your clarity.



There is no back door, because the thing that is brand new, those who accept Paul’s good news in this Age of Grace are called a New Creation, but still in this body, and still subject to the same temptations. The Pastors roll is to prepare their people for the Judgement seat of Christ, that is what teaching and pastoring is all about. â€¨

Paul’s ministry was distinct, because Paul was the chief, the head architect for the Age of Grace for the building called the Body of Christ. The Judgement seat of Christ, issues with which we need to be concerned, understand God does not want us to be unaware of the evaluation we will face.


----------



## hummerpoo

newnature said:


> There is no back door, because the thing that is brand new, those who accept Paul’s good news in this Age of Grace are called a New Creation, but still in this body, and still subject to the same temptations. The Pastors roll is to prepare their people for the Judgement seat of Christ, that is what teaching and pastoring is all about. â€¨
> 
> Paul’s ministry was distinct, because Paul was the chief, the head architect for the Age of Grace for the building called the Body of Christ. The Judgement seat of Christ, issues with which we need to be concerned, understand God does not want us to be unaware of the evaluation we will face.



It's a simple idiom, don't misinterpret and misapply it also.


----------



## newnature

hummerpoo said:


> It's a simple idiom, don't misinterpret and misapply it also.



The Judgement seat of Christ has to do with the building project, remember whenever we see those words “labour or work” in Paul’s epistle, they are always in direct connection to the Judgement seat of Christ. What is this blueprint? Paul’s epistles are laid out in the manner of Doctrine, Reproof, Correction, issues. â€¨

Paul tells us what those issues are in those epistles, and when it comes to our reward worthiness or not being worthy of reward, Faith, Hope, Love, are the maturity of the believer is all about, and the maturity of the believer is what the evaluation at the Judgement seat of Christ is all about. â€¨

The Judgement seat of Christ has to do with the building project. The building is the Body of Christ. We as members of the Body of Christ, are co-labors with God in the building project. The Chief Architect for the building project, the master builder is the apostle Paul. The blueprint for the proper construction of this building has been given to apostle Paul for the work crew of which we are apart.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



hummerpoo said:


> I got there through the back door, so to speak.  I kept hearing about multiple meanings, to which my spirit reacted "God doesn't send His people mixed messages".
> That eventually developed into "If you need another dispensation, you need to backtrack to where you lost the trail."
> 
> Thanks for your clarity.



Always welcome! It isn't so hard once you walk inside!  Gods blessings to you!


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> newnature, are you a real live person or a computer generated automated responder?



Fourth paragraph

http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/2014/09/just-thought-20.html?m=1


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Fourth paragraph
> 
> http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/2014/09/just-thought-20.html?m=1



I'm not doubting the OP's message, just his delivery.
If he wants to prove that works was the way to salvation before the cross, that there was no salvation by grace before the cross, then he could answer my questions directly.

Basically what I'm trying to see or learn is, if there was no salvation from grace before the dispensation of grace or the Age of Grace was revealed to Paul, how were Gentiles saved before the "Age of Grace?"

I don't recall him ever directly answering my questions concerning these excerpts from scripture or when I presented the whole verses they came from;

"having no hope and without God in the world."
"remember that you were at that time separate from Christ"
"strangers to the covenants of promise"
"you who formerly were far off have been brought near"

 Was there in fact ever a time when gentiles had no hope? Separate from Christ? Strangers to the covenant of promise?

Romans 11:14-15
for I want somehow to make the people of Israel jealous of what you Gentiles have, so I might save some of them.15 For since their rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, their acceptance will be even more wonderful. It will be life for those who were dead!

Did it take the rejection of Israel for God to offer salvation to the rest of the world?

If the mystery or secret of this new "program" as Newnature likes to call it wasn't in affect until it was revealed to Paul, then the only one's under the old "program" was the Jews.  
So was there a time when gentiles had no hope and were strangers to the covenants of promise? Did something happen to Israel such as a blinding that made them reject Jesus? Did this rejection then allow salvation to the gentiles? If not then what was the mystery/secret revealed to Paul?

Romans 16:25
Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,


----------



## hobbs27

Art he's copy and pasting the answers from that blog, that's why he seems robotic. He probably will not engage in personal conversation, I've tried in the past with no success.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Art he's copy and pasting the answers from that blog, that's why he seems robotic. He probably will not engage in personal conversation, I've tried in the past with no success.



Thanks, I thought maybe I was talking to something automatic. Anyway I've been thinking about there may be two kinds of salvation mentioned in the Bible, earthly and eternal. 
I'm gonna start a new thread.


----------



## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks, I thought maybe I was talking to something automatic. Anyway I've been thinking about there may be two kinds of salvation mentioned in the Bible, earthly and eternal.
> I'm gonna start a new thread.




Your starting to see it. God gave up on the Gentiles, their only hope was through Israel, but Israel got put on the hold. But now the Gentiles can have citizenship heaven instead of the earth.


----------



## newnature

hobbs27 said:


> Art he's copy and pasting the answers from that blog, that's why he seems robotic. He probably will not engage in personal conversation, I've tried in the past with no success.



I wrote that blog and I will use it!


----------



## Artfuldodger

Back to the OP and Israels role.

I'm pretty sure Romans 11 is discussing Israel. It talks about the olive tree analogy of branches and the root. If the root is holy then so are the branches.
If we start at verse 15 we can see that it is a nation of Jews.

Romans 11:15
For since their rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, their acceptance will be even more wonderful. It will be life for those who were dead!

In verse 20 the Gentiles were grafted in. Where were they before this grafting? What were they grafted to? A holy root.

Romans 11:20
Yes, but remember--those branches were broken off because they didn't believe in Christ, and you are there because you do believe. So don't think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen.

In verse 22 it talks about how these Gentiles can be "cut off" of the  root. It also mentions that the Jews can once again be grafted in. In and out of what? Salvation, nation, church, covenant?

In verse 25 the mystery/secret is mentioned.

Romans 11:25-26
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
26 and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."
Covenant?

In verse 28 we see that Israel being enemies of the Gospel benefited the Gentiles.

Interesting!


----------



## Artfuldodger

newnature said:


> I wrote that blog and I will use it!



Are you Robert?


----------



## Artfuldodger

newnature said:


> Your starting to see it. God gave up on the Gentiles, their only hope was through Israel, but Israel got put on the hold. But now the Gentiles can have citizenship heaven instead of the earth.



I thought God gave up on the Jews? Misprint or please explain.


----------



## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought God gave up on the Jews? Misprint or please explain.



After Yahweh Gave up on the nations, Yahweh experiments with a single individual of believing; Abraham’s believing withstands many a trial. Yahweh is the owner of the land, Abraham was called to. Yahweh is empowered to set conditions or residency requirements for those who would reside in it, like a landlord. Yahweh is seeking replacement tenants who are going to follow the moral rules of residence that Yahweh has established for his land. 

The Israel program got put on hold.


----------



## Artfuldodger

25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery [secret] which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith (Romans 16.25-26).

What was this mystery if not salvation by grace? Perhaps it's always been provided to the Gentile and just the provision was revealed by Paul. 
Meaning they always had it, they just didn't know it. But Paul makes it seem like they didn't always have it. That even he didn't preach it until it was revealed to him. Revealed by the ascended Jesus directly to Paul.


----------



## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> 25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery [secret] which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith (Romans 16.25-26).
> 
> What was this mystery if not salvation by grace? Perhaps it's always been provided to the Gentile and just the provision was revealed by Paul.
> Meaning they always had it, they just didn't know it. But Paul makes it seem like they didn't always have it. That even he didn't preach it until it was revealed to him. Revealed by the ascended Jesus directly to Paul.



The Gentiles were never promised a particular territory upon earth as an everlasting possession, only Israel had been given that promise, they were promised a messiah. The gentiles were never promised a messiah. So what if you happened to be a Gentile living during the time when Israel had been promised a land and an earthly kingdom in that land and a king to rule in that land? Yahweh made provision for the Gentiles of time past by allowing them to convert to the tribe of Israel.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I wonder how many different mysteries/secrets were revealed to Paul and if anyone has compiled a list of all of Paul's verses that tell of a mystery revealed?


----------



## Artfuldodger

newnature said:


> The Gentiles were never promised a particular territory upon earth as an everlasting possession, only Israel had been given that promise, they were promised a messiah. The gentiles were never promised a messiah. So what if you happened to be a Gentile living during the time when Israel had been promised a land and an earthly kingdom in that land and a king to rule in that land? Yahweh made provision for the Gentiles of time past by allowing them to convert to the tribe of Israel.



How does one go about separating from scripture to prevent the mixing? Meaning when is Israel the nation and when is it the Church? 
How can someone read Romans 11 and not see it as the nation of Israel? Especially with all of the blinding and hardening of the Jews to allow the Gentiles to enter. Especially with all of the talk of grafting, branches, roots, and being "cut off."

So what does becoming an adopted Jew gain us?


----------



## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> I wonder how many different mysteries/secrets were revealed to Paul and if anyone has compiled a list of all of Paul's verses that tell of a mystery revealed?



Is it not interesting that the Gentiles had been considered dogs? Now you come to Paul speaking to the saints in Philippi, and it is the unbelieving Israelites who are considered dogs.

Here is the mystery, God has committed to us the ministry of reconciliation, to tell the world God is not imputing their trespasses unto them; so we see the world still thinks he is.


----------



## newnature

We are alive because of our identity, not at all because of our practice. As we understand what God accomplished for us through his son, we build upon that foundation the truths of who he has made us to be when he placed us into his son, we begin to view ourselves as God views us, and there is great security to be found in doing so. â€¨

God’s love for those who are joined to his son is the same unalterable and unending love God has for his son. God no longer views us in our human flesh, he views us in our position in the last Adam (Jesus Christ), he views us in our glorified identity. 

There are those who mistakenly suppose that reconciliation is the same thing as righteousification. These people have jumped to the conclusion that Christ taking the sin issue off the table of God’s justice through his becoming sin for man is that which makes a man as righteous as God; they have mistaken reconciliation for justification.


----------



## newnature

Matt. 12:36 - The meaning of ‘idle word’ is careless or useless sayings. Starting in Matt. 12:22, their was a Pharisee who was guilty of everything in the context of that story. Paul is who that Pharisee was and Paul was not only first in line, when it came to dispensing the grace of God, Paul was also foremost in crime when it came to murdering the saints of Israel’s earthly kingdom program. â€¨

If Paul was at Pentecost, would Paul himself, if he took part in stoning Stephen for believing the message given at Pentecost, would he have been a blasphemer at Pentecost? In Paul’s pre-grace zealousness, he would have been a foremost rejecter of any notion whatsoever that Jesus was Israel’s messiah or that Jesus had been risen from among the dead. â€¨

First in line, first in crime are apt descriptions for the Apostle of Grace. Paul was the chosen spokesman for God to relay the information for this entire dispensation of grace. God is not dealing with Israel nationally today, he is dealing with all alike in the Age of Grace. The apostle Paul dispensed a message that the 12 apostles had not dispensed, and that message was different, and that message was geared to the Gentiles. â€¨

Paul is the chief pattern of God’s grace to all, he is the foremost example. We need to understand that even though Paul was saved, Paul still considered himself to be a sinner. Paul understood the word: Sin. And Paul understood that word meant to come short of the righteousness belonging to God himself. Paul is the foremost example of the impossibility, the total impossibility of gaining righteousness before God through the performance of the flesh. Those who are sealed in Christ, our careless or useless sayings and words are a Judgment Seat of Christ issue.


----------



## newnature

The fact that Christ became a redeemer of the world, does not mean that the world will accept the gift the Redeemer purchased on their behalf. Christ’s faithfulness was the only faithfulness sufficient to merit God’s favor. God used our faith in Christ’s faithfulness as the means whereby he would credit Christ’s righteousness to our account. â€¨

To be justified does not mean to be perfectly righteous in performance. It also does not mean to become perfectly righteous or even more righteous in performance through time. It means having Christ’s perfect righteousness freely credited to the account of the ungodly who believe. â€¨

Our justification was something accomplished for us by God’s grace. This gift decree of righteousness comes totally apart from any and all human promise, any or all human performance,  or any or all human production. God will never consider our works as a payment for God’s justifying declaration.


----------



## Will Galen

newnature said:


> Jesus gave himself a ransom for MANY. Who are the “many” spoken of? Israel!



The ransom covers everyone, not just Israel. The many spoken of are all those who obey Jesus.

Hebrews 5:9 (RSV) and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him.

(John 12:47) 47â€¯But if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I came, not to judge the world, but to save the world. 




> But a ransom for ALL was not testified until Paul proclaimed it, the revelation of the secret, which was kept secret since the world began.



What secret? Paul was just proclaiming what was already known. Even the Samaritans knew the Messiah was the Savior of the world. The Samaritan woman at the well said, John 4:25 . . . “I know that Mes·siÊ¹ah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one comes, he will declare all things to us openly.” 26â€¯Jesus said to her: “I am he, the one speaking to you.”

John 4:39â€¯Many of the Sa·marÊ¹i·tans from that city put faith in him because of the word of the woman who bore witness, saying: “He told me all the things I did.” 40â€¯So when the Sa·marÊ¹i·tans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days. 41â€¯As a result, many more believed because of what he said, 42â€¯and they said to the woman: “We no longer believe just because of what you said; for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the savior of the world.”

Most everything you write is opinion, you quote very little scripture. Mainly you are contradicting scripture with your opinion.


----------



## newnature

Will Galen said:


> The ransom covers everyone, not just Israel. The many spoken of are all those who obey Jesus.
> 
> Hebrews 5:9 (RSV) and being made perfect he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him.
> 
> (John 12:47) 47â€¯But if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I came, not to judge the world, but to save the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What secret? Paul was just proclaiming what was already known. Even the Samaritans knew the Messiah was the Savior of the world. The Samaritan woman at the well said, John 4:25 . . . “I know that Mes·siÊ¹ah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one comes, he will declare all things to us openly.” 26â€¯Jesus said to her: “I am he, the one speaking to you.”
> 
> John 4:39â€¯Many of the Sa·marÊ¹i·tans from that city put faith in him because of the word of the woman who bore witness, saying: “He told me all the things I did.” 40â€¯So when the Sa·marÊ¹i·tans came to him, they asked him to stay with them, and he stayed there two days. 41â€¯As a result, many more believed because of what he said, 42â€¯and they said to the woman: “We no longer believe just because of what you said; for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the savior of the world.”
> 
> Most everything you write is opinion, you quote very little scripture. Mainly you are contradicting scripture with your opinion.




I like to reason God's Word, after all they did it in Acts. 

Matt. 12:36 - The meaning of ‘idle word’ is careless or useless sayings. Starting in Matt. 12:22, their was a Pharisee who was guilty of everything in the context of that story. Paul is who that Pharisee was and Paul was not only first in line, when it came to dispensing the grace of God, Paul was also foremost in crime when it came to murdering the saints of Israel’s earthly kingdom program. â€¨

If Paul was at Pentecost, would Paul himself, if he took part in stoning Stephen for believing the message given at Pentecost, would he have been a blasphemer at Pentecost? In Paul’s pre-grace zealousness, he would have been a foremost rejecter of any notion whatsoever that Jesus was Israel’s messiah or that Jesus had been risen from among the dead. â€¨

First in line, first in crime are apt descriptions for the Apostle of Grace. Paul was the chosen spokesman for God to relay the information for this entire dispensation of grace. God is not dealing with Israel nationally today, he is dealing with all alike in the Age of Grace. The apostle Paul dispensed a message that the 12 apostles had not dispensed, and that message was different, and that message was geared to the Gentiles. â€¨

Paul is the chief pattern of God’s grace to all, he is the foremost example. We need to understand that even though Paul was saved, Paul still considered himself to be a sinner. Paul understood the word: Sin. And Paul understood that word meant to come short of the righteousness belonging to God himself. Paul is the foremost example of the impossibility, the total impossibility of gaining righteousness before God through the performance of the flesh. Those who are sealed in Christ, our careless or useless sayings and words are a Judgment Seat of Christ issue.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Will Galen said:


> What secret? Paul was just proclaiming what was already known. Even the Samaritans knew the Messiah was the Savior of the world. The Samaritan woman at the well said, John 4:25 . . . “I know that Mes·siÊ¹ah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one comes, he will declare all things to us openly.” 26â€¯Jesus said to her: “I am he, the one speaking to you.”



according to the revelation of the mystery [secret] which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested,

Paul mentions it in a few other verses. I'm not sure what it is but it is mentioned.


----------



## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> according to the revelation of the mystery [secret] which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested,
> 
> Paul mentions it in a few other verses. I'm not sure what it is but it is mentioned.



If a person believes Christ died for their sins, but does not believe that God’s justice was satisfied, when Christ died for those sins, that person has not believed Christ died for their sins. God purchased the human race out of sins dominion, never to be returned to the market place of sin again. â€¨

By removing the sin issue from the table of God’s justice, God effectively canceled Satan’s ownership of all the human race. Satan can lay claim to no person based on that persons sinfulness.


----------



## Artfuldodger

newnature said:


> If a person believes Christ died for their sins, but does not believe that God’s justice was satisfied, when Christ died for those sins, that person has not believed Christ died for their sins. God purchased the human race out of sins dominion, never to be returned to the market place of sin again. â€¨
> 
> By removing the sin issue from the table of God’s justice, God effectively canceled Satan’s ownership of all the human race. Satan can lay claim to no person based on that persons sinfulness.



Am I a real person?


----------



## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> Am I a real person?



God allows saints to suffer today, because God’s strength is made perfect in the life of the suffering saint. If God’s strength was made perfect in fixing the saint, Paul would be telling us to pray for the fix, but Paul is filling us in on a secret that Jesus Christ revealed to him. God expects us to make the right use of our minds in light of the doctrine he’s given us through the ministry of the apostle Paul.


----------



## newnature

Let’s say there is one Gospel, how would it play out. We see the “prayer of faith” Israel walked by sight, Yahweh allowed their prayer life to work in connection with sight as that earthly kingdom was on their doorstep. Yahweh worked in connection with the sign nation, the healings that were performed and the power resident in the prayer of faith. â€¨

When the kingdom program was ongoing and Jesus was ready to rule and reign right here on earth, a troubled believer could pray the prayer of faith, when presented with suffering circumstances and those circumstance would disappear. Yahweh provided that prayer of faith, because that kingdom was at hand and the time for troubling circumstances had come to an end. It was time to put an end to pain and suffering, because it was time for the King to rule and reign on this earth. â€¨

Mountain moving faith was Yahweh’s way of being glorified in the sovereign reign of the king. “It shall be done” mountain moving faith used in conjunction with the prayer of faith. Was Jesus pushing them toward faith or was he proving Israel’s lack of faith. â€¨

So an Israelite makes that confession itself would be considered a fruit of righteousness in the eyes of Yahweh. Leviticus 26, beginning with verse 40, is the confession Israel would be called upon to make. Israel would also have to accept the remainder of her punishment, that failure under the law contract would call for and that would be the seven year tribulation. â€¨

Now before that kingdom could be realized, there was a prophetic event that had to take place first. The way Jesus taught has special application to that tribulation period to those people who were being taught to pray in this manner. This will be a very heartfelt prayer during the tribulation period. During the time of Jacob’s trouble, the Israelites will be under tremendous persecution from the antichrist. He will be putting Israelites to death for their faith. The Israelites will be praying at that time, “thy kingdom come” the promised earthly kingdom to be set up right here on earth, because the only hope of deliverance for the believing Israelites at that time, will be the coming of the king and setting up of the earthly kingdom. But Israel killed their king.


----------



## welderguy

newnature said:


> Let’s say there is one Gospel, how would it play out. We see the “prayer of faith” Israel walked by sight, Yahweh allowed their prayer life to work in connection with sight as that earthly kingdom was on their doorstep. Yahweh worked in connection with the sign nation, the healings that were performed and the power resident in the prayer of faith. â€¨
> 
> When the kingdom program was ongoing and Jesus was ready to rule and reign right here on earth, a troubled believer could pray the prayer of faith, when presented with suffering circumstances and those circumstance would disappear. Yahweh provided that prayer of faith, because that kingdom was at hand and the time for troubling circumstances had come to an end. It was time to put an end to pain and suffering, because it was time for the King to rule and reign on this earth. â€¨
> 
> Mountain moving faith was Yahweh’s way of being glorified in the sovereign reign of the king. “It shall be done” mountain moving faith used in conjunction with the prayer of faith. Was Jesus pushing them toward faith or was he proving Israel’s lack of faith. â€¨
> 
> So an Israelite makes that confession itself would be considered a fruit of righteousness in the eyes of Yahweh. Leviticus 26, beginning with verse 40, is the confession Israel would be called upon to make. Israel would also have to accept the remainder of her punishment, that failure under the law contract would call for and that would be the seven year tribulation. â€¨
> 
> Now before that kingdom could be realized, there was a prophetic event that had to take place first. The way Jesus taught has special application to that tribulation period to those people who were being taught to pray in this manner. This will be a very heartfelt prayer during the tribulation period. During the time of Jacob’s trouble, the Israelites will be under tremendous persecution from the antichrist. He will be putting Israelites to death for their faith. The Israelites will be praying at that time, “thy kingdom come” the promised earthly kingdom to be set up right here on earth, because the only hope of deliverance for the believing Israelites at that time, will be the coming of the king and setting up of the earthly kingdom. But Israel killed their king.



Discombobulation.


----------



## newnature

welderguy said:


> Discombobulation.



You see, if Israel could have their sins remitted nationally, then Israel could indeed become that holy nation and kingdom of priests. And if Israel could become that holy nation and kingdom of priests, then the Gentiles would be able to come to Yahweh through Israel’s rise. That is why it would be important for Jesus ‘the messiah’ to be risen, so Israel could have their sins remitted, and they could arise, and the Gentiles could come to Yahweh through the nation Israel. It was only Israel having access to that eternal life that would make it possible for the Gentiles to have that eternal life through Israel’s rise, through the nation Israel. â€¨

But you see, Israel nationally did not accept the Gospel of the Kingdom of Yahweh. They did not accept the Gospel of Yahweh; that Jesus was the son of Yahweh or that Jesus was the risen messiah. They did not accept that at all, so rather than rise, Israel fell. Yet, when it comes to Jesus being risen from among the dead, how could Israel’s promised earthly king sit on the throne of David in a promised literal, earthly kingdom, if the king Yahweh anointed for that kingdom remained a dead king. â€¨

If Jesus be not risen, there is no earthly king. If Jesus be not risen, there is no earthly kingdom. If there is no earthly kingdom and that is when Israel is supposed to be forgiven, then there is no forgiveness for the nation Israel; for the saints of the kingdom program. And if there is no forgiveness, there is no salvation. And if there is no salvation, there certainly is no bodily resurrection. And if there is no bodily resurrection, all this is a story, a fairytale.


----------



## welderguy

Where's Centerpin when we need him?


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## newnature

welderguy said:


> Where's Centerpin when we need him?



Now the time period of the parable Jesus gave in Luke chapter 13, the one additional year given Israel until the fig tree was to be cut down, still has the majority of a year to transpire at this point. This is what Jesus meant when he said he gave Peter the “keys” to the Kingdom. Peter had the ability to “unlock” and “open the door” to the Kingdom, he proclaimed the message they had to believe. Jesus gave himself a ransom for MANY. Who are the “many” spoken of? Israel! The beginning of Israel’s last days of her program, they were being equipped for the upcoming time of tribulation right on their horizon. â€¨

Yahweh used the physical senses in every respect in connection with his sign nation at Israel’s high holy feast day called Pentecost. Yahweh gave his sign nation things to SEE and to HEAR and to SPEAK! The physical senses were used by Yahweh that Israel might WITNESS their deliverance. The expressions “before our eyes” and “in our sight” tell us how Yahweh worked as Israel was approaching the last days of her program, which was to culminate in an entrance to her promised earthly kingdom. In spite of all these visual manifestations that Yahweh worked in time past, Israel for the most part remained in unbelief. They were either attributing Yahweh’s work to Satan, or they were attributing Satan’s work to Yahweh.


----------



## newnature

Israel as a nation was still the focus in Acts chapter 2, as they were given a taste of their promised earthly kingdom there with Yahweh’s empowerments for The Tribulation endurance and for the earthly kingdom entrance. Focus is still that land and the attempt to get Israel’s leadership to change their minds about the source of their righteousness and accept Jesus as indeed their Messiah. Peter promises Israel that if she will change her minds, Yahweh will send Messiah back and their promised Kingdom can get back underway, just as it was promised. Peter called it the times of refreshing speaking of a direct reference there to the millennial reign of Messiah on the earth. â€¨

â€¨The beginning of Israel’s last days of her program, they were being equipped for the upcoming time of tribulation right on their horizon. They were more abundant than ever, God used the physical senses in every respect in connection with his sign nation at Israel’s high holy feast day called Pentecost. â€¨

This was not a mystery, this was not a secret, it was exactly what the bible had foretold would take place when it came to the sign nation. â€¨

God gave his sign nation things to see and to hear and to speak, the physical senses were used through God’s power from on high, that Israel might witness their deliverance; “before our eyes” and “in our sight” tell us how God’s power from on high worked as Israel was approaching the last days of her program, which was to culminate in an entrance to her promised earthly kingdom. â€¨

The visual manifestations of God’s power from on high was directly involved in as the nation Israel was given every visual opportunity to change their thinking about the identity of their Messiah and their ability to perform up to the standard of God’s righteousness, when it came to the law contract.


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## Miguel Cervantes

This is the most bizarre stuff I've ever read. Are you part of a new sect of believers in Oregon that is part of a church we've never heard of? Honest question.


----------



## hummerpoo

welderguy said:


> Discombobulation.



I believe Art was right.
Computer generated response.
Surely it can be blocked?


----------



## newnature

Miguel Cervantes said:


> This is the most bizarre stuff I've ever read. Are you part of a new sect of believers in Oregon that is part of a church we've never heard of? Honest question.



No, I don't do churches. Just a researcher. Check out more of Israel's history. When God would set his program with Israel in abeyance for the ushering in an unprophecied age with us Gentiles. From the time that God sent Moses to deliver them from their Egyptian captivity, Israel was give things to see, to witness for themselves in order to visually verify God’s presence and his purpose with them, yet, for all the visual evidences that God gave to Israel, Israel would not believe God. â€¨

This isn't the first Israel would not believe. The fall of Jerusalem shattered the national and territorial basis of Israel’s culture and religion. The Babylonians had burned the temple to the ground, they carried away most of the people to exile, to life in exile in Babylon, leaving behind mostly members of the lower classes to eke out a living as best they could. And it was the completion of the tragedy that had begun centuries earlier, and it was interpreted as a fulfillment of the covenant curses. â€¨

It was the end of the Davidic monarchy, although the son of Jeholakim was alive and living in Babylon, kind of holding out hope that the line hadn’t actually been killed out, hadn’t been completely wiped out. But the institution seemed to have come to an end for now. It was the end of the temple, the end of the priesthood, the end of Israel as a nation; as an autonomous nation, the Israelites were confronted with a great test. â€¨

One could see in these events a signal that Yahweh had abandoned Israel to, or had been defeated by the god of the Babylonians, and Marduk would replace Yahweh, as the Israelites assimilated themselves into their new home. And certainly there were Israelites who went that route, but others who were firmly rooted in exclusive Yahwism did not. â€¨

Yahweh hadn’t been defeated, the nations’s calamities were not disproof of Yahweh’s power and covenant, they were proof of it. Yahweh’s desire for morality as expressed in the ancient covenant, the prophets had spoken truly when they had said that destruction would follow, if the people didn’t turn from their moral and religious violations of Yahweh’s law. The defeat and the exile had the potential to convince Israelites of the need to show absolute and undivided devotion to Yahweh and his commandments.


----------



## newnature

hummerpoo said:


> I believe Art was right.
> Computer generated response.
> Surely it can be blocked?



No generation, but check out more of Israel's history. Vehement denunciation moral decay and social injustice of the period, leading up to the fall of the northern kingdom and southern kingdom of Israel. A prophet criticizes the sins of the nation, he is critical of everyone, the middle class, the government, the king, the establishment, the priesthood; they’re all plagued by a superficial kind of piety. Amos, and all the prophets, the idea of covenant prescribes a particular relationship with Yahweh, but not only with Yahweh; also with one’s fellow human beings. â€¨

The two are interlinked. It is a sign of closeness to Yahweh that one is concerned for Israel’s poor and needy. The two are completely interlinked. Amos denounces the wealthy. He denounces the powerful and the way they treat the poor. The crimes that are denounced, are crimes that are prevalent in any society in any era. The crimes that are denounced as being utterly unacceptable to Yahweh, infuriating Yahweh to the point of destruction of the nation, are the kinds of crimes we see around us everyday, taking bribes, improper weights and balances, lack of charity to the poor, indifference to the plight of the debtor. â€¨

Injustice is sacrilege, the ideals of the covenant are of utmost importance. These prophets are called the standard bearers of the covenant, harking back to the covenant obligations. And without these, without the ideals of the covenant, the fulfillment of ritual obligations in and of itself is a farce. Morality is not just an obligation equal in importance to the cult or religious obligations, but that morality is perhaps superior to the cult. â€¨

What Yahweh requires of Israel is morality and not cultic service. The prophets raised morality to the level of an absolute religious value, and they did so because they saw morality as essentially divine. The essence of Yahweh is his moral nature. Moral attributes are the essence of Yahweh himself, one strives to be Yahweh-like by imitating his moral actions. The prophets insisted that morality was a decisive, if not the decisive factor in the nations’ history; Israel’s acceptance of Yahweh’s covenant placed certain religious and moral demands on her.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

newnature said:


> No, I don't do churches.



End of thread.


----------



## Artfuldodger

newnature said:


> No, I don't do churches. Just a researcher.



I recall you telling us this before. What is it you are looking for in our responses to your seemingly automated responses? You appear to be more motivated to getting a certain agenda across than an actual debate or even a question & answer session. Your responses are very vague to the thread #, perhaps one sentence and then the rest is back to your agenda. 
Is the research related to your ideals and beliefs or just a school project? Maybe if we knew exactly what it is your are trying to accomplish.


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## hummerpoo

Just my opinion Art, but I think he's taking up space.


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## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Just my opinion Art, but I think he's taking up space.



I would agree unless he can explain his research and reason.


----------



## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> I recall you telling us this before. What is it you are looking for in our responses to your seemingly automated responses? You appear to be more motivated to getting a certain agenda across than an actual debate or even a question & answer session. Your responses are very vague to the thread #, perhaps one sentence and then the rest is back to your agenda.
> Is the research related to your ideals and beliefs or just a school project? Maybe if we knew exactly what it is your are trying to accomplish.



I agree with you, I was trying to show what was going on before the secret Paul was taught.


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## newnature

hummerpoo said:


> Just my opinion Art, but I think he's taking up space.



These are sound reasonings though?


----------



## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> I would agree unless he can explain his research and reason.



What would you like to know?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

newnature said:


> I agree with you, I was trying to show what was going on before the secret Paul was taught.



Your research lacks anthropological connections and ignores validations set forth in Revelation. It blends old testament law with the good news, the Gospel (not Gospels) Your research is highly indicative of an approach an engineer would take towards reading the Bible, not a scholar. It is void of the Spirit and leans heavily towards some of the claims that the foundations of Jehovah's Witness are based on, while diverting to Universalism in others. 

The Gospel is not a chronology of ancestry and history of the world, that is the first part of the Old Testament, the second is "the law". The Gospel IS the good news that God sent his one and only Son, Jesus Christ, to die a horrible death for our sin's. He gave us two directives that are above all others. One was a commission and the other was the two most important commandments of all and none of it was conditional upon nationality or culture. 

Not even Revelation divides culture or nationality from the fray. All will bow down and worship and All will be judged. 

In one brief sentence. What is your point?


----------



## hummerpoo

newnature said:


> These are sound reasonings though?



Men reason.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Newnature, I would like to know what your research is about. What is your purpose here? 
I understand there was a secret before Paul and that it was revealed to Paul. How does that work into your research? How did you come to pick the GON?
Is your research related to some type of school work?
What are you gaining from us as it relates to your research? Is it some sort of data on how we react to hearing of the secret revealed to Paul?

I understand your message about Paul and have asked about the secret as revealed to Paul. I've asked how was it before Paul. I've asked about the "age of grace" brought in by Paul.
I understand the message as you present it. I can see your point of view.
My problem is in your delivery. I don't know what you are trying to accomplish here. You aren't communicating properly as to show your purpose as how it relates to your research.


----------



## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> Newnature, I would like to know what your research is about. What is your purpose here?
> I understand there was a secret before Paul and that it was revealed to Paul. How does that work into your research? How did you come to pick the GON?
> Is your research related to some type of school work?
> What are you gaining from us as it relates to your research? Is it some sort of data on how we react to hearing of the secret revealed to Paul?
> 
> I understand your message about Paul and have asked about the secret as revealed to Paul. I've asked how was it before Paul. I've asked about the "age of grace" brought in by Paul.
> I understand the message as you present it. I can see your point of view.
> My problem is in your delivery. I don't know what you are trying to accomplish here. You aren't communicating properly as to show your purpose as how it relates to your research.



If a person hears Paul’s good news, and that person refuses to believe Paul’s message, choosing instead to believe that their works can add something, that their works can do something to do with getting them save, or keeping them saved, that person does indeed need to change their thinking, they need to repent. â€¨

All who are believing the messages presented by the ministers of righteousness today, they need to change their thinking and accept Paul’s message as being the truth in order to receive justification unto eternal life by being placed into Jesus Christ, so repentance, or a change of thinking is necessary in that sense, even in this age of grace. 

What about this change in thinking in Paul's message?


----------



## newnature

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Your research lacks anthropological connections and ignores validations set forth in Revelation. It blends old testament law with the good news, the Gospel (not Gospels) Your research is highly indicative of an approach an engineer would take towards reading the Bible, not a scholar. It is void of the Spirit and leans heavily towards some of the claims that the foundations of Jehovah's Witness are based on, while diverting to Universalism in others.
> 
> The Gospel is not a chronology of ancestry and history of the world, that is the first part of the Old Testament, the second is "the law". The Gospel IS the good news that God sent his one and only Son, Jesus Christ, to die a horrible death for our sin's. He gave us two directives that are above all others. One was a commission and the other was the two most important commandments of all and none of it was conditional upon nationality or culture.
> 
> Not even Revelation divides culture or nationality from the fray. All will bow down and worship and All will be judged.
> 
> In one brief sentence. What is your point?



The Body of Christ is a reality only for the saints who came to Christ through Paul’s good news, and have nothing whosoever to do with the saints of the earthly kingdom calling.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

newnature said:


> The Body of Christ is a reality only for the saints who came to Christ through Paul’s good news, and have nothing whosoever to do with the saints of the earthly kingdom calling.



When did you receive salvation?


----------



## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> Where's Centerpin when we need him?



Sorry.  I've been busy, and I missed the Bat Signal. 

Seriously, though -- this forum jumped aboard the Crazy Train some time ago.

May God have mercy on any new believer who wanders into some of these threads.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

centerpin fan said:


> Sorry.  I've been busy, and I missed the Bat Signal.
> 
> Seriously, though -- this forum jumped aboard the Crazy Train some time ago.
> 
> May God have mercy on any new believer who wanders into some of these threads.



I wouldn't wish this thread on an Atheist...


----------



## newnature

Miguel Cervantes said:


> When did you receive salvation?



I know God allowed all kinds of things into my live, which he uses to strip me of my personal sense of worth.


----------



## centerpin fan

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I wouldn't wish this thread on an Atheist...



I hear ya ...


----------



## newnature

centerpin fan said:


> Sorry.  I've been busy, and I missed the Bat Signal.
> 
> Seriously, though -- this forum jumped aboard the Crazy Train some time ago.
> 
> May God have mercy on any new believer who wanders into some of these threads.



We can thank God that we do not have to pray, deliver us from that anti-Christ, this is the manner in which the Israelites are to be praying during the period of the tribulation. â€¨

We are going to be delivered from this evil one before the tribulation even begins, because we are going to be caught up off of this planet to be with Jesus in the air, we are not appointed to the wrath associated with Israel’s tribulation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

So, what is this mystery revealed to Paul, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid?


----------



## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> So, what is this mystery revealed to Paul, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid?



Satan and his forces can do nothing about our identity in Christ (Helmet of Salvation), but if they can, they will cloud our perspective (Faith’s Shield) and dull our effectiveness in our ministry of reconciliation. No body loses control to Satan and his forces overnight; it is a gradual process of deception and yielding to their subtle influence.


----------



## Artfuldodger

If there are no more Jews and Gentiles why was a grafting in of  Gentiles to the tree of Israel necessary?

Romans 11:11
11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.

Romans 11:15
15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 

Why does it sound like Paul is telling us it took rejection by the Jews to allow Gentiles to be grafted in? Regardless whether we are talking about Israel the nation or Israel the Church, Paul makes it sound like it took the rejection of the Jews for Gentiles to receive salvation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ephesians 2:12-14
remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,

Was there a time that Gentiles were separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth?

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Romans 11:25-26
25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-- that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 

Did God harden the heart of the Jews to allow the grafting in of the Gentiles? Why does it sound like this is what Paul is saying?
It sounds like this rejection from the Jews was somehow needed in order for Gentiles to be grafted in and that there was a time Gentiles were separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth?


----------



## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> If there are no more Jews and Gentiles why was a grafting in of  Gentiles to the tree of Israel necessary?
> 
> Romans 11:11
> 11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.
> 
> Romans 11:15
> 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead?
> 
> Why does it sound like Paul is telling us it took rejection by the Jews to allow Gentiles to be grafted in? Regardless whether we are talking about Israel the nation or Israel the Church, Paul makes it sound like it took the rejection of the Jews for Gentiles to receive salvation.



The Israelites leadership did indeed rejected it. From the time that God sent Moses to deliver them from their Egyptian captivity, Israel was give things to see, to witness for themselves in order to visually verify God’s presence and his purpose with them, yet, for all the visual evidences that God gave to Israel, Israel would not believe God.

As to the “seven lamp-stands,” ought not this expression at once to send our thoughts back to the one golden lamp-stand of the Tabernacle, one lamp-stand with seven lamps, indicative of Israel’s unity in the Land and in the City. â€¨

Here, the scattered condition of the nation is just as distinctly indicated by the fact that the seven lamps are no longer united in one lamp-stand. The nation is no longer in the Land, for Jerusalem is not now the center; but the people are “scattered” in separate communities in various cities in Gentile lands. â€¨

So that just as the one lamp-stand represents Israel in its unity, the seven lamp-stands represent Israel in its dispersion; and tells us that Yahweh is about to make Jerusalem again the center of his dealings with the earth. We find nothing in our Pauline letters that fits into what is said to these assemblies.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Romans 11:7-8
What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,
8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."

Romans 11:12
But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

It was the Jews loss that meant riches for the Gentiles. Their rejection brought reconciliation to the world.

How does all of this rejection by the Jews work in with the redeeming blood of Jesus on the cross? If those who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ, what in the world is Paul talking about? 
What great mystery did he reveal? I don't get it.


----------



## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> Ephesians 2:12-14
> remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.14For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
> 
> Was there a time that Gentiles were separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth?
> 
> Ephesians 3:6
> This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
> 
> Romans 11:25-26
> 25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-- that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
> 
> Did God harden the heart of the Jews to allow the grafting in of the Gentiles? Why does it sound like this is what Paul is saying?
> It sounds like this rejection from the Jews was somehow needed in order for Gentiles to be grafted in and that there was a time Gentiles were separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth?



The Gentiles were never promised a particular territory upon earth as an everlasting possession, only Israel had been given that promise, they were promised a messiah. The gentiles were never promised a messiah. So what if you happened to be a Gentile living during the time when Israel had been promised a land and an earthly kingdom in that land and a king to rule in that land? Yahweh made provision for the Gentiles of time past by allowing them to convert to the tribe of Israel. â€¨

In order to be identified with the people of Yahweh, with Yahweh’s nation which was Israel, a Gentile would have to identify himself with the covenant under which Yahweh was operating with Israel. It was called taking hold of the covenant. A Gentile, by taking hold of the covenant was saying that he was willingly placing himself under all of Israel’s covenant requirements. It would include taking hold of all of the law requirements after the law was handed down to the nation Israel.  â€¨

One of the commandments given to Israel even before the Law of Moses was handed down at Mt. Sinai, was the commandment of circumcision, which was the physical sign of the covenant Yahweh made with Abraham. That requirement remained firmly set in place, when it came to a Gentile who wanted to become an Israelite. Circumcision was the physical sign of being in relationship to the covenant Yahweh made with Abram and that physical distinction separated Israel from all the other nations of the earth. In order to become an Israelite, a person had to be obedient to the requirement of physical circumcision or be married to a man who was willing to fulfill that requirement.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Romans 11:17
If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,

Paul goes on and on. It took rejection by the non-elect Jews who God gave a spirit of stupor too in order for others to share the nourishing sap of the holy root.

The way Paul talks, their rejection means that GRACE has come to Gentiles too  but I've  always heard that Jesus died for everyone.                                                                                                                                                                                                                             "The hardening of the Jews became the means through which the Gentiles are saved."
 I thought Gentiles were saved by the means of Jesus dying on a cross.


----------



## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 11:7-8
> What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,
> 8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."
> 
> Romans 11:12
> But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
> 
> It was the Jews loss that meant riches for the Gentiles. Their rejection brought reconciliation to the world.
> 
> How does all of this rejection by the Jews work in with the redeeming blood of Jesus on the cross? If those who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ, what in the world is Paul talking about?
> What great mystery did he reveal? I don't get it.



By going back to the prophet Isaiah, Jesus revealed to his apostles that the blood of the second Adam was the basis by which Israel’s Kingdom program and Israel’s New Covenant could continue on. Remission of sins, the complete clearing away of Israel’s sin debt could now be accomplished just as Jeremiah, Israel’s New Covenant Prophet had proclaimed. Once the sanctuary is purged, the offerer has settled his debt, he’s repaired the damage he caused. He’s fully atoned, and Yahweh is no longer repelled by the impurity that marred his sanctuary. â€¨

On the day of atonement, a purification sacrifice is brought on behalf of the community to purify the sanctuary of the impurities that have been caused by Israel’s sin. And the high priest loads all of the sins and impurities of the Israelites on the head of a goat, which then carries them off into the wilderness away from the sanctuary. Every sin pollutes the sanctuary; it may not mark the sinner, but, it does mark the sanctuary. It scars the face of the sanctuary. â€¨

Matt. 27:51, the earthquake that fractured the rock opened a fissure that ran down through 20 foot of solid rock into a cave and cracked the stone lid on top of a black stone volt where the Ark of the Covenant lie hidden inside, pushing the lid aside. John 19:34, the blood that poured from the side of Jesus, ran down through that crevice and dripped onto the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant that was hidden by God and the prophet Jeremiah, right under where they crucified Jesus, 620 years earlier when the Babylonians destroyed Salomon’s temple. â€¨

The Greek word used for “the cross” on which Jesus was put to death is “stauros,” which denotes an upright pale or stake. It never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but always of one piece alone. There is nothing in the Greek of the New Testament even to imply two pieces of timber. The blood of Jesus would do no good for the Israelites dripping on “stauros,” because the second Adam’s blood was the basis by which Yahweh would now have just cause to remit or to clear the accounts of those with faith in time past, those who had trusted Yahweh’s word to them and who obeyed what Yahweh told them to do. â€¨

According to Israel’s New Covenant, when would Yahweh finish what forgiveness alone would not accomplish where Israel’s sins were concerned? When would the forgiveness come? At what time would Yahweh completely clear the slate for Israel nationally-those believers who had been baptized according to John the Baptizer’s program? The blood of the second Adam would make it possible


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## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 11:17
> If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
> 
> Paul goes on and on. It took rejection by the non-elect Jews who God gave a spirit of stupor too in order for others to share the nourishing sap of the holy root.



If Israel was to regain her land, she would have to make that confession Leviticus 26 called for. And John came offering them, soliciting that confession from the nation. When Jesus comes on the scene; Israel’s Messiah is present among them, and Jesus preaches the same message as John the Baptizer. Nothing new has begun, Israel is still being called upon to make that confession concerning their failure under the law contract. â€¨

Yahweh’s salvation of his people from Egypt, not the Christian sense of personal salvation from sin; that’s anachronistically read back into the Hebrew Bible. It’s not there. Salvation in the Hebrew Bible does not refer to an individual's deliverance from a sinful nature. This is not a concept that is found in the Hebrew Bible. Salvation refers instead, to the concrete, collective, communal salvation from national suffering and oppression, particularly in the form of foreign rule of enslavement. â€¨

Israel’s descent to Egypt sets the stage for the rise of a pharaoh who, didn’t know Joseph, and all that he had done for Egypt. And this new pharaoh will enslave the Israelites, and so embitter their lives, that their cry will rise up to heaven. Yahweh as Israel’s redeemer and savior, is Yahweh’s physical deliverance of the nation from the hands of her foes. But the physical redemption of the Israelites is going to reach its climax in the covenant that will be concluded at Sinai. â€¨

Yahweh’s redemption of the Israelites, is a redemption for a purpose, for at Sinai, the Israelites will become Yahweh’s people, bound by a covenant. The covenant concluded at Sinai is referred to as the Mosaic covenant. The Mosaic covenant differs radically from the Noahide and the patriarchal covenants, because here Yahweh makes no promises beyond being the patron or protector of Israel; and also, in this covenant, he set terms that require obedience to a variety of laws and commandments. â€¨

The Mosaic covenant is neither unilateral, it’s a bilateral covenant, involving mutual, reciprocal obligations, nor is it unconditional like the other two. It is conditional; the first bilateral, conditional covenant. If Israel doesn’t fulfill her oblations by obeying Yahweh’s torah, his instructions, and living in accordance with his will, as expressed in the laws and instruction, then Yahweh will not fulfill his obligation of protection and blessing towards Israel. â€¨

So the Mosaic covenant, understanding of the relationship between Yahweh and Israel; the history of Israel will be governed by this one outstanding reality of covenant. Israel’s fortunes will be seen to ride on the degree of its faithfulness to this covenant. The nature of the biblical text, it reflects a range of perceptions about Yahweh and his relation to creation and to Israel. Understanding the making sense of the historical odyssey of the nation of Israel in covenant with Yahweh-that is its concern.


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## newnature

Grace within a dispensation was one thing, a dispensation characterized solely by grace is something else altogether. Grace is the foundation on which Paul’s entire ministry was built, and grace covers all the bases for the believer’s life. There is a glory that belongs to God’s grace, and it is to be praised on the bases on what God’s grace has accomplished. â€¨

Paul had been given special divine authority with the understanding that he is our apostle, and that authority carried with it the details of what God expects people to believe today, concerning the salvation Jesus Christ purchased for them with his sacrifice. â€¨

Therefore, God in his infinite wisdom devised a plan whereby he could take the very faith belonging to his son, along with its resultant faithfulness, and credit that faith and faithfulness to the account of those who believe. It is Christ’s faith that is freely credited to the account of the one who believes the good news message given to the apostle Paul to proclaim to us in this age of grace. â€¨

Paul wants us to know how a person is saved. He wants us to understand the basis by which God provides eternal security, not only has provided the gift of salvation; but provides eternal security to all those who place their faith in what the sacrifice of his son accomplished. It is our faith in the accomplishment of Jesus Christ’s faithful sacrifice that is the means whereby God acknowledges that we have accepted the gift his son purchased.


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## Artfuldodger

“having no hope"
“strangers from the covenants of promise. ... and without God in the world"
"That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel"

Gentiles had to be grafted in. It's that simple.


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## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> “having no hope"
> “strangers from the covenants of promise. ... and without God in the world"
> "That at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel"
> 
> Gentiles had to be grafted in. It's that simple.




Anyone who has ever lived in this age of grace is grafted into this tree. There are those who mistakenly suppose that reconciliation is the same thing as justification. These people have jumped to the conclusion that Jesus Christ taking the sin issue off the table of God’s justice through his becoming sin for the human race is that which makes a person as righteous as God; they have mistaken reconciliation for justification.

What is going to get a person cut out of this tree, is unbelief. Unbelief about justification. So this statement is true, God has kept the fingerprints of the guilt-worthy off of the righteousness he designed for the guilt-worthy.


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## Artfuldodger

"Anyone who has ever lived in this age of grace is grafted into this tree."

Does this mean that everyone is born  grafted in and must become unbelievers? It takes unbelief to be "cut out?" 
What about all of the Gentiles that have never heard the Gospel? Would you consider them "unbelievers?" When did they become unbelievers? Was it when their parents taught them the religion of pagans?
Does one have to hear the Gospel before his is considered an unbeliever?  Does a Gentile have to reject the Gospel before he is cut our of this tree? 
If every Gentile born within the "Age of Grace" is grafted in and it takes unbelief to be removed?

Romans 15:20-22
20And thus I aspired to preach the gospel, not where Christ was already named, so that I would not build on another man's foundation; 21but as it is written, "THEY WHO HAD NO NEWS OF HIM SHALL SEE, AND THEY WHO HAVE NOT HEARD SHALL UNDERSTAND." 22For this reason I have often been prevented from coming to you;


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## newnature

Artfuldodger said:


> "Anyone who has ever lived in this age of grace is grafted into this tree."
> 
> Does this mean that everyone is born  grafted in and must become unbelievers? It takes unbelief to be "cut out?"
> What about all of the Gentiles that have never heard the Gospel? Would you consider them "unbelievers?" When did they become unbelievers? Was it when their parents taught them the religion of pagans?
> Does one have to hear the Gospel before his is considered an unbeliever?  Does a Gentile have to reject the Gospel before he is cut our of this tree?
> If every Gentile born within the "Age of Grace" is grafted in and it takes unbelief to be removed?
> 
> Romans 15:20-22
> 20And thus I aspired to preach the gospel, not where Christ was already named, so that I would not build on another man's foundation; 21but as it is written, "THEY WHO HAD NO NEWS OF HIM SHALL SEE, AND THEY WHO HAVE NOT HEARD SHALL UNDERSTAND." 22For this reason I have often been prevented from coming to you;



To get cut out of this tree means the issue at the Great White Throne Judgment will be those standing there in their own righteousness, and not in God’s righteousness. Now Satan is playing a cover up game with Paul’s message, it is because Satan has a desire to keep people lost. Satan has an obsessive compulsive urge to steal or rob, Satan is obsessed with pilfering Paul’s message. 

God knows whether there is a hidden motivation even to ourselves, hidden by our pride nature to look good before others; to appear knowledgeable before others; to somehow elevate self in relation to others to gain the praise of others, God knows the motivations of the human heart. Only if they die during this age of grace, but are they unbelievers? Their name will be in the book of life, God knows their hidden motivation. 

Still working on that Romans 15.


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## newnature

So this tree in Romans, reconciliation, everybody from Paul until God pulls the plug on this age of grace is in that tree. You are right, their's is the promise, and so on like you say. 

So a person dies in this age of age, is that the cutting off?What identity did the person die in, Adam (Adam in rebellion) or did the person die in the last Adam (Jesus Christ.)

Our understanding of the identity that Adam had before the fall (Childlike innocent,) that identity has been restored to us (Justification) that restored identity is the critical foundation for our belief structure and our behavior patterns.

Paul did not think the question of the status of the person between death and resurrection was a question that needed to be considered. The reason is that for Paul, those who die in Christ, their relationship with Christ is one of immediacy, because they have not awareness of the passing of time between their death and resurrection. 

A person dies in Adam, (Adam in rebellion) will be resurrected to this Great White Throne Judgement. But will all in tree get gather up to meet Jesus in the air? No. Those that remain in the tree are the Great Multitude (they have to wash their own robes) the rest face the Great White Throne Judgement. But their are still some in that tree that survived into that thousand years. Now this is a trip, so at the end of that thousand years Satan is let loose and all that gets burn up. No resurrection (End of Adam in rebellion.)


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## newnature

Christianity developed the notion of original sin. 

Extreme are the psalmist’s guilt feelings that he sees himself as sinful even before birth. Evil is a product of human behavior, not a principal inherent in the cosmos. 

It is the power of moral choice alone, that is Yahweh like and having that good and bad knowledge is no guarantee that one will choose or incline towards the good. The very action that brought Adam and Eve a God like awareness of their mortal autonomy, was an action that was taken in opposition to Yahweh. 

Yahweh knows that, that human beings will become like Yahweh, knowing good and bad; it’s one of the things about Yahweh, he knows good and bad, and has chosen the good. Human beings, and only human beings are the potential source of evil, responsibility for evil will lie in the hands of human beings. 

Evil is represented not as a physical reality, it’s not built into the structure of Eden, evil is a condition of human existence, and to assert that evil stems from human behavior.



But by virtue of being created in the image of God, human beings are capable of reflecting his character in their own life; animals possess none of these qualities. What distinguishes people from animals is the fact that human nature inherently has godlike possibilities. 

Omniscience, omnipotence, or omnipresence, none of these other divine attributes have been ascribed to the human race as part of the image of God. We have been created to reflect God in our thinking and actions, but the physical sustained by God and dependent upon him for our existence in this world and in the world to come. Developing a godly character in this present life, this will be our personal identity in the world to come. It is the character or personality that we have developed in this life, that God preserves in his memory.


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## RH Clark

newnature said:


> I know God allowed all kinds of things into my live, which he uses to strip me of my personal sense of worth.



I don't believe God allows in the manner in which I perceive you are using it. I believe that God only allows what we allow. Whatever we bind shall be bound and whatever we loose shall be loosed. Yes, God can and will use those bad things to teach and grow us, but he doesn't orchestrate every event in our lives. We are drawn away by our own lusts and enticed.

If I have mistaken how you used your statement, I apologize and please correct me.


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## newnature

RH Clark said:


> I don't believe God allows in the manner in which I perceive you are using it. I believe that God only allows what we allow. Whatever we bind shall be bound and whatever we loose shall be loosed. Yes, God can and will use those bad things to teach and grow us, but he doesn't orchestrate every event in our lives. We are drawn away by our own lusts and enticed.
> 
> If I have mistaken how you used your statement, I apologize and please correct me.



Well said. We ripe what we sow? Instead of insisting on the unity of the mind, we need to preserve the unity by taking the initiative to be the peacemaker in our relationships. Most of the ground Satan and his forces gain in the lives of the body of Christ are due to unforgiveness, and we are warned by Paul to forgive others, so that they cannot take advantage of us.


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