# Rough estimate on pines



## Ytka (Jun 15, 2016)

I'm looking to buy a small plot of land and have a few questions.

How much do you stand to make from 50 acres of planted pines over the course of a timber program. I know it's going to be a rough estimate, so I'm just looking for a ballpark figure. 

How often do they thin the trees?

How is scheduling for the thinning done?

Thanks


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## livetohunt (Jun 15, 2016)

I have been told that from the time you plant new trees, to the time they are all harvested you make about a 6% return on investment. This is in central Georgia. Not very good. The trees need to be set up on a controlled burn program and thinning schedule. The county forester would help you with all that information.


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## Ytka (Jun 15, 2016)

I'm completely new to this, so how much would be invested to plant 50 acres in pines? Or do you mean 6% of the land value?


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## livetohunt (Jun 15, 2016)

Ytka said:


> I'm completely new to this, so how much would be invested to plant 50 acres in pines? Or do you mean 6% of the land value?




 You would gain approx 6% return on the money you invest in pine trees. That includes the fees of planting, managing, and cutting/logging fees. Your income would be the money you get from having the trees cut/thinned over time...Your land value also goes up if you have mature pines as opposed to newly planted trees if you sell the property..If timber prices go up that 6% goes up too. And that 6% is just an average rough estimate, you could get a better return. Some forum members on here may be able to give you much more detailed information.


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## Ytka (Jun 15, 2016)

How much are you looking at for planting and management? I don't want to get into something with a big cost associated with the payout being so far off.


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## wildlands (Jun 15, 2016)

Need to talk to the local forester from the GA. Forestry Commission. They can let you know if there are any programs available that you might qualify for. This will help with the planting cost. You are looking at doing a thinning sometime between yr 15 and 18  depending on site and quality of trees. Then another around 24 and then clear cut and start over sometime between 30-34 again depending on how good the site was and if you keep the site burned thus keeping competition down. Once you learn how to conduct the prescribed burn you can do it yourself and save a lot of money. Forestry Commission can help you early on to conduct the burns at a reasonable cost.


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## T-N-T (Jun 15, 2016)

buy land that is fairly clear to start with then you can rake pine straw in a few years too.
This is better, faster, more often return on money.

BUT,  you will have to keep the trees mowed for several years until they get big enough to be raked.  7 years maybe?  I'm just throwing a number out....

But I have a cousin claims he clears about 7k off 15 acres of trees a year.  (long leaf pine)


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## Timberman (Jun 15, 2016)

No disrespect but the question you ask has too many variables to be answered


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## Ytka (Jun 15, 2016)

Timberman said:


> No disrespect but the question you ask has too many variables to be answered



What variables am I missing? This is one of those situations where I don't even know what I don't know. Would it help if I said to assume middle of the road management just to get a ballpark figure? What would basic management of the pines cost? Would it matter if it was entered into one of the timber programs? Would that affect the cost on my end?

The main thing is that I don't want to end up in a situation where it's $1000 here and $5000 there every year for the next 20 years. The money I'd make is less of a concern than what it's going to cost to make the money. 

I'm going to buy land. It's just a matter of whether the perks of having the planted pines is worth what goes into it.


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## Timberman (Jun 15, 2016)

If you have thousands of acres your return averages out to what an earlier poster mentioned. On small tracts it is very dependent on site quality, seedling and site prep quality, and proximity to mills.


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## GDAWG84 (Jun 15, 2016)

Look at it like this: $300-350/acre for the initial site prep and planting costs. As mentioned previously, there are some cost share programs that you can enroll in to offset some of this cost. You can also save some money by doing some of this work yourself if you have the equipment and know-how. 
  Your first thin will come around age 15 depending on the trees and the site. I usually figure on about a load per acre on these thins. Maybe $250/acre depending on the above mentioned variables plus market prices. I think this is your most important thin because what you do now determines the outcome of all future thins in this stand.
   The second thin is where things start getting tricky. This one usually occurs 5-10 years after the first thinning. There are so many variables here that I'd hate to throw a figure out there but $500/acre seems about average.
   Finally, clear cut usually occurs somewhere around age 35. Most models put the economic maturity of planted pines somwhere between 35-40. There is no estimating a revenue figure for this. I've seen a 50ac clear-cut sale for as high as $70,000 and as low as $10,000. It's all got to do with site, species, and how it was treated up to this point. Keep in mind that these are very rough estimates and are south Ga based.


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## Ytka (Jun 15, 2016)

GDAWG84 said:


> Look at it like this: $300-350/acre for the initial site prep and planting costs. As mentioned previously, there are some cost share programs that you can enroll in to offset some of this cost. You can also save some money by doing some of this work yourself if you have the equipment and know-how.
> Your first thin will come around age 15 depending on the trees and the site. I usually figure on about a load per acre on these thins. Maybe $250/acre depending on the above mentioned variables plus market prices. I think this is your most important thin because what you do now determines the outcome of all future thins in this stand.
> The second thin is where things start getting tricky. This one usually occurs 5-10 years after the first thinning. There are so many variables here that I'd hate to throw a figure out there but $500/acre seems about average.
> Finally, clear cut usually occurs somewhere around age 35. Most models put the economic maturity of planted pines somwhere between 35-40. There is no estimating a revenue figure for this. I've seen a 50ac clear-cut sale for as high as $70,000 and as low as $10,000. It's all got to do with site, species, and how it was treated up to this point. Keep in mind that these are very rough estimates and are south Ga based.



Thanks for the help. How much of a difference does being in one of the cost sharing programs make in the cost? One of the properties we're looking at has been entered into one, but I don't know which one. We're still waiting to hear from the realtor. That property has a firebreak cut, but nothing else has been done. I know it is going to take some significant clearing before they plant, but I don't know if that has already been arranged. 

This is why I'm asking. I thought that once you were in the timber program, there wasn't a cost associated with the pines. I thought the timber company did the work and made their cut when the timber was sold.


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## Elkbane (Jun 16, 2016)

Here's the rough math, average site for Georgia (Site Index 65, base age 25), assuming loblolly pine. In general, over a rotation, at current prices, you can grow about $100/acre/year in wood :

Site prep can be $100/acre if there is little debris and hardwood scrub to clean up or $200 if the site is really trashy. Planting costs about $50/acre. Seedlings $60/acre.

Plant 600 trees/acre. At age 16, you'll have about 425 trees/ac (TPA) left. Thin to 225 TPA, you'll yield 28 tons removal and $220 revenue. 

Grow to age 22, you'll have 210 TPA left, thin to 100 TPA, you'll yield 35 tons and $425 revenue.

Grow to age 30, you'll have 94 TPA left, clearcut all, yield 98 tons, $2450/acre.

This is with average GA prices right now, $8.00/ton pulpwood, $16.00/ton chip-n-saw, $27.00/ton sawtimber.

Yields can vary based on your silviculture treatments and how you manage the property. You may need a $70/acre brush control treatment during the rotation if there is a lot of hardwood growing in the stand.

You need to figure in the cost of a consulting forester to handle your timber sales (8-10%) and severance taxes (about 3%).

That's about 9% BT net return on your investment in the trees crop alone, not factoring in land cost or taxes. That means if you want a 9% return on the whole shebang, the land has to escalate at 9% also (not likely) or it erodes the timber return.

Elkbane


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## Ytka (Jun 16, 2016)

Thanks for all of the replies. 

If the land is already in a timber program are you obligated to spend the money for burning, spraying, etc. or is does that just affect your return? For instance, could I do nothing except mow or burn enough to be able to hunt the land or is there a contract that says I'm going to do certain things at certain intervals?

The reason I'm asking is because I just want my own land to hunt. I don't really care about the timber. If the trees are just there and don't cost me much that's fine. I
I don't want any part in it if I'm going to be obligated to spend a lot of money.


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## Elkbane (Jun 16, 2016)

What do you mean by a "timber program"?  Do you mean leased by a timber company?  

You need to get whatever document describes the "program" and read it for yourself - don't take a realtor's word on what it says, and make a decision on whether you want to own the tract.

FYI - just owning land that isn't producing anything can get expensive.....if you aren't growing anything (i.e. increasing value), your return will be negative. All cost and no revenue = negative return, unless the land appreciates enough for you to break even.

Elkbane


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## Robert28 (Jun 16, 2016)

You've gotten some great info so far. As someone who is in the pine tree game, I have over 750 acres and about 600 are in planted pines. This was a venture my grandparents started and they never saw a return on their investment as they both passed away before the trees were ready to be thinned or harvested. I have reaped the benefits of being born at the right time as I have benefitted from several thinnings over the years but I've not gotten rich by any means. If I had 50 acres to play with, I'd be planting all sorts of different types of oak trees, persimmons, crab apples trees, find someone who deer hunts and sit back and get paid every year. Plus I'd hunt on it too since it's your land. Or, if it's decent soil, you can lease it out for crop farming and that goes for $75 an acre around here. Least you'll get paid every year with leasing it for hunting or farming.


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## GDAWG84 (Jun 17, 2016)

You need to more information on this "timber program"before we can help you. Most cost share programs run for a specific amount of time before the tract has to be re-enrolled. Most will pay about half of the per acre cost on cultural treatments practiced on your land. There are others on here more qualified to speak on those. As for your land and what needs to be done, you manage as intensively as you want. The way most timber operations work is like this: most landowners have a consulting forester to handle the actual timber work. The forester makes has the knowledge and practical experience to know what need to be when, such as when to thin, when to burn, release treatments etc. And most timber is sold on a one sale basis, i.e. first thinning, clear cut, etc.
 Meaning that each time timber is sold, it is re-bid on. Feel free to PM me with any specific questions you have and ill answer them as best I can.


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