# Invalid baptisms



## brutally honest (Feb 16, 2022)

“A Catholic priest in Phoenix has resigned from his position after a church investigation found he had been incorrectly performing baptisms over his 20-year career — rendering the rite invalid for thousands of people, accordingto Bishop Thomas Olmsted of the Diocese of Phoenix.”

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/catholic-priest-andres-arango-baptisms-invalid-phoenix-church/


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## kmckinnie (Feb 16, 2022)

It’s not there fault. Maybe everything will be ok on judgment day.


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## GeorgiaBob (Feb 16, 2022)

I read that yesterday, then looked at the response from the Vatican. All I can say is that, while I can agree that it is the Lord that sanctifies and protects the person who is Baptized, I simply cannot accept that our God would refuse that protection to anyone simply because some fool of a priest used a plural instead singular pronoun!

John probably spoke in Aramaic instead of Hebrew when he Baptized Jesus in the Jordan, but I doubt that God was bothered by the less formal language. For context, spoken Aramaic does not use pronouns so it wouldn't have been an issue 2,000 years ago. If the Roman Catholic Church is so caught up in one ENGLISH pronoun that they choose to claim that every Baptism by one priest is invalid, why don't they invalidate every Baptism ever, except those completed exclusively in Aramaic?

I got no problem with the RC Church dumping the priest. But I sincerely believe that the RC church has bigger problems than pronouns used in Baptism!

Idiocracy in vestments ! !


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## Spotlite (Feb 16, 2022)

1. “Father Arango misstated one word: "We baptize" should have been "I baptize.”


2. "The issue with using 'We' is that it is not the community that baptizes a person, rather, it is Christ, and Him alone, who presides at all of the sacraments, and so it is Christ Jesus who baptizes." 

Their logic is flawed. If they really believe that #1 was an issue because of #2 - unless Arango is Christ he shouldn’t even use “I”.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 16, 2022)

I've found that the One who immersed me into the Spirt of Christ had me enjoy Him in the celebration of water ... later. 
An understanding of Rom 6:3-5 also came later, yielding peace, hope.

The "I" was the washer, Jesus Christ.  
The "we" were the splashers of whom I'm grateful for nonetheless!


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## OwlRNothing (Feb 16, 2022)

Salvation isn't tied to baptism. I wouldn't expect the Catholic church to understand that though. So much of their beliefs are tied into dogma, ritual and man-made technicalities. It's a shame, really. Everything is written down, plain as day - but humanity has always found a way to make things concerning God more complicated than they actually are in reality. The Bible clearly says that Jesus is the way, not "baptism" is the way.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 16, 2022)

Christ will not be disappointed.


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## Madman (Feb 16, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> 1. “Father Arango misstated one word: "We baptize" should have been "I baptize.”
> 
> 
> 2. "The issue with using 'We' is that it is not the community that baptizes a person, rather, it is Christ, and Him alone, who presides at all of the sacraments, and so it is Christ Jesus who baptizes."
> ...


If his orders are valid then he is acting In persona Christi.


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## 1eyefishing (Feb 16, 2022)

Question from the layman (non-Catholic):
For the victims of the now unofficial baptism, is there ANY facet of life that would be affected by this other than their standing with the church?
I don't get why the fault is not forgiven and let the victims go on with their lives. Instead they have to be rebaptized.
I don't get it.


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## Madman (Feb 16, 2022)

The baptism is Christ’s to give, not ours.

Lot of good studies on the topic, Studies as old as the Church.


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## Madman (Feb 16, 2022)

But back to the actual baptism, it is easily rectified.  Anyone can baptize.


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## NCHillbilly (Feb 17, 2022)

So I guess all them folks will go to Hades now?


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## Throwback (Feb 17, 2022)

A good example of religion getting in the way


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## Spotlite (Feb 17, 2022)

Throwback said:


> A good example of religion getting in the way


Off topic but saw Popcorn as your Avatar. Met the dude a couple times. My Dad built two cabins in Maggie Valley, one Asheville and in one Boone. I had no idea at the time he was “famous”, though.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 17, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> So I guess all them folks will go to Hades now?


Some of them are already there.


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## Nicodemus (Feb 18, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Some of them are already there.




How do you know this?


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## gemcgrew (Feb 18, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> How do you know this?


It is inherent in that system of religion, but your knowledge of the system would have to be far greater than this one article. Even without that knowledge, it may be logically deduced, as seen in post #4.


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## Spotlite (Feb 18, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> It is inherent in that system of religion, but your knowledge of the system would have to be far greater than this one article. Even without that knowledge, it may be logically deduced, as seen in post #4.


But post 4 isn’t really arriving at “the logical or pieces of THE answer” as it appears to be. There’s more flawed than stated but out of respect for my RC friends some debates aren’t worth debating. 

Now, just give the man a straight answer as to how you know some of those folks are roasting - his understanding might be far greater than you imagine. Remember, the math teacher doesn’t ask the class the sum of 2 + 2 because the math teacher doesn’t know the answer.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 18, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> But post 4 isn’t really arriving at “the logical or pieces of THE answer” as it appears to be. There’s more flawed than stated but out of respect for my RC friends some debates aren’t worth debating.
> 
> Now, just give the man a straight answer as to how you know some of those folks are roasting - his understanding might be far greater than you imagine. Remember, the math teacher doesn’t ask the class the sum of 2 + 2 because the math teacher doesn’t know the answer.


Nowhere did I imply that he doesn't know the answer.


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## Spotlite (Feb 18, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Nowhere did I imply that he doesn't know the answer.


True. He’s just asking you how you know they’re roasting.

It was a question I hesitated to ask you myself, but how do you know?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 18, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Nowhere did I imply that he doesn't know the answer.


But how do you know some of them are already in Hades?


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 18, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> It is inherent in *that* system of religion,...



wow.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 18, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Some of them are already there.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 18, 2022)

This sorta reminds me of the denomination that thinks all are invalid except those baptized in the name of Jesus only.

What about all the folks years ago that were baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? I wonder if the Catholic Church ever used "ghost" instead of "spirit?"


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## gemcgrew (Feb 18, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> But how do you know some of them are already in Hades?


By knowledge of the system. This isn't a new occurrence. Baptism is vital to the system and it is centuries old. If you haven't already, go spend some time in their discussion groups. This is devastating right now to a lot of families that have lost loved ones, and now find their baptism to be invalid. Some are more strict on the matter than others.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 18, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> This sorta reminds me of the denomination that thinks all are invalid except those baptized in the name of Jesus only.
> What about all the folks years ago that were baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? I wonder if the Catholic Church ever used "ghost" instead of "spirit?"



Is anyone here struck by all the irony present in this thread: a bunch of "salvation by faith alone" arguing over "works".  Maybe those RCs aren't so misguided after all, because there's a lot of Protestant folks on here debating who's "works" works and who's don't.  I'm really misguided, because I kinda was under the impression it was a God decision known only to Him(Him being the only One who knows the individuals heart, the only One who forgives, you know, all that technical stuff), but then he was kind enough to show up and make a couple of posts informing us some systems are better and some have already perished because of this.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 18, 2022)

Has it occurred to anyone that the ONE person who we KNOW is in Heaven because Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, *today* you will be with me in paradise.” was never baptized.  Some of you may want to consider the implications of that before you make any further God-ly declarations: namely, God is God and you ain't.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 18, 2022)

I don't mind repeating it again.

Salvation is not in a system of religion, theology or doctrines. I am not aware of any one system being better than another.

Salvation is of the Lord.


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## Madman (Feb 18, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Has it occurred to anyone that the ONE person who we KNOW is in Heaven because Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, *today* you will be with me in paradise.” was never baptized.  Some of you may want to consider the implications of that before you make any further God-ly declarations: namely, God is God and you ain't.



Spot on God is God and he is not me.

As for the thief, are paradise and heaven one in the same?


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## Madman (Feb 18, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Is anyone here struck by all the irony present in this thread: a bunch of "salvation by faith alone" arguing over "works".  Maybe those RCs aren't so misguided after all, because there's a lot of Protestant folks on here debating who's "works" works and who's don't.  I'm really misguided, because I kinda was under the impression it was a God decision known only to Him(Him being the only One who knows the individuals heart, the only One who forgives, you know, all that technical stuff), but then he was kind enough to show up and make a couple of posts informing us some systems are better and some have already perished because of this.



I would argue that Rome is incorrect over the validity of the baptisms but it is for other reasons.

Before too many stones are cast at the Romans I would ask that everyone study 2000+ years of discussions, councils, and ALL of the Catholic denominations teachings on baptism.

It is very enlightening.

Or we could all sit around and throw verses at each other.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 18, 2022)

Madman said:


> Spot on God is God and he is not me.
> 
> As for the thief, are paradise and heaven one in the same?


Maybe not but did the thief have to stay in paradise because he missed out on a proper baptism? Is one offered a proper baptism in paradise or purgatory or anywhere after physical death to allow whatever works will be needed to make the transition to Heaven?


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## Spotlite (Feb 18, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> By knowledge of the system. This isn't a new occurrence. Baptism is vital to the system and it is centuries old. If you haven't already, go spend some time in their discussion groups. This is devastating right now to a lot of families that have lost loved ones, and now find their baptism to be invalid. Some are more strict on the matter than others.



I imagine it can be very devastating for those that have family members with “invalid baptisms” that have passed on. Hopefully they’ll find some answers soon.


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## Madman (Feb 18, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe not but did the thief have to stay in paradise because he missed out on a proper baptism? Is one offered a proper baptism in paradise or purgatory or anywhere after physical death to allow whatever works will be needed to make the transition to Heaven?


May not have been improper.  Baptism of desire.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 18, 2022)

Madman said:


> As for the thief, are paradise and heaven one in the same?



I'm a simpleton.  If Jesus is there and I'm there, be it paradise or heaven, I won't be splitting hairs.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 18, 2022)

Madman said:


> May not have been improper.  Baptism of desire.



IMHO physical baptism is like physical circumcision, they are physical acts that are meant to reflect spiritual actions or conditions.  It's the spiritual baptism (with fire?) that is significant as it reflects one's heart and thus one's salvation. Water baptism is symbolic of that spiritual baptism and reflects our obedience to Christ.


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## NE GA Pappy (Feb 18, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm a simpleton.  If Jesus is there and I'm there, be it paradise or heaven, I won't be splitting hairs.



my understanding of the Bible is that before the resurrection of Christ, all the saints were in paradise, which the Bible teaches was in the center of the earth.  When Christ died, he went to Paradise to set those captives free. (eph 4:8-10) and moved Paradise to where ever God is at this time. We know that because 'to be absent from the body is to be present with Lord' (2Cor 5:8)


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## NE GA Pappy (Feb 18, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> IMHO physical baptism is like physical circumcision, they are physical acts that are meant to reflect spiritual actions or conditions.  It's the spiritual baptism (with fire?) that is significant as it reflects one's heart and thus one's salvation. Water baptism is symbolic of that spiritual baptism and reflects our obedience to Christ.



water baptism is symbolic, but it is also a public proclamation that we accept the lordship of Christ.  He instructed us to be baptisted.  In doing so, we are confessing our decision to follow Christ and his teachings.  

Salvation isn't just praying the sinners prayer.  We are taught that we must believe that Christ is risen and we must confess that Jesus is Lord. (Rom 10)  It takes both intellectual knowledge and heart change to make Christ our Lord.  Lord means that He is in control, not us.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 19, 2022)

Is there a baptismal formula in scripture that says to use "I" instead of "we?" Maybe it's more of using "we" for "I" like the British do. Is either right? Why not say "you are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost." Or is it "Spirit?"
Then there is the thing on translating all of these old Biblical words correctly in hundreds of various languages and dialects to make sure the "wording" is within the bounds of the correct spiritual formula.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 19, 2022)

I don't know the real theological reasons why the "we" formula is not acceptable. But I can see that easily if "we" becomes a formula, I cannot baptize in all cases due need of another to baptize.  Or for example I cannot baptize if my "we" is of a philosophy which I have misinterpreted as theological. I cannot make this error by the use of I however. Or it is less likely.

In one case my union is a trinity where I and another, a person or an institution, unite with Christ to confer baptism. This  union can be unwholesome, misunderstood, compromised, and biased. It can also be innocent. On the other hand the baptism with the formula "I" implies union to one other Christ and no other. The person baptizing is united with Christ. The union cannot be contaminated by a third party.

Any competent Christian can baptize as single agent of Christ is my hunch. A second human reason or entity in the act makes baptism invalid. When I  as an individual baptizes another a total theological reality exists that cannot be compromised perhaps. The baptism from "I" implies that the baptism's validity is due divine revelation and without the possibility of even an innocent philosophical trip. Baptism is an act of grace and it cannot suffer  the condition of "we". The "we" formula implies a speculation which is unnecessary.

Perhaps, maybe.


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## 1eyefishing (Feb 23, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> Question from the layman (non-Catholic):
> For the victims of the now unofficial baptism, is there ANY facet of life that would be affected by this other than their standing with the church?
> I don't get why the fault is not forgiven and let the victims go on with their lives. Instead they have to be rebaptized.
> I don't get it.



 I've breezed back few through here a few times just to see if anyone could answer the layman's question. In a way understandable to the layman.
 Are there really people that think these victims souls will reside in Hades for eternity because their priest used the word 'we' instead of 'I' at their baptism?


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## Danuwoa (Feb 23, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> So I guess all them folks will go to Hades now?


Right?  So now they don’t get to go heaven because of a technicality?  The Lord doesn’t work the way people work.  This is ridiculous.


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## Spotlite (Feb 23, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> I've breezed back few through here a few times just to see if anyone could answer the layman's question. In a way understandable to the layman.
> Are there really people that think these victims souls will reside in Hades for eternity because their priest used the word 'we' instead of 'I' at their baptism?





> Are there really people that think these victims souls will reside in Hades for eternity because their priest used the word 'we' instead of 'I' at their baptism?



Yes there are, it seems that the ones most convinced are the Catholics themselves.


> in Hades for eternity because their priest used the word 'we' instead of 'I' at their baptism?



If they’re there, it ain’t because of this ^^^^

My question is why is it an issue; don’t Catholics pray for purification of those in purgatory?


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## 1eyefishing (Feb 24, 2022)

Do these Catholics think that the only people who make it to heaven are bonified catholics who have been PROPERLY baptized?


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 24, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> Do these Catholics think that the only people who make it to heaven are bonified catholics who have been PROPERLY baptized?



Pretty sure Catholics don't have that market cornered.  Most Christians are convinced there  is only one way and their way is it.  It comes from "Well I experienced God after "this" happened or I did "this" so that must be the right way."  It's a common error.


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## BeerThirty (Feb 24, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Pretty sure Catholics don't have that market cornered.  Most Christians are convinced there  is only one way and their way is it.  It comes from "Well I experienced God after "this" happened or I did "this" so that must be the right way."  It's a common error.



I think you are wrong. Most evangelical-free Christians DON'T believe that saying s special prayer and dunking yourself in water saves them. This is contrary to Catholicism, where they believe in ceremonial and procedural salvation. Baptism is merely a public display of a Christian's testimony and commitment to the Lord, nothing more.


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## Madman (Feb 24, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> Do these Catholics think that the only people who make it to heaven are bonified catholics who have been PROPERLY baptized?


No more than the Baptists, or Methodists, or non-denominationals.


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## Madman (Feb 24, 2022)

BeerThirty said:


> I think you are wrong. Most evangelical-free Christians DON'T believe that saying s special prayer and dunking yourself in water saves them.


Lot's of them I know would disagree.



BeerThirty said:


> This is contrary to Catholicism, where they believe in ceremonial and procedural salvation.


  What makes you say that?



BeerThirty said:


> Baptism is merely a public display of a Christian's testimony and commitment to the Lord, nothing more.



May want to consult your Bible on that one.


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## 1eyefishing (Feb 24, 2022)

Madman said:


> No more than the Baptists, or Methodists, or non-denominationals.


 Can't tell if ThAt ia an anawer to the affirmative or to the negative.


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## BeerThirty (Feb 24, 2022)

Madman said:


> Lot's of them I know would disagree.



Religion is complicated and no one is perfect. Believers can be misinformed.



Madman said:


> What makes you say that?



Because I was a Catholic growing up. And I have close family who are Lutheran. They believe saying three Hail Prayers rids them of sin. Just like they believe the physical act of dunking a newborn in holy water cleanses and saves. Again, more of an observation, but Catholics generally believe that what they "do" creates salvation.



Madman said:


> May want to consult your Bible on that one.



Don't have to. But if you'd like to provide an opposing argument, by all means, please do so...


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## Madman (Feb 24, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> Can't tell if ThAt ia an anawer to the affirmative or to the negative.


It is just an answer.


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## Madman (Feb 24, 2022)

BeerThirty said:


> Religion is complicated and no one is perfect. Believers can be misinformed.


  That is true.





BeerThirty said:


> They believe saying three Hail Prayers rids them of sin.


  No that is a mild form of penance, the sin is forgiven when one confesses the sin and asks for forgiveness



BeerThirty said:


> Just like they believe the physical act of dunking a newborn in holy water cleanses and saves. Again, more of an observation, but Catholics generally believe that what they "do" creates salvation.


Maybe that is why you are not catholic anymore, you didn't understand the faith. 

I am Catholic, and the Roman Catholic Church, of which I am not, not Orthodox Catholic, nor Anglo-Catholic, nor Coptics, believe any of that.




BeerThirty said:


> Don't have to. But if you'd like to provide an opposing argument, by all means, please do so...



I will provide a Biblical argument.

1 Peter 3:21 And baptism, which this prefigured, now saves you—not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


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## 1eyefishing (Feb 24, 2022)

Madman said:


> It is just an obtuse answer.



fify.


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## Madman (Feb 24, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> fify.


Holy cow.

Let me try to draw you a picture by rephrasing your question.

You asked:  Do these Catholics think that the only people who make it to heaven are bonified catholics who have been PROPERLY baptized? 

I will now respond this way:  Do these Baptists, Methodists or non-denominationalists think that the only people who make it to heaven are bonified Baptists, Methodists or non-denominationalists, who have been PROPERLY baptized? 

Catholics recognize dunking, splashing, sprinkling, any form of water, it is the protestant's who think they are the only ones with proper baptisms.


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## Madman (Feb 24, 2022)

Israel said:


> I would ask you about this, but only if you care to engage over it.


I will try


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## Madman (Feb 24, 2022)

Will someone please explain fify to me.


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## brutally honest (Feb 24, 2022)

Madman said:


> Will someone please explain fify to me.



“Fixed it for you”


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## Madman (Feb 24, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> “Fixed it for you”


Yeah.  I just looked it up.  Not much on acronyms.  My sons use them all the time.  BTW, etc.

Thanks.


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## 1eyefishing (Feb 24, 2022)

Madman said:


> Holy cow.
> 
> Let me try to draw you a picture by rephrasing your question.
> 
> ...


 Now you're answering my question with another question. I don't know the answer to your question.


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## Madman (Feb 24, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> Now you're answering my question with another question. I don't know the answer to your question.



Then let me be non-obtuse.
NO


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## 1eyefishing (Feb 24, 2022)

Madman said:


> Then let me be blunt.
> NO!


 Thanks. This is why I don't understand why the necessity for another baptization.


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## Madman (Feb 24, 2022)

Ok


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## Nicodemus (Feb 24, 2022)

Israel said:


> But I will be asking as the former recipient of more "Say 3 Our Fathers and 10 Hail Mary's" than I can presently number.




Perhaps if you would speak a language the common folks could understand rather that try to put yourself above everybody but the two or three you normally converse with, you might get a little respect thrown your way.

Otherwise, keep writing your paragraphs and dissertations that nobody but the few of you understand.

If you have a problem with what I`m saying, send me a PM. I`ll wait.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 24, 2022)

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.


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## Nicodemus (Feb 24, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.




My post applies to you too.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 24, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> My post applies to you too.


What is a man to do with that?


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## Nicodemus (Feb 24, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> What is a man to do with that?




See post #69,


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## gemcgrew (Feb 24, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> See post #69,


I quoted Scripture.


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## NE GA Pappy (Feb 24, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Perhaps if you would speak a language the common folks could understand rather that try to put yourself above everybody but the two or three you normally converse with, you might get a little respect thrown your way.
> 
> Otherwise, keep writing your paragraphs and dissertations that nobody but the few of you understand.
> 
> If you have a problem with what I`m saying, send me a PM. I`ll wait.



To tell the truth, after 3 or 4 sentences, I am as lost as a goose in a hail storm, so I pass those posts on by, shaking my head.


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## Nicodemus (Feb 24, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> To tell the truth, after 3 or 4 sentences, I am as lost as a goose in a hail storm, so I pass those posts on by, shaking my head.




It`s like they think they are impressing people. They are not. They are starting to get on the wrong folks nerves though.


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## NE GA Pappy (Feb 24, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> It`s like they think they are impressing people. They are not. They are starting to get on the wrong folks nerves though.



If they are trying to educate people or inform them, it ain't working.  It is a huge impediment to having a beneficial conversation


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## B. White (Feb 24, 2022)

I feel sorry for the poor man who stumbles into this forum in an attempt to gain some kind of understanding.


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## Jimmypop (Feb 24, 2022)

Pardon me....I though I had stumbled into the political forum again.


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## Nicodemus (Feb 24, 2022)

Israel said:


> Thank you. It is not really a doctrinal question...but more to do with certain perceptions...sensings, and if in the context of spiritual matters, might be considered spiritual.
> 
> I made my confessions, took my penance, and returned to my pew to "do them". And I did. For whatever years this practice was practiced, it was. I'm not trying to establish my creds, only that catechism was studied, communion attended to (first and those thereafter), confirmation "completed", and a catholic high school diploma secured. (how I loved some of the Marianist brothers who taught there, and "lay" men, too).
> 
> ...




Send me a PM, if you will, to explain this, because I don`t have the slightest idea what you are trying to say. Try to keep it under 30,000 words, if you can. 

And I am serious.


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## Spotlite (Feb 24, 2022)

@Madman …….for the folks that received an “invalid baptism” - what are the options for these folks and their families? Some have passed on. Can those alive get re-baptized??


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 24, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> Do these Catholics think that the only people who make it to heaven are bonified catholics who have been PROPERLY baptized?


In all fairness, there are plenty of Protestants who feel one must be baptized and with the correct formula. Some even make you get re-Baptized by the proper formula or in the "correct" Church, even if you have already been at a previous time.

The best I can find on your question is the Catholic Church does not believe you have to be Catholic to get to Heaven. I think their baptismal beliefs are similar that of the Baptists. 

I've noticed that most Protestant folks are a lot more liberal on what is required or not about the baptismal requirements etc. Except the Oneness group. They do believe one has to be baptized in the name of Jesus only instead of the Holy Trinity.


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## Madman (Feb 24, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> @Madman …….for the folks that received an “invalid baptism” - what are the options for these folks and their families? Some have passed on. Can those alive get re-baptized??


I don’t believe they were invalid, and IF the Pope believes they were, he has the ability to fix it, with a bull.

I am not a Papist, with that being said, this Pope, Bishop of Rome, is arguably the anti-pope.   

This had political reasons that, I pray, will never have the opportunity to play itself out.  I don’t believe it will, because God will always provide.


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## 1eyefishing (Feb 24, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> In all fairness, there are plenty of Protestants who feel one must be baptized and with the correct formula. Some even make you get re-Baptized by the proper formula or in the "correct" Church, even if you have already been at a previous time.
> 
> The best I can find on your question is the Catholic Church does not believe you have to be Catholic to get to Heaven. I think their baptismal beliefs are similar that of the Baptists.
> 
> I've noticed that most Protestant folks are a lot more liberal on what is required or not about the baptismal requirements etc. Except the Oneness group. They do believe one has to be baptized in the name of Jesus only instead of the Holy Trinity.



Thanks.
 So if the catholics believe that you don't even have to be Catholic to get into heaven, then surely they believe that you don't have to be properly baptized to get into heaven either. So why is the church telling the people that they must be rebaptized?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 24, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> Thanks.
> So if the catholics believe that you don't even have to be Catholic to get into heaven, then surely they believe that you don't have to be properly baptized to get into heaven either. So why is the church telling the people that they must be rebaptized?


That is a very good question of which I could not find a logical answer. It seems at some point one puts too much emphasis on a thing more that what the thing represents. Same as the Cross instead of Jesus. It could become Cross worship instead of Christ worship.


----------



## Madman (Feb 24, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> Thanks.
> So if the catholics believe that you don't even have to be Catholic to get into heaven, then surely they believe that you don't have to be properly baptized to get into heaven either. So why is the church telling the people that they must be rebaptized?


. 

This would be a non sequitur.  I don’t understand the connection or lack thereof, of being RC and going to heaven.

As for “rebaptized”, that is what they claim the problem to be, that they were never baptized to begin with.  Therefore their confirmation would be invalid as well as any marriages, in the eyes of the RC.


----------



## Madman (Feb 24, 2022)

Israel said:


> Thank you. It is not really a doctrinal question...but more to do with certain perceptions...sensings, and if in the context of spiritual matters, might be considered spiritual.
> 
> I made my confessions, took my penance, and returned to my pew to "do them". And I did. For whatever years this practice was practiced, it was. I'm not trying to establish my creds, only that catechism was studied, communion attended to (first and those thereafter), confirmation "completed", and a catholic high school diploma secured. (how I loved some of the Marianist brothers who taught there, and "lay" men, too).
> 
> ...


Israel,  much was said here. 

 I would like to respond in small snippets with your replies so as not to confuse myself, to respond on a keyboard as my finger moves too slowly.

Is my observation correct that after being brought up Catholic, even Roman, at some point it was brought to mind that something was missing?  Perhaps being taught that everything “religion” related was meant to mortify the flesh, all was penitential and meant to provoke a fear of some kind.

Yet it only allowed you a place to drift from the prayers, confessions, penances, to the places where youthful mind go when unbridled?


----------



## gemcgrew (Feb 25, 2022)

B. White said:


> I feel sorry for the poor man who stumbles into this forum in an attempt to gain some kind of understanding.


In this spiritual section of the forum, the believer is surprised when a man understands, not when he doesn't. The issue of understanding is addressed by Paul in 2 Corinthians and elsewhere. The default position of the natural man is, "I don't understand".


----------



## Madman (Feb 25, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> It could become Cross worship instead of Christ worship.



Or Bible worship maybe?


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 25, 2022)

Madman said:


> .
> 
> This would be a non sequitur.  I don’t understand the connection or lack thereof, of being RC and going to heaven.
> 
> As for “rebaptized”, that is what they claim the problem to be, that they were never baptized to begin with.  Therefore their confirmation would be invalid as well as any marriages, in the eyes of the RC.


 This is my point. It is a non-sequitur. It has nothing to do with any aspect of their lives outside of the church. It would be much simpler for the Pope/Vatican to just forgive the mistake instead of dragging everybody through baptism again.


----------



## Madman (Feb 25, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> This is my point. It is a non-sequitur. It has nothing to do with any aspect of their lives outside of the church. It would be much simpler for the Pope/Vatican to just forgive the mistake instead of dragging everybody through baptism again.



Thank you for your clarification.

Baptism is a vital sacrament in the Church.  May not be so easy as waving a wand.


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 25, 2022)

I was thinking they were the wand waving experts.
 They certainly layed down the edict on what can and can't be said during a baptism.


----------



## Madman (Feb 25, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> I was thinking they were the wand waving experts.
> They certainly layed down the edict on what can and can't be said during a baptism.


The RCs are not alone, I know a lot folks who lay down the edict about what can and can’t be said during a baptism, and how it must be done and who has a legit baptism.

Ironic the stones are all cast at Rome.


----------



## Israel (Feb 25, 2022)

Madman said:


> The RCs are not alone, I know a lot folks who lay down the edict about what can and can’t be said during a baptism, and how it must be done and who has a legit baptism.
> 
> Ironic the stones are all cast at Rome.


Till the enemy's strongholds are seen a bit closer to home...it's always easier to point out(wardly).

But man has a mind to be renewed...or is of no minding.


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 25, 2022)

Madman said:


> The RCs are not alone, I know a lot folks who lay down the edict about what can and can’t be said during a baptism, and how it must be done and who has a legit baptism.
> 
> Ironic the stones are all cast at Rome.


 But it is the RCs we are talking about here.
 Trust me, I have the same type of ironical curiosities surrounding  all of our formal religions.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Feb 25, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Perhaps if you would speak a language the common folks could understand rather that try to put yourself above everybody but the two or three you normally converse with, you might get a little respect thrown your way.
> 
> Otherwise, keep writing your paragraphs and dissertations that nobody but the few of you understand.
> 
> If you have a problem with what I`m saying, send me a PM. I`ll wait.



Yeah.  Like he's never heard that before.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Feb 25, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Out of the abundance of the ego the mouth speaketh.



FIFY


----------



## NCHillbilly (Feb 25, 2022)

I just don't believe that being dunked in water will send you to heaven, if such a thing exists.
Personal scenario: I was raised hardcore Baptist. When I was about ten years old, two preachers seized ahold of me and held me underwater in a big hole in a local trout stream until the bubbles nearly stopped coming up, while loudly repeating all the proper rituals.

About 45 years later, I haven't darkened a church door in decades except to go to a funeral. I cuss like a sailor, smoke like a freight train, drink like a fish, mow my yard on Sunday, and have no faith whatsoever in the organized Christian church. I have even been known to regularly unrepentedly dance and fornicate and play cards for money back in my younger days. I spent years playing the Devil's music in beer joints.

Now, when I die, am I gonna wake up in Heaven floating on a cloud and eating milk and honey, while these folks that suffered from a technicality during their baptism, but have maybe lived a pious life since then, wake up in Hades with the Devil poking them in the butt with a pitchfork?

Beliefs and cult-like blind adherence to rituals and arguing and infighting over the details like that is one thing that caused me to lose faith in organized religion, and come to firmly believe that one's religion is a personal matter between you and your Creator, no third-party administration required.


----------



## Nicodemus (Feb 25, 2022)

Israel said:


> I suppose I am not clear enough as to seeking such.
> 
> Why would you be concerned with what you think I should need...but care little for?
> 
> ...




Because the members of the GON Staff have to read everything that is posted. Whether we like it or not. That`s why. I don`t know if you should have a problem or not, but when it does get to be too tiresome, you will be the second to know.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Feb 25, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> I quoted Scripture.



Pat yourself on the back...... again.  It's, as has been noted time and time again, useless as teats on a boar hog if no one understand what you're saying.  May as well be speaking in tongues, but I suppose it make you feel special so there's that I suppose.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Feb 25, 2022)

Israel said:


> I suppose I am not clear enough as to seeking such.
> 
> Why would you be concerned with what you think I should need...but care little for?
> 
> ...



Perfectly ambiguous.  Well done.


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 25, 2022)

I believe there is a heaven for us unwashed folks also. (Yes I am baptized and saved.)
 I think I'd rather be in that one than the one with a bunch of folks who lived their lives on a tight leash while pointing at others, anyway.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Feb 25, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> I believe there is a heaven for us unwashed folks also. (Yes I am baptized and saved.)
> I think I'd rather be in that one than the one with a bunch of folks who lived their lives on a tight leash while pointing at others, anyway.


Amen. Welcome to the Owl Creek Gap Church of Universal Harmony.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Feb 25, 2022)

I'll baptize you into it the next time we go camping.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Feb 25, 2022)

If you don't get the reference, read Harry Middleton's "On the Spine of Time." Great book.


----------



## gemcgrew (Feb 25, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Pat yourself on the back...... again.  It's, as has been noted time and time again, useless as teats on a boar hog if no one understand what you're saying.  May as well be speaking in tongues, but I suppose it make you feel special so there's that I suppose.


It never returns void, it accomplishes. You are proof of that.


----------



## Madman (Feb 25, 2022)

Israel said:


> Thank you for this response.
> 
> If I proceed it is in hope that the things you have some grasp of, (of what I sought to establish) are clear. Which it appears you do, but I'm glad to answer further.
> 
> ...


Once again, so much there.

I understand the young Catholic, I was one and raised two.

Many today look for feelings and emotionalism where they feel a connection with their god.  

More later


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 25, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> If you don't get the reference, read Harry Middleton's "On the Spine of Time." Great book.


Yes, check our PM.


----------



## Madman (Feb 25, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> But it is the RCs we are talking about here.
> Trust me, I have the same type of ironical curiosities surrounding  all of our formal religions.


My point is that Catholics have a different view, Biblical view, of baptism, than most other Christian denominations.


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 25, 2022)

I understand. My point is that it only matters to their people in charge.


----------



## Madman (Feb 25, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> I understand. My point is that it only matters to their people in charge.


I would disagree.  It matters to a lot us who are not in charge.


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 25, 2022)

Whether or not a person's  priest said "I" or" we" would change your opinion of them?


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 25, 2022)

How would you even know?


----------



## Madman (Feb 25, 2022)

Israel said:


> But I am not seeking to contend against RC, nor am I a protestant, but simply a man who has been, and is being convicted of the righteousness of God seen in Jesus Christ. There is no _other rightness_ for man to see except in Jesus Christ, and no "other" thing given of God to man for his benefit than is in, and through, Jesus Christ. Mercy, forgiveness of sin, love, grace, life, peace, joy, eternal fellowship (His church), entrance to understanding...and I do not use etc. lightly here. And I dare not leave out tribulations, also.
> 
> Now when I consider prayer...or "praying" such as it was, as means of penance:
> 
> ...


I have had discussions like this with my sons, sometimes over a beer or glass of wine.

My branch of Christianity sees things so differently than much of the west.  Rome began abandoning the Latin Right around 1969 with Novus Ordo.  I would argue is was a sad day as it began trying to make the RC Church "relevant" to society.  If there is anything I do not want worship to do that would be to validate the culture.

Holy Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, is a Jesus book, it describes the need for Logos and the coming of the Logos and the solution the Logos brings.

I am Catholic in my worship and believe that it is an acceptable form to use before the Creator of the Universe.  

I believe the Bible, the creeds, Nicene, Apostles, and Athanasius, and Holy Tradition are the basis of the faith as it has been passed down since Christ instituted his Church.

Salvation belongs to the Lord and I have no say so in who is saved and who is not, all I know is what has been taught for 2000+ years, The Holy Scriptures as interpreted by the first 7 Ecumenical Councils, and the instruction and preaching of the bishops in Apostolic succession with the Apostles.

I have no desire to get into a verse vs. verse argument because I leave knowing exactly what I knew when I entered into it.  Holy Scripture needs to interpreted as an entire volume regarding God's redemption of his creation.

The Church has always taught that it is the responsibility of the Church to teach and Bible to prove.

I can talk of personal encounters with God, lives transformed, etc.  My protestant brothers have not greater, nor lesser, opportunity of salvation than me, and it is available for all who come to him.  God's desire is that all may be saved.

I have said all of that and will now say this; Christ started a Church and his Church has a purpose, the purpose is to teach and edify the saints until his return.  I believe that with all my heart, and if it is true, I want to be part of that Church and learn everything that it has taught and passed down.

The Church is not one man nor is it one group.  The Church has Christ as its head and he will return to finally redeem her one day.

There are many things I do not completely understand and therefore are taken on faith and my trust in the C

As for my denominations style of worship, including the sacraments, and teachings, it has only one purpose, to direct the people to God and his Son our Lord, Jesus Christ.

All the seasons of the Church calendar, including penitential ones, have the purpose of directing our attention on a loving and forgiving Father.

If I am saved it is ALL God, if I am not saved, it is ALL me.


----------



## Madman (Feb 25, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> Whether or not a person's  priest said "I" or" we" would change your opinion of them?


If this was being ask of me, I would say; 

In that area my opinion is about the same for all men, and my opinion is of no relevance in God's salvific plan.

So as not to be "obtuse", No a person's baptismal state does not concern me.


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 25, 2022)

Madman said:


> If this was being ask of me, I would say;
> 
> In that area my opinion is about the same for all men, and my opinion is of no relevance in God's salvific plan.
> 
> So as not to be "obtuse", No a person's baptismal state does not concern me.



But you said:

"I would disagree. It matters to a lot of us who are not in charge."

This implies you're one of "us".
Why does it matter to "us" ?

The religiously religious sure have a way of talking in circles.


----------



## Israel (Feb 25, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> To tell the truth, after 3 or 4 sentences, I am as lost as a goose in a hail storm, so I pass those posts on by, shaking my head.


Wisdom.


----------



## Nicodemus (Feb 25, 2022)

Israel said:


> Wisdom.




You have a private message.


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 25, 2022)

Israel said:


> What is a man to do with what would amend a man's words in form of a quote to make it appear the man said what he didn't?
> 
> Oh...that's right...a man doesn't have to do anything about it.
> 
> ...




FWIW- I took it' as a request, or maybe even a warning not to speak with such longevity as in post #94 or with such obscurity as post #124.

 But maybe others got a different meaning.


----------



## Madman (Feb 25, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> But you said:
> 
> "I would disagree. It matters to a lot of us who are not in charge."
> 
> ...


Baptism matters to us.


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 25, 2022)

Again, circular.

You juust said, "No a person's baptismal state does not concern me."

 You're making me dizzy.


----------



## Madman (Feb 25, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> Again, circular.
> 
> You juust said, "No a person's baptismal state does not concern me."
> 
> You're making me dizzy.



You asked if it would change my “opinion” of them not if I was concerned about their eternal location.

Opinion - view or judgment formed about something, or person, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

Now, do you understand?


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 26, 2022)

Well, you understand the question, but you still haven't answered it..
I'm done trying to understand you. Your logic carries no weight for me. Very unimpressed.
You avoided the answering every single question I asked.

If the only realm of life invalid baptism effects is with the church,  And the mistake was made by the church, not the parishioners,why doesn't the church just admit that they made the mistake? Seems like the church wants to bar these people from from spending eternity in heaven because of the church's mistake. Doesn't sound too much like heavenly love to me.
The power of the church must not be ceeded.


----------



## brutally honest (Feb 26, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> If the only realm of life invalid baptism effects is with the church,  And the mistake was made by the church, not the parishioners,why doesn't the church just admit that they made the mistake?




The RCC doesn’t see it as the church’s mistake.  It sees it as the priest’s mistake.

_… no one “even if he be a priest may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority”.

In fact, the Congregation asserts, “modifying on one’s own initiative the form of the celebration of a Sacrament does not constitute simply a liturgical abuse, like the transgression of a positive norm, but a vulnus [wound] inflicted upon the ecclesial communion and the identifiability of Christ’s action, and in the most grave cases rendering invalid the Sacrament itself, because the nature of the ministerial action requires the transmission with fidelity of that which has been received”._

https://www.vaticannews.va/en/vatic...itrarily-modified-formulas-are-not-valid.html


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 26, 2022)

The priest is of the church.  The church has put him in position to represent them. They are responsible for his interactions with the clergy IMO.


----------



## brutally honest (Feb 26, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> The priest is of the church.  The church has put him in position to represent them. They are responsible for his interactions with the clergy IMO.



Yeah, but he represented them incorrectly.  So, the church’s solution is to correct his mistake.


----------



## brutally honest (Feb 26, 2022)

_WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Out of "an abundance of caution," U.S. President Barack Obama took the oath of office a second time on Wednesday at the White House because a word was out of sequence when he was sworn in on Tuesday._

https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSTRE50L09A20090122


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 26, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Yeah, but he represented them incorrectly.  So, the church’s solution is to correct his mistake.


Yeah, I just still think the church should be responsible.
If a service company sends a representative out to my house to fix something and something goes wrong the company is responsible not that individual. I know the church is separate from the law.. And just like the state, they make their own rules. No ethical or legal considerations required.


----------



## brutally honest (Feb 26, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> Yeah, I just still think the church should be responsible.



The church is taking responsibility by saying they should be rebaptized.  That is the only “remedy” available.


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 26, 2022)

That's the only remedy they're making available.
 They make the rules.


----------



## brutally honest (Feb 26, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> That's the only remedy they're making available.



What else could they do in keeping with church tradition?


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 26, 2022)

Forgive the mistake made by the priest and/or let the baptism stand.


----------



## brutally honest (Feb 26, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> Forgive the mistake made by the priest and/or let the baptism stand.



Neither of those are in keeping with church tradition.

In the immortal words of St. Paul of Beatles, “You can’t reheat a soufflé.”


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Feb 26, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Neither of those are in keeping with church tradition.
> 
> In the immortal words of St. Paul of Beatles, “You can’t reheat a soufflé.”



that makes no difference. All the pope has to do is make a ruling, and since he is the dude on earth (according to the RCC) the dunkings would be kosher.


----------



## brutally honest (Feb 26, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> All the pope has to do is make a ruling …



The pope can’t change the sacraments.

From the link above:

… _The Second Vatican Council, in continuity with the teaching of the Council of Trent, declared it did not have “the authority to subject the seven sacraments to the action of the Church,” and declared definitively that NO ONE “even if he be a priest may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority”._

_(emphasis added)_


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Feb 26, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> The pope can’t change the sacraments.
> 
> From the link above:
> 
> ...



then all those he dunked and then they died are just poopie out of luck.  

I can see the priest now... 'Sorry, guys.  I shoulda said I, so now you have to spend your time in hades'


----------



## brutally honest (Feb 26, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> then all those he dunked …



They weren’t dunked.


----------



## brutally honest (Feb 26, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> then all those he dunked and then they died are just poopie out of luck.
> 
> I can see the priest now... 'Sorry, guys.  I shoulda said I, so now you have to spend your time in hades'



This argument has been going on for 500 years.


----------



## Madman (Feb 26, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> The priest is of the church.  The church has put him in position to represent them. They are responsible for his interactions with the clergy IMO.


Your opinion is incorrect, the priest is not the church.

The reason you don’t understand any of this is because you do not understand traditional Christianity and the Church.


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 26, 2022)

I said the priest IS OF the church, i.e. Belonging to it, representing it.

As for your 2nd statement, the subject and substance of this thread proves that I am better off for it.


----------



## Madman (Feb 26, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> I said the priest IS OF the church, i.e. Belonging to it, representing it.
> 
> As for your 2nd statement, the subject and substance of this thread proves that I am better off for it.


And so is the Church


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 26, 2022)

You are such an ambassador.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Feb 26, 2022)

Madman said:


> And so is the Church





1eyefishing said:


> You are such an ambassador.




hypocrites are everywhere, aren't they?


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 26, 2022)

I seem to be fine and square with God until the organizationals tell me I'm not.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 26, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> Yeah, I just still think the church should be responsible.
> If a service company sends a representative out to my house to fix something and something goes wrong the company is responsible not that individual. I know the church is separate from the law.. And just like the state, they make their own rules. No ethical or legal considerations required.


Would that company tell you they forgave the mechanic and now all is well with his work or would they have him or another mechanic "redo" the work?


----------



## Madman (Feb 26, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> hypocrites are everywhere, aren't they?


Why would the RCC be better off with someone who does not want to a part of it?  Please explain.

But maybe that is why there are so many Baptist churches in a town.  

Maybe they miss the verse: “I too am a man under authority.”


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 26, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Would that company tell you they forgave the mechanic and now all is well with his work or would they have him or another mechanic "redo" the work?


 Good point. Mine was that the company would be responsible for the fix, not the customer.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Feb 26, 2022)

Madman said:


> Why would the RCC be better off with someone who does not want to a part of it?  Please explain.



RCC doesn't make up all of the church.


----------



## Madman (Feb 26, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> RCC doesn't make up all of the church.


It makes up the church being discussed in the topic.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Feb 26, 2022)

Madman said:


> It makes up the church being discussed in the topic.




I forgot how little I care to discuss this topic. 

Thanks for reminding me


----------



## Big7 (Feb 26, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> hypocrites are everywhere, aren't they?


Yes.

It's entertaining for us Catholics to hear protestants tell us all about Catholicism.

What the majority of protestants know about Catholicism would fit inside a hydrogen atom.


----------



## 1eyefishing (Feb 26, 2022)

I freely admit that I am weary of organized religions. My mother used church as punishment for me until I was high school age and gone. I have the most experience with Baptist and Methodist denominations and am not completely ignorant of the church as  I was an intelligent absorber of the lessons and what was going on.
There were plenty of people who looked down their nose At those who didn't think as they did or who weren't as educated in their ways as they were.  Especially if you had questions. Many of the biggest hypocrites were in the front pews and the organization itself.
I haven't really found an exception with any church.


----------



## brutally honest (Feb 26, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> There were plenty of people who looked down their nose At those who didn't think as they did or who weren't as educated in their ways as they were.



Why let people like that chase you away?


----------



## Madman (Feb 26, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Why let people like that chase you away?


Never let Judas keep you from Jesus.


----------



## brutally honest (Feb 26, 2022)

Madman said:


> Never let Judas keep you from Jesus.



Exactly!

The old saying is that Satan’s most effective trick is to get people to believe he doesn’t exist.  I think he has a more effective trick:  the “plant a few hypocrites in every church” trick.  It seems to work remarkably well to demoralize believers and wreck their faith.


----------



## Madman (Feb 27, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> I freely admit that I am weary of organized religions. My mother used church as punishment for me until I was high school age and gone. I have the most experience with Baptist and Methodist denominations and am not completely ignorant of the church as  I was an intelligent absorber of the lessons and what was going on.
> There were plenty of people who looked down their nose At those who didn't think as they did or who weren't as educated in their ways as they were.  Especially if you had questions. Many of the biggest hypocrites were in the front pews and the organization itself.
> I haven't really found an exception with any church.


This is an interesting post, with a lot of accusations for someone wanting to tell a denomination how it should function.


----------



## Madman (Feb 27, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> hypocrites are everywhere, aren't they?


A person is hypocritical for AGREEING, essentially, that worship, the mass, is for believers, and that those with axes to grind may be better off, for everyone to learning a little more before dragging their dislike for a group into the group.

He has already accused his mother of using church as a punishment, why should anyone add to it?

Interesting stand.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2022)

Madman said:


> Never let Judas keep you from Jesus.


I don't think that is what 1eyefishing said.


----------



## Madman (Feb 27, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't think that is what 1eyefishing said.


Please translate.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Feb 27, 2022)

Madman said:


> Your opinion is incorrect, the priest is not the church.
> 
> The reason you don’t understand any of this is because you do not understand traditional Christianity and the Church.


If what the church is about is stupid stuff like the topic of this thread, I'm glad I don't understand it, because that would make me insane or immoral, one or the other.


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## Madman (Feb 27, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> If what the church is about is stupid stuff like the topic of this thread, I'm glad I don't understand it, because that would make me insane or immoral, one or the other.


Baptism is stupid stuff.

OK

Everyone takes a stand.


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## 1eyefishing (Feb 27, 2022)

Easy to see the same stuff IN HERE that goes on in the churches.
Tight leashes and pointed fingers.


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## brutally honest (Feb 27, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Personal scenario: I was raised hardcore Baptist. When I was about ten years old, two preachers seized ahold of me and held me underwater in a big hole in a local trout stream until the bubbles nearly stopped coming up, while loudly repeating all the proper rituals.
> 
> About 45 years later, I haven't darkened a church door in decades except to go to a funeral. I cuss like a sailor, smoke like a freight train, drink like a fish, mow my yard on Sunday, and have no faith whatsoever in the organized Christian church.





1eyefishing said:


> I freely admit that I am weary of organized religions. My mother used church as punishment for me until I was high school age and gone. I have the most experience with Baptist and Methodist denominations and am not completely ignorant of the church as  I was an intelligent absorber of the lessons and what was going on.
> There were plenty of people who looked down their nose At those who didn't think as they did or who weren't as educated in their ways as they were.  Especially if you had questions. Many of the biggest hypocrites were in the front pews and the organization itself.
> I haven't really found an exception with any church.



I'm beginning to see a pattern ...


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## 1eyefishing (Feb 27, 2022)

Yes, people not wanting to follow your pattern.
 That's a big problem for the ensconced.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2022)

Madman said:


> Please translate.


Quote; "I freely admit that I am weary of organized religions."
He didn't say the Church(Judas) was keeping him from Jesus. The Church(Judas) is just keeping him from the Church(Judas.)


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 27, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> Many of the biggest hypocrites were in the front pews and the organization itself.
> I haven't really found an exception with any church.



....and you won't inside or outside the church.  Truth be told, there isn't a man alive be he believer, atheist or agnostic that isn't a complete hypocrite to the very bone marrow.  Show me a man who hasn't or doesn't place himself above another man in some way, shape, form, or fashion.  Isn't that same man a hypocrite in doing such?  Hasn't he said in his heart, "You should be like me because I'm better than you?"  We've all done it and continue to do it.  If you say you don't or haven't you're a flat out liar and thus a hypocrite for lying about it: You've said one thing and done another.

How many times have I heard, "I ain't going to church.  They are all full of hypocrites." That's absolutely 100% correct.  There is absolutely no doubt about it: and so is Walmart, Home Depot, the grocery store and your house.  That don't stop you from going there.  You'll eat, shop, converse and sleep with a hypocrite, but you won't go to church with them, because you're 'better than that'.  Hypocrite twice over now....and counting.  The fact is you *should* go to church with all the other hypocrites.  It's slap full of folks just like you. You'll be right at home.  That's why I go to church: it's full of folks just like me.  When I get past being a hypocrite ya'll won't be hearing from me no more.  I'll be gone toes up, but thank God I won't be a hypocrite no moe.

The Apostle Paul wrote 13 books, or almost 2/3rds of the New Testament.  This is what he had to say about himself:

What I want to do, I don't do.  What I don't want to do, I do. I have the desire to do what is good, *but I can't do it*. I don't do the good I want to do, but the evil I don't want to do—and I keep on doing it. What a wretched man I am!

Like I said Brother,  You'll be in good company.   You can't get much better company than Paul.

The very best church is just full of a bunch of pigs yearning to be spiritually clean while continually fighting the physical urges to wallow in the mud.....with about as much success as one would expect from a bunch of pigs.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 27, 2022)

@NCHillbilly.  Your baptism story reminded me of a joke I heard.

The preacher was down in the creek that ran through the center of town one Sunday baptizing.  The town drunk stumbled by and the preacher stopped what he was doing and yelled to him, "You need to come on down here and find Jesus."  So the drunk stumbled down to the creek and waded up to the preacher.  The preacher seeing an opportunity that wasn't likely to present itself again struck while the iron was hot.  He grabbed the drunk and plunged his head under while praising God.  He pulled the drunk up and asked, "Did you find Jesus?"  The drunk yelled, "Naw!".  He quickly dunked him again and held him a little longer, again praising God the whole time.  The preacher brought him up and asked him again, "Did you find Jesus."  The drunk, obviously a bit startled, with a mix of concerned and confusion, answered sheepishly, almost as a question, "Naw?".  Under he went again and the preacher, exasperated and fearing an embarrassing moment in front of the entire congregation and the half the town folk who were watching the very public event, was yelling his praises to the tree tops. He held him under until the bubbles stopped coming up.  He lifted the floundering drunk out of the water and asked again, practically yelling in desperation, "Did you find Jesus?"  The drunk spitting, sputtering and coughing up creek water, wide eyed with fear as a near drowning man would be,  was finally able to catch his breath and said, "NAW!!!!  ARE YOU SURE THIS IS WHERE HE FELL IN?"


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## NCHillbilly (Feb 28, 2022)

Madman said:


> Baptism is stupid stuff.
> 
> OK
> 
> Everyone takes a stand.


Don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say. I didn't say baptism is stupid. I am saying that arguing over the technicalities of the wording used while performing the ritual, and saying that innocent people are now stripped of their salvation because of a word used or not used in a ceremony 20 years ago is stupid. To the extreme. Your mileage may vary. Organized religion can get to the point that it exists mostly to control folks through their fears and insecurities. I don't think you need the organized church and a bunch of politicians and administrators in funny hats to communicate with the Lord. I think he will listen to you just fine without all that pomp and circumstance and all the middlemen.


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## Big7 (Feb 28, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say. I didn't say baptism is stupid. I am saying that arguing over the technicalities of the wording used while performing the ritual, and saying that innocent people are now stripped of their salvation because of a word used or not used is stupid. To the extreme. Your mileage may vary. Organized religion can get to the point that it exists mostly to control folks through their fears and insecurities. I don't think you need the organized church and a bunch of politicians and administrators in funny hats to communicate with the Lord. I think he will listen to you just fine without all that pomp and circumstance and all the middlemen.



Part of that is true but the church has strict protocol, even down to the wording, on what is and what isn't valid.

Most folks don't know ANYONE can baptize ANYONE else.

I'm sure there was no ill intent replacing "I" with "we" and was probably either something the Priest didn't know or maybe a language translation problem.

What gets me about this thread is why are all these protestants so worried about what Catholics do.

They need to clean up their OWN backyard and leave MY yard to me.


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## 1eyefishing (Feb 28, 2022)

I don't think any protestant in here is worried about what catholics do.
 Everybody can have their own opinion.


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## Big7 (Feb 28, 2022)

1eyefishing said:


> I don't think any protestant in here is worried about what catholics do.
> Everybody can have their own opinion.



We disagree on the statement about "I don't think any protestant in here is worried about what catholics do." Plenty of that goes on in this board and not JUST this thread.

We agree about everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

And.. Just so you know, my parents had to get a special dispensation from the Catholic Church to even get married.

My Mama and her 3 kids, SIL and nephews are cradle Catholics.

My Daddy's entire side of our family is non- denominational Christian, which is still protestant.
My Grandmother was a founding member in their large church and "founder's hall" is named after her.

I know extensively both sides of the coin. 

I can assure you there are PLENTY of Protestants on this board that are worried about what Catholics do.

My very first post on here was regarding Catholic bashing. Actually, it was the reason I joined GON. I've seen it many times and I been on here for a while.


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## brutally honest (Feb 28, 2022)

“The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.” - Luke 18:11

The flip side to this is those who stand outside the church and say, “I thank God that I’m not like those hypocrites in the pews.”

Both extremes are wrong.  Be like the publican:

“And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.” - Luke 18:13


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## Madman (Feb 28, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Don't put words in my mouth that I didn't say. I didn't say baptism is stupid. I am saying that arguing over the technicalities of the wording used while performing the ritual, and saying that innocent people are now stripped of their salvation because of a word used or not used in a ceremony 20 years ago is stupid. To the extreme. Your mileage may vary. Organized religion can get to the point that it exists mostly to control folks through their fears and insecurities. I don't think you need the organized church and a bunch of politicians and administrators in funny hats to communicate with the Lord. I think he will listen to you just fine without all that pomp and circumstance and all the middlemen.


What some believe are “technicalities” others, like the Church, believe are vitally important.  This topic, invalid baptisms, should be fleshed out and all sides understood, and you have made your’s quite clear.

As for the “funny hat” remark, no one believes any mediator other than Christ is neccassary.

You are above the ad hominem attacks so I will ignore them.


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## NCHillbilly (Feb 28, 2022)

Madman said:


> What some believe are “technicalities” others, like the Church, believe are vitally important.  This topic, invalid baptisms, should be fleshed out and all sides understood, and you have made your’s quite clear.
> 
> As for the “funny hat” remark, no one believes any mediator other than Christ is neccassary.
> 
> You are above the ad hominem attacks so I will ignore them.


OK. That is one of the reasons I don't belong to an organized church. I don't think those technicalities are of vital importance. So, you say that no mediator is necessary, but you still say that the technicalities of the church are necessary for salvation?


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## Madman (Feb 28, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> If what the church is about is stupid stuff like the topic of this





NCHillbilly said:


> OK. That is one of the reasons I don't belong to an organized church. I don't think those technicalities are of vital importance. So, you say that no mediator is necessary, but you still say that the technicalities of the church are necessary for salvation?


no I didn’t, I said there are things that are “vitally important”.

I hate it that “the organized church” has been so terrible for some.  I just decided years ago not to let the few run me off.

I love the Church, it has been good for me and my family, I wish everyone could say the same.


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## NCHillbilly (Feb 28, 2022)

Madman said:


> no I didn’t, I said there are things that are “vitally important”.
> 
> I hate it that “the organized church” has been so terrible for some.  I just decided years ago not to let the few run me off.
> 
> I love the Church, it has been good for me and my family, I wish everyone could say the same.


Good for you, then.


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## Liberty in Christ (Apr 2, 2022)

Born again is by the Spirit of God. Why place your trust in H2O, that won't save you, it's a false Messiah and an idol.


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## Madman (Apr 5, 2022)

Liberty in Christ said:


> Born again is by the Spirit of God. Why place your trust in H2O, that won't save you, it's a false Messiah and an idol.


Christ did not teach that, nor did St. Peter.


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