# My kentucky rifle is ticking me off!!!



## telsonman (Nov 8, 2010)

Ok, so I go out to shoot it for the first time today. Many of you have seen my post about building it. 
Anyway, I had:
GOEX FFFg powder
Hornady 45 cal balls (.440)
CCI #11 caps
Pillow patches (.015)

The problem I was running into was seating the bullet mainly. When I put the ball on the patch(spit patch) then tried to push the ball down, it just wouldn't budge. I would literally have to beat the ramrod down to get it seated. It was really frustrating. I was running a cleaning patch down between shots, then running a dry patch. On about the 5th shot, the ramrod would not come out. I pulled on it with all my might, and it just would not loosen. I had to unscrew it and leave the jag in the bore, and then shoot it just to clear it, thus destroying my jag. I also had to cut my patches down to about half size to that it would go down easier, but it was still really tight. When I became so frustrated I just called it a day. I ran a cleaning patch of windex down the bore, and wouldn't you know it, it wouldn't come out. I had to get the wife to pull it one way, then I tugged on the rod with vice grips just to get it out, and even that wasn't easy. 

Can anyone tell me why I was having so much trouble trying to get the ball and patch down there, and why also just a cleaning patch and the ramrod got stuck?

I'm not giving up on this. I loved shooting it. A few caps took two strikes, but that wasn't a big deal to me. 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## flyfisher76544 (Nov 8, 2010)

Sounds like you might need a smaller Jag and Ball/Patch combo. Check Track of the Wolf out, you can get .437 or .433 round ball for under 10 bucks. Make sure you weren't double patching when you were loading, you shouldn't have to beat on the ram rod to load it. Good luck though, hope it works out for you.


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## tv_racin_fan (Nov 8, 2010)

If it loads that hard you got to large of ball or patch.
If the jag got stuck that is the same issue, jag can fit before shooting and still be to large. Where the heck is Jefferson? If it aint to far I'll drive down and take a look at it. Surely someone is willing to help if I aint close enough.


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## telsonman (Nov 9, 2010)

Jefferson is about 30 minutes north of the Mall of GA, up 85. 

I personally think the patches are too big. I'm thinking I need to get some .010 patches. I figure that if the patch was too big, then it would grab too tight around the ball, and grab my jag at the same time. 

I notice why when I put a cleaning patch down the bore and it got stuck, it was because since I had lost the jag, I put just the ram tip on the rod, and its wider than the jag. 

So is it agreed that the patches are too big?


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## tv_racin_fan (Nov 9, 2010)

Where do you go to shoot???

They'd have to be pretty dang big to do that I would think.

Sounds more like ya got a tight bore. Not a thing wrong with that at all either.


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## fishfryer (Nov 9, 2010)

telsonman,I'm really sorry you're having problems with your rifle.Get some hot water down that bore,if you haven't cleaned it good already.You mentioned swabbing with windex or trying to clean with windex,just don't leave that bore uncleaned.If you have dial caliper,recheck ball diameter and patch thickness.In other words eliminate all the obvious problems first.Get some pillow ticking or other cotton,linen,or natural fiber that will give you a loose fit of ball and patch and build some confidence in loading.Don't worry too much about accuracy at first,just get the mechanics down.I don't know where to tell you to go,unless it's Deercreek Gunshop in Marietta,that's the only place I've ever been in Atlanta area.They should have an assortment of roundball,you can find patch material at fabric stores.If some of the men who posted already can look at your problem,that's your best bet.Don't give up,it'll be fun yet.


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## tv_racin_fan (Nov 9, 2010)

Telson I can drive that far if you have a handy place to shoot
or we could try Wilson Shoals...up in Banks co. Guess my mind had an issue, I know where Jefferson is.. You have got to have a ball or patch much to large or you got bad fouling and didn't swab to cause this issue.


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## Whiteeagle (Nov 9, 2010)

Had same problem many years ago when starting out im ml shooting. Solved problem when old buddy showed me the math. Ball=.440, patch=.015 total=.455. Bore= .450. Try thinner patch and use rammer on end of ramrod instead of cleaning jag to seat prb. Hope this helps you as much as it did me about 40 yrs ago.        Whiteeagle


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## trial&error (Nov 9, 2010)

I didn't read your build, but I assume your jag actually says 45 on it and your barrel has 45 stamped on it?  If so pull out the micrometer and measure the lead and barrel just to be sure.  There's hundreds of sizes of lead and company may have made a mistake.


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## dawg2 (Nov 9, 2010)

Even if the patch was too thick or the ball too big:  I don't understand why the jag got stuck


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## telsonman (Nov 9, 2010)

dawg2 said:


> Even if the patch was too thick or the ball too big:  I don't understand why the jag got stuck



You're preaching to the choir. I can't understand it. I wish there was some place here in the NE that had a ton of ML stuff. 

I'm going to get some thinner patches and try again. Again, I loved shooting it, when it would shoot. So I'm not giving up.

I cleaned it last night with soap and hot water, then ran some windex patches through it with a centerfire cleaning rod best I could. 

tv_racin_fan, I shoot at the Athens Rifle Club. Its a private club, so I can go there anytime. I'll try the thinner patches, then let you know how it works out, assuming I don't kill myself in the frustration. If I can't find patches, then I'll order them.


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## SASS249 (Nov 9, 2010)

Good luck, I know it can be a little frustrating.  No real need to order patches, just go t a fabric store and look at the cotton fabrics.  

The actual bore can vary a good bit on some of these imported rifles.  Just because everybody says shoot a 0.015 patch your rifle may not allow it.  It is easier to adjust your patch thickness than to try to get odd sized roundballs.  Thin patches work well in some rifles.  One of my 50 cal shoots a .495 roundball with a very thin patch great.  It hardly groups using a .490 and a 0.015 patch.  You just have to work with it some.

Regarding your jag getting stuck.  Sounds like more indication that you have a tight bore.  If you have a pretty fouled bore a windex soaked patch on a tight jag can get stuck in a heartbeat.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Nov 9, 2010)

Have you been to this forum?
http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showforum.php?fid/17/

Seems to be a lot of knowledgable folks there on the topic.


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## flyfisher76544 (Nov 9, 2010)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Have you been to this forum?
> http://www.muzzleloadingforum.com/fusionbb/showforum.php?fid/17/
> 
> Seems to be a lot of knowledgable folks there on the topic.



You a member over there too?


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## telsonman (Nov 9, 2010)

If I go to a fabric store, how will I know how thick some of the fabric is? I'm sure its not labeled, ".010 thick" etc. Also, whats the diameter of a patch for a 45 cal?


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## tv_racin_fan (Nov 9, 2010)

flyfisher76544 said:


> You a member over there too?


 
I is...


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## flyfisher76544 (Nov 10, 2010)

tv_racin_fan said:


> I is...



Same here....

As far as going to the fabric store and figuring out the thickness, well I would say ask the folks there. Unless you have a caliper handy. Don't mind the stares  though..lol


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## tv_racin_fan (Nov 10, 2010)

telsonman said:


> If I go to a fabric store, how will I know how thick some of the fabric is? I'm sure its not labeled, ".010 thick" etc. Also, whats the diameter of a patch for a 45 cal?


 
As I recall it was listed on the bolts of fabric I checked out at Wal Mart when I was thinking about buying some. Wish I had now as they remodeled and no longer sell fabric.


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## SASS249 (Nov 10, 2010)

Something else just came to mind.  You indicated you used pillow ticking patches.  Did you wash the cloth first to get rid of the sizing?  If not, pillow ticking will be semi-moisture resistant and will contribute to not cleaning out the fouling.  Any fabric you buy for patches you need to run through  a washing machine before using.

As far as knowing the thickness of fabric at the fabric store, all I would do is take some of the patch material you are now using and just make sure you try something thinner.  Cloth is cheap and if it does not work for shooting will always work for cleaning.


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## Flintrock (Nov 10, 2010)

telsonman said:


> The problem I was running into was seating the bullet mainly. When I put the ball on the patch(spit patch) then tried to push the ball down, it just wouldn't budge. I would literally have to beat the ramrod down to get it seated. Can anyone tell me why I was having so much trouble trying to get the ball and patch down there, and why also just a cleaning patch and the ramrod got stuck?
> 
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.



You need to lube/moisten your shooting patches and cleanig patches more but not to the point of soaking wet.
.
I use a mixture of alcohol/hydrogen peroxide/murphys oil soap but just about any liquid will do.
.
Dont use "spit".It has salt in it an you are not getting it wet enough.
.
Your bullet size and patch size are not the problem. You are using soft lead.Once you start the bullet down with your ball starter the soft lead will form itself to the barrel size .
keep swabbing between shots with the regular patch. No need to cut it down in size...When you cut it down it is no being effective enough to get the job done and causing more crud to build up.
.
Get a handle for the opposite end of your ram rod or atleast drill a 1/16 hole in the brass part so you can slide in a small nail to help you get a grip.
.


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## fishfryer (Nov 10, 2010)

remember to use cotton or other natural fiber,synthetics will melt and leave residue in barrel.You don't have to have precut,round patches,after you start your patched roundball,just get the ball barely below the barrel end,and cut the patch material off with a sharp knife.Precut patches are fine, but oldtimers probably never used one.


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## mmarkey (Nov 10, 2010)

If you are using cut commercial patches they should be round and are all sized by caliber. Get the size that matches your barrel. Pre lubed are great if you're planning to keep the gun loaded for a while, but for range shooting UNLUBED patches that you put in your mouth and soak with spit are just fine, (they will NOT rust your barrel as previously mentioned) they will swab your bore as you load usually good for many rounds (10 to 20 or more as long as it's fireing) if you periodically swab your barrel with a wet cleaning patch to remove excess fouling, be sure to run a couple of dry cleaning patches and shoot a cap or a prime to dry the ignition. 

The jag is for cleaning patches ONLY. The rammer is not designed to hold the cleaning patch or the ball patch. If your using the Jag as rammer it is probably grabbing the excess patch matertial and holding it as it should. 

As for ball and patch combination. I'm shooting a 50 cal with .490 ball and .020 patch (it's tight). But the smaller the barrel the tighter the ball gets. You may want to try a .010 cotton patch in 45 Cal size. When I had my 45 cal flinter I never even used a starter, just seated the ball and patch with my thumb and rammed it home (not a real tight combo but it shot great).

If you are cutting your patch at the barrel, you may be putting it in too far before cutting the patch, the ball should be right at the muzzle. Extra fabric is piling up in front of the ball. The patch is only to seal the grooves, everything in front of the ball does nothing.

When using a cleaning patch with a jag, if it is real tight going in the muzzle it is going to be difficult to pull out. This can be from severe fouling or too thick or too large a patch. For cleaning I use 1 thin cotton flannel cleaning patch about 2" square (GI Patches), if I use 2 especially after it gets wet it is stuck. Or if it is too large a cleaning patch, the fabric piles up behind the jag when you pull it out and will lock everthing solid. 

If you're using real Black Powder the best thing to clean you bore is warm water with a little liquid dish wash, then plain warm water rinse, then spray a little WD40 to displace any remaing water. Dry and oil and you're done. Done it this way for nearly 40 years and ain't rusted a barrel yet.

It's all trial and error, it's a matter of finding the right combination. Good luck and don't quit.


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## LanceColeman (Nov 10, 2010)

WHAT does your patch look like after the shot?? Are you checking them to see if the center is tore or smoldered?? it should only be 20-30 feet out in front of your barrel on the ground after the shot.. and all it should show is "fraying" around the edges and a lil dark or brown "ring" on it from the powder burn off. if it's tore down the sides it's getting cut on the rifling, if it's burnt through the center the powder is burning through it.

P.A.M. (peroxide, murphies, alcahol) is a great cleaner as well as lube.


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## Supercracker (Nov 12, 2010)

flyfisher76544 said:


> Same here....
> 
> As far as going to the fabric store and figuring out the thickness, well I would say ask the folks there. Unless you have a caliper handy. Don't mind the stares  though..lol



I is too


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## flyfisher76544 (Nov 14, 2010)

Supercracker said:


> I is too



Yep, great place to get some info and talk.

Need an update, did your prob get fixed?


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## tv_racin_fan (Nov 14, 2010)

Far as I am concerned I can not tell you any more without seeing the rifle and patches for myself. It may well be that your rifle has a bore smaller than is marked. It is not un heard of.


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## telsonman (Nov 14, 2010)

I went to a fabric store the other day, but I forgot the micrometer. I didn't trust myself enough to just feel it. So I'm going back this week and search again. 

2 questions though:
Should I wash the .015 patches I have and try again? I keep seeing people say to wash patches first, and I didn't with those.

Also, when I get the material, what diameter should I cut the patches for a 45cal bore?


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## SASS249 (Nov 14, 2010)

Yes, wash the ones you currently have and try again.  Pillow ticking with sizing can be almost water repellent and will not do you much good in keeping the fouling moist.  

I have better luck tearing the patch material into strips and cutting it on the barrel than trying to cut it to size first.  However if you want to cut and prelube patches cut a fairly generous square, load and again cut the patch on the barrel.  You then don't end up trying to center the ball in a pre-cut round patch.


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## Supercracker (Nov 15, 2010)

flyfisher76544 said:


> Need an update, did your prob get fixed?



haha, which one? I always have so much going on that I can't keep up.

If you mean the stand on my fenceline. I think I might have.

I went and just moved it to a different tree about 20' away. Every time he relocates it I'm just gonna move it slightly. If nothing else I'll make him think he's losing his mind. 

hehe


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## flyfisher76544 (Nov 16, 2010)

That ought to do it, if he finds it.


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