# The jehovah witness ladies came knocking today...



## atlashunter (Sep 4, 2019)

Today two older women came knocking. "We wanted to talk to you about how everything is so crazy these days with the shootings and the tornadoes and hurricanes. God didn't intend for things to be this way and he has a plan and we would like to talk to you about some things." How do you guys normally respond to this? I've had a couple times where I thought about challenging them on why they believe what they do or saying no thanks and shutting the door but I didn't want to be rude so I told them I didn't have time but would take whatever material they wanted to give me. They gave me a pamphlet and asked when would be a better time to come back. "The weekend perhaps?" I gave the non-committal maybe some other time response and they left. Hope I didn't encourage them to come back again by being too nice.

Does anyone actually invite these people in and listen to their sales pitch? It's kind of like real world spam. It must work some percentage of time or they wouldn't keep doing it right?


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## baddave (Sep 4, 2019)

i had a car load of them , colored folk , come down my driveway one time , i was nice to them . here i am dressed up like a redneck scarecrow in the middle of the woods--i'd a payed good money for a pic of their face when i told them i believe that aliens created us.. biggest , brightest , white eyes you ever seen


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## KyDawg (Sep 4, 2019)

They dont bother me, some other Christians should be as dedicated.


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## kmckinnie (Sep 5, 2019)

I have a friend that’s a elder. He’s a great guy. I have listened to him when we worked together. 
Pretty good guy all and all.


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## Big7 (Sep 5, 2019)

Simple on my end.. 
I have a door clacker made from bamboo.

It reads." This is a Catholic Home, no soliciting". I watch them coming up the walk.
It's funny how fast they go away..


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## specialk (Sep 5, 2019)

They came once, about 20 yrs. ago....i showed up naked at the front door....they never came back....


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## 660griz (Sep 5, 2019)

I use to be nice and listen to their story. Then, I just started saying, "No thanks, I don't believe in any gods." This usually starts a discussion that ends with, " Why not believe...just in case." I then tell them I have higher morals than that.


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## GeorgiaBob (Sep 5, 2019)

I untuck my my shirt, grab a beer from the fridge, and answer the door scratching my exposed belly. With a loud, "Girls, you're just what I needed" and leer. I open the outer door wide, using the beer holding hand. I sniff, make a face, and say, "Sorry about that" Then I pointedly scratch my bottom before offering the same hand to shake! From there I just wing it.

It seldom runs them off, but it does leave them off their game! I am a Believer, a Christian who believes in sharing my faith. But I do not support the idea of attempting to enter the lives of strangers with "my cult is the only way" proselytizing. I do, however, strongly support the idea having fun while of scaring off uninvited people!


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## atlashunter (Sep 5, 2019)

specialk said:


> They came once, about 20 yrs. ago....i showed up naked at the front door....they never came back....


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## atlashunter (Sep 5, 2019)

I guess I don’t mind them doing what they think is right but it’s still awkward. I’m not real familiar with their beliefs but It might be interesting to talk to them about why they believe what they do.


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## transfixer (Sep 5, 2019)

When the show up just tell them you have a family member who is a Witness,  you're very familiar with their beliefs and you have absolutely no interest in talking to them,   they won't be back, you can also request that your house be removed from their territory list,   they actually have territory lists and note which houses they have been told not to return to. 

   I have a family member that belongs to that organization,  cult if you will,  some of their beliefs are good, actually correct,  but they interpret the bible in their own way, literally,  but sometimes too literally,   the organization itself is almost as corrupt as the Catholic organization once was,  lots of child abuse, molestation, and various other crimes kept out of the news by their lawyers.


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## specialk (Sep 5, 2019)

in all seriousness, unless my house has smoke and flames coming out do not come up to it unannounced..i don't care who you are....call, text, email, or write me a letter........


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## Baroque Brass (Sep 5, 2019)

I haven’t been bothered by them in a while, but the last time, when they were greeted by three large, barking dogs, they never got out of the car.


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## killerv (Sep 5, 2019)

no reason to be ugly to them. every one I have been around has been really nice folks. My mothers secretary is one and a super lady. Her husband and her actually knocked on my door once, not knowing I lived there, and I let them in and listed to them for awhile.  It's not as different as you might think.


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## transfixer (Sep 5, 2019)

killerv said:


> no reason to be ugly to them. every one I have been around has been really nice folks. My mothers secretary is one and a super lady. Her husband and her actually knocked on my door once, not knowing I lived there, and I let them in and listed to them for awhile.  It's not as different as you might think.



  Most are very nice in the way they interact with other people,  part of their belief system is they are to be an example of what a christian is.  The society ( as they refer to the home organization)  wants them to present themselves well and to represent their organization well,  one big problem I have with the organization is they admonish against their members socializing with " worldly people "  in other words people that aren't witnesses,   even if those people are family members, in other words if invited to a cookout among co-workers they usually won't attend,  or attend parties with neighbors or co-workers,  and usually won't attend family gatherings unless the majority of the family is also in the witness organization . 

and if someone used to be a member and left the organization or was " disfellowshipped "  then the members are strongly advised not to associate with them in any fashion,  much like the Scientology people do their members,  as a result there are many families,  such as mine,  who are not very close with relatives as a result of the teachings of that organization,   to me that is just wrong,  and not very christian at all .


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## rattlesnake1 (Sep 5, 2019)

I tell them I am a Blood bought ,born again , Spirit filled Christian.
they normally don't hang around.
but they are much more dedicated than most Christians that I know.


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## Flash (Sep 6, 2019)

atlashunter said:


> I guess I don’t mind them doing what they think is right but it’s still awkward. I’m not real familiar with their beliefs but It might be interesting to talk to them about why they believe what they do.



 The way I understand the belief is they don't believe there is a literal "bad place" to go when you die. If you fall in that group you cease to exist. If you are pretty good you live in paradise, here on a new earth, for eternity. Then if you're at the top you go to heaven as one of the 144 thousand.     

They also said in their writings that Jesus returned to earth sometime in the early 1900's. 

As mentioned some Christians should be as faithful and loving as they are.


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## transfixer (Sep 6, 2019)

Flash said:


> The way I understand the belief is they don't believe there is a literal "bad place" to go when you die. If you fall in that group you cease to exist. If you are pretty good you live in paradise, here on a new earth, for eternity. Then if you're at the top you go to heaven as one of the 144 thousand.
> 
> They also said in their writings that Jesus returned to earth sometime in the early 1900's.
> 
> As mentioned some Christians should be as faithful and loving as they are.



     They don't believe in " Hades"   ,  they believe if you die and aren't one of the " 144 thousand" descendants of the tribes of Israel if I remember right,   then you don't go to heaven,   you are simply dead until after Armageddon and then you would be resurrected to live in the new world,     I've never heard reference to Jesus having returned to earth in recent times,    having family in that religion I'm fairly familiar with it. 

    Don't think that they are any more faithful than anyone else of another belief,   they appear that way in public,  as many do,   but if you really get to know many of them you will realize that are just like Baptists, Methodists, or any other religion,   they are not always what they profess to be .


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## transfixer (Sep 6, 2019)

jollyroger said:


> The same little old black ladies have been coming by our place for several years, usually about twice a year. The first time I was just forthright with the fact that I'm a 'former Catholic turned non-believer, but my wife is a staunch Catholic and firm in her beliefs.' I then segue into a generic topic like weather or politics-lite and just generally try and be personable. I actually enjoy when they come by, I'm really not bothered. I think at this point they know who I am, they're not going to convert me, but just have to do there spiel out of duty. They love my kids. Our conversations are always genial and both parties leave feeling better about their day.
> 
> Long story short, I don't mind at all. It's reason to enjoy good company for a few minutes.



    I meant to mention this yesterday,    the reason they keep coming back even though they know you aren't interested in converting,  is probably because they are " pioneers"  ,  basically full time going door to door ,   as "pioneers"  they are required to put in so many hours a month going door to door,  which can be difficult to do if they don't find anyone willing to listen,   so they are basically using you to fill in their time card.    In order to be a member of high standing in that organization members need to put in time going " in service "  knocking on doors,   if someone wants to elevate their standing they become a " pioneer" which means they commit to putting in so many hours a month in service,  I don't know what it is now , but it used to be about 70hrs or more to qualify for " pioneer" status. 

   They may indeed be nice people,  but they have their reasons for coming back


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## WaltL1 (Sep 6, 2019)

Its been a number of years since any JWs came knocking. To be honest I was no more interested in what they were selling than if they were selling vacuums. I'd take the brochure and check it out later but I wasn't interested in the sales pitch.
These days I would be more open to hear what they have to say just for educational purposes.
I will say this though, any interaction Ive had with them was like this -


> Most are very nice in the way they interact with other people,  part of their belief system is they are to be an example of what a christian is.  The society ( as they refer to the home organization)  wants them to present themselves well and to represent their organization well,


You gotta admit, they are putting their shoe leather where their mouth is. They have to know that 99% of the doors they knock on don't want to hear a word they have to say, yet they still put in the work.


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## transfixer (Sep 6, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> Its been a number of years since any JWs came knocking. To be honest I was no more interested in what they were selling than if they were selling vacuums. I'd take the brochure and check it out later but I wasn't interested in the sales pitch.
> These days I would be more open to hear what they have to say just for educational purposes.
> I will say this though, any interaction Ive had with them was like this -
> 
> You gotta admit, they are putting their shoe leather where their mouth is. They have to know that 99% of the doors they knock on don't want to hear a word they have to say, yet they still put in the work.



   I hate to categorize it this way,,  but to a large extent the members of that organization are brain washed,  they truly believe in what they are told,   and if you look up the history of the organization and how it was started,,  it really isn't anything of divine beginnings.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 6, 2019)

transfixer said:


> I hate to categorize it this way,,  but to a large extent the members of that organization are brain washed,  they truly believe in what they are told,   and if you look up the history of the organization and how it was started,,  it really isn't anything of divine beginnings.


Im trying to avoid this sounding insulting because its not meant as such but....
I think the above ^ would apply to any religion/denomination there is/was.


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## Jimmymorgan (Sep 6, 2019)

They are some of the best people that I have ever met. I to have family that are Jehovah's witnesses. It's amazing the changes for the good that they made in there life since they started studying the Bible. It takes a lot of love for other people to use there time and money to go tell others about God. Especially when no one gets paid for there work.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 6, 2019)

Jimmymorgan said:


> They are some of the best people that I have ever met. I to have family that are Jehovah's witnesses. It's amazing the changes for the good that they made in there life since they started studying the Bible. It takes a lot of love for other people to use there time and money to go tell others about God. Especially when no one gets paid for there work.


Sorry, but I don't want them coming around annoying me to tell me about God. I didn't ask for it. The ones a couple weeks ago beating on my door at 8AM, I told them I worship Dagon. They left.


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## Tom W. (Sep 7, 2019)

I remember that somewhere in the Bible it says to just close the door. It doesn't say to be rude. I ask them right up front what group they are representing.  When I get my answer I'll tell them that we go to Cascade Hills church in Columbus. They usually disappear quickly after that.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 7, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Sorry, but I don't want them coming around annoying me to tell me about God. I didn't ask for it. The ones a couple weeks ago beating on my door at 8AM, I told them I worship Dagon. They left.


They probably saw your posts in the Outdoor Café and were praying you were fixing breakfast at 8 am and would invite them in for some vittles


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## Flash (Sep 7, 2019)

transfixer said:


> They don't believe in " Hades"   ,  they believe if you die and aren't one of the " 144 thousand" descendants of the tribes of Israel if I remember right,   then you don't go to heaven,   you are simply dead until after Armageddon and then you would be resurrected to live in the new world,     I've never heard reference to Jesus having returned to earth in recent times,    having family in that religion I'm fairly familiar with it.
> 
> Don't think that they are any more faithful than anyone else of another belief,   they appear that way in public,  as many do,   but if you really get to know many of them you will realize that are just like Baptists, Methodists, or any other religion,   they are not always what they profess to be .



https://www.watchman.org/articles/jehovahs-witnesses/jehovahs-witnesses-and-the-history-of-1914/


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## atlashunter (Sep 10, 2019)

Tom W. said:


> I remember that somewhere in the Bible it says to just close the door. It doesn't say to be rude. I ask them right up front what group they are representing.  When I get my answer I'll tell them that we go to Cascade Hills church in Columbus. They usually disappear quickly after that.



That's one high dollar church. Is it true they get members financial statements or tax returns to ensure they are tithing?


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## atlashunter (Sep 10, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> Im trying to avoid this sounding insulting because its not meant as such but....
> I think the above ^ would apply to any religion/denomination there is/was.




Pretty much the view from where I stand too. Seems to me they are all holding things to be true which have no evidentiary basis. What they believe is less interesting to me than why they believe it. I think if they come back I'm going to invite them in and hear them out just to ask that question.


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## Tom W. (Sep 10, 2019)

We haven't gotten any such statements. Lori has been a member since the doors opened and it was a little bitty place. 
I enjoy the messages there, but have yet to enjoy the music.
I was a choir director and song leader at an Independent Baptist Church and my late wife was the pianist / organist prior to her demise. The music at Cascade Hills was a shock to me!


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## PopPop (Sep 10, 2019)

They showed up at my farm house once, let's say it ain't on the main road, my bulldog jumped up on the hood and started biting their windshield. They wanted to know if he would bite? I said that I believed he would. Never saw them again, never saw that sweet dog behave like that again either.
From my perspective, it was funny to watch.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 8, 2019)

Flash said:


> The way I understand the belief is they don't believe there is a literal "bad place" to go when you die. If you fall in that group you cease to exist. If you are pretty good you live in paradise, here on a new earth, for eternity. Then if you're at the top you go to heaven as one of the 144 thousand.
> 
> They also said in their writings that Jesus returned to earth sometime in the early 1900's.
> 
> As mentioned some Christians should be as faithful and loving as they are.



I just had a thought concerning the 144K "elite" who go to heaven - it's an unfair system and here is why:
let's say back in the bible days when the 144K idea was conceived of the earth's population was 100 million. Slim odds, but doable. Now the earth's population is 
7 billion so the odds of being in the elite group are astronomically against your success! It's a total gyp for anyone trying to get to heaven in 2019. 

So if they come to my house I will bring this up with them I guess.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 8, 2019)

WaltL1 said:


> Its been a number of years since any JWs came knocking. To be honest I was no more interested in what they were selling than if they were selling vacuums. I'd take the brochure and check it out later but I wasn't interested in the sales pitch.
> These days I would be more open to hear what they have to say just for educational purposes.
> I will say this though, any interaction Ive had with them was like this -
> 
> You gotta admit, they are putting their shoe leather where their mouth is. They have to know that 99% of the doors they knock on don't want to hear a word they have to say, yet they still put in the work.



so they would make good bow hunters then? They sure have the character traits needed to deal with lack of success!


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## glynr329 (Oct 8, 2019)

Just get the Bible they will leave quick. I do have to admire them if other religions worked as hard as they do things would be different.    When they would leave my ex use to tell them she would pray for them.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 8, 2019)

transfixer said:


> I hate to categorize it this way,,  but to a large extent the members of that organization are brain washed,  they truly believe in what they are told,   and if you look up the history of the organization and how it was started,,  it really isn't anything of divine beginnings.


Are not all religions/beliefs that way?  Not trying to be argumentative, yet we all should acknowledge that we assume we are right and the other is wrong. We believe our interpretation over their interpretation, we believe out info, sources, beginnings... over theirs. ["theirs" not meaning specifically the JW beliefs but any belief other than our own]


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## transfixer (Oct 8, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> Are not all religions/beliefs that way?  Not trying to be argumentative, yet we all should acknowledge that we assume we are right and the other is wrong. We believe our interpretation over their interpretation, we believe out info, sources, beginnings... over theirs. ["theirs" not meaning specifically the JW beliefs but any belief other than our own]



    I don't know,  I don't have much experience with other religious groups,  a little with modern day Baptists I suppose,  but other than that and because I have family members that are Jehovah's witnesses I know a good bit about their beliefs.

   I liken the JW people to the Scientology people,    the ones that are active in the organization are almost fanatics in their beliefs,  no birthday celebrations,  no christmas, no thanksgiving, no Easter, at least not the same way most people do,   no blood transfusions even if it means the person dies.    and the only approved reason for two people geting divorced is adultery by one of the partners,  otherwise there is no valide " approved " reason for divorce,   One person and his beliefs started the organization ,  Charles Taze Russell,   and his beliefs were modified later by Joseph Rutherford,   both men were thought unconventional and maybe a little radical way back then,   remember the Jehovah's Witness organization only started in 1870, and their beliefs then were only partially what they are today,   they were heavily modified in the 1930's , according to whoever was in charge of the group then.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 8, 2019)

Truth is, the conversations I have had with them have been much like the conversations we have here. I found them interesting. I am an inquisitive guy.  LOL, I asked them many questions about their beliefs, specifics. I politely pointed out things I saw as problematic with their views. LOL, I never deconverted any, but I am sure that I made some good points.  They eventually realized that I was waaay far beyond their training, although they were very prepared and trained, 100x knew more about the bible than your typical Christian, so they called in the big dog, the head guy, Mike. Mike and Cynthia would visit occasionally.  I never invited them in, but if I were not busy, I would invite them to sit down on the front porch. They were very polite, content, not to be able to convert me and eventually took me off the house stop list. They seem to be good people, trying what they believe, to please God. I have no problem with them. Much more pleasant than your typical Christian whom gets offended if you don't believe as they do on every level. It's as if they don't really expect to convert many, but rather, just are doing what they should. which conforms with their belief. Christians somehow think they should be able to sow seed, cultivate, shine and harvest same day. I find them very respectful of others beliefs. If anyone does not like their drive by visit, you could ask that they no longer drop by and I will bet that you will never see them again. They keep a list, and work areas systematically.  However, recently a new group stopped by, unaware of those 10 years ago, not even knowing those particular people, and I was busy, so I just politely took their pamphlets and told them I would consider their invite, even though I knew better. Rather than point out my objections to particular beliefs of theirs, I will refrain, in an attempt to not diminish my beginning points about them being good people. I will point out that from what I have seen, they are not all black. This has come up in several post. In my area, it seems to be 50/50, yet, what do I really know?


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## Timberman (Oct 8, 2019)

I had a sawyer that was a JW. After he had been with me a couple weeks the elders made an unannounced visit to the mill to "approve" his job. He was good help.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 8, 2019)

transfixer said:


> I don't know,  I don't have much experience with other religious groups,  a little with modern day Baptists I suppose,  but other than that and because I have family members that are Jehovah's witnesses I know a good bit about their beliefs.
> 
> I liken the JW people to the Scientology people,    the ones that are active in the organization are almost fanatics in their beliefs,  no birthday celebrations,  no christmas, no thanksgiving, no Easter, at least not the same way most people do,   no blood transfusions even if it means the person dies.    and the only approved reason for two people geting divorced is adultery by one of the partners,  otherwise there is no valide " approved " reason for divorce,   One person and his beliefs started the organization ,  John Taze Russell,   and his beliefs were modified later by Joseph Rutherford,   both men were thought unconventional and maybe a little radical way back then,   remember the Jehovah's Witness organization only started in 1870, and their beliefs then were only partially what they are today,   they were heavily modified in the 1930's , according to whoever was in charge of the group then.


Other than some disputable interpretations, they use the same bible as baptist. Most of the main difference I see that is off the rails is the blood restrictions. The writer of those 2 passages in no way was referring to blood as they see it, nor could they have ever imagined it so.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 8, 2019)

I had a JW employee for a few months as I was working out of town. I discovered that not all JW's believe or convey their belifs the same. We had lots of conversations. He kept a detailed  record of all his time spent witnessing, of which I pointed out, why, if you really believe that your not working your way into heaven. They claim they are not, that it's just the correct response, yet, why then the log book? He would not ever concede that this was contradictory. I feel like he was proud of his work accumulation.  It is the proper response to react in giving back... just without the log book


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 8, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> I will point out that from what I have seen, they are not all black. This has come up in several post. In my area, it seems to be 50/50, yet, what do I really know?


?
I have seen hundreds of JW's around here. I have never, ever seen a black JW.


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## transfixer (Oct 8, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> ?
> I have seen hundreds of JW's around here. I have never, ever seen a black JW.



    Oh,  there are plenty of them,  around the Metro Atl area it reflects the population,  even out here in the suburbs where I live the congregations are probably 50/50,   and they have Spanish speaking congregations as well.


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## transfixer (Oct 8, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> I had a JW employee for a few months as I was working out of town. I discovered that not all JW's believe or convey their belifs the same. We had lots of conversations. He kept a detailed  record of all his time spent witnessing, of which I pointed out, why, if you really believe that your not working your way into heaven. They claim they are not, that it's just the correct response, yet, why then the log book? He would not ever concede that this was contradictory. I feel like he was proud of his work accumulation.  It is the proper response to react in giving back... just without the log book



    They keep track of their hours in service for the elders,  its more or less a status thing,  those that put in a lot of hours in service are looked at as being better followers,   if they choose to " pioneer "   it means they are committing to putting in  "x" amount of hours a month going door to door,   something like 70 to 100 hrs in order to qualify as a pioneer.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 8, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> I had a JW employee for a few months as I was working out of town. I discovered that not all JW's believe or convey their belifs the same. We had lots of conversations. He kept a detailed  record of all his time spent witnessing, of which I pointed out, why, if you really believe that your not working your way into heaven. They claim they are not, that it's just the correct response, yet, why then the log book? He would not ever concede that this was contradictory. I feel like he was proud of his work accumulation.  It is the proper response to react in giving back... just without the log book





> I feel like he was proud of his work accumulation.


I would imagine its the same sense of pride some Christians get when a certain % of their income goes to tithing every month. Tithing = sacrifice. Religions are all about its members sacrificing. Apparently the more you sacrifice, the better a god feels about themselves and therefore will shine a brighter light on you.
Depending on where you sit, one could view tithing as an attempt to buy your way into heaven. To the Christian doing the tithing, they feel they are simply giving back to the church/God - which is the "proper response".


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## kmh1031 (Oct 14, 2019)

Simply put we keep track of time, placements, bible studies etc so we can see how well worldwide We as Christians are fulfilling Jesus command at Matt 24:14 and Matt 28:19-20

It has noting to do with status, they are not published publicly or shared for each individual to see another’s 

Just the numbers as a whole are tabulated, per Congreation, per country, then world figures.
Several billion hours worldwide Are spent in the ministry
Hundreds of thousands of bible studies Conducted 
Over 900 Languages are now being translated on our website
Over 200k are baptized annually. 

All of this helps us see progress via our preaching work and how we are fulfilling the above scripture and much more. 

Those that can invest more in the ministry do... but the command to preach is To every true Christian not just those in the pulpits...

Hope this helps answering the question


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## transfixer (Oct 14, 2019)

Everyone in the congregation knows which members have the most hours in service,  especially those that do participate in going in service,   and they are looked up to,  its not supposed to be a status thing,  but of course it is,  don't kid yourself.  Those who pioneer and put in a lot of hours are looked up to.   As an example to follow.  And the gossip vine is just as prevalent in Kingdom Halls as it is out in the rest of the world !


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## humdandy (Oct 14, 2019)

specialk said:


> They came once, about 20 yrs. ago....i showed up naked at the front door....they never came back....


I did that too....but now they come back once a month.


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## kmh1031 (Oct 14, 2019)

Not sure where u get ur info or if it is tainted for some reason..
but no... hours are not public or talked about like a status symbol unless it is causally done. 
It is not a status symbol at all... it is considered sacred service and a privilege to preach whether u get 15 min as my 94 yr old mom did... or more.. Apparently you have a different  view or experience than I have of over 60 years


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 15, 2019)

atlashunter said:


> Today two older women came knocking. "We wanted to talk to you about how everything is so crazy these days with the shootings and the tornadoes and hurricanes. God didn't intend for things to be this way and he has a plan and we would like to talk to you about some things." How do you guys normally respond to this? I've had a couple times where I thought about challenging them on why they believe what they do or saying no thanks and shutting the door but I didn't want to be rude so I told them I didn't have time but would take whatever material they wanted to give me. They gave me a pamphlet and asked when would be a better time to come back. "The weekend perhaps?" I gave the non-committal maybe some other time response and they left. Hope I didn't encourage them to come back again by being too nice.
> 
> Does anyone actually invite these people in and listen to their sales pitch? It's kind of like real world spam. It must work some percentage of time or they wouldn't keep doing it right?


 
I invite them in and treat them like royalty, better than family.  I give them snacks and something to drink, then we sit down and I listen to their points.  I counter their beliefs with reason, but remain gracious.  Most will leave when they become uncomfortable, but I remain gracious always and tell them the door is always open to them if they want to come back.  I have never had them or the Mormons come back.   Apparently being kind to them get's you black-balled in their book.   It's very difficult for someone to dismiss you if you are kind and honest.  It makes them uncomfortable that you don't fit their preconceived stereotype.   When they get back to church and tell folks how nice you was to them and how you had valid points, someone will stop them from coming back.  A few years back we did this with some young Mormon missionaries.  They were great guys and we treated them to my wife's home made spiced peaches and milk, talked football and scripture.  The Bishop actually came by later that week to tell me he would make sure I was never visited by their missionaries again.


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## kmh1031 (Oct 15, 2019)

SemperFi,
Very nice comments, and actually refreshing. As you would imagine, we meet all types of people in our ministry, which is not always done door to door...
But when we do, it is nice. 

Regardless of our beliefs, and how different, once on her may be to our teachings, religion, etc, once thing is for sure; We all face many of the same problems; sickness, death, shall i say.."non-polite" people, and those mentioned at 2 Tim 3:1-5.  

Yet our goal is to carry on the command that Jesus taught us: (Matt 24:14, Matt 28:19-20)  and by his example and hopefully by our example.

Some like it, some don', so we dust off our feet and move on to those that are interested in the Bibles message.

But to your point, kindness never makes us uncomfortable, at the door, or in life. It is certainly rare to see in our ministry, but it does not make us uncomfortable.  

Thanks for your comments, and reaction to us at your door.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 15, 2019)

I actually think my beliefs most resemble the JW's   over the typical Christian beliefs, however, as with all the denominations, they to have points that I  disagree with and traditional things. I credit them for not reading into scripture that which is not there, with the major exception of their beliefs about blood. They could acknowledge this if they could break free from traditional thinking but then  hierarchy would not allow. Other than that, they are closely related to my beliefs.


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## kmh1031 (Oct 15, 2019)

Once people sit down and talk to us, and see that we don't bite the heads off of Spider Monkeys on Tuesdays and Sundays!

They come to see that we are normal imperfect people, trying to live by Gods standards  as indicated in the bible. 

Many then see that much of what they have been told about JWs is untrue, or extremely exaggerated. 

You might be surprised to know, that over 60%+ of JWs today have come from other religions that they grew up in, and were not satisfied with their church, beliefs, or lack of answers as to condition of dead, why we grow old and die, why god permits suffering, is their a burning ****, and much more.

True we do not follow the mainstream, but neither did the early Christians. 
They did not get involved in politics, did not celebrate holidays or birthdays, and much more.

Likewise today we are ridiculed many times for these very things we abstain from, that are clearly biblical, and many have their origination with pagan worship.....

Much, much more, but appreciate the conversation!  

Related to your question, concerning Blood Transfusions, here is a link to a nice article that if interested explains it much better than I can type.

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witn...-42ae7c80c39f&insight[search_result_index]=11 


We abstain for biblical reasons, but many, many hospitals and their patients are going "bloodless" as it is safer, and faster recovery..

Once one understands Gods viewpoint and reasoning's on blood from the days of Noah, up until the Christian congregation was formed his views on Blood did not change. 
Scriptures abound for Christians to "abstain from blood"

thanks


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 15, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> Once people sit down and talk to us, and see that we don't bite the heads off of Spider Monkeys on Tuesdays and Sundays!
> 
> They come to see that we are normal imperfect people, trying to live by Gods standards  as indicated in the bible.
> 
> ...


I hope this remains a good conversation for I do not wish to sound argumentative, but do wonder if any JW silently would admit that all the verses citing blood used by the Jw's, is in regard to drinking blood, injesting blood. In Acts, NT, view is still regarding the mouth intake of blood. One would have to make the leap, that the OT was giving us a directive that one one day later in the future, be realized as blood injection, into the blood stream. While I do agree that the OT gives many typologies that are later, in the NT, evolve into intended purposes. Nothing comes to mind, but I expect that several exist.  However, the writer of the verses that JW's use in regard to blood... that writer would have never imagined in his wildest dreams that anothers blood might be transfused into another person. Going further, blood type, etc. So, I think it's a big leap to build a doctrine on so little. Yet, it is a major foundation of the JW doctrine. I would not argue that blood transfusions are not necessary. Not always, or any of the other plus or minus aspects, only that the few scriptures this is based on, at that time written, were not thinking of blood infusion but rather blood injesting. Are they the same? I honestly think that JW tradition, and the fact that they do not want to back down from a long standing doctrine, and... hierarchy governing individuals from adopting a version of the JW faith, is all that shores up this blood doctrine. I'm rambling now, however, my initial point... I wonder if  any JW would silently agree that these few verses are not referring to injection of blood. And, I should remind us that these verses were never regarding another humans blood. It was always referring to a sacrifice or animal. Drinking of a humans blood was never referred to here


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## kmh1031 (Oct 15, 2019)

I have to go out for a bit.
And yes drinking of blood was common then, as well as eating blood in animals... so that is applied also.

But I will leave you with this scripture Acts 15:29
“Abstain from Blood” 
Other scripture is similar to these strong words on the OT and NT this consistency 

Question
If a Dr said to abstain from something as it meant ur life not to... say... alcohol...would that mean you could infuse it in u and it be ok although you did not drink it?


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## Para Bellum (Oct 15, 2019)

atlashunter said:


> I guess I don’t mind them doing what they think is right but it’s still awkward. I’m not real familiar with their beliefs but It might be interesting to talk to them about why they believe what they do.



I do mind.  I’m a firm believer in mind your own business and leave everyone else alone. If you wanna be a JW, go ahead but don’t try to push it on me.  Wanna be homosexual?  Good for you, don’t try to shove it down my throat.  You wanna be a Democrat?  Cool.  Stay the heck off my sidewalk.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 15, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> I have to go out for a bit.
> And yes drinking of blood was common then, as well as eating blood in animals... so that is applied also.
> 
> But I will leave you with this scripture Acts 15:29
> ...


Would you agree that "abstain from blood" is in the current context of eating....  AND... as in regards to perception. Because we all know that these animals that were used in a sacrificial manner, is not applying to us. much on this from Paul, however, the weak, the babe in Christ, might see you partake and it possibly hurt his faith because he does not yet have the spiritual freedom that a more mature might have. So, several  points, the context is animals blood, the context is eating, and the wild card is that in the NT, it is mentioned because of the perception of it, rather than the actual. ? I should point out that my interest in this conversation is not to win. I like to know the go to responses of the debate, both sides.


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## kmh1031 (Oct 15, 2019)

I appreciate you thoughts and have heard that before in discussion of blood.
Blood

Gods law on blood clearly extended to more than animal blood but also any and all blood. 

 God gave to Noah and which applies to all his descendants makes it wrong for anyone to eat blood, that is, to use the blood of another creature to nourish or sustain one’s life. 

Doing some research, on blood later in the 1st century, Tertullian in his Apology showed how the early Christians reasoned on the matter to abstain from all blood.

So today it is recognized that if this prohibition applies to animal blood, it applies with even more force to human blood based on the sanctity of Human Blood.
It includes “any blood at all.” Leviticus 3:17

Arguments to the effect that the prohibition on the use of blood issued by the early Christian governing body only dealt with animal blood and certainly surely does include Human blood fall short of the ancient evidence.

It could be because they are not be familiar with the blatant misuse of Human blood at the time of The Apostles writings 

But one cannot ignore the repeated scriptures to abstain from blood... clearly means animal and human by the anointed Apostles. 


How do we know this.... what was going on the ..
Note this, In ancient Rome, which dominated the Mediterranean world in the first century, spectators at the gladiatorial contests would rush into the arena after the fight and suck the blood streaming from the neck of the vanquished gladiator. 

Some from among the Scythians reportedly ate their dead relatives. 

Treaties were made among some peoples by mutually drinking a portion of each other’s blood; and human blood caught in the hand and eaten was used to seal initiation into the rites of the pagan goddess Bellona. 

So when the apostles, under direction of the holy spirit, said that Christians were to keep themselves from blood, (Acts 15:29 for one) they clearly had in mind both animal and human blood too.


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## kmh1031 (Oct 15, 2019)

Eating, or infusing is the same as it accomplishes the sam purpose .... 

Smoking or injecting nicotine via a patch is putting it on the body..

Eating or getting nourishment via IV accomplishes the same thing.
Eating blood or having a blood transfusion is the same as well.

Medically speaking and not scripturally, there are many alternatives to blood transfusions if one is in the hospital that in many cases saves the life, builds blood and is Munich more safe. 

Research  bloodless surgery  if interested and you will see that many hospitals and cutting edge Drs are going this route for many health benefits to the patient


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 15, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> I appreciate you thoughts and have heard that before in discussion of blood.
> Blood
> 
> Gods law on blood clearly extended to more than animal blood but also any and all blood.
> ...


 Did you hear yourself? Respectfully. The "Holy Spirit said that Christians were to keep themselves from blood, animal and human". Does that not sound strange to you? That Christians need to be told not to drink human blood?


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 15, 2019)

Respectfully, I don't wish to debunk your view. I think I should admit that my inquisitiveness is not just wanting to see both sides of the argument, but rather that this is the issue that keeps me from considering fellowship


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## kmh1031 (Oct 15, 2019)

It may seem strange to us.... but that was the rage back in the day of Romans and gladiators and fight to the death. 
Drinking blood was the “In” thinly to do.

Read some of the ancient history of how these ( non christian) people lived and what they did...
The caution was not to get caught up in these things and defile oneself by getting involved in these “sporting events”


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## kmh1031 (Oct 15, 2019)

1gr8bldr
I certainly understand your concerns and stand and respect it. 

I might suggest more research on the matter and consider other views of ours u do agree with, and as u continue to advance in ur understanding  (as we all need to do) 
Perhaps the light will get brighter as it continues with me and any who seek accurate knowledge.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 16, 2019)

Context can be seen on how they view blood. It was extremely offensive that Jesus sai


kmh1031 said:


> It may seem strange to us.... but that was the rage back in the day of Romans and gladiators and fight to the death.
> Drinking blood was the “In” thinly to do.
> 
> Read some of the ancient history of how these ( non christian) people lived and what they did...
> The caution was not to get caught up in these things and defile oneself by getting involved in these “sporting events”


The context that the writers were writing about may have been for another time period, as is lots of the bible, however the context as it was written and intended at the moment, was not sporting events, was not human blood.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 16, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> The context that the writers were writing about may have been for another time period, as is lots of the bible, however the context as it was written and intended at the moment, was not sporting events, was not human blood.


This is incorrect. It can not be for another time as if we would later understand the correct intended meaning. The context is for then under a certain issue. The Gentiles were being accepted into Christianity. However, they falsely assumed that they should follow the laws of the Jews from which Christianity evolved. So a committee was gathered to discuss this, of which Peter said, we should not put on them a yoke of which we were not able to bear. So they thought about it and determined that they should refrain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood [referring to those animals,] from strangled meat/blood and from sexual immorality. One could say then, that sexual immorality is still a sin therefore the blood must also be the same, however the context was never human blood. Nor was it transfused into the blood.  JW's have every right to hold to any and every belief they have. However, to say this particular belief is from the bible is incorrect. It's clearly not, yet held to tightly by traditions.


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## transfixer (Oct 16, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> This is incorrect. It can not be for another time as if we would later understand the correct intended meaning. The context is for then under a certain issue. The Gentiles were being accepted into Christianity. However, they falsely assumed that they should follow the laws of the Jews from which Christianity evolved. So a committee was gathered to discuss this, of which Peter said, we should not put on them a yoke of which we were not able to bear. So they thought about it and determined that they should refrain from meat sacrificed to idols, from blood [referring to those animals,] from strangled meat/blood and from sexual immorality. One could say then, that sexual immorality is still a sin therefore the blood must also be the same, however the context was never human blood. Nor was it transfused into the blood.  JW's have every right to hold to any and every belief they have. However, to say this particular belief is from the bible is incorrect. It's clearly not, yet held to tightly by traditions.




  The problem with the Witnesses beliefs are that they originated with one man's interpretation of the Bible,  and then were modified by another man's interpretations,  and have been further modified by the higher up members of the Watchtower Society,  these are people making these interpretations,  people just like everyone else,  and yet they rule these beliefs over the whole organization.  This is not a centuries old religious organization,  its only about 150yrs old,  and vastly different now than it was when originated,

     My problem with the organization is their beliefs have caused families not to be close,  parents not to have much to do with sons and daughters,,  brothers and sisters not to associate with each other,  so on and so forth,  and its virtually always the person that belongs to the Witness organization that will not associate with the family member who does not belong.

      I was raised in the organization when I was young,  when I was old enough to think for myself I started questioning things,  you aren't supposed to do that,,,  I chose not to follow that path in my late teens early twenties,  because I saw much hypocrisy in the congregations,  many who professed to be what they were not,  and I still know many who fall into that same category,   as I mentioned in the past,   I have family members who belong to it to this day,  I have watched relatives die as a result of the " no blood " issue,    I have relatives that live close to me that I never talk with unless they "need automotive help " , not because I don't want to talk with them,  but because I know about the "truth" and rejected it,  they aren't supposed to associate with me.   I know things about those same relatives that are in direct conflict with witness beliefs,  yet they are looked upon with good favor in the organization.  There are some good people in the witness organization,  just as there are good people in Baptist,  Methodists, and Catholic, etc,etc,    yet the Witnesses don't want their people to associate with any other religions,  unless they are trying to preach to them,   Its almost like they are afraid their members might discover a different viewpoint ?  Much like cults we have seen,  their members are discouraged from thinking for themselves,   they are just supposed to believe what the organization says to believe. 

I grew up being told not to associate with " worldly people "   not to marry someone in the "world" ,   I didn't follow that ,,,  I have friends in the " world"  who I trust with my life,,   and have trusted with my life,,,,  I never had anyone in the witness organization I could trust like that,  and still don't know anyone in that organization I would trust to that level.

   The witness organization has just as many hypocrites and pretenders as any other organization,  but yet they profess to be the only " true " religion,  even though they weren't in existance until 1870, and really not until the 1930's

     Yes,   I am tainted towards the witnesses,  but it is all from personal experience,    and when you dig into the organization you will find the Society's lawyers do their best to keep various members wrong doings out of the news,   especially when it comes to child abuse and molestation,   they basically are guilty of the same thing the Catholic church has been guilty of for years.   While they might be small in number given the amount of members,  the cases exist,  and they are kept out of the limelight,


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 16, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> Would you agree that "abstain from blood" is in the current context of eating....  AND... as in regards to perception. Because we all know that these animals that were used in a sacrificial manner, is not applying to us. much on this from Paul, however, the weak, the babe in Christ, might see you partake and it possibly hurt his faith because he does not yet have the spiritual freedom that a more mature might have. So, several  points, the context is animals blood, the context is eating, and the wild card is that in the NT, it is mentioned because of the perception of it, rather than the actual. ? I should point out that my interest in this conversation is not to win. I like to know the go to responses of the debate, both sides.


I see a lot of things such as this related to Pagan worship or the worship of false gods. A lot of what Paul was relating to was the rituals of the false worship. So maybe it's more about the relation to drinking blood and false worship than to eating Blood Pudding.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 16, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> Context can be seen on how they view blood. It was extremely offensive that Jesus sai
> 
> The context that the writers were writing about may have been for another time period, as is lots of the bible, however the context as it was written and intended at the moment, was not sporting events, was not human blood.


Could we view homosexuality in that same light? Perhaps as it was related to temple prostitutes, Pagan orgies, pedestery, etc.?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 16, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> Eating, or infusing is the same as it accomplishes the sam purpose ....
> 
> Smoking or injecting nicotine via a patch is putting it on the body..
> 
> ...


Reminds me of someone who doesn't "drink" alcohol, taking an alcohol enema!


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 16, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> I appreciate you thoughts and have heard that before in discussion of blood.
> Blood
> 
> Gods law on blood clearly extended to more than animal blood but also any and all blood.
> ...



What was God's big deal about blood to begin with? I guess God got the ball rolling with animal skins and it went from there with his blood sacrifices. Up and until the death of Jesus which is and of itself a blood sacrifice.  

Does the JW teachings delve into this topic?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 16, 2019)

What about partaking of "cooked" blood? To be safe, why not become a vegan? Could one partake of blood parts? If I was going to be legalistic about it, I would be a vegan. 
Does one have to teach their children not to lick their cuts and wounds? Any special guidelines  on menstruating?


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## kmh1031 (Oct 16, 2019)

Granted we are not a perfect organization, as we are made up of imperfect people. 

However we forensically study the bible, the examples of the Israelites; right/wrong actions, and what got them in trouble and gods favor. 
We also study the apostles, Jesus, and the early Christians, and the congregations they preached to (Corinth, Thessalonica and more) and their issues internally.


To contradict your comments, we absolutely do not follow any man, nor worship him, as we work hard to follow in Jesus Footsteps, and not a man who "invented the religion".
Rewrite? no, again, please compare our beliefs to those in ancient times, early Christians and what they believed, took part in, and did not.

JW's are a restoration of true worship, based on the bible, and of the early Christians which we study fervently, and work to apply all of his teachings, in our everyday life. 

Thus the mingling of politics into the church, celebration of pagan holidays, and non-biblical truths that are rampant today in many religions are not part of our teachings.

Compare our teachings to those of the early Christians and you will see it is a restoration.


Yes, hypocrisy to a small extent does exist as with other organizations, as it did in the early Christian congregation.

Note Acts 20: 30 From among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.
People inside and outside the congregation will do this.

Jesus said he came not to unite, but to being division between, father daughter, mother son, etc. (not exact wording) What did he mean?

Jesus meant that, his teachings would separate family’s...because of previous beliefs that were incorrect the family held on to, vs changing to the truth of his teachings. This would cause the divisions...and it surely has, as indicated in your comments.

Yes we after much discussion, meetings, may see the need to disfellowship unrepentant wrongdoers in the congregation, to keep it clean, just as Paul encouraged those congregations to do, and to "quit associating with them"

It serves as a discipline to the wrong doer, and also a protection to the congregation.

The bible and its teachings are correct, and those that adhere to them, truly are Jesus disciples.
Those that chose not to, is clearly their choice.

Note Paul, Peter, and Timothy's letters to the congregation and the many issues they had, corrections needed, and many listened.

Imperfect people have these issues today, and yes, inside the JW organization. 

But it is not rampant as you may have indicated, and with love, encouragement, discussions, talks from the platform backed with scriptural evidence, study many of these are resolved just as in ancient times. We strive daily to put on the “new personality” and for some, that takes a while…

SO sorry for your personal experience you noted in your comments.  

FYI: . I converted from being a Baptist, and wife Methodist, to JW's a few years back.

I can tell you this, since I became a JW I have seen much love, and working hard to adhere to the bible teachings, preaching, here and thus very happy with the course I have chosen, even though, there are rifts, imperfection, some hypocrisy, on a much smaller scale than you may have experienced.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 16, 2019)

transfixer said:


> The problem with the Witnesses beliefs are that they originated with one man's interpretation of the Bible,  and then were modified by another man's interpretations,  and have been further modified by the higher up members of the Watchtower Society,  these are people making these interpretations,  people just like everyone else,  and yet they rule these beliefs over the whole organization.  This is not a centuries old religious organization,  its only about 150yrs old,  and vastly different now than it was when originated,
> 
> My problem with the organization is their beliefs have caused families not to be close,  parents not to have much to do with sons and daughters,,  brothers and sisters not to associate with each other,  so on and so forth,  and its virtually always the person that belongs to the Witness organization that will not associate with the family member who does not belong.
> 
> ...


Not that I would assume all experiences to be as yours was, I still appreciate the honest experiential assessment.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 16, 2019)

One positive That I see in their Churches is that Blacks and Whites worship together. That's not really a tradition in America. Just one aspect within promoting diversity. Most of the Witnesses I see in my neighborhood are mixed about 50-50. 

I think some of those mega-churches or newer non-denominational Churches are kind of mixed as well.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 16, 2019)

I have always wondered about the name "Jehovah Witnesses". It imply's that you are a witness for Jehovah. However, since I can't assume that I would know about your witnessing, I wonder, what other paths does your witness conversations take? From my perspective, it goes quickly to who Jesus is. But, that may not be but a percent of your encounters?. And I will say, At first, before the conversations goes to this, the intent seems to be on life.... opening the door to Jehovah.


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## kmh1031 (Oct 16, 2019)

Great discussion, and questions.
The name comes from Isa 43:10:   “You are my witnesses,”a declares Jehovah,“Yes, my servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and have faith in me* 

The bible clearly shows that God has a people....we specifically know this based on his words in Revelation 18: 4
And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people if you do not want to share with her in her sins, and if you do not want to receive part of her plagues. 5  For her sins have massed together clear up to heaven,g and God has called her acts of injustice* to mind 

This is clearly (with a study of Revelation) speaking of Babylon the Great, or the world empire of false religion, that permeates the world today and will be destroyed. He is telling his people to get out of her....reference on "my people" before it is too late....get away from false teachings.

Our ministry focal point is Gods Kingdom. 

That was the focal point of Jesus, the apostles, disciples ministry. He and now we pray for it in the Lords prayer.
It is not a "felling inside one" but an actual government, that has been established and will resolve mankind of all the issues we all now face.

He gave a glimpse of the many benefits of that heavenly kingdom, and the earthly part of it by healing the sick, curing the lame and blind, and raising the dead.
Much better benefits than any man made govt.

So that is our focus...and that kingdom will do many things, but here are simply two:
Daniel 2:44 (crush all worldly kingdoms)
Revelation 21:3-4 (eliminate death, sickness, etc)
Benefits mentioned in Ps 37
Over 100 prophesies in bible on earths restoration.

And our preaching on the kingdom, has many aspects as it also teaches us that God is not responsible for earths woes, death, sickness, crime, but will certifiably cure all these in the near future..

The earth is under someones else control: 1 John 5:19: We know that we originate with God, but the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one 

Note why things have intensified on earth Rev 12:7-9: 
And war broke out in heaven: Miʹcha·eli and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8  but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9  So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 

Note vs 12:
On this account be glad, you heavens and you who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing that he has a short period of time


We know this due to what state the world, people are experiencing. And it is indicated in 2 Tim 3: 1 - 5, 

BUT the key message again, that we bring to people...is Gods kingdom NOT MAN will solve all of these issues sickness, crime, war, disease, and yes even death.

So these are just a little of what we talk about to bring comfort to those who listen, as there is a great future ahead of us....if we follow Jesus teachings/

Jesus also noted to his followers in our day that teachings would vary from what he and apostles taught. 
Thus he gave 8-10 key signs to identify the True Religion of our day....a roadmap if you will. It is a litmus test we individually should use to test our own belief system, or religion.


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## kmh1031 (Oct 16, 2019)

Jehovah in English is Gods actual name. It was in the original writings, manuscripts  over 7K times.  Clearly he wanted us to know it and use it..being in there 7K times.

Some dont see the need or significance of that name Jehovah..

We all have names, and titles...Mike, and also Dad, and Grandfather...but we are know by our personal name... God has one too, and Jesus prayed that about that name in the lords prayer.
And some of Jesus last words were...."I have made your name known"...showing the importance of it.

That name, or calling on it gives us protection: Pro 18:10
The name of Jehovah is a strong tower. Into it the righteous one runs and receives protection 
What if we dont use it? what if we are calling on the wrong name?

Clearly he wanted his name know. 
And for years, you can see the tetregramatin (4 letters in Hebrew that make up gods name that was in the manuscripts) on churches, in Europe, and tons of other places.

Over the years, his name has been eliminated from many bibles. In fact, in the late 1800's the name was in most every bible...yet it has almost disappeared. Some bibles still have it in Ps 83:18 and elsewhere.
Isa 42:8 "I am Jehovah, that is my name". 

Makes one wonder who is responsible for removing Gods personal name...for us to call on out of the bible.

By using a title; LORD, or lord changes the meaning of the bible when Lord is substituted in its place incorrectly...check out Ps 110:1 to see what I mean...
The LORD said unto my lord"????

Generally speaking, in most bibles...LORD means where gods name was originally...lord means Jesus or something else...so check the info at beginning of your bible to see this explained if it is in there.


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## transfixer (Oct 16, 2019)

_
Jesus meant that, his teachings would separate family’s...because of previous beliefs that were incorrect the family held on to, vs changing to the truth of his teachings. This would cause the divisions...and it surely has, as indicated in your comments.

Yes we after much discussion, meetings, may see the need to disfellowship unrepentant wrongdoers in the congregation, to keep it clean, just as Paul encouraged those congregations to do, and to "quit associating with them_

   Myself and others I know were never baptized,  so it was never an issue of being " disfellowshipped" ,     it was simply I chose not to go to meetings, and I had acquaintances and girlfriends who were not witnesses,  when I was 18 or 19 and started not going to meetings,  it was like someone flipped a switch,  aunts, uncles, cousins,  etc,  quit having anything to do with me,  or a couple of friends of mine who once were part of the witnesses,   my overall family who were once close knit,  all of a sudden were divided, between those who attended the kingdom hall and those who didn't,     my viewpoint on that is it isn't a very christian stance to take to virtually exile family members because they don't believe the same thing you do ,,,  

  Truth be known I fall short of being a good christian, although I am well thought of among my friends and aqquaintances, and known as a person good for their word, and treats people right,  I have never cheated on my wife, and never would,  which I cannot say about some of my relatives who are still witnesses,    As I said there are witnesses who do try their best to live right, I know that.   

   I never implied the witnesses worship an individual person,   but Russell and Rutherford were the founders of the organization,  and their personal interpretations had major input into some of the beliefs,  the witness organization isn't the only group to forensically study the scripture,  but yet they claim to be the only ones to interpret it correctly,   I have a hard time with that,  always have. 

   I haven't been to a meeting or convention in years,  but one thing that always bothered me,   the speaker giving the talk, especially the older elders,  always seem to "talk down " to the audience,  and carried themselves as if they were better than those in the congregation,  I remember elders counciling my mom and dad when they had marital issues,  and they were very condescending towards both of them,  like parents scolding children for doing something wrong,  I was a kid,  but I didn't like that attitude then,   Maybe they have changed ?   don't know,    I know when I was a kid interracial marriages were frowned upon,  and interracial weddings were not conducted by elders,  I know that has changed with the times,   so it seems the witnesses have adapted to world views on some things.


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## kmh1031 (Oct 16, 2019)

Very heartfelt response, and I am sure that your words are what you experienced.

Not sure on the much has changed, but i think more focus on love of the ones in the congregation, being more understanding to the needs of the flock, less rigid and more focus on adapting the attitude of Jesus, being that of love, humility, and know that we all bear burdens that are known, and some personally unknown.

If you look at any of the info on the JW.org, you will see more loving videos about family, helping older ones, not "getting ones back up" over minor offenses. More on doing for others, and how to have a happy family life, and dealing with lifes struggles.

Talking down, or being "rulematic" has been replaced by citing bible principals, and much more. If a brother gives a talk that is too strong, or has some of the characteristics you mentioned you experienced...he is absolutly talked to about the tone, message, and appeal of his talk. 

As Gods people are ones of all nationalities, races, etc you will see (if anyone's attends) people of all walks of life, nationalities, races sitting together, and yes many married. 
People are the only ones who care about color, or race, or nationality..God is nuetral, 
Acts 10:34-35  

34  At this Peter began to speak, and he said: “Now I truly understand that God is not partial,a 35  but in every nation the man who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 

So from many perspectives, adopting the personality of the Christ, helps us all be more humble, and attentive to others needs, without being a hypocrite...putting the needs of others above our own needs....

But being imperfect..these do creep in, at the KH and home, and everyday life..

Like Paul Said..what I want to do..I do not do..and what I do..i do not do...
and that was his own struggle with sin..waging a war in his body. And it is ours also.

Again, sorry for your personal experience growing up, and hope to see you again,


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 16, 2019)

What do you guys think about Ex 3:15? God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers— the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob— has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.  This is my name to be remembered by.. "Yahweh" translated "The Lord".


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## kmh1031 (Oct 16, 2019)

Excellent scripture and one to remember. 
But note the LORD in Capitol letters. 
And my comments previously. That LORD is a change from the original writings. 

And via research, Bible Hub for example shows that The name in English is Jehovah.

Lord is a title and there are Many lords, As there are many fathers... and mothers and presidents... 
but one true almighty god and his name is Jehovah. 
Check the Darby translation or an actual literal translation and u will most lily see this actual translation into Gods name 

I think you will agree that when Jesus said to his father just before Death... “I have made ur name known.... he was not speaking of LORD... as again that is a title 

Like You and I have: Father or Dad. But my Name is Mike


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 17, 2019)

Jehovah is fine with me. I prefer personal names for God since the word God is a sort of title, if we ignore that there is only one God. However, it helps me coup when I hear people take God's name in vain. Since they don't even know his real name and use a title name, it removes a portion of the offense.

However, just for conversation,  wonder if you have ever realized this: https://yrm.org/yahweh-or-jehovah/


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## kmh1031 (Oct 17, 2019)

Thanks for that... just read it with my morning coffee!
Interesting take on which name to use. 

Headed out of town but I understand their points 

The truth is we really do not know the correct pronunciation of Gods name as it has been lost over time. 
But it is clear god wanted us to use it. 

We use Jehovah as it is the most used and has been in some of the earliest translations, back to Tyndall version and perhaps before.

Interesting that many bible writers name mean something about Jehovah 

Also millions today use trhe word Hallelujah and May not know it means Praise Jah... or Jehovah! 
This showing A shortened form of Jehovah 

Here is also a nice article on the name topic that might explain reasons why we use Jehovah. 

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1001061204?q=bible+writers+name+mean+jehovah&p=par


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 17, 2019)

I would think God, considering he knows everything, would not make such a big deal over humans getting his name or that of Jesus wrong. It's like rituals. Take baptism by sprinkling or dunking?  The Lord's Supper with grape juice vs wine. 

I would take it even one more step. Does God really care exactly how we perceive who his Son is? Adopted Son, God himself incarnate, Eternal Son incarnate, etc. Isn't the important part of the gospel being that God's Son died for out sins? That God's Son is our salvation?

It's like forgetting the spiritual new birth and trying to hang on to one's original birth by water.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 17, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would think God, considering he knows everything, would not make such a big deal over humans getting his name or that of Jesus wrong. It's like rituals. Take baptism by sprinkling or dunking?  The Lord's Supper with grape juice vs wine.
> 
> I would take it even one more step. Does God really care exactly how we perceive who his Son is? Adopted Son, God himself incarnate, Eternal Son incarnate, etc. Isn't the important part of the gospel being that God's Son died for out sins? That God's Son is our salvation?
> 
> It's like forgetting the spiritual new birth and trying to hang on to one's original birth by water.


I have often wondered why we translate some names but not others. When Jesus was a child, if his mother had said "Jesus come here". He would not have responded to the name Jesus. I still have no problem with it, I just think it's a little strange.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 17, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would think God, considering he knows everything, would not make such a big deal over humans getting his name or that of Jesus wrong. It's like rituals. Take baptism by sprinkling or dunking?  The Lord's Supper with grape juice vs wine.
> 
> I would take it even one more step. Does God really care exactly how we perceive who his Son is?
> 
> ...


 Another thread, another time


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## Madman (Oct 17, 2019)

atlashunter said:


> Today two older women came knocking. "We wanted to talk to you about how everything is so crazy these days with the shootings and the tornadoes and hurricanes. God didn't intend for things to be this way and he has a plan and we would like to talk to you about some things." How do you guys normally respond to this? I've had a couple times where I thought about challenging them on why they believe what they do or saying no thanks and shutting the door but I didn't want to be rude so I told them I didn't have time but would take whatever material they wanted to give me. They gave me a pamphlet and asked when would be a better time to come back. "The weekend perhaps?" I gave the non-committal maybe some other time response and they left. Hope I didn't encourage them to come back again by being too nice.
> 
> Does anyone actually invite these people in and listen to their sales pitch? It's kind of like real world spam. It must work some percentage of time or they wouldn't keep doing it right?


I talk with them because we have several friends who either are or were JWs.  Had one who came by every Sunday evening for 6-8 months, then one evening something "clicked" and he never returned.  That is a long story.

Depends on the motive for having them return;

1) Learning what they believe - yes
2) Proselytize them - maybe, if you know how to talk to them
3) Argue with them - no
4) have them in for tea - maybe


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## atlashunter (Oct 29, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> What do you guys think about Ex 3:15? God also told Moses, “Say to the Israelites, ‘The LORD, the God of your fathers— the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob— has sent me to you.’ This is My name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered in every generation.  This is my name to be remembered by.. "Yahweh" translated "The Lord".



I think the author is trying to replace El with Yahweh.


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## transfixer (Oct 29, 2019)

Madman said:


> I talk with them because we have several friends who either are or were JWs.  Had one who came by every Sunday evening for 6-8 months, then one evening something "clicked" and he never returned.  That is a long story.
> 
> Depends on the motive for having them return;
> 
> ...




    It is virtually impossible to have a meaningful conversation with them,  they will not waver from what they have had instilled into them by the society,   in their minds their beliefs are the be all / end all,   they will not entertain any other possibilities,  even though their belief system was originated and still modified by men who are not perfect,  not infallible,    question them about their societies prediction that armageddon was going to happen in 1975 ,,,,   I was 12 or 13 yrs old at the time of that prediction,  was still being forced to be a part of that organization by my parents,   I remember being scared to death the world was going to end !     and then ,,,,  oh wow !    it didn't happen !     How could the one true religion have been wrong ?    Because the one true religion is based on certain individuals interpretations of the bible,    individuals who are imperfect just like everyone else in the world !   

       If you ever get one of them to open their mind to the possibility that the witnesses belief system might be flawed,,    then they start to question things,  and when they start to question they realize there are serious issues with the way the Witnesses believe.


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## kmh1031 (Oct 29, 2019)

Again I appreciate your comments and the personal experiences, but that is not the mainstream JW experience or teachings.

Impossible to have a meaningful conversion: We have meaningful conversations with millions of people everyday, and if they are interested in talking and listening, to our message, then fine, and we listen to their beliefs. We are out everyday, preaching and talking to millions.

Our beliefs are modified by imperfect men:  Is there any religions on earth today that have a perfect man or group of men directing them? IF so, please let me know.  
Granted we are imperfect, but the bible, the sword of the spirit, sets the matters straight and we adhere to it and its teachings.

I was around in that era, and I do know that many "read into" comments about 1975 but nothing was said from the organazation, or in writing that it was going to end in 1975.

My experience (and my brother was one of them) is that many JWs at the time read more  into what was published than was meant. 

Thus the runaway train of some on the date. Many who left, are no longer JWs and that is their choice as they did not use a sound mind and study of the bible "the son does not even know the day or hour") to reason out their false thinking.

As far as open minds to other things, what we believe and teach is from the bible, and not from an individual....test our beliefs against what is written. 
Compare our beliefs to the apostles, and the early congregation, and Jesus teachings. 

As they are not "traditions of men, or the tickling of the ears, or false teachings". 

If one feels they truly have the truth after "testing it" against the teachings of the bible, then why would one look elsewhere?

Clearly there was one true religion in Jesus day, and there is only one today. 
100,000 religions and splinter religions today cannot all lead to god nor please God.

I am sure you are aware that Jesus gave his followers several signs on how to identify the true religion today as he said oppressive wolves would enter the congregation....and twist the thinking,...etc

As previously said, I was in another religion before becoming a JW: Baptist, and my wife Methodist. We left those as we were seeking for the "truth", and could not get many simple bible questions answered by the church.  Then we started studying with JWs. 
65% of current JWs worldwide were of other religions, many for the same reason above.

Just remember, the scribes and pharisees of Jesus day thought they had the true religion...and were so stubborn in their beliefs, they could not see he was the Messiah, had the sayings of eternal life, and were blinded.

SO we all can open our minds and apply that litmus test to our own beliefs and see which closely follow those signs that Jesus gave.


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 29, 2019)

From the WatchTower, 1911 publication.

Notice 1874 and on timeline


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## kmh1031 (Oct 29, 2019)

Published in 1911....Just a question:
how much has other religions changed their thinking, beliefs, understanding in over 100 years? 
Many of those changes have been to the detriment of the bible and its teachings, including getting entrenched in politics, and the admission of Gays, participation in wars, and more?

1874 Second advent of the lord...vs 1914, end of the gentile times...careful calculation of a time period...according to bible chronology.

As 1914 shows by world signs Jesus has taken power of his kingdom. Remember? We pray for that int he Lords prayer...they kingdom come..

He clearly gave the signs of his presence, in Matt and Mark, Luke 21 and elsewhere.

1914 appears to be correct if you read secular history, and compare it to what Jesus said would be the sign of his "presence".

His presence is not a physical one...because he said "and just a little while longer and the world will behold me NO MORE?" SO what was it...thus the SIGNS of his coming, or presence...

It is noteworthy that the original greek word used here Parousia means Presence...not a viewing of actual event...or person.
Much like we see the leaves falling, cold in the air, we know fall is "present" 

What happened then in 1914? One of the first things he did was cast Satan and his demons out of heaven....as they had free rein to some and go....Peace taken away from the world..and WWI broke out.  Was peace taken away? Absolutely.....
DOnt take my word for it...not historical shows etc that shows that fact, before and after 1914.

Note Revelation 12:12
SO Jesus is actively working in this kingdom and soon will begin to fill those promises of the kingdom...Rev 21:34 and most importantly Daniel 2:44, end of all worldly govts, (political powers) and Babylon the great...false religion...


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## kmh1031 (Oct 29, 2019)

No one is required....to preach.....

However Once you learn the truths of the Bible....you want to teach others!

Next no promotions, clergy, preachers on payroll

Spiritual men must meet the qualifications in bible and ther families for Elders and Ministrial servants..examples in the congreation, not promoted...
Their work,
Shepherd the flock, visit, teach, take the lead as examples in the ministry, maintain the Kingdom Hall, handle much more....they are servants...workers  not a promotion in sense u discussed..


As footstep followers of Christ, we adhere to his command to preach...depending on our circumstances go door to door, business witness, use of carts at parks, and more to try to reach as many people as possible.
If one is a Christian....then it is critical we follow his commands... Matt 28:19-20... GO therefore and make disciples....not a casual request.

Also Matt 24;14.... this good news of the kingdom MUST be preached....

So it could me or my wife, an older JW, a young person, or a pioneer who is FUll time in the ministry as it is our Vocation...regardlesss....and secular work is our avocation.

Reason for coming back to visit....

.if you are interested in learning the truths of the Bible...simply put like Jesus, his disciples, and the early Christians...they went looking for honest hearted ones to talk to.
We are the same...if you seem interested...or would like to have us come back...the. We will..if not...we move on....no other motive as some have put it.


As far as the dead, resurrection, life on earth...the bible teaches that death will be done away with, perfect  life on earth restored. and many more blessings...
Jesus gave us a glimpse of that when he was here by raising the dead, curing the sick, and more...thus the message and benefit of his kingdom we all pray for.

Check out Ps 37...whole chapter about wicked done away with earth being restored and the meek inheriting the earth...
No burning ****....but **** the grave.. hades, Sheol, simply the grave.

Test the burn in ell for wicked... to this Scripture.. Romans 6:7 all who have died have been acquitted of their sin...? How does everlasting torture play into that scripture?

We did not make that up...that is the Bible teachings...ecc 9;5-10, Ps 146;3-4, Ezekiel 18:4 and more show when u die... u r simply dead.

Also..Over 100 prophesies in Bible about earth restored in future and righteous living on it.

Our reasons for coming back....is our heartfelt desire to help all gain accurate knowledge....not interested..... simply let us know...


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 29, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> Published in 1911....Just a question:
> how much has other religions changed their thinking, beliefs, understanding in over 100 years?
> Many of those changes have been to the detriment of the bible and its teachings, including getting entrenched in politics, and the admission of Gays, participation in wars, and more?
> 
> ...


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 29, 2019)

atlashunter said:


> I think the author is trying to replace El with Yahweh.


I am not in agreement with "replacing EI with Yahweh". Reason being, the theory that I believe to be true, the JEPD theory, did I get that right?, says that the OT, not all, the first books, called the..... well, I am drawing blanks in my memory, was comprised of different writers. One group calling God Yahweh, the other EI, and another, lol, I can't recall. These different traditions, i'll call it, had different versions of writings, which were blended together to get the transcripts we have today. Interesting reading even if one does not buy into it, but I do. I often point out this verse in regards to the so called "I am" name. Trins say his name is "I Am". But that is just not so. He clearly tells us here what his name is, Yahweh. No one would say, my name is Bill and in the same breath, the name to be used from generation to generation is Kyle. I should explain the I Am statement. The I am is not a name but rather, I will be who I will be. Like a blank check, waiting to see what figure gets written in.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 29, 2019)

So what will happen in 2875 and 2914? Who prophesied those dates? Considering that no one, not even Jesus knows when he will return, can someone reveal those two future events that will require Jesus to physically be on the earth?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 29, 2019)

I don't see the need of anyone of any denomination giving out dates of Biblical future events. Even if they know, what purpose would it serve mankind?
If God has already made out his calendar of events, there isn't really anything we can do to change His mind!


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 29, 2019)

kmh1031 said:


> Published in 1911....Just a question:
> how much has other religions changed their thinking, beliefs, understanding in over 100 years?
> Many of those changes have been to the detriment of the bible and its teachings, including getting entrenched in politics, and the admission of Gays, participation in wars, and more?
> 
> ...



1914 End of the Gentiles?
So that meant the end of the Gentile Kings? 

If the 2nd Advent is spiritual and not physical, isn't that the same as Preterism?


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## atlashunter (Oct 29, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> I am not in agreement with "replacing EI with Yahweh". Reason being, the theory that I believe to be true, the JEPD theory, did I get that right?, says that the OT, not all, the first books, called the..... well, I am drawing blanks in my memory, was comprised of different writers. One group calling God Yahweh, the other EI, and another, lol, I can't recall. These different traditions, i'll call it, had different versions of writings, which were blended together to get the transcripts we have today. Interesting reading even if one does not buy into it, but I do. I often point out this verse in regards to the so called "I am" name. Trins say his name is "I Am". But that is just not so. He clearly tells us here what his name is, Yahweh. No one would say, my name is Bill and in the same breath, the name to be used from generation to generation is Kyle. I should explain the I Am statement. The I am is not a name but rather, I will be who I will be. Like a blank check, waiting to see what figure gets written in.



There’s more to it than that. Deuteronomy makes a distinction between El and Yahweh and we have evidence that translations of that passage changed over time in an apparent attempt to cover that up. Exodus 6 says Abraham knew god as El Shaddai but didn’t know him by his name implying that El and Yahweh are the same deity. But El was known as the supreme deity in Canaanite polytheism which predates Israeli monotheism. It’s like saying oh yeah you knew me as this other guy but actually this was my real name all along. Your ancestors just didn’t know that.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 30, 2019)

atlashunter said:


> There’s more to it than that. Deuteronomy makes a distinction between El and Yahweh and we have evidence that translations of that passage changed over time in an apparent attempt to cover that up. Exodus 6 says Abraham knew god as El Shaddai but didn’t know him by his name implying that El and Yahweh are the same deity. But El was known as the supreme deity in Canaanite polytheism which predates Israeli monotheism. It’s like saying oh yeah you knew me as this other guy but actually this was my real name all along. Your ancestors just didn’t know that.


You retain info well. I believe I had read that before but totally was gone until you mention it. I should find time to refresh my memory on these topics


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## atlashunter (Oct 30, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> You retain info well. I believe I had read that before but totally was gone until you mention it. I should find time to refresh my memory on these topics



I’m not well read on it but it is a fascinating topic. It would be interesting to have the full story of Israel’s origin and their transition from polytheism to monotheism.


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