# A400 destroyed by Rio shotshell



## EastmanFireFighter

Me and my buddy was hunting dove yesterday and I heard him shoot and it sounded funny. He came over a few mins later screaming for me to "get up here and check me out, my gun just blew up in my face!". As his friend I knew something was wrong but as a firefighter for 11 years it wasn't as bad as it appeared. He has lead in his face, a swollen hand, possible slight concussion. He said he can't remember anything but " I stood up to shoot and then my gun was a few feet away and my ears were ringing and my face was burning." All in all it appears the shell was double loaded from the Rio manufacturer and it destroyed a brand new A400. The most important thing is that it could have killed my buddy. From what I have read he will be lucky to get his money back from Rio much less a new gun. Just wanted to put the info out there. Stay safe out there fellas.


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## joey1919

Glad he is going to be OK, that could have been much worse. 

How did you determine the shell was double loaded? Got any pics of the gun/shell?


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## WOODIE13

EastmanFireFighter said:


> Me and my buddy was hunting dove yesterday and I heard him shoot and it sounded funny. He came over a few mins later screaming for me to "get up here and check me out, my gun just blew up in my face!". As his friend I knew something was wrong but as a firefighter for 11 years it wasn't as bad as it appeared. He has lead in his face, a swollen hand, possible slight concussion. He said he can't remember anything but " I stood up to shoot and then my gun was a few feet away and my ears were ringing and my face was burning." All in all it appears the shell was double loaded from the Rio manufacturer and it destroyed a brand new A400. The most important thing is that it could have killed my buddy. From what I have read he will be lucky to get his money back from Rio much less a new gun. Just wanted to put the info out there. Stay safe out there fellas.



You said it sounded funny, sounds like to me he shot, "POP AND NO KICK" from a defective shell, leaving a wad stuck in the barrel, then shot again creating the explosion.

Got any pics of the gun?

Glad he is OK


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## EastmanFireFighter

A guy that we know in the past reloaded his like that on purpose and it did the exact same thing to his gun years ago. We did some research online and others said the same thing happened to them from a Rio sheel. The shell was destroyed.  I do have a pic of the gun and I will try and upload it. It is on my phone so it may not work.


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## WOODIE13

Did it blow up at the chamber or further down the barrel?


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## EastmanFireFighter

The chamber. Trying to post a pic. Give me a few to get on the computer to upload it.


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## EastmanFireFighter

Here is the gun...


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## EastmanFireFighter

Will try and post the shell later....


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## naildrvr

Glad he wasn't hurt worse. I've shot hundreds of rio's without a problem. Is he sure there were no kind of obstruction in the barrel? May have been a bad run from the factory. Hopefully they will replace his gun and cover any medical expenses.


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## across the river

How do you "double load" a shotgun shell.  The wad extends from the brass to the end, so you couldn't fit two wads in a shell and get the end crimped.   I agree with the poster above.   I think he had a bad shell before, and the wad got stuck in the barrel.  It will do that to a gun.


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## oops1

That's scary right there.. Glad he's ok


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## BriarPatch99

I believe that gun fired out of battery ...


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## injun joe

BriarPatch99 said:


> I believe that gun fired out of battery ...



It sure looks like it.


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## EastmanFireFighter

Fired out of battery? What exactly does that mean?


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## mattech

That's crazy


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## EastmanFireFighter

And double load means a double load of powder. Most times accidental. There are a few articles on the net that the same thing happened to with the Rio's.


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## Miguel Cervantes

EastmanFireFighter said:


> Fired out of battery? What exactly does that mean?



Before the shell is fully seated in the chamber.


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## EastmanFireFighter

Here is what's left of the shell....


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## EastmanFireFighter

Miguel, is there a way to tell for sure??


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## Miguel Cervantes

EastmanFireFighter said:


> Miguel, is there a way to tell for sure??



Not unless you're willing to inspect the bolt every time you chamber a shell. Easier done when firing a rifle. On a dove field with a shotgun, in the heat of battle, not so much. 

Looking at that shell pic, and the way it is folded it does appear it might not have been seated well though. It would never fold like that if fully chambered. Unless what you are showing in the picture was mangled in the process of extracting it from the gun. This can also happen with a slam fire (also referred to as out of battery) where the firing pin engages the primer prior to the bolt being fully closed.

If the bolt is fully closed and engaged, barring a defect in the gun, that is hard to replicate. 

Disclaimer, I am no gunsmith nor firearms expert, so there may be others with much more experience that can contradict / correct what I am telling you.


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## BriarPatch99

Fired out of Battery means that the bolt was not locked up into the barrel before the shell fired ...   that gun has a rotating bolt head that locks up solid into the barrel with several lugs holding the bolt to the barrel ....  

Not saying that the shell is not at fault ... but I would not rule out a gun problem either.... or some other cause either...

You can bet that that type action has been tested with proof loads way way way beyond what a normal shell would yield ...


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## EastmanFireFighter

The way the shell is was not extracted. When it did whatever it did it kicked it and the metal from the gun out of his hands. He had to go looking for it and the piece missing from the gun.


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## BriarPatch99

Search the internet for Berreta A400 bolt wear/failures ... quite a few stories about those also ...


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## Miguel Cervantes

EastmanFireFighter said:


> The way the shell is was not extracted. When it did whatever it did it kicked it and the metal from the gun out of his hands. He had to go looking for it and the piece missing from the gun.



I'd vote for a gun defect then. No way a shell should eject from a gun with the bolt fully locked and secured. Even with a wad stuck in the barrel, if the bolt were secured the barrel should have failed first.

See my prior disclaimer though.


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## BriarPatch99

That gun also has a firing pin spring ... unlike say an AR type action where the firing pin is free floating ...  

It is unlikely that it slam fired as in a AR style ... but the firing pin spring could have broken causing a "slam fire"...


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## WOODIE13

What did it sound like when you said it sounded funny before he shouted for you?  Was it like a BLOOP?


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## EastmanFireFighter

Like a cannon! It was a different sound from when he had been shooting. It kinda sounded like when you shoot close to a metal building and it bounces off. If you have ever heard that sound you know exactly how it sounds.


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## MERCing

My guess would be a bolt/carrier failure. The barrel doesn't appear to be bulged in the chamber area. The receiver is damaged and that would lead me to think the shell discharged without the bolt being locked and let the shell partially eject back into the receiver without any support of the chamber and blowing out the receiver. That would explain why the base is blown off of the shell. If the prior shot had been a squib load, which typically leaves the wad stuck in the barrel and would cause a barrel bulge or split with the next shot, he probably would've had to manually eject the shell and should've know something was wrong.


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## Luke0927

Looks like Beretta might owe him a new gun.


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## Semi-Pro

curious, is he left or right handed.


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## EastmanFireFighter

Semi, he is a south paw. That's why it blew up in his face. Had he been a right hander it would have blown away from him.


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## mattech

I wonder if the shell crimp was bad.


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## EastmanFireFighter

We have no idea....that's why I posted here to try and get some feedback. I told him he should just call and talk with a retta rep because they would have a professional opinion/view and go from there. They may have some sort of knowledge if this has happened before and what exactly causes it.


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## mattech

No doubt, I would contact berreta also. Along with Rio.


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## BriarPatch99

Interesting read ....

http://www.shotgunlife.com/shotguns/tom-roster/important-information-about-shotshell-pressures.html


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## injun joe

I had a rifle blow up out of battery and the results were quite similar to your picture. Of course, this is no proof that this is what happened to your shotgun. It seems to me that if you had fired on a stuck wad, the wad would have made it down the barrel a little farther and  you would have bulged or split the barrel. I have seen that happen a time or two.


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## srb

*This...*



mattech said:


> No doubt, I would contact berreta also. Along with Rio.



Best advice here...
Glad he is ok ,That had the makeing  of something bad!


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## Flaustin1

BriarPatch99 said:


> I believe that gun fired out of battery ...



Exactly what I was thinking.


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## Flaustin1

Im thinking even if it were a double charge, that action could handle it.  Its designed to handle 3.5" magnums that operate at a much higher pressure than the field loads.  

Im no smith either but I can almost guarantee it fired out of battery.


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## dom

definitely let us know what Beretta tells him.


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## EastmanFireFighter

Will do...


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## EastmanFireFighter

He just got off of the phone  Beretta and they are sayimg that it was the Rio shell that was "double loaded" . He told him to send the gun in and they would check for wear but that the wear "will only go so far" .....He is calling Rio now


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## Davey

It could have been much worse, glad your buddy is ok.


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## The Rodney

Send to Beretta.  IMO the gun fired out of battery I do not think it was the ammo.  Unless there is a better pic of the barrel where we see bulge.  Regardless I am so glad your pal is okay.  One reason I wear safety glasses and ear pro.  Was your pal wearing either?


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## EastmanFireFighter

There is no bulge in the barrel. Everything happened where you see it. And yes, eye protection was being worn or it would have caused damage. There were areas where fragments hit the glasses.


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## EastmanFireFighter

He just got off the phone with Rio and he said they were more concerned with his and the safety of others instead of blaming others. They wanted the shell and the rest of the shells he had with that lot number. He wanted the lot number immediately so that he could get the info out there.  Rio said they have never had a case that done that but "anything is possible". He said Rio was very nice and customer service friendly.


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## dom

are they going to pay for his $1600 gun?


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## BriarPatch99

How does Berretta know that the shell was double loaded with out any evidence of it being so ... 

At least Rio is willing to say that it is possible ....

There are some puzzle pieces missing ...


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## casey0802

I have shot rio's for years.... I order 3 cases every year for dove season. I have said for years they are a dirty shell (meaning powder in my eyes or on my arms) I have shot over 10,000 shell and never had a shell do that. Never have seen a double load... I shoot 3 3/4 gm highbrass... dirty but never anything like that or misfire....


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## Hooty Hoot

Unless that has some barrel or chamber damage that we can't see, I believe that shell fired out of the chamber. If Baretta doesn't do the right thing, I will never own one of them.


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## Flaustin1

X2 Hooty Hoot.  If it was a double charge, their should be damage to the bolt lugs at a minimum.  

Im still betting it fired out of battery.


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## EastmanFireFighter

I am curious to see how this is going to play out also men. The fact that Beretta jumped conclusions and then made him pay out of his pocket to send the gun  to them was crazy in itself. Something definitely sounds and smells fishy with Beretta.....will definitely keep you guys updated


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## BriarPatch99

We'll be waiting to hear the end results ... 

Hope you took plenty of photos from various angles and of different parts of the gun and the shell ...   hope the guy does not need them, but it is always good to have ... just in case...


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## EastmanFireFighter

Briar, that's the second thing I told him to do while we were in the field after it happened. Of course the first thing was for us to get his face cleaned up and see how bad it was.


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## Skinnyman

I am by no stretch a gunsmith but if the load was double loaded and the firearm functioned correctly would the damage not be further to the front and not in the receiver?


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## mattech

I curious to see what the end result is. I've been eyeballing that A400 for a couple years. Not that I'm in a hurry to drop $1600, but if they won't back thier equipment, I will go with someone else.


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## Killinstuff

I'd take it back to where I bought it and let them deal with the gun and Beretta.  The gun store should have a gunsmith that can say "this is what happened".  A shotgun shell could never do that to a gun.  All guns are all proof tested for much higher pressure than a double load can produce to protect the manufactures from lawsuits when morons double or triple load their handloads thinking more is better. It happens every day. I bet Beretta has a 500 lawsuits on their legal teams desks right now.


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## tucker80

Gunsmith at the dealer is the best idea I've heard. That way he'll have somebody on his side and not just a CSR trying to pass the buck. If they (Beretta) have a problem they need to own up before somebody gets hurt or worse. Wouldn't be the first time a gun had a recall. And good job to Rio, not afraid to take responsibility if need be.


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## mizzippi jb

Arrow3 had a bad experience with Beretta CS as well with an a400 shotgun if I remember correctly.  Maybe he will see this post and chime in


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## EastmanFireFighter

The "gun dealer" where he purchased it in Warner Robins didn't have much to say about it today when I dropped it off to them to mail to Beretta.


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## releehweoj

Killinstuff said:


> I'd take it back to where I bought it and let them deal with the gun and Beretta.  The gun store should have a gunsmith that can say "this is what happened".  A shotgun shell could never do that to a gun.  All guns are all proof tested for much higher pressure than a double load can produce to protect the manufactures from lawsuits when morons double or triple load their handloads thinking more is better. It happens every day. I bet Beretta has a 500 lawsuits on their legal teams desks right now.



There was a story about a similar incident involving an O/U and Rio shells last year: http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=812971&highlight=


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## gcobb

I was just considering buying this same model gun. Not anymore! Glad is was not any worse.


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## Oldstick

tucker80 said:


> Gunsmith at the dealer is the best idea I've heard. That way he'll have somebody on his side and not just a CSR trying to pass the buck. If they (Beretta) have a problem they need to own up before somebody gets hurt or worse. Wouldn't be the first time a gun had a recall. And good job to Rio, not afraid to take responsibility if need be.



Another thing, if they have a health insurance plan, the insurance co. is almost certainly going to investigate who is liable for the accident and expenses and there will probably be some type of arbitration process between them and the two other companies involved.  I don't see how at least one of the two sports companies would not be found liable.

Very glad it didn't turn out worse.


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## Miguel Cervantes

Oldstick said:


> Another thing, if they have a health insurance plan, the insurance co. is almost certainly going to investigate who is liable for the accident and expenses and there will probably be some type of arbitration process between them and the two other companies involved.  I don't see how at least one of the two sports companies would not be found liable.
> 
> Very glad it didn't turn out worse.



Usually once a claim is brought settlement is sought in lieu of a lengthy drawn out suit to keep it out of the public eye. Disclosures of liability are usually sealed at settlement, which prevents anyone from talking about it after the fact.


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## Oldstick

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Usually once a claim is brought settlement is sought in lieu of a lengthy drawn out suit to keep it out of the public eye. Disclosures of liability are usually sealed at settlement, which prevents anyone from talking about it after the fact.



True in general, but the medical insurance company is not worried about the public eye, they are only worried about whether someone else should be liable, so at least they are on the injured parties side in that respect.  I know over many years, every single claim for one of our family of five's boo-boos, Blue Cross contacted us wanting to know if it was an accident with other parties involved (such as at school events, fights, other's homes, auto accident etc.) or just an accident at our home.

So at least the two suspect companies would be under the scrutiny of a third big company with equivalent money, influence and lawyers.


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## GLS

If the mishap had been the result of a jammed wad from a misfire and a subsequent shot, the gun wouldn't have cycled after misfire unless it was either manually cycled or the wad had passed the gas port, and even then, there might not have been enough pressure to cycle it.  If it had passed the gas port, the damage would have been up the barrel where the metal is thinner than in the breech.  It makes more sense that the round wasn't fully chambered when it exploded.


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## rydert

I have had a A400 Xplor Unico since they first came out. I have  shot thousands and thousands of shells through it. Probably half of those were Rios. The only trouble I have had with it is, it not loading a shell because the end was not crimped correctly. If I ever wear this one out, I get another just like it to replace it. Your friend was lucky he was wearing eye protection. Keep us posted on this.


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## Arrow3

mizzippi jb said:


> Arrow3 had a bad experience with Beretta CS as well with an a400 shotgun if I remember correctly.  Maybe he will see this post and chime in



Worst customer service I have ever encountered. I will never give Beretta another dollar if I can help it.


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## dom

Arrow3 said:


> Worst customer service I have ever encountered. I will never give Beretta another dollar if I can help it.



what do you shoot (know off topic, just curious)


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## Arrow3

dom said:


> what do you shoot (know off topic, just curious)



I have the A400. I assume that's what your asking?


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## EastmanFireFighter

Beretta inspected the gun and said that the cause was an "overloaded shell".


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## Miguel Cervantes

EastmanFireFighter said:


> Beretta inspected the gun and said that the cause was an "overloaded shell".



Like I stated in the beginning, I'm not a gunsmith, but I've read enough in this thread, and now with the verdict in from Beretta, which I disagree with, looks like I won't ever be a Beretta gun owner.


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## Luke0927

So how does a double loaded dove load compare to 3.5" mag?  What was the spec on the shells he was shooting?


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## BriarPatch99

Beretta has an opinion ...  How about Rio's opinion?  I disagree with Beretta, but IF I were Beretta ... I'd be blaming anyone and everyone else also! 

I still say that IF that bolt was locked as it should have been... even with a "so called double load" ... in the chamber .... the damage would have been in the chamber area and forward. 

Sad part of this story is that now nobody will ever lay eyes on that gun again ... so no other will ever be able to pass judgement except Beretta... I would demand that the gun be returned ... probably won't be ...


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## BriarPatch99

For those asking about "overloads" ... please read this link ... it may not be all the answers about "overloads" ... but it is a good read ...

http://www.shotgunlife.com/shotguns/...pressures.html

SAAMI pressure for 12 GA 3.5" Magnum is 14,000 PSI


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## EastmanFireFighter

If I remember correctly it was the 2 3/4 #8 11/4 load. As for Rio, still waiting to here back from them. I have wanted the A-400 but after this customer service I will NEVER own anything they produce.


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## Arrow3

EastmanFireFighter said:


> If I remember correctly it was the 2 3/4 #8 11/4 load. As for Rio, still waiting to here back from them. I have wanted the A-400 but after this customer service I will NEVER own anything they produce.



I can honestly say after my dealings with them they will never get another dollar  out of me.....


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## joepuppy

I spoke with him today, and he is still waiting on Rio to have another meeting and get back with him.


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## EastmanFireFighter

Rio called him and said they are going to buy him a new gun.


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## oops1

EastmanFireFighter said:


> Rio called him and said they are going to buy him a new gun.



Good to hear


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## Arrow3

EastmanFireFighter said:


> Rio called him and said they are going to buy him a new gun.



Now there's great customer service!


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## mizzippi jb

Hopefully not another beretta


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## BriarPatch99

Rio did right .... 

Beretta not too sure of ...


Did Rio offer any details or explanations?


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## GLS

Beretta examined the gun and reported ammo defect.  Ammo company made good.  Had there been a serious personal injury I doubt if Rio would have been quick to replace gun.  I can't imagine an ammo company replacing a gun out of the kindness of its heart unless it felt responsibility.  In light of Rio's action,  I'm not so sure about blaming Beretta despite my earlier comment. Beretta also owns Benelli, btw.


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## northgeorgiasportsman

GLS said:


> Beretta examined the gun and reported ammo defect.  Ammo company made good.  Had there been a serious personal injury I doubt if Rio would have been quick to replace gun.  I can't imagine an ammo company replacing a gun out of the kindness of its heart unless it felt responsibility.



^^^This^^^


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## tucker80

That says a lot for Rio, and I'm surprised, this thing was resolved in less than 30 days, 2 big company's and even some finger pointing. Not a bad turn around


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## Flaustin1

I still say it was the guns fault.  No way a double charge would've cause receiver damage like that.

The gun fire out of battery.


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