# This is why you kill coyotes



## porkbelly

Was reading another forum and thought you all might be interested in this.




http://www.pensacolafishingforum.com/f48/why-you-kill-coyotes-102774/


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## treemanjohn

I saw those pictures and the video last year. It's all - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -. That buck had no fight


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## hershelbcjmw

Saw that last year also.


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## jimmy ballard jr

Why kill a Coyote for Trying to eat???????????????


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## Ff2012

jimmy ballard jr said:


> Why kill a Coyote for Trying to eat???????????????


I hope youre being sarcastic


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## southerndraw

I'm on a new club and they don't want members to shoot the yotes. When I was told that I was so stunned I was speechless. That was a first.


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## Fairlanedave

Coyotes are bad news kill em all


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## BowHard

Wow I wonder why that Buck just stood there and took those yotes nipping him. Id love to line up every yote and blow them away. shoot all of em!


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## GTHunter007

Humans and our anger/jealousy of other predators besides ourselves sharing our woods.  Wonder if that buck was already sick?  who knows.  How many whitetails have you ever seen that would stand in one spot for 2 hrs while dogs were around them biting at em?  I personally have never seen a healthy animal do that.


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## Lparker73

wow


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## Clint Shook




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## Navy07

Theyre conservatonist if you think about it. lol


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## olcowman

GTHunter007 said:


> Humans and our anger/jealousy of other predators besides ourselves sharing our woods.



I gave up a long time ago... I attribute it to just plain greed, along with the lack of skills (and motivation to learn the skills) required to actually harvest game in a fair chase scenario. Folks have forgotten the fact that this incredible resource (our state's current deer herd) was the result of sustained efforts of conservation and accomplished decades ago by those who valued the traditionalistic aspects of sport hunting.

In a sense, it isn't that much of a surprise to me... the last few generations has produced scores of people unwilling to 'work' for an atonement and expecting to be compensated for little or no effort. The competition from a predator species is an unacceptable obstacle in one's pursuit of what they feel is somehow their 'God given right' to walk a few yards into the woods and kill dozens of deer each year.

Personally, it ain't going to effect me one way or another in the long run... but this absolute lack of willingness to share our woods with a reasonable, manageable number of predators, along with all the pictures and stories publicized by those perpetuating this sort of self imposed eradication... well it just doesn't play out well to the non-hunting public and it plays right into the hands of the antis.


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## lbzdually

It's not greed or jealousy that drives us to want to kill coyotes, it's the fact that they indiscrimately everything they can.  They kill, eat what they want at that time and leave the rest to waste.  They will kill until there is nothing else to kill.  They breed without regard to optimum population for a given area.  In other words they are that hunting slob that shoots deer at night, cuts off the horns, gets the backstraps and leaves the rest.  Everywhere they are not hunted into oblivion, they overpopulate and decimate deer populations.  If we kill every one we see, we will never kill them all as they are too wily.


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## Oconostota

lbzdually said:


> It's not greed or jealousy that drives us to want to kill coyotes, it's the fact that they indiscrimately everything they can.  They kill, eat what they want at that time and leave the rest to waste.  They will kill until there is nothing else to kill.  They breed without regard to optimum population for a given area.  In other words they are that hunting slob that shoots deer at night, cuts off the horns, gets the backstraps and leaves the rest.  Everywhere they are not hunted into oblivion, they overpopulate and decimate deer populations.  If we kill every one we see, we will never kill them all as they are too wily.



I don't agree with most of that.  Heck, house cats kill just about everything moving that they see, and rarely even eat any of it.  Should they all be killed?  I think coyotes kill to eat, just like any other predator.  I do not agree at all that they just go around killing things, purely for entertainment (or whatever reason some folks imagine).  And they breed to procreate, just like all other animals.  They are not on some "mission from Satan".

Coyotes do belong here.  They do play an important role in nature, just as every single other animal does.  Sure, I would kill one that was specifically causing me damage or if I felt personally threatened.  But out in the woods, there is not a legitimate reason at all to just kill them in general.  And I am saddened greatly to read about folks "shooting every one they see".  And even more so than saddened, I am very disgusted by actions like that.  I'm sure quite a few other folks are, too.

Just my opinion.  And just like with most every other wild animal, I think it's pretty cool every time I see a coyote.  They are definitely interesting critters.


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## fireretriever

They do not belong here. They have migrated in from the west. Get your facts straight. They are hard on deer at fawning and will whipe out a raddit population. So there are some facts for ya not just my opinion. Gogle coyote affects on deer in SC there have also been studies done at UGA and Auburn. Shoot them or trap as many of them as you can, you will never get them all but you can thin them out.


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## River Rambler

Hold on...your facts may be facts, but they do not support your argument.

Not too long ago there were bigger and badder predators in GA....wolves. So the role HAS existed a lot longer than your mention of coyotes. Coyotes just filled the gap after we eradicated the local wolf around 1900.

Nature has a way of filling the gaps.
Kill all the coyotes, something else will eventually take it's place.


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## Oconostota

And because coyotes migrated here doesn't mean they don't belong here.  Happens all the time in nature.  They weren't imported like Russian hogs, or like Russian hogs interbred with feral hogs.  Hogs do not belong here, because they did not come here on their own, naturally.  Same thing with rainbow trout.  That's people screwing with nature - not nature changing on its own.

It is thought that coyotes came eastward from the west, then southward, interbreeding with wolves from up north.

It's the hatred of 'yotes that I find so disturbing.  Very much like the type of people who kill every snake they see.  Or the type of people who automatically dislike all black people.  A _learned_ behavior.


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## olcowman

lbzdually said:


> It's not greed or jealousy that drives us to want to kill coyotes, it's the fact that they indiscrimately everything they can.  They kill, eat what they want at that time and leave the rest to waste.  They will kill until there is nothing else to kill.  They breed without regard to optimum population for a given area.  In other words they are that hunting slob that shoots deer at night, cuts off the horns, gets the backstraps and leaves the rest.  Everywhere they are not hunted into oblivion, they overpopulate and decimate deer populations.  If we kill every one we see, we will never kill them all as they are too wily.



I'm genuinely curious... do you have any links to any of these "facts" you mentioned here? Got any examples of instances where coyotes "decimated deer populations" because they weren't "hunted into oblivion"?


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## Nicodemus

"Think like a mountain".

Aldo Leopold. My thoughts follow his on this subject.


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## lbzdually

olcowman said:


> I'm genuinely curious... do you have any links to any of these "facts" you mentioned here? Got any examples of instances where coyotes "decimated deer populations" because they weren't "hunted into oblivion"?



I can provide anecdotal evidence with what I've personally experienced and studies at UGA which back this up also.  The past two years, I've been hearing more and more coyotes around my house.  This coincides with the land next to me being posted from anyone hunting it.  In theory, the deer population should have gone up, especially since the white oak crop was huge this year in the woods around my house.  However,  I've only seen 2 deer this year and no fawns.  

Same thing with our club in Twiggs county.  We had a trapper come in about 7 years ago and for the next 2-3 years after that, our deer population exploded.  No one had trapped since then and the coyotes are taking over again.  Deer sightings are down, even though the land next to ours is now basically unhunted-was Ocmulgee WMA, now owned by private individual who trophy hunts.  

Here is actual factual evidence with studies in Georgia.  http://www.foxworthyoutdoors.com/blog/an-overview-of-coyote-predation-on-fawns1

http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.2193/2009-263

http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/story/1278045202u9wk4szshbk

There's a reason they kill every one they see out west and it ain't because they are jealous.     Coyotes won't stop until their food supply is gone from an area.  Same can be said about every predator.   Animals don't have a conscience, they don't understand management principals, they just kill.   

I've provided both studies and anecdotal evidence, does that change you're mind any at all, or was your mind made up from the get-go?


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## lbzdually

Nicodemus said:


> "Think like a mountain".
> 
> Aldo Leopold. My thoughts follow his on this subject.



No doubt that predators have a place in an ecosystem, but they have to be managed and hunted just like deer and other animals do.  I said 'hunted into oblivion' for a reason, you will never kill all coyotes, they are too smart.  If you kill every one you see, you will still leave many more to breed and populate.  If you've ever watched Predator Quest or Predator Nation, they try to kill every coyote they call in.  They don't shoot one and call it a day.  Out west, they have decades more experience with dealing with yotes and I trust their warnings on how a coyote population will explode if left unchecked.


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## Nicodemus

lbzdually said:


> No doubt that predators have a place in an ecosystem, but they have to be managed and hunted just like deer and other animals do.  I said 'hunted into oblivion' for a reason, you will never kill all coyotes, they are too smart.  If you kill every one you see, you will still leave many more to breed and populate.  If you've ever watched Predator Quest or Predator Nation, they try to kill every coyote they call in.  They don't shoot one and call it a day.  Out west, they have decades more experience with dealing with yotes and I trust their warnings on how a coyote population will explode if left unchecked.





I don`t worry about it. Nature has given us a tool here in this part of the country that they don`t have out west. Believe it or not, coyotes will never "take over". I`ll shoot one on occasion, but I don`t hate or indescrimenately go out of my way to kill one, or any other predator. I do believe that them, like all game, should be managed. But the last place I want to hunt is a steril or safe swamp or woods that has no predators. Some of the rage I`ve seen directed at coyotes and other predators here is just plain unnatural.

I also believe that in a healthy enviroment, they won`t hurt the population of any prey animal. I live right smack dab in the middle of such an enviroment. In 20 years, I have seen no such damage that any critter in was in peril. 

Just my observations, and I`m not tryin` to change your opinion.


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## Okie Hog

Coyotes in SW Oklahoma kill over one third of the deer fawns.  So far this year i've called in and killed over 30 coyotes.  Every one i can draw a bead on gets shot, even while deer hunting.  This is a good coyote:

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll268/alsaqr/DSC01213.jpg


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## olcowman

lbzdually said:


> I've provided both studies and anecdotal evidence, does that change you're mind any at all, or was your mind made up from the get-go?



http://bowsite.com/bowsite/features/articles/deer/seminars/coyotes/

http://www.adirondackexplorer.org/stories/deerdebate.php

http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/2010/09/22/deermanagement_wt_102predators/

http://www.grandviewoutdoors.com/de...010/666/predator-control-help-deer-population

Well yes my mind is "made up" for the most part... but for a number of simple reasons. To start with, for every coyote hating link you find on the web, I can find ten that either dispute the findings all together or at least find error within the logic used to reach such an opinion. 

Two big examples are the current favorites thrown out as 'evidence' by all those in favor of blasting away. The UGA/SRS study which concluded that coyote predation on fawns in the study group was 60%. What they failed to include in their findings is that the research was conducted during two of the dryest years in recorded history. What they did not publish was the fact that the following year, with normal to slightly above average precipitation, that the same study groups experienced an 80% fawn recruitment rate.

The other oft mentioned study on this subject, from Alabama, gleaned results by comparing a high fence environment with the predators removed...  to the surrounding, naturally existing ecosystem. One of my links points out the blatant flaws within this collation right up front, but goes further and actually proves that this body of work eventually ended up highlighting the problems with 'extreme' predator control carried out in the control group.

Please keep in mind that my opinions in this matter aren't based solely on any particular group of research and/or ancedotal evidence... I have done quite a bit of reading and heard both sides of the debate... and honestly, it was mostly good ol' commmon sense that really 'made up my mind'! 

Common sense tells me things like... coyotes and other predators have co-existed alongside deer, within the same environs and under every condition imaginable, for eons and eons... it also gives me insight to pause and consider all the other corroborated factors right here in our state that negatively effect the whitetail population (i.e. loss of habitat, decline in cereal grain farming, inclement weather, increases in legal harvest limits, etc.)... common sense also makes me realize that I am probably wasting my time trying to carry on an intelligent discussion concerning this topic when I read posts proclaiming _"Coyotes won't stop until their food supply is gone from an area. Same can be said about every predator. Animals don't have a conscience, they don't understand management principals, they just kill." _, along with  _"There's a reason they kill every one they see out west"_

Do you honestly believe this? The first assertion is ridiculous and absolutely unfounded in the sense that it portrays predators, in any number, as detrimental and devastating to their natural habitat. Reflect a moment on your theory presented here and help me understand (and find me some examples please!) how this fits into what we commonly refer to the 'balance of nature' and also explain how any sort of prey species could survive and subsequently evolve with this sort of impact within it's sphere of habitation? And regarding 'folks out west'... well I have, in the past 30 years or so, traveled, worked, and even lived for a few years, in parts of the western U.S. and Canada, and a great majority of these experiences (like 99%) involved dealing directly with rural people and rural areas, through either the agriculure industries or in the pursuit of outdoor recreational activities (hunting and fishing mostly)... I can assure you with the utmost confidence that the residents there spend very little effort, if any with the attempted extermination of any predator, much less a coyote. Nothing could be farther from the truth...

The smaller, western cousin of our own coyote occupies it's own niche in that realm and it, and other predators are not strangers to the woodsmen and farmers who have spent their lives in the more wide open, less populated sections of the continent. I never run up on anyone, anywhere out there with the notion that they 'had to' run fetch a gun and blast away at any coyote they happened to come across? 

Try researching a little further... consider something other than some predator hunting tv show's attempt to sell you an expensive scope or technologically advanced call system for some real facts relating to coyotes that you can draw your conclusions from? I certainly would make more of an effort myself to examine all the evidence I could (well... I actually did), before I would decide to embark on a self-imposed 'predator apocolypse' and absolutely would not go off 'half-cocked' when I suddenly felt compelled to explain my reasoning and justification to my peers? 

I don't think anyone really stops to consider what sort of overall impact statements like these _'We all need to kill all the coyotes (or bobcats or whatever) we see'_ make. Is it the tenet we want our kids to adapt to? Is it how we wish our sport and it's participants to be portrayed to the non-hunting public? Are we playing right into the antis hands? Why even say such a thing, or post gruesome details and pictures of entire litters of dead pups, or even worse... offer unethical and/or illegal ideas and experiences to eradicate these animals? Un-substantiated anecdotal observations, a couple of disputed studies, and a tv show you saw on the outdoor channel... that's it?


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## olcowman

lbzdually said:


> If you've ever watched Predator Quest or Predator Nation, they try to kill every coyote they call in.  They don't shoot one and call it a day.  Out west, they have decades more experience with dealing with yotes and I trust their warnings on how a coyote population will explode if left unchecked.


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## Oconostota

*oldcowman*, thank you for posting documented facts and carefully thought out insight regarding the truth.  I'm glad to see I'm not the only reasonably-minded outdoorsman on this forum...and in the woods.  Well, not saying I'm always reasonably-minded in everything,


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## Randy

The "bait station" is more the cause than the yote.


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## lbzdually

olcowman said:


>



So you don't believe in how people out west, who have far more experience in dealing with coyotes than you ever will, do things.       

Read what Okie said-slowly so that it may sink in just a bit.  His experience is a preview of what we have coming if we continue to think like you do.  I'm sure just a few years ago in Oklahoma, they never thought coyotes would kill over a 1/3 of deer fawns.  Have you heard about what started happening in Chattanooga just a few years ago?  Coyote population within the city started exploding, killing pets, chasing people-until they started allowing hunting for them within city limits.   

I see your name is olcowman.  I'm guessing that means you either deal in cows or used to.  If you see a coyote around when cows are calving, are you just going to leave them be, hoping they will be gracious enough to not kill your livelihood?   How do you think most people who raise cows feel about coyotes?  I'd bet they feel closer to how I feel than how you feel, so either you are being a contrarian just to be one or you've painted yourself into a corner.  Which is it?  

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/2009/apr/21/coyote-numbers-grow/

http://deltafarmpress.com/livestock/coyotes-create-problems-arkansas-cattle-producers

http://southwestfarmpress.com/livestock/coyote-most-adaptable-predator-threatens-livestock-and-pets

http://www.bendbulletin.com/article/20091119/SPORTS05/911190366/

http://www.farmandranchguide.com/news/livestock/coyotes-lead-the-pack-for-predator-related-livestock-losses/article_a9f8bf5a-6da9-571d-abf7-8576be1fc69b.html

http://www.johnnfelsher.com/pasturecoyotes.html

http://www.scholastic.com/teachers/article/call-coyote

http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/for/for37/for37.htm

http://forum.gofoxpro.com/fp_forums/archive/index.php/t-5444.html


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## lbzdually

Notice how these articles cover not only the western US,, but also Michigan and Georgia.  Seems they all feel that coyotes are a big problem, especially if fawn recruitment is low.  But no, let's ignore the coyote problem and hope it does get as bad as the western US.   

http://www.americanhunter.org/ArticlePage.aspx?id=2121&cid=47

http://www.northamericanwhitetail.com/2010/09/22/deermanagement_wt_102predators/

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/outdoors/coyotes-still-main-deer-predator-up-study-shows-2f46vqt-139596073.html

http://chronicle.augusta.com/sports/outdoors/rob-pavey/2012-06-15/coyote-predation-could-force-changes-deer-management

http://www.biggamehunt.net/forum/coyotes-deer-predation

http://www.carlsams.com/inthewoods/2011/02/whitetail-deer-predators-coyote-tops-the-list/

http://www.foxworthyoutdoors.com/blog/an-overview-of-coyote-predation-on-fawns1

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/outdoors/115154119.html

http://dongasaway.wordpress.com/2010/06/07/a-deer-coyote-study/


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## lbzdually

Remember olcowman, you're the one who started calling names, calling people greedy and lazy just because they feel that killing a predator is a good way to insure that our deer herd will still be here for future generations to hunt.   I think you would be good to not throw stones and respect what other do on their land.  If do you do not feel that killing coyotes is a good management practice on your land, then don't kill coyotes, that's your business.  However, you calling others greedy and lazy for simply managing their wildlife population on their land as they see fit is uncalled for.


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## olcowman

lbzdually said:


> Remember olcowman, you're the one who started calling names, calling people greedy and lazy just because they feel that killing a predator is a good way to insure that our deer herd will still be here for future generations to hunt.   I think you would be good to not throw stones and respect what other do on their land.  If do you do not feel that killing coyotes is a good management practice on your land, then don't kill coyotes, that's your business.  However, you calling others greedy and lazy for simply managing their wildlife population on their land as they see fit is uncalled for.



I have no problem whatsoever with 'managing' predators along with game animals... never have. My response is specifically aimed at the idea that eradication is the only answer. The post in which you describe how predators indiscrimently kill all prey animals within their environs because they can't grasp the concept of 'management principals' is one which I feel is 100% wrong and in my opinion, one more in a long line of misconceptions and a blatant distortion of the facts concerning the coyote. If this hypothesis was even partly based on truth we wouldn't be having this discussion right now because all the predators would have 'ate' themselves out of existence eons ago without humans around to control their gluttonous appetites?

Predator control is an essential part of optimum management practices in certain situations, which are often the result of previous mismanagement or apathetic overuse of natural resources beforehand. If left alone, nature will inevitably enforce it's own version of 'predator control' in some form or another. The notion that we need to 'shoot everyone we see', along with some of the schemes I've seen posted on this forum (including poisoning, hanging treble hooks baited with raw meat, digging up litters of pups, purposely gut shooting, etc.)... these sort of things are the only reason I ever responded to start with. 

To sum it up, I've been hearing for thirty or so years that coyotes are eating up all the deer, rabbits, turkeys, and other game animals, not to mention eating up whole herds of cows and chasing people's kids around the neighborhood. Somehow or another, this unfounded fear and hatred has bled over and now is starting to include all predators in general. Well the state is still loaded with deer, there's more turkeys around my place than I've ever seen, and rabbits are eating my garden up as quick as I plant it. I have yet to run up on anyone who has had to pull their youngun' out of the jaws of a coyote? 

And yes sir, I have been involved is some form of the livestock industry most of my life... I have seen coyotes chasing rats in hayfields, found their dens right in the pasture alongside cows, have witnessed their numbers suddenly amp up during calving season in order to take advantage of the protein rich after-births and occasional discarded still-birth that I experienced (which equates to the number of yotes often seen during deer season due to the abrupt appearance of gut piles through out the woods)... but I have as of yet to see any 100% proof whatsoever of coyote predation on a healthy, mature individual. I have heard the tales and seen a calf or two who's demise was attributed to yotes, but the evidence suggested the act was actually perpetuated by domestic dogs which is often the case in these sort of reports. Most of the predation on livestock occurs in the western part of the country where the management is much less intense and the herd is spread over large areas. The 6.4% loss reported includes all predators and when it does involve coyotes it more than likely involves some sort of extenuating circumstance like pro-longed labor difficultly, downed/injured animals, etc.... coyotes just ain't built, nor do they run in pacts large enough, to facilitate them taking on a 1000lb cow.

As I stated earlier, evidence of all kinds and supporting both sides of this debate is available on the web, and I guess as you pointed out by the hunting shows you've been watching on the tv. I have looked at a heap of it, (tried to cull those anecdotal and questionable accounts  like many you have linked in your posts), I also considered my own personal observations and experiences over the years... after weighing all the data and interjecting a little common sense based on scientific principal and existing historical records... I can't for the life of me see why anyone feels we can't share our hunting experience with nature's predators. I honestly wish we could eventually re-establish all native predators to the state, including mountain lions, incorporating natural predation into game management as much as possible. This is probably a pipe dream... especially considering a mindset like yours and many others in which competition for 'your' deer is definately not in the equation...

Our differences can be attributed to differences in philosophy more than anything else I guess? I don't feel that I am entitled to a certain number of deer each year or that the land I own or lease should be stocked with game provided by the state's taxpayers in order to ensure success in my hunting efforts. I don't expect my pursuits afield be effortless and always resulting in 'killing something'. I revel in the idea of carrying on a tradition and sharing in an experience which has been a part of my family's heritage for generations. A fleeting glimpse of a stalking bobcat or spending a morning silently in a stand while watching a coyote rummage through the leaf litter in pursuit of a field mouse... these intimate moments in nature are as satisfying, if not more so, to me than killing a ten pointer.


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## Nicodemus

olcowman said:


> I have no problem whatsoever with 'managing' predators along with game animals... never have. My response is specifically aimed at the idea that eradication is the only answer. The post in which you describe how predators indiscrimently kill all prey animals within their environs because they can't grasp the concept of 'management principals' is one which I feel is 100% wrong and in my opinion, one more in a long line of misconceptions and a blatant distortion of the facts concerning the coyote. If this hypothesis was even partly based on truth we wouldn't be having this discussion right now because all the predators would have 'ate' themselves out of existence eons ago without humans around to control their gluttonous appetites?
> 
> Predator control is an essential part of optimum management practices in certain situations, which are often the result of previous mismanagement or apathetic overuse of natural resources beforehand. If left alone, nature will inevitably enforce it's own version of 'predator control' in some form or another. The notion that we need to 'shoot everyone we see', along with some of the schemes I've seen posted on this forum (including poisoning, hanging treble hooks baited with raw meat, digging up litters of pups, purposely gut shooting, etc.)... these sort of things are the only reason I ever responded to start with.
> 
> To sum it up, I've been hearing for thirty or so years that coyotes are eating up all the deer, rabbits, turkeys, and other game animals, not to mention eating up whole herds of cows and chasing people's kids around the neighborhood. Somehow or another, this unfounded fear and hatred has bled over and now is starting to include all predators in general. Well the state is still loaded with deer, there's more turkeys around my place than I've ever seen, and rabbits are eating my garden up as quick as I plant it. I have yet to run up on anyone who has had to pull their youngun' out of the jaws of a coyote?
> 
> And yes sir, I have been involved is some form of the livestock industry most of my life... I have seen coyotes chasing rats in hayfields, found their dens right in the pasture alongside cows, have witnessed their numbers suddenly amp up during calving season in order to take advantage of the protein rich after-births and occasional discarded still-birth that I experienced (which equates to the number of yotes often seen during deer season due to the abrupt appearance of gut piles through out the woods)... but I have as of yet to see any 100% proof whatsoever of coyote predation on a healthy, mature individual. I have heard the tales and seen a calf or two who's demise was attributed to yotes, but the evidence suggested the act was actually perpetuated by domestic dogs which is often the case in these sort of reports. Most of the predation on livestock occurs in the western part of the country where the management is much less intense and the herd is spread over large areas. The 6.4% loss reported includes all predators and when it does involve coyotes it more than likely involves some sort of extenuating circumstance like pro-longed labor difficultly, downed/injured animals, etc.... coyotes just ain't built, nor do they run in pacts large enough, to facilitate them taking on a 1000lb cow.
> 
> As I stated earlier, evidence of all kinds and supporting both sides of this debate is available on the web, and I guess as you pointed out by the hunting shows you've been watching on the tv. I have looked at a heap of it, (tried to cull those anecdotal and questionable accounts  like many you have linked in your posts), I also considered my own personal observations and experiences over the years... after weighing all the data and interjecting a little common sense based on scientific principal and existing historical records... I can't for the life of me see why anyone feels we can't share our hunting experience with nature's predators. I honestly wish we could eventually re-establish all native predators to the state, including mountain lions, incorporating natural predation into game management as much as possible. This is probably a pipe dream... especially considering a mindset like yours and many others in which competition for 'your' deer is definately not in the equation...
> 
> Our differences can be attributed to differences in philosophy more than anything else I guess? I don't feel that I am entitled to a certain number of deer each year or that the land I own or lease should be stocked with game provided by the state's taxpayers in order to ensure success in my hunting efforts. I don't expect my pursuits afield be effortless and always resulting in 'killing something'. I revel in the idea of carrying on a tradition and sharing in an experience which has been a part of my family's heritage for generations. A fleeting glimpse of a stalking bobcat or spending a morning silently in a stand while watching a coyote rummage through the leaf litter in pursuit of a field mouse... these intimate moments in nature are as satisfying, if not more so, to me than killing a ten pointer.





Bubba, I understand exactly what you are sayin` here, and agree with you. I wonder how many others do?


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## NCHillbilly

Nicodemus said:


> Bubba, I understand exactly what you are sayin` here, and agree with you. I wonder how many others do?



Me. I've killed coyotes before, but I bear them no hatred, nor do I want to eradicate them. They are an amazingly intelligent, adaptable, interesting critter, and we would be worse off without them, I think. I wonder if some people have any concept that too many deer is not a good thing, either? You could also make the argument that deer are voracious eaters and will decimate crops and populations of native plants, and will browse and browse until there is nothing green left to eat and everthing dies.


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## oldways

I think wisdom such as this come's with age. You have to  understand I can sit in a stand on cool fall morning and be as happy not to kill something and just enjoy the day. I feed my family from my garden and the woods but just being in the woods is a joy in it self.


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## olcowman

I realize other folks feel as I do, I sincerely hope there is a bunch of them. The vile and hatred directed toward coyotes and other predators these days astonishes me and I have a hard time understanding this sort of mentality. I think Nic mentioned Leopold earlier in this thread. The Sand County Almanac is still a relative resource for understanding the fragile relationship that exists between man and the wild creatures we share this earth with. It was a catalyst for the conservation movement, and inevitably one of the reasons we are blessed with the hunting opportunities we have today. Leopold's essays underscore some of the points I am trying to embody in my posts here and elsewhere on the forum. 

I found this brief intro and quote from the book on the web...

_*In those days of Leopold’s adventures, no one would ever pass up killing a wolf because fewer wolves meant more deer, which meant great hunting experiences. However, when Leopold saw the “fierce green fire dying in her eyes” he knew that neither the mountain nor the wolf deserved this. Leopold stated in his book, A Sand County Almanac:

“Since then I have lived to see state after state extirpate its wolves. I have watched the face of many a newly wolfless mountain, and seen the south-facing slopes wrinkle with a maze of new deer trails. I have seen every edible bush and seedling browsed, first to anaemic desuetude, and then to death. I have seen every edible tree defoliated to the height of a saddlehorn … In the end the starved bones of the hoped-for deer herd, dead of its own too-much, bleach with the bones of the dead sage, or molder under the high-lined junipers … So also with cows. The cowman who cleans his range of wolves does not realize that he is taking over the wolf’s job of trimming the herd to fit the change. He has not learned to think like a mountain. Hence we have dustbowls, and rivers washing the future into the sea."*_


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## NCHillbilly

olcowman said:


> I realize other folks feel as I do, I sincerely hope there is a bunch of them. The vile and hatred directed toward coyotes and other predators these days astonishes me and I have a hard time understanding this sort of mentality. I think Nic mentioned Leopold earlier in this thread. The Sand County Almanac is still a relative resource for understanding the fragile relationship that exists between man and the wild creatures we share this earth with. It was a catalyst for the conservation movement, and inevitably one of the reasons we are blessed with the hunting opportunities we have today. Leopold's essays underscore some of the points I am trying to embody in my posts here and elsewhere on the forum.
> 
> I found this brief intro and quote from the book on the web...
> 
> _*In those days of Leopold’s adventures, no one would ever pass up killing a wolf because fewer wolves meant more deer, which meant great hunting experiences. However, when Leopold saw the “fierce green fire dying in her eyes” he knew that neither the mountain nor the wolf deserved this. Leopold stated in his book, A Sand County Almanac:
> 
> “Since then I have lived to see state after state extirpate its wolves. I have watched the face of many a newly wolfless mountain, and seen the south-facing slopes wrinkle with a maze of new deer trails. I have seen every edible bush and seedling browsed, first to anaemic desuetude, and then to death. I have seen every edible tree defoliated to the height of a saddlehorn … In the end the starved bones of the hoped-for deer herd, dead of its own too-much, bleach with the bones of the dead sage, or molder under the high-lined junipers … So also with cows. The cowman who cleans his range of wolves does not realize that he is taking over the wolf’s job of trimming the herd to fit the change. He has not learned to think like a mountain. Hence we have dustbowls, and rivers washing the future into the sea."*_



_Sand County Almanac_ and _Round River _both have permanent parking spots on my bookshelf.


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## Nicodemus

olcowman said:


> I realize other folks feel as I do, I sincerely hope there is a bunch of them. The vile and hatred directed toward coyotes and other predators these days astonishes me and I have a hard time understanding this sort of mentality. I think Nic mentioned Leopold earlier in this thread. The Sand County Almanac is still a relative resource for understanding the fragile relationship that exists between man and the wild creatures we share this earth with. It was a catalyst for the conservation movement, and inevitably one of the reasons we are blessed with the hunting opportunities we have today. Leopold's essays underscore some of the points I am trying to embody in my posts here and elsewhere on the forum.
> 
> I found this brief intro and quote from the book on the web...
> 
> _*In those days of Leopold’s adventures, no one would ever pass up killing a wolf because fewer wolves meant more deer, which meant great hunting experiences. However, when Leopold saw the “fierce green fire dying in her eyes” he knew that neither the mountain nor the wolf deserved this. Leopold stated in his book, A Sand County Almanac:
> 
> “Since then I have lived to see state after state extirpate its wolves. I have watched the face of many a newly wolfless mountain, and seen the south-facing slopes wrinkle with a maze of new deer trails. I have seen every edible bush and seedling browsed, first to anaemic desuetude, and then to death. I have seen every edible tree defoliated to the height of a saddlehorn … In the end the starved bones of the hoped-for deer herd, dead of its own too-much, bleach with the bones of the dead sage, or molder under the high-lined junipers … So also with cows. The cowman who cleans his range of wolves does not realize that he is taking over the wolf’s job of trimming the herd to fit the change. He has not learned to think like a mountain. Hence we have dustbowls, and rivers washing the future into the sea."*_[/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that chapter was "Thinking Like A Mountain".
> 
> Anybody who hasn`t read A Sand County Almanac, owes it to themself to get a copy.


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## Flaustin1

Folks around here dont know how coyotes take down big game.  I believe those photos are 100% authentic.  Yotes have the endurance to run deer to the point of exhaustion, then they "hamstring" the animal till it lays down and dies of shock or they bleed out.  Ive seen it with my own eyes.


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## The mtn man

River Rambler said:


> Hold on...your facts may be facts, but they do not support your argument.
> 
> Not too long ago there were bigger and badder predators in GA....wolves. So the role HAS existed a lot longer than your mention of coyotes. Coyotes just filled the gap after we eradicated the local wolf around 1900.
> 
> Nature has a way of filling the gaps.
> Kill all the coyotes, something else will eventually take it's place.



red wolves look almost exactly like coyotes, not much bigger either, nc has lots of them


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## GTHunter007

olcowman said:


> I have no problem whatsoever with 'managing' predators along with game animals... never have. My response is specifically aimed at the idea that eradication is the only answer. The post in which you describe how predators indiscrimently kill all prey animals within their environs because they can't grasp the concept of 'management principals' is one which I feel is 100% wrong and in my opinion, one more in a long line of misconceptions and a blatant distortion of the facts concerning the coyote. If this hypothesis was even partly based on truth we wouldn't be having this discussion right now because all the predators would have 'ate' themselves out of existence eons ago without humans around to control their gluttonous appetites?
> 
> Predator control is an essential part of optimum management practices in certain situations, which are often the result of previous mismanagement or apathetic overuse of natural resources beforehand. If left alone, nature will inevitably enforce it's own version of 'predator control' in some form or another. The notion that we need to 'shoot everyone we see', along with some of the schemes I've seen posted on this forum (including poisoning, hanging treble hooks baited with raw meat, digging up litters of pups, purposely gut shooting, etc.)... these sort of things are the only reason I ever responded to start with.
> 
> To sum it up, I've been hearing for thirty or so years that coyotes are eating up all the deer, rabbits, turkeys, and other game animals, not to mention eating up whole herds of cows and chasing people's kids around the neighborhood. Somehow or another, this unfounded fear and hatred has bled over and now is starting to include all predators in general. Well the state is still loaded with deer, there's more turkeys around my place than I've ever seen, and rabbits are eating my garden up as quick as I plant it. I have yet to run up on anyone who has had to pull their youngun' out of the jaws of a coyote?
> 
> And yes sir, I have been involved is some form of the livestock industry most of my life... I have seen coyotes chasing rats in hayfields, found their dens right in the pasture alongside cows, have witnessed their numbers suddenly amp up during calving season in order to take advantage of the protein rich after-births and occasional discarded still-birth that I experienced (which equates to the number of yotes often seen during deer season due to the abrupt appearance of gut piles through out the woods)... but I have as of yet to see any 100% proof whatsoever of coyote predation on a healthy, mature individual. I have heard the tales and seen a calf or two who's demise was attributed to yotes, but the evidence suggested the act was actually perpetuated by domestic dogs which is often the case in these sort of reports. Most of the predation on livestock occurs in the western part of the country where the management is much less intense and the herd is spread over large areas. The 6.4% loss reported includes all predators and when it does involve coyotes it more than likely involves some sort of extenuating circumstance like pro-longed labor difficultly, downed/injured animals, etc.... coyotes just ain't built, nor do they run in pacts large enough, to facilitate them taking on a 1000lb cow.
> 
> As I stated earlier, evidence of all kinds and supporting both sides of this debate is available on the web, and I guess as you pointed out by the hunting shows you've been watching on the tv. I have looked at a heap of it, (tried to cull those anecdotal and questionable accounts  like many you have linked in your posts), I also considered my own personal observations and experiences over the years... after weighing all the data and interjecting a little common sense based on scientific principal and existing historical records... I can't for the life of me see why anyone feels we can't share our hunting experience with nature's predators. I honestly wish we could eventually re-establish all native predators to the state, including mountain lions, incorporating natural predation into game management as much as possible. This is probably a pipe dream... especially considering a mindset like yours and many others in which competition for 'your' deer is definately not in the equation...
> 
> Our differences can be attributed to differences in philosophy more than anything else I guess? I don't feel that I am entitled to a certain number of deer each year or that the land I own or lease should be stocked with game provided by the state's taxpayers in order to ensure success in my hunting efforts. I don't expect my pursuits afield be effortless and always resulting in 'killing something'. I revel in the idea of carrying on a tradition and sharing in an experience which has been a part of my family's heritage for generations. A fleeting glimpse of a stalking bobcat or spending a morning silently in a stand while watching a coyote rummage through the leaf litter in pursuit of a field mouse... these intimate moments in nature are as satisfying, if not more so, to me than killing a ten pointer.





olcowman said:


> I realize other folks feel as I do, I sincerely hope there is a bunch of them. The vile and hatred directed toward coyotes and other predators these days astonishes me and I have a hard time understanding this sort of mentality. I think Nic mentioned Leopold earlier in this thread. The Sand County Almanac is still a relative resource for understanding the fragile relationship that exists between man and the wild creatures we share this earth with. It was a catalyst for the conservation movement, and inevitably one of the reasons we are blessed with the hunting opportunities we have today. Leopold's essays underscore some of the points I am trying to embody in my posts here and elsewhere on the forum.
> 
> I found this brief intro and quote from the book on the web...
> 
> _*In those days of Leopold’s adventures, no one would ever pass up killing a wolf because fewer wolves meant more deer, which meant great hunting experiences. However, when Leopold saw the “fierce green fire dying in her eyes” he knew that neither the mountain nor the wolf deserved this. Leopold stated in his book, A Sand County Almanac:
> 
> “Since then I have lived to see state after state extirpate its wolves. I have watched the face of many a newly wolfless mountain, and seen the south-facing slopes wrinkle with a maze of new deer trails. I have seen every edible bush and seedling browsed, first to anaemic desuetude, and then to death. I have seen every edible tree defoliated to the height of a saddlehorn … In the end the starved bones of the hoped-for deer herd, dead of its own too-much, bleach with the bones of the dead sage, or molder under the high-lined junipers … So also with cows. The cowman who cleans his range of wolves does not realize that he is taking over the wolf’s job of trimming the herd to fit the change. He has not learned to think like a mountain. Hence we have dustbowls, and rivers washing the future into the sea."*_



You my friend...can share my hunting camp any time!!


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## shakey gizzard

HELLO! They are non native and invasive!


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## Nicodemus

shakey gizzard said:


> HELLO! They are non native and invasive!





I don`t think so. I look at them as a species that was almost wiped out, and is makin` a comeback into its ancestral homeland.


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## shakey gizzard

Its homeland should be on the other side of the big river! Jmo


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## Nicodemus

shakey gizzard said:


> Its homeland should be on the other side of the big river! Jmo




And we are all entitled to our opinions.


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## shakey gizzard

Nicodemus said:


> And we are all entitled to our opinions.



True dat!


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## Lilly Pad

some folks have problems with coyotes killing deer,we have a problem with dogs killing deer it appears.Last month my friend & I came up on a large cross breed dog that had a young deer by the back legs in the same area (peanut field) where we found the doe with its stomach ripped out, awhile back. That small deer turned out to be a button buck and it walked gingerly back into the woods for another year, Im glad to say. We havent heard a coyote in I dont know how long but from time to time we are finding bones from deer.


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## Oconostota

Nicodemus said:


> Bubba, I understand exactly what you are sayin` here, and agree with you. I wonder how many others do?



I agree very much with what he says...of course.  And I admire and respect his outlook.

Regarding the post above by Lilly Pad, dogs killing deer are and entirely different matter.  Dogs do not belong out in nature, in the wild state.  Those that are there, or running loose, are the result of idiot or slimeball human beings that have no regard or respect for what ought not be.

And as a kinda related story, I once let my GSD out of the fence.  She normally follows me to the mailbox or into the house, with no command at all.  Wellllll, a deer happened to be in my back yard at that moment.  It bolted, and so did she.  I heard them both running through the leaves for a good while.  I just shook my head and thought to myself, "girl, you do NOT want to catch that deer - if you do, it will kill you".  It was probably a 150 lb deer.  She is 80 lb.  2 dogs could have taken it down, but not one dog.  And here's the thing - it was MY mistake that she was chasing it.  I did something dumb and illegal.  Cobb county has a leash law, and a dog loose, in your own yard, under voice command, is definitely illegal here.  The law states that.  I'm getting to my point that dogs running loose and killing wild animals should be killed, in my opinion.  And the person(s) responsible for that dog running loose ought to be held responsibe for what happens.  Coyotes are not feral animals (generally).  Whole different ball game with them.

Another point:  If coyotes are decimating deer populations so badly, why is it that there is now a 12 deer limit per season?  For the longest time, it was like 2 or 3 deer.  Due to management, the population got somewhat on the heavy side, and humans are being allowed to thin them out.  If coyotes were wiping them out, wouldn't the limit go way back down?

Finally, what really disturbs me is seeing pictures of animals in traps, or gut shot ones, posted here, and some folks congratulating the picture takers for what they did.  Wanting to eliminate an animal is one thing.  Deriving pleasure from seeing them suffer is entirely different.  If I kill a danged rat that is giving me trouble, it bothers me greatly if I don't kill it quickly and painlessly.  Why?  Because even though I hate what it was doing, I don't hate the creature for that.  It was just trying to survive.  Same reason I don't indiscriminately kill snakes (actually, I never kill any snakes, and would even relocate a poisonous one from my yard).  Neither do I hate a whole race because of what a small group of that race does.  I think that kind of behavior is indicative of the same mindset.

Some of us have a heart, and some of us don't.  This thread makes that pretty clear.


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## oldways

I think yotes get a fair share of fawn in the spring. But when someone is taking 20 does off a place in the fall in the name of mangement because they want a 1 to 1 buck /doe ratio there not going to be long before the deer are gone. To much TV show management and big ranch management going on. You can't take 10 does off 500 acres and sustain a deer herd long in a couple years you will be fishing during deer season..


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## hunter rich

olcowman and nic are the type of people we need working with the biologists and law makers managing our wildlife.  I am going on Amazon to get "Sand County Almanac" come payday, or put it in someones ear for Christmas...

Thank you Gentlemen for your wise and learned posts.


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## NCHillbilly

oldways said:


> I think yotes get a fair share of fawn in the spring. But when someone is taking 20 does off a place in the fall in the name of mangement because they want a 1 to 1 buck /doe ratio there not going to be long before the deer are gone. To much TV show management and big ranch management going on. You can't take 10 does off 500 acres and sustain a deer herd long in a couple years you will be fishing during deer season..



Bingo.


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## Oak-flat Hunter

*I disagree.*

It's almost impossible too manage.  A track as small as 500 acres.There is just too many variables when considering the range of whitetail. Which is 1too2 miles range?


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