# sort of a "catch-22" of Christianity



## oldfella1962 (Oct 12, 2017)

I just thought of something the other day: Christianity couldn't exist until Jesus was actually dead, since his resurrection then ascension back into heaven shortly after is very much the point of the whole religion. So without Jesus around anymore, there is no way to ensure that Christians are "doing it right" other than to take whatever knowledge he may have given his believers for them to spread around in his absence. But his believers weren't psychic, so how did they know the guy they were following was "the real deal" since he hadn't been crucified and then risen from the dead yet?  

In other words there may have been other Jewish spiritual leaders around in those days who had a growing group of followers who liked their new/different ideas, but since they weren't crucified & resurrected they were forgotten about once it was discovered they were nothing special - they were just mortal men. 

Just saying it's kind of weird that Jesus did the most important thing ever for mankind (came to earth, taught a bunch of moral lessons, performed miracles then died for all our sins) but didn't stick around for a few hundred years to make sure his believers weren't getting off track or twisting his message. That would ensure that nothing would be "lost in translation" because he could teach & preach to every single nation in every language and make sure everything was being taught right & done right. 

As it is now there's no way to prove that a hundred or two hundred years after he lived people didn't just start a religion based around the myth of who we call "Jesus" but was long gone except for his words people wrote down and codified long after his death. Just thinking out loud I guess! Any thoughts?


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## atlashunter (Oct 12, 2017)

The miracle stories are used to claim he was divinely connected. I have my doubts that even his followers considered him god incarnate. I suspect most of what is claimed about him is fabrications that came later. We have glimpses of it when we look at the numerous inconsistencies and contradictions in the gospel stories. Or little details like Paul saying Jesus appeared to the 12 disciples after the resurrection when according to other accounts Judas hanged himself after betraying Jesus so there would have been only 11 disciples.


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## bullethead (Oct 12, 2017)

Within Judiasm there have been many more messiah candidates that fulfilled even more prophesy than Jesus did, and yet they were still not worthy of making the cut.
While I fully believe that a guy named Joshua (Yeshua, but the bible refers to him as Jesus despite all other Joshuas in the bible) lived and preached apocalyptic sermons and had followers.  Who for 3 years made waves against the authorities and got himself killed for it..
I also fully believed that his "miracles" and fulfillment of some prophesy were all later additions to the stories which took 30 to 70 or more years to write.
The Jews were always looking for and claiming to have found their saviour. Their history always included multiple gods, single god, various sects, similar yet different beliefs and multiple interpretations from those different beliefs that caused them to disagree and search for a mesiah that would prove them right. Plus it didn't hurt to take bits and pieces from surrounding cultures religions and incorporate them into their own. Much like christianity with it's 10,000+ denominations.

Mortals during life were embellished and made divine after death.  Same as most religions.


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## 660griz (Oct 12, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> The miracle stories are used to claim he was divinely connected. I have my doubts that even his followers considered him god incarnate.


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## Spineyman (Oct 12, 2017)

oldfella1962 said:


> sort of a "catch-22 of Christianity


Actually no ctach 22 at all. Go to His Word and it clearly points out exactly what happened.

 Matthew 16:13-19 

13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”

14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 18 And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”


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## bullethead (Oct 12, 2017)

Spineyman said:


> Actually no ctach 22 at all. Go to His Word and it clearly points out exactly what happened.
> 
> Matthew 16:13-19
> 
> ...



Oh, thanks.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 12, 2017)

oldfella1962 said:


> ... because he could teach & preach to every single nation in every language and make sure everything was being taught right & done right.



He left that up to his disciples:

"And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." 2 Timothy 2:2


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## bullethead (Oct 12, 2017)

centerpin fan said:


> He left that up to his disciples:
> 
> "And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." 2 Timothy 2:2


Well, that is what one of his non-disciples wrote anyway...


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## centerpin fan (Oct 12, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Well, that is what one of his non-disciples wrote anyway...



Paul was as much a disciple as any of the twelve.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 12, 2017)

bullethead said:


> Well, that is what one of his non-disciples wrote anyway...



You could always go with the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19-20) if you prefer.


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## bullethead (Oct 12, 2017)

centerpin fan said:


> Paul was as much a disciple as any of the twelve.



I missed him in the Last Supper Polaroid. 

Paul is as much of a disciple as I am. We both met Jesus the same amount of times.
He might get to place a #1JesusFan bumper sticker on his camel, whoops, donkey, but that's about it.

I personally believe Paul (writings)was more Jesus than Jesus ever was.


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## bullethead (Oct 12, 2017)

centerpin fan said:


> You could always go with the Great Commission (Matt. 28:19-20) if you prefer.



Oooo goodie. I am way more interested in how you are going to break down how Matthew the disciple wrote the self titled Matthewmentary.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 13, 2017)

"Actually no catch 22 at all. Go to His Word and it clearly points out exactly what happened." - Spineyman

exactly my point. If the actual religion was developed quite some time after his death (when he isn't around to supervise things) that "word" could have been written by anybody about anyone. As long as whatever you (the writer) adds to the mythology sounds "like something he'd say" - in other words fits the character/narrative nobody believing in it will dispute it. Nearly every organized religion is based around it's readers/believers assuming what is written about it is true and not fiction. If your religion's holy book is fiction it wouldn't have any implied authority.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 23, 2017)

oldfella1962 said:


> "Actually no catch 22 at all. Go to His Word and it clearly points out exactly what happened." - Spineyman
> 
> exactly my point. If the actual religion was developed quite some time after his death (when he isn't around to supervise things) that "word" could have been written by anybody about anyone. As long as whatever you (the writer) adds to the mythology sounds "like something he'd say" - in other words fits the character/narrative nobody believing in it will dispute it. Nearly every organized religion is based around it's readers/believers assuming what is written about it is true and not fiction. If your religion's holy book is fiction it wouldn't have any implied authority.



Maybe you missed this part;

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 

It wouldn't have assured anything if Jesus would have stayed 200 years after his resurrection. It take revelation from the Father, not flesh and blood or flesh and bones even.


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## Spineyman (Oct 23, 2017)

oldfella1962 said:


> "Actually no catch 22 at all. Go to His Word and it clearly points out exactly what happened." - Spineyman
> 
> exactly my point. If the actual religion was developed quite some time after his death (when he isn't around to supervise things) that "word" could have been written by anybody about anyone. As long as whatever you (the writer) adds to the mythology sounds "like something he'd say" - in other words fits the character/narrative nobody believing in it will dispute it. Nearly every organized religion is based around it's readers/believers assuming what is written about it is true and not fiction. If your religion's holy book is fiction it wouldn't have any implied authority.



In the first place Jesus hand picked His disciples to walk with Him through His earthly ministry, though weak as they are. They denied Him at the cross, but afterward He returned to them and they received power from on High.
But He instituted the New testament in His Blood.

 1 Corinthians 11:23-26


23 For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you: that the Lord Jesus on the same night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “Take, eat; this is My body which is broken for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.”

26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death till He comes.


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## Israel (Oct 24, 2017)

The whole of the point for the believer is He is not gone...at all. And He keeps being manifest.
To take it a step further, He alone is the reality...that is...here.


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