# The OT and contradictions



## vowell462 (Nov 10, 2011)

Just about everyone I know is of Christian belief. And to be honest, its hard in the south to be someone who doesnt believe what your friends and peers were comfortabaly indoctrinated into believing. I say that because most, not all, but most that I know grew up in and around it and have never done any research of thier own. Therefore its not good to have a logical and questioning conversation with them about any of it.

That is why I enjoy this forum so much. There are some very intelligent and good answering Christians that visit this forum such as Thanatos, Ted and String etc, that maybe able to help me understand how you can justify the OT.

Ill make it basic. We all know about the things that are written in the OT that suggest horrible things. In several places it suggest murder, women unequal to man, etc. Then in the book of Mathew we are told that the OT is still to be used. So I just dont get it. If I were indoctrinating my children into this how do I justify a god of love with what is written in the OT? How in the world could I look them in the eye and tell them this is the book of god and to trust and obey it when all it might do is scare the ever living tar out of them?

The OT and the history of the religion is what turns me far away from it. I would just like to know how as a christian, a servant of the lord,you can justify all the love and harshness at the same time. 

Let me say this as well. This thread is not meant for bashing, I respect everyones opinions. This is just one of those things that pecks at my brain constantly. And theres probably a thread about this already, but I didnt feel like looking for it. Plus, we havent had a new thread in a while so I figured id start one.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 10, 2011)

Short answer:  read Acts 15 for how Christians should treat OT laws.  Galatians is also excellent.

Will post more detail later.


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## vowell462 (Nov 10, 2011)

Please do. Im missing it in Acts 15. I will go read Galatians.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 10, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> Im missing it in Acts 15.



There were some in the church telling the Gentiles that they had to get circumcised and follow the Law of Moses.  Peter answers by saying that neither they nor their forefathers could follow the Law, so why burden the Gentiles with it?


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## centerpin fan (Nov 10, 2011)

I mentioned Acts 15 and Galatians in response to this:



vowell462 said:


> Then in the book of Mathew we are told that the OT is still to be used.



We are justified by faith, not by the works of the Law.  Galatians 3 really hits on this.




vowell462 said:


> Ill make it basic. We all know about the things that are written in the OT that suggest horrible things. In several places it suggest murder, women unequal to man, etc. Then in the book of Mathew we are told that the OT is still to be used. So I just dont get it. If I were indoctrinating my children into this how do I justify a god of love with what is written in the OT? How in the world could I look them in the eye and tell them this is the book of god and to trust and obey it when all it might do is scare the ever living tar out of them?
> 
> The OT and the history of the religion is what turns me far away from it. I would just like to know how as a christian, a servant of the lord,you can justify all the love and harshness at the same time.



Is it really "the OT and the history of the religion"?  In my experience, it's something in the NT that does it for most people.  For example, stuff like "turn the other cheek" or "anyone who so much as looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart" turns off many.  The rich young ruler turned away from Jesus when He told him to sell all he had and come follow Him.

If that's not the case, please be specific about what passage or event you can't reconcile.


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## gstanfield (Nov 10, 2011)

There are several references, but here a few that may help to clear things up a little.



> From ROMANS:
> 
> 7:1 Or do you not know, brothers and sisters (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law is lord over a person as long as he lives? 2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives, but if her husband dies, she is released from the law of the marriage. 3 So then, if she is joined to another man while her husband is alive, she will be called an adulteress. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she is joined to another man, she is not an adulteress. 4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead, to bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful desires, aroused by the law, were active in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. *6 But now we have been released from the law, because we have died to what controlled us, so that we may serve in the new life of the Spirit and not under the old written code. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Absolutely not! Certainly, I would not have known sin except through the law.* For indeed I would not have known what it means to desire something belonging to someone else if the law had not said, “Do not covet.” 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of wrong desires. For apart from the law, sin is dead. 9 And I was once alive apart from the law, but with the coming of the commandment sin became alive 10 and I died. So I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life brought death! 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it I died. 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous, and good. 13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? Absolutely not! But sin, so that it would be shown to be sin, produced death in me through what is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual – but I am unspiritual, sold into slavery to sin.



And to save me a bit of typing (it's been a long day, sorry) I'll drop this link that covers a lot more detail about the subject.

http://bible.org/article/mosaic-law-its-function-and-purpose-new-testament


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## vowell462 (Nov 10, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I mentioned Acts 15 and Galatians in response to this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, the case for me is all of it. Not just the OT, but the old laws bother me very badly.

Being a father of three young daughters, Deuteronomy 22:21 is probably my favorite ridiculous law. Galations makes a little more sense to me in recovering after I read it. As far as the history, yes. It really is a big part that turns me away. A couple of centuries of slaughter made it into what it is today.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 10, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> ... Deuteronomy 22:21 is probably my favorite ridiculous law.



What church or synagogue advocates stoning non-virgins today?




vowell462 said:


> ... but the old laws bother me very badly.



We had an old law in this country called "slavery".  Have you renounced your U.S. citizenship because of it?




vowell462 said:


> A couple of centuries of slaughter made it into what it is today.



And what is it today?


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## StriperAddict (Nov 10, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> Well, the case for me is all of it. Not just the OT, but the old laws bother me very badly.
> 
> Being a father of three young daughters, Deuteronomy 22:21 is probably my favorite ridiculous law. Galations makes a little more sense to me in recovering after I read it. As far as the history, yes. It really is a big part that turns me away. A couple of centuries of slaughter made it into what it is today.



Please read the book of Hebrews and the first 8 chapters of Romans for perspective.

To sum it up, however, a Christian's life comes from a person, Christ. We don't rely on the law, or our own power to keep it, to be in right standing with God.  Once you begin to see that in the NT, you'll have eyes to see it in the Old.  I ain't gonna lie to ya, it takes some heavy scripture study time, and some down 'n dirty-honest prayer with the one whom you may think doesn't exist.  But it's worth it. I'm still finding paradox's in scripture that cause me to dig deeper. But all the time I'm driven closer to the One who cares for me better than I care for myself.  Light will come thru a lot of pain and worldly pressure, but so long as you let the struggle/pain become a teacher, you won't fight it b/c it can lead to life.  The cross, for Jesus, led to life for all who believe.
Sorry for some deviation off your original point, but as far as scripture...  "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater"... in other words, keep digging for the gold.  The effort (pain) will be well worth it.


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## vowell462 (Nov 10, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> What church or synagogue advocates stoning non-virgins today?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



None that im aware of. Still in the US. And of course its not that way today. The point was they had to do alot of aweful things to become a great loving and caring religion.


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## vowell462 (Nov 10, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Please read the book of Hebrews and the first 8 chapters of Romans for perspective.
> 
> To sum it up, however, a Christian's life comes from a person, Christ. We don't rely on the law, or our own power to keep it, to be in right standing with God.  Once you begin to see that in the NT, you'll have eyes to see it in the Old.  I ain't gonna lie to ya, it takes some heavy scripture study time, and some down 'n dirty-honest prayer with the one whom you may think doesn't exist.  But it's worth it. I'm still finding paradox's in scripture that cause me to dig deeper. But all the time I'm driven closer to the One who cares for me better than I care for myself.  Light will come thru a lot of pain and worldly pressure, but so long as you let the struggle/pain become a teacher, you won't fight it b/c it can lead to life.  The cross, for Jesus, led to life for all who believe.
> Sorry for some deviation off your original point, but as far as scripture...  "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater"... in other words, keep digging for the gold.  The effort (pain) will be well worth it.



I absolutley will read up again. And I agree with constantly digging in scripture. Theres alot that i dont know if I will ever get.

By the way, killer avatar.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 10, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> The point was they had to do alot of aweful things to become a great loving and caring religion.



It's been a great loving and caring religion from the beginning.


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## StriperAddict (Nov 10, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> I absolutley will read up again. And I agree with constantly digging in scripture. Theres alot that i dont know if I will ever get.
> 
> By the way, killer avatar.



Thanks. Ya gotta explain yours....  my eyes ain't too good and it looks like a couple of rats are at your feet.  I'm sure my perspective is a 'lil askew! 

Wait... duh, me!

Them be ducks, correct?
(Just shoot me! LOL)


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## vowell462 (Nov 10, 2011)

laughing! yea ducks. Teal if I remember correctly.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 10, 2011)

You're next to a boat, so I thought they might be some really nice bluegill.


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## ambush80 (Nov 10, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> You're next to a boat, so I thought they might be some really nice bluegill.



What's wrong with their tails?


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## centerpin fan (Nov 10, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> What's wrong with their tails?



I was wondering the same thing.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 10, 2011)

Let me quickly add a thought here for all of us to think about.
We often look at the people of the early Old Testament as if they were people like you and I.  Normal people, just like us.
But they weren't.  
These people didn't have our history.  By our standards, these people might be considered pre-historic.  

I'll make my point with this:  With all that God confronted them with, they were still unable to leave their known way of life.
These were not people that modern civilization would want to deal with.

Don't compare them to us.
Don't compare God's will for us to God's will for them.


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## bullethead (Nov 10, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Let me quickly add a thought here for all of us to think about.
> We often look at the people of the early Old Testament as if they were people like you and I.  Normal people, just like us.
> But they weren't.
> These people didn't have our history.  By our standards, these people might be considered pre-historic.
> ...



Disregard everything about them but their writings?


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## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Let me quickly add a thought here for all of us to think about.
> We often look at the people of the early Old Testament as if they were people like you and I.  Normal people, just like us.
> But they weren't.
> These people didn't have our history.  By our standards, these people might be considered pre-historic.
> ...



I agree.

The jews wandered in the desert for 40 yrs, trying to make a 12 mile hike to the promised land. Know why? Because they wanted to go back where they had security, even if it meant being a slave. God had to breed the 'bondage' mental attitude out of them, so He let that generation wander for 40 yrs to kill off the generation of people who'd settle for less than what God had/has to offer them....not being a slave in egypt but being in the promised land....and guess what else, they still didn't get it.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Disregard everything about them but their writings?



What is everything?

No one disregards them, we just don't follow what they did, and by their writings we know what NOT to do.


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## bullethead (Nov 11, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> What is everything?
> 
> No one disregards them, we just don't follow what they did, and by their writings we know what NOT to do.



Didn't they write the OT ?


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## bullethead (Nov 11, 2011)

Modern Civilization would not want to deal with them, but we are to believe their version of who and how all of creation started??

Oh thats right GOD inspired the pre-historic people. Pre-Destined them to write HIS book.


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## ambush80 (Nov 11, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> What's wrong with their tails?




Just kidding, vowell.  Good looking ducks.  How'd they taste?


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## vowell462 (Nov 11, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Just kidding, vowell.  Good looking ducks.  How'd they taste?



I know. Tasted about like something you get at a chinese buffet thats been sitting there from 10am untill 9pm. Sometimes they turn out alright for me, but most of the time they dont. But I cant cook either.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Modern Civilization would not want to deal with them, but we are to believe their version of who and how all of creation started??
> 
> Oh thats right GOD inspired the pre-historic people. Pre-Destined them to write HIS book.



Do you believe other history books?  In history classes in school, even though we didn't witness the events, we assumed that the writings were correct. I guess we could dispute any history book or all of them. Why do people dispute all the stuff in the bible but believe every other history book?  

We were also taught the theory of evolution in school, and we are to believe that version of creation?.....what is the difference?

I think you come here just because you can tickle yourself pink over all of this.  Obviously you are not interested in what others believe, like you stated before.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 11, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> I know. Tasted about like something you get at a chinese buffet thats been sitting there from 10am untill 9pm. Sometimes they turn out alright for me, but most of the time they dont. But I cant cook either.



Do you bake them covered in aluminum foil?


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## Ronnie T (Nov 11, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Modern Civilization would not want to deal with them, but we are to believe their version of who and how all of creation started??
> 
> Oh thats right GOD inspired the pre-historic people. Pre-Destined them to write HIS book.



Well, I would have given a follow-up comment to my last one to better define what I was trying to say, but since you're full of sarcastic comments about it I'll just leave you to it.


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## bullethead (Nov 11, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Well, I would have given a follow-up comment to my last one to better define what I was trying to say, but since you're full of sarcastic, ill comments about it I'll just leave you to it.



Or you could have just done it instead of getting a left hook in too.

There was no sarcasm in my comment. They were ancient people with ancient beliefs and ideals. There is a darn good reason the things that happened to them do not happen to modern society today. We have come a long way in 6000 years and mass interactions with a God that according to their writings happened daily has ceased for over 2000 years.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 13, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> Just about everyone I know is of Christian belief. And to be honest, its hard in the south to be someone who doesnt believe what your friends and peers were comfortabaly indoctrinated into believing. I say that because most, not all, but most that I know grew up in and around it and have never done any research of thier own. Therefore its not good to have a logical and questioning conversation with them about any of it.
> 
> That is why I enjoy this forum so much. There are some very intelligent and good answering Christians that visit this forum such as Thanatos, Ted and String etc, that maybe able to help me understand how you can justify the OT.
> 
> ...



I understand fully. I have learned that it is not best to talk about these things. seems everyone has a different understanding of things and everyone else is wrong. Strange how religious people have no tolerence for a different viewpoint.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 13, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> Just about everyone I know is of Christian belief. And to be honest, its hard in the south to be someone who doesnt believe what your friends and peers were comfortabaly indoctrinated into believing. I say that because most, not all, but most that I know grew up in and around it and have never done any research of thier own. Therefore its not good to have a logical and questioning conversation with them about any of it.
> 
> That is why I enjoy this forum so much. There are some very intelligent and good answering Christians that visit this forum such as Thanatos, Ted and String etc, that maybe able to help me understand how you can justify the OT.
> 
> ...



Most Christians have never even read this stuff you point out. The ones who have, ignore that it is there. As for me, I can not explain or justify why these extreme acts are there. So, I ignore them. A better explanation than "ignore" would be that I don't "factor them into the equation while looking for the sum". I say this because this is what most people do. In other words, the problem you see is real. And no one has a reasonable answer.


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## bullethead (Nov 13, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Most Christians have never even read this stuff you point out. The ones who have, ignore that it is there. As for me, I can not explain or justify why these extreme acts are there. So, I ignore them. A better explanation than "ignore" would be that I don't "factor them into the equation while looking for the sum". I say this because this is what most people do. In other words, the problem you see is real. And no one has a reasonable answer.



Almost like they are in there but don't count.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 13, 2011)

Sometimes I question if these things could have really happened. If I were one of "the fighting men" of David, supposed to be sent by God, could I kill women and helpless children? Could I do this? These are hard questions that Christians had rather ignore. But they were punished for not doing so. Some towns, they were allowed to let the women and children live?? Many years ago, I could not stand David, the hero. But then I saw where he was obeying???? This is not a God who loves everyone. A group of early socalled christians had this same problem so they concluded that there must be a God of the OT but the God of the NT defeated him, a teaching by Marcion, his followers, Marcionites. So I say these things to acknowledge that this is a hard one. But I appreciate your sincere attempt to approach this gently. And I appreciate the thought pervoking hard questions. They make me think. I ponder things like this for days. In the Christian circles, no one dares to bring up such. It is by being challenged in my thinking that I learn how to deal with these issues.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 13, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Almost like they are in there but don't count.



"wildcards"


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## bullethead (Nov 13, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Sometimes I question if these things could have really happened. If I were one of "the fighting men" of David, supposed to be sent by God, could I kill women and helpless children? Could I do this? These are hard questions that Christians had rather ignore. But they were punished for not doing so. Some towns, they were allowed to let the women and children live?? Many years ago, I could not stand David, the hero. But then I saw where he was obeying???? This is not a God who loves everyone. A group of early socalled christians had this same problem so they concluded that there must be a God of the OT but the God of the NT defeated him, a teaching by Marcion, his followers, Marcionites. So I say these things to acknowledge that this is a hard one. But I appreciate your sincere attempt to approach this gently. And I appreciate the thought pervoking hard questions. They make me think. I ponder things like this for days. In the Christian circles, no one dares to bring up such. It is by being challenged in my thinking that I learn how to deal with these issues.



I always think of the saying "Isn't funny how God hates the same people that his worshipers hate."


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 13, 2011)

Thinking this through. It is clear that God showed no love for those not chosen in the OT. God choose the Israelites to redeem and make himself known. He did this in part by killing off some of their enemies. People have been fighting since the very beginning. The winner was considered the one who had "God with him". I can deal with this. It is the killing of women and children that presents the problem of "a God of love". Other examples, like what did Jobs children do to deserve death. I don't question Gods judgements, just the reality of these stories.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 13, 2011)

This is a tuff one. I need to go back to ignoring it. Much eaiser.


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## StriperAddict (Nov 13, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Sometimes I question if these things could have really happened. If I were one of "the fighting men" of David, supposed to be sent by God, could I kill women and helpless children? Could I do this? These are hard questions that Christians had rather ignore. But they were punished for not doing so. Some towns, they were allowed to let the women and children live?? Many years ago, I could not stand David, the hero. But then I saw where he was obeying???? This is not a God who loves everyone. A group of early socalled christians had this same problem so they concluded that there must be a God of the OT but the God of the NT defeated him, a teaching by Marcion, his followers, Marcionites. So I say these things to acknowledge that this is a hard one. But I appreciate your sincere attempt to approach this gently. And I appreciate the thought pervoking hard questions. They make me think. I ponder things like this for days. In the Christian circles, no one dares to bring up such. It is by being challenged in my thinking that I learn how to deal with these issues.



In no way is my take on this topic the "be all -  end all" of it, but I can appreciate the turmoil it brings to discussion. 
Some have said, and I agree, that God was more visibly "active" in the OT than He was after the 1st century. Not taking to account the miracles of Jesus and the Apostles, there seems to have been some incredible miracles and prophetic words in OT times that the Lord performed, through David, Moses, and the prophets that honored God. There were often displays of His mercy that bear mentioning too, like the entire city of Nineveh coming to a change of heart by the reluctant preaching of a seaweed clad, vomited up prophet like Jonah. 
In all the ways God openly revealed Himself in OT times, there was just as much, if not more... open defiance to Him.
Make no mistake, mercy triumphs over judgement every time. But maybe, just maybe, an open lesson of God's justice against sin (not just the acts of sin and unrighteousness, but the power of sin reigning in so many lives) was needed to show just how devastating sin is in the life of one, or many, and maybe back then, an entire group. 
Today, I see the Lord withdraw this "hand of justice" as it was in the days of David, Jeremiah and many other prophets in OT times. (We take this mercy for granted today, don't we??)
But be sure that the times we are given now, of freedom to choose as we like, to call on His Name or not, to see the cross as the bridge between fallen man and the love of God (or choose not to), all point to the day where the wrath of the OT will look like a picnic compared to what is promised in Daniel and Revelation (maybe that's fire for another thread).

So in this topic, I see mercy...  especially to us that, had we lived in those olden days of fiery prophets like Moses and Jeremiah, we would 'prolly be part of the toasted masses.  
But today... we are given that (earthly unexplainable) window of mercy & grace by which we see the message of Life and Forgiveness more clearly than our OT counterparts did.

Better than my attempted ramblings at such a tough subject, consider these words in Hebrews for perspective (my emphasis added in blue to the subject matter), and I'll end with them.

 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30196">23</sup>By faith Moses, when  he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he  was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30197">24</sup>By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30198">25</sup>Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30199">26</sup>Esteeming  the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for  he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30200">27</sup>By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30201">28</sup>Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest He that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30202">29</sup>By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land(mercy): which the Egyptians attempting to do so were drowned(sin judged). 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30203">30</sup>By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30204">31</sup>By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30205">32</sup>And  what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon,  and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel,  and of the prophets: 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30206">33</sup>Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions. 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30207">34</sup>Quenched  the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness  were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of  the aliens. 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30208">35</sup>(a)Women  received their dead raised to life again: 



(right in the middle of this verse, the tide changes for the faithful as well.  Even the redeemed of the Lord are not promised the "easy life", as Jesus Himself said, "In this world you WILL have tribulation"...)



(b) and others were tortured, not  accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30209">36</sup>And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30210">37</sup>They  were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the  sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute,  afflicted, tormented; 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30211">38</sup>(Of whom the world was not worthy) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30212">39</sup>And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 
 <sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-30213">40</sup>God having provided some better thing for us (Christ the Lord!), that they without us should not be made perfect.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 13, 2011)

In the OT, sins were said to be punished to as much as the second and third generation of the fathers who commited them. This could include children. When people say that it was because of sins that these killings took place, I would think about the babies who I consider innocent. So this does not address the issue of selling a loving God in regards to the OT, but it adds to the equation


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## JB0704 (Nov 13, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> like what did Jobs children do to deserve death. I don't question Gods judgements, just the reality of these stories.



On the story of Job, I agree.  Not only were his kids killed, but all of the servants, etc. And not by God, but by satan using men and natural elements (but God allowed it).  We had a long thread about this topic, I think there were only a few of us that wondered if Job was Jewish didactic poetry.   That's what I tend to think it is.  If so, then does that help understand the apparent difference between treatment of people in the OT and NT?


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## bullethead (Nov 13, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> In the OT, sins were said to be punished to as much as the second and third generation of the fathers who commited them. This could include children. When people say that it was because of sins that these killings took place, I would think about the babies who I consider innocent. So this does not address the issue of selling a loving God in regards to the OT, but it adds to the equation



Hence the NEED for a NT and God.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 13, 2011)

The problem That I'm having is expressing my thoughts without opening up the debate of being chosen


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## gtparts (Nov 14, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> Just about everyone I know is of Christian belief. And to be honest, its hard in the south to be someone who doesnt believe what your friends and peers were comfortabaly indoctrinated into believing. I say that because most, not all, but most that I know grew up in and around it and have never done any research of thier own. Therefore its not good to have a logical and questioning conversation with them about any of it.
> 
> That is why I enjoy this forum so much. There are some very intelligent and good answering Christians that visit this forum such as Thanatos, Ted and String etc, that maybe able to help me understand how you can justify the OT.
> 
> ...



The OT, especially, the difficult matter of some parts of the Mosaic law and directives from God on the treatment of some enemies (foreign and domestic), causes most to be repelled to some degree, when superficially examined. To understand, one must grasp some truths, some absolutes, about God.

First, He is holy, He is sovereign, He is perfect. He has always taken extreme exception to things unholy, particularly disobedience. He expressed His will about not eating from a particular tree and informed Adam and Eve of the consequences if they disobeyed. They (and all their offspring to come) were separated from God's grace, eternal life (both a physical and a spiritual death). God had already set forth the consequences of such disobedient behavior; "... for in that day you shall surely die." "That day" should not be taken to mean "in that 24 hr. period", but that every person would experience a personal physical death from that point forward.

This means that absolutely all people would die sooner or later, so your "compassionate" attitude toward the enemies of God's chosen people or those Israelites who transgressed His law, who would die a physical death, makes no logical sense. In Adam, all will experience death. The only noted exceptions would be those, who by God's grace, were "taken up" by Him and spared the experience of dying. Enoch comes to mind. (Hebrews 11:4-6) 

And this is where some cry "Foul! God isn't fair, to spare some but not others". But, you see, those who perish get exactly what was promised through Adam's passing his sin nature on to us all. Those who place their faith in God, He declares them to be righteous (being right with God), their sins (actions contrary to the will of God) forgiven. Forgiven? How can that be? Well, the Son of God, being perfect and holy, took our punishment on the cross. He experienced the full penalty of our sin so that we would not have experience it.

If you are truly interested in how all this works, do a serious study of Romans, with help from the likes of Warren W. Wiersbe.  or others qualified by their depth of education and commitment to understanding the truth.


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 14, 2011)

Can we flip this script for a second?

Everyone knows my theological bias. 

But imagine for a second that the Bible wasn't, like the Koran, dictated by an Angel in English directly to the printers of the first King James Bible. But instead is a collection of writings, written by human beings, documenting the struggles a human tribe (the Israelites) and its spiritual progeny (the Gentiles following the words of a Jewish sage and his most vigorous proponent).

From the very beginning, the Jews realised they were "wrestling with God". That they were striving to get back to grace, to understand God, to understand what was happening in terms of their beliefs of their own relationship with Godhead.

Then imagine that after the death of a very, very special man who, regardless of whether they believe him myth or man, Messiah or madman, was incredibly influential in terms of human history- people wrote letters about doctrine. And then drew up four sketches of his life, in some cases basing them on each other.

The New Testament is written without punctuation or word breaks in the original. So any translation and/or interpretation has a theological bias, and any errors in transcription can have devastating consequences in terms of understanding. I can elaborate, if anyone cares.

At the end of the day - we're struggling with what the Scriptures are supposed to BE. And maybe, and it's my belief, that's part of God's plan - that every time we try and codify, write down, idolize, stratify, or understand God's will as a LAW we can codify and then find loopholes in, we're frustrated. And have to go back to the very unambiguous and much harder teachings of Jesus - which are - be nice to each other, and love and thank God. Period. End of story.


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