# Coram Deo



## Bob2010 (Jun 29, 2021)

I am not nearly as sophisticated as many on this forum are. I once tried to pick a fight on the atheist page. Sad that they knew more about the bible than myself and most of my church members did. Lots of bitterness towards the church. I don't want to poke the bear again here. I teach kids at Sunday School every week.  We ditch the format and read the scripture and discuss it. You would be amazed at what kids can retain and learn! They love getting the truth straight from the bible. We have  been on a long run of studying Paul's various letters to the church. Infact last week we covered Paul turning from his Jewish earned grace, law abiding righteousness, and his prideful pure Jewish heritage. He turned to the point where he decided to stop trying to offer his Jewish people Christ.  Instead he would focus his attention on offering the Gentiles salvation.  Seems salvation and grace though faith and love in Jesus Christ was better recieved by the Gentiles.  Interesting that this forum lumps Christianity and Judaism together.  Back in biblical days this was necessary. Christianity was a sect of Judaism. Rome considered us Christians to be a problem for Judaism.  Not for the courts of Rome to deal with. So I wonder why we are lumped together here on this forum? Dumb luck? Is the hope that those of us that are saved and enjoying the freedom  from our sins found through the Lord Jesus  may offer hope and salvation to those that have denied Jesus as Lord? Or are we Christians still just a sect of Judaism?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 29, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> I am not nearly as sophisticated as many on this forum are. I once tried to pick a fight on the atheist page. Sad that they knew more about the bible than myself and most of my church members did. Lots of bitterness towards the church. I don't want to poke the bear again here. I teach kids at Sunday School every week.  We ditch the format and read the scripture and discuss it. You would be amazed at what kids can retain and learn! They love getting the truth straight from the bible. We have  been on a long run of studying Paul's various letters to the church. Infact last week we covered Paul turning from his Jewish earned grace, law abiding righteousness, and his prideful pure Jewish heritage. He turned to the point where he decided to stop trying to offer his Jewish people Christ.  Instead he would focus his attention on offering the Gentiles salvation.  Seems salvation and grace though faith and love in Jesus Christ was better recieved by the Gentiles.  Interesting that this forum lumps Christianity and Judaism together.  Back in biblical days this was necessary. Christianity was a sect of Judaism. Rome considered us Christians to be a problem for Judaism.  Not for the courts of Rome to deal with. So I wonder why we are lumped together here on this forum? Dumb luck? Is the hope that those of us that are saved and enjoying the freedom  from our sins found through the Lord Jesus  may offer hope and salvation to those that have denied Jesus as Lord? Or are we Christians still just a sect of Judaism?





> So I wonder why we are lumped together here on this forum?



Maybe because Christianity sprouted from Judaism.  Maybe it's just a catch-all forum created for everything that doesn't fit the other forums.  I dunno.



> Is the hope that those of us that are saved and enjoying the freedom  from our sins found through the Lord Jesus  may offer hope and salvation to those that have denied Jesus as Lord?



Well if that would pretty much fit the broad definition of The Gospel



> Or are we Christians still just a sect of Judaism?



Nope.  Christianity is all encompassing, to include the religion of Judaism.  It swallows them all up.  It's not a splinter off of Judaism although in the Early Church Age it was considered as such by those outside of it, but never those within it.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jun 29, 2021)

Agree completely.  It's just interesting to me they grouped us together.  Its almost like they grouped us with aitheiest. That's extreme but the Jewish people and the Christians have been butting heads for years. Martin Luther and Paul hit that wall and moved on. They killed Jesus! I just wonder if any thinking went into the the grouping on the forum.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 30, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> Agree completely.  It's just interesting to me they grouped us together.  Its almost like they grouped us with aitheiest. That's extreme but the Jewish people and the Christians have been butting heads for years. Martin Luther and Paul hit that wall and moved on. They killed Jesus! I just wonder if any thinking went into the the grouping on the forum.



Even Atheist believe in something, but it's probably more accurate to classify people as either Theist or Non-Theist and then go from there.  Atheist are a sub-set of Non-Theist.  Everybody believes in something. Non Theist believe in no God, but that in itself is a belief and Atheism is just one belief system that flows from that assumption Just as Theist can be further subdivided into the various belief systems they subscribe to Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, etc, and then further into Baptist, Catholic, etc. Non-Theist can be subdivided into the subsequent beliefs they subscribe to Atheism, Agnosticism, Skepticism, etc. and Atheist can be further subdivided into Humanist, Freethinkers, etc.   Like I said.  Everyone believes in something.  Believing something/someone doesn't exist is still belief and is a point very few get when arguing separation of church and state.  It would have been great if the Framers of the Constitution had the insight to recognize this, but they missed it too, as does the Supreme Court.  Every time they rule against "The Church" and their belief system, they don't get that by doing so they are in fact, ruling in favor of another belief system, just as many Non Theist don't consider the fact that by denying one belief system, they are in fact, subscribing to another.


----------



## Israel (Jun 30, 2021)

I ain't been around since its inception but from what I understand the AAA forum was formed by a request submitted after the "spiritual" forum was already here.

A place where they too might discuss...


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 30, 2021)

If you read Romans 11, you will see the connection.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jun 30, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> If you read Romans 11, you will see the connection.



I understand the connection in the bible and with Paul. Saul was as pure a jew as anyone.  I also see Paul hoping to make his own Jewish people envious of salvation in Hope's a few will turn to Christ. Then you also have the hardening of the heart done by God. The non elect will be sacrificed for the elect. In the case of Roman's 11 the elect appear to be Gentiles.  Seems the forum group could be Judaism Pharisees and Sadducees. Then Christianity elect and non elect. Lol! I am joking. Surely the forum creators were not just trying to make the Jewish people envious of our salvation? Or insinuating that God made the Jewish heart hard therefore they will never love Jesus? I mean if this is a shared page we must be able to talk about what the bible says about earning salvation through works verse grace and faith in Christ.  Is this appropriate forum for me to ask why Jewish people don't sacrifice animals to be forgiven for thier sins?


----------



## Bob2010 (Jun 30, 2021)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Even Atheist believe in something, but it's probably more accurate to classify people as either Theist or Non-Theist and then go from there.  Atheist are a sub-set of Non-Theist.  Everybody believes in something. Non Theist believe in no God, but that in itself is a belief and Atheism is just one belief system that flows from that assumption Just as Theist can be further subdivided into the various belief systems they subscribe to Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, etc, and then further into Baptist, Catholic, etc. Non-Theist can be subdivided into the subsequent beliefs they subscribe to Atheism, Agnosticism, Skepticism, etc. and Atheist can be further subdivided into Humanist, Freethinkers, etc.   Like I said.  Everyone believes in something.  Believing something/someone doesn't exist is still belief and is a point very few get when arguing separation of church and state.  It would have been great if the Framers of the Constitution had the insight to recognize this, but they missed it too, as does the Supreme Court.  Every time they rule against "The Church" and their belief system, they don't get that by doing so they are in fact, ruling in favor of another belief system, just as many Non Theist don't consider the fact that by denying one belief system, they are in fact, subscribing to another.



 Without Christ and the bible there is no real moral compass.  Belief in anything beyond that is idol worship.  Any belief outside of Christ leaves us making our own rules and acting as if we are a God.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jul 1, 2021)

Some of evangelical [which are bible based]  churches ( believers), understand that Israel is intertwined to Christianity. In the past yes. But especially in end time prophecy.

1."The tenet of Christian Zionism is that God’s promise of the Holy Land to the Jews is eternal. It’s not just something in antiquity,” Oldmixon said. “When we talk about the Holy Land, God’s promise of the Holy Land, we’re talking about real estate on both sides of the Jordan River. So the sense of a greater Israel and expansionism is really important to this community. Jerusalem is just central to that. It’s viewed as a historical and biblical capital.”

2.“What kick-starts the end times into motion is Israel’s political boundaries being reestablished to what God promised the Israelites according to the Bible,” Pastor Nate Pyle told Newsweek in January. 





Source:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-important-for-fulfilling-end-times-prophecy/


----------



## Madman (Jul 1, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> I am not nearly as sophisticated as many on this forum are. I once tried to pick a fight on the atheist page. Sad that they knew more about the bible than myself and most of my church members did. Lots of bitterness towards the church. I don't want to poke the bear again here. I teach kids at Sunday School every week.  We ditch the format and read the scripture and discuss it. You would be amazed at what kids can retain and learn! They love getting the truth straight from the bible. We have  been on a long run of studying Paul's various letters to the church. Infact last week we covered Paul turning from his Jewish earned grace, law abiding righteousness, and his prideful pure Jewish heritage. He turned to the point where he decided to stop trying to offer his Jewish people Christ.  Instead he would focus his attention on offering the Gentiles salvation.  Seems salvation and grace though faith and love in Jesus Christ was better recieved by the Gentiles.  Interesting that this forum lumps Christianity and Judaism together.  Back in biblical days this was necessary. Christianity was a sect of Judaism. Rome considered us Christians to be a problem for Judaism.  Not for the courts of Rome to deal with. So I wonder why we are lumped together here on this forum? Dumb luck? Is the hope that those of us that are saved and enjoying the freedom  from our sins found through the Lord Jesus  may offer hope and salvation to those that have denied Jesus as Lord? Or are we Christians still just a sect of Judaism?


The Church that Christ Jesus started is the fulfillment of what was began with Israel.   There is a lot of history there.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 1, 2021)

Count me as one who has been “lumped together” with our brother Judah.   It’s not hard to see that although our faith began with Jews, MEN removed anything that looked “Jewish” about our faith (ie Sabbath, Feasts, etc).  God didn’t do it; men did it.  

Don’t want to derail this thread but we (my family and me) keep sabbath and GOD’S - not the Jews’ - feast days.   It has revolutionized my walk with our Messiah


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 1, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> I understand the connection in the bible and with Paul. Saul was as pure a jew as anyone.  I also see Paul hoping to make his own Jewish people envious of salvation in Hope's a few will turn to Christ. Then you also have the hardening of the heart done by God. The non elect will be sacrificed for the elect. In the case of Roman's 11 the elect appear to be Gentiles.  Seems the forum group could be Judaism Pharisees and Sadducees. Then Christianity elect and non elect. Lol! I am joking. Surely the forum creators were not just trying to make the Jewish people envious of our salvation? Or insinuating that God made the Jewish heart hard therefore they will never love Jesus? I mean if this is a shared page we must be able to talk about what the bible says about earning salvation through works verse grace and faith in Christ.  Is this appropriate forum for me to ask why Jewish people don't sacrifice animals to be forgiven for thier sins?


Romans 11 shows that God's covenant with physical Israel can't be done away with. It shows that their eyes were blinded to let salvation go out to the Gentiles. It then tells the we are grafted into that nation as for as salvation is concerned.
Do not be ignorant of this mystery/secret;
Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
After that God will remove all sin from Israel. "And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins."


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 1, 2021)

You have to start with the fact that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. We see this in Romans 11 when a Remnant was chosen by grace and not works otherwise it would not be grace. After that Romans 11 talks about how Israel is still loved because of the patriarchs. That part of their covenant still stands. God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.
30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,
31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.
Paul tells us we won't understand this concept/mystery/secret.

33 O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?”…


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 1, 2021)

Keep in mind that Paul tells us in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2 that, once we accept Jesus and His atoning work, we are grafted into Gods nation - Israel.   We who were “once Gentiles”    The New Covenant was to be with Judah and Israel.  Btw, only Israel gets to enter the New Jerusalem.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 1, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Keep in mind that Paul tells us in Romans 11 and Ephesians 2 that, once we accept Jesus and His atoning work, we are grafted into Gods nation - Israel.   We who were “once Gentiles”    The New Covenant was to be with Judah and Israel.  Btw, only Israel gets to enter the New Jerusalem.


Ephesians 2 also says; 
 15 by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jul 1, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> Without Christ and the bible there is no real moral compass.  Belief in anything beyond that is idol worship.  Any belief outside of Christ leaves us making our own rules and acting as if we are a God.



I think *all* men have a moral compass, God's witness(for lack of a better term) inside of us.  Paul talks about it when he said " For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, *being understood* from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.", but the longer and the more one denies that witness the more faint it becomes.  Eventually it becomes completely inaudible, drowned out by the selfish desires of the individual.  Man can only worship and serve one master: God or himself, as you alluded to above.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 1, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Ephesians 2 also says;
> 15 by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees.



And then, in Ephesians 6, Paul tells us to obey a commandment.  Lol

Eph 6:2.  Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise

So, you believe that Jesus abolished the Law?


----------



## Bob2010 (Jul 1, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> You have to start with the fact that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. We see this in Romans 11 when a Remnant was chosen by grace and not works otherwise it would not be grace. After that Romans 11 talks about how Israel is still loved because of the patriarchs. That part of their covenant still stands. God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.
> 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,
> 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.
> Paul tells us we won't understand this concept/mystery/secret.
> ...



I believe God loves all of us. That certainly does not mean he will save all of us.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 1, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> And then, in Ephesians 6, Paul tells us to obey a commandment.  Lol
> 
> Eph 6:2.  Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
> 
> So, you believe that Jesus abolished the Law?


Plus Paul came out with all those rule about women. What they can wear and not wear. What they can do and not do. Who is their head, etc. Paul kinda goes back and forth between rules and grace.
One passage he's all about that grace, another he's all about the rules.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 1, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> I believe God loves all of us. That certainly does not mean he will save all of us.


Yet he didn't blind all of us like he did the Jews in Romans 11. It appears that God chose a remnant by grace and hardened the rest, His choice, to let salvation go out into the world.

I can't say that I agree with what God did in Romans 11. Paul even said who am I to question what God did in Romans 11. God had a covenant with Israel. Romans 11 says all sin will be removed from Zion.

29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,
31 so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.

34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?" 35“Who has first given to God, that God should repay him?”


----------



## Madman (Jul 1, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Count me as one who has been “lumped together” with our brother Judah.   It’s not hard to see that although our faith began with Jews, MEN removed anything that looked “Jewish” about our faith (ie Sabbath, Feasts, etc).  God didn’t do it; men did it.
> 
> Don’t want to derail this thread but we (my family and me) keep sabbath and GOD’S - not the Jews’ - feast days.   It has revolutionized my walk with our Messiah


That would be a good thread to start.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jul 1, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> And then, in Ephesians 6, Paul tells us to obey a commandment.  Lol
> 
> Eph 6:2.  Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise
> 
> So, you believe that Jesus abolished the Law?



Paul never once insinuated that Jesus abolished the law. Infact Jesus was the only man to ever keep the law perfectly.  Jesus showed us that our motives behind keeping the law are just as important as keeping the law. Maybe even more important! However Paul is clear that keeping the law won


Madman said:


> That would be a good thread to start.



We have some masonic Jews at our church.  I believe them to be saved and they love Jesus.  They celebrate the feast and they get touchy about Easter and Christmas.  They claim the bible doesn't tell us to celebrate those events like we do. Also they say the dates of Easter and Christmas were based on the dates of pagan holidays.  Converts wanted to keep holiday dates? I'm sure there is some truth to this. I still will celebrate Easter and Christmas though.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jul 1, 2021)

Madman said:


> The Church that Christ Jesus started is the fulfillment of what was began with Israel.   There is a lot of history there.



I completely agree.  But they flat out refused Jesus as the Messiah.  Martin Luther lost his mind after a lifetime of devotion to offering salvation to God's chosen people.  Rejection took its toll. Seems we would have 2 separate forums. This is a pretty big stumbling block to overcome.  One group believes Jesus is Lord and the other rejected their own Messiah.  Pretty big differences to overcome. I just wonder if it happened by happenstance or there is a motive or reason for it.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jul 1, 2021)

Israel said:


> For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither _is that_ circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he _is_ a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision _is that_ of the heart, in the spirit, _and_ not in the letter; whose praise _is_ not of men, but of God.
> 
> Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
> 
> ...



Circumcision set Jews apart to belong to the Jewish faith. Baptism is circumcision of the heart. Circumcision is Jewish baptism really.  Except it doesn't save them.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 2, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> I completely agree.  But they flat out refused Jesus as the Messiah.  Martin Luther lost his mind after a lifetime of devotion to offering salvation to God's chosen people.  Rejection took its toll. Seems we would have 2 separate forums. This is a pretty big stumbling block to overcome.  One group believes Jesus is Lord and the other rejected their own Messiah.  Pretty big differences to overcome. I just wonder if it happened by happenstance or there is a motive or reason for it.


It appears though in Romans 11, their rejection was necessary for the Gentiles to be grafted in. A Remnant was chosen and the rest were hardened to this day. They are doing the will of God. It was necessary for Jesus to be crucified. It was God's plan. God gave us His son. The Cross removed the wall between the Jews and Gentiles. 
The connection to Israel is now stronger due to the grafting.  Reading Romans 11 theirs is due to the Patriarchs and that covenant. God never renigs on his promises. We can't even get too cocky on this grafting or we can be removed. It's not like we can say "ha, ha you Jews, we are in and you are out!" The redeemer will come from Zion and remove all sin from Zion.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 2, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> We have some masonic Jews at our church.  I believe them to be saved and they love Jesus.  They celebrate the feast and they get touchy about Easter and Christmas.  They claim the bible doesn't tell us to celebrate those events like we do. Also they say the dates of Easter and Christmas were based on the dates of pagan holidays.  Converts wanted to keep holiday dates? I'm sure there is some truth to this. I still will celebrate Easter and Christmas though.



I, too, no longer celebrate Easter or Christmas as a simple search of the origins of these holidays will show anyone who cares their pagan origin.  I celebrate God’s feasts - they’re not Jewish feast - and they are forever.  Paul also instructs us (Gentiles) to keep them.  

Keep in mind that Jews reject Jesus MAINLY for one reason; Deut 13.  God told Israel (us) to reject any prophet that does not teach what Moses taught.  Most churches have propogated that lie that Jesus abolished the Law, and that is what they’ve heard


----------



## j_seph (Jul 2, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> Without Christ and the bible there is no real moral compass.  Belief in anything beyond that is idol worship.  Any belief outside of Christ *leaves us making our own rules and acting as if we are a God*.


So wouldn't that make Atheist be a God? But wait then that would mean Atheist are not really what they say they are  So wouldn't they be Agnostics


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 2, 2021)

j_seph said:


> So wouldn't that make Atheist be a God? But wait then that would mean Atheist are not really what they say they are  So wouldn't they be Agnostics


As would the Hindu and Muslims. Under Bob's definition which he used to make the Jews a God. 
What his is saying is beyond believing in Christ and His Father one is worshiping idols. Therefore anyone not doing so can only have the morals that they made themselves making them a god in doing so. Yes by this definition Atheist are gods.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 2, 2021)

j_seph said:


> So wouldn't that make Atheist be a God? But wait then that would mean Atheist are not really what they say they are  So wouldn't they be Agnostics


One thing I've noticed and related to Christians associating with Jews or Hindus, etc. is Freemasonry. To be one you only have to believe in "any" god to include the God of Abraham. Therefore by association it's an organization of idol worshipers. This is  just an example of what you are saying we are doing by lumping Christianity with Judiasm.

Also thinking this same way, how can we have such a vague forum of Christians as some believe in Oneness vs the Trinity, etc. If some believe they can save themselves, etc. Lordship Salvation vs Easy Believism.  Some people think many of us may be worshiping a "different" Jesus that the real one just by making him the Father incarnate or and eternal son. Or not an eternal son.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jul 2, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> It appears though in Romans 11, their rejection was necessary for the Gentiles to be grafted in. A Remnant was chosen and the rest were hardened to this day. They are doing the will of God. It was necessary for Jesus to be crucified. It was God's plan. God gave us His son. The Cross removed the wall between the Jews and Gentiles.
> The connection to Israel is now stronger due to the grafting.  Reading Romans 11 theirs is due to the Patriarchs and that covenant. God never renigs on his promises. We can't even get too cocky on this grafting or we can be removed. It's not like we can say "ha, ha you Jews, we are in and you are out!" The redeemer will come from Zion and remove all sin from Zion.



One thing is for sure! We better not boast. It very well could of been any of us that He chose to harden.  I certainly don't deserve to be the elect. However I guess we can't say that either.  Insinuates that I am arrogant and prideful. So instead I will just be thankful my hard is not hardened.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jul 2, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I, too, no longer celebrate Easter or Christmas as a simple search of the origins of these holidays will show anyone who cares their pagan origin.  I celebrate God’s feasts - they’re not Jewish feast - and they are forever.  Paul also instructs us (Gentiles) to keep them.
> 
> Keep in mind that Jews reject Jesus MAINLY for one reason; Deut 13.  God told Israel (us) to reject any prophet that does not teach what Moses taught.  Most churches have propogated that lie that Jesus abolished the Law, and that is what they’ve heard


 
I agree about some churches.  But not all! I can only imagine what it would of been like to have Christmas removed.  We have celebrated it for so many years. Then suddenly we can't do it anymore.  My point is that they don't know the actual date of Christmas and Easter. They chose to celebrate it to replace the old traditions of pagan beliefs. In todays time it is not a sin to celebrate Jesus.  It may not be in the Bible that we have to celebrate Jesus.  But it's not a sin to celebrate him. The feast thing is interesting to me. I know the bible says we are supposed to do it. The problem is the Jewish people from what I understand believe they don't have to sacrifice animals anymore for thier sins. The feast makes them right with God. Why would I encourage something that justifies one not repenting and needing Jesus to be right with God? I don't need a feast when I have Jesus.  However the law is still as important today as it was then. Jesus did not abolish the law. He teaches us our motives in keeping the law are just as important as keeping the law. We can't do either perfectly.  That's why we need Jesus.  The feast won't do it. That would be works based salvation.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jul 2, 2021)

j_seph said:


> So wouldn't that make Atheist be a God? But wait then that would mean Atheist are not really what they say they are  So wouldn't they be Agnostics



**** if I know! I just know without the Bible and Jesus people can justify anything! They have no moral standard.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 2, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> **** if I know! I just know without the Bible and Jesus people can justify anything! They have no moral standard.


They could still have a moral standard, it would just not be the Christian one. It could be a Hindu standard and maybe not even a Religious standard. Maybe a community standard passed on from one village to another village of civilized people. Or a generation of villagers who pass it on to the next generation.

Plus since salvation is based on grace and election, where ones morals come from isn't really that important. We are all like filthy rags. None of us are righteous.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 2, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> The feast makes them right with God. Why would I encourage something that justifies one not repenting and needing Jesus to be right with God? I don't need a feast when I have Jesus.  However the law is still as important today as it was then. Jesus did not abolish the law. He teaches us our motives in keeping the law are just as important as keeping the law. We can't do either perfectly.  That's why we need Jesus.  The feast won't do it. That would be works based salvation.



The feasts are God's feasts, and were never for making one right with God.  It took blood being spilled for that.    Everyone will be keeping the feasts in the millenial reign, and we (Gentiles) are told to keep them by Paul.    Also, if you want to understand the 1st coming of the Messiah, you see that perfectly fulfilled in the spring feasts.   If you want to understand His 2nd coming, you need to study the as-yet unfulfilled Fall feasts.    Christianity today, having zero understanding of the feasts of God, can't explain how Jesus was 3 days and 3 nights in the grave.   I know, because I read various christian commentators when I was young to see what they said about it.  They, too, had silly bogus answers that never accounted for 3 nights.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 3, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> The feasts are God's feasts, and were never for making one right with God.  It took blood being spilled for that.    Everyone will be keeping the feasts in the millenial reign, and we (Gentiles) are told to keep them by Paul.    Also, if you want to understand the 1st coming of the Messiah, you see that perfectly fulfilled in the spring feasts.   If you want to understand His 2nd coming, you need to study the as-yet unfulfilled Fall feasts.    Christianity today, having zero understanding of the feasts of God, can't explain how Jesus was 3 days and 3 nights in the grave.   I know, because I read various christian commentators when I was young to see what they said about it.  They, too, had silly bogus answers that never accounted for 3 nights.


I would love to hear the 3 nights answer if you get a minute. Either on this thread or a new one.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 3, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would love to hear the 3 nights answer if you get a minute. Either on this thread or a new one.



I’ll start a new thread.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jul 3, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> The feasts are God's feasts, and were never for making one right with God.  It took blood being spilled for that.    Everyone will be keeping the feasts in the millenial reign, and we (Gentiles) are told to keep them by Paul.    Also, if you want to understand the 1st coming of the Messiah, you see that perfectly fulfilled in the spring feasts.   If you want to understand His 2nd coming, you need to study the as-yet unfulfilled Fall feasts.    Christianity today, having zero understanding of the feasts of God, can't explain how Jesus was 3 days and 3 nights in the grave.   I know, because I read various christian commentators when I was young to see what they said about it.  They, too, had silly bogus answers that never accounted for 3 nights.



I know the Bible says that the feast are important. I aslo believe you to be far more educated than I am in the matter. I know dates and timelines are fuzzy. I also believe when Rome pushed Christianity so they could govern the people many dates and timelines were adjusted to accommodate pagan traditions that were lost. I don't believe that was the right thing to do at the time but it was most certainly God's will. I am told the Jewish people participate in the feast instead of sacrificing animals today. They admittedly have a sin problem and the only solution is the feast because by law they can't sacrifice animals. This is a works based feast that replaces the need for sacrifice and furthermore the need for Jesus. Why would a Christian partake in works based forgiveness alongside Jews who reject Christ and no longer sacrifice animals? Serious question.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jul 3, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> They could still have a moral standard, it would just not be the Christian one. It could be a Hindu standard and maybe not even a Religious standard. Maybe a community standard passed on from one village to another village of civilized people. Or a generation of villagers who pass it on to the next generation.
> 
> Plus since salvation is based on grace and election, where ones morals come from isn't really that important. We are all like filthy rags. None of us are righteous.



This is just false. I believe the scripture to say both election and free will exist at the same time. Just like the Trinity can't be understood by us. We are not capable of wrapping our minds around both free will and election existing together.  Both are certainly biblical! This is a different conversation though.  Jesus did not abolish the law nor are we to do whatever we want to do because we are the elect or we are not the elect. We have no free pass and are not mindless robots. However I do believe many of those that struggle with the biblical truth of election are just scared that they are not the elect. For example they hope participating in a feast or keeping the law will save them. It won't.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 3, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> This is just false. I believe the scripture to say both election and free will exist at the same time. Just like the Trinity can't be understood by us. We are not capable of wrapping our minds around both free will and election existing together.  Both are certainly biblical! This is a different conversation though.  Jesus did not abolish the law nor are we to do whatever we want to do because we are the elect or we are not the elect. We have no free pass and are not mindless robots. However I do believe many of those that struggle with the biblical truth of election are just scared that they are not the elect. For example they hope participating in a feast or keeping the law will save them. It won't.


I don't think I mentioned free will and election any different that you did.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 3, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> This is just false. I believe the scripture to say both election and free will exist at the same time. Just like the Trinity can't be understood by us. We are not capable of wrapping our minds around both free will and election existing together.  Both are certainly biblical! This is a different conversation though.  Jesus did not abolish the law nor are we to do whatever we want to do because we are the elect or we are not the elect. We have no free pass and are not mindless robots. However I do believe many of those that struggle with the biblical truth of election are just scared that they are not the elect. For example they hope participating in a feast or keeping the law will save them. It won't.


I do believe morals are important, they like works though, are not a part of salvation by grace.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

This just explains it's salvation from grace and not works. Other parts from Paul explains the importance of morals, works, fruits, etc. with help from the Spirit.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 3, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> This is just false. I believe the scripture to say both election and free will exist at the same time. Just like the Trinity can't be understood by us. We are not capable of wrapping our minds around both free will and election existing together.  Both are certainly biblical! This is a different conversation though.  Jesus did not abolish the law nor are we to do whatever we want to do because we are the elect or we are not the elect. We have no free pass and are not mindless robots. However I do believe many of those that struggle with the biblical truth of election are just scared that they are not the elect. For example they hope participating in a feast or keeping the law will save them. It won't.


I would agree there is a lot in the Bible that is a mystery/secret. The whole Jewish Gentile deliverance concept is still a mystery to me. Why did God choose Israel only to harden their hearts so that the gospel could go out to the Gentiles? Why even choose a nation to begin with? Why all that genealogy if it was suppose to be cast aside as meaningless after the Cross? Why remove the barrier and graft in the Gentiles instead of never having a barrier to begin with. God is the one who chose Israel.

Plus like you said the Trinity/unity/oneness thing with diversity. Most definitely the free will and predestination thing. And the works and grace thing.  Lots of mysteries.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jul 3, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would agree there is a lot in the Bible that is a mystery/secret. The whole Jewish Gentile deliverance concept is still a mystery to me. Why did God choose Israel only to harden their hearts so that the gospel could go out to the Gentiles? Why even choose a nation to begin with? Why all that genealogy if it was suppose to be cast aside as meaningless after the Cross? Why remove the barrier and graft in the Gentiles instead of never having a barrier to begin with. God is the one who chose Israel.
> 
> Plus like you said the Trinity/unity/oneness thing with diversity. Most definitely the free will and predestination thing. And the works and grace thing.  Lots of mysteries.



They all lead me to one thing. God could of abolished sin completely.  Never allowed it to exist. What need would we have for Jesus if sin didn't exist?


----------



## Bob2010 (Jul 3, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> I do believe morals are important, they like works though, are not a part of salvation by grace.
> 
> Romans 11:6
> And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
> ...



Our works are a result of our faith. Just like our motives behind keeping the law are just as important as actually keeping the law. Our good works are a result of our faith in Christ. Good fruit.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jul 3, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't think I mentioned free will and election any different that you did.


 
This was in response to this part
*Plus since salvation is based on grace and election, where ones morals come from isn't really that important. *
This is almost like saying because of election there is no need to even try to keep the law. Morals are not that important but the rules set out in God's word are very important. My experience so far is that people that don't believe Christ is Lord can shape and mold a god that they understand. They can justify anything because they make thier own rules.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 4, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> Our works are a result of our faith. Just like our motives behind keeping the law are just as important as actually keeping the law. Our good works are a result of our faith in Christ. Good fruit.



I've heard it said that "our works are the FRUIT of our salvation, not the ROOT of our salvation".   Salvation should cause one to bear fruit eventually...

Question.... Do you know that, in heaven, some will be greater than others?   Some will also be lesser.   Jesus tells us what will make the difference.   Same thing when it comes to the New Jerusalem....some will be allowed in, others will have to remain outside


----------



## Bob2010 (Jul 4, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I've heard it said that "our works are the FRUIT of our salvation, not the ROOT of our salvation".   Salvation should cause one to bear fruit eventually...
> 
> Question.... Do you know that, in heaven, some will be greater than others?   Some will also be lesser.   Jesus tells us what will make the difference.   Same thing when it comes to the New Jerusalem....some will be allowed in, others will have to remain outside



I don't know much about the new Jerusalem.  I need to study more on that. I do remember learning that there are like levels in Heaven.  Mostly that our good works or fruit won't get us in to Heaven. We will be compensated in Heaven for our works. In other words the one who just believes in Jesus with very little fruit may get a small apartment in Heaven.  The one with lots of fruit and good works is storing up treasures in Heaven.  He may get an estate property with quail dogs and hot wives! He will rule over many nations. A card board box in Heaven is better than ****. I would just say that obviously my example of a quail plantation is fabricated by my imagination.  Bible doesn't say there will be marriage, dogs, or hunting in Heaven. That's the problem with the word treasures. God's idea of treasure is not the same as mine. His ideas of treasure exceeds my imagination.  But I do believe that one with more fruit will rule over others and have a higher position in Heaven.  I fear those that do Gods work simply with the motive of getting more in Heaven will regret that decision one day. That goes along with our motives for keeping God's laws being just as important as keeping the law. Jesus did not abolish the law.  He wants us to examine our motives.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 4, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> That goes along with our motives for keeping God's laws being just as important as keeping the law.



My motive for keeping God's Law is to show Him that I love Him.  (I Jn 5:3) Obedience is the only way He has ever asked us to show Him that we love Him.   It's not by praying or going to church; it's through obedience.   Most christians, though, can't imagine another believer obeying only out of love, but thousands all over the world are doing just that.   Deut 30:1-4

Jesus said in Matthew 5:*19*  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.    

Here's where it is stated who can enter the New Jerusalem (most Christians assume that they will be able to) through, BTW, one of the 12 tribal gates.  Rev 22:14,15

*14*  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

*15*  For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and *****mongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie

My hope is for a nice place on the ocean, and some prime Georgia QDM deer hunting land.   Oh, and I'd be happy with my wife there with me....even if we aren't married.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 4, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> Our works are a result of our faith. Just like our motives behind keeping the law are just as important as actually keeping the law. Our good works are a result of our faith in Christ. Good fruit.


If works are a result of our faith, what are morals? What I'm getting at is if we are all hopeless and without God before salvation. If we can't do good works until after salvation?

How do Hindu and Atheist do good works or at least have good morals?


----------



## Bob2010 (Jul 4, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> My motive for keeping God's Law is to show Him that I love Him.  (I Jn 5:3) Obedience is the only way He has ever asked us to show Him that we love Him.   It's not by praying or going to church; it's through obedience.   Most christians, though, can't imagine another believer obeying only out of love, but thousands all over the world are doing just that.   Deut 30:1-4
> 
> Jesus said in Matthew 5:*19*  Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
> 
> ...



This is awesome! I agree with all of it. So the Jewish people messed up the feast for us Christians. We could be obedient and still be saved by Christ Blood. The feast is how He wants us to celebrate him. We just do Christmas and Easter instead.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 4, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> This is awesome! I agree with all of it. So the Jewish people messed up the feast for us Christians. We could be obedient and still be saved by Christ Blood. The feast is how He wants us to celebrate him. We just do Christmas and Easter instead.



   We(my wife and me) celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus by keeping Passover and First Fruits.   Passover being the death of the Lamb, and First Fruits being the resurrection.    Gentile churches were keeping these feasts well after Jesus left, and we (anyone who attains to the resurrection) will be keeping several in the millenium.    Just can't do Easter anymore....too attached to paganism, as a quick Google search will show.   Doesn't matter to some, but it does to us.    To each his own...


----------



## Bob2010 (Jul 4, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> If works are a result of our faith, what are morals? What I'm getting at is if we are all hopeless and without God before salvation. If we can't do good works until after salvation?
> 
> How do Hindu and Atheist do good works or at least have good morals?



You lost me here. I'll tell you why.  I had church members go on and on about my testimony.  They said the Bible says we don't have the Holy Spirit until we are saved. They didn't! I would venture to say that they still don't! The relationship before salvation was like a Father looking over an ignorant child. After Salvation the relationship is different.  This is true if you are one of the elect.i can claim that I am the elect even if people think I am arrogant or claiming to be better than others. I'm not! I should of died several times over. God saved me more than once. There is certainly provision and grace for the ungrateful and still lost. Especially those who are chosen by God to belong to Jesus. We are not hopeless on earth before salvation Christ. We are hopeless for eternity without salvation in Christ.  Some go a lifetime and then burn in **** for eternity.  I was hopeless before salvation because I was chosen.  Yet I still ran away from Christ. That is a hopeless situation! Until you surrender that is. If one creates thier own god to worship than who makes the rules? I can pray to a door knob and get results if I am a wreck. A door Knob could do a better job with my life than I could of done as a teenager.  Ultimately I would still make the rules that I chose to live by. Idol worship is just that. We can justify anything because we have rejected the truth. The moral compass does not exist without the truth. The truth is Jesus Christ.  If you are saying I couldn't do good works before salvation Christ. That could be true. My motives were never for God before. It's not pleasing to the Lord when a miracle happens and I thank my door Knob and give it the credit instead of acknowledging the Lord. People can do good all day long. They just don't get any brownie points for it. True good works come from good motives. They are fruit that comes from loving Jesus.  Even Christians try to earn salvation.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 4, 2021)

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Since Jesus said all the Law hang on the two Laws of Love, I show my love for God by loving him and loving others. When Jesus came he summed up what it was all about. But I can see how that means different things to different people. To some if may mean to keep all the Law because it hangs on these. I can see it both ways, perhaps it's not a reduction.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 4, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> You lost me here. I'll tell you why.  I had church members go on and on about my testimony.  They said the Bible says we don't have the Holy Spirit until we are saved. They didn't! I would venture to say that they still don't! The relationship before salvation was like a Father looking over an ignorant child. After Salvation the relationship is different.  This is true if you are one of the elect.i can claim that I am the elect even if people think I am arrogant or claiming to be better than others. I'm not! I should of died several times over. God saved me more than once. There is certainly provision and grace for the ungrateful and still lost. Especially those who are chosen by God to belong to Jesus. We are not hopeless on earth before salvation Christ. We are hopeless for eternity without salvation in Christ.  Some go a lifetime and then burn in **** for eternity.  I was hopeless before salvation because I was chosen.  Yet I still ran away from Christ. That is a hopeless situation! Until you surrender that is. If one creates thier own god to worship than who makes the rules? I can pray to a door knob and get results if I am a wreck. A door Knob could do a better job with my life than I could of done as a teenager.  Ultimately I would still make the rules that I chose to live by. Idol worship is just that. We can justify anything because we have rejected the truth. The moral compass does not exist without the truth. The truth is Jesus Christ.  If you are saying I couldn't do good works before salvation Christ. That could be true. My motives were never for God before. It's not pleasing to the Lord when a miracle happens and I thank my door Knob and give it the credit instead of acknowledging the Lord. People can do good all day long. They just don't get any brownie points for it. True good works come from good motives. They are fruit that comes from loving Jesus.  Even Christians try to earn salvation.


You said; We are not hopeless on earth before salvation (in) Christ.

Ephesians 2:10-13
For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance as our way of life. 11 Therefore remember that formerly you who are Gentiles in the flesh and called uncircumcised by the so-called circumcision (that done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Were they not hopeless without God?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 4, 2021)

I'll sum up the main reasons I am a torah-observant believer in Yeshua (Jesus being His Greek name)  

1)  Jesus said I'd be great in heaven if I keep God's commandments.
2)  John (having direct instruction from Jesus) that obeying God's commandments are how we show Him love.
3)  Keeping the commandments will allow me into the New Jerusalem and not be stuck outside.  
4)  I want to be someone that the devil hates.

The devil doesn't hate Christians who believe in Jesus
The devil doesn't hate Jews who keep the commandments
The devil HATES (and many christians do too as witnessed here lol) a small remnant that believe in Jesus AND keep God's commandments   Rev 12:17 

Doesn't that make you feel good that the devil doesn't hate you?   ;-)


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 4, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I'll sum up the main reasons I am a torah-observant believer in Yeshua (Jesus being His Greek name)
> 
> 1)  Jesus said I'd be great in heaven if I keep God's commandments.
> 2)  John (having direct instruction from Jesus) that obeying God's commandments are how we show Him love.
> ...


I don't think Christians hate you for Torah keeping. Do you hate non-Torah keepers?

One more thing to throw out there. Some say when Jesus was teaching about keeping God's commandments, it was because it was before the Cross. Any thoughts on this concept?


----------



## Bob2010 (Jul 5, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> We(my wife and me) celebrate the death and resurrection of Jesus by keeping Passover and First Fruits.   Passover being the death of the Lamb, and First Fruits being the resurrection.    Gentile churches were keeping these feasts well after Jesus left, and we (anyone who attains to the resurrection) will be keeping several in the millenium.    Just can't do Easter anymore....too attached to paganism, as a quick Google search will show.   Doesn't matter to some, but it does to us.    To each his own...



I think this isagood thing.


----------



## Bob2010 (Jul 5, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't think Christians hate you for Torah keeping. Do you hate non-Torah keepers?
> 
> One more thing to throw out there. Some say when Jesus was teaching about keeping God's commandments, it was because it was before the Cross. Any thoughts on this concept?



To be clear about the devil. He hates everyone.  From experience I can tell you that he is different once you accept Christ as your savior.  His game is providing just enough worldly gain to keep us comfortable in his grasp. He becomes vicious when ones heart turns to Christ. God's laws never have been abolished and they never will be on this earth. Keeping the law is a good thing. Just won't save you.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 5, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> To be clear about the devil. He hates everyone.  From experience I can tell you that he is different once you accept Christ as your savior.  His game is providing just enough worldly gain to keep us comfortable in his grasp. He becomes vicious when ones heart turns to Christ. God's laws never have been abolished and they never will be on this earth. Keeping the law is a good thing. Just won't save you.



Correct.   Salvation is through faith alone, rewards are of merit.  

I find it interesting that in Acts 21, when Paul comes to Jerusalem and is told that people are lying about him, that Paul, James, and lots of believing elders in the council all thought that keeping the commandments was a sign of "walking upright" before God.   I constantly read believers spreading those lies about Paul still today...


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 5, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> To be clear about the devil. He hates everyone.  From experience I can tell you that he is different once you accept Christ as your savior.  His game is providing just enough worldly gain to keep us comfortable in his grasp. He becomes vicious when ones heart turns to Christ. God's laws never have been abolished and they never will be on this earth. Keeping the law is a good thing. Just won't save you.



Why do you think in Jesus' Revelation to John, that He says that the Devil specifically hates Christians that keep the commandments?  and, as I'm sure you'll agree, they are a small remnant compared to the billions of christians in the world.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 5, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't think Christians hate you for Torah keeping. Do you hate non-Torah keepers?
> 
> One more thing to throw out there. Some say when Jesus was teaching about keeping God's commandments, it was because it was before the Cross. Any thoughts on this concept?



lol   No, my best friends are what I call "Sunday Christians".   My best friend and I hash this stuff out all the time.   

I think that people who use the cross thing are just holding on to an excuse.  The last command Jesus gave, right before dying, was to keep Moses commandments.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 5, 2021)

Israel said:


> Shall evangelists keep a moel in company? Or are we to learn the trade ourselves?



???   Is this a circumcision question?   what do you mean by "in company"?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 5, 2021)

something I wanted to add was...  if we read only the words of our Messiah, and not Paul, there would be no confusion on obedience.   Also, Jesus said that His words were not His own, but from His Father.   Many talk as if Jesus was doing His own thing, separate and independent of the Father.   That is not true.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 5, 2021)

BTW....do you guys know if there are any Messianic Jews who frequent GON?   Some may just lurk....but wondered if any had ever declared.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 5, 2021)

Israel said:


> God knows how I esteem Jesus Christ...and how I esteem Paul.
> But just as I have abandoned trying to find the "line" the delineates (as if one existed) between Jesus and the Father, I am no longer inclined to try to vainly see what separates Paul from Messiah Jesus.
> 
> Do I confuse the two? God forbid. It is only because I hear Messiah working through a man like Paul, speaking through a man like Paul, patiently instructing through a man like Paul that I even begin to rightly see Paul.
> But God forbid I go about trying to find a line between in a man, about a man who to me, God knows, endured what He endured in Christ's declaration of unity within Himself of believers...to know and see the truth of such declaration. And not only so...but to participate in (and allow if one can receive it) such working in himself to the abandoning of all other standing except upon the mercy and grace of God shown in Christ.



No offense, brother.   I was just saying that Paul is difficult to understand, just as Peter warned in II Peter 3:15-17    Jesus is not hard to understand, and very direct in what He said.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 5, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> something I wanted to add was...  if we read only the words of our Messiah, and not Paul, there would be no confusion on obedience.   Also, Jesus said that His words were not His own, but from His Father.   Many talk as if Jesus was doing His own thing, separate and independent of the Father.   That is not true.


If we would have the words of Christ and all the apostles without Paul, we'd be a lot less confused on a lot of things, lol. People, including me, use Paul to show our beliefs regardless because he is all over the place. It's easy to see free will in his words but it's even easier to see predestination. 
Another example is his rules on wives and women. Plus his lists that will keep one out of the Kingdom. But he does say this about that list. "The difference is you were washed."


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 5, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> No offense, brother.   I was just saying that Paul is difficult to understand, just as Peter warned in II Peter 3:15-17    Jesus is not hard to understand, and very direct in what He said.


Only related in that it's from Paul, but do you think "Creation" in Romans 1 is Israel? Paul seems to quote Psalm 106:20 as in they knew God but chose to worship idols of images of animals. It's like this group in Romans 1 knew God way beyond some image of nature. Otherwise how could they "exchange" the worship of God for that of idols? We can't expect natives on a Pacific Island to worship God. They may indeed know him by nature but have they "exchanged" the worship of God for that of idols? Has God gave them a reprobate mind because they stop worshiping him?


----------



## gemcgrew (Jul 5, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> something I wanted to add was...  if we read only the words of our Messiah, and not Paul, there would be no confusion on obedience.


Paul's words are the words of our Messiah.


----------



## tell sackett (Jul 6, 2021)

gemcgrew said:


> Paul's words are the words of our Messiah.


This ^^^writ large


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 6, 2021)

Concerning Paul's mystery/secret. "It was made known to me by revelation." "I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ," The other Apostles were astonished at what Paul knew. Things they had witnessed in person.


----------



## tell sackett (Jul 8, 2021)

Israel said:


> Yes...even the things they had witnessed "in person" had to be revealed to them, no less.
> 
> Just as John was smitten as though dead when seeing the glory of the Lord on Patmos.
> 
> This was not the Jesus who could be advised or corrected.



Amen. I love that last sentence


----------



## Bob2010 (Aug 2, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Correct.   Salvation is through faith alone, rewards are of merit.
> 
> I find it interesting that in Acts 21, when Paul comes to Jerusalem and is told that people are lying about him, that Paul, James, and lots of believing elders in the council all thought that keeping the commandments was a sign of "walking upright" before God.   I constantly read believers spreading those lies about Paul still today...



Paul was no ordinary Jew when he was still Saul. He was trained by the best! Educated, Roman Citizen, and high ranking with the Sanhedrin. Paul did believe that God's laws were important. He just knew keeping God's law wouldn't save him.


----------



## Bob2010 (Aug 2, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Why do you think in Jesus' Revelation to John, that He says that the Devil specifically hates Christians that keep the commandments?  and, as I'm sure you'll agree, they are a small remnant compared to the billions of christians in the world.



To me there is a difference between a Christian and God's elect. I wouldn't go spouting that out at church.  But just because someone claims to love Jesus doesn't mean that they do. That's for God to judge.  Not me! The Devil does hate those that try to keep God's law. He hates everyone! Especially those that live for Christ.  We make the devils job harder. He really hates the elect. He knows he can't have them.


----------



## Bob2010 (Aug 2, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> BTW....do you guys know if there are any Messianic Jews who frequent GON?   Some may just lurk....but wondered if any had ever declared.



I still find it really hard to relate to masonic Jews. They seem bent on changing our traditions.  Just because it doesn't tell us dates in the bible. Just because the Bible doesn't tell us to celebrate Easter or Christmas. This doesn't make it a sin to celebrate our Savior. Once you accept Jesus as the Messiah you are a Christian.  Not A Jew. You can try to keep Gods laws. You can love Jesus as Lord. You can even be baptized. You can celebrate the feast instead of Christmas and Easter.  But you is a Christian now! I still haven't figured out why Gon stick us with the Jews on this page. Unless there are not any Jews on this forum? In which case they can be stuck on any of the forum pages. They just a need a home I guess???


----------



## Bob2010 (Aug 2, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> No offense, brother.   I was just saying that Paul is difficult to understand, just as Peter warned in II Peter 3:15-17    Jesus is not hard to understand, and very direct in what He said.



Ti me Peter is hard to understand.  Paul is my people! Not worthy of salvation.  Too many mistakes! Yet goes on to wrote more of the new testament than anyone else. That's how God rolls. He loves the under dog and shows His power through a nobody like Paul. Meantime the Apostles are arguing about who will be greater. To me Peter struggled with arrogance etc. Some relate to Paul over Peter.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 2, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> I still find it really hard to relate to masonic Jews. They seem bent on changing our traditions.  Just because it doesn't tell us dates in the bible. Just because the Bible doesn't tell us to celebrate Easter or Christmas. This doesn't make it a sin to celebrate our Savior. Once you accept Jesus as the Messiah you are a Christian.  Not A Jew. You can try to keep Gods laws. You can love Jesus as Lord. You can even be baptized. You can celebrate the feast instead of Christmas and Easter.  But you is a Christian now! I still haven't figured out why Gon stick us with the Jews on this page. Unless there are not any Jews on this forum? In which case they can be stuck on any of the forum pages. They just a need a home I guess???



You do realize that from the outset all christians were originailly Jews?   lol   In Act 21 - some 30-40 years after Jesus ascended - we read that there were THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF BELIEVING JEWS just in Jerusalem, and they loved the law, just as Paul and James and the countless elders did.     Jews are not Israel, they are a TRIBE of the nation of Israel.    When one becomes a christian, they are GRAFTED IN to Isreal, as Paul states several places.    (Ephesians 2:11  Romans 11   etc)

Paul - your people - loved the Law    lol    He says so himself, and shows everyone that he does.   

I celebrate the resurrection of Jesus like God told me to....in the Feast of First Fruits.   We have Easter and Christmas today because the faith we have been handed has been stripped of anything that looked "jewish".   You got to admit, Sundays don't look anything like what we read in the bible.     Churches then were lead by a group of elders, today it's preachers.    Sabbath has been trashed.    God's Feast days -  God says they are HIS - have been replaced by santa and eggs, etc.   lol


----------



## Bob2010 (Aug 2, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> You do realize that from the outset all christians were originailly Jews?   lol   In Act 21 - some 30-40 years after Jesus ascended - we read that there were THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF BELIEVING JEWS just in Jerusalem, and they loved the law, just as Paul and James and the countless elders did.     Jews are not Israel, they are a TRIBE of the nation of Israel.    When one becomes a christian, they are GRAFTED IN to Isreal, as Paul states several places.    (Ephesians 2:11  Romans 11   etc)
> 
> Paul - your people - loved the Law    lol    He says so himself, and shows everyone that he does.
> 
> I celebrate the resurrection of Jesus like God told me to....in the Feast of First Fruits.   We have Easter and Christmas today because the faith we have been handed has been stripped of anything that looked "jewish".   You got to admit, Sundays don't look anything like what we read in the bible.     Churches then were lead by a group of elders, today it's preachers.    Sabbath has been trashed.    God's Feast days -  God says they are HIS - have been replaced by santa and eggs, etc.   lol



I believe there is truth to all of this. However Paul got tired of preaching to the Jews. He turned his efforts to the Gentiles. Martin Luther spent a lifetime trying to get the Jews to accept their own Messiah. He ended up so frustrated that he eventually said the Jews should all die. All the good work he had done up until that point was lost. The Jews for the most part denied Jesus as the Lord. Without the Gentiles the church would not of grown like it did.


----------



## Bob2010 (Aug 2, 2021)

None the less. I am still not sure why the Christians got lumped in with the Jews on this forum? Why put the group that denied thier own  Messiah that was announced to them by profits before Christ was born with the group of people that believe Jesus is Lord? You have those that are saved lumped together with the unsaved. Christians are not a sect of the Jewish faith.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 3, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> You do realize that from the outset all christians were originailly Jews?   lol   In Act 21 - some 30-40 years after Jesus ascended - we read that there were THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF BELIEVING JEWS just in Jerusalem, and they loved the law, just as Paul and James and the countless elders did.     Jews are not Israel, they are a TRIBE of the nation of Israel.    When one becomes a christian, they are GRAFTED IN to Isreal, as Paul states several places.    (Ephesians 2:11  Romans 11   etc)
> 
> Paul - your people - loved the Law    lol    He says so himself, and shows everyone that he does.
> 
> I celebrate the resurrection of Jesus like God told me to....in the Feast of First Fruits.   We have Easter and Christmas today because the faith we have been handed has been stripped of anything that looked "jewish".   You got to admit, Sundays don't look anything like what we read in the bible.     Churches then were lead by a group of elders, today it's preachers.    Sabbath has been trashed.    God's Feast days -  God says they are HIS - have been replaced by santa and eggs, etc.   lol



Biblically you’re either a Jew or a Gentile. Christian is a label and is nothing more than a follower of Jesus Christ. The Jews that reject Jesus aren’t Christian. 

If Jesus isn’t the Messiah, how’s that grafting accomplished?

Without a Temple and a high priest how are the Jews keeping the law?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 3, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> Biblically you’re either a Jew or a Gentile. Christian is a label and is nothing more than a follower of Jesus Christ. The Jews that reject Jesus aren’t Christian.
> 
> If Jesus isn’t the Messiah, how’s that grafting accomplished?
> 
> Without a Temple and a high priest how are the Jews keeping the law?



The Jews (and many people that I know) keep what they can, just like they did when they were taken to Babylon in 586BC.   If you read the book of Daniel, it records that the exiled Jews, although having no temple or high priest, kept what they could of the law.  (ie food laws)

You're right in that there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ, as stated in Galatians.   In Revelation, written well after the temple was destroyed, we see Jesus declaring rewards for those who keep the law.    Rev 22:14,15


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 3, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> I believe there is truth to all of this. However Paul got tired of preaching to the Jews. He turned his efforts to the Gentiles. Martin Luther spent a lifetime trying to get the Jews to accept their own Messiah. He ended up so frustrated that he eventually said the Jews should all die. All the good work he had done up until that point was lost. The Jews for the most part denied Jesus as the Lord. Without the Gentiles the church would not of grown like it did.



Again, nowhere does it says that Paul "got tired" of dealing with Jews.   He said that his ministry was to the Gentiles, while Peter's was to the Jews.  Matter of fact, Paul preached to Jews and Gentiles on sabbath for many years, as recorded in Acts.   He spent over a year meeting with Jews and Gentiles on the sabbath.   I don't blame Jews for denying the Jesus they've been preached about.   The Jesus they've heard about "did away with the Law" (even though He plainly said that He didn't and that the Law would be until heaven and earth passed away) and that is something that a Jew that knows his bible can't accept.   In Deut 13, everyone is warned not to follow someone that doesn't preach Moses' commands.    Matter of fact, the last command Jesus gave before dying on the cross was for "the crowd" (not just Jews) listening to Him to follow Moses' teachings.   Matt 23:2

Yep, Martin Luther was very anti-Semitic.   He hated Jews, sabbath, feasts, etc.   Not someone I give much credit to.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 3, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> The Jews (and many people that I know) keep what they can, just like they did when they were taken to Babylon in 586BC.   If you read the book of Daniel, it records that the exiled Jews, although having no temple or high priest, kept what they could of the law.  (ie food laws)
> 
> You're right in that there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ, as stated in Galatians.   In Revelation, written well after the temple was destroyed, we see Jesus declaring rewards for those who keep the law.    Rev 22:14,15


And, if he fulfills the law, then the only way to keep the law is through Him.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 3, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> And, if he fulfills the law, then the only way to keep the law is through Him.



matt 5:17 jesus fulfills Law
matt 5:18  Law is forever  lol
matt 5:19   You will be great in heaven if you keep the law 
rev 22:14,15   You will be blessed in heaven if you keep the commandments.

stop listening to antisemetic preaching!   lol       Test what we've been taught.   We may not have been born into perfect truth


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 3, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> matt 5:17 jesus fulfills Law
> matt 5:18  Law is forever  lol
> matt 5:19   You will be great in heaven if you keep the law
> rev 22:14,15   You will be blessed in heaven if you keep the commandments.
> ...


A good example of Jesus fulfilling abs not abolishing the law: 

Fulfill - The law against adultery could be interpreted as only about cheating on one’s spouse, but not about pornography. When Jesus declared that lust also was a violation of the commandment, he was clarifying the true intent of that law, so he was “fulfilling the Law”.

Abolish - The law against stealing could be interpreted as stealing material things. Condemning stealing a mans’ horse while condoning cheating on your taxes would be “abolishing the Law”


----------



## hummerpoo (Aug 3, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> A good example of Jesus fulfilling abs not abolishing the law:



Simple: just read on.  He follows with 6 examples.



 Antinomianism


----------



## Bob2010 (Aug 3, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Again, nowhere does it says that Paul "got tired" of dealing with Jews.   He said that his ministry was to the Gentiles, while Peter's was to the Jews.  Matter of fact, Paul preached to Jews and Gentiles on sabbath for many years, as recorded in Acts.   He spent over a year meeting with Jews and Gentiles on the sabbath.   I don't blame Jews for denying the Jesus they've been preached about.   The Jesus they've heard about "did away with the Law" (even though He plainly said that He didn't and that the Law would be until heaven and earth passed away) and that is something that a Jew that knows his bible can't accept.   In Deut 13, everyone is warned not to follow someone that doesn't preach Moses' commands.    Matter of fact, the last command Jesus gave before dying on the cross was for "the crowd" (not just Jews) listening to Him to follow Moses' teachings.   Matt 23:2
> 
> Yep, Martin Luther was very anti-Semitic.   He hated Jews, sabbath, feasts, etc.   Not someone I give much credit to.



Paul clearly got frustrated with trying to tell his own Jewish people about Jesus.  The Jewish people ignored prophecy of the coming Messiah.  They had Jesus killed and Pilot put "king of the jews" on his cross. Christ rose from the grave to prove He is Lord. The Jews still didn't believe. Jesus never abolished the law and He preached constantly about not just the importance of God's law but also our motives behind trying to keep God's law. Jesus and the Father never contricted one another. Jesus and his Father are one. Martin Luther said some terrible things. However if you study up on him you will find that he spent a majority of his life determined to help Jewish people accept thier own Messiah.  Eventually like Paul he gave up. Only Martin Luther spoke his mind about it and said some terrible things. Keeping the Law, celebrating feast, sacrificing animals, nor good works will save any of us. Faith alone in Christ Jesus is what saves us. Unfortunately we got lumped together on the forum page. Only the Christ followers will go to Heaven.  That is unless Jesus reveals himself to the Jew right before death and the Jew accepts Christ for who he really is at the last second and repents. It's a harsh reality but if we share a forum page we might as well not deny our Lord and Savior. I would be the same as the Jewish people if I remained silent.  Do you believe Jesus died for nothing? Will celebrating the feast make you righteous? Or does righteousness require Jesus? I know Jesus is the only way to salvation for any of us.


----------



## Bob2010 (Aug 4, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> The Jews (and many people that I know) keep what they can, just like they did when they were taken to Babylon in 586BC.   If you read the book of Daniel, it records that the exiled Jews, although having no temple or high priest, kept what they could of the law.  (ie food laws)
> 
> You're right in that there is neither Jew nor Greek in Christ, as stated in Galatians.   In Revelation, written well after the temple was destroyed, we see Jesus declaring rewards for those who keep the law.    Rev 22:14,15



There is rewards in Heaven. But not based on our works. The rewards are based on our fruit. If a person believes in who Christ is and loves Jesus they will produce good fruit. Simply keeping the law or doing good with motives that are not good. Your reward for that is right here on earth. Your arrogance and praises from others is all the reward that you will receive. This is called pride. Those that produce good fruit will be rewarded. The law has never saved anyone! Infact they read a person thier rights when they are arrested. "Anything you do or say will be used against you". The law was meant to be used against us. Neccessary! But it won't save us.


----------



## Bob2010 (Aug 4, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> Biblically you’re either a Jew or a Gentile. Christian is a label and is nothing more than a follower of Jesus Christ. The Jews that reject Jesus aren’t Christian.
> 
> If Jesus isn’t the Messiah, how’s that grafting accomplished?
> 
> Without a Temple and a high priest how are the Jews keeping the law?



They can't keep God's law! Only Jesus could because He is Lord. The real question is how can  a Jewish person pray to God without a Rabbi? They can't go to God. How does a feast forgive them for thier sins? They should still sacrifice thier pets to get right with God. They have no path to righteousness, forgiveness, or salvation without the Messiah.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 7, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> They can't keep God's law! Only Jesus could because He is Lord. The real question is how can  a Jewish person pray to God without a Rabbi? They can't go to God. How does a feast forgive them for thier sins? They should still sacrifice thier pets to get right with God. They have no path to righteousness, forgiveness, or salvation without the Messiah.



???   Where does it say anywhere that God only asked us to keep His Law if we could do it perfectly?   Nowhere.   When He gave His Law, there were blessings for keeping it, AND curses for failing to keep it.    These blessings and curses were forever, as God stated.    In Christ, though, He took the curses on Himself so that we could be free to obey AS BEST WE CAN without worrying about the failures.   Grace is for our failures, not as a license to not sin.    Over and over Paul admonishes us to no sin...  (sin is transgression of the Law, per John in I John)  

Also, nowhere does it say that Jews only prayed if a rabbi was present.    lol    where did you get that from?   We see lots of prayers in the OT without a rabbi present.   

Feasts didn't forgive sins, shed blood forgave sin.   That's what the sacrifices of Yom Kippur did...it was for the SINS OF ISRAEL.    In Christ, this sacrifice was transferred to Him instead of on goats.     You are right, though, that aside from Christ there is no sacrifice for willful sin anymore, as there is no temple or earthly priesthood.  (Hebrews 10:26) 

Also, I can think of several people in the bible who were 'righteous' before Jesus came...  (ie    John the Baptist's parents)


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 7, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> There is rewards in Heaven. But not based on our works. The rewards are based on our fruit. If a person believes in who Christ is and loves Jesus they will produce good fruit. Simply keeping the law or doing good with motives that are not good. Your reward for that is right here on earth. Your arrogance and praises from others is all the reward that you will receive. This is called pride. Those that produce good fruit will be rewarded. The law has never saved anyone! Infact they read a person thier rights when they are arrested. "Anything you do or say will be used against you". The law was meant to be used against us. Neccessary! But it won't save us.



LOL   I'm astounded at how many times I have to say, over and over, that I don't keep the Law FOR SALVATION, and people just can't grasp that!   I DO NOT OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS FOR SALVATION!!!!   Only faith in Christ's atoning death can save someone!   I obey ONLY because I love Him and that is how He has asked me to show Him love.  (I John  5:3)   

Jesus is the one who says that, because I keep the commandments, I'LL BE GREAT IN HEAVEN.   That settles it for me.     

"The Law was meant to be used against us"   lmbo     Where do you come up with stuff like that!?   Jesus told us in Matthew 5:15-17 that the Law was forever and that we would be great in heaven if we kept it AND taught others to keep it (which is what i'm doing )    Why would Jesus tell us to keep the commandments if they were "against us"?    lol


----------



## hummerpoo (Aug 7, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> LOL   I'm astounded at how many times I have to say, over and over, that I don't keep the Law FOR SALVATION, and people just can't grasp that!   I DO NOT OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS FOR SALVATION!!!!   Only faith in Christ's atoning death can save someone!   I obey ONLY because I love Him and that is how He has asked me to show Him love.  (I John  5:3)
> 
> Jesus is the one who says that, because I keep the commandments, I'LL BE GREAT IN HEAVEN.   That settles it for me.
> 
> "The Law was meant to be used against us"   lmbo     Where do you come up with stuff like that!?   Jesus told us in Matthew 5:15-17 that the Law was forever and that we would be great in heaven if we kept it AND taught others to keep it (which is what i'm doing )    Why would Jesus tell us to keep the commandments if they were "against us"?    lol



 That Strawman is so old and worn out that it looks like a haystack with a hat on.  I once ask "Who believes that salvation is by law keeping".  Because I would not claim that the law was not longer valid, the answer came back "You do".


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 7, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> That Strawman is so old and worn out that it looks like a haystack with a hat on.  I once ask "Who believes that salvation is by law keeping".  Because I would not claim that the law was not longer valid, the answer came back "You do".



lmbo   I'd have to see that.    can you tell me where I answered that way?   Hard to believe that I answered a question like "does one have to keep the law to be saved?" with "yes" when I have never felt that way.

Please show me....


----------



## hummerpoo (Aug 7, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> lmbo   I'd have to see that.    can you tell me where I answered that way?   Hard to believe that I answered a question like "does one have to keep the law to be saved?" with "yes" when I have never felt that way.
> 
> Please show me....


Read it again, but this time imagine that I am agreeing with you.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 7, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> Read it again, but this time imagine that I am agreeing with you.



That's what I thought.....it can't be reproduced.   lol    Am I misreading something?  or misunderstanding your post?


----------



## hummerpoo (Aug 7, 2021)

The strawman you identify is "law keeping for salvation".
The strawman in my statement is "law keeping for salvation.

The idea that most of the OT Israelites believed salvation by law was accepted interpretation from way back.  However, that idea has recently, within the last 50 yrs. I think, come into question.  Under the descriptor "The New Perspective on Paul" it is being argued that the common preincarnation belief was that salvation is by grace, and perseverance is by law keeping.  If that was the perspective from which Paul expressed his concerns about His fellow Jews it changes a great deal of interpretation.  Some of which  is good IMO, some not so good; mostly depending the presuppositions of the interpreter.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 7, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> The strawman you identify is "law keeping for salvation".
> The strawman in my statement is "law keeping for salvation.
> 
> The idea that most of the OT Israelites believed salvation by law was accepted interpretation from way back.  However, that idea has recently, within the last 50 yrs. I think, come into question.  Under the descriptor "The New Perspective on Paul" it is being argued that the common preincarnation belief was that salvation is by grace, and perseverance is by law keeping.  If that was the perspective from which Paul expressed his concerns about His fellow Jews it changes a great deal of interpretation.  Some of which  is good IMO, some not so good; mostly depending the presuppositions of the interpreter.



I can agree with that, and I apologize for misreading what you posted.    As we know, God delivered (saved) Isreal FIRST, then gave them the secret to a prosperous life (the Torah)   He does the same with us; saves us FIRST through faith, then tells us what brings blessing in our lives: obedience.   

Again, I'm sorry for misunderstanding what you wrote.


----------



## hummerpoo (Aug 7, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I can agree with that, and I apologize for misreading what you posted.    As we know, God delivered (saved) Isreal FIRST, then gave them the secret to a prosperous life (the Torah)   He does the same with us; saves us FIRST through faith, then tells us what brings blessing in our lives: obedience.
> 
> Again, I'm sorry for misunderstanding what you wrote.


Now look at that; we talked right past our agreement (that the law was not and is not salvific) into possible disagreement.  Where you say

"As we know, God delivered (saved) Isreal FIRST, then gave them the secret to a prosperous life (the Torah)" 

I would say, using your format,

"God delivers (saves) His People first, then reveals to them how their life will be in Him (the Torah)".

But the degree of difference between the two is entirely dependent upon your intended meaning in "prosperous life".


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 7, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> But the degree of difference between the two is entirely dependent upon your intended meaning in "prosperous life".



I'd lean more toward Law-keeping as how we "walk upright" before our Father, as Paul demonstrated many years after Jesus' ascension in Acts 21:24

"...and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law."   (Let me add that those same lies that were being spread about Paul, are still being spread about him today lol)


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 7, 2021)

How does this Law keeping thing line up with our past discussions of the grace of Easy Believism vs Lordship Salvation? The Lordship Salvation answers the same way, more or less. If one is saved by grace then he produces the fruits of Lordship Salvation. Perhaps not "for" salvation but as a "fruit" of that salvation.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 7, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> There is rewards in Heaven. But not based on our works. The rewards are based on our fruit. If a person believes in who Christ is and loves Jesus they will produce good fruit. Simply keeping the law or doing good with motives that are not good. Your reward for that is right here on earth. Your arrogance and praises from others is all the reward that you will receive. This is called pride. Those that produce good fruit will be rewarded. The law has never saved anyone! Infact they read a person thier rights when they are arrested. "Anything you do or say will be used against you". The law was meant to be used against us. Neccessary! But it won't save us.


How is your fruit example different than this?
matt 5:17 jesus fulfills Law
matt 5:18  Law is forever  lol
matt 5:19   You will be great in heaven if you keep the law
rev 22:14,15   You will be blessed in heaven if you keep the commandments.

Isn't obeying God's commands after salvation the same as "fruit?" Fruit, works, law keeping, keeping God's commands is all the same thing isn't it?

The only problem I see performing fruits or keeping God's commandments would be doing it for the rewards. Yet wouldn't seeking one's on salvation be for the reward of eternal life. Just to ask for salvation is sorta self centered. I mean unless you are doing it for God and not to save your own soul.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 7, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> How does this Law keeping thing line up with our past discussions of the grace of Easy Believism vs Lordship Salvation? The Lordship Salvation answers the same way, more or less. If one is saved by grace then he produces the fruits of Lordship Salvation. Perhaps not "for" salvation but as a "fruit" of that salvation.



Yes....obedience is the FRUIT of my salvation, not the ROOT of our salvation


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 7, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Yes....obedience is the FRUIT of my salvation, not the ROOT of our salvation


How do you balance and perform that fruit in the form of obedience without seeming like pride or that you are doing it for the rewards?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 7, 2021)

Since obedience to God's commands, fruits, works, lordship, etc. are a result of salvation and not the cause, why is it so important how we manifest that obedience to God's commands through our fruit in the same way as the next Christian?
Meaning from each other, why can't I show my manifestation differently than someone else?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 7, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> I still find it really hard to relate to masonic Jews. They seem bent on changing our traditions.  Just because it doesn't tell us dates in the bible. Just because the Bible doesn't tell us to celebrate Easter or Christmas. This doesn't make it a sin to celebrate our Savior. Once you accept Jesus as the Messiah you are a Christian.  Not A Jew. You can try to keep Gods laws. You can love Jesus as Lord. You can even be baptized. You can celebrate the feast instead of Christmas and Easter.  But you is a Christian now! I still haven't figured out why Gon stick us with the Jews on this page. Unless there are not any Jews on this forum? In which case they can be stuck on any of the forum pages. They just a need a home I guess???


Even though there is no longer Jew nor Gentile as far as salvation goes, we still have Jews and Gentiles. That same passage says there is no longer male and female either. Yet we know there is. Paul shows many verses that states there is a difference. It doesn't pertain to salvation but Paul has different rules & roles for men and women.

Plus Judaism is such a core and interwoven part of Christianity, it would be impossible to remove it, even if one wanted to. Do a quick read of Romans 11 and tell me how Physical, natural Israel is not a part of Christianity. We are grafted in. It's not like they are trying to "change" our religion and make it Jewish, it already is.
Gentiles did not suddenly become the chosen and the Jews cast to the side. Romans 11 does the best explanation of it all better than I can.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 7, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Since obedience to God's commands, fruits, works, lordship, etc. are a result of salvation and not the cause, why is it so important how we manifest that obedience to God's commands through our fruit in the same way as the next Christian?
> Meaning from each other, why can't I show my manifestation differently than someone else?



It is the only way He has asked us to show Him love.   John 14:21  I John 5:3  

I think many Christians struggle with believing that a believer could possibly obey Him out of love only.   It's evident in this forum.    If someone is keeping the commandments, surely they are doing it as a way to earn salvation!   lol    There also seems to be a belief that God doesn't want us to even try to obey if we can't do it perfectly.   lol     It may be an excuse, though, for those who don't want anything to do with God's Law    Proverbs 28:9

Many are okay with religion, as long as it doesn't interfere with their life.   ;-)


----------



## M80 (Aug 7, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> To be clear about the devil. He hates everyone.  From experience I can tell you that he is different once you accept Christ as your savior.  His game is providing just enough worldly gain to keep us comfortable in his grasp. He becomes vicious when ones heart turns to Christ. God's laws never have been abolished and they never will be on this earth. Keeping the law is a good thing. Just won't save you.


So you have said your elected yet you also say here “once you accept Christ as your savior”. That looks like a decision and not a force of God to make you chosen. Which it reality is free will that you accepted him. Which if you didn’t “accept him” you would still be lost.
  Election just breaks my heart that folks actually believe that.
  From years past I’ve been round and round with folks in here about election and they still believe in election and I still believe in free will and that “whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”. My list goes on and on.
  What actually hurt me the worst was I asked someone on this forum “if God chose to save one of your sons and the other was chosen for he!! Hiw would that make you feel”. He replied “we serve a just God and if that’s what he chose to do I would be alright with that”
????


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 8, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> It is the only way He has asked us to show Him love.   John 14:21  I John 5:3
> 
> I think many Christians struggle with believing that a believer could possibly obey Him out of love only.   It's evident in this forum.    If someone is keeping the commandments, surely they are doing it as a way to earn salvation!   lol    There also seems to be a belief that God doesn't want us to even try to obey if we can't do it perfectly.   lol     It may be an excuse, though, for those who don't want anything to do with God's Law    Proverbs 28:9
> 
> Many are okay with religion, as long as it doesn't interfere with their life.   ;-)


I do think the idea of what it means to obey God has changed over the years among Christians even in my life time. I asked on this forum years ago what it meant and most said it means believe, confess, and repent. To believe in the Good News.

Back when I was a kid it was to try and not sin. To follow the 10 commandments. To help the sick and feed the poor. To witness and spread the Gospel. Keep the Sabbath Holy and not go to restaurants, etc. Don't hunt and fish on the Sabbath. Forgive your brother, Don't commit adultery. Oh and we couldn't use God's name in vain and call our brother a fool.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 8, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> It is the only way He has asked us to show Him love.   John 14:21  I John 5:3
> 
> I think many Christians struggle with believing that a believer could possibly obey Him out of love only.   It's evident in this forum.    If someone is keeping the commandments, surely they are doing it as a way to earn salvation!   lol    There also seems to be a belief that God doesn't want us to even try to obey if we can't do it perfectly.   lol     It may be an excuse, though, for those who don't want anything to do with God's Law    Proverbs 28:9
> 
> Many are okay with religion, as long as it doesn't interfere with their life.   ;-)


Something I also remember from past discussions was salvation was 100% from grace except when it comes to homosexuals. Then the discussion quickly changed to how important works was for salvation. I mean the struggling alcoholic didn't have to change but the poor soul of the homosexual was in jeopardy if he didn't.
I could just keep on keepin' on in my sins, whatever they are, and ways, whatever they are, because my salvation by grace gave me that liberty. But not the homosexual.
Just like freedom, we don't like to share our liberty in Christ. Christians don't even like to share that. To many you can only gain that liberty if you manifest it in fruits the same way they do.
I think even though people like to spout grace, when you really get down to talking to them, you'll see that works is way more important than what they lead you to believe.

We do love to share salvation through Christ, that's not the problem. Sharing the liberty of that salvation is the problem.


----------



## gemcgrew (Aug 8, 2021)

mwilliams80 said:


> So you have said your elected yet you also say here “once you accept Christ as your savior”. That looks like a decision and not a force of God to make you chosen. Which it reality is free will that you accepted him. Which if you didn’t “accept him” you would still be lost.


Every one of the elect accept Christ as Savior. There is no other Place for them to go.

Free will is highly esteemed among men as an attribute of man. Some will worshippers even put it in the name of their local church.


mwilliams80 said:


> Election just breaks my heart that folks actually believe that.


And some folks actually believe what Scripture says about election. They will not place their feelings for you... above their reverence for God.


mwilliams80 said:


> From years past I’ve been round and round with folks in here about election and they still believe in election and I still believe in free will and that “whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”. My list goes on and on.


Those that believe election know why and how “whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”.


mwilliams80 said:


> What actually hurt me the worst was I asked someone on this forum “if God chose to save one of your sons and the other was chosen for he!! Hiw would that make you feel”. He replied “we serve a just God and if that’s what he chose to do I would be alright with that”
> ????


Of course the believer would be alright with that. To not be would indicate that they would do it differently.


----------



## Bob2010 (Aug 8, 2021)

We are tumbling down conversations that will and has split churches in the past. I like that I can have these conversations here and not at my church.  My post is simple.  Faith alone in Christ Jesus is all that will save us. By putting Christianity on the same forum page as Judaism conflict is created imediatly.  Martin Luther spent a lifetime trying to get the Jewish people to accept salvation through thier own Messiah Jesus Christ. He was not successful and he went crazy later in his life. The prophecy made it clear that Jesus is the Messiah.  This fact is confirmed by the statement " The Jewish people have no temple or path to salvation today". They no longer sacrifice animals and shed blood to be forgiven or made righteous. Jews today have a sin problem and simply refuse to accept the Lord's spectacular gift of salvation through Christ Jesus. The bible says the Jewish people are God's chosen children.  The Messiah was God's gift to His children. The Jewish people certainly were not the elect.  They would have accepted thier own Messiah if they were the elect. No one on this forum has kept God's law perfectly. None of you are without sin! Only Jesus could keep God's law perfectly.  Jesus is the only man that could keep God's law perfectly.  Jesus preached several times about God's law. If Jesus came to abolish the law he would not have kept it perfectly. Jesus teaches us that God's law is important. Our intentions behind keeping the law are just as important as keeping the law. If you keep God's law in hope's of salvation or simply to look good in front of others. This means nothing to the Lord. Your reward for that is not in Heaven.  Your reward for arrogance is right here on earth. Your reward is feeling better than others etc. The New testament does not take away from God's law. God's law exist for the same reason that sin exist. Without sin who would need Jesus? My statement of the law is meant to be used against us is true. Does God not have authority over Satan? By design we can't keep God's law perfectly.  Therefore we need to evaluate our motives and seek forgiveness through our Savior Christ Jesus.  When we are read our rights it says. " anything you say or do can be used against you". Not for you! That doesn't mean God's law is bad. Just means our motives in keeping the law are just as important as actually  keeping the law. So what will save you Jewish people? Why did the Jewish people sacrifice animals? Did you kill your beloved family cat the last time you sinned? Would you arrogantly storm into the tabernacle? Into the most Holy place? In the presence of the Lord? With your head held high? No shame in your game? What vessel does a Jewish person have to go directly to the Lord without Jesus.  What will you do with that filthy sin? So we Christians must assume that the Jew must believe the feast will save them. Jews are good for the year after the feast! Shall we Christians unite in this forum with Jewish people? Did our Jesus die for nothing? What does faith alone in Christ Jesus mean to you? 

1. What's more arrogant?
Keeping the law in order to look good.
Keeping the Law in order to be saved.
Believing that you are one of God's elect. 

Shall we stay quiet about this spectacular gift of salvation through Christ Jesus because we are lumped together on this forum page? Is it not possible that our Lord is so BIG that free will and election both exist together as biblical truth. We just can't wrap our tiny minds around it? Jesus alone is our salvation!


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 8, 2021)

Bandersnatch never said he kept the Law in order to be saved nor did he do it to look good.

He does it the same reason most of us show fruit or works. It's a way to show obedience and love to to God.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 8, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Bandersnatch never said he kept the Law in order to be saved nor did he do it to look good.
> 
> He does it the same reason most of us show fruit or works. It's a way to show obedience and love to to God.



Thank you, Art.   absolutely true.   I had lived the grace life my entire christian life but when I learned how God asked me to show love and appreciation, it was a done deal for me.    I'm already saved, no different than any of you, as long as I hold to faith in Him and His atoning work.   Obedience won't make me more saved, either.   lol 

The walk I walk is not for everyone, and few will walk this way.    A "remnant" of God's family, if you will.     Rev 12:17   "the REMNANT of the seed of the woman, who believe in Jesus and keep God's commandments".


----------



## Bob2010 (Aug 9, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Thank you, Art.   absolutely true.   I had lived the grace life my entire christian life but when I learned how God asked me to show love and appreciation, it was a done deal for me.    I'm already saved, no different than any of you, as long as I hold to faith in Him and His atoning work.   Obedience won't make me more saved, either.   lol
> 
> The walk I walk is not for everyone, and few will walk this way.    A "remnant" of God's family, if you will.     Rev 12:17   "the REMNANT of the seed of the woman, who believe in Jesus and keep God's commandments".



I certainly don't want to put words in anyone's mouth. I was responding to everyone as a whole in my remarks. Good works being a result of fruit to me is the same as keeping the law as a result of pure intentions. Why we do what we do is important to the Lord. Jesus changed that for us. Before Christ ones intentions behind keeping the law didn't matter. I assume that is the same today in the Jewish faith. I still just wonder if the forum lumped us together so that followers of Christ can minister to the few Jewish people that are on the forum? Or was the intent to create conflict and hard conversations? Are Christians still considered another sect of Judaism? Did a atheist lump us together? Was there intentions behind this or did someone simply not care enough to separate us? Can you imagine if they lumped us in with the Atheist page? That would not fly. One group denied thier own Savior.  The other group would die for the Lord Jesus.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 9, 2021)

Bob2010 said:


> I certainly don't want to put words in anyone's mouth. I was responding to everyone as a whole in my remarks. Good works being a result of fruit to me is the same as keeping the law as a result of pure intentions. Why we do what we do is important to the Lord. Jesus changed that for us. Before Christ ones intentions behind keeping the law didn't matter. I assume that is the same today in the Jewish faith. I still just wonder if the forum lumped us together so that followers of Christ can minister to the few Jewish people that are on the forum? Or was the intent to create conflict and hard conversations? Are Christians still considered another sect of Judaism? Did a atheist lump us together? Was there intentions behind this or did someone simply not care enough to separate us? Can you imagine if they lumped us in with the Atheist page? That would not fly. One group denied thier own Savior.  The other group would die for the Lord Jesus.



I do like that there are "off limits" areas within the Spiritual Forum, otherwise, it would be an absolute mess.    IMO, if you don't have thick skin, stay out of the AAA or Spiritual Discuss areas    lol

BTW, Christianity was all Jewish in the beginning so, in a way, it is a Jewish sect.      To the Jew first, and also to the Greek....


----------



## Nicodemus (Aug 9, 2021)

Israel said:


> I ain't been around since its inception but from what I understand the AAA forum was formed by a request submitted after the "spiritual" forum was already here.
> 
> A place where they too might discuss...




The Athiest Subforum was made and put here in 2009.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 9, 2021)

Nicodemus said:


> The Athiest Subforum was made and put here in 2009.


Before that wasn't there just one religious forum? I think it's divided up enough already. 
If one didn't want to submit a topic on the Christianity & Judaism sub-forum, then they could submit it on the Spiritual Discussions & Study forum.

I do remember in the past having more Jewish and Messianic Jews that posted.


----------



## Bob2010 (Nov 17, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> How is your fruit example different than this?
> matt 5:17 jesus fulfills Law
> matt 5:18  Law is forever  lol
> matt 5:19   You will be great in heaven if you keep the law
> ...



My point was just that our salvation is through grace. The problem with the rewards thing is that if we only do the right thing for the later reward. Then we did the right thing for the wrong reason.  Our reward is then recieved here on earth right at that moment.  The reward is the arrogance or whatever feel good feeling we got for doing the right thing. Rewards in Heaven come from our good fruit. When we do the right things for the right reason. The scriptures say that Christ didn't come to abolish the law. Christ came to live the law perfectly. Christ was the only one that could do that. Christ came to show us that our motives behind keeping the law matter just as much as us actually keeping the law. Our faith in Christ does certainly save us. But I have reached a place in my life where I believe it's Christ blood and Christ power that saves me. I don't know that me simply making a choice to love Jesus will save me. Is it my choice or Christ blood that will save me? Which is more powerful? I have no doubt that the law is to be used against us. God created Satan and he is allowed to exist by God. So I have no doubt that God can be wrathful or create laws that none of us can keep perfectly.  The officer arresting me will say the things I do and say will be used AGAINST me. Not used to help me. The point of any laws are to condemn those that do do not keep them. God's laws are a wonderful thing. We couldn't collectively come close to creating 10 perfect laws that encompasses everything.  My original point was that keeping the law won't save us any more than my own choice will without Christ blood and His power.


----------

