# Church vs. Outdoors



## jmharris23 (Aug 22, 2007)

This is a spin off of a post " around the campfire" but here is my question.

Based on Christ's statement that the church is HIS creation, how do you think He feels when we substitute our time of fellowship with other believers with time "enjoying nature" 

I hunt occasionally on Sunday evenings when we have no church services and don't feel bad doing it so I'm not just talking about hunting on Sundays. I also don't (necessarily)think you will go to idiotidiotidiotidiot if you hunt on Sunday or don't go to church.

But do you think that " I worship God in my deerstand" should take the place of " I worship God with other believers" ?


----------



## SBG (Aug 22, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> But do you think that " I worship God in my deerstand" should take the place of " I worship God with other believers" ?



No it should not.

I know this going to rub some of my friends on here the wrong way...but, I believe that when a person puts anything of the "world" in front of Church, they do so because they have yielded to the flesh over the Spirit.

Those that use every excuse in the book to contunually miss church, are doing it for the same reason as above.

Believe me, I've been there.


----------



## SnowHunter (Aug 22, 2007)

SBG said:


> yielded to the flesh over the Spirit.



how is "worshipping God while immersed in His Creation" (nature) yeilding to the flesh? 

If Nature is Gods creation, and Church is Gods creation, then who's to say you should be in one place and not the other?


----------



## SBG (Aug 22, 2007)

Her1911 said:


> how is "worshipping God while immersed in His Creation" (nature) yeilding to the flesh?
> 
> If Nature is Gods creation, and Church is Gods creation, then who's to say you should be in one place and not the other?



The Holy Spirit and God's Word.


----------



## SnowHunter (Aug 22, 2007)

SBG said:


> The Holy Spirit and God's Word.


----------



## PWalls (Aug 22, 2007)

Her1911 said:


> how is "worshipping God while immersed in His Creation" (nature) yeilding to the flesh?
> 
> If Nature is Gods creation, and Church is Gods creation, then who's to say you should be in one place and not the other?



Out of curiousity, what is your definition of "worship" when you are in God's creation?


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 22, 2007)

When my dad was a Methodist minister in Alabama once a year we would go to the Chapel by the lake (open air) I believe it was near Wind Creek in Alabama.

As a kid that was my favorite place for church. It had it all, and I felt closer to God there than anyplace else.

That being said, I still feel a very intimate feeling when I fellowship with God in Nature, but it is not the same as the obedience of praise and worship in his Church, as he requires.

Two different things, if you ask me.


----------



## SnowHunter (Aug 22, 2007)

PWalls said:


> Out of curiousity, what is your definition of "worship" when you are in God's creation?



When I'm out in Gods Creation, I talk to him. Through prayer and feeling and listening. Sometime I get answers, others I dont, which to me, means I wasnt meant to have that answer yet and it will come when God knows I'm ready.


----------



## jmharris23 (Aug 22, 2007)

Her1911 said:


>



The Bible says that as Christians we are supposed to meet together for fellowship and spiritual growth. The Holy Spirit guides us to do what the Word of God says. 


Acts 2:42-47 & Hebrews 10:25 are good ones to read if you care to

Again- its anybody's choice to do what they want to do. But if you want to do what the bible says to do. Then you won't replace " a time of fellowship with other believers" by going hunting, watching the race, football, playing golf etc etc and calling it a spiritual experience


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 22, 2007)

Her1911 said:


> When I'm out in Gods Creation, I talk to him. Through prayer and feeling and listening. Sometime I get answers, others I dont, which to me, means I wasnt meant to have that answer yet and it will come when God knows I'm ready.


 
Not to beat up on you Nicole, but that is fellowship, not praise and not worship.

God is very specific in what he ask of us, as a jealous God that wishes obedience from us so that he knows we love him. It is in return for that obedience that he showers us with blessings and tenders us with grace.

Again, not pickin on you, please understand that.


----------



## jmharris23 (Aug 22, 2007)

60Grit said:


> Two different things, if you ask me.



Good post 
And both important but as you said there is obedience in praise and worship WITH other believers

Oh yeah and I'm not picking on you either actually just hoping to help you see the biblical difference


----------



## SnowHunter (Aug 22, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> The Bible says that as Christians we are supposed to meet together for fellowship and spiritual growth. The Holy Spirit guides us to do what the Word of God says.
> 
> 
> Acts 2:42-47 & Hebrews 10:25 are good ones to read if you care to
> ...



I spend plenty of time with other believers and discussing things such as this. Just not in designated building.


----------



## SnowHunter (Aug 22, 2007)

gee and I wondered why I haven't been in this section in a while.


----------



## Wishin I was Fishin (Aug 22, 2007)

this is probably my first visit and my last here... i dont take "constructive criticism" or whatever it is too well... so what, sue me.


----------



## SBG (Aug 22, 2007)

Her1911 said:


> gee and I wondered why I haven't been in this section in a while.



Why? Because the truths of God's Word offends you?

Like I said in an earlier post...I've been there. I've used the old excuse that I am "closer to God on a lake or in a treestand." The fact is, and I know it hurts to hear, but when we substitute things of this world in the place of God, we cannot grow spiritually.


----------



## SnowHunter (Aug 22, 2007)

I agree to disagree, have at it, I'm done here


----------



## jneil (Aug 22, 2007)

SBG said:


> I believe that when a person puts anything of the "world" in front of Church, they do so because they have yielded to the flesh over the Spirit.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I'm of the flesh, being that God created Nature and not the church.


----------



## SBG (Aug 22, 2007)

jneil said:


> SBG said:
> 
> 
> > I believe that when a person puts anything of the "world" in front of Church, they do so because they have yielded to the flesh over the Spirit.
> ...


----------



## pfharris1965 (Aug 22, 2007)

*...*



jmharris23 said:


> This is a spin off of a post " around the campfire" but here is my question.
> 
> Based on Christ's statement that the church is HIS creation, how do you think He feels when we substitute our time of fellowship with other believers with time "enjoying nature"
> 
> ...


 
My question would be does God specifically say that you have to be physically in a church with other believers to be considered as worshipping?  Seems I recall that Jesus would hold church wherever he  happened to be and people would gather to listen to the Message.

Now while Jesus is not physically standing there with us, if I am at hunting camp with other worshippers and the Spirit is there how is it any different than being in church (a building made of just brick and mortar)...is it not God's presence and the way it moves the people that are there that makes ANYWHERE Holy right?

Maybe I got this all wrong but I am just basing it off of what my Daddy taught me for years when I was a child.


----------



## FishFanatic (Aug 22, 2007)

Her....I'm not sure if you will check back to see this, but I understand where you are coming from.  I too used to feel this way before I began to believe in Christ, and I struggled with it in my early years as a follower of Christ.  I don't remember who explained it to me, but like JMharris stated above...God does call us to spend time with other believers, and I know you stated that you do spend time with other believers, but not in a designated building. I'm not a people person...I'm not outgoing.  But my church kind of plugs me in, or puts me in situations where I can contribute or help reach people.   So I jump on board, because I know that is what I need.  Sure they meet in a building every Sunday, but that only makes it convenient for me to spend a few hours with my fellow Christians with families and other priorities that would keep me from spending much time with them outside of church.     But like you said, I fully understand where you are coming from and the feeling I get when I spend time with God in nature. And no I don't think spending time in nature is yielding to the flesh.  The problem would come in when I am taking the one day(or few hours) that I need to be plugged in with other Christians and replace it with fishing or whatever else.  God doesn't say one is better than the other, the are both important.  I just had to come to terms with the fact that He wants me to do both...spend time with Him alone, and spend time with other Christians, for a number of reasons, for my well being and theirs.  He only wants the best for us in all things, and I have not found a command or highly regarded piece of advice from the Bible that was not best for me when I gave it a shot.


----------



## FishFanatic (Aug 22, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> My question would be does God specifically say that you have to be physically in a church with other believers to be considered as worshipping?  Seems I recall that Jesus would hold church wherever he  happened to be and people would gather to listen to the Message.
> 
> Now while Jesus is not physically standing there with us, if I am at hunting camp with other worshippers and the Spirit is there how is it any different than being in church (a building made of just brick and mortar)...is it not God's presence and the way it moves the people that are there that makes ANYWHERE Holy right?
> 
> Maybe I got this all wrong but I am just basing it off of what my Daddy taught me for years when I was a child.



I don't think that church is the only place for worship.  As a matter of fact, for me personally, I worship God much better outside of the church when I'm alone.  I have been in quite a few churches and never have I felt like I could worship God as well as I do when I'm alone on the river or elsewhere.  Thats when I feel like I'm worshipping....because I pour it out on Him.  My wife on the other hand....she gets into it in church and worships away.  And God has not convicted me for that at all.  So ultimately that is how I know its not the only place for worship.  Church for me, helps plug me in more than anything.   Makes it easier for me to help out the great commission.


----------



## FishFanatic (Aug 22, 2007)

Her1911 said:


> When I'm out in Gods Creation, I talk to him. Through prayer and feeling and listening. Sometime I get answers, others I dont, which to me, means I wasnt meant to have that answer yet and it will come when God knows I'm ready.




There have been alot of "religious" comments to your quote.   Those prayers you talk about.....if you at any point were to thank God for something he gave you, or praise Him for being there for you....guess what...you are worshipping Him.  And you know that, so don't be swayed by what has been said.  The most important thing I would say......like I stated on the other post, don't sacrifice the only time you get to help the church out, and if you find a good church you wouldn't want to.    The church is Jesus's bride.  He stated that, so make His bride important to you....if it is not.  If it is...disregard.


----------



## Jody Hawk (Aug 22, 2007)

SBG said:


> I know this going to rub some of my friends on here the wrong way...but, I believe that when a person puts anything of the "world" in front of Church, they do so because they have yielded to the flesh over the Spirit.
> 
> Those that use every excuse in the book to contunually miss church, are doing it for the same reason as above.



Good post !!!!!! 

1 John 2:15
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

Something else that I think of often is how we can pack a 90,000 plus seat stadium to watch a college football game on Saturday evenings but we seldom fill up our churches on Sunday mornings. We're about worldly things and few including myself, really put the Lord first in their lives. We all could probably do better.


----------



## choctawlb (Aug 22, 2007)

I believe Christ once said"Where two or more are gathered together in my name , there I will be also." I don't remember him specifing the location though.
I do think some folks need to work on their delivery however. You don't convert  folks or uplift them  by offending them. Christ never was offensive to anyone, and put the Pharisees in their place for doing so. 
None of us have all the answers I assure you, but we must spread our knowledge in the spirit of love. May God bless you all.
Ken


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 22, 2007)

choctawlb said:


> I do think some folks need to work on their delivery however. You don't convert folks or uplift them by offending them.


 
I would tend to side with you on that one.

Eph. 4:29

"Speak only what is helpful for building others up, according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen."

Eph. 4:15

"Speak the truth in a spirit of Love."


----------



## choctawlb (Aug 22, 2007)

Before Christ made his ultimate sacrifice for we sinners, he spent 40 days in the wilderness, to be tempted by the devil. I 'm certain that a lot of that time he was convening with God, hence where his and our strenghth comes from.
Then right before he went to his final trial, he went to the garden alone to pray. 
Ken


----------



## FishFanatic (Aug 22, 2007)

choctawlb said:


> I do think some folks need to work on their delivery however. You don't convert  folks or uplift them  by offending them. Christ never was offensive to anyone, and put the Pharisees in their place for doing so.



I couldn't agree more....thats actually what I was trying to do in my responses, but I think that individual may not check this thread out again because of certain comments.  I think we(me included) tend to jump the gun to quickly on some of these threads, forgetting that we are all typing our thoughts and cannot see or hear each others physical expressions.  I easily understood what she was trying to say, and that may have been because I got in on the thread later than others.


----------



## Vernon Holt (Aug 22, 2007)

I happen to believe that if communing with God in nature was adequate for the needs of man, Christ would never have established his Church.

I also believe that the early Church had an appointed time and an appointed place.  We are taught that we are not to forsake the assembling of ourself together.

I love the fields, forest, and streams as much as anyone, yet i find myself strangely drawn to the place where the Church meets on the Lord's day.  Wouldn't have it any other way.


----------



## REMINGTON710 (Aug 22, 2007)

well I don't think if I hunt on Sunday I'm going to idiotidiotidiotidiot...even if I don't go to church.


everytime I go into the woods to hunt I have a feeling of being with God that I NEVER feel at church. 


I think if I want to hunt on a Sunday and I can I will. I will be with God at church or in a deer stand.


But to each his own


----------



## pfharris1965 (Aug 22, 2007)

*...*

Some people go to Church and think about hunting/fishing and some people go hunting/fishing and think about God...

God bless the USA where I am free to choose...


----------



## hunter_58 (Aug 23, 2007)

choctawlb said:


> I believe Christ once said"Where two or more are gathered together in my name ,




I enjoy coming on here and reading these post!

while i was reading this thread, i was thinking about the above Quote.
This ties directly with the post from her 1911
[ her 1911 quote When I'm out in Gods Creation, I talk to him. Through prayer and feeling and listening. Sometime I get answers, others I dont, which to me, means I wasn't meant to have that answer yet and it will come when God knows I'm ready.]

I come from an old country church, and i believe the church is in your heart.
when her1911 said she is in church and closest to god while she is out doors, I understand exactly what she is saying.
my perfect church doesn't have large white columns on the front.
I think each person finds the church, where ever they need to find it, as long as they find it. 

good luck to all


----------



## SnowHunter (Aug 23, 2007)

hunter_58 said:


> I enjoy coming on here and reading these post!
> 
> while i was reading this thread, i was thinking about the above Quote.
> This ties directly with the post from her 1911
> ...




HEY!! someone gets it!!! Thank you for saying it better then me!!!


(and yes I came back, I had to post thanks to hunter_58)


----------



## Jody Hawk (Aug 23, 2007)

REMINGTON710 said:


> well I don't think if I hunt on Sunday I'm going to idiotidiotidiotidiot...even if I don't go to church.



This ain't about going to he!!. If you're a born again Christian that parts been covered. This is about obedience and putting God above your love for hunting.


----------



## jmharris23 (Aug 23, 2007)

Jody Hawk said:


> This ain't about going to he!!. If you're a born again Christian that parts been covered. This is about obedience and putting God above your love for hunting.




EXACTLY - I think some of us are missing the point here. The original question was do you think Christ would be dissapointed if we refuse to be a part of the church that He created. 

In our Americanized version of Christianity we so miss whole point of what church is. Life is not about YOU. Neither is church. The church does not stand to make you feel good. The church exists as a way for us to worship God, learn about Him, do His work, and to fellowship together. The church is about what we put into it and not get out of it.

Yes if you accept Christ you will go to Heaven even if you never darken the doors of the church. But what a selfish Christianity that is. I believe that Christ died for more than that. I believe that if you have truly experienced His grace then you will want to grow in the Word, spend time with other believers who experienced his grace, and serve others. 

Now if you spend time every week in true worship of God, if you do bible study every day, if you gather with a group of Christians and talk about what God is doing in your life, if you go on your own mission trips, then I guess you don't necessarily need church. 

Most people though will not do this on their own and the church is a vessel by which we are encouraged to follow God


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 23, 2007)

Her1911 said:


> HEY!! someone gets it!!! Thank you for saying it better then me!!!
> 
> 
> (and yes I came back, I had to post thanks to hunter_58)


 
And we're glad you did.


----------



## SBG (Aug 23, 2007)

choctawlb said:


> I believe Christ once said"Where two or more are gathered together in my name , there I will be also." I don't remember him specifing the location though.
> I do think some folks need to work on their delivery however. You don't convert  folks or uplift them  by offending them. Christ never was offensive to anyone, and put the Pharisees in their place for doing so.
> None of us have all the answers I assure you, but we must spread our knowledge in the spirit of love. May God bless you all.
> Ken





Christ wasn't offensive? I must read a different Bible.


----------



## SBG (Aug 23, 2007)

Vernon Holt said:


> I happen to believe that if communing with God in nature was adequate for the needs of man, Christ would never have established his Church.
> 
> I also believe that the early Church had an appointed time and an appointed place.  We are taught that we are not to forsake the assembling of ourself together.
> 
> I love the fields, forest, and streams as much as anyone, yet i find myself strangely drawn to the place where the Church meets on the Lord's day.  Wouldn't have it any other way.




Amen Mr. Vernon.


----------



## Randy (Aug 23, 2007)

Being as I have no "church" at the present, the woods are my church.


----------



## SBG (Aug 23, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> EXACTLY - I think some of us are missing the point here. The original question was do you think Christ would be dissapointed if we refuse to be a part of the church that He created.
> 
> In our Americanized version of Christianity we so miss whole point of what church is. Life is not about YOU. Neither is church. The church does not stand to make you feel good. The church exists as a way for us to worship God, learn about Him, do His work, and to fellowship together. The church is about what we put into it and not get out of it.
> 
> ...





Very well said.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 23, 2007)

Someone asked where is it we are told to go to church. We are told to forsake not the assembling together.

As far as putting anything in the world in front of church, thats seven days a week, not just Sunday.

I dont think anyone is going to perish cause they hunted on Sunday as long as it did not stop them from going to church.

Anyone that stays out of Church to hunt, Im no judge, thats between them and God......................As far as for ME, I wont do it.


----------



## THREEJAYS (Aug 23, 2007)

For me I understand that come sundays I'll be in church.If I said that the woods were the place I worship it wouldn't be the total truth.Sure I can acknowledge God there but deep down I'm there because theres something I want to do other than Church.If all looked at it as OK to go or not go there would be nowhere for any of us to meet when we  do decide to attend.Theres no question in my mind  that we are supposed to assemble together ,break bread and bring our tithes and offerings to God (first day of the week)I hope this isn't offensive but it is what the bible says.A question I try to ask myself regular is what would the church be like if all were like me.It keeps me doing as I should at least most of the time.


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 23, 2007)

Excellent post Vick


----------



## Randy (Aug 23, 2007)

THREEJAYS said:


> A question I try to ask myself regular is what would the church be like if all were like me.



What a wonderful church that would be.


----------



## Branchminnow (Aug 23, 2007)

SBG said:


> No it should not.
> 
> I know this going to rub some of my friends on here the wrong way...but, I believe that when a person puts anything of the "world" in front of Church, they do so because they have yielded to the flesh over the Spirit.
> 
> ...



I hear you brother ....AMEN!


----------



## dutchman (Aug 23, 2007)

Branch, 

The posts in this thread could make up about a month's worth of sermons, huh?

SBG - Good posts

JMHarris - Good posts

Vernon Holt - Good post

Jody Hawk - Good posts

Spotlite - Good post

Threejays - Good post

60Grit - Good posts

"As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." For us, that means we're at the regular meeting of our church in a building made of brick, mortar, and timber with other believers to share in a time of corporate worship (muisc and singing, praise, giving of tithes and offerings, and Bible study and teaching) of the Lord God and His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. I will not pass judgement on anyone else for their habits, but I will invite them to come and worship with us regularly.


----------



## holton27596 (Aug 23, 2007)

In a treestand you are a lot less likely to run into a hypocrite, someone who does not pay child support, alcoholics,.............


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 23, 2007)

Just curious, the Bible is clear about tithing, although even active church goers miss the boat on that one.

How do the non church goers satisfy God's requirement in this area??


----------



## farmasis (Aug 23, 2007)

Her1911 said:


> how is "worshipping God while immersed in His Creation" (nature) yeilding to the flesh?
> 
> If Nature is Gods creation, and Church is Gods creation, then who's to say you should be in one place and not the other?




I think it boils down to intent of the heart. Are we substituting fellowship in church for fellowship in nature, or are we just doing what we want and using that as an excuse. (I am an not judging anyone's intentions)

I also do not think that we have to attend every service to avoid "forsaking the assembly". I am commanded to keeping the Sabbath holy. My Sabbath is Sunday, and I occasionally do hunt Sunday afternoons. Maybe that is wrong.

I think we need to be careful when we have little ones looking up at us that we do not place things like hunting in front of worship. I do not like it when some skip Sunday AM and PM service to go hunting, because it sets a bad example of reverence of the Sabbath, but maybe I am a hypocrit.


----------



## pfharris1965 (Aug 23, 2007)

*...*



60Grit said:


> Just curious, the Bible is clear about tithing, although even active church goers miss the boat on that one.
> 
> How do the non church goers satisfy God's requirement in this area??


 
I know I am gonna get blasted for this one but...oh well... (and before anyone goes crazy on this one...my comments do not apply to ALL pastors and churches...I know there are some truly good ones out there...)

Instead of buying suits for a pastor or stained glass or air-conditioning for a building, my money (which is limited as it is) goes to take care of my family as I am sure God would expect a Christian to do...

I mean come on...if the difference in tithing that 10% meant the difference in keeping your roof over your head or having a pretty, comfortable church and a well dressed pastor every Sunday...what would you really do?  Do you forsake your family obligations to give to a Church?  Not me...


----------



## farmasis (Aug 23, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> I know I am gonna get blasted for this one but...oh well... (and before anyone goes crazy on this one...my comments do not apply to ALL pastors and churches...I know there are some truly good ones out there...)
> 
> Instead of buying suits for a pastor or stained glass or air-conditioning for a building, my money (which is limited as it is) goes to take care of my family as I am sure God would expect a Christian to do...
> 
> I mean come on...if the difference in tithing that 10% meant the difference in keeping your roof over your head or having a pretty, comfortable church and a well dressed pastor every Sunday...what you you really do?  Do you forsake your family obligations to give to a Church?  Not me...



The tithe is about obedience. God doesn't need our money, but we need a chance to be obedient to god. Also, it is a promise from God that he will out give us and provide all of our needs. It doesn't make human sense that giving money away will lead to more money, but it works. (However, keep the intent in the right place and do not give to recieve, rather give to please God.)


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 23, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> I know I am gonna get blasted for this one but...oh well... (and before anyone goes crazy on this one...my comments do not apply to ALL pastors and churches...I know there are some truly good ones out there...)
> 
> Instead of buying suits for a pastor or stained glass or air-conditioning for a building, my money (which is limited as it is) goes to take care of my family as I am sure God would expect a Christian to do...
> 
> I mean come on...if the difference in tithing that 10% meant the difference in keeping your roof over your head or having a pretty, comfortable church and a well dressed pastor every Sunday...what you you really do? Do you forsake your family obligations to give to a Church? Not me...


 
Not gonna blast ya brother, but you know I'm gonna chime back in cause I love ya so much...

6 years ago my wife and I were beyond bankruptcy.

What does that mean?? It means we had assets that could be liquidated by the courts in order to pay our debt should we file, which would have basically left us homeless.

What action did we take. We sold one car and became a one care family and got on our knees and got serious about our relationship with God. We got back into a church and left our theological microscopes at home and simply followed what God asked us to do from a simple stewards point of view.

I could go into the entire story, but the long and the short of it is he has blessed us in unimaginable ways to the point of not only recovering from that impoverished pit to now owning two homes and very good jobs.

You have to give from the heart, not from the head, and God will bless you for it. He will take care of any clergy or others that misuse those funds, and you have to trust him on that one.

But I know where you are coming from, because I have walked that walk.


----------



## pfharris1965 (Aug 23, 2007)

*...*



farmasis said:


> The tithe is about obedience. God doesn't need our money, but we need a chance to be obedient to god. Also, it is a promise from God that he will out give us and provide all of our needs. It doesn't make human sense that giving money away will lead to more money, but it works. (However, keep the intent in the right place and do not give to recieve, rather give to please God.)


 
A good comment and that may be true to an extent but I also think that common sense would mandate that whilst God will provide and I have seen that time and again in my life, we also must meet him in the middle...which in my opinion is to take care of the basics and do one's part as a responsible parent and human being...in other words, God will help those that help themselves...and also I think that taking care of one's family is pretty high on the obedience to God scale...

If one casts everything to the wind and foresakes one's obligations thinking that God will make it all better then that might be a bit off kilter...but I bet that one's prayers would get to be a tad more intense and focused whilst sitting on a curb begging for food...


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 23, 2007)

farmasis said:


> The tithe is about obedience. God doesn't need our money, but we need a chance to be obedient to god. Also, it is a promise from God that he will out give us and provide all of our needs. It doesn't make human sense that giving money away will lead to more money, but it works. (However, keep the intent in the right place and do not give to recieve, rather give to please God.)


 
Let me add to that please.

Our order of priorities have become 
#1 God
#2 Family
#3 Job

When you take care of #1, then #2 and #3 are not an issue anymore, God makes sure of that.


----------



## Randy (Aug 23, 2007)

60Grit said:


> Just curious, the Bible is clear about tithing, although even active church goers miss the boat on that one.
> 
> How do the non church goers satisfy God's requirement in this area??



I spend mine on what I think God's real intentions were/are.  I do not believe God ever intended for churches to be so big and beautiful and Blingy and I don't think he intends for the pastors to be likewise.

An example:  I was pumping gas a few weeks ago when and older black lady pulled up to the pump next to mine.  A pile of kids jumps out and she hands one of them 5 bucks to go pay for gas.  Well I commented to her that 5 bucks was not going to get much gas at 3 bucsk a gallon.  She says that is all she has till pay day Friday.  I belive it was Wednesday then.  So I ask can I buy her a tank of gas.  Well at first she says no thank you.  Then I explained to her that I like to do things for people when I can and that I would love to help her out in hopes that she would pass that goodness on.  Well I filled her tank up and helped out someone in need.  That is what I think God wants us to do with tythes.  Not build bling churches and have pastors with 300.00 suits!  If my church will not spend my tythes properly, I will.


----------



## Randy (Aug 23, 2007)

fishing technician said:


> Where in the New Testament does it say to tithe?




It doesn't that is something the church made up as well as the 10% number!  Yes there is some reference to it in the OT and like a lot of "quotes" from the Bible the church spun it for their advantage.


----------



## crackerdave (Aug 23, 2007)

Good thread - and something that we all have probably struggled with at one time or another.I have been guilty of ditching church to go to the lake,but I knew that trip to the lake wasn't replacing my presence in church and I knew I was doing wrong. Don't make the mistake of worshipping the creation instead of the Creator,or the mistake of thinking you can fool God. He knows us better than we know ourselves,and He still loves us - to me,that is an amazing and wonderful thing.


----------



## SBG (Aug 23, 2007)

farmasis said:


> Maybe that is wrong.



I don't think it is wrong.

Good post.


----------



## dutchman (Aug 23, 2007)

Randy said:


> I spend mine on what I think God's real intentions were/are.  I do not believe God ever intended for churches to be so big and beautiful and Blingy and I don't think he intends for the pastors to be likewise.
> 
> An example:  I was pumping gas a few weeks ago when and older black lady pulled up to the pump next to mine.  A pile of kids jumps out and she hands one of them 5 bucks to go pay for gas.  Well I commented to her that 5 bucks was not going to get much gas at 3 bucsk a gallon.  She says that is all she has till pay day Friday.  I belive it was Wednesday then.  So I ask can I buy her a tank of gas.  Well at first she says no thank you.  Then I explained to her that I like to do things for people when I can and that I would love to help her out in hopes that she would pass that goodness on.  Well I filled her tank up and helped out someone in need.  That is what I think God wants us to do with tythes.  Not build bling churches and have pastors with 300.00 suits!  If my church will not spend my tythes properly, I will.



You did good, Randy.

Malachi 3:8-10 has some sound teaching on the subject of tithing and the giving of offerings. Granted, that is in the Old Testament and as such, you may not choose to regard it. But I regard the entire Bible as being The Word of God and all of it is valuable. I try very hard not to take things out of context and use them to suit my purpose, lest I wind up like the folks who point to the passage where Judas went out and hanged himself and then jumping to the passage that instructs to Go and do likewise.


----------



## SBG (Aug 23, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> I know I am gonna get blasted for this one but...oh well... (and before anyone goes crazy on this one...my comments do not apply to ALL pastors and churches...I know there are some truly good ones out there...)
> 
> Instead of buying suits for a pastor or stained glass or air-conditioning for a building, my money (which is limited as it is) goes to take care of my family as I am sure God would expect a Christian to do...
> 
> I mean come on...if the difference in tithing that 10% meant the difference in keeping your roof over your head or having a pretty, comfortable church and a well dressed pastor every Sunday...what would you really do?  Do you forsake your family obligations to give to a Church?  Not me...



I trust in God to meet my needs, not on myself. I have tithed when there was no way I could see being able to do it, and God has always been faithful. Back when my kids were babies and money was a lot, lot, tighter, we still tithed and God never let us down.

Be faithful to God, and He will be faithful to you. Be unfaithful to God, and he still blesses.

He is a good God.


----------



## farmasis (Aug 23, 2007)

fishing technician said:


> Where in the New Testament does it say to tithe?



Jesus said to render to Ceasar, what is Ceasar's, and to God what is God's.


----------



## Paymaster (Aug 23, 2007)

Vernon Holt said:


> I happen to believe that if communing with God in nature was adequate for the needs of man, Christ would never have established his Church.
> 
> I also believe that the early Church had an appointed time and an appointed place.  We are taught that we are not to forsake the assembling of ourself together.
> 
> I love the fields, forest, and streams as much as anyone, yet i find myself strangely drawn to the place where the Church meets on the Lord's day.  Wouldn't have it any other way.




Amen ,Brother Holt,Amen.


----------



## Paymaster (Aug 23, 2007)

Randy said:


> I spend mine on what I think God's real intentions were/are.  I do not believe God ever intended for churches to be so big and beautiful and Blingy and I don't think he intends for the pastors to be likewise.
> 
> An example:  I was pumping gas a few weeks ago when and older black lady pulled up to the pump next to mine.  A pile of kids jumps out and she hands one of them 5 bucks to go pay for gas.  Well I commented to her that 5 bucks was not going to get much gas at 3 bucsk a gallon.  She says that is all she has till pay day Friday.  I belive it was Wednesday then.  So I ask can I buy her a tank of gas.  Well at first she says no thank you.  Then I explained to her that I like to do things for people when I can and that I would love to help her out in hopes that she would pass that goodness on.  Well I filled her tank up and helped out someone in need.  That is what I think God wants us to do with tythes.  Not build bling churches and have pastors with 300.00 suits!  If my church will not spend my tythes properly, I will.




I know you did not post this for a pat on the back ,But I will give you one anyway. May God Bless you Randy.


----------



## Paymaster (Aug 23, 2007)

To answer the original question, Its all about the point of being where you are. If you are out in the woods for the purpose of worshiping God then He would probably meet you there. If your purpose is to hunt and God is the second consideration, then you may as well have stayed home. If you are in Church to worship God He will meet you there. If God is your second consideration there, then then same goes.


----------



## jmharris23 (Aug 23, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> I know I am gonna get blasted for this one but...oh well... (and before anyone goes crazy on this one...my comments do not apply to ALL pastors and churches...I know there are some truly good ones out there...)
> 
> Instead of buying suits for a pastor or stained glass or air-conditioning for a building, my money (which is limited as it is) goes to take care of my family as I am sure God would expect a Christian to do...
> 
> I mean come on...if the difference in tithing that 10% meant the difference in keeping your roof over your head or having a pretty, comfortable church and a well dressed pastor every Sunday...what would you really do?  Do you forsake your family obligations to give to a Church?  Not me...





Do you REALLY think that all of us who are tithing our 10% are forsaking our family obligations??

Also how many people do you know that if they started tithing would go under financially and ruin their family?

Also just for the record I get kinda sick of the 'ol pastor and his $300 suit bit. Now I admit that I am kinda touchy on the whole subject but if take ALL the pastors in the world there are not that many pastors who are wearing the suits and driving the cars. 

Most of them are just like me- Doing the best we can to help people grow in their relationship with God and making ALOT less money now than other people in the world with similiar educations.


----------



## Jody Hawk (Aug 23, 2007)

dutchman said:


> You did good, Randy.



I agree, just don't announce it.

Matthew 6:3 
But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.


----------



## dutchman (Aug 23, 2007)

Jody Hawk said:


> I agree, just don't announce it.
> 
> Matthew 6:3
> But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.



That is good advice, Jody.


----------



## shotgunpapa (Aug 23, 2007)

our preacher took us fishing one sunday he got into a boat & rowed out into the lake & preached while we fished it was fun, i heard he also stood on top of the church building & preached one time. but we have services on wedsday & 2 times on sunday, & we try to make it to at least one of the meeting to gather streath.


----------



## Randy (Aug 23, 2007)

Jody Hawk said:


> I agree, just don't announce it.
> 
> Matthew 6:3
> But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.



I was not trying to announce it, and in fact I did not do it for a reward nor to tell you guys about it for a pat on the back.  I was trying to give an example of how I tythe as was asked.  There are those that tythe for the reward which by the way is the wrong reason.


----------



## Jody Hawk (Aug 23, 2007)

Randy said:


> There are those that tythe for the reward which by the way is the wrong reason.



Amen to that. You see folks putting their checks in the white envelope and dropping them into the collection plates with the amount written plainly on the envelope. I think everyone should put cash money in a blank envelope and it is between you and God how much is in that envelope. Just my opinion.


----------



## pfharris1965 (Aug 23, 2007)

*...*



jmharris23 said:


> Do you REALLY think that all of us who are tithing our 10% are forsaking our family obligations??
> 
> Also how many people do you know that if they started tithing would go under financially and ruin their family?


 
Show me where I said anyone that tithes is forsaking their family obligations? ...I did not speak for others...I spoke for myself AND if I gave 10% to the church for its air-conditioning bills and other expenses, it could mean the difference in survival.  I never made reference to others...and it is great for you if you tithe and survive...my situation would not support that...my tithe is to the welfare of my family...



jmharris23 said:


> Also just for the record I get kinda sick of the 'ol pastor and his $300 suit bit. Now I admit that I am kinda touchy on the whole subject but if take ALL the pastors in the world there are not that many pastors who are wearing the suits and driving the cars.


 
Read my post...be as sick of it if you want but it still happens...I said not *ALL* very clearly...you can take my post out of context and twist it to serve your agenda all you want or to ease your conscience...whatever the case may be, my opinion stays the same......we just have to agree to disagree...



jmharris23 said:


> Most of them are just like me- Doing the best we can to help people grow in their relationship with God and making ALOT less money now than other people in the world with similiar educations.


 
Good for you...you are one of the good ones...hey knock yourself out...I will pray for you brother as well as for me...my prayers get answered just like yours do...right?

I hope your apparent lack of understanding of my post does not cross over to any of your other endeavors......good luck...


----------



## SBG (Aug 23, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> I spoke for myself AND if I gave 10% to the church for its air-conditioning bills and other expenses, it could mean the difference in survival.



Like I said earlier Phil...it is about faith. You have to have faith that God is true to His promises in regards to your giving, and then Him meeting your needs.

I'm living proof. I stepped out on faith when I knew that there was no way I could afford to give a tithe. When I did, it wasn't long that I started to notice that my old truck wasn't breaking down, or the washing machine, or the AC, etc. God proved to me his faithfulness and I am praising Him for it.


----------



## PWalls (Aug 23, 2007)

Thread is getting derailed pretty good here. Original topic was about Church on Sunday versus being in the Outdoors (ie Deer Hunting). Tithing is a topic we have hashed quite a few times in the past. Would be better to start another thread on it as the original post on this one was a good thread all its own anyway.

There is an elder farmer at my Church who relates his experiences on farming on Sundays. Even when Harvest time is at a crunch and they are working to the bone, he does not work on Sunday. He says that he has lost more time on Monday and Tuesday to damaged equipment on Sundays than he can count. He gets his crops in by not working on Sundays. May be a week or two later than everyone else but it doesn't hurt him.


----------



## jmharris23 (Aug 23, 2007)

WPH44 sorry if I misunderstood and for being touchy - I just read what you said- I can't tell how you meant it


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 23, 2007)

Dang and you boys were doing so well.

Now lets all hug and make up.....

Sorry for the tithing derail, but was just curious.

Now, back to hunting and church goin......


----------



## REMINGTON710 (Aug 23, 2007)

Jody Hawk said:


> This ain't about going to he!!. If you're a born again Christian that parts been covered. This is about obedience and putting God above your love for hunting.



well that may haven't been phrased correctly...


well I don't think by hunting on a Sunday I am putting hunting before Him.

I talk to God in the woods and We communicate in the woods like no where else.


----------



## Doc_Holliday23 (Aug 23, 2007)

I'm not in favor of skipping church to hunt (unless its a rare vacation time) but Sunday evenings and no church is fair game.  No better way to spend a Sunday afternoon.


----------



## Robk (Aug 23, 2007)

We beat this subject to death each and every year at this time.  Do what you think is right and we'll all find out in the end who was.

R


----------



## jmharris23 (Aug 23, 2007)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> I'm not in favor of skipping church to hunt (unless its a rare vacation time) but Sunday evenings and no church is fair game.  No better way to spend a Sunday afternoon.



I like the way this man thinks! 

We beat it to death because this is the spiritual debate forum. It's fun! Isn't everybody having fun??


----------



## jneil (Aug 23, 2007)

Do all you guys, and gals, pray before and after every hunt?


----------



## pfharris1965 (Aug 23, 2007)

*...*



jneil said:


> Do all you guys, and gals, pray before and after every hunt?


 
Daily when I wake up...it is not activity driven...why do you ask?


----------



## jneil (Aug 23, 2007)

It was more of a hunting oriented question, meaning when you go hunting do you pray for a safe, successful hunt and afterwards thank God your hunt was safe and thank Him for the bounty of the Earth you recieved if the hunt was successful. Have you ever prayed/thanked God over any fish or game you've harvested?


----------



## choctawlb (Aug 23, 2007)

Amen Brother,
Ken


----------



## pfharris1965 (Aug 23, 2007)

*...*



jneil said:


> Have you ever prayed/thanked God over any fish or game you've harvested?


 
Certainly...everytime...


----------



## hunter_58 (Aug 23, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> We beat it to death because this is the spiritual debate forum. It's fun! Isn't everybody having fun??




yep
it's almost like were are not afraid to assemble, talk about god. 
There is no music, but it's still fun, and i'm learning things
kinda makes a person think about being in a ????? whats that word??


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 23, 2007)

hunter_58 said:


> yep
> it's almost like were are not afraid to assemble, talk about god.
> There is no music, but it's still fun, and i'm learning things
> kinda makes a person think about being in a ????? whats that word??


 
If everyone agreed it wouldn't be a debate.......DUHH!!


----------



## SnowHunter (Aug 24, 2007)

Alright, in keeping with the subforums, rather then post this to the "Around the Campfire" thread I'm posting this here.

Its not about being thin skinned. Its about people who refuse to see others point of view and jump in with the typical "Bible" response. I'm not forsaking the Bible or Scripture, but its nice to hear people put things in thier own words from thier perspective, without passing judgement.

If one feels closer to God in the woods, be it hunting or otherwise, then good grief, thats something to be happy about! The GOOD thing is they believe and pray and worship God. Most folks dont even do that! It may not be what a lot of folks believe to be the right thing, and that they should go to Church to worship, but its definetaly not something I feel is going to get you in hot water with the Lord.

I, for one, feel closest to God when I'm in the woods, or all I have to do is look at my children and I feel at peace such as no other then the Lord can bring. 

And its not about going hunting or whatever rather then going to Church. Its about praying and worshiping where I feel closest to God.

If that puts me outside the "Christian" realm, then so be it, but its what I believe and feel is right, your methods may vary.


----------



## justthinking (Aug 24, 2007)

Her 1911 - 

I'm fairly new to this board but from what I understand from reading other threads, you were raised Catholic and then somewhat recently gave your life to Jesus? Is that the case?

If so, have you found a good, bible-teaching church in your area?

See, I was raised Catholic too for the first 28 years of my life and actually was saved/born again as a Catholic before God led me out of that denomination and into a solid, stand on the word, bible-teaching church.

(Yes you can be saved as a Catholic, and some do stay in that denomination. In my case, God very directly moved me out. Everyone's situation is different, and I'll leave it at that). 

I guess what I'm getting at is, I believe you are a new follower of Jesus who has left the Catholic church and maybe has not found a new group of believers to fellowship/pray/worship/learn with.???

I've read many of your posts and know without a shadow of a doubt that you would be a HUGE ASSET to any church that you would attend and become part of that family of believers. God has certainly gifted you in many ways and I believe there is a church out there looking for you (needing you!) to fill a huge hole in their fellowship.

Not sure if I'm way off on your situation or not, so I'll leave it at that and wait to hear your response.

God bless.


----------



## dutchman (Aug 24, 2007)

jneil said:


> It was more of a hunting oriented question, meaning when you go hunting do you pray for a safe, successful hunt and afterwards thank God your hunt was safe and thank Him for the bounty of the Earth you recieved if the hunt was successful. Have you ever prayed/thanked God over any fish or game you've harvested?



Yes, I pray prior to going out. I do as you have suggested. I ask God for a safe hunt and an enjoyable time in the woods. I thank Him for letting me be out there one more time. I also thank Him when He allows me to take game. But I also give Him thanks and praise for everything else in my life, so it's not extraordinary to thank Him in a hunting situation.


----------



## SBG (Aug 24, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> Certainly...everytime...




Amen!


----------



## Vernon Holt (Aug 24, 2007)

*Church vs Outdoors*



Her1911 said:


> "*Its not about being thin skinned. Its about people who refuse to see others point of view and jump in with the typical "Bible" response". *
> 
> Nic: One point that you seem to have overlooked. Opinions are a dime a dozen. Everybody has one. They may, or may not be based on logic or truth.
> 
> ...


----------



## jmharris23 (Aug 24, 2007)

Vernon Holt said:


> You should know that for the believer, Holy Scripture is *absolute truth. *We can ignore it, disbelieve it, or ridicule it, and that changes nothing.
> 
> It is important what God has to say in any moral or spiritual matter. Think about it!!






You mean someone still believes in absolute truth?? Thanks Mr. Vernon


----------



## SBG (Aug 24, 2007)

Vernon Holt said:


> Her1911 said:
> 
> 
> > "*Its not about being thin skinned. Its about people who refuse to see others point of view and jump in with the typical "Bible" response". *
> ...


----------



## Doc_Holliday23 (Aug 24, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> I know I am gonna get blasted for this one but...oh well... (and before anyone goes crazy on this one...my comments do not apply to ALL pastors and churches...I know there are some truly good ones out there...)
> 
> Instead of buying suits for a pastor or stained glass or air-conditioning for a building, my money (which is limited as it is) goes to take care of my family as I am sure God would expect a Christian to do...
> 
> I mean come on...if the difference in tithing that 10% meant the difference in keeping your roof over your head or having a pretty, comfortable church and a well dressed pastor every Sunday...what would you really do?  Do you forsake your family obligations to give to a Church?  Not me...


Malachi 3:10 says Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. *Test me in this,"* says the LORD Almighty, *"and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it."*

I believe that a blessed 90% will get you more than an un-blessed 100%.  Trust the Lord.

and growing up in the home of a Preacher, I can assure you that for every 1 slick-talking, Bentley-driving, television preacher, there are thousands of Preachers struggling in churches with less than 100 members, working second jobs, etc.  Conservative statistics say that 60% of all churches in America have less than 100 members while only slightly under 2% have more than 1000.

And lastly, even when we see a Preacher whose fruit does not match up with the Bible, we should all be careful about what we say about the Lord's anointed.


----------



## ALLBEEF (Aug 24, 2007)

I haven't read this whole thread but - I did read the first 4-5 post -- Just like a fellow that goes to church with me said " If you try hard enough you can justify anything." This includes missing church to hunt or fish.


----------



## groundhawg (Aug 24, 2007)

ALLBEEF said:


> I haven't read this whole thread but - I did read the first 4-5 post -- Just like a fellow that goes to church with me said " If you try hard enough you can justify anything." This includes missing church to hunt or fish.



Amen Brother.  That'll preach!


----------



## PWalls (Aug 24, 2007)

Vernon Holt said:


> Her1911 said:
> 
> 
> > "*Its not about being thin skinned. Its about people who refuse to see others point of view and jump in with the typical "Bible" response". *
> ...


----------



## dutchman (Aug 24, 2007)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> And lastly, even when we see a Preacher whose fruit does not match up with the Bible, we should all be careful about what we say about the Lord's anointed.



Amen to that!


----------



## SnowHunter (Aug 24, 2007)

gee why do I bother, some folks just cant read anything more then they want it to be. oh well.  
I dont have to explain myself to anyone. The Lord knows my thoughts and feelings.


----------



## crackerdave (Aug 24, 2007)

You mean you expected everybody to see it your way ?


----------



## SnowHunter (Aug 24, 2007)

no 
I expected folks to be able to read and see it not only from thier perspective but others as well, to read what some had to say and not twist it.


----------



## SnowHunter (Aug 24, 2007)

Vernon Holt said:


> "*Its not about being thin skinned. Its about people who refuse to see others point of view and jump in with the typical "Bible" response". *
> 
> Nic: One point that you seem to have overlooked. Opinions are a dime a dozen. Everybody has one. They may, or may not be based on logic or truth.
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

did anyone see this in my response?


> I'm not forsaking the Bible or Scripture, but its nice to hear people put things in thier own words from thier perspective, without passing judgement.


----------



## SnowHunter (Aug 24, 2007)

Look, I can see where yall are comin from, and I see yall are doing what yall feel/believe in. Good for yall! I applaude yall for being fierce believers  Maybe I just dont see myself as a "church-worthy" person, but I can tell you this, I pray worship and praise God on a daily basis. Maybe thats not enough for some people, but at this point in MY spiritual journey, it works. And thats what I feel this is, a spiritual journey. It may not be taking the most direct route, but with Gods guidance, I know that I will have a successful journey.

None of my comments are meant as disrespect to what anyone believes. We are all entitled to believe what God puts in our hearts.


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 24, 2007)

Her1911 said:


> no
> I expected folks to be able to read and see it not only from thier perspective but others as well, to read what some had to say and not twist it.


 
Man has this gotten out of control.

Issue one, we aren't seeing it from our perspective, we are seeing it from the perspective God has laid out in the Bible for us.

That being said, through our talks I have no doubt where you heart is and that when God feels you are ready he will lead you to where you need to be when he needs you there.

Most of these post, as hostile as they seem from an outside perspective were done in love for your spiritual well being. But that does not mean that they were conveyed in a loving way, my post included.

I am sorry if I have offended you, and only want the best for you and your family. To that end, and knowing your heart, I can trust that God will move you when the time is right, to where he needs you.

Nuff said.


----------



## SBG (Aug 24, 2007)

Its hard to kick against the pricks.


----------



## SnowHunter (Aug 24, 2007)

I wasnt offended, just got frusterated thats all. I do see where yall are comin from though, and dont fault anyone for saying what they feel is right or needs to be said. And its not always easy to interpret tone from typed words.


----------



## jason308 (Aug 24, 2007)

Maybe i shouldn't, but here goes.....I am the first one to admit that I don't give the Lord what I should often times....But, we are called to assemble together with other believers for spiritual edification....I don't believe that it matters if you are inside or outside....Can I worship God in my duck blind?  Absolutely.  Am I going to elmo if i don't make it to church on Sunday?  No, but there are many reasons why I should be there (and NOT in the duck blind during church)....We can worship God anywhere, at any time, and we are supposed to do this....This is why we were created.  But we still need to go to church to build ourselves up spiritually and to build others up as well.   Paul wrote a LOT about things like this.  

On the flip side, I had a buddy who thought that hunting on Sunday evening (after you went to church on sunday morning and didn't have church Sunday night) meant you were enjoying the "pleasures of the world" on the Sabbath...I asked him if he ever watched a ball game on Sunday afternoon after church.....Or if he went out to eat after church, or did anything else....Is that not enjoying the "pleasures of the world" on the Sabbath???  He said they were two different things....But they are not.....


----------



## shdw633 (Aug 24, 2007)

Just my .02 cents but I have to say it does not matter where you praise the Lord and worship him.  Whether in the company of other hunting friends that also worship him or even by yourself in a treestand the importance is your love and admiration for the almighty.  Lets remember the time Jesus went out to the desert and fasted.  I am pretty sure there weren't any churches out there and I am pretty sure he gave worship and admiration to his father.  I agree that we are not going to all agree on this but you can't just take a line or two out of the bible and stand on a soap box with it, you must take all of the scriptures and apply them to your life.  There are churches in prison, why not churches in the woods.  God is all knowing and all present and he knows what is in your heart and quite frankly I feel I am more spirtitual when I am in the woods than I ever feel when I am in the church.  Again just my .02.


----------



## armyof1 (Aug 24, 2007)

Wow, God is good!! Another great post for discussion.

Let me jump into the fray by saying I am a churchgoer not out of duty or obligation but out of a "want to." Let me go further and lay all of my cards on the table by saying that I am the Associate Pastor at the church I attend but this does not influence one bit why I attend. Yes the people who "employ" me require me to be there but this is not my true motivation for going.

Let me explain...Not too long ago, one of our church members began talking to me about why people did not attend church on Sunday evenings. She brought up the fact that everyone has busy lifestyles and some people only have Sundays to enjoy time with their familiy. She went on to say that people who do not attend church, don't love Jesus any less, but its just that work and other activites draw them away from church. And here's the kicker...she told me that everyone was not as fortunate as I am, being that I have a day off during the week because I "work" on Sundays. This blew me away. I don't consider what I do work, I have been in the public workforce and believe me this is not work. I serve a risen Savior.

My reply to her was until August 2004 I held a public job where I worked in textile manufacturing plant M-F and every other Saturday. When Sunday and Wednesday came, I went to church because I wanted to, not because someone made me. I love to hunt and participate in other activites but I place then aside to come together with other believers on these days. I don't criticize anyone for their position but I want you to understand where I come from.

So, why then did I do it then and why do I do it now? Two reasons come to mind...the first being that the church is made up of the people not the building, although many times we put the building before the people. If we look to the Bible, Acts 2:46 tells us that the early church (right after Pentecost) met daily in the temple and broke bread from house to house. (Wow, what an indictment on us in that we only have two days set aside to meet together but that is a topic for another thread.) Just think about that for a moment...they met with each other because of the common bond they shared in the Lord Jesus Christ. Sounds a lot like "want to" to me. And they did it daily. If you study the 1st Century church, you will find that they met before they went to work and after they got off EACH DAY. The need for fellowship and exhortation (being taught the doctrines of the fatih) were seen as necessary. I believe this is because their faith centered on what the Lord Jesus had done for them not what they can get from Him. Sadly, today we (myself included) are more concerned about what we can get rather than what has been given. So the first reason I go is because I believe the Bible gives us a good example of attending church. 

The second reason I go is because I love being around God's people. Are they all perfect? No and if they were, they blew it when they welcomed me into their midst. If you have ever experienced the unconditional love of God's people then you would desire to be among those people. I have experienced it and let me tell you it is an awesome thing. My desire is to extend that love to anyone who walks in the doors of our church. And the bonus is we get to worship the risen Lord togehter. Do I also want to see them built up in the knowledge of our faith? Well shoot yea. This is why we need the church, to encourage one another and learn the doctrines of our faith. I bleieve this also supports the Great Commandments pur forth by Jesus when Her said to love the Lord our God with all of heart, soul, sterngth, and mind (expressed through worship) and to love our neighbor as ourself (building each other up). This is what a church should be doing and this is the reason I go, so God can glorify Himself by using me in some form or fashion to build others. Its about Him and them. The bonus is I receive unconditional love from Him and them. Works out real good if you ask me.

Now, many have said they worship while in nature. Let me say AMEN!!!! We all can worship while inthe woods, on the lake, or whereever you may be. Jesus actually referred to this in John 4 when He told the woman at the well that the "Father was seking those who worship Him in spirit and truth." No better time to pull out the "Good Book" than when one is hangign 25 feet off the ground dressed in camo with a .270 laid across his lap. I have met the Lord there, and by the way it does not take two or three for the Lord to be in their midst, it only takes one heart that is "broken and contrite" before Him and I know the God I serve will be there. Keep on seeking Him around the campfire, in the deerstand, on the lake, and whereever else you are. He will be found by thise who seek Him in spirit and truth. Oh and by the way, don't forget to join other believers in worship. It might just be that the Lord will place you in the midst of a group of people that love you just because you are their brother or sister in Christ. Wouldn't that be great? Then you can become part of a local body of believers for the glory of God.

As far as Sunday goes, I will be in the Lord's house expressing my gratitude for His Son Jesus Christ who is my Lord and Savior. Ya'll have fun with this.


----------



## Branchminnow (Aug 24, 2007)

dutchman said:


> Branch,
> 
> The posts in this thread could make up about a month's worth of sermons, huh?
> 
> ...



Definatly some great things to meditate about.


----------



## Branchminnow (Aug 24, 2007)

ALLBEEF said:


> I haven't read this whole thread but - I did read the first 4-5 post -- Just like a fellow that goes to church with me said " If you try hard enough you can justify anything." This includes missing church to hunt or fish.



yes sir I hear you.


----------



## Branchminnow (Aug 24, 2007)

SBG said:


> Its hard to kick against the pricks.



as I finished reading a few of these that is the scripture that came to my heart as well.


----------



## SnowHunter (Aug 24, 2007)

Armyof1, outstanding post!


----------



## FishFanatic (Aug 24, 2007)

Armyof1....I second that...great post.  You summed up in a much better fashion what I was trying to say.  Again...awesome post.


----------



## Branchminnow (Aug 24, 2007)

I like plain talk. Sometimes the truth makes folks feel uncomfortable.


----------



## SBG (Aug 24, 2007)

Thank you armyof1...that is a good post.

This issue is actually two topics that have merged into one.

The first topic, and what seems to be the original intent of the thread, is concerning whether or not a Christian should substitute hunting, fishing, picnicing, whatever for church time, and then try and rationalize why they do by claiming that they are in God's "creation" so that makes it okay. 

The other topic is whether or not it is right of wrong to participate in these activities at all on Sunday. I believe that there is a consensus here that it is not wrong to do so. Now my dad would likely differ with us on this...but he ain't a member here. 

I am curious. What scripture do you other folks use to justify putting other activities before God? Please don't tell me how you feel, or your opininon. Since God's Word is our guide and our roadmap for life, please reference the scriptures that you use.


----------



## dutchman (Aug 24, 2007)

Branchminnow said:


> I like plain talk. Sometimes the truth makes folks feel uncomfortable.



Plain talk is plain understood. I like it, myself.


----------



## Doc_Holliday23 (Aug 24, 2007)

Her1911 said:


> Look, I can see where yall are comin from, and I see yall are doing what yall feel/believe in. Good for yall! I applaude yall for being fierce believers  Maybe I just dont see myself as a "church-worthy" person, but I can tell you this, I pray worship and praise God on a daily basis. Maybe thats not enough for some people, but at this point in MY spiritual journey, it works. And thats what I feel this is, a spiritual journey. It may not be taking the most direct route, but with Gods guidance, I know that I will have a successful journey.
> 
> None of my comments are meant as disrespect to what anyone believes. We are all entitled to believe what God puts in our hearts.


The Bible says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.  More power to you.


----------



## armyof1 (Aug 24, 2007)

SBG - I don't beleive I justified putting other activities before God. If I did then I did a very poor job of communicating my position. I clearly wrote that I do not put activities before God. I wrote that I lay them (actually in the post it read then but I meant them) aside on Sundays and Wednesdays in order to be in the Lord's house (I did not use these exact words but this is the message I was trying to communicate). 

Also in the next to last paragraph, I wrote "and oh by the way don't forget to join other believers in worship." The last sentence..."then you can become a part of a local body of believers" (i.e. the church). I have not justified placing activities before the Lord and I never will. But let me add that I cannot impose my personal convictions on another nor will I try. Man would they be in bad shape. But I will speak from the example we have in the Bible as well as other Scripture admonition and I will tell you why I attend. Remember the old saying...you can lead the horse to water but you can't make him drink. Well I can tell others why but I can't make them act, this is the work of the Holy Spirit not Ken.

By the way since I am here, let me add one more thing for everyone...I go to church because Jesus Christ is my Lord. I was a wtretched sinner and in November 1999, while out in the woods on a Saturday afternoon with said deer rifle across my lap, I became a follower of Jesus Christ. While in God's creation, He confronted me with the fact that I was a sinner and had not been saved by His grace through Jesus Christ. Let me tell you a holy terror came across me because I had enough biblical knowledge to understand the ramifications of of being under His wrath. Man I couldn't pray fast enough so I would come out from that wrath. That's right you can be anywhere to meet God; it is amazing how He works. Once you become a follower then it is best to become part of a local body of believers in order to be built up in your faith.

If my position still seems unclear then please ask for clarification.


----------



## SBG (Aug 24, 2007)

armyof1 said:


> SBG - I don't beleive I justified putting other activities before God. If I did then I did a very poor job of communicating my position. I clearly wrote that I do not put activities before God. I wrote that I lay them (actually in the post it read then but I meant them) aside on Sundays and Wednesdays in order to be in the Lord's house (I did not use these exact words but this is the message I was trying to communicate).
> 
> Also in the next to last paragraph, I wrote "and oh by the way don't forget to join other believers in worship." The last sentence..."then you can become a part of a local body of believers" (i.e. the church). I have not justified placing activities before the Lord and I never will. But let me add that I cannot impose my personal convictions on another nor will I try. Man would they be in bad shape. But I will speak from the example we have in the Bible as well as other Scripture admonition and I will tell you why I attend. Remember the old saying...you can lead the horse to water but you can't make him drink. Well I can tell others why but I can't make them act, this is the work of the Holy Spirit not Ken.
> 
> ...



Sorry about that army. It was my fault for the misunderstanding. My post was poorly constructed and I have went back and edited it. I agree with your position.


----------



## crackerdave (Aug 24, 2007)

This thread really touched a nerve ! Could it be that most of us have struggled with this question before ? I know I have.


----------



## SnowHunter (Aug 24, 2007)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> The Bible says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.



can you elaborate for me, please?


----------



## jmharris23 (Aug 25, 2007)

Her1911 said:


> can you elaborate for me, please?



This verse is found in Philippians 2:12

What it means is once you are saved( have decided that you need Jesus more than you need yourself and have given your life to Him) then you must work out that salvation by doing things that will help you to grow

Such as prayer, study of God's word(when I say study I dont mean just reading, I mean being taught by the Holy Spirit as well allowing someone who has more knowledge of Scripture help you learn, worship, spiritual disciplines. These are a few ways we "work out" our salvation - think of it kinda like exercise. 

Paul says in this passage that we do this so we can know the will of God for our lives and act according to it for HIS good purpose

I hope this helps a little - if you have any questions just ask!


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 25, 2007)

*Hebrews 4*

*A Sabbath-Rest for the People of God *

 1Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. 2For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.<SUP>[a]</SUP> 3Now we who have believed enter that rest, just as God has said, 
   "So I declared on oath in my anger, 
   'They shall never enter my rest.' "<SUP>[b]</SUP> And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. 4For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work."<SUP>[c]</SUP> 5And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest." 

 6It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. 7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: 
   "Today, if you hear his voice, 
      do not harden your hearts."<SUP>[d]</SUP> 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. 9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; 10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his. 11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.  12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 13Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

It would be apparent through scripture that it is not necessary that Sunday be the day of rest, but it is apparent what we are to do on that day of rest.

There are many scriptures and many angles for debate on this topic and I feel that if we approach it in the proper way there is room for everyone of every walk to participate and learn.

In debate, it is possible to deliberate and dissagree without anger and aggression. Keep this in mind, on all debate forums. If a post makes you angry, then it is best to step away or visit another thread for awhile and mull over the remarks, research them and then respond in a deliberative way, not out of anger.


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 25, 2007)

I am quite certain you are speaking of resting In God (being content within, consoled by your faith in)  and not setting aside a day for resting your soul and body as the scripture clearly states.

There are different kinds of rest.


----------



## SnowHunter (Aug 25, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> This verse is found in Philippians 2:12
> 
> What it means is once you are saved( have decided that you need Jesus more than you need yourself and have given your life to Him) then you must work out that salvation by doing things that will help you to grow
> 
> ...



Thanks for the clarification...the fear and trembling part had me a bit confused


----------



## jmharris23 (Aug 25, 2007)

Her1911 said:


> Thanks for the clarification...the fear and trembling part had me a bit confused



The thing we must remember when we read scripture is that it is a collection of writings and letters written a long time ago in languages (Greek, Hebrew, & Aramic)that only the most studied fully understand. 

Does this mean that it is not applicable today? Absolutely not! Does this mean that we must read with the audience for which is was intended in mind when we read and interpret it? Absolutely!

When Paul wrote to "work it out with fear and trembling" what He is saying is as we "work out" our salavation, we must do so with caution and reverence for God. What Paul is saying is that even though God is gracious and loving and merciful and has provided you with salvation, He is still God - the creator of the universe, the same God who is able to do all things, the God who gives and takes away, the all powerful one- Paul says don't forget that as you live this Christian life you are serving the Almighty God. 

He is telling them that if you believe that He is that great, you will do what He says to do! 

Again I hope this helps


----------



## SnowHunter (Aug 25, 2007)

yup helps a lot!!


----------



## hunter_58 (Aug 25, 2007)

60Grit said:


> *
> In debate, it is possible to deliberate and dissagree without anger and aggression. Keep this in mind, on all debate forums. If a post makes you angry, then it is best to step away or visit another thread for awhile and mull over the remarks, research them and then respond in a deliberative way, not out of anger.*


*

yep 60, i agree with this part.
many churches, marriages and families, were broken apart by such simple disagreements.

If everyone interpreted the bible the same way, there would only be one church about every twenty miles, up and down our roads.
  Couldn't it be that each person gets what that individual needs from the bible, as opposed to a strict your going to idiotidiotidiotidiot if you dont see it my way.

I believe, like some said on here earlier, that Jesus found a shady spot, and talked with his friends, teaching them.*


----------



## crackerdave (Aug 26, 2007)

If you sincerely pray and ask God to show you the way He wants you to go - on ANY issue - He'll show you. You cannot go wrong by asking yourself: "How would Jesus handle this situation?" Of course the only way you'll know how He would handle it is to know Him and know His Word.


----------



## Doc_Holliday23 (Aug 27, 2007)

Her1911 said:


> Thanks for the clarification...the fear and trembling part had me a bit confused



The Bible also says to fear God and keep his commandments.  Now, I don't think this means we are to always be scared that God will strike us down if we are not perfect, but I believe it could be better translated to "respect."  I believe that, while God loves us very much and it is not his will that any man should perish, he is also not a compromising God or a God that tolerates sin.  He calls us to live holy lives.  Our desires should match God's desires.

There are only two people who truly know your heart... you and God.  Thats why you must work out your salvation with God.  I'm not sure if that means that each person is held to a different standard, but maybe.  It IS up to personal interpretation, but that interpretation should be made with the fact in mind that God is a Holy being, omniscient and omnipotent, and he abhors sin 100%.  We should be reverent of the fact that our eternal destiny lies in his hands.


----------



## SnowHunter (Aug 27, 2007)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> The Bible also says to fear God and keep his commandments.  Now, I don't think this means we are to always be scared that God will strike us down if we are not perfect, but I believe it could be better translated to "respect."  I believe that, while God loves us very much and it is not his will that any man should perish, he is also not a compromising God or a God that tolerates sin.  He calls us to live holy lives.  Our desires should match God's desires.
> 
> There are only two people who truly know your heart... you and God.  Thats why you must work out your salvation with God.  I'm not sure if that means that each person is held to a different standard, but maybe.  It IS up to personal interpretation, but that interpretation should be made with the fact in mind that God is a Holy being, omniscient and omnipotent, and he abhors sin 100%.  We should be reverent of the fact that our eternal destiny lies in his hands.



very well put, and I definetaly seem to be thinking close along the line of what you are saying.


----------



## SBG (Aug 27, 2007)

SBG said:


> I am curious. What scripture do you other folks use to justify putting other activities before God? Please don't tell me how you feel, or your opininon. Since God's Word is our guide and our roadmap for life, please reference the scriptures that you use.


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

SBG said:


> I am curious. What scripture do you other folks use to justify putting other activities before God? Please don't tell me how you feel, or your opininon. Since God's Word is our guide and our roadmap for life, please reference the scriptures that you use.



Who said they did?


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>In Greek</TD></TR><TR><TD>*church*</TD><TD>*= *</TD><TD>*εκκλησία*</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD>*ekklisia*</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Thing is, at the time of the translations, archeologically, no buildings for teachings of the word existed.

Congregation of believers came about during the represion of Christianity, when they literally had to worship in groups in hiding for fear of their life.

Just thought I'd toss that tidbit in the soup..


----------



## PWalls (Aug 27, 2007)

60Grit said:


> <TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>In Greek</TD></TR><TR><TD>*church*</TD><TD>*= *</TD><TD>*εκκλησία*</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD>*ekklisia*</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
> 
> Thing is, at the time of the translations, archeologically, no buildings for teachings of the word existed.
> 
> ...



Good point. However still remains that they "gathered" and "worshipped" in "groups". The Book of Acts does not show believers replacing worship time with the group of believers with worshipping on the boat or in the woods. They may bery well have done both, but they did not forsake the other.


----------



## pfharris1965 (Aug 27, 2007)

*...*



60Grit said:


> <TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD>In Greek</TD></TR><TR><TD>*church*</TD><TD>*= *</TD><TD>*εκκλησία*</TD></TR><TR><TD></TD><TD></TD><TD>*ekklisia*</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
> 
> Thing is, at the time of the translations, archeologically, no buildings for teachings of the word existed.
> 
> ...


 
That is pretty cool right there...

I watched a show on early Christians and it told about how the ban on Christianity was lifted in the Roman Empire around 313 AD and the impact it had, etc...it was on the National Geographic channel...pretty objective show too...


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> That is pretty cool right there...
> 
> I watched a show on early Christians and it told about how the ban on Christianity was lifted in the Roman empire around 313 AD and the impast it had, etc...it was on the National Geographic channel...pretty objective show too...


 
Did they happen to get into all of the modern day mis-interpretations of the book of Revelations???

(ps, I'm saving that one for a later thread...)


----------



## SBG (Aug 27, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> pretty objective show too...


----------



## SBG (Aug 27, 2007)

Randy said:


> Who said they did?


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

SBG said:


>


 
That was constructive.........


----------



## SBG (Aug 27, 2007)

60Grit said:


> That was constructive.........



What? Laughing at the fact that someone could call a show about Christianity on National Geographic objective?

I gonna have to break-out the Uncle Jed comment on ya.


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

SBG said:


> What? Laughing at the fact that someone could call a show about Christianity on National Geographic objective?
> 
> I gonna have to break-out the Uncle Jed comment on ya.


 
So who would you choose to produce an objective Documentar about Early Christianity??? 

Did you watch the show that Phil cited or are you offering an unsubstantiated opinion about it??

These are some of the parameters that we are discussing retaining in a debate.


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

You may not think it is relative but I certainly think it is...

How many eat out for Sunday dinner?

How many hunt on Saturday?


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

Back to topic huh???

If you insist.

My wife works the weekends, as an RN, 6pm to 6am.
Occasionally, about 4 times a year, she will get to work a friday night and be off on Saturday then back on on Sunday night. This is one of the rare occasions that we get to be in church together. On those days we go out to eat.

I know some have said that if they had to work on Sunday they'd find a different job, which is great if you are not in a field where peoples lives are dependant on you.



When she is working, my son and I go eat at my mom and dads house, which is the other 48 sundays of the year.

As far as hunting on Sundays, I was raised not to, but if this Saturday night church service works out I might have to occasionally give it a shot.


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

The reason for my post is Saturday is really the sabbath.  Some heathens changed it along the way.  So all that hunt on Saturday are really the ones that are wrong.

And what does going out to eat after church on Sunday have to do with it?  Well if you do believe Sunday is the sabbath then you are still sinning if you go out and eat.

Bottom line is not a single one of us has th right to say what is right or wrong.  We all sin and some of the things we "think" are right would have been considered wrong by Jesus in His time.

I don't have to "justify" anything I do with scripture.  Most don't know the intent of the scripture to even use it correctly!


----------



## SBG (Aug 27, 2007)

60Grit said:


> So who would you choose to produce an objective Documentar about Early Christianity???
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

Randy said:


> The reason for my post is Saturday is really the sabbath. Some heathens changed it along the way. So all that hunt on Saturday are really the ones that are wrong.
> 
> And what does going out to eat after church on Sunday have to do with it? Well if you do believe Sunday is the sabbath then you are still sinning if you go out and eat.
> 
> ...


 
Interesting, would you please provide a new testament scripture showing where these heathans changed it, or where it is stated as Sunday.

Pauls teachings may be of interest to you in this area.


----------



## SBG (Aug 27, 2007)

Randy said:


> The reason for my post is Saturday is really the sabbath.  Some heathens changed it along the way.  So all that hunt on Saturday are really the ones that are wrong.
> 
> And what does going out to eat after church on Sunday have to do with it?  Well if you do believe Sunday is the sabbath then you are still sinning if you go out and eat.
> 
> ...



So you are saying that the early Christians were heathens? They are the one's that established Sunday as their day of rest and worship.


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

SBG said:


> So you are saying that the early Christians were heathens? They are the one's that established Sunday as their day of rest and worship.


 
Actually, early Christians were still also followers of Judaism and Saturday was their sabbath.


----------



## pfharris1965 (Aug 27, 2007)

*...*



SBG said:


> They are the one's that established Sunday as their day of rest and worship.


 
Well, this past Sunday was certainly my day of rest...and worship...

I was at deer camp for our work weekend and I slept in until around 8:30am (that would be the resting part) and then I got up and said a long prayer asking for God's blessings on the day and thanking him for all that He has given me then I got out in His glorious creations (nature) and tilled and planted and had a super wonderful day...(that would be the worshiping part)...

Works for me...


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

60Grit said:


> Actually, early Christians were still also followers of Judaism and Saturday was their sabbath.



Correct and that came from the seventh day being a day of rest as given by God. Saturday is the 7th day.  Sunday is the first day.

Yes it was those early christian heathens that changed it!


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

Randy said:


> Correct and that came from the seventh day being a day of rest as given by God. Saturday is the 7th day. Sunday is the first day.
> 
> Yes it was those early christian heathens that changed it!


 
Now we can debate calendars through the ages. That ought to really mix things up....


----------



## SBG (Aug 27, 2007)

60Grit said:


> Actually, early Christians were still also followers of Judaism and Saturday was their sabbath.



Well if you want to nitpick "early" in an attempt to try and score a "look at me" point...I guess I'll concede that to you.


----------



## SBG (Aug 27, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> Works for me...



I have no doubt.


----------



## Carp (Aug 27, 2007)

hunter_58 said:


> I enjoy coming on here and reading these post!
> 
> while i was reading this thread, i was thinking about the above Quote.
> This ties directly with the post from her 1911
> ...




Well said.


----------



## pfharris1965 (Aug 27, 2007)

*...*



SBG said:


> I have no doubt.


 
 <---I guess it is okay to use that smiley in this forum...  

...and I bet God listened to my prayers just the same as he did the folks that were sitting in church or the same as the homeless man that prayed for a means of getting something to eat or a roof over his head or for the orphan that prayed for a loving home to adopt him/her...

I am glad Christians do not have ranking and priority status when it comes to chosen methods of worship and answering of prayers...although I have seen some folks over the years that would swear to you they had a direct line to God Himself but then again they always wanted me to make the check payable to them... 

This has been a great thread...all over the place in topic but still a great read...


----------



## SBG (Aug 27, 2007)

SBG said:


> I am curious. What scripture do you other folks use to justify putting other activities before God? Please don't tell me how you feel, or your opininon. Since God's Word is our guide and our roadmap for life, please reference the scriptures that you use.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 27, 2007)

fishing technician said:


> Where in the New Testament does it say to tithe?



Good question.

But I would be more concerned about where it says we dont have to tithe in the old or new testaments.


----------



## PWalls (Aug 27, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> But I would be more concerned about where it says we dont have to tithe in the old or new testaments.



And, that is the better question.


----------



## MSU bowhunter (Aug 27, 2007)

Church is important, extremely!, but hunting from time to time is good.  Replacing church with anything else is dumb.


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

SBG said:


>



I guess I am missing your point on continuously quoting yourself.


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> Good question.
> 
> But I would be more concerned about where it says we dont have to tithe in the old or new testaments.



So your point is when the Bible says do something you should do it and when it does not say do something you should still do it?


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 27, 2007)

Randy said:


> So your point is when the Bible says do something you should do it and when it does not say do something you should still do it?



No, my point was, we were told in Malachi to bring our tithes to the storehouse. We are never told anywhere not to do  that.


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

fishing technician said:


> I guess we should start gathering up stones and start stoning all these adulteres and homos since we are going to be under the Jewish law. Titling was under Jewish law to the Jews. If you are a Jew under the law then by all means tithe to your hearts content. As for me, I'm under Grace and not bound by the law. AMEN


 
So now we are disecting jewish law from christian law and which ones to carry forward???

I suppose that means that the 10 commandments are out the window as well.......

PULLEEEEEZZZZZ


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> No, my point was, we were told in Malachi to bring our tithes to the storehouse. We are never told anywhere not to do  that.



As I pointed out before, people use scriptures when they do not undestand the intent or meaning.

Are we still under the Old Law or did Jesus change that?


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

NOPE we're free from it.

Go out and do yourself some murdering and stealing and adultering. 

Nothing to worry about I'm sure........


----------



## PWalls (Aug 27, 2007)

fishing technician said:


> Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.



Context, Context, Context.

2Cor9:7 is misused by many people to get out of tithing. Read verse 1 of that chapter. Paul says "For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superflous for me to write to you".

This entire chapter then is put into the perspective of a love offering to fellow believers or support of fellow churches. The church at Corinth was doing this, they gave him a huge sum of money to take back to Jerusalem with him to help out that church there.

Paul says that we should be a cheerful giver with respect to love offerings.

Love offerings are after the tithe. Love offerings do not replace the tithe.


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

PWalls said:


> Context, Context, Context.
> 
> 2Cor9:7 is misused by many people to get out of tithing. Read verse 1 of that chapter. Paul says "For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superflous for me to write to you".
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for that Pwalls.

I would like to add, that Jesus came and freed us from the law of Moses, not God's laws.

Big difference.


----------



## PWalls (Aug 27, 2007)

fishing technician said:


> Most of the churches today remind me of a social club where you have to pay your club dues or you get kicked out.



Beg to differ. Most churches follow the 80-20 rule. 20% of the congregation gives 80% of the money. That means there is 80% of the congregation that gives either nothing or a piddly amount. If churches kicked out those people as you suggest, then there would be nobody there.

Imagine the outreach and ministry that could take place if 100% gave the 10% they should.


----------



## PWalls (Aug 27, 2007)

fishing technician said:


> No where does it say to tithe to the Gentiles. That was under Jewish law to the Jews only. Paul never told the Gentiles to tithe.



So, you do not read the Old Testament? Since it is obviously only for the Jews? Nothing that is in there matters? God of the Old Testament is not the same God as the one in the New Testament?

By the way, the Jews are God's Children. They are to tithe. But guess what, Christians (regardless of Jew or Gentile) are God's Children as well (adoption through the Son - I'm sure you have heard of that). 

What are you looking for? A passage written by Paul that says: "Fishing Technician, you are to give 10% of your income to a local church."?


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

PWalls said:


> Context, Context, Context.
> 
> 2Cor9:7 is misused by many people to get out of tithing. Read verse 1 of that chapter. Paul says "For as touching the ministering to the saints, it is superflous for me to write to you".
> 
> ...



You are correct this has NOTHING to do with tything.  Because tything was not required.


----------



## PWalls (Aug 27, 2007)

fishing technician said:


> Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.



Echo in here?

Read Post #182.


----------



## PWalls (Aug 27, 2007)

fishing technician said:


> If God purposes for you to put 10% in by all means do so, and don't worry about what God has purposed in Joe Dirts heart to give.



I don't worry about Joe Dirt. I guess this is where the debate degenerates into where I am "judging" someone now.

I made a counterpoint to your scripture. Please rebutt without the cop-out.


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

PWalls said:


> What are you looking for? A passage written by Paul that says: "Fishing Technician, you are to give 10% of your income to a local church."?



No but many churches believe it is written to each one of us.  It was, at that time, a requirement of the Jews.


----------



## PWalls (Aug 27, 2007)

fishing technician said:


> You give what you want to give and be thankful. I will do the same and be thankful.  Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.



Yes, when I tithe and make a love offering, it is done cheerfully and not because I am mandated to do so. I give back some of what God has given me.

But, you can still not use that Scripture to refute or deny the case for a Tithe.


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

All I can say is I have walked both paths, I care not to go back to the limited blessings of when I did not tithe at least 10% freely, with a giving heart.

To whom and how you tithe it and is subjective at this point, and if your heart is in the right place then we can only hope that God see's that they are used for his purpose and plans.


----------



## SBG (Aug 27, 2007)

It appears that are many on here that actually think that their treasure actually belongs to them. 

The Bible is spiritually discerned.


----------



## SBG (Aug 27, 2007)

Randy said:


> I guess I am missing your point on continuously quoting yourself.



Just wanting someone to provide scriptural reference for putting nature in front of church.


----------



## SnowHunter (Aug 27, 2007)

SBG said:


> Just wanting someone to provide scriptural reference for putting nature in front of church.



for me, my heart leads me to worship, pray and come closer to God in His Creation/Nature. At least on this part of my spiritual journey. 

Now that may not go with how others think it should be...but thats how it is for me at this point in time.

forgive me, but I do not have scriptual reference for it, just what my heart tells me


----------



## PWalls (Aug 27, 2007)

Her1911 said:


> for me, my heart leads me to worship, pray and come closer to God in His Creation/Nature. At least on this part of my spiritual journey.
> 
> Now that may not go with how others think it should be...but thats how it is for me at this point in time.
> 
> forgive me, but I do not have scriptual reference for it, just what my heart tells me



Good answer.

Please continue to look for that loving Church of believers though. Take it from us who were where you are. It is out there and it will help you grow closer to God and His Word.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 27, 2007)

fishing technician said:


> Most of the churches today remind me of a social club where you have to pay your club dues or you get kicked out.



Have you ever considered that Churches have utility bills? If nothing else they will pay a light bill, they have insurance, these are the basics. Not many churches are paid for at the bank either. If every one had the same outlook as you, how do you think these basic bills are going to get paid so you will have padded seats under the ac/heat? Its like saying "I want a church that will stand behind me when Im in need, but I aint gonna support it"

BTW, I do not know of any churches that kick folks out for not paying tithes. Step on their toes from the pulpit maybe, but not kick them out.


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> BTW, I do not know of any churches that kick folks out for not paying tithes. Step on their toes from the pulpit maybe, but not kick them out.



I know of two churchs right here in Griffin that send out notices at the end of the year if you have not fullfilled your 10% tythe.  Not sure what they do if you do not respond to the notices but my guess is most are to concerned they will be outted and send the rest in.  These happen to be the two biggest churchs in the county.  Wonder why?  One even has a private christian school and if you have the money you can send your kids there even if you are not a member.  If you don't have the money your kids can not go there even if you are a member.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 27, 2007)

Randy said:


> No but many churches believe it is written to each one of us.  It was, at that time, a requirement of the Jews.



Randy, paying tithes, giving, whatever you want to call it goes farther than Jewish or Moses Laws. Actually it can go back to Jacob in Genesis 28 and vs 22. May not be a law and may not be called tithes, but scriptures are there for us to learn from and grow from, and that is scripture also..............2 Timothy 3:16.  

Too many people are hung up on Old vs New Testament, but even the 10 commandments are in the new test. Might be valuable to sit down and take it step by step and compare the 2. Dont take anyones word, read it and you will see they go hand in hand.


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

Randy said:


> I know of two churchs right here in Griffin that send out notices at the end of the year if you have not fullfilled your 10% tythe. Not sure what they do if you do not respond to the notices but my guess is most are to concerned they will be outted and send the rest in. These happen to be the two biggest churchs in the county. Wonder why? One even has a private christian school and if you have the money you can send your kids there even if you are not a member. If you don't have the money your kids can not go there even if you are a member.


 
Are they sending notices regarding unmet tithes or unmet pledges??

Different Items.


----------



## PWalls (Aug 27, 2007)

Randy said:


> I know of two churchs right here in Griffin that send out notices at the end of the year if you have not fullfilled your 10% tythe.  Not sure what they do if you do not respond to the notices but my guess is most are to concerned they will be outted and send the rest in.  These happen to be the two biggest churchs in the county.  Wonder why?  One even has a private christian school and if you have the money you can send your kids there even if you are not a member.  If you don't have the money your kids can not go there even if you are a member.



I disagree with that Church's policy. I do not believe it to be Biblical. Some of those larger churches do that and justify it by saying they need commitment cards for "budgeting" reasons.

There is only one person at our church who knows who gives what. That is our Treasurer. And, then she only knows if you give a check. She doesn't tell the Pastor of Deacon Chairman or anybody.


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 27, 2007)

Randy said:


> I know of two churchs right here in Griffin that send out notices at the end of the year if you have not fullfilled your 10% tythe.  Not sure what they do if you do not respond to the notices but my guess is most are to concerned they will be outted and send the rest in.  These happen to be the two biggest churchs in the county.  Wonder why?  One even has a private christian school and if you have the money you can send your kids there even if you are not a member.  If you don't have the money your kids can not go there even if you are a member.



The private school part I could understand the money issues with, the rest, calling them self a "church" might be just the way they have their "business" listed.


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

60Grit said:


> Are they sending notices regarding unmet tithes or unmet pledges??
> 
> Different Items.



Unmet tythes.


----------



## PWalls (Aug 27, 2007)

Randy said:


> Unmet tythes.



How can they do that. A tithe is 10% of a person's gross worth (in my opinion). Do those people announce to their church how much they are worth so it can be calculated?


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

PWalls said:


> I disagree with that Church's policy. I do not believe it to be Biblical. Some of those larger churches do that and justify it by saying they need commitment cards for "budgeting" reasons.
> 
> There is only one person at our church who knows who gives what. That is our Treasurer. And, then she only knows if you give a check. She doesn't tell the Pastor of Deacon Chairman or anybody.


 
To your point, I know of two churches in the metro area that allow you to sit according to the copy of the W2 you must provide them and the 10% accordingly expected.

That being said, their congregation is insane for putting up with that.


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

Randy said:


> Unmet tythes.


 
All they'd see from this member is elbows and .....err well you know, if they were to send me a letter to that effect.


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

PWalls said:


> How can they do that. A tithe is 10% of a person's gross worth (in my opinion). Do those people announce to their church how much they are worth so it can be calculated?



Ahhh?  Now you know why the church asks what you make when you join?


----------



## Jody Hawk (Aug 27, 2007)

Randy said:


> I know of two churchs right here in Griffin that send out notices at the end of the year if you have not fullfilled your 10% tythe.



Seems like I heard of one here in Monroe that has done this. Pastor reminded the congregation that some members had not paid their tithes.


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 27, 2007)

PWalls said:


> Good answer.
> 
> Please continue to look for that loving Church of believers though. Take it from us who were where you are. It is out there and it will help you grow closer to God and His Word.



Agreed. 

I may have an outdoor experience with the Lord that is awesome, more than what I experience in church on Sunday, but the bible tells us that "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God".  

While a recent outdoor storm watch event had me praising God (hence why I choose a new avatar ) for His power and majesty,  I choose to worship Him with the saints also, because worship and growth with other christians happens more in a place of hearing the word and being accountable to my fellow believers (church fellowship) than what goes on in a moment or two of outdoors with the Lord.  

When I was a young christian, I suffered the consequences of thinking I didn't need the preaching of the word of God;  now thru time and experience, I know I can grow no other way.  Sharing the word with believers, group prayer, hearing the message and discussing it in groups, etc., it's a sure way you will stay grounded in your faith.  

The outdoor experience has it's place, but you're not putting your life where it can recieve fellowship, group prayer, counsel, instruction and yes, even rebuke.


----------



## pfharris1965 (Aug 27, 2007)

*...*



fishing technician said:


> I believe God is able to work within the hearts of believers to supply what is needed in any given situation. And when he does it they will be a cheerful giver.


 

In that verse that mentions this whole cheerful giver notion...does it ever offer a definition of what is given?

Geesh...I read through all this talk about all these churches sending notices (which amount to invoices) out to people or putting pressure on them "from the pulpit"  (what a joke) and then the one about how seating is assigned by dollar amount on a W-2 (what next...assigned seating by the designer label on the Sunday "go to meeting" clothes )...

Makes me know that my decision to get my worship time in at DEER CAMP with a much smaller group of people or no group at all is way better than being in a church such as these...heck...even a home based prayer and Bible study group seems to be much more effective than a church on so many levels...


----------



## Spotlite (Aug 27, 2007)

Randy said:


> Ahhh?  Now you know why the church asks what you make when you join?



Now thats a social club..........................


----------



## pfharris1965 (Aug 27, 2007)

*...*



fishing technician said:


> Be careful, I think the treasures for both those churches are posting here.


 
Cool!  Maybe they will get a hint...


----------



## jneil (Aug 27, 2007)

Tithing should between you and God, not between you and the preacher.


----------



## pfharris1965 (Aug 27, 2007)

*...*



jneil said:


> Tithing should between you and God, not between you and the preacher.


 
Exactly...unfortunately at some of the churches I attended in the past, it was difficult at best to tell the difference between the preacher and God......at least in the preacher's mind...

I think God knows your heart and that is all that matters...the rest is simply man-made rules and a lot of speculation.


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> Exactly...unfortunately at some of the churches I attended in the past, it was difficult at best to tell the difference between the preacher and God......at least in the preacher's mind...
> 
> I think God knows your heart and that is all that matters...the rest is simply man-made rules and a lot of speculation.


 
op2:


----------



## Flash (Aug 27, 2007)

Randy said:


> I know of two churchs right here in Griffin that send out notices at the end of the year if you have not fullfilled your 10% tythe.  Not sure what they do if you do not respond to the notices but my guess is most are to concerned they will be outted and send the rest in.  These happen to be the two biggest churchs in the county.  Wonder why?  One even has a private christian school and if you have the money you can send your kids there even if you are not a member.  If you don't have the money your kids can not go there even if you are a member.



 Randy not meaning to call you out, but do you know this to be a fact?? Reason I ask is some times there are stories floating around that are outright lies about churches, pastors etc...        Example: I attend this church and my wife was talking to a girl I went to HS with (good christian girl), always lived in the county, just a few miles from my church. She said "Your pastor doesn't believe in birth control". She had always heard that, my guess is because three families have 6 or more children. But on the street it's fact.    Our pastor even gave a message one evening "Lies about -church's name-".


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

Flash said:


> Randy not meaning to call you out, but do you know this to be a fact?? Reason I ask is some times there are stories floating around that are outright lies about churches, pastors etc... Example: I attend this church and my wife was talking to a girl I went to HS with (good christian girl), always lived in the county, just a few miles from my church. She said "Your pastor doesn't believe in birth control". She had always heard that, my guess is because three families have 6 or more children. But on the street it's fact. Our pastor even gave a message one evening "Lies about -church's name-".


 
Deception is the enemy's number one weapon in diverting nonbelievers and believers alike away from the Word of God.


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

Flash said:


> Randy not meaning to call you out, but do you know this to be a fact?? Reason I ask is some times there are stories floating around that are outright lies about churches, pastors etc...        Example: I attend this church and my wife was talking to a girl I went to HS with (good christian girl), always lived in the county, just a few miles from my church. She said "Your pastor doesn't believe in birth control". She had always heard that, my guess is because three families have 6 or more children. But on the street it's fact.    Our pastor even gave a message one evening "Lies about -church's name-".



I don't mind you calling me out.  Yes I know for a fact.  Did I mention the pastors to those two churches make over 100K a year?


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

Is it a sin for a pastor to make over 100k a year??


----------



## Flash (Aug 27, 2007)

Just curious how you know, did you attend those churches?  If so I might have a sour taste for church as well.  Not all are that way


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

60Grit said:


> Is it a sin for a pastor to make over 100k a year??



It certainly makes it harder for him to "enter the Kingdom."


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

Flash said:


> Just curious how you know, did you attend those churches?  If so I might have a sour taste for church as well.  Not all are that way



I realize not all are that way.  My little church is not that way but they do argue on how to spend our little tything.  We almost lost a whole family over stained glass windows and we did loose the pastor.


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

Randy said:


> It certainly makes it harder for him to "enter the Kingdom."


 
How so???


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

The Bible says it is harder for the rich.  And yes 100K is rich around here.


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

Randy said:


> The Bible says it is harder for the rich. And yes 100K is rich around here.


 
Interesting. 

So I guess Arthur Blank and those like him don't stand a chance, huh??


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

60Grit said:


> Interesting.
> 
> So I guess Arthur Blank and those like him don't stand a chance, huh??



Anything is possible, but they certainly have it harder.  Why do you think that is?


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

Randy said:


> Anything is possible, but they certainly have it harder. Why do you think that is?


 
I think the non believers may have it harder.

Not the believers that are blessed with wealth and live according to Gods council.


----------



## jmharris23 (Aug 27, 2007)

Let's start another thread for bashing preacher's - I bet it'll get almost as many responses as this one.


----------



## pfharris1965 (Aug 27, 2007)

*...*



60Grit said:


> Is it a sin for a pastor to make over 100k a year??


 
Interesting question and I am not sure on that one and it don't matter to me because I know I will not be contributing to it...

If it is a sin, the pastor can always ask forgiveness...right?!?


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> Let's start another thread for bashing preacher's - I bet it'll get almost as many responses as this one.



It's tough being a preacher.  I know I could not handle that job.  If you are right, nobody wants to hear it.  If you're wrong everybody wants to tell it.   That's a tough life.


----------



## pfharris1965 (Aug 27, 2007)

*...*



jmharris23 said:


> Let's start another thread for bashing preacher's - I bet it'll get almost as many responses as this one.


 
Not sure if you are making an reference to my post but in case you are (and it is all good if you are...)...but before we get this ball rolling please read and note that I made reference ONLY to preachers in some of the churches I had attended...my statements were based on my real life observations...and no this ain't a debate <---just so you know 60Grit


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

60Grit said:


> Not the believers that are blessed with wealth and live according to Gods council.



That's the million dollar question.  Who's rich because they are living right and who's rich becasue of other reasons.  It is hard to be rich and live like God wants you too.


----------



## 60Grit (Aug 27, 2007)

Randy said:


> That's the million dollar question. Who's rich because they are living right and who's rich becasue of other reasons. It is hard to be rich and live like God wants you too.


 
How so??


----------



## LLove (Aug 27, 2007)

the church my mom goes to in hiram had a preacher that actually skipped church several times for hunting and fishing trips, but his family was there in the front row. 

and she wonders why i wont go there with her.. ??
 Sorry mom.. call me crazy for being picky about my ethics!


----------



## FishFanatic (Aug 27, 2007)

I was going to say something about pastors making over 100k a year.  But then I thought of Rick Warren.....his family gives away 90% of their annual salary.  I can't remember what that left them with per year, but I do remember it was not much.


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

60Grit said:


> How so??


  Firstly because God says so but think about it for a minute.  Most people who are rich think about money first.  It is also hard to humble and giving when you are rich.


----------



## Randy (Aug 27, 2007)

FishFanatic said:


> I was going to say something about pastors making over 100k a year.  But then I thought of Rick Warren.....his family gives away 90% of their annual salary.  I can't remember what that left them with per year, but I do remember it was not much.



Rick Warren..........now there's a name.


----------



## jmharris23 (Aug 27, 2007)

Its hard to be alive and live like God wants you to


----------



## SBG (Aug 27, 2007)

60Grit said:


> To your point, I know of two churches in the metro area that allow you to sit according to the copy of the W2 you must provide them and the 10% accordingly expected.
> 
> That being said, their congregation is insane for putting up with that.




You boys have got to get out of the city.


----------



## jneil (Aug 27, 2007)

LLove said:


> the church my mom goes to in hiram had a preacher that actually skipped church several times for hunting and fishing trips, but his family was there in the front row.
> 
> and she wonders why i wont go there with her.. ??
> Sorry mom.. call me crazy for being picky about my ethics!



How much time did he spend helping the commuity and church members, other than on Sunday morning?


----------



## SBG (Aug 27, 2007)

Randy said:


> Firstly because God says so but think about it for a minute.  Most people who are rich think about money first.  It is also hard to humble and giving when you are rich.



Most carnal people that are not rich think about money first.


----------



## LLove (Aug 28, 2007)

jneil said:


> How much time did he spend helping the commuity and church members, other than on Sunday morning?



10% .. 20% at the most.  The rest of the time he was hunting, fishing and cheating on his wife. He was quite possibly the biggest faker/liar I've ever seen in my life.


----------



## jneil (Aug 28, 2007)

LLove said:


> 10% .. 20% at the most.  The rest of the time he was hunting, fishing and cheating on his wife. He was quite possibly the biggest faker/liar I've ever seen in my life.



Ahh, A first class scoundrel.


----------

