# shooting discussion....



## robert carter (Jan 15, 2014)

Ok, time for a good discussion on shooting...
   I started shooting a bow near 40 years ago. I learned to shoot split finger and totally instinctive. If I see the arrow I don`t realize it. I feel I shoot purty good split and can roll 40 yard pine cones most of the time.
  About 4-5 years ago I started playing with three under. Mostly because my Buddy Chris Spikes shoots that way and is the best shot I have ever seen in real life. I never would commit and just toyed with it for a year maybe then decided to change. I went to some trouble to set up a bow proper and really took some time on form shooting sorta like Rick Welch teaches. I don`t aim the arrow or point or anything. everything is done the same except I shoot three under instead of split. Not bragging but I am a deadly rascal at around 20 yards and less.At longer distance say 30-50 yards I shoot bad low. shooting split I hit good at that distance but if I snatch a little or get a poor release the shot will be way off. I can snatch a 3 under shot 20 yards or so and will not miss much at all so I believe there is something to the three under being the more forgiving release.
   After building my String follow bow this year I shot it split. I killed turkeys and pigs three under with a different bow and all my deer and a pig split with the string follow. I would be lying if I did`nt tell you I had more confidence shooting three under.Feel more in control.
  I set my bow up for three under today and tore up 3 arrows in a very short time from 10-25 yards. Never missed a shot more than 6" after about three hours of shooting. I faced the truth and realize I shoot better three under no matter what.
   I played with gapping past 25 yards today and after about an hour I was rolling pine cones again out to 40 yards or so even better than before with split. I did not prejudge the range I just looked at the spot and the arrow came up to where it looked right and I hesitated a split second and the shot was gone. I`m very happy with my results for the day.
 Now here is the discussion part. I said all the other so you would know a little about my shooting and know that I`m not a know it all but I do know a little. Not a beginner so to speak.
 Shooters like Rod Jenkins, Larry Yein and Dave Wallace are incredible shots with gap shooting. If they know the range for sure they make very good shots long range. Say you practiced and got that good if you are not already and at a known 50 yards you could shoot 5 " groups. Your going on the hunt of a life time in open country , would you take advantage of your huge shooting skills by taking a rangefinder or would you ride the "Trad" wagon and guess and feel low confidence in a long shot? I`m talking stickbows only here.

   I know my point on is around 28 yards or so shooting 3 under. I honestly don`t know if I want to try to learn gaps after that but it would be nice to make good 45 yard shots.I will continue to shoot as I do unknowing of the arrow at 25 yards or so but have a hunger to get good at farther shots.
  Here is my opinion for me disagree if you want but If I got lucky enough for an elk hunt in open country and my shooting skills by known yardage was excellent enough for ranges longer than I could judge I would invest in a range finder and utilize my skills...which I don`t have now to the max. RC


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## robert carter (Jan 15, 2014)

By the way I`m not advocating taking long shots on deer and such I`m just wanting some open discussion on the thought.RC


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## Barry Duggan (Jan 15, 2014)

I don't disagree with you. The problem, that rolls around in my head, is if the critter is still going to be in the same spot when the arrow arrives.
Although, I must admit, sometimes it might benefit me if the critter moved just a tad before my arrow got there.


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## robert carter (Jan 15, 2014)

I have killed a few deer longer than I want to say on here. They were relaxed and unknowing at the shot and did not even flinch when I released the arrow. I missed a couple as well still with no reaction to the shot.RC


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## SELFBOW (Jan 15, 2014)

I say do what makes you happy...and if having a rangefinder makes you more confident then go for it....

..I tend to disagree w the purist on a lot of things for example Im happy shooting carbon out my selfbow even though I've got some woodies that shoot really well thru her and even two cane ones. Woodies and cane are a lot of work and I hate ruining them.


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## gtfisherman (Jan 15, 2014)

I just switched back in the fall to three under. I feel the release is more consistent with me. 

And had a first time shooter with me today. I had him take his first shots ever with 3 under. His first comment was he felt like he could control the arrow better.


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## Todd Cook (Jan 15, 2014)

Robert, I have always thought a person should shoot however they have the most confidence in. I've never cared much about the "trad wagon", as far as how someone shoots. I shoot 3 under, but shot split for years. I too shoot better 3 under, but have trouble at longer ranges. I don't purposely gap shoot, but I know I do it somewhat because I can't shoot in the dark( like in a coon shoot). I think the longer ranges are harder because past my point on( around 30 yards) my arrow is over the target.

    If a rangefinder helps, I would use it. Years ago people put sights on recurves, and some people should probably hunt with one now. 

    Having said that, a hunter like you will probably go out there and shoot an elk at8 or 10 yards anyway


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## JBranch (Jan 15, 2014)

I think if you have the confidence in the shot, you should take it. If you practiced, know you can, repeatedly, I see no reason not to. It doesn't matter with what weapon. With your experience level, I know that you would know if you could make the shot before taking it, and do everything you needed to prepare beforehand. 

I think you will find that Paul Schafer killed a bull elk at 65 yards once.


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## Al33 (Jan 15, 2014)

Robert, as you may already know, I switched to 3 under about 3 years ago after shooting split for almost 50 years. I have never regretted it except one time when in Missouri right after I switched I shot at a buck in a wide open field from the ground. I had not converted my tabs to a solid tab (without the split) and out of habit shot split finger which resulted in the arrow flying a foot high over his back.

I have never been convinced I shoot instinctively or gap but I suspect both. When shooting long distances I DO reference my arrow point as it relates to my target but when shooting at something moving or flying it has to be purely instinctive.
I have told several folks over the years that the reason they cannot hit well out past 20 yards is because they do not practice the longer shots. Most folks these days don't have much room in their yards to practice longer shots but I believe if more would practice the longer shots they would get a lot better at making them. I love the long shots and as some of you have heard me say regarding them; "There is no shame when ya miss and it's all glory if you hit.".

Having said all of this, I say keep doing what works for you. You have a proven record of being deadly at close ranges and I expect you will be just as deadly at the longer shots if only you practice them. A range finder in an environment you are not familiar with can be a nice advantage, especially when you are looking at animals twice the size you are accustomed to seeing.

No matter how you go about it I am confident you will do well with it.


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## Barry Duggan (Jan 15, 2014)

When we head down to our lease, in Bleckley Co., we pass a high fenced area that contains deer and elk. Range estimation on elk could be a little tricky. Them rascals are large by huge even when on out there a ways. Except for pheasants, I've never been out West hunting. But, I have been several times on business trips, and can say one can see alot further, in detail, compared to around here. Kinda messes with you a little bit. I wouldn't have a problem taking a range finder one bit, providing I could remember to pack it.


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## bam_bam (Jan 15, 2014)

Al33 said:


> Robert, as you may already know, I switched to 3 under about 3 years ago after shooting split for almost 50 years. I have never regretted it except one time when in Missouri right after I switched I shot at a buck in a wide open field from the ground. I had not converted my tabs to a solid tab (without the split) and out of habit shot split finger which resulted in the arrow flying a foot high over his back.



I done the same thing this year in Illinois. I switched to three under back in August and was still using my glove. Needless to say I shot split by habit and sailed the arrow over his back. Needless to say I have a three under tab now and have not had a shot at a deer since . I honestly can say I have never shot better in my life. Like Robert said I think I is more forgiving than split.


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## bam_bam (Jan 15, 2014)

As far as long distance shooting I can't hit squat past 20 to 25, but then I don't practice for long shots.


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## Apex Predator (Jan 16, 2014)

I'm with Barry on this one.  My personal limit on archery shots is 30 yards.  That is with any archery gear.  I can't reliably hit deer and pigs well enough past 20 with my trad gear, so that's my limit.  With a wheel bow it was 30, even though in my prime I could shoot 4" groups at 80yds with it.  I feel that a critter, that doesn't even know you are in the same county, and doesn't hear the shot, has too much time to react before impact.  That half step that's out of my control, can ruin a hunt, and lead to a wounding shot.  Just my opinion.


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## jerry russell (Jan 16, 2014)

I am a three under guy and always have been. I don't see the arrow but to some, it looks as though I am looking down it. I shoot a vertical bow out to 20 yards and will cant at ranges farther than that. I don't know why it helps but it does.

I have hunted some very open ground for species like mule deer, caribou, antelope, etc. I can say from experience that when there is nothing between you to help judge distance such as brush and trees, it is extremely difficult to judge distances. This difficulty is compounded when you have never hunted a particular species and are not used to it's relative size.  I would not hesitate to use a range finder in that or any situation where you need it. We owe it to the animal, in my opinion, to do what ever it takes to be accurate. I have always been an advocate of shooting whatever or however you want to shoot. This is a very personal sport. Everyone should judge only themselves when it comes to what makes you happy.


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## Dennis (Jan 16, 2014)

I too have just started shooting 3 under in the last couple of months and its way to early too tell but my point on is much less than it was and if I figure it out it should make me a better shot at game and that's why I have changed. The only problem is my favourite bow my shrew is  very loud even after I have retillered it. 
Which means I need another bow   I do have a Shelton on the way and it should be much quieter. As far as range finder goes do what ever works for you Robert but my money is on you to still get one in real close.


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## charlie 2 arrow (Jan 16, 2014)

My shooting immediately improved when I switched to 3 under, but I also became more aware of the arrow when I switched and I'm sure that was part of it. I'm starting to play around with gap a little more consciously now and I can see it making a big difference.                             As for using a range finder, I see only advantages. If  you have the shooting skill and the time to range a critter in a hunting situation, do so. It can only help. Suit yourself seems to be the consensus here.


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## SELFBOW (Jan 16, 2014)

Marty had a 20# bow we borrowed yrs ago and I used it  to work on my form. I switched to three under then and have stayed w it unless shooting a more primitive bow w no nock then I must shoot split but I prefer 3 under and I look at point and judge my shot from that. Idk if that's called gap, instinctive or something else


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## robert carter (Jan 16, 2014)

Cool guys. Thanks for the comments. I`m not going out to buy one I was just thinking about it. I know all compound shooters rely on pins set to a yardage and must klnow the distance. a gap shooter that shoots like Rod Jenkins or that style is in the same boat. A compoundr buys a rangefinder without thinking but some traditionalst would rather beat a dead horse and pass on critters they could have killed if they new the distance because they are "better than that". Makes a fella laugh.Howard hill sez he used the split vision and it helped if he missed a critter the first shot so he knew where to hold on the second so in thought he uses a first shot as a range finder. I think the Elk he killed a long ways off he had missed twice before he had it dialed in. Great Discussion guys and as some has said there is nothing wrong with doing it"YOUR" way.RC


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## TGUN (Jan 16, 2014)

I shoot 3 under for the already mentioned benefits, it works for me and almost all pros shoot 3 under so there must be something to it. As far as gap shooting, I have played with "gapping" over the last 8 months after watching videos from Rod Jenkins and Larry Yein. I shoot allot at 50 yards, not because I plan to shoot a deer at 50, but because it forces me to focus on my release and follow through. I would screw up my release and follow through at 15 and 20 yards and it was not too bad (still in the kill zone) so I kind of started accepting it as OK. I screw up my release and follow through at 50 yards and it is never ok. That gives me better practice sessions and more confidence with closer shots. IMHO, more often than not, people are "gap shooting" in some way once their range goes beyond dead on hold point. I think the arrow comes into view more and I just think it is a reference consciously or subconsciously.  I found that MY PROBLEM with trying to really reference my arrow as a "site pin" is I shoot a longbow and it is not center shot. I also anchor farther back, with my thumb behind my ear. These two variables make my arrow tip off to the right too much for me to focus on it as an absolute guide. I do not shoot a re-curve but I assume a center shot bow would put the arrow point over the target. I have come to a happy middle ground. After I pass my dead on (26 yards for me) I do consciously reference my arrow tip much more than before but not absolute. I know what that reference is for 35, 40 and 50 yards. To make this work I have to anchor correctly each time AND I use Rick Welch's nose on the feather reference as another head reference. Obviously the arrows have to be the same length and weight. When I do it right, it works for me. First photo is 26 yard dead on. Second is 35 yard modified gap. Third is 50 yard modified gap. Forth shows my tip point hold (red x) at 50. Last shows what 50 looks like on my range. DISCLAIMER - This looks good but I know what 50 yards on my range looks like and feels like. I have not done enough 50 yard shooting on stumps and random targets to do this consistently (can not afford the lost arrows) but I am showing the examples to show it works, at least for me. If I had a chance to hunt where a 40+ yard shot was a necessity then yes I would practice in various environments (woods, fields) using my modified gap to make the shot and I would use a rangefinder. I am a police sniper and I know how hard it is to judge distances. I do not carry a range finder unless I think I may get to plug a yote at 40 or 50 yards. The hunt you referenced in your post would most likely be on a strange new game animal in strange country. I would make a more confident "modified gap" shot knowing the exact distance. I would also like to know if the distance is out of my comfort zone so I do not make a mistake that would injure an animal. I shoot carbon arrows, with factory made broadheads, wearing gortex, and I most likely drove or flew to the hunt spot. I would not be too hung up on the rangefinder if it was a needed tool of the hunt and part of my practice tools for those extended ranges. Fact is your skill is the skill you developed through choosing your tools, a style of shooting, and practicing. Sticking a rangefinder in the hands of a poor trad shooter is not going to change his skill no more than if  you, Chris, or a few others on this site gave me your bow and let me hunt your stand is going to make me a one inch group shooting, freezer filling machine like you guys.


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## ngabowhunter (Jan 16, 2014)

I've never tried three under, but after reading these posts I'm gonna give it a try. As far as the range finder, I say get one. I almost always have mine with me when I go hunting. I have a hard time judging distance when I get up a tree. Once I get situated I will check the range to several trees  and mentally draw a circle around me at 20 yards. I then feel confident that if anything gets within that circle I can make the shot.


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## Shank (Jan 16, 2014)

I'm completely new to trad bows and shooting split finger felt more natural to me. But as I was not doing very well I tried three under. There was a noticeable improvement in my shots( notice I didnt say groups.) But I only shoot out to 20 -25 yards. As for the range finder, I think known distances are easier when shooting a compound bow but if you shoot instinctively with your trad bow I don't see how knowing the distance will help very much. If I thought it would help me hit my target then I wouldn't hesitate to use one.


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## markland (Jan 16, 2014)

RC I did the same thing a few years ago and posted something about it as well.  I feel like I am much more consistent with my 3-under shooting now and can just drill at close range.  But the biggest reason for it was my lack of consistency past 25yds on longer targets, I was always high-low-or on but never had confidence I could always place my arrow exactly.  So I started working on a gap system for shots past 25yds and with my high anchor and 3-under draw my back of point on distance is right at 30yds and at 40 I hold about 8in high or right on top of the back of a deer sized target.  I did this mostly not to enable me to take the longer shots on game but to know I can if I need to.  Anything 25 or less I just shoot instinctively and do not even think about it, but for longer shots I have to conciously think about aiming or shooting higher and the gap system just takes alot of guess work out of it for me.  
When I practice alot I can shoot almost as good at 30 and 40yds gapping as I do instinctively at 20.
As far as rangefinders go I find myself wishing for 1 every now and then when hunting but I shot 3-D shoots for so long and learned to guess yardage and can pick up a 20yds spot very well and can triangulate from there to get a pretty good mark for 40 and then back to 30.
Practice yardage guessing at 20, 30 and 40yds and work on it all the time, I mean everyday, just when you are walking around pick out distances and pace them of to see how close you are and you will pick it up just as well as you do instinctive shooting, it is something that has to be practiced constantly as well.
Also when picking out yardages go off something irregular in size do not just guess on game sized targets but learn to just distance and not size of the object and that will help alot in the field.  Also practice guessing yardage in open and thick areas and different conditions as everything definitely will look diffrent and especially when shooting thru the windows of a blind, that can really throw off depth perception.  Good luck


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## jerry russell (Jan 16, 2014)

This thread is going to get everyone fired up about going to three under shooting. As a result, I can only imagine how many future threads will be entitled " Why is my bow so loud" and "Help with tuning please", lol.


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## Dennis (Jan 16, 2014)

jerry russell said:


> This thread is going to get everyone fired up about going to three under shooting. As a result, I can only imagine how many future threads will be entitled " Why is my bow so loud" and "Help with tuning please", lol.



OK I'm ready now cause my bow is loud!!!!


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## SELFBOW (Jan 16, 2014)

Mine is silent as a snake and deadly too


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## Bucky T (Jan 16, 2014)

I actually shoot sort of "hybrid".  I shoot split finger, but I shoot instinctive out to say 15yds, but after that,  I start gap shooting.  I can focus on what I want to hit and the point of my arrow at the same time.  I simply raise my arrow point to the target depending on the yardage.

My point on is around 40yds


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## markland (Jan 16, 2014)

Dennis said:


> OK I'm ready now cause my bow is loud!!!!



Yeah there's a little more to it then just shooting 3-under but with many bows it is easy to adjust tune, but some will be louder, that is 1 thing that kept me from shooting 3-under before, with my BW bows they were just too loud shooting 3-under vs split but with my Buffalo I can adjust the tiller to compensate for it and just raised the nock pt. slightly and it is as quiet shooting 3-under as it is split finger.


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## mudcreek (Jan 16, 2014)

Am I correct in assuming my "point on" is the distance to the target when my arrow point is in line with the bulls eye?


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## markland (Jan 16, 2014)

mudcreek said:


> Am I correct in assuming my "point on" is the distance to the target when my arrow point is in line with the bulls eye?



Yes


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## SELFBOW (Jan 16, 2014)

mudcreek said:


> Am I correct in assuming my "point on" is the distance to the target when my arrow point is in line with the bulls eye?



But it varies based on shooting style is what everyone is saying as well.


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## mudcreek (Jan 16, 2014)

Ya'll keep talkin, I'm gonna shut up and listen


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## frankwright (Jan 16, 2014)

I switched to shooting 3 under last year. It did not feel good at all at first but now it feels natural.
I switched because I am cross eye dominant and my left eye would try to take over and I would shoot nice groups but to the left. Getting the arrow closer to my right eye lets it know it is in charge and usually keeps my arrows hitting where I look.
I am not good at shots over 20 yards but I have never practiced it much either. Just this week I moved my target out to 25 yards and in just three short shooting sessions I am putting all the arrows in a 12" area. Not where I want to be but I can tell my brain is starting to figure it out. I normally shoot 15-18 yards in my yard.
I had a beautiful ten point walk out the last week of deer season and stopped in the open, broadside. I shot right under it and later paced it off at 31 yards. I knew it was over my limit when I shot but I tried to shoot a little high but it did not work out.

I have always wondered about gap shooting but would not know where to begin. I liked this video on youtube where this guy can really hit at all the different distances. I don't know if that is something I would ever try and I would need a steep bank back drop to even experiment with it. The video does not allow embedding but search for "The Gap Compromise by jimmyblackmon" especially toward the end where he is shooting the 3D deer I thought was interesting.


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## Hunting 4 Him (Jan 17, 2014)

I tried three under once, it sounded like plucking a bass guitar string and felt awful.  I'll admit though, I have no idea how to make the necessary adjustments to tune for three under, so I didn't try very hard.


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## Blueridge (Jan 17, 2014)

Dadgummit RC, I read this kinda late last night and had to run to the basement to try it out. was up till 1am.  It has possibilities but I can't quite get the hang of it .


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## Bonaire-Dave (Jan 17, 2014)

Ok, so if your doing 3 under are you using a 3 under tab or does it matter if your using a glove or tab? Dave


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## Al33 (Jan 17, 2014)

Just something for anyone considering gap shooting. Let's say your point on is 30 yards with a particular bow and particular arrows. I say "particular" because draw weights and arrow lengths can change everything. If you are shooting a 30" arrow the point on will be different for one longer or shorter even if the same weight. With a longer arrow it will cause you to drop the point a tad for point on which will result in a low hit and vice versa for a shorter one. I have so many bows and different arrows the only way I can get close to hitting consistently by gap shooting is to shoot one bow with the same arrows until my brain can recalculate the gap. Prior to turkey and deer seasons I shoot one bow and arrow combination so as not to mess with the 16mb hard drive in my brain.


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## Barry Duggan (Jan 17, 2014)

Blairsville-Dave said:


> Ok, so if your doing 3 under are you using a 3 under tab or does it matter if your using a glove or tab? Dave



Either is fine.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 18, 2014)

As far as a range finder goes, anything goes. No rules, just preferences. My own is all out traditional. I recently purchased a DAS metal riser. Not keeping it. I just can't shoot a untraditional looking bow. I do realize that as far as how they are made, wood and metal risers, they are basically a traditional  bow, both made from modern tools. But for me, it's the look. Yet, I am shooting carbon arrows that look traditional. So who is anyone to decide who has strayed from "traditional". So, my opinion is, shoot whatever you find enjoyment with. .... As far as shooting long shoots. Wounding animals is irresponsible. I have set my max distance at 20 yards, and I can shoot as good as anybody. Everybody to their own conscience on this one.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 18, 2014)

Many shooters have worked out a system of sighting rather than instinctive. Traditional has been breed with paper shooters to produce a new generation. It's all good. We all have fun. I choose to stay instinctive. The paper shooters style of form, form and form will not work for me since I am tree stand hunter. So I will stick to what I call my "default" release. Meaning that I don't think about form, anchor, aiming, release, follow through,  etc, I just do what comes natural to me. My only intent in the shoot is to focus on the spot I want to hit, all else happens without my mental intent.


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## Jim Thompson (Jan 18, 2014)

I think I am gonna start with three under and go from there.  Drawing the new bow here in the office, that seems to feel more comfortable and my hand, eye and fingers all seem to lock into the same place each time more consistently that way.


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## Barry Duggan (Jan 18, 2014)

I tried 3 under four different times before sticking with it. Swore off of it one time, and even flung my tab thru the woods, down at dpoole's, one day. The first thing I realized, was all my arrows were too stiff. Didn't seem to be that way drawing split, but was obvious when shooting 3 under. It has tightened up my side to side shot placement alot.


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## Dennis (Jan 18, 2014)

Jim Thompson said:


> I think I am gonna start with three under and go from there.  Drawing the new bow here in the office, that seems to feel more comfortable and my hand, eye and fingers all seem to lock into the same place each time more consistently that way.



All of that is very important


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 18, 2014)

I have never tried it. [3 under]I have heard that it makes the bow louder. Is this true or just a tale? I guess it does not make much difference, but custom bows are designed tiller specific for 3 under or split according to the order. Maybe a bowyer can tell us if this is important?


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## Skunkhound (Jan 18, 2014)

I started off shooting split with a glove because that's how I learned as a kid. I tried 3 under every now and then, but kept going back to split. About a year ago I decided to give 3 under another shot after noticing that most of the better shooters on the 3d range were using it, and the theory that it puts the arrow closer to the eye made a lot of sense. It really didn't take a whole lot of conscious effort to make the switch, and once I got the hang of it, my accuracy definitely improved. I was also dead set against using a tab. I guess I just always associated them with target shooting, and I liked that once my glove was on, I could still use my hand, and didn't have to worry about losing a little tab. Once again, I noticed that a lot of the better shooters were using tabs, so I decided to give it a shot. One thing I noticed immediately, is that I could really get a good deep hook without the stitching of the glove tips getting in the way. The finger stalls on every glove I've tried end right where I like to put the string, and I started noticing that my release was often the culprit for a bad shot. 
 I'm still not a great shot, but I'm better, and more consistent than I was. As far as the bow being louder, if its not tillered for three under, it can be louder, and technically should be, but I think some bows are more forgiving than others. My first Black Widow was tillered split, and every trick in the book would only quiet it so much. I started shooting split again, just because it cut the noise by more than half. My second Widow was tillered 3 under, and was much quieter, but probably still a little louder than the average recurve. Heavy arrows and double silencers tamed it some, but if you didn't get a clean release, it sounded like a compound. Monday night my Shrew arrived in the mail, and even with carbon in the limbs, and shooting 3 under, it's not whisper quiet, but considering what I was used to, it might as well be. 
 I'm getting ready to put a new string on it, and I'd recently read that placing the silencers at different points on the string cancels out harmonic vibrations. So, by putting the top one at 1/4 the actual string length, and the lower one at 1/3, you cancel out all possible harmonic vibration. I'm curious to see how it works out. I'll be sure to post results. 
 Range finders? If you're gonna shoot past 25 yds, it can only help I guess. Hunting out west with the possibility of long range shot opportunities is just a pipe dream for now, so I'll just stay focused on my intimate 10-15 yd shots, and cross that bridge when I have to.


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## OconeeDan (Jan 18, 2014)

I am not a real good shot but I decided to try 3 under today.  This is only at around 12 yds , I was shooting for the green dot.  So you can see my group was low.  
But it's been a while since I destroyed an arrow!
Dan


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## robert carter (Jan 18, 2014)

Great  discussion Guys. Good shot Dan.

  When it comes to being traditional..Saxton Pope and Art Young both shot 3 under and gapped. ever heard their names before?Maurice and Will Thompson did too.RC


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## bam_bam (Jan 18, 2014)

OconeeDan said:


> I am not a real good shot but I decided to try 3 under today.  This is only at around 12 yds , I was shooting for the green dot.  So you can see my group was low.
> But it's been a while since I destroyed an arrow!
> Dan




Good shooting, I also was low when starting but didnt take long for my brain to adjust to the new shooting style. I believe that why when you go back to split you shoot a mile high to start with.


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## TGUN (Jan 18, 2014)

Ok, after obsessing over this I switched my anchor point so my arrow tip is directly above/below my point of impact on  the target (I know- duh, right?). I just guess I never realized how much to the right I had to hold until I did those photos, although I put that red x too high and right but still, changing what I needed to get the tip above the impact point helped the consistency of my gap shooting at longer ranges. Didn't get a bit of work done over the last two days but by gosh I'm shooting better.


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## Stump Shooter (Jan 20, 2014)

Wish I could have seen this post earlier. I have found three under is more forgiving than split. It was more apparent to me when I started practicing with the larger cut diameter broad heads. I am able to get way more consistent flight when shooting three under and I think this is because of the more forgiving release. I am also more accurate as many others here have stated and this is most likely because of the more forgiving release. I flip back and forth because for reasons unknown, maybe I have mental issues. 
I would say definitely use the range finder if you shoot farther distance. I shoot both traditional and compound and 5 yards past 25 yards can be the difference between a good or bad hit. I no longer attempt the longer shots because I have had some less desirable hits, and have come to realize I was very lucky on the long shots.


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## mudcreek (Jan 20, 2014)

I wonder if anyone has ever posted a trajectory chart of arrows.  For instance, 40 lb bow, 28 inch draw length, 600 grain arrow.  Then again, there may be too many variables.  However, I can't help but think maybe the reason I shoot so low after 25 yds or so is that the trajectory just falls off the table.
I realize I can accomodate the trajectory by practice, (maybe) but I am curious about the arrow drop.


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## AnAvidArcher (Jan 20, 2014)

Personally, I noticed a huge change in my accuracy and consistency, especially at longer ranges, when shooting to 3 under from split finger. 

When I first start shooting, I shot split finger, mostly because my serving was too thin and I had no nocking point, so shooting 3 under would cause the arrow to fall. In addition, I also felt that split finger looked more traditional and that I didn't want to look like a silly Olympic archer shooting three under and string walking.

Some time later while shooting around 40 yards from the target, I decided to give it a shot just to see what would happen. Lo and behold my arrow went exactly where I was looking. So I did it again, to the same effect. The problem with split finger was that I was always much too high or much too low, which wasn't as noticeable at close ranges due to the arc of the arrow, but past 25 yards or so it was incredibly prevalent. 




To be honest, I really believe 3 under to be a superior draw than split finger. All of the best archers I know use 3 under, and I have noticed my own personal improvements with that switch. I see no definitive advantages in split finger vs 3 under. That being said, I believe shooting with a thumb ring can produce better results than 3 under. 


I've messed around with a thumb ring some, and I've found that A) I can shoot a much, much shorter bow without string pinch because I'm using only my thumb vs 3 fingers, B) I get a much smoother release; once I put on a feather tracer on a bare shaft and shot it about 50 yards to see the difference between 3 under and the thumb ring, and it was astounding I really wish I had a video of it. While it's possible to get a great release with three under, it is EASIER to do so with a thumb ring as you flick your thumb out, much like you would if you were flipping a coin. Not only that but your arrows are faster due to less friction on release and its possible to get a longer draw length with a thumb ring. 

That being said, I still prefer 3 under and have found it to give me the most consistent and accurate shooting.


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## Fatboy (Jan 21, 2014)

I shot what could've been considered pretty good for a long time. Nowadays I don't shoot very good. Physical problems and poorer eyesight are the reasons I guess. Not really sure what it is. I do know that if I dedicate my shooting to 3 under now that I do shoot better. However the difference in bow shoulder and string elbow height has caused my shoulders to hurt more.

If I were a beginner I would hope that someone would start me on the 3 under hold from the get go.I think it lends itself to a more deliberate shot and not so much a poke and hope sort of thing. Very hard to get small gaps with correct alignment shooting split.IMHO


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## gregg dudley (Jan 21, 2014)

I don't have much experience hunting out west, but what little I do have leads me to concur wight he statements above as they relate to big animals in wide open spaces.  The distances are certainly hard to judge.  I shot under a monster mule deer in Colorado because I thought the buck was significantly closer that he actually was.  I can still see those feathers passing right under the chest.  That is the one shot that haunts me!


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## Dennis (Jan 29, 2014)

Ttt


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## Gordief (Jan 29, 2014)

long-ago & far far away... when G.W. & I started in the 3-D game,
the word 'gap" was looked down on. But for me it is the better
aiming method.
i have never shot 3 under, but can see some advantages. if i was a 
young man i would give it a try.


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## gurn (Jan 30, 2014)

Why do yall think 3 under is better. Is it possible that it brings the arrow up closer to your eye so like sightin down the arrow gives better and more consistence  aim.


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## Dennis (Jan 30, 2014)

gurn said:


> Why do yall think 3 under is better. Is it possible that it brings the arrow up closer to your eye so like sightin down the arrow gives better and more consistence  aim.


I think that is the idea


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## cloudbaseracer (Oct 31, 2014)

Can you guys tell me what you see when you shoot three under gap?

I ask because I recently switched to 3 under and change my anchor to my ring finger (right hand though) in the corner of my mouth.  The switch from 3 under and this move up in anchor put the arrow right under my eye which is really good.

My issue is that sometimes I do not see the arrow clearly.  It is very fuzzy with no distinction. Sometimes it is perfect and other timesI am like "what is going on and what am I looking at"? I shoot with both eyes open and maybe that is part of the problem.  I find that my yardage is on very consistently but my windage can change.  I think it has to do with perhaps not tilting my head over the arrow? I don't want to shoot with the left eye closed or even blink the left as a buddy has instructed me but I also want to get a clear picture.

So, have you guys seen any graphics that show what the arrow should look like?  I am not talking about the trajectory - I understand that.  I mean the sight picture?  Do you guys gt a good focus?

Also, I find that the gap method although superior for accuracy in good light does not work well at all when it is dusk as I cannot see the arrow. These are times when I would have had no issue before as I didn't need to see the arrow.  It really makes the prime hunting time less useable.  How do you guys overcome this?

Thanks,
James


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## markland (Oct 31, 2014)

Gap is useless in low light situations, same as using a sight, but for me as I only use gap for shooting around 30yds and over I would not be taking longer shots under those conditions anyway.
I have a high 3-under anchor and my index finger is on my cheekbone so my back of point on distance is right at 30yds which is very convenient for me.  I just sight down the arrow and hold the back of the point on what I want to hit and I can shoot as good at 30 as I can instinctively at 20yds with this method.
40yds is just a on top of the back of a normal 3-d target.
I still shoot instictively up to and a little over 20yds, anything past that I would gap for.
With a lower anchor point you will have a longer range point on distance so at close range your point will be under the target and you will have to learn what distance to hold under to hit at those closer ranges, but 1st learn you point on distance then work back from there.


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## Poynor (Oct 31, 2014)

RC-- Funny you brought this up. After that last missed pig. I decided  I had to do something or just keep missing.  I put my long bow up and got out my ILF recurve bow so I would have max adjustments and set it up to 40 pds and started tuning. I shoot 7 inches high at 20 yards. I naturally use a 6 o'clock hold. So when I float the arrow below where I want to  hit I get within 4 inches using the same sight picture from 25-15 yards.  Anything past 25 yards I adjust  to my point on and let the arrows fall in. I also played with string walking and I got a crawl set for a point on of 15 yards. Put arrow right on where I want to hit and let it go.  I like it so far. Time will tell.


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 31, 2014)

After deer season I might play with 3 under. I sure dont want to go changing things in the middle of season.


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## Munkywrench (Nov 1, 2014)

I shoot 3 under with middle finger in corner of mouth. I actually try not to see the arrow. When I pay attention to it Im not focusing on my spot.
Not tilting your head is a huge issue for me. My arrows will be good yardage wise but to the left or right


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## Slasher (Nov 5, 2014)

I got the rick welch videos for B day a few years back...

I set my arrow up like he teaches to have the fletching touch my nose... 

I really like the consistent release 3 under gives me... My lighter weight bows would have me torquing or plucking the string at times.. and that arrow would go way off!!!


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## cloudbaseracer (Nov 9, 2014)

Do most of you guys close one eye to better focus on the arrow?  Or do you not find it is needed?


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## dm/wolfskin (Nov 9, 2014)

Both eyes open for me.


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## beaulesye10 (Nov 10, 2014)

Both Eyes Open for me.


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## tradhunter98 (Nov 10, 2014)

I close both of mine.. I hit better that way!


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