# OSAS and election



## JB0704

Just curious (and for fun )....

If God elects folks, can/does he revoke such election?  Is there an example of such?

Judas comes to mind, but he wouldn't really be under the New covenant.  There are people who are punished under the new covenant for sins, such as Annanias and Saphira, but I am not so sure that would be an example of an election being revoked.

I guess osas is irrelvant if there is an election, but it would make sense that such an election could be revoked.


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## Ronnie T

1Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


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## mtnwoman

IMHO Judas was chosen/elected to do his dirty deed.  I don't know if you follow the path that God has chosen for you, that you are punished....I mean eternally punished. Judas' case is a tricky one for sure.

OSAS was my experience, so I believe it to be true. I don't believe that anyone who belongs to Him can be snatched out of His hand. So whether you were elected/called upon for a special mission, ie prophet, whale bait, build an ark or whether you accepted the gift of salvation that you can never be snatched back by satan, nor unelected by God...that is if you ever belonged to God in the first place.

Could you sin enough to revoke your salvation, I suppose you could, I dunno...I keep going back to where He said nothing can snatch you out of His hand.


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## Ronnie T

I find the scripture that Annie references to be very comforting but I don't believe that scripture intended to nullify the many scriptures that are much more precise.  Such as 2Peter 1:10 above.


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## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> If God elects folks, can/does he revoke such election?


God is immutable. He can not change. Christ can not fail. If one for who he came to save, perishes, He failed.


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> God is immutable. He can not change. Christ can not fail. If one for who he came to save, perishes, He failed.



That has to be one of the most ridiculous religious answers I've ever read.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> That has to be one of the most ridiculous religious answers I've ever read.


I'm not surprised.


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## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> God is immutable. He can not change. Christ can not fail. If one for who he came to save, perishes, He failed.



Gem, I appreciate your response.  You are one of the more vocal ones as far as your beliefs on this subject, and your insight is appreciated.

But if God is sovereign, can he determine to change his course....for example, can he decide Annanias and Saphira (A & S from here) no longer are part of the body?  Their demise is an example for future generations to see what happens when we lie......but, were they ever elected?

Does the loss of such challenge God's sovereignty if he chooses to revoke it?


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## JB0704

mtnwoman said:


> IMHO Judas was chosen/elected to do his dirty deed.  I don't know if you follow the path that God has chosen for you, that you are punished....I mean eternally punished. Judas' case is a tricky one for sure.



Thanks for recognizing that.  Judas confuses me a lot relevant to this topic.  For one, he was "chosen" as a disciple.....elected.  But, he was also "chosen" to be the betrayer......un-elected as I think he is one of the only people in the Bible who are clearly condemned.

Was he born to die?



mtnwoman said:


> OSAS was my experience, so I believe it to be true. I don't believe that anyone who belongs to Him can be snatched out of His hand. So whether you were elected/called upon for a special mission, ie prophet, whale bait, build an ark or whether you accepted the gift of salvation that you can never be snatched back by satan, nor unelected by God...that is if you ever belonged to God in the first place.



And that's the confusion.  If we are chosen for a purpose, can that purpose be revoked by a sovereign God?  

As Ronnie pointed out, the Bible is clear that we are to make sure of our election.  Does that indicate revokeability of the fact?


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## JB0704

Ronnie T said:


> 1Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
> 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
> 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
> 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
> 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
> 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall



And these are the scriptures which add ambiguity to the subject.  "Election" seems to invoke an involuntary act, or, it is a statement of being based on the act.

But, "making sure of your election" seems to indicate that one might change status.


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## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Gem, I appreciate your response.  You are one of the more vocal ones as far as your beliefs on this subject, and your insight is appreciated.
> 
> But if God is sovereign, can he determine to change his course....for example, can he decide Annanias and Saphira (A & S from here) no longer are part of the body?  Their demise is an example for future generations to see what happens when we lie......but, were they ever elected?



They were never elect. Election is eternal. Apostates are a warning to all who profess faith in Christ but do not know Christ.


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## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> They were never elect. Election is eternal. Apostates are a warning to all who profess faith in Christ but do not know Christ.



I grew up under osas doctrine, but was also taught free will.  Osas will indicate that salvation is eternal, free will teaches that we choose it.

But, if salvation (election) is an act of God, is there any Biblical reference telling us he will not revoke it?

I know in the OT God's mind was changed on a few subjects.  That is another reason why I brought this up.  If election is God's will imposed on man, he would then be sovereign to revoke the same, wouldn't he?


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## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> But, if salvation (election) is an act of God, is there any Biblical reference telling us he will not revoke it?


It is a covenant of Grace and can not be broken. 
Jeremiah 31:3, 31-34, 32:38-40



JB0704 said:


> If election is God's will imposed on man, he would then be sovereign to revoke the same, wouldn't he?


God chose the people to whom he would be gracious, before the world began. These are the objects of His love(vessels of mercy). They were created vessels of mercy, not vessels of wrath. One can never be the other.


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> It is a covenant of Grace and can not be broken.
> Jeremiah 31:3, 31-34, 32:38-40
> 
> 
> God chose the people to whom he would be gracious, before the world began. These are the objects of His love(vessels of mercy). They were created vessels of mercy, not vessels of wrath. One can never be the other.



IMHO those scriptures are regarding Israel, God's chosen. We are not part of that covenant...at least I am not. We were grafted into the vine which is Jesus Christ, those of us who do not fit the bill of the covenant of Israel.  Israel was chosen by God, even knowing they would reject Jesus. He opened the door for us if we accepted Christ, those of us who do not accept Christ will perish...that's what the New Convenant or Testament says.


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## Ronnie T

JB0704 said:


> Gem, I appreciate your response.  You are one of the more vocal ones as far as your beliefs on this subject, and your insight is appreciated.
> 
> But if God is sovereign, can he determine to change his course....for example, can he decide Annanias and Saphira (A & S from here) no longer are part of the body?  Their demise is an example for future generations to see what happens when we lie......but, were they ever elected?
> 
> Does the loss of such challenge God's sovereignty if he chooses to revoke it?





gemcgrew said:


> They were never elect. Election is eternal. Apostates are a warning to all who profess faith in Christ but do not know Christ.



gemcgrew, please know that my first response to your comment was not meant to be a personal affront to you and your belief.  It was to the words of the statement.

"The Called"  "The Elect" is a misunderstood and misused understanding.
Salvation has always depended upon personal faith in God through Jesus Christ.  Rather, Israel was God's elect nation..... in their failure, God's elect are now those who believe in Jesus as the Christ.

"God cannot be tempted, and God does not tempt."  Our temptations are not of God's power or choosing.

Evil originates not from God but from the fallen creature. 

God can place names into the book of life, and God has the option of removing names from the book of life.....
what am I saying, God has all options!


2 Corinthians 13:5-7

New International Version (NIV)


5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? 6 And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test. 7 Now we pray to God that you will not do anything wrong—not so that people will see that we have stood the test but so that you will do what is right even though we may seem to have failed.

Salvation comes from God, but God's grace must be met by our personal, individual faith.


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## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> IMHO those scriptures are regarding Israel, God's chosen. We are not part of that covenant...at least I am not. We were grafted into the vine which is Jesus Christ, those of us who do not fit the bill of the covenant of Israel.  Israel was chosen by God, even knowing they would reject Jesus. He opened the door for us if we accepted Christ, those of us who do not accept Christ will perish...that's what the New Convenant or Testament says.



Yes.


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## mtnwoman

JB0704 said:


> I grew up under osas doctrine, but was also taught free will.  Osas will indicate that salvation is eternal, free will teaches that we choose it.



I agree.


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## Ronnie T

Under the Law of Moses, a Jewish child was born into the covenant and was later taught God’s will. 
In the new covenant it is different. “They shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest” (Heb. 8:11). 
In the New Covenant, people first learn of God’s will and then decide to enter into a redeemed, covenant relationship with God. 

A covenant is an agreement between two parties.
Covenant:  an agreement, usually formal, between two or more persons to do or not do something specified. 

Part of that covenant is a freedom from God to do good or evil in and of ourselves.  God wishes for us to use that freedom to become bondslaves to Him............
1Peter 2:16 Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. 17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> I find the scripture that Annie references to be very comforting but I don't believe that scripture intended to nullify the many scriptures that are much more precise.  Such as 2Peter 1:10 above.



I agree. There are many other verses.

I guess I like the one about nothing can snatch you out of His hand because it fits me so personally. Not even sin (satan) snatched me away.  I was lost but He always knew where I was when He came and snatched me back....but for a testimony, was I let to run with the wicked.


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Under the Law of Moses, a Jewish child was born into the covenant and was later taught God’s will.
> In the new covenant it is different. “They shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest” (Heb. 8:11).
> In the New Covenant, people first learn of God’s will and then decide to enter into a redeemed, covenant relationship with God.
> 
> A covenant is an agreement between two parties.
> Covenant:  an agreement, usually formal, between two or more persons to do or not do something specified.
> 
> Part of that covenant is a freedom from God to do good or evil in and of ourselves.  God wishes for us to use that freedom to become bondslaves to Him............
> 1Peter 2:16 Act as free men, and do not use your freedom as a covering for evil, but use it as bondslaves of God. 17 Honor all people, love the brotherhood, fear God, honor the king.



Awesome, I love it!


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## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> I agree. There are many other verses.
> 
> I guess I like the one about nothing can snatch you out of His hand because it fits me so personally. Not even sin (satan) snatched me away.  I was lost but He always knew where I was when He came and snatched me back....but for a testimony, was I let to run with the wicked.



I agree.  And I suspect you and I will agree on something....  that now in life there is nothing that's gonna cause a separation between me and the One who has brought so much into my life.


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## Artfuldodger

JB0704 said:


> I guess osas is irrelvant if there is an election, but it would make sense that such an election could be revoked.



I'm pretty sure most people that believe in election also believe in pre-destination. So there is nothing you or I do that wasn't already planned or known by God to happen. God controls everything so yes osas would be irrelevant.


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## JB0704

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm pretty sure most people that believe in election also believe in pre-destination. So there is nothing you or I do that wasn't already planned or known by God to happen. God controls everything so yes osas would be irrelevant.



I agree.....but then we have to get into some OT stuff where God seems to change his mind based on actions of men.


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## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> God chose the people to whom he would be gracious, before the world began. These are the objects of His love(vessels of mercy). They were created vessels of mercy, not vessels of wrath. One can never be the other.



That makes sense.  But, as I stated in my previous post, does God's sovereignty allow for him to change his mind?  One example I can think of is Ninevah.  I am not sure that story is literal, but I think it is a good example God changing his decision based on men's actions.


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## mtnwoman

JB0704 said:


> That makes sense.  But, as I stated in my previous post, does God's sovereignty allow for him to change his mind?  One example I can think of is Ninevah.  I am not sure that story is literal, but I think it is a good example God changing his decision based on men's actions.



That's why I believe in free will. God gives us a choice....even though I believe that He knows beforehand what we will choose, He gives us everything...His Son Jesus...and if that doesn't persuade us then...oh well. 
If we were always saved and chosen, then there would be no need for a saviour.  I think more highly of the cross than to think I was prechosen anyway.


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> I agree.  And I suspect you and I will agree on something....  that now in life there is nothing that's gonna cause a separation between me and the One who has brought so much into my life.



Amen!


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> gemcgrew, please know that my first response to your comment was not meant to be a personal affront to you and your belief.


Ronnie, your comment stands as is and does not cause me to waver. 


Ronnie T said:


> Salvation has always depended upon personal faith in God through Jesus Christ.


Faith is a gift of God and not something men will do. My faith in Christ is the result of the faith of Christ.


Ronnie T said:


> Rather, Israel was God's elect nation..... in their failure, God's elect are now those who believe in Jesus as the Christ.


The Israel of God is the whole of God's elect, Jew and Gentile. That is why Paul said "all Israel shall be saved".


Ronnie T said:


> "God cannot be tempted, and God does not tempt."  Our temptations are not of God's power or choosing.


Who you refer to as God and who I refer to as God are not the same. God is all power and He does whatsoever He pleases. All things are of God.


Ronnie T said:


> Evil originates not from God but from the fallen creature.


In the beginning God...


Ronnie T said:


> God can place names into the book of life, and God has the option of removing names from the book of life.....
> what am I saying, God has all options!


Those whose names were written in the book of life, for whom Christ died, cannot perish.


Ronnie T said:


> Salvation comes from God, but God's grace must be met by our personal, individual faith.


No. Salvation is of the Lord, in its entirety. Faith is a gift.


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## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> That makes sense.  But, as I stated in my previous post, does God's sovereignty allow for him to change his mind?  One example I can think of is Ninevah.  I am not sure that story is literal, but I think it is a good example God changing his decision based on men's actions.


 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isaiah 46:9,10)


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> No. Salvation is of the Lord, in its entirety. Faith is a gift.



I agree it is a gift...a gift given but not without acceptance.

Do you really believe that God forces us to accept it by His preselection?


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> The Israel of God is the whole of God's elect, Jew and Gentile. That is why Paul said "all Israel shall be saved".



Where in scripture does it say that Jews and the Gentiles are the same? We gentiles were grafted into the vine. 

So all of Israel will be saved even if they don't believe that Christ is their Saviour? Doesn't the Bible say they (the Jews) are temporarily blinded to that fact, so we (the gentiles) could be grafted in?


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## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> I agree it is a gift...a gift given but not without acceptance.


"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?"(1 Corinthians 4:7)


mtnwoman said:


> Do you really believe that God forces us to accept it by His preselection?


He chose us before the foundation of the world. Our names were written in the Lamb's book of Life before the foundation of the world. The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


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## Ronnie T

I know you stand strong in your conviction, but your conviction means that you have to speedily pass over most all of the scriptural references above, because they interfere with what you say.

I fear you are dedicated to the teaching of a man rather than the teachings of Jesus and the apostles.

Anyway, I thought you were in bed already.  
Now I go.


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## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isaiah 46:9,10)



I do understand the sovereignty of God, so please don't think I am debating that.  I'm net really debating anything in this thread as I am not really "set" on one doctrine as far as osas goes. 

But, to clarify, your position is that God's mind did not change in Ninevah?  Does that open the door to more questions relevant to him misleading Jonah?



> Jonah 3: 2 "Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you." 3 Jonah obeyed the word of the LORD and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very important city--a visit required three days. 4 On the first day, Jonah started into the city. He proclaimed: "Forty more days and Nineveh will be overturned."





> Jonah 3:10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he had compassion and did not bring upon them the destruction he had threatened.



A couple things, first, I tend to believe this story is metaphorical, and that would make sense under your perspective. Second, there is a clear changing of position on God's part.  

Do you see how that is confusing?


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## rjcruiser

gemcgrew said:


> God is immutable. He can not change. Christ can not fail. If one for who he came to save, perishes, He failed.



Amen



Ronnie T said:


> That has to be one of the most ridiculous religious answers I've ever read.



Wow.




I fear nothing good can come of this thread.  Both these items have been discussed/debated/beaten to a pulp.

Honestly JB...I think you would profit from doing a search on the word "Predestination, predestined" etc etc in your Bible.  Also, I think HuntinFool has posted several times about the two "wills of God."  I think you'd do well to re-read those posts.

How someone can read the Bible....study it, and still believe in free will is beyond me.


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## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> I fear nothing good can come of this thread.  Both these items have been discussed/debated/beaten to a pulp.



Christians talking, discussing, comparing thoughts.....as long as folks keep emotions out, I feel a lot of good can come of it.  Heck, I went back and read the book of Jonah last night.  Gem and Ronnie have tossed a good bit of scripture out there.  There are a lot of good things that come of these threads, RJ, you just gotta look deeper than the posts themselves 



rjcruiser said:


> Honestly JB...I think you would profit from doing a search on the word "Predestination, predestined" etc etc in your Bible.  Also, I think HuntinFool has posted several times about the two "wills of God."  I think you'd do well to re-read those posts.



Never read HF's "two wills" stuff.  Would prefer it being posted in here.  The results of the search will always be subject to perspective and interpretation.

Take this board, we have preachers in here with the same Bible that have completely opposite perspectives on osas.

Often, what is being said and what is being read are two different things which vary according to perspective.




rjcruiser said:


> How someone can read the Bible....study it, and still believe in free will is beyond me.



Did God lie to the people of Ninevah?


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## hummerpoo

JB0704 said:


> Often, what is being said and what is being read are two different things which vary according to perspective.



JB, just a thought; every time you see these two perspectives, evaluate them with regard to which elevates God more, and which elevates man more.  Then choose God.   I think that over time a pattern of interpretation will develop.


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## JB0704

hummerpoo said:


> JB, just a thought; every time you see these two perspectives, evaluate them with regard to which elevates God more, and which elevates man more.  Then choose God.   I think that over time a pattern of interpretation will develop.



Hmmmm.....that is actually a very good thought, HP.  Thanks for that.


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## Jeffriesw

JB0704 said:


> Just curious (and for fun )....
> 
> If God elects folks, can/does he revoke such election?  Is there an example of such?
> 
> Judas comes to mind, but he wouldn't really be under the New covenant.  There are people who are punished under the new covenant for sins, such as Annanias and Saphira, but I am not so sure that would be an example of an election being revoked.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess osas is irrelvant if there is an election, but it would make sense that such an election could be revoked.



Judas did exactly what he was born to do. *John 17:12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.[/COLOR]*

JB, the OSAS doctrine is greatly misunderstood and distorted view of the doctrine of the Perseverance of the saints. See the antinomian view below as opposed to the reformed view.





 PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS



A.      Arminian Position: All who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation.  Sinners can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, by falling into a state of serious sin, etc. 



B.      Antinomian Position: (Also known as "Easy Believism")  All who make a profession of faith are eternally secure, whether or not they keep up their faith. 



C.      Reformed Position: All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and regenerated by the Holy Spirit are eternally saved.  They are kept in Faith by the Power of Almighty God and therefore continue to persevere in faith. 



D.      Scriptural Support for the Reformed Position:



1.       The person who truly believes in Jesus Christ HAS new Life that is ETERNAL.

                                                Jn.3:16 - Jn.3:16 (NKJ)

16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

                                                Jn.3:36 - Jn.3:36 (NKJ)

36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

                                                Jn.5:24 - Jn.5:24 (NKJ)

24 "  Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

                                                Jn.6:47 - Jn.6:47 (NKJ)

                                47 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

                                                Jn.6:51 - Jn.6:51 (NKJ)

51 "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world."

                                                Jn.11.25 - Jn.11.25 (NKJ)

25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.

                                                1Jn.5:13 - 1Jn.5:13 (NKJ)

13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

                                                1Peter.1:23 - 1Peter.1:23 (NKJ)

23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,



2.        All those who come to genuine saving faith in Christ are kept secure in him for eternity by the Power of God.

John.6:35 - John.6:40 (NKJ)

35 And Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.36 "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

                                                Jn.10:27 - Jn.10:30 (NKJ)

27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.30 "I and My Father are one."

                                                Jn.17:11 - Jn.17:12 (NKJ)

11 "Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

                                                Jn.17:15 - Jn.17:15 (NKJ)

15 "I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one.

                                                Rom.8:29 - Rom.8:30 (NKJ)

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

                                                Rom.8:35 - Rom.8:39 (NKJ)

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come,39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

                                                1Cor.1:8 - 1Cor.1:8 (NKJ)

8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

                                                Eph.1:5 - Eph.1:5 (NKJ)

5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,

                                                Eph.1:13 - Eph.1:14 (NKJ)

13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

                                                Eph.4:30 - Eph.4:30 (NKJ)

30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

                                                Phil.1:6 - Phil.1:6 (NKJ)

6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

                                                1Peter.1:3 - 1Peter.1:5 (NKJ)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



3.       True believers WILL persevere to the end in faith and obedience by the Power of the Holy Spirit.

                                                Jn.14:21 - Jn.14:21 (NKJ)

21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him."

                                                Jn.15:1 - Jn.15:11 (NKJ)

1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.8 "By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.9 "As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love.10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.11 "These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full.

                                                Eph.2:10 - Eph.2:10 (NKJ)

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

                                                1Peter.5:10 - 1Peter.5:10 (NKJ)

10 But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.

                                                2Peter.1:10 - 2Peter.1:10 (NKJ)

10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;







                                                Phil.2:12 - Phil.2:13 (NKJ)

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

                                                Phil.3:12 - Phil.3:15 (NKJ)

12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.15 Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.

                                                1Jn.3:9 - 1Jn.3:9 (NKJ)

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

                                                1Jn.5:18 - 1Jn.5:18 (NKJ)

18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

                                                Heb.5:11 - Heb.6:12 (NKJ)

11 of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food.13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe.14 But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.3 And this we will do if God permits.4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we speak in this manner.10 For God is not unjust to forget your work and labor of love which you have shown toward His name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.11 And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence to the full assurance of hope until the end,12 that you do not become sluggish, but imitate those who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

                                                1Jn.2:19 - 1Jn.2:19 (NKJ)

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

                                                1Jn.2:25 - 1Jn.2:25 (NKJ)

25 And this is the promise that He has promised us: eternal life.





I would also commend to you for reading, a book called "Chosen by God" by RC Sproul

http://www.ligonier.org/store/chosen-by-god-paperback/

If for some reason, you can't get your hands on one. PM me your name and address and I will be glad to send you one.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I'm glad God planned for me to have grits & eggs for breakfast. It was delicious. My plan was to have cereal. I don't know why God planned for us to have this debate. What could he profit from us having this debate?


----------



## JB0704

Swamp runner, it was the "p" in "tulip" I am specifically addressing here, but am avoiding a "Calvinist" discussion because many of the predes folks do not claim calvinism.  That being said, if we look at the reformed position above, the first 8 scriptures you listed involve a positive act from the believer.  Phil 2:12-13 alos seems to indicate a similar thing.

This seems to contrast the concept of predestination......which lead me to the question as to whether or not election was revokeable.

.....then there's Ninevah.

I am still reading through your post and pondering, thanks for the list, and the book recomendation....I will find it and read it.


----------



## JB0704

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm glad God planned for me to have grits & eggs for breakfast. It was delicious. My plan was to have cereal. I don't know why God planned for us to have this debate. What could he profit from us having this debate?





No picking fights in this thread


----------



## Artfuldodger

Verses against OSAS:
Matt 24:10-13
10	At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11	and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12	Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13	but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.
(NIV)
Ezek 18:23-28
23	Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24	"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
25	"Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
26	If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die.
27	But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life.
28	Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die.
Matt 6:14-15
14	"For if you forgive men for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.
15	"But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Matt 25:34-46
34	"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35	'For I was hungry, and you gave Me {something} to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36	naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
37	"Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink?
38	'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39	'And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40	"And the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, {even} the least {of them,} you did it to Me.'
41	"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42	for I was hungry, and you gave Me {nothing} to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43	I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44	"Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45	"Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46	"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

 I don't understand how God can tell us to do this or don't do that. Then punish or reward us, if it was his doings. What was his point?


----------



## Jeffriesw

Artfuldodger;7333531[COLOR="Red" said:
			
		

> ]I'm glad God planned for me to have grits & eggs for breakfast[/COLOR]. It was delicious. My plan was to have cereal. I don't know why God planned for us to have this debate. What could he profit from us having this debate?



Well, I wish I would have been also, that piece of toast I ate at 5:00 am this morning was pretty lame


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## Jeffriesw

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm glad God planned for me to have grits & eggs for breakfast. It was delicious. My plan was to have cereal. I don't know why God planned for us to have this debate. What could he profit from us having this debate?





JB0704 said:


> Swamp runner, it was the "p" in "tulip" I am specifically addressing here, but am avoiding a "Calvinist" discussion because many of the predes folks do not claim calvinism.  That being said, if we look at the reformed position above, the first 8 scriptures you listed involve a positive act from the believer.  Phil 2:12-13 alos seems to indicate a similar thing.
> 
> This seems to contrast the concept of predestination......which lead me to the question as to whether or not election was revokeable.
> 
> .....then there's Ninevah.
> 
> I am still reading through your post and pondering, thanks for the list, and the book recomendation....I will find it and read it.



I think that was the point I was trying to make, Perseverance is quite a bit different than OSAS. It is misunderstood in alot of camps, including some calvinist.


I find it amazing that every one of the Apostles was sincerely concerned that they would be the one that would betray and hand over the Lord. They knew that they were capable of great wickedness and apostasy but for the grace of God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Election, Predestination, OSAS:
This is a debate that is like us debating the Oneness & theTrinity. Each side believes they are correct from reading Bible scriptures.

You are right though, we need to get back on topic which is election being revokeable


----------



## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> I fear nothing good can come of this thread.


Romans 8:28


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Romans 8:28



Dang!   Wish I'd thought of that.......


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Amen
> 
> 
> 
> Wow.
> 
> I fear nothing good can come of this thread.  Both these items have been discussed/debated/beaten to a pulp.
> 
> Honestly JB...I think you would profit from doing a search on the word "Predestination, predestined" etc etc in your Bible.  Also, I think HuntinFool has posted several times about the two "wills of God."  I think you'd do well to re-read those posts.
> 
> How someone can read the Bible....study it, and still believe in free will is beyond me.



Because virtually every chapter in the Bible speaks of mankinds ability to make choices, and making choices that will not create conflict in another's conscience, such as Romans 14.

Does everyone realize what God's greatest desire is??????
It is for mankind to love Him from their hearts.  Of their own free will.  Of their own choosing.

Certainly God is the Almighty Creator and Artist and Molder. But God has a desire from all of us that cannot be satisfied if He totally withholds freewill.

1 Samuel 15:22
Samuel said, “ Has the LORD as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice.... 

God always wanted our hearts.  He does not have it if He forces it.
Was Judas a tool in God's hands?  Absolutely!
I'm sure that God continues to manipulate so that His ultimate, eternal will may occur.

But that doesn't mean God has withheld freewill from humanity.
Even after receiving the Holy Spirit God has allowed that person the ability to quinch the spirit within them.


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> But, to clarify, your position is that God's mind did not change in Ninevah?


God is immutable. He can not and does not change his mind.

"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." (Malachi 3:6)

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning." (James 1:17). 

"Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." (Isaiah 46:11)

"The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations." (Psalm 33:11)

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"  (Numbers 23:19)


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> I'm sure that God continues to manipulate so that His ultimate, eternal will may occur.


You can't say that...

And then say this...



Ronnie T said:


> But that doesn't mean God has withheld freewill from humanity.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> You can't say that...
> 
> And then say this...



Of course I can.

There are occasions when God will "cause" me to do or say exactly what He needs to be said or done.

But that doesn't remove God,s will that I respond to Him in words, life, and actions, driven by my love for Him, rather than through His complete and total manipulation.

God's will is always met.
But part of God's will is that you and I "respond" to Him of our choosing.  It is in that choosing that God is most pleased with us.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Of course I can.


No you can't. Unless, of coarse, you are a politician. You can't say that humans have free will but their will is subject to God's manipulation. It just doesn't work.


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> No you can't. Unless, of coarse, you are a politician. You can't say that humans have free will but their will is subject to God's manipulation. It just doesn't work.



Certainly it works.
It's been working since the beginning of time.

Father's do the same thing with their children.
They control their will, and they do not control their will.

My heavenly Father controls my will, and my heavenly Father does not control my will.

Nothing my children do will ever cause me to stop protecting them.  But they might one day leave my as the prodigal son did.  If they do, I as they're father, will be waiting their return to me.


----------



## Ronnie T

We saw the same thing in God's entire relation with Israel, and we saw it with Annanias and Saphira.

God did some things for Israel, God commanded Israel to do some things for themselves.
And there were repercussions.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> My heavenly Father controls my will, and my heavenly Father does not control my will.


----------



## barryl

Christianity and Judaism, There are threads on that page. 1 Assurance of Salvation 2 Prechosen to be saved, I have read for two days a bunch of baloney from both sides, taking Scripture out of context is the worst I've seen. I am just a simple man no Capitol Letters after my name, ya'll have no excuse for not understanding Bible Doctrine unless you are one that claims to believe it when you really don't ! Heres a new one for ya 2 tim. 3: 16-17 KJV 1611 AV


----------



## JB0704

barryl said:


> Christianity and Judaism, There are threads on that page. 1 Assurance of Salvation 2 Prechosen to be saved, I have read for two days a bunch of baloney from both sides, taking Scripture out of context is the worst I've seen. I am just a simple man no Capitol Letters after my name, ya'll have no excuse for not understanding Bible Doctrine unless you are one that claims to believe it when you really don't ! Heres a new one for ya 2 tim. 3: 16-17 KJV 1611 AV



So, you have it all worked out, then?

Amazing how that one simple book spurred so many different denominations, isn't it?


----------



## gemcgrew

barryl said:


> Heres a new one for ya 2 tim. 3: 16-17 KJV 1611 AV


Barryl, it goes well with Isaiah 8:20 and Psalms 119:125-128.


----------



## barryl

About the baloney thing, you know who you are, the ones that can't "rightly divide the word of truth" 2 tim. 2:15 KJV 1611 AV


----------



## Huntinfool

Just curious....why is "1611 AV" posted after every verse?


My sense is that it's supposed to indicate this...



> So, you have it all worked out, then?


----------



## barryl

*?*



Huntinfool said:


> Just curious....why is "1611 AV" posted after every verse?
> 
> 
> My sense is that it's supposed to indicate this...


Now you know we can't discuss the unpardonable sin on these forums. The KJV 1611 AV is what I believe in and choose to use. You will have to make your own choices, fair enough ?


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Where in scripture does it say that Jews and the Gentiles are the same? We gentiles were grafted into the vine.


I did not say that they are the same. I said "they are the whole of God's elect". The Israel of God (Church) is all true believers. The physical nation of Israel was a type, a figure, of the Church. (Galatians 6:14-16) (Philippians 3:3)


mtnwoman said:


> So all of Israel will be saved even if they don't believe that Christ is their Saviour?


No. I am not talking about the salvation of all national Israel, or all Abraham’s physical seed. I am referring to Abraham's spiritual seed. (Galatians 3:6-9)
God's promises are not for Abraham's physical seed but are for his spiritual seed, Christ. (John 1:13)
We, all true believers, are the Hebrews(Israel of God). "All Israel shall be saved" (Romans 11:26)


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> No you can't. Unless, of coarse, you are a politician. You can't say that humans have free will but their will is subject to God's manipulation. It just doesn't work.



What about Jonah?

Jonah's will was not to go...God's will said he would, Jonah went.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Certainly it works.
> It's been working since the beginning of time.
> 
> Father's do the same thing with their children.
> They control their will, and they do not control their will.
> 
> My heavenly Father controls my will, and my heavenly Father does not control my will.
> 
> Nothing my children do will ever cause me to stop protecting them.  But they might one day leave my as the prodigal son did.  If they do, I as they're father, will be waiting their return to me.



When we sin, we are working on our own freewill to do so. When I sin, I do not believe that is God's will for me.  I wish I didn't have freewill, then I would be sinless.


----------



## mtnwoman

Huntinfool said:


> Just curious....why is "1611 AV" posted after every verse?
> 
> 
> My sense is that it's supposed to indicate this...



Your siggy is hilarious


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> What about Jonah?
> 
> Jonah's will was not to go...God's will said he would, Jonah went.


I fail to see your argument, as it appears you are in agreement with me.


----------



## thedeacon

If I ask on a thread here, does God want everyone to be saved? How would you answer, of course he does. Well is everyone going to be saved? Not according to the word, it says that only a few will be saved. Is that because God willed some to be saved and some others not. I think not. Do you think that a person can be saved and then commit sins that he is not sorry for and refused to repent and still expect to go to heaven. No, I don't think so.

I think this thrad is like beating a dead horse because he refuses to get up.


----------



## gemcgrew

thedeacon said:


> If I ask on a thread here, does God want everyone to be saved? How would you answer, of course he does.


No. It never was his purpose, design, or desire to save all men. If it was, all men would be saved.


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Christianity and Judaism, There are threads on that page. 1 Assurance of Salvation 2 Prechosen to be saved, I have read for two days a bunch of baloney from both sides, taking Scripture out of context is the worst I've seen. I am just a simple man no Capitol Letters after my name, ya'll have no excuse for not understanding Bible Doctrine unless you are one that claims to believe it when you really don't ! Heres a new one for ya 2 tim. 3: 16-17 KJV 1611 AV



I want you to know that I've always been impressed with your impression of yourself, and your lack of impression with anyone else.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> I fail to see your argument, as it appears you are in agreement with me.



Ok, that is because Jonah was called/elected to do that feat...that's what I'm gettin' at. 

God tells me to go to church, I don't always go....that's my freewill in action. If I had no free will, I would be made to be obedient like Jonah. Same for Paul...he was elected for his position by God. I believe I was adopted into the vine and given a choice to be grafted or not. Paul nor Jonah had a choice, God chose them regardless of their will...and of course Christ, too.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> No. It never was his purpose, design, or desire to save all men. If it was, all men would be saved.



Who is the 'whosoever believeth', then? Why do we have to fish for men, if they are already saved even before they know it themselves? If you are already of the elect why does anyone have to go and get killed on the mission field? Wouldn't it just pop into your head that you are saved when God decides it's time, whether or not you've heard the gospel. I thought hearing the gospel and believing the gospel is what saved most of us.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Who is the 'whosoever believeth', then?


They are those for whom Christ died.


mtnwoman said:


> Why do we have to fish for men, if they are already saved even before they know it themselves? If you are already of the elect why does anyone have to go and get killed on the mission field?


The elect are scattered throughout the world. We are commanded to seek them out by proclaiming the Gospel.


mtnwoman said:


> I thought hearing the gospel and believing the gospel is what saved most of us.


We are not born again because we believe, we believe because we have been born again. Faith is the proof that we are born again.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> They are those for whom Christ died.
> 
> The elect are scattered throughout the world. We are commanded to seek them out by proclaiming the Gospel.
> 
> We are not born again because we believe, we believe because we have been born again. Faith is the proof that we are born again.



Is there a scripture that says we are born again before we believe in Jesus, then afterwards we believe?  No!


----------



## 1gr8bldr

many will freely walk away from grace. Gal 3:3, "after beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to obtain your goal by human effort". 4;11, "I fear for you that I may have wasted my efforts". If no one could walk away then Paul would not have been concerned with anyone once they had been saved. He would get them saved and then move on. But he constantly warned them about being deceived by others. You can't lose it or have it taken away, but you can walk away from grace and back to works. "If you rebuild what you destroyed, you prove yourself a transgressor


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Is there a scripture that says we are born again before we believe in Jesus, then afterwards we believe?  No!


"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."(John 6:63) 

"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:"(Ephesians 2:1)

 "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)"(Ephesians 2:5)

"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"(Philippians 1:29)


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> We are not born again because we believe, we believe because we have been born again. Faith is the proof that we are born again.



So we must be born again before we believe? How does that work? How can you be born again if you don't believe in the first place?


----------



## mtnwoman

1gr8bldr said:


> many will freely walk away from grace. Gal 3:3, "after beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to obtain your goal by human effort". 4;11, "I fear for you that I may have wasted my efforts". If no one could walk away then Paul would not have been concerned with anyone once they had been saved. He would get them saved and then move on. But he constantly warned them about being deceived by others. You can't lose it or have it taken away, but you can walk away from grace and back to works. "If you rebuild what you destroyed, you prove yourself a transgressor



I can see that viewpoint.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."(John 6:63)
> 
> "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:"(Ephesians 2:1)
> 
> "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)"(Ephesians 2:5)
> 
> "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"(Philippians 1:29)



IMHO this in no way says that we are prechosen. In fact it supports the fact that we are called to Him...He quickens us...by hearing the gospel He is calling us, that's why we are to 'preach' the gospel. If anyone hears and believes he will be saved...anyone. He stands at the door and knocks...HE knocks, He calls us, we have to open the door or not, don't we? Why would He knock if already owned us?


whosoever includes everyone
world includes everyone
Why didn't the Bible just say this then?
For God so loved the elect, that he gave his only begotten Son, that the elect will believeth in him and not perish, but have everlasting life.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> So we must be born again before we believe? How does that work? How can you be born again if you don't believe in the first place?


You have been taught that salvation is accomplished by something you do. I am saying that belief is evidence, not acquisition.


----------



## JB0704

Gem, in light of this verse:



> "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." (Malachi 3:6)



How would you characterize God's initial statements regarding the fate of Ninevah, then his final statements to Jonah relevant to them being spared?

It is in these situations where I find your position confusing.....I can't wrap my head around it.  In one way, saying he was going to destroy a city, knowing full well he wouldn't, could be considered a lie.....but God can't lie if he is perfect.....so what happened?  I am not trying to stir the pot with this, I am very curious about it.....


----------



## gordon 2

If Ronnie T was a RC priest, you'd be headed for purgatory for sure!

And....

A good boxer never, never underestimates his opponents--unless the heart is out of him as a boxer. Let us be christian... and nurture each other's hearts...in peace. Gee.


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## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> IMHO this in no way says that we are prechosen.


Nor was it meant to.


----------



## Artfuldodger

"See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off." (Romans 11:22)

"If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries." (Hebrews 10:26-27)

"For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of (our) Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first. For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them." (2 Peter 2:20-21)

Luke 9:62 And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God. 

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.


I Cor 3:17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. 

I Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. 

James 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


----------



## Artfuldodger

There is mention in the Bible about the Elect. I believe Christians are the elect. Now if Christians can "err from the truth" then we have free will even after Salvation. Unless God elects people to be Christians and then manipulates them to "err from the truth". I don't believe God does this. I believe we "err from the truth" of our own accord.


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## 1gr8bldr

Tim 4:16, "watch your life and doctrine carefully. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers. This is Paul writing to Timithy whom we assume is already saved. The fact is that we have conflicting verses on OSAS


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## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> Is there a scripture that says we are born again before we believe in Jesus, then afterwards we believe?  No!





gemcgrew said:


> "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."(John 6:63)
> 
> "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins:"(Ephesians 2:1)
> 
> "Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)"(Ephesians 2:5)
> 
> "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;"(Philippians 1:29)



Sorry, I just don't see it.


----------



## Ronnie T

gordon 2 said:


> If Ronnie T was a RC priest, you'd be headed for purgatory for sure!
> 
> And....
> 
> A good boxer never, never underestimates his opponents--unless the heart is out of him as a boxer. Let us be christian... and nurture each other's hearts...in peace. Gee.



No way.
But we're all disciples seeking a truth that ultimately is THE truth.
Differences in our understands and in our convictions, but no one who can say they have the absolute truth beyond a shadow of doubt.

We trust in God, and we hold our convictions.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

1gr8bldr said:


> Tim 4:16, "watch your life and doctrine carefully. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers. This is Paul writing to Timithy whom we assume is already saved. The fact is that we have conflicting verses on OSAS


2 Peter 3:17 " be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of men and fall from your secure position"


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## 1gr8bldr

1gr8bldr said:


> 2 Peter 3:17 " be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of men and fall from your secure position"


I fear that those who might think you can lose your salvation might try harder "to get to God". That is the exact opposite. Give up, take hold of our savior, rest from your work
.


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## Ronnie T

1gr8bldr said:


> I fear that those who might think you can lose your salvation might try harder "to get to God". That is the exact opposite. Give up, take hold of our savior, rest from your work
> .



Amen absolutely.


----------



## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> Tim 4:16, "watch your life and doctrine carefully. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers. This is Paul writing to Timithy whom we assume is already saved. The fact is that we have conflicting verses on OSAS



I do not believe in OSAS. Our free will doesn't stop when we are saved. No one can snatch you from God's hand. This doesn't mean that you can't. God doesn't make people good or bad, prechosen to Heaven/He!!, nor would he take away his gift of Salvation. There would be no reason to "tell the world" or "pray" if it was predetermined what was going to happen in every incident. If people on a small island are pre-elected to be saved, their Salvation is not determined by us getting to them before they die.

Luk 13:25 And once the Master of the house has risen up and has shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us, and He shall answer and say to you, I do not know you; from where are you;

Luk 13:26 then you shall begin to say, We ate and drank in Your presence, and You have taught in our streets.

Luk 13:27 But He shall say, I tell you, I do not know you; from where you are. Depart from Me, all workers of unrighteousness!
Luk 13:28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you will see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves being thrust out.

 So yes, believers have everlasting life, but if one walks away from obeying God and living a godly life by no longer being committed to Him, he is NO LONGER A TRUE BELIEVER.

John 10:27-30 - Jesus said, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, AND THEY FOLLOW ME. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand. I and My Father are one.
The key on these verses is "and they follow me". If you quit following Jesus then these verses don't pertain to you.

Matt. 28:20 - Jesus said, "teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
(why would Jesus require us to do what he commands?) Especially if we don't have free will.


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> You have been taught that salvation is accomplished by something you do.



Actually no I wasn't...I was taught that Jesus did it all on the cross and I was one of the whosever that believeth in Him, would be saved. 

to believe
to accept
to surrender
confess you sins

Those are all actions, of no merit at all.....I was taught that you have to believe first and then you will be saved. 

So you just do nothing and all of a sudden you realize you are saved after all and you don't even have to believe? If that be so then I suppose you are truly of the elect and chosen to become a prophet and you missed your calling?

eta: I just reread this post and I meant it in a funny way, not a mean way. but i didn't want to edit it


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> I do not believe in OSAS. Our free will doesn't stop when we are saved. No one can snatch you from God's hand. This doesn't mean that you can't. God doesn't make people good or bad, prechosen to Heaven/He!!, nor would he take away his gift of Salvation. There would be no reason to "tell the world" or "pray" if it was predetermined what was going to happen in every incident. If people on a small island are pre-elected to be saved, their Salvation is not determined by us getting to them before they die.
> 
> Luk 13:25 And once the Master of the house has risen up and has shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us, and He shall answer and say to you, I do not know you; from where are you;
> 
> Luk 13:26 then you shall begin to say, We ate and drank in Your presence, and You have taught in our streets.
> 
> Luk 13:27 But He shall say, I tell you, I do not know you; from where you are. Depart from Me, all workers of unrighteousness!
> Luk 13:28 There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you will see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves being thrust out.


Me either, it is not a hoop you jump through. It is by faith. If I were to put my faith elsewhere, a different gospel or works, then that faith would prove itself no good in the end. But if I continue to put my faith in Jesus, then I can be sure that "what I have entrusted to him, he is able to keep".


----------



## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> Me either, it is not a hoop you jump through. It is by faith. If I were to put my faith elsewhere, a different gospel or works, then that faith would prove itself no good in the end. But if I continue to put my faith in Jesus, then I can be sure that "what I have entrusted to him, he is able to keep".



What happens to your Freewill when you are elected?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

1gr8bldr said:


> Me either, it is not a hoop you jump through. It is by faith. If I were to put my faith elsewhere, a different gospel or works, then that faith would prove itself no good in the end. But if I continue to put my faith in Jesus, then I can be sure that "what I have entrusted to him, he is able to keep".


I should spend some time pondering this debate. Maybe even search out a book that explains both sides.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> What happens to your Freewill when you are elected?


I believe in being "guided into all truth". And I don't believe in election. Election implies a decission in time. Paul said something like "chosen from the foundation of the world".


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> What happens to your Freewill when you are elected?


I believe in being "guided into all truth". And I don't believe in election. Election implies a decission in time. Paul said something like "chosen from the foundation of the world". 
 After reading my own post, election/chosen sound the same


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> You have been taught that salvation is accomplished by something you do. I am saying that belief is evidence, not acquisition.



You confused her with me. I'm the guy that believes faith without works is dead. I'll agree it is evidence. Amen. The evidence is something we do (free will) with the help of the Holy Spirit. We are also hindered by the Devil at the same time. Forces of evil, forces of good working on our souls at the same time. Final decision , bingourselves. You said before, if God wanted to save everyone, he would. He doesn't want forced love or obedience. He wants us to accept his offer. My belief is a little different in that I believe you can decline his offer.


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## Artfuldodger

In closing, look at what happened to Saint Lucifer, the devil. He was even in Heaven and God cast him out because of his rebellion, along with the angels that followed him. We aren't even there in heaven yet, so don't think you can rebel against God, and do your own thing, and he won't cast you out of being "in Christ.". If you do, that is pride. The major reason why the devil sinned and fell.

Free will in Heaven? I hope so, what would Heaven be if we had a mandatory agenda to attend like a seminar? Heaven is our reward. I might want to relax by the river and listen to a Bluegrass Harp Band play "Shall We Gather by the River".


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## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> Christianity and Judaism, There are threads on that page. 1 Assurance of Salvation 2 Prechosen to be saved, I have read for two days a bunch of baloney from both sides, taking Scripture out of context is the worst I've seen. I am just a simple man no Capitol Letters after my name, ya'll have no excuse for not understanding Bible Doctrine unless you are one that claims to believe it when you really don't ! Heres a new one for ya 2 tim. 3: 16-17 KJV 1611 AV



All scripture is given by the inspiration of God. It's all usefull for learning. I have learned a lot from scriptures you've listed for study. You do sometimes come off a little harsh in your responses. I know your heart so that doesn't bother me. Just tell us your beliefs on the post and use scriptures if so lead to back it up. Call us on the "out of context scriptures" and teach us the "err of the truth" without telling us we have no excuse. We don't have any Capital letters after our names either. We all struggle with reading, learning, and understanding the Bible.


----------



## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> You confused her with me. I'm the guy that believes faith without works is dead. I'll agree it is evidence. Amen. The evidence is something we do (free will) with the help of the Holy Spirit. We are also hindered by the Devil at the same time. Forces of evil, forces of good working on our souls at the same time. Final decision , bingourselves. You said before, if God wanted to save everyone, he would. He doesn't want forced love or obedience. He wants us to accept his offer. My belief is a little different in that I believe you can decline his offer.



Good points!


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## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> All scripture is given by the inspiration of God. It's all usefull for learning. I have learned a lot from scriptures you've listed for study. You do sometimes come off a little harsh in your responses. I know your heart so that doesn't bother me. Just tell us your beliefs on the post and use scriptures if so lead to back it up. Call us on the "out of context scriptures" and teach us the "err of the truth" without telling us we have no excuse. We don't have any Capital letters after our names either. We all struggle with reading, learning, and understanding the Bible.



Amen!


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## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> In closing, look at what happened to Saint Lucifer, the devil. He was even in Heaven and God cast him out because of his rebellion, along with the angels that followed him. We aren't even there in heaven yet, so don't think you can rebel against God, and do your own thing, and he won't cast you out of being "in Christ.". If you do, that is pride. The major reason why the devil sinned and fell.
> 
> Free will in Heaven? I hope so, what would Heaven be if we had a mandatory agenda to attend like a seminar? Heaven is our reward. I might want to relax by the river and listen to a Bluegrass Harp Band play "Shall We Gather by the River".



Oh Hallelujah!


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## mtnwoman

1gr8bldr said:


> I believe in being "guided into all truth". And I don't believe in election. Election implies a decission in time. Paul said something like "chosen from the foundation of the world".
> After reading my own post, election/chosen sound the same



I know what you're sayin'.


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## barryl

*Truth*



Artfuldodger said:


> All scripture is given by the inspiration of God. It's all usefull for learning. I have learned a lot from scriptures you've listed for study. You do sometimes come off a little harsh in your responses. I know your heart so that doesn't bother me. Just tell us your beliefs on the post and use scriptures if so lead to back it up. Call us on the "out of context scriptures" and teach us the "err of the truth" without telling us we have no excuse. We don't have any Capital letters after our names either. We all struggle with reading, learning, and understanding the Bible.


Don't mean to sound so harsh, I have been jerked around every which way but loose in life prior, sometimes myself, sometimes by deception. The word of God says what it says, means what it means. On this thread in peticular i've seen 2 times Gods word not put in it's proper context {1} 2 peter 2:5-10 How anyone gets loss of salvation out of that is beyond me. {2} Matt. Ch. 24 Trib. 2 advent[ faith and works- Jews] Doesn't apply to you, me or anyone on this forum. If you are like me I'm serious as a heart attack about gods Word. I'm like a dog after a biscuit over Gods word. Just sorry there is no easy Violin playin when I post. II tim. 2:15 KJV 1611 AV I know a lot don't like this verse, this was not given as a suggestion, it is given as a command!!


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## Israel

I feel like Emily Littella. Sorry Guys.

Have spent too much time in the midst of brothers talking about politics.
When I read the post yesterday morning I thought it said 
"OSAS and _the_ election".
Of course my response was appropriately inappropriate.
It's deleted.

But now my question is was I predestined to have occasional lapses in reading skill?
Or is it just the embarrassing assumptions I make sometimes based upon a predisposition when I wrongly read "into" things?

I believe I am predestined to be saved by free will...just not my own.
I mean a "will" that is really free...and not according to my understanding of what "free" means?


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## JB0704

Israel said:


> But now my question is was I predestined to have occasional lapses in reading skill?
> Or is it just the embarrassing assumptions I make sometimes based upon a predisposition when I wrongly read "into" things?



It happens.  But, it brings up an interesting thought......before the universe was created, did the creator ordain our mistakes?



Israel said:


> I believe I am predestined to be saved by free will...just not my own.
> I mean a "will" that is really free...and not according to my understanding of what "free" means?



....so, you do not believe in free will?  And, then, can God revoke your elction?

I believe Gem has said he will not.  I am still struggling with why, then, do people's actions change God's mind in the Bible.  I have brought up Ninevah a bunch, but there are several other examples as well.

One thing is clear, to me anyway, that the authors of the Bible, particularly the OT, believed God's mind could be changed.


----------



## gordon 2

JB0704 said:


> It happens.  But, it brings up an interesting thought......before the universe was created, did the creator ordain our mistakes?
> 
> 
> 
> ....so, you do not believe in free will?  And, then, can God revoke your elction?
> 
> I believe Gem has said he will not.  I am still struggling with why, then, do people's actions change God's mind in the Bible.  I have brought up Ninevah a bunch, but there are several other examples as well.
> 
> One thing is clear, to me anyway, that the authors of the Bible, particularly the OT, believed God's mind could be changed.





Romans 8:30
30 and these whom (x)He predestined, (A)He also called; and these whom He called, He also(B) justified; and these whom He justified, He also(C) glorified.


I wonder if people think that for being X we were A and then after being A we became B and after being B we became C?

How about for being B ( Justified or Just) the Justified were/are x (predestined) and A (called). It could be argued that many in both testaments and in christianity since it's beginnings were are glorified or C.

Or let me write it this way: For being just, the just are predestined and called and in the end are or will be glorified as the faithful.

Now does God's mind change? A just man can change God's mind about a whole people. Moses and the Hebrews come to mind firstly. A just man, a man called, predestined because of his just heart can plead to cover many sins and God change His ordinary heart.

God changes his heart about evil doers...when a just man sees a speck of gold and hope in them or even himself. And often that gold is justice, kindness, patience and the cause of predestination and election. ( This is perhaps what the old in the faith refered as God's mystries  with regards His will-- for fear of being unworthy spokespersons.) In my case I utter from childish thinkings in faith and  I fear not.)

Of course these are our ramblings.... my Lord's and mine. So take with gains of salt-- if it does not tingle your pallet.


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## Artfuldodger

Artfuldodger said:


> What happens to your Freewill when you are elected?



I'm using "elected" above as saved. What happens to your free will when you are saved/elected?


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## JB0704

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm using "elected" above as saved. What happens to your free will when you are saved/elected?



If you believe you are elected, then you will not believe in free will.  If you believe in free will, you will not believe that election (salvation) will change the fact.


----------



## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm using "elected" above as saved. What happens to your free will when you are saved/elected?



I think that the problem with election is that people are using all kinds of definitions for it, but too often Calvin's rigid construct.

If I remember a past tilling of this subject, the elected in the end meant the rightious or the rightious in heart.

"Blessed are the elected. What they have longed hope for in faith has come, for they shall inherit.... and see ...." My marks and paraphrase.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> I think that the problem with election is that people are using all kinds of definitions for it, but too often Calvin's rigid construct.
> 
> If I remember a past tilling of this subject, the elected in the end meant the rightious or the rightious in heart.
> 
> "Blessed are the elected. What they have longed hope for in faith has come, for they shall inherit.... and see ...." My marks and paraphrase.



That's the point I was trying to make.
Often the Bible will refer to Christian believers as “the elect,” meaning that they are individuals who have chosen of their own free will to accept God’s amazing free gift of salvation through Christ Jesus. (Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; Titus 1:1; John 15:16; Ephesians 1:4; Ephesians 2:10; II Thessalonians 2:13; II John 1:1, 13).


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> How would you characterize God's initial statements regarding the fate of Ninevah, then his final statements to Jonah relevant to them being spared?
> 
> It is in these situations where I find your position confusing.....I can't wrap my head around it.  In one way, saying he was going to destroy a city, knowing full well he wouldn't, could be considered a lie.....but God can't lie if he is perfect.....so what happened?  I am not trying to stir the pot with this, I am very curious about it.....


If this makes you find my position confusing, by all means, stay out of the Book of Judges.  

God does not change his mind. He is not double minded. "But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth" (Job 23:13) God may change course and not do what he has threatened to do but this is not a change of his mind. It is an alteration in the course of his providence, according to his unchangeable will. An example would be Proverbs 21:1, "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will."


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> If this makes you find my position confusing, by all means, stay out of the Book of Judges.







gemcgrew said:


> God does not change his mind. He is not double minded. "But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth" (Job 23:13) God may change course and not do what he has threatened to do but this is not a change of his mind. It is an alteration in the course of his providence, according to his unchangeable will. An example would be Proverbs 21:1, "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will."



I'm not following  and I am really not trying to be obtuse here......

His will remains the same, and changes course, causing him to say one thing and do another knowing full well the other was what he wanted to do all along?

I get that you are saying he does what he wants, and directs all traffic, but I am missing where we see that he does not change will.


----------



## hummerpoo

JB0704 said:


> One thing is clear, to me anyway, that the authors of the Bible, particularly the OT, believed God's mind could be changed.



Who knows the “mind” of God?
Anyone who imagines an equivalency between God and man has a faulty foundation for their understanding.


----------



## Bama4me

JB0704 said:


> But, if salvation (election) is an act of God, is there any Biblical reference telling us he will not revoke it?



Few ideas to answer your question.  First, to understand any biblical subject, it's wise to study everything Scripture says about that subject.  Sometimes, not just on this idea but on others as well, light is gradually shown on the "big picture" when all of God's word is considered.

Second, Ephesians 1:5 indicates God "chose" (_predestined_) people for adoption as sons through (_in_) Jesus Christ.  That means we are adopted by God as His children when we are "in Christ"... and we enjoy all spiritual blessings (including the promise of heaven) as long as we are "in Him."

When one studies Galatians 5:4, believers had "fallen from grace" and been "severed (_estranged_) from Christ".  As a result, they had forfeited the benefits enumerated in Ephesians 1:5-14 because they were no longer "in Christ."  BTW, the reason the Galatian brethren had fallen from grace was because they had tried to incorporate the act of circumcision into salvation.  In other words, they insisted that to be saved, circumcision was necessary... something Paul called "a different gospel" (1:6).  

If there IS such a passage which indicates God will not revoke salvation, it contradicts these teachings.


----------



## JB0704

hummerpoo said:


> Who knows the “mind” of God?
> Anyone who imagines an equivalency between God and man has a faulty foundation for their understanding.



I'm not making an equivalency. Jsut stating that the OT authors believed petitioning God would alter the stated course.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> If this makes you find my position confusing, by all means, stay out of the Book of Judges.
> 
> God does not change his mind. He is not double minded. "But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth" (Job 23:13) God may change course and not do what he has threatened to do but this is not a change of his mind. It is an alteration in the course of his providence, according to his unchangeable will. An example would be Proverbs 21:1, "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will."



Be careful... the passage you cite may actually teach that which you are opposing. ; )

The word in the KJV translated "in one mind" is rendered in other translations "unique" (KKJV) and "unchangeable" (ESV).  The NIV paraphrases it as "he stands alone and who can oppose him?"  However, the last part of the verse is also important... "what he desires, that he does."  This passage doesn't teach that God's will can't be changed... it teaches that human beings don't have the ability to change God's mind through any type of force or power.  Jonah 3:10 is a pretty clear passage where God chose to change his mind based on human repentance.  No one in Nineveh or elsewhere made him do so... He made the choice based upon human reaction to his message.


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> His will remains the same, and changes course, causing him to say one thing and do another knowing full well the other was what he wanted to do all along?
> 
> I get that you are saying he does what he wants, and directs all traffic, but I am missing where we see that he does not change will.



Knowing that God is omniscient, we know that any perceived changes on our part, are purposed by God and according to his will.


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Knowing that God is omniscient, we know that any perceived changes on our part, are purposed by God and according to his will.



I follow what your sayin' now.  Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## rjcruiser

gemcgrew said:


> Romans 8:28




Well...if everyone participating in this thread were "to those who know Him," I'd agree with you 


JB...and others...I was in the car all day yesterday and so I had a bit of time on my hands.  Listened to a sermon from someone I respect greatly....and I think it approached this subject quite well.  It was on Psalm 139.  I think you should listen to it.  It doesn't deal with OSAS or Predestination directly, but I think it gives a good picture of God and his omniscience.

Here's the link.

http://www.gracechurch.org/media/7318/pursuing_the_ultimate_goal/



Also, here's HF's recent post on the two wills of God.



			
				Huntinfool said:
			
		

> There are two wills of God: The Permissive Will and the Sovereign Will
> 
> See this example from John Piper...When we talk of "Your will be done", we are generally speaking of his Divine or Sovereign Will....the "end game" if you will.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> John Piper said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The most compelling example of God's willing for sin to come to pass while at the same time disapproving the sin is his willing the death of his perfect, divine Son. The betrayal of Jesus by Judas was a morally evil act inspired immediately by Satan (Luke 22:3). Yet in Acts 2:23 Luke says, "This Jesus [was] delivered up according to the definite plan (boule) and foreknowledge of God." The betrayal was sin, and it involved the instrumentality of Satan; but it was part of God's ordained plan. That is, there is a sense in which God willed the delivering up of his Son, even though the act was sin.
> 
> Moreover Herod's contempt for Jesus (Luke 23:11) and Pilate's spineless expediency (Luke 23:24) and the Jews' "Crucify! Crucify him!" (Luke 23:21) and the Gentile soldiers' mockery (Luke 23:36) were also sinful attitudes and deeds. Yet in Acts 4:27-28 Luke expresses his understanding of the sovereignty of God in these acts by recording the prayer of the Jerusalem saints:
> 
> Truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel to do whatever thy hand and thy plan (boule) had predestined to take place.
> 
> Herod, Pilate, the soldiers and Jewish crowds lifted their hand to rebel against the Most High only to find that their rebellion was unwitting (sinful) service in the inscrutable designs of God.
> 
> The appalling death of Christ was the will and work of God the Father. Isaiah wrote, "We esteemed him stricken, smitten by God . . . It was the will of the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief" (Isaiah 53:4,10). God's will was very much engaged in the events that brought his Son to death on the cross. God considered it "fitting to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings" (Hebrews 2:10). Yet, as Jonathan Edwards points out, Christ's suffering "could not come to pass but by sin. For contempt and disgrace was one thing he was to suffer."
> 
> It goes almost without saying that God wills obedience to his moral law, and that he wills this in a way that can be rejected by many. This is evident from numerous texts: "Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord, will enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will (thelema) of my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21). "Whoever does the will of my Father in heaven, he is my brother and sister and mother" (Matthew 12:50). "The one who does the will of God abides forever" (1 John 2:17). The "will of God" in these texts is the revealed, moral instruction of the Old and New Testaments, which proscribes sin.
> 
> Therefore we know it was not the "will of God" that Judas and Pilate and Herod and the Gentile soldiers and the Jewish crowds disobey the moral law of God by sinning in delivering Jesus up to be crucified. But we also know that it was the will of God that this come to pass. Therefore we know that God in some sense wills what he does not will in another sense. I. Howard Marshall's statement is confirmed by the death of Jesus: "We must certainly distinguish between what God would like to see happen and what he actually does will to happen."
Click to expand...


----------



## hummerpoo

JB0704 said:


> I'm not making an equivalency. Jsut stating that the OT authors believed petitioning God would alter the stated course.



My thinking was that to believe that God’s mind could be changed, or desire God to change His mind, one would first have to know God’s mind (if He indeed has a mind, or an equivalent function which we could know); which is not knowledge which I claim or recognize in others.  His revelation I believe must be accepted as stated and understood.


----------



## JB0704

Bama4me said:


> When one studies Galatians 5:4, believers had "fallen from grace" and been "severed (_estranged_) from Christ".  As a result, they had forfeited the benefits enumerated in Ephesians 1:5-14 because they were no longer "in Christ."  BTW, the reason the Galatian brethren had fallen from grace was because they had tried to incorporate the act of circumcision into salvation.  In other words, they insisted that to be saved, circumcision was necessary... something Paul called "a different gospel" (1:6).
> 
> If there IS such a passage which indicates God will not revoke salvation, it contradicts these teachings.



Are A&S also examples of falling from grace?  I'm not sure, they were members of the church, but they are not specified as "saved."

Either way, it is references such as that, and the one above which give me pause relevant to osas.

And, later in Galatians 5:



> Galatians 5:7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you.



If they were "running a good race" wouldn't that be evidence of initial salvation (election) given that man is "totally depraved" without Christ?  Then, man prohibits the continued effort by "cutting in."


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Be careful... the passage you cite may actually teach that which you are opposing. ; )
> 
> The word in the KJV translated "in one mind" is rendered in other translations "unique" (KKJV) and "unchangeable" (ESV).  The NIV paraphrases it as "he stands alone and who can oppose him?"  However, the last part of the verse is also important... "what he desires, that he does."  This passage doesn't teach that God's will can't be changed... it teaches that human beings don't have the ability to change God's mind through any type of force or power.  Jonah 3:10 is a pretty clear passage where God chose to change his mind based on human repentance.  No one in Nineveh or elsewhere made him do so... He made the choice based upon human reaction to his message.


If given enough time, God may have man to translate the word right out of the word.

Who grants human repentance? Who grants human reaction?


----------



## JB0704

hummerpoo said:


> His revelation I believe must be accepted as stated and understood.



Then, can you effort to know God's will outside what is clear in scripture?  Such as determining one choice over the other?


----------



## gordon 2

hummerpoo said:


> Who knows the “mind” of God?
> Anyone who imagines an equivalency between God and man has a faulty foundation for their understanding.



And yet God's mind is not here and there like the debris of a cyclone. God's mind as is related to man's mind is layed out like the trunk of a tree and it's branches in scripture and in the lives of the saints.

It is knowable, followable and agreeable, especially if you agree with Jesus and re-assess previous understandings concerning the will of God or the Father.

The elect if they chose are grafted to a tree and not just any or all  of those that the birds planted haphazardly--here and there... It is plainly knowable and visible or felt, thristed for and quested for, distinct. And found, you know it and Him and the Kingdom.


----------



## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> Well...if everyone participating in this thread were "to those who know Him," I'd agree with you



Yes and I know it is for my good. The further I am removed from will worshipping, the more difficult it is for me to understand what they are even trying to say. These conversations are a reminder to me, a warning, to not go back to the other side of the flood.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Well...if everyone participating in this thread were "to those who know Him," I'd agree with you



So......what are you sayin'??????


----------



## hummerpoo

JB0704 said:


> Then, can you effort to know God's will outside what is clear in scripture?  Such as determining one choice over the other?



Certainly, we have two-way communication, however, we must always recognize that it is facilitated from the other side and limited by our facility.


----------



## rjcruiser

gemcgrew said:


> Yes and I know it is for my good. The further I am removed from will worshipping, the more difficult it is for me to understand what they are even trying to say. These conversations are a reminder to me, a warning, to not go back to the other side of the flood.



I like what Hummerpoo said in an earlier post...I was going to quote it, but lost where it was.  I think it really goes down to your view of God and the view of yourself.

When it comes down to it, when something is between Me and God, it is a safe bet to choose God.  

God saved me, not myself.  God chose me, not myself.  God refines me, not myself.  I have my plans....but God directs my path.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> So......what are you sayin'??????



I don't think everyone who participates in these threads or this forum knows Christ as their Lord and Savior.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> I don't think everyone who participates in these threads or this forum knows Christ as their Lord and Savior.



If that is the approach you are taking, that nothing good can come of it because not all of us are "them that love the Lord," then wouldn't any participation be a bad idea because nothing good can come of it?


----------



## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> I like what Hummerpoo said in an earlier post...I was going to quote it, but lost where it was.  I think it really goes down to your view of God and the view of yourself.





hummerpoo said:


> JB, just a thought; every time you see these two perspectives, evaluate them with regard to which elevates God more, and which elevates man more.  Then choose God.   I think that over time a pattern of interpretation will develop.


I appreciated it as well. I did not acknowledge it at the time for fear of puffing him up.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> If that is the approach you are taking, that nothing good can come of it because not all of us are "them that love the Lord," then wouldn't any participation be a bad idea because nothing good can come of it?



No.

That just means that some things will work out for good...some things will work out for not so good.  When you're a Christian, the two sided coin of good/bad will always land on the good side.  Let's just say, God will's the coin to always land on good.  When you're a non-believer, God will's the coin to land on both good and bad.

God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust...right?


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Actually no I wasn't...I was taught that Jesus did it all on the cross and I was one of the whosever that believeth in Him, would be saved.


We have no disagreement there. 


mtnwoman said:


> to believe
> to accept
> to surrender
> confess you sins
> 
> Those are all actions, of no merit at all.....I was taught that you have to believe first and then you will be saved.


If you have to believe first in order to be born again(regeneration), how can you say that "to believe" has no merit(reward or significance)?


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> No.
> 
> That just means that some things will work out for good...some things will work out for not so good.  When you're a Christian, the two sided coin of good/bad will always land on the good side.  Let's just say, God will's the coin to always land on good.  When you're a non-believer, God will's the coin to land on both good and bad.
> 
> God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust...right?



This makes it sound like bad things never happen to Christians.


----------



## Artfuldodger

How does a Christian know he is of the "Elect?"


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> This makes it sound like bad things never happen to Christians.



All things work together for good to those who love Christ.  Rom 8:28

I guess it depends on your interpretation of all things. 




Artfuldodger said:


> How does a Christian know he is of the "Elect?"



If he's a Christian, he's part of God's elect.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> We have no disagreement there.
> 
> If you have to believe first in order to be born again(regeneration), how can you say that "to believe" has no merit(reward or significance)?



I guess what I meant is 'has no merit' according to anything that I have done.  Nothing I can do will save me.

I do thank God everyday for even letting me believe and for letting my eyes be opened to His promises and gifts.  It is all of Him and none of me.


----------



## mtnwoman

rjcruiser said:


> All things work together for good to those who love Christ.  Rom 8:28
> 
> I guess it depends on your interpretation of all things.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If he's a Christian, he's part of God's elect.



How does some one who is not saved come to the conclusion they are of the elect? When do you know?

Isn't believing a requirement to become a Christian?

I wish I had a better understanding of the 'elect' thing.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> I guess what I meant is 'has no merit' according to anything that I have done.  Nothing I can do will save me.
> 
> I do thank God everyday for even letting me believe and for letting my eyes be opened to His promises and gifts.  It is all of Him and none of me.


Absolutely!

There was a day when I would not have Christ, then suddenly, I wanted Him more than life itself. What happened?


----------



## barryl

*In christ*



Bama4me said:


> Few ideas to answer your question.  First, to understand any biblical subject, it's wise to study everything Scripture says about that subject.  Sometimes, not just on this idea but on others as well, light is gradually shown on the "big picture" when all of God's word is considered.
> 
> Second, Ephesians 1:5 indicates God "chose" (_predestined_) people for adoption as sons through (_in_) Jesus Christ.  That means we are adopted by God as His children when we are "in Christ"... and we enjoy all spiritual blessings (including the promise of heaven) as long as we are "in Him."
> 
> When one studies Galatians 5:4, believers had "fallen from grace" and been "severed (_estranged_) from Christ".  As a result, they had forfeited the benefits enumerated in Ephesians 1:5-14 because they were no longer "in Christ."  BTW, the reason the Galatian brethren had fallen from grace was because they had tried to incorporate the act of circumcision into salvation.  In other words, they insisted that to be saved, circumcision was necessary... something Paul called "a different gospel" (1:6).
> 
> If there IS such a passage which indicates God will not revoke salvation, it contradicts these teachings.


Bama, you hit on the very thing, Eph 1:4 [In Christ] 1 Peter 1:2 Foreknowledge- This is sound Doctrine. Concerning Gal. 5:4 trying to mix Law and Grace. The Gauls rejected Christ after the grace had been offered. So, they were not saved.


----------



## Ronnie T

Also Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.


----------



## Bama4me

JB0704 said:


> Are A&S also examples of falling from grace?  I'm not sure, they were members of the church, but they are not specified as "saved."
> 
> Either way, it is references such as that, and the one above which give me pause relevant to osas.
> 
> And, later in Galatians 5:
> 
> 
> 
> If they were "running a good race" wouldn't that be evidence of initial salvation (election) given that man is "totally depraved" without Christ?  Then, man prohibits the continued effort by "cutting in."



It would... and if you want another text which shows that salvation can indeed be lost, check out Acts 8:9ff.  Simon "believed and was baptized" (9:13).  Yet, after he attempted to purchase the gift of God with hands, notice the things Peter said:
*  "May your silver perish" with you (20)
*  "Your heart is not right before God" (21)
*  Your "wickedness" needs "repentance" (22)
*  "You're in the gall of bitterness/bond of iniquity" (23)

People who subscribe to OSAS try to tell me that Simon wasn't "a true believer"... that it, he was a fake.  Yet, if we believe in Bible inspiration, it was the Holy Spirit (not Luke) who authored the words "believed" & "baptized".  It is blasphemous to claim the Holy Spirit may have been mistaken on this point.

People supporting this belief also want me to believe that a person can still be in a state of salvation when the above phrases are used to describe a Christian... phrases which nowhere else in the New Testament describe people in a right relationship with God.


----------



## Bama4me

mtnwoman said:


> How does some one who is not saved come to the conclusion they are of the elect? When do you know?
> 
> Isn't believing a requirement to become a Christian?
> 
> I wish I had a better understanding of the 'elect' thing.



Mtnwoman... it's not as difficult as many make it out to be.  The best example I've ever come across to help grasp the concept is that of what occurs in a classroom at school.

When my teachers in grade school set a "grading scale," she predestined every member of class to either pass or fail.  The scale?  Everyone scoring 70 and above passed the class... everyone making 69 or below failed.  Thus, on that day, she "predestined" two groups of people... ones who would pass and ones who would fail.  However, note the "predestination" was not on an individual basis.  It was on a "group basis."  I, not my teacher, determined which predestined group I was a part of.

Similarly, God "predestines" every person during our day today.  He has identified those who are "in Christ" to have an eternal reward... and has identified those "who aren't in Christ" to be punished eternally in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -.  However, I am the one who chooses which group I shall belong to... that's why Ephesians 1:5 says we are predestined "in Christ."

The Bible teaches "predestination"... but it teaches it on a group, not individual level.  Good luck with your studies on it.


----------



## hummerpoo

rjcruiser said:


> All things work together for good to those who love Christ.  Rom 8:28
> 
> I guess it depends on your interpretation of all things.



For the disciple the only good is that which glorifies God and all that glorifies God is good.  Therefore, as God, through His providence, brings about His glory it is good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

What could possibly be bad?


----------



## hummerpoo

gordon 2 said:


> And yet God's mind is not here and there like the debris of a cyclone. God's mind as is related to man's mind is layed out like the trunk of a tree and it's branches in scripture and in the lives of the saints.
> 
> It is knowable, followable and agreeable, especially if you agree with Jesus and re-assess previous understandings concerning the will of God or the Father.
> 
> The elect if they chose are grafted to a tree and not just any or all  of those that the birds planted haphazardly--here and there... It is plainly knowable and visible or felt, thristed for and quested for, distinct. And found, you know it and Him and the Kingdom.



Are we not then back to the garden, asking "Is fallen man capable of knowing, seeing, feeling; does he thirst and search?"  Is he fallen or just stumbling a little?


Gordon, I fear I misunderstood you thought and responded inappropriatly.  Please accept my apology.

Yes, we have been given much; indeed, all that we need; possibly more than we can properly handle.
My concern is that we (or more accurately, I) arrogantly believe that we have seen that part of the tree which is beyond our sight.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> The best example I've ever come across to help grasp the concept is that of what occurs in a classroom at school.
> 
> When my teachers in grade school set a "grading scale," she predestined every member of class to either pass or fail.  The scale?  Everyone scoring 70 and above passed the class... everyone making 69 or below failed.  Thus, on that day, she "predestined" two groups of people... ones who would pass and ones who would fail.  However, note the "predestination" was not on an individual basis.  It was on a "group basis."  I, not my teacher, determined which predestined group I was a part of.



Bama, in this best example, would you please show what each figure is representing, teachers(God?), grade school(?), grading scale(?) etc.

This should not be too difficult, seeing that it is a best example.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> For the disciple the only good is that which glorifies God and all that glorifies God is good.  Therefore, as God, through His providence, brings about His glory it is good for those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.
> 
> What could possibly be bad?



Cancer, financial hardship, earaches, divorce, non-winning lottery ticket, etc.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bama4me said:


> Mtnwoman... it's not as difficult as many make it out to be.  The best example I've ever come across to help grasp the concept is that of what occurs in a classroom at school.
> 
> When my teachers in grade school set a "grading scale," she predestined every member of class to either pass or fail.  The scale?  Everyone scoring 70 and above passed the class... everyone making 69 or below failed.  Thus, on that day, she "predestined" two groups of people... ones who would pass and ones who would fail.  However, note the "predestination" was not on an individual basis.  It was on a "group basis."  I, not my teacher, determined which predestined group I was a part of.
> 
> Similarly, God "predestines" every person during our day today.  He has identified those who are "in Christ" to have an eternal reward... and has identified those "who aren't in Christ" to be punished eternally in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -.  However, I am the one who chooses which group I shall belong to... that's why Ephesians 1:5 says we are predestined "in Christ."
> 
> The Bible teaches "predestination"... but it teaches it on a group, not individual level.  Good luck with your studies on it.



Thanks, that is a good way to describe it. Works for me.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Cancer, financial hardship, earaches, divorce, non-winning lottery ticket, etc.


Art, I was 21 yrs. old when my mom died from cancer. It drove me into deep rebellion and smack dab into the arms of my Redeemer.


----------



## Artfuldodger

One cannot be severed from that to which he was not joined. You can't be "cut off" from Jesus if you were never a part of Jesus.
You can't fall from grace if you never had grace. “In grace” denotes salvation (see Romans 5:2; Acts 13:43)


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Art, I was 21 yrs. old when my mom died from cancer. It drove me into deep rebellion and smack dab into the arms of my Redeemer.



I'm sorry to hear that you lost your Mom at such an early age. I don't see death as being all bad , we're all going to die. I do see the pain & suffering as bad. I'm glad you were drawn to Jesus.
I just happen to see good & bad things happening to everyone.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm sorry to hear that you lost your Mom at such an early age. I don't see death as being all bad , we're all going to die. I do see the pain & suffering as bad. I'm glad you were drawn to Jesus.
> I just happen to see good & bad things happening to everyone.


My point is, that at the time, I viewed it as bad but now I rejoice in the goodness of it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> My point is, that at the time, I viewed it as bad but now I rejoice in the goodness of it.



That's how I look at unanswered prayers. Sometimes down the road I realize how blessed I was that God didn't answer my prayers. 
Prayers haven't been mentioned much in the discussion of "God changing the course of events" or "the power of prayer".

As I recall your reason for praying is because we are commanded to do it.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> As I recall your reason for praying is because we are commanded to do it.


I pray because I can't cease from it. If I could stop, I would.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Why does God get angry? “For the wrath of God is revealed...” (Romans 1:18)
Jesus was angry in the temple but I guess that could have been his human nature.
Why does God get distressed?  "In all their distress he too was distressed" (Isiah 63:9)
Why does God even have or show emotions? Love, anger, distress, happiness and actions from emotion: reward, punish, help.
"the kindness and the severity of God" (Rom. 11:22)
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.(Romans 12:19)
God is a Jealous God. God is a good Father. If his children are naughty, He disciplines them. 

Also be reminded that we are made in the image of God. Jesus said, if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> Cancer, financial hardship, earaches, divorce, non-winning lottery ticket, etc.



James 2 talks about trials.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Quote: If God wanted everyone to be saved, they would be.
That let's me know we have free will. When I read the "election" verses it enforces my belief in "free-will". Some of the same verses presented for election sound like verses for free-will. 
Luke 23:34 can someone of the "free-will" camp explain that one. As I've said often, I believe in limited free-will. God can force his hand or intervene whenever he wants to for whatever reason he wants to.
Luke 23:34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing." 

Below are verses from Timothy showing we can lose faith in God but like the father in the Prodigal son story, God will never lose his faith in us. (does this sound like some sort of election or predestination)? Why would Paul keep constantly reminding the Church to keep the truth if they could never lose the "truth"?
If predestination were true, we could discard about half the Bible.
2 Timothy 2:11-13:
11Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> James 2 talks about trials.



Oh i'm well aware of the purpose of trials. I'm a father myself. Trials let me know that God is giving me the "free-will" to strengthen my faith in him through trials.
As a father, I use trials to teach my children to make proper decisions on their own(free-will). I still guide and watch them just as the Holy Spirit guides and watches over me in my trials.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> Quote: If God wanted everyone to be saved, they would be.
> That let's me know we have free will. When I read the "election" verses it enforces my belief in "free-will". Some of the same verses presented for election sound like verses for free-will.
> Luke 23:34 can someone of the "free-will" camp explain that one. As I've said often, I believe in limited free-will. God can force his hand or intervene whenever he wants to for whatever reason he wants to.
> Luke 23:34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
> 
> Below are verses from Timothy showing we can lose faith in God but like the father in the Prodigal son story, God will never lose his faith in us. (does this sound like some sort of election or predestination)? Why would Paul keep constantly reminding the Church to keep the truth if they could never lose the "truth"?
> If predestination were true, we could discard about half the Bible.
> 2 Timothy 2:11-13:
> 11Here is a trustworthy saying:
> 
> If we died with him,
> we will also live with him;
> If we gave our old self up we will live our new life with Him
> 
> 
> 12if we endure,
> we will also reign with him.
> Those who faithfully endure will reign with him in heaven.
> 
> 
> If we disown him,
> he will also disown us;
> Judgement and condemnation of those who are guilty.
> 
> 
> 13if we are faithless,
> he will remain faithful,
> Not so sure I fully understand what Paul
> means here.
> 
> 
> for he cannot disown himself.



I not so sure this verse says exactly what we sometimes believe it says.


----------



## Artfuldodger

"If" is used in a lot of verses concerning salvation. Like the ones above, If we endure and if we disown him.
Other verses say things like:  if we are in Christ, or if we keep God in our hearts, or if we follow the truth, or if we believe, if we keep his commandments, if we help poor people, if we forgive others, if we endure to the end,etc.


----------



## mtnwoman

Bama4me said:


> Mtnwoman... it's not as difficult as many make it out to be.  The best example I've ever come across to help grasp the concept is that of what occurs in a classroom at school.
> 
> When my teachers in grade school set a "grading scale," she predestined every member of class to either pass or fail.  The scale?  Everyone scoring 70 and above passed the class... everyone making 69 or below failed.  Thus, on that day, she "predestined" two groups of people... ones who would pass and ones who would fail.  However, note the "predestination" was not on an individual basis.  It was on a "group basis."  I, not my teacher, determined which predestined group I was a part of.
> 
> Similarly, God "predestines" every person during our day today.  He has identified those who are "in Christ" to have an eternal reward... and has identified those "who aren't in Christ" to be punished eternally in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -.  However, I am the one who chooses which group I shall belong to... that's why Ephesians 1:5 says we are predestined "in Christ."
> 
> The Bible teaches "predestination"... but it teaches it on a group, not individual level.  Good luck with your studies on it.



Thanks! 
I understand it that way, but without free will to choose which group you wanna be in and without free will to study for the test, how could you pass the test? According to what most people are saying on this thread....the teacher would just choose who she wants to pass the test, and you have to do nothing to pass it. At least that's what I understand them to be saying.


----------



## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> "If" is used in a lot of verses concerning salvation. Like the ones above, If we endure and if we disown him.
> Other verses say things like:  if we are in Christ, or if we keep God in our hearts, or if we follow the truth, or if we believe, if we keep his commandments, if we help poor people, if we forgive others, if we endure to the end,etc.



If you bring your tithes and offerings to the storehouse...
to me that says we have free will to tithe or give offerings or not.

I'm with you on the 'ifs'.....requires a response, or action on our part. It doesn't say....you will believe...it says if you will believe then...


----------



## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> That's how I look at unanswered prayers. Sometimes down the road I realize how blessed I was that God didn't answer my prayers.
> Prayers haven't been mentioned much in the discussion of "God changing the course of events" or "the power of prayer".
> 
> As I recall your reason for praying is because we are commanded to do it.



OMGoodness, me, too.

God thank you for not giving me the things that I ask for but certainly didn't need.


----------



## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> Quote: If God wanted everyone to be saved, they would be.
> That let's me know we have free will. When I read the "election" verses it enforces my belief in "free-will"



Me, too.  Jesus said we must come as little children..

Matt.18:14
Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.


----------



## Israel

When the first calculation is wrong...the whole equation is off, no matter what deep computations may follow the first error. 
Adam's first calculation was that God was withholding something of himself from him, and he could "do" something to be like him.
"Life would be better if=Life is not as good as it could be=Life really is not "all" good.

Every man who makes this computation is a condemned by it...for he does not know what "zero" life is equal too. To "not" be. And in that error...comes the underestimation of life...that it is subject to be added to.

"I am the way, the truth, and THE life" came to us, swallowed all of death in himself for us...and made plain..."Life" is good. Even telling the fearful who had been bitten before by deceitful promises of their own calculations...
"Fear not little flock, it is the Father's GOOD pleasure to GIVE you the Kingdom".

Is God a "withholder" till certain terms are met?
Or, do we see in Christ even the penalty paid for all our miscalculations?
Our need to know something is completely undone in the revelation of our knowing we are created to know someone.
And how much he gives of himself for us.
All need meets all sufficiency, as it should. And there fellowship occurs.
God is not ashamed of our need. How can we be? 
God fixed our bad math, why do we revisit it?


----------



## gordon 2

Israel said:


> When the first calculation is wrong...the whole equation is off, no matter what deep computations may follow the first error.
> Adam's first calculation was that God was withholding something of himself from him, and he could "do" something to be like him.
> "Life would be better if=Life is not as good as it could be=Life really is not "all" good.
> 
> Every man who makes this computation is a condemned by it...for he does not know what "zero" life is equal too. To "not" be. And in that error...comes the underestimation of life...that it is subject to be added to.
> 
> "I am the way, the truth, and THE life" came to us, swallowed all of death in himself for us...and made plain..."Life" is good. Even telling the fearful who had been bitten before by deceitful promises of their own calculations...
> "Fear not little flock, it is the Father's GOOD pleasure to GIVE you the Kingdom".
> 
> Is God a "withholder" till certain terms are met?
> Or, do we see in Christ even the penalty paid for all our miscalculations?
> Our need to know something is completely undone in the revelation of our knowing we are created to know someone.
> And how much he gives of himself for us.
> All need meets all sufficiency, as it should. And there fellowship occurs.
> God is not ashamed of our need. How can we be?
> God fixed our bad math, why do we revisit it?



Maybe because every new generation of the "saved" believes " surely there is something else or more" and also believing there is bounty in defining Him,( as in to define Him is to know Him) instead of knowing Him through His will? Let's call it the Eve syndrome whereby man's  or a christian's spiritual enthusiasm is given to much futile protests.

And of course many have had one foot in the Kingdom and another in the World. They vote for the math of the Kingdom but can't see it adding up...in their lives ( The World).

I was talking to an elderly gentleman the other day, we were bantering about politics. He said, "You know, people vote for a president as if they were electing a God, but his promises must be of the world otherwise they would not vote for him." There is something to this I think.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> As I've said often, I believe in limited free-will. God can force his hand or intervene whenever he wants to for whatever reason he wants to.


How is "Limited freewill" not an oxymoron?


----------



## Bama4me

mtnwoman said:


> Thanks!
> I understand it that way, but without free will to choose which group you wanna be in and without free will to study for the test, how could you pass the test? According to what most people are saying on this thread....the teacher would just choose who she wants to pass the test, and you have to do nothing to pass it. At least that's what I understand them to be saying.



Don't know what others are saying about free will here, but man always has been able to choose salvation or eternal death. Even in OT times, people could choose (I.e. Joshua 24:15).  

1 Peter 1:22 indicates we are purified when we obey the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 claims the unrighteous refuse to love and obey the truth. James 5:19-20 says when one wanders from the truth, he/she faces spiritual death. Thus, it seems the bible teaches that yes... there is something we must do to place ourselves in the group predestined for heaven.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Bama, in this best example, would you please show what each figure is representing, teachers(God?), grade school(?), grading scale(?) etc.
> 
> This should not be too difficult, seeing that it is a best example.



Gem... surely you don't expect every illustration which helps people to understand a biblical truth to be used "from every angle" do you?  Ephesians 5:22ff claims the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is head of the church. Does that mean husbands ought to physically die on a cross for their wives (as Christ did for the church)... or was the illustration primarily used to teach what "headship" means?

The illustration of a teacher/class helps illuminate the idea of "group election" as opposed to "individual election."


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> How is "Limited freewill" not an oxymoron?



I gave my children limited free will. I have limited free will in my job. I have a supervisor who interjects from time to time. He can punish me or reward me for my performance.
He can do that because of my free will. 
Under pre destination every minute detail of every human, animal, & plant is predetermined. That is just a strange concept for me to fathom.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Israel said:


> Is God a "withholder" till certain terms are met?
> QUOTE]
> 
> I'm not very good at explaining my beliefs on the matter but there are requirements on our part. If we believe and continue to believe and keep his commandments, then our Salvation is secure. We can do this out of love and because we want to.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> We can do this out of love and because we want to.


Or perhaps we are a slave to righteousness and no longer a slave to sin. So here is another oxymoron for you, "I am a free slave".


----------



## Artfuldodger

How can someone believe in "free-will" and "OSAS" at the same time? Does your free will stop after Salvation?

This is the opposite of the OP which is asking if a belief in Election/Predestination and not OSAS is possible.


----------



## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> How can someone believe in "free-will" and "OSAS" at the same time? Does your free will stop after Salvation?



I believe in both. Here's why...just my opinion and experience.

I was saved at age 12 and I know that I know that I was. My own free will lead me far from God's will for me, unless it was God's will for me to sin. I can't get by that.

But....He left the ninty and nine and came back to get me. He always knew where I was. Be if for a testamony, God let me travel down those paths. My experience causes me to believe that once saved, always saved. I belonged to Him beginning at age 12....nothing snatched me out of His hand...and yet I continue in sin (just not as much) which to me is not God's will. No matter how I want to or how hard I try, I cannot for the life of me, not sin.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Or perhaps we are a slave to righteousness and no longer a slave to sin. So here is another oxymoron for you, "I am a free slave".



I can buy that.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mtnwoman said:


> I believe in both. Here's why...just my opinion and experience.
> 
> I was saved at age 12 and I know that I know that I was. My own free will lead me far from God's will for me, unless it was God's will for me to sin. I can't get by that.
> 
> But....He left the ninty and nine and came back to get me. He always knew where I was. Be if for a testamony, God let me travel down those paths. My experience causes me to believe that once saved, always saved. I belonged to Him beginning at age 12....nothing snatched me out of His hand...and yet I continue in sin (just not as much) which to me is not God's will. No matter how I want to or how hard I try, I cannot for the life of me, not sin.



Amen, and we're glad to have you back in the fold and you have a good testimony. There might be someone who hears you and know that if you returned to Jesus so can they.


----------



## barryl

*If's*



Artfuldodger said:


> How can someone believe in "free-will" and "OSAS" at the same time? Does your free will stop after Salvation?
> 
> This is the opposite of the OP which is asking if a belief in Election/Predestination and not OSAS is possible.


I know I have been informed that a lot don't care what I have to say, but take out the If's, go study the Doctrines of Adoption, imputation, Justification,sanctification, propitation imputation, etc. Get ahold of that, I watch some on this forum try to teach loss of salvation by using Faith and Works Tribulation 2nd Advent Doctrines, by the way, if you are left {Rapture}Faith and works is what it will take. We are under Grace, Faith plus nothing Eph. 2:8-10 KJV 1611 AV Sure would cut down on a lot of confusion if "we" would all would learn to "rightly divide the word of Truth". Get rid of the blanket theory.


----------



## rjcruiser

gemcgrew said:


> How is "Limited freewill" not an oxymoron?







Artfuldodger said:


> Under pre destination every minute detail of every human, animal, & plant is predetermined.



I'd say that is the definition of hyper-pre destination.



Artfuldodger said:


> How can someone believe in "free-will" and "OSAS" at the same time? Does your free will stop after Salvation?



I think it actually begins after Salvation to a point.  As we have the Holy Spirit living in side of us, we can actually choose to good works with the help of the Holy Spirit.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> I'd say that is the definition of hyper-pre destination.
> QUOTE]
> 
> Yeah, that's kinda like my "limited free will".
> Do you not believe God controls everthing?


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> I think it actually begins after Salvation to a point.  As we have the Holy Spirit living in side of us, we can actually choose to good works with the help of the Holy Spirit.



.....nice lead into the next thread I am thinking of starting dealing with the "t" in tulip.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> How can someone believe in "free-will" and "OSAS" at the same time?



The debil made me do it.
No fair googling the source before a careful read.

V. God's Purpose of Grace

Election is the gracious purpose of God, according to which He regenerates, justifies, sanctifies, and glorifies sinners. It is consistent with the free agency of man, and comprehends all the means in connection with the end. It is the glorious display of God's sovereign goodness, and is infinitely wise, holy, and unchangeable. It excludes boasting and promotes humility.

All true believers endure to the end. Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> rjcruiser said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd say that is the definition of hyper-pre destination.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's kinda like my "limited free will".
> Do you not believe God controls everthing?
Click to expand...


Okay...good point.  Yup...God controls all things.



JB0704 said:


> .....nice lead into the next thread I am thinking of starting dealing with the "t" in tulip.



Just do a search...and bump the one that was started a couple years ago.    Think it was started by Banjo.  

BTW...if Banjo is reading this...


----------



## StriperAddict

Israel said:


> When the first calculation is wrong...the whole equation is off, no matter what deep computations may follow the first error.
> Adam's first calculation was that God was withholding something of himself from him, and he could "do" something to be like him.
> "Life would be better if=Life is not as good as it could be=Life really is not "all" good.
> 
> Every man who makes this computation is a condemned by it...for he does not know what "zero" life is equal too. To "not" be. And in that error...comes the underestimation of life...that it is subject to be added to.
> 
> "I am the way, the truth, and THE life" came to us, swallowed all of death in himself for us...and made plain..."Life" is good. Even telling the fearful who had been bitten before by deceitful promises of their own calculations...
> "Fear not little flock, it is the Father's GOOD pleasure to GIVE you the Kingdom".
> 
> Is God a "withholder" till certain terms are met?
> Or, do we see in Christ even the penalty paid for all our miscalculations?
> Our need to know something is completely undone in the revelation of our knowing we are created to know someone.
> And how much he gives of himself for us.
> All need meets all sufficiency, as it should. And there fellowship occurs.
> God is not ashamed of our need. How can we be?
> God fixed our bad math, why do we revisit it?


 
Bless you brother for posting good gleanings at the heart of the matter.


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> .....nice lead into the next thread I am thinking of starting dealing with the "t" in tulip.


Hey, is that the one that describes how good we are? And when combined with freewill, we are sure to make the most of our limited choices?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> .
> 
> All true believers endure to the end.Those whom God has accepted in Christ, and sanctified by His Spirit, will never fall away from the state of grace, but shall persevere to the end. Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation, whereby they grieve the Spirit, impair their graces and comforts, and bring reproach on the cause of Christ and temporal judgments on themselves; yet they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.



With God's foreknowledge, Why would he 
regenerate people He knows will not persevere?
It would be a waste of his time. So we might as well go with pre-election and pre-destination.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> So we might as well go with pre-election and pre-destination.


Sorry Art, there currently are no openings available at Camp Hardshell.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Gem, thanks for your pm the other day.

Can't believe your still trying to argue with this crowd. lol. They just don't see it. But I wish more people were Hardshell.


----------



## Artfuldodger

The Bible student is to very carefully cut and divide the Word of God in order to understand it aright.  As an illustration of this, consider the dissection of the human body.  In medical school the students actually work with a human cadaver.  It is very difficult to learn about the human body apart from having an actual human body to dissect. 

The medical student first needs to realize that the body needs to be very carefully cut.  You would not want to put it through a wood chopper or take a butcher knife to it.  But with the right instruments and specialized knives, very careful cuts can be made.  The whole purpose of the dissection is to learn about the human body.  As the student examines the human body he is looking for both similarities and differences.  He sees veins and arteries which in some ways are similar but in other ways are different.  The small intestines are similar to the large intestines, but there are differences also, especially in size. 

The medical student also notices that there are some things that run throughout the body but there are other things that are found in only one section of the body.  For example, the circulatory system runs throughout the body as does the nervous system, but the digestive system runs through only the top half of the person and not in the legs.  The same is true for the respiratory system.  The reproductive system is even more localized.

In much the same way, when we study God's Word we must carefully cut and dissect the Word of truth. We are to note the things that are similar and the things that are different.  For example, John the Baptist, the Lord Jesus, the twelve disciples and the seventy disciples all preached the same message:  "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; 10:7; Luke 10:9).  This is an example of similarity. The commission given by Christ to the disciples in Matthew 10 was intended for Israel only, not for the Gentiles and not for the Samaritans (Matthew 10:5-6).  The commission given by Christ to the disciples after the resurrection was intended for all nations, including the Samaritans and the Gentiles (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15; Luke 24:47; Acts 1:8).  This is an example of a clear difference.

2 Timothy 2:2  And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

I don't think i've reached the point in my bible studies to "rightly divide the truth" and now i'm wondering if it makes any difference. Who would I teach if it's already decided?


----------



## Artfuldodger

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Gem, thanks for your pm the other day.
> 
> Can't believe your still trying to argue with this crowd. lol. They just don't see it. But I wish more people were Hardshell.



My mom's ancestors are buried at New Hope Baptist Church in Ambrose. I guess since they had "Hope" they were free-willers.  
My Dad's ancestors are buried at Arnie Primitive Baptist Church in Mora. I guess they are of the "Elect" believers. I don't have a choice. It was decided long ago that I  would be a free-will believer and like grits. My Great Grandfather ran a Gristmill in Ambrose. He was a "Holy Roller" preacher at Gully Branch Church.


----------



## gemcgrew

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Gem, thanks for your pm the other day.


You're welcome friend. Continued prayer for your family.



CollinsCraft77 said:


> Can't believe your still trying to argue with this crowd. lol.


It ain't for wimps, that is for sure. BTW, where have you been?


----------



## Artfuldodger

The Primitive Baptists can be sub-divided into four main groups:

1)Absolute Predestinarians (known as "Absoluters")

2) Limited Predestinarians (known as "Conditionalists")

3) Progressive (known as "Progressives")

(4) Universalists. This last group is the smallest and consists of 5 or 6 small associations in Appalachia that adapted the theory of universal atonement to the doctrines of Primitive Baptists.



Interesting that my views of "limited free will" are "oxymoron"

I could be a oxymoron primitive Baptist Conditionalists.

High Calvinism - the belief in absolute predestination of all things, the belief that everything that exists or comes to pass does so due to the will and decree of God. 
Low Calvinism - the belief in either conditional or limited predestination or the absolute predestination of some things only, certainly not of all things. 
I could be a "low Calvinism"believer

Hyper (or Hybrid) Calvinism - The belief that God works independently of human means in the saving of sinners, the belief that regeneration precedes faith in Christ.

Hardshells have a sect that are High Calvinists (Absoluters) and a sect that are Low Calvinists. But, they all are Hyper Calvinists.

 Interesting divisions to say the least. Not that Hardshell's are the only Denomination that have divisions. Interesting from a historical view as my ancestors are "Primitive/Original"

So, if you are a predestinarian, you cannot come to me and say, “ Christ died for you.”

Interesting that my "limited free will views are "oxymorons"


----------



## Ronnie T

I don't even know 'what' I am, except a freewillin fellow that's been granted the beautiful grace of God through His glorious Son.

Actually, I think I'm also a "limited free willer".


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> So, if you are a predestinarian, you cannot come to me and say, “Christ died for you.”


That is correct. Nor would I tell somebody to "Smile, God loves you". I would however, tell somebody that "Christ died for His sheep".


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Just do a search...and bump the one that was started a couple years ago.    Think it was started by Banjo.



I wasn't here for that one.......seems you have issue with me starting new threads


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Gem, working and dealing with dad. A little hunting as well. I am an old school, hardshell Primitive Baptist. In a nutshell, Primitives we're called that because they refused to change.

Think about that for a second. They refused to change. Missionary (free will) Baptists were called New School Baptists. Why? They changed. Period.

Gem, I absolutely agree with you on 99.9% of all things you post. Maybe I'm the only one on here who does. I'm sure these guys are great guys but it gives me a headache watching someone say God does this if man accepts "x". Like he needs my permission. I put my trust in a perfect choice by a perfect God and I am so thankful that my eyes have seen the truth and I understand it.


----------



## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't think i've reached the point in my bible studies to "rightly divide the truth" and now i'm wondering if it makes any difference. Who would I teach if it's already decided?


 
I'm not suggesting you are saying this... but to go in the direction of not being able to glean anything except what we find in the word, 
well, 
to me that does disrespect to the Spirit of Grace.

Perhaps for another thread is the work of grace and faith as an outpouring of one's relationship with their Lord.

Yes, I said it.... You can actually hear His voice and not have your face glued to the book.  Structure and rigidity is an enemy of true spirituality an divine intimacy, 
and so is the law... now nailed to the cross.  What the rules could not do, He did,
bringing a means of holy perseverance (by _His work _of sanctification) to the hardest of hearts.  

But I am coming off of the main point, so I digress.


----------



## JB0704

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Like he needs my permission. I put my trust in a perfect choice by a perfect God and I am so thankful that my eyes have seen the truth and I understand it.



CC, I wish you posted in here more often.  I like reading the whole range of thoughts in here.

Giving God permission has nothing to do with a person believing an action is required by man for salvation.  That's a backwards way of looking at it.  We believe it is a condition God set in place.


----------



## centerpin fan

CollinsCraft77 said:


> ... Primitives we're called that because they refused to change.
> 
> Think about that for a second. They refused to change. Missionary (free will) Baptists were called New School Baptists. Why? They changed. Period.



Change is bad?  Without a very significant change (the Reformation), you'd be attending Mass this weekend.




CollinsCraft77 said:


> I'm sure these guys are great guys but it gives me a headache watching someone say God does this if man accepts "x".



1.  I am a great guy.  My mom can confirm.

2.  "If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." --2 Chron. 7:14


----------



## Artfuldodger

We all have changed from the "Early Church" even Catholics, but Protestants came from or left the Catholic Church. 
Any ideas on what the "Early Church" believed on election & OSAS. I have no idea, just wondering.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> That is correct. Nor would I tell somebody to "Smile, God loves you". I would however, tell somebody that "Christ died for His sheep".



Then there is no use to have an Invitation at the end of a Church service. Does your Church perform missionary work to reach the "Elect"? I know some Churches don't.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> I wasn't here for that one.......seems you have issue with me starting new threads



Just add that in for your research purposes.

btw...you listen to that sermon yet?  



centerpin fan said:


> Change is bad?  Without a very significant change (the Reformation), you'd be attending Mass this weekend.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.  I am a great guy.  My mom can confirm.



Good thing we had the reformation....considering that reformation day was this past week.  If not, we'd still be paying indulgences to try and get aunt suzy out of purgatory.

Oh...and I'll confirm it too...you're a great guy



Artfuldodger said:


> Then there is no use to have an Invitation at the end of a Church service. Does your Church perform missionary work to reach the "Elect"? I know some Churches don't.



No reason for an invitation.  Not because it is not needed, but why?  It has turned into a horse and pony show for the most part....trying to get people to make a quick/emotional decision that has no true meaning.  And we wonder why so many "fall away."

As far as church's not performing missionary work or outreach...what does the last few verses of Matthew say?  If they don't witness, they are in direct disobedience to what scripture says.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> btw...you listen to that sermon yet?



Not yet.  I have a back-log of sermons to listen too.  HAven't been able to block off time for any of them yet.  Gettin' there......


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> Not yet.  I have a back-log of sermons to listen too.  HAven't been able to block off time for any of them yet.  Gettin' there......



  Just listen to the first 15 minutes if that is all you can afford...or just read the passage Ps 139.  Goes into the omniscience of God.

I think that is where a lot of free-willers have to struggle.  If I can choose what I do in life, is God omniscient?


----------



## centerpin fan

rjcruiser said:


> Oh...and I'll confirm it too...you're a great guy



Mom will be happy to know she's not alone.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Just listen to the first 15 minutes if that is all you can afford...or just read the passage Ps 139.  Goes into the omniscience of God.
> 
> I think that is where a lot of free-willers have to struggle.  If I can choose what I do in life, is God omniscient?



Yes.  Absolutely.  It that's what the omniscient God directs that you do!  And he does.
Hundreds of times His holy word speaks to people choosing to do things.
Continually and constantly speaks to that very issue.
***********************************

Here's just one very good example.
Discuss it please.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

each one is tempted 
when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
(enticed by his own lust)

Then when lust has conceived, 
it gives birth to sin; and 
sin is accomplished, 
it brings forth death

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”

When you are tempted and sin, God has no hand in it.


----------



## StriperAddict

Ronnie T said:


> When you are tempted and sin, God has no hand in it.


 
Agreed. Otherwise we'd be citing the Almighty with evil.

This is also the problem I have with the hard line teaching on election.

Since I saw this thread I've been trying to find the article on the subject that brings this doctrine better into view.  I'd attempt to mention points, but I'm not fluent nor confident I'd do it justice.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Then there is no use to have an Invitation at the end of a Church service.


That is correct. Invitations or altar calls originated in the 19th century.




Artfuldodger said:


> Does your Church perform missionary work to reach the "Elect"? I know some Churches don't.


We would first have to define "missionary work". We do support men who are called of God to establish churches, train pastors etc.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> "If my people, who are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." --2 Chron. 7:14



Thank God that He grants repentance and brings us to it. If you back up 1 chapter to Solomon's prayer, you will see that repentance is the result, not the cause of God's grace.

BTW, I think 2 Chron. 7:14 is Al Gore's favorite verse.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Sorry for delay. No sir that is not a backwards way of looking at it.

God needing mans acceptance before he pursues his will is backwards. Just my opinion. 

God saved that which was lost. It is a purchased possession. The gospel brings this to light. 

You are granting God permission to save you when you believe in free will. Kind of like a contract. You know the fine print. By signing this document, you grant "x" permission to .......................

You in essence grant God the permission to save your soul BECAUSE you performed an action, basically your believing in his son. 

Like I said, just my opinion in everyday, 21st century terms. I don't buy it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> I think that is where a lot of free-willers have to struggle.  If I can choose what I do in life, is God omniscient?



So what you are saying in a roundabout way is that some peole are "BSAS" (born saved always saved) or born predestined to be save, always saved. It's not much different from "OSAS" to me. 

From what I gather Catholics don't believe in "OSAS".
Most Protestants believe in "OSAS".
Hardshells & some others believe in "BSAS" or at least in pre elected to be saved.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> 1Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add(free will) to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
> 6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
> 7 And to godliness brotherly kindness(free will); and to brotherly kindness charity.
> 8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
> 9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
> 10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things(free will), ye shall never fall:





Ronnie T said:


> 2 Corinthians 13:5-7
> 5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test? 6 And I trust that you will discover that we have not failed the test. 7 Now we pray to God that you will not do anything wrong(free will)—not so that people will see that we have stood the test but so that you will do what is right(free will) even though we may seem to have failed.



Free will.  Free will.  Free will.
Hundreds and hundreds of scripture concerning free will.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> If you back up 1 chapter to Solomon's prayer, you will see that repentance is the result, not the cause of God's grace.



I do not see that.


----------



## Ronnie T

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Gem, working and dealing with dad. A little hunting as well. I am an old school, hardshell Primitive Baptist. In a nutshell, Primitives we're called that because they refused to change.
> 
> Think about that for a second. They refused to change. Missionary (free will) Baptists were called New School Baptists. Why? They changed. Period.
> 
> Gem, I absolutely agree with you on 99.9% of all things you post. Maybe I'm the only one on here who does. I'm sure these guys are great guys but it gives me a headache watching someone say God does this if man accepts "x". Like he needs my permission. I put my trust in a perfect choice by a perfect God and I am so thankful that my eyes have seen the truth and I understand it.



Maybe having a "hardshell" "unmoveable" attitude can keep a person from delving into God's word and seeing the whole of what's there.

If the scripture says that a person sins outside of God's control and imprint, shouldn't a person be willing to accept that?


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> I do not see that.


That is why I continue to point it out.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Sorry Art, there currently are no openings available at Camp Hardshell.



I reckon you are saying this jokingly and if I showed up it would be because God lead me there.
But it made me wonder, are most of the Hardshell(elect) Christians the sons & daughters of "The Elect"? Does God usually elect generations of families? If so why did my ancestors quit going to a Primative Baptist Church? I shouldn't have to pay for anything they did.
Missionary Baptist children usually grow up to be Missionary Baptist but thay can change because of their free will as I have.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> That is why I continue to point it out.



It's a long prayer.  Feel "free" to be more specific.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> Yes.  Absolutely.  If that's what the omniscient God directs that you do!  And he does.
> Hundreds of times His holy word speaks to people choosing to do things.
> Continually and constantly speaks to that very issue.
> ***********************************
> 
> Here's just one very good example.
> Discuss it please.
> 
> James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
> 
> each one is tempted
> when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
> (enticed by his own lust)
> 
> Then when lust has conceived,
> it gives birth to sin; and
> sin is accomplished,
> it brings forth death
> 
> Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”
> 
> When you are tempted and sin, God has no hand in it.



Discuss it please.......    FREE WILL.
If you disagree with these verses, you need to explain.
You cannot ignore.


----------



## Artfuldodger

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things(free will), ye shall never fall:

OSAS?


----------



## JB0704

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Sorry for delay. No sir that is not a backwards way of looking at it.
> 
> God needing mans acceptance before he pursues his will is backwards. Just my opinion.
> 
> God saved that which was lost. It is a purchased possession. The gospel brings this to light.
> 
> You are granting God permission to save you when you believe in free will. Kind of like a contract. You know the fine print. By signing this document, you grant "x" permission to .......................
> 
> You in essence grant God the permission to save your soul BECAUSE you performed an action, basically your believing in his son.
> 
> Like I said, just my opinion in everyday, 21st century terms. I don't buy it.



Not unless god says "this is the condition to recieve X."  At which point you are simply meeeting his conditions.  It is the agreement.  If we are talking contracts, he says "you give x and I will grant y."  At no point are you giving permission to do anything, he already has it.  You are simply accepting terms.

And, in that sense, God is in no way diminished by my acceptance.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Discuss it please.......    FREE WILL.
> If you disagree with these verses, you need to explain.
> You cannot ignore.



I agree with those verses showing our free will by the temptations not being from God.
How does "Trials" fit in. Doesn't God do this? Either way even if it's God trying us, what purpose would it serve if he manipuplated us  to not do the right thing? Or if the outcome was him being a puppet master. Is his creation just a big very realistc video game?


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I reckon you are saying this jokingly and if I showed up it would be because God lead me there.


My poor attempt at humor. No offense intended.


Artfuldodger said:


> But it made me wonder, are most of the Hardshell(elect) Christians the sons & daughters of "The Elect"? Does God usually elect generations of families?


That is not my experience. I think there is a "trail of blood"(not to be confused with this, Clicky)
group of folks that attribute salvation to physical lineage. Not sure though.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Discuss it please.......    FREE WILL.
> If you disagree with these verses, you need to explain.
> You cannot ignore.


You can't have it both ways.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> You can't have it both ways.



And so again, you dont discuss it?????


----------



## Ronnie T

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie T  
Yes. Absolutely. If that's what the omniscient God directs that you do! And he does.
Hundreds of times His holy word speaks to people choosing to do things.
Continually and constantly speaks to that very issue.
***********************************

Here's just one very good example.
Discuss it please.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

each one is tempted 
when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
(enticed by his own lust)

Then when lust has conceived, 
it gives birth to sin; and 
sin is accomplished, 
it brings forth death

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”

When you are tempted and sin, God has no hand in it. 

Discuss it please....... FREE WILL.
If you disagree with these verses, you need to explain.
Why would you no eagerly discuss those verses?
_________________
That better?


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> Yes. Absolutely. It that's what the omniscient God directs that you do! And he does.



So...God directs us to choose what we choose?  Hmm...sounds like He is pre-determining what we will do.

If we have free-will, can I choose something that God doesn't direct me to do?




Ronnie T said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Ronnie T
> Yes. Absolutely. If that's what the omniscient God directs that you do! And he does.
> Hundreds of times His holy word speaks to people choosing to do things.
> Continually and constantly speaks to that very issue.
> ***********************************
> 
> Here's just one very good example.
> Discuss it please.
> 
> James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
> 
> each one is tempted
> when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
> (enticed by his own lust)
> 
> Then when lust has conceived,
> it gives birth to sin; and
> sin is accomplished,
> it brings forth death
> 
> Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”
> 
> When you are tempted and sin, God has no hand in it.
> 
> Discuss it please....... FREE WILL.
> If you disagree with these verses, you need to explain.
> Why would you no eagerly discuss those verses?
> _________________
> That better?



I think you are mis-interpreting that scripture.

Why?  Because of how Job was tempted.  Did God allow that?  Did God cause that?

What about I Cor 10:13?

No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.


So, God doesn't cause temptation, but He divinely allows it?  Isn't that being in total control?


----------



## Ronnie T

You think I'm misinterpreting that scripture????
It is not possible to misinterpret that scripture.

One might not believe what it says.
One might ignore it.
But no one can misinterpret that scripture.


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> You think I'm misinterpreting that scripture????
> It is not possible to misinterpret that scripture.
> 
> One might not believe what it says.
> One might ignore it.
> But no one can misinterpret that scripture.



Okay...let me edit my post and let's try this again.

Please answer the questions.  You wanted discussion...let's discuss.



rjcruiser said:


> So...God directs us to choose what we choose?
> 
> If we have free-will, can I choose something that God doesn't direct me to do?
> 
> 
> 
> Why?  Because of how Job was tempted.  Did God allow that?  Did God cause that?
> 
> What about I Cor 10:13?
> 
> No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
> 
> 
> So, God doesn't cause temptation, but He divinely allows it?  Isn't that being in total control?


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> It is not possible to misinterpret that scripture.


Of coarse it is or we wouldn't be having this conversation. 
James is not discussing sovereignty and human freedom. He is not discussing metaphysics. He is discussing faith and responsibility from our perspective. If he is discussing metaphysics, he is contradicting much scripture.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> And so again, you dont discuss it?????


Come on Ronnie, you had to have chuckled when you read post 224. Please say its so.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Ok. Without going into this verse says this and this verse says that, here is my churches position. It covers both election and free will.

God made mankind. God elected out of that lump to save a portion. Portion not being used as small here but as Abraham was promised, as grains of sand and as many as the stars.

Ok, Christ came and died for the elect. He saved the entirety of the elect on that day. 

There's your election and predestination. 

Concerning free will. Man, both elect and reprobate have a free will. Absolutely. Come as you wish, do what you want, etc. though the elect's eternal salvation is already completed, until he is born again, he can not see God not have fellowship. He is spiritually dead in trespasses and sins. Just like the non elect. He will not do right, etc. Now how does he be one aware of God and just who he is? God quickeneth, according to his will and the elect become aware, they are now able to commune with God. Most of you think this is when you accept God as Saviour they Christ Jesus the Son. The problem with that is until God awakens you as to who you really are, you are incapable of seeing it. The Bible doesn't say half dead in sins and trespasses, but dead. You show me one dead man with the ability to choose until he is made alive? It's impossible. But afterwards, man still can choose. He can still choose to walk away as best he can. He can curse God, despise God, steal. Sure. God does not cause these things. What it does do is put the elect at odds with God and the fellowship is strained and who can they turn too? God knows this. Some will repent. Some will not. Free will is absolutely for this world. You can choose to fellowship with God or you can walk away. Same as Israel. Still God's beloved. Still God's chosen. Nothing changed eternally. Couldn't. God has finished that. 

We can quote verse all day long. Everybody can twist this and that. 

Thing is both election and free will are taught in the Bible. If you believe man chooses, then Gods election is according to mans choice, not his will. 

The Bible says it is Gods will that all be saved. Correct? But we know that all will not be saved.

So is God's will faulty? Or as I believe, he does do his will and all will be saved. Those whom he elected to save. 

And look guys, I know a lot don't believe this anymore. But once you see it, it's just impossible to go the other way. I know you guys are probably better "elects" than I am. You can not exercise this faith unless you have the Spirit because faith is the fruit of the Spirit. Not Spirit as the fruit of faith.

Jmho


----------



## centerpin fan

CollinsCraft77 said:


> And look guys, I know a lot don't believe this anymore. But once you see it, it's just impossible to go the other way.



My minister is a former Calvinist.  I'll have to ask him what changed his mind.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

I was a missionary. The Bible changed mine.


----------



## hummerpoo

I had never heard of anything but, walk the isle, sign the card, say the prayer, and your saved, until I read the Bible.  I posted once before that I was so shocked when I heard RC Spoul talking reformed theology that I had to pull off the road.  That’s been many years ago and I still haven’t found a church that teaches it straight up.


----------



## Ronnie T

So, still noone gonna discuss this verse.
*******************************
Here's just one very good example.
Discuss it please.

James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
each one is tempted 
when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
(enticed by his own lust)

Then when lust has conceived, 
it gives birth to sin; and 
sin is accomplished, 
it brings forth death

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”

When you are tempted and sin, God has no hand in it. 

Discuss it please....... FREE WILL.
If you disagree with these verses, you need to explain.
Why would you not eagerly discuss those verses?


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Ronnie, I get your drift about the hardshell. I equate a comment like that to the television. Just because it's become acceptable to sit with your kids and watch sex and violence in tv, a relatively new concept, I'm not gonna do it. And just because someone decided in the Baptist church to start promoting free will doesn't make it right nor acceptable. Thus I'll stay a hardshell.

So change for the sake of change is not in my book an acceptable reason to change. Plus hardshell sounds kind of cool!


----------



## gemcgrew

I remember picking up a tract somewhere. The title read "Mourn, God May Hate You". There was a picture of men, women and babies crying out while they were drowning. As Noah's ark was floating by, the bumper sticker read "Smile, God Loves You". I could not help but read it. Very similar to this one. Mourn, God May Hate You!


----------



## CollinsCraft77

When my kids do wrong, or my spouse makes me angry, ever give them the silent treatment?


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Believe I said you have free will. It just has nothing to do with saving your soul.

It has everything to do with having relationship with God. Stay sinful and we all know how it feels to be without him. Kind of like a death isn't it?


----------



## CollinsCraft77

My point is I can bust my kids rump for being bad. To them it feels like death, being in trouble. And I may be hard on them. We might not talk for awhile.

But they don't stop becoming my children. I don't stop loving them. But they choose to be bad sometimes. Guess I should kick them out and never love them again.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> So, still noone gonna discuss this verse.


Please see post #230.


----------



## gemcgrew

CollinsCraft77 said:


> My point is I can bust my kids rump for being bad. To them it feels like death, being in trouble. And I may be hard on them. We might not talk for awhile.
> 
> But they don't stop becoming my children. I don't stop loving them. But they choose to be bad sometimes. Guess I should kick them out and never love them again.


My daughter was very defiant and rebellious when faced with punishment. If I was to gently scold my son, you would have thought I had killed him. As I type this, my daughter is out on the front porch, reading the Bible. 

Because she wants to!


----------



## centerpin fan

CollinsCraft77 said:


> I was a missionary. The Bible changed mine.



He taught at a seminary, so I'm sure the Bible had something to do with his conversion as well.


----------



## gemcgrew

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Plus hardshell sounds kind of cool!


But not near as cool as Hyper-Calvinist. But I think they are just Hardshell'rs on Red Bull.


----------



## mtnwoman

rjcruiser said:


> So, God doesn't cause temptation, but He divinely allows it?  Isn't that being in total control?



If we act on tempation, since God allows it, are we working on our free will or His by sinning?


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> My daughter was very defiant and rebellious when faced with punishment. If I was to gently scold my son, you would have thought I had killed him. As I type this, my daughter is out on the front porch, reading the Bible.
> 
> Because she wants to!



Reading by her own choice or because God made her?


----------



## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree with those verses showing our free will by the temptations not being from God.
> How does "Trials" fit in. Doesn't God do this? Either way even if it's God trying us, what purpose would it serve if he manipuplated us  to not do the right thing? Or if the outcome was him being a puppet master. Is his creation just a big very realistc video game?



Every time we speak...we speak for some purpose. All of creation is making a statement.

Everything we say, do, perform...in some way or another...is a testimony.

Does not God, who is free, and hears all, have the right to respond?
As believers...we say...Jesus is Lord. Does not God have the right to respond to what we say? Is he not free to show us what it means to "say that"?

Likewise, when one declares..."there is no God, and Jesus is the figment of imagination" is not God free to show the "meaning" of that?

For me, inclusive in the confession of Jesus Christ is an invitation implicit to his Father...whom, by my confession, I likewise acknowledge as my Father.  

Have I not then declared the freedom for that Father to show what it means to be his son? The tests and trials of faith _are already_ "in Christ"...I simply invite them by my acknowledging him as Lord. To be honest...my first confession was very much oblivious to these. But, God (our Father) is faithful. And I find a faithful "helper" (as promised), who, when these trials present themselves as something which may at first seem foreign to what I considered it meant to "be" in Christ...will take me to the precise place where I discover Jesus first underwent these things first.
Rejections, betrayals, discovery of inability of self, frustrations and deep troubles of soul... till I discover "my" own will must make way...

In like manner...a man may say "I reject Christ"...is God limited to not show him what his statement entails? The rejection of ALL mercy, comfort, spiritual fellowship...wisdom...perhaps until such a man may even come to his senses? Even in the deep vexations that come when God turns a man over to "his own" ways?

Need God apologize for displaying the truth we don't see...or know? For the believer...the comfort of the Holy Spirit is there to encourage and strengthen.


Any man may say "I am free to say what I want!"...God simply enjoys the same freedom that man declares as truth in his own saying.
The difference is of course...God's word is God's power...he speaks...and all of creation testifies of the the reality of his word. 
A man may, even by grace, learn his "own" words are as nothing...and there come to see the One who came to neither speak his own word, do his own will...or seek his own way.
In repentance and rest is our salvation. 
Trying to prove God a liar is where everything outside of rest...resides.
Everything we say and do is a planting...and we will be the first to eat of it.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Reading by her own choice or because God made her?


She has never shown much interest, so I have to go with God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> She has never shown much interest, so I have to go with God.



Were your parents elected? Are your children elected?
I'm still trying to figure out if it is a generational election.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Were your parents elected? Are your children elected?
> I'm still trying to figure out if it is a generational election.


My mom showed evidence of it. I watched her body die slowly at home. The evidence of Grace in her life was truly amazing. My children have not shown much interest at this point. I have not, nor will I, try to produce a profession of faith from them. I do not see a generational election but God always maintains a remnant. "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." (Romans 11:5)


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> My mom showed evidence of it. I watched her body die slowly at home. The evidence of Grace in her life was truly amazing. My children have not shown much interest at this point. I have not, nor will I, try to produce a profession of faith from them. I do not see a generational election but God always maintains a remnant. "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." (Romans 11:5)



My parents never tried to get me to either. I think when the Holy Spirit gets in them whether they have a belief in election or free will they will accept the call or recieve the gift. Either way they are saved is the important thing.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I think when the Holy Spirit gets in them whether they have a belief in election or free will they will accept the call or recieve the gift.


Good point. I have said it before, but embracing election or rejecting freewill, is not salvation.


----------



## JB0704

Wow, guys.

Personally, I don't do the "silent treatment" thing.  Everybody parents different, and as Gem said, every kid is different.  But I am more into communication than ignoring.  I guess I get the relevance to God.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand......

Gem, vessel of wrath or vessel of mercy.  When do you know your one and not the other?  Full disclosure.....I'm going somewhere with this........


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Good point. I have said it before, but embracing election or rejecting freewill, is not salvation.



Accepting the holy spirit?


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Please see post #230.



Like I said, no one has discussed that verse.


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> Reading by her own choice or because God made her?





gemcgrew said:


> She has never shown much interest, so I have to go with God.



gemc, you got to admit, that was pretty good comeback from mtnwoman.  So I'm givin her a ...


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> gemc, you got to admit, that was pretty good comeback from mtnwoman.  So I'm givin her a ...


I thought so as well.


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Accepting the holy spirit?


Receiving.


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Gem, vessel of wrath or vessel of mercy.  When do you know your one and not the other?  Full disclosure.....I'm going somewhere with this........


Vessel of mercy, when you are born again. I can't speak for the vessel of wrath, I never was one. But I would imagine it will be when they are faced with the reality of it.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Like I said, no one has discussed that verse.


You are not being totally honest here. Rj and I have addressed that verse. Now, maybe it is not to your liking or perhaps I need to go into more depth in regards to my Biblical worldview. God is omnipotent. He controls all things. All things includes everything without exception. If there is anything outside of his control, he ceases to be God. He is the Creator of all things and rules all things. 
In the beginning God....
If you want to challenge him, go for it. But remember, "Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?"

Ronnie, I think we both know where this is headed. Personally speaking, I prefer not to get there.


----------



## Artfuldodger

How does a freewillie believer reconcile an all knowing God with who gets saved and who doesn't? If God already knows what your Free will choice will be. How is that any different than election? It would appear that you really didn't have a choice after all.  I know the answer from all the previous post but refresh everyone's memory. Something like "God knows your choice, but it was your decision. If I ask my son if he wants grape or cherry Koo-laid, I know beforehand that he will choose cherry. I didn't choose cherry for him, I just knew beforehand what he would choose.
I really and truly don't have an answer. 
It's one of those mysteries like "OSAS" & the "Trinity". I don't buy the logic that if I can find Bible verses "for or against" something, i'm trying to "divide the Truth". Christians on this forum do it all the time. 
The only thing I can come up with is: read the Bible with guidance from the Holy Spirit and form your own opinions. That alone is enough to believe in free will. Why would God create man to become Christians, Atheist, Catholics, Protestants, Baptists(Hardshell & Missionary), Methodist, Republicans, and Democrats? 
Then to even it out he made: wife beaters, Mother rapers,  Father stabbers, & Father rapers.


----------



## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> How does a freewillie believer reconcile an all knowing God with who gets saved and who doesn't? If God already knows what your Free will choice will be. How is that any different than election? It would appear that you really didn't have a choice after all.  I know the answer from all the previous post but refresh everyone's memory. Something like "God knows your choice, but it was your decision. If I ask my son if he wants grape or cherry Koo-laid, I know beforehand that he will choose cherry. I didn't choose cherry for him, I just knew beforehand what he would choose.
> I really and truly don't have an answer.
> It's one of those mysteries like "OSAS" & the "Trinity". I don't buy the logic that if I can find Bible verses "for or against" something, i'm trying to "divide the Truth". Christians on this forum do it all the time.
> The only thing I can come up with is: read the Bible with guidance from the Holy Spirit and form your own opinions. That's enough to believe in free will. Why would God create man to become Christians, Atheist, Catholics, Protestants, Baptists(Hardshell & Missionary), Methodist, Republicans, and Democrats?
> Then to even it out he made: wife beaters, Mother rapers,  Father stabbers, & Father rapers.



Suppose God just created children?
And he wants us to see something that is so wonderful, so stunning, so outrageously (to us) remarkable...that he even allows his children to call themselves the above mentioned things at certain times? And to even be as "far off the mark" as to see others that way, too?

And all of what we see and have experienced is to bring us to the precise place where we are able to see what he has always desired to show. (Once, out of ignorance and even shame at our own ignorance?) 
(When it pleased God to reveal his son in me)
But now, out of glimpsing something...that drives us too seek it in its fullness...even in and for "our own" flesh?

Suppose it is the very thing God delights in?
Have we even begun to taste what God's delight is like?
A man may really love Nascar...deer hunting...even his own wife and children...but what does it feel like to "share" God's delight? Maybe it is too much for mere flesh? Maybe when God speaks of joy and delight...it takes something very different than most of what we have known...kinda like asking a 12 gauge wire to carry 2 gazillion amps?

All things are created "for his good pleasure".
I know what it's like to have a Marlin on the line...leaping at the back of the boat...or hear a giggle from a mouth that was stopped in death...(yes, life is good)...but how good does "pure" life feel?

It's either: 

"God got bored...so he made us"

Or 

God is so not aware of what boredom is that he created children to share with him something that seems...for us now...so beyond our capability to contain ...he went into the renewing business.

Time wears out my knowledge of stuff. It gets stale...and leaves me hungry...again. (But even that...is not an unworthy start)

Fellowship, however, does a peculiar thing to time, boredom...even my own understanding...the oohs and ahhs of a child at a fireworks display doesn't even begin to approach it.

I am not even aware of asking..."gee...what could be next...?"

There's no "time" or "place" for that.


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## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> Why would God create man to become Christians, Atheist, Catholics, Protestants, Baptists(Hardshell & Missionary), Methodist, Republicans, and Democrats?



This has caused me to rethink my position.  I can't think of better "vessels of wrath" than the Democrats.  Maybe God _did_ create them just for that purpose.


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## gordon 2

centerpin fan said:


> This has caused me to rethink my position.  I can't think of better "vessels of wrath" than the Democrats.  Maybe God _did_ create them just for that purpose.



I just had a brilliant idea! to unite all the churches into at least two. All the Dems in this parking lot and all the Reps in the other... doctrines to be determined by the D's and the R's fundamentals. Both groups can have missions the the undecided--and still abide in the Great Commision.

It could make for a good zombie book?


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## JB0704

My thoughts on the vessels of wrath were that, though I grew up a believer, I was certain God hated me until I reached my mid-20's.  If I was "elected," I certainly wasn't aware of the mercy (though I am sure it was there, but people are all guilty of viewing their circumstances with bias).

Why was I blind to it?  If God opened my eyes, why weren't they opened to mercy?

......or, was I a vessel of wrath until my mid-20's?


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## JB0704

gordon 2 said:


> I just had a brilliant idea! to unite all the churches into at least two. All the Dems in this parking lot and all the Reps in the other... doctrines to be determined by the D's and the R's fundamentals. Both groups can have missions the the undecided--and still abide in the Great Commision.



No.  We can't have democrats in church......everybody knows that


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## gordon 2

JB0704 said:


> My thoughts on the vessels of wrath were that, though I grew up a believer, I was certain God hated me until I reached my mid-20's.  If I was "elected," I certainly wasn't aware of the mercy (though I am sure it was there, but people are all guilty of viewing their circumstances with bias).
> 
> Why was I blind to it?  If God opened my eyes, why weren't they opened to mercy?
> 
> ......or, was I a vessel of wrath until my mid-20's?



My first impression is that a stick ( fear and wrath) is a motivator. It belongs to the world and Godless it is wrath. God's wrath being his absence in the life of individuals and communities--and humans left to their "Lord of the flies" world.

On the other hand, Love is a motivator. ( The heart has reasons it does not always know.) It belongs to the spiritual world where individuals and communites abide with God ( in His ways)...and  recieve His blessings....

Or dung in dung out...and what you put in it, is what you get out of it. If you are fed fear you will dish out fear. If you are fed peace and justice you will share them.


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## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> My thoughts on the vessels of wrath were that, though I grew up a believer, I was certain God hated me until I reached my mid-20's.  If I was "elected," I certainly wasn't aware of the mercy (though I am sure it was there, but people are all guilty of viewing their circumstances with bias).


What do you mean by "I grew up a believer"?



JB0704 said:


> ......or, was I a vessel of wrath until my mid-20's?


No


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## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> What do you mean by "I grew up a believer"?



The only time I didn't believe in God was a period of quesitoning in my early 20's.  I never really doubted Jesus during my early years.  According to the Baptists, I was good to go by 11.


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## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> The only time I didn't believe in God was a period of quesitoning in my early 20's.  I never really doubted Jesus during my early years.  According to the Baptists, I was good to go by 11.


The only reason I ask is that some folks equate "acknowledging God exist" with the new birth. Most Baptist are "make a decision for Jesus" and if you repeat after me, get baptized, you are good to go and don't let anybody tell you different.


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## hummerpoo

Since you guys got me started on this thing I thought I might as well post it.

James 1

Testing Your Faith
 1.  James, a bond-servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,  To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad: Greetings.
2. Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,
This is a leader, preacher, teacher, profit, elder (take your choice) addressing people whom he assumes to be saved.  He prepares them for an instruction in discipleship by informing them of the life situation he is about to address.

3. knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance. or patience
This is why you will face this life situation and why you should look forward to it with joy.

4. And let endurance have {its} perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
This is what sanctification is all about, to prepare you for God's purpose, not for self assurance (see vs. 18, 23, 24).

5. But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
“The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom”.  The audience is saved, therefore, wisdom is available.  “All” is obviously not all of humanity.

6. But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind.
7. For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord,
8. {being} a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
Qualifies “all” and prepares the audience for self assessment.

9. But the brother of humble circumstances is to glory in his high position;
10. and the rich man {is to glory} in his humiliation, because like flowering grass he will pass away.
11. For the sun rises with a scorching wind and withers the grass; and its flower falls off and the beauty of its appearance is destroyed; so too the rich man in the midst of his pursuits will fade away.
Faith is the great equalizer, again qualifying “all” and informing the audience.

12. Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which {the Lord} has promised to those who love Him.
The reward of a crown to be laid before the creator.  Thus the joy of him who is tried. He loves God so the more he can do, no mater the cost, to honor Him is good. Compare to Rm. 8:28. 

At this point in the passage there is a change, not a major change, but an adjustment indicated by a word.  The Greek word translated trial in vss 2 and 12 is not the same as the one translated tempted and tempt in vss. 13 and 14 (God cannot be tempted is neither).  Though closely related, the first carries the idea of an underlying positive intent while the second carries an underlying negative intent (1 Cor. 10:13 where both are used is an example).

13. Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
While the earlier “trial” might be an illness or financial challenge, this tempting is an inducement to sin such as anger related to the illness or an opportunity to cheat or steal to relieve the financial strain.

14. But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust.
Lust or desire is of the flesh not the spirit; the flesh is of self the spirit is of God; 

15. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
This is an instruction in discipleship (edification).

16. Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
17. Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.
When God calls His own to Himself He does not leave each individual in the wilderness, which is the world, alone to figure the whole thing out for himself.  He has established a whole system of support (teachers, profits, etc.).  The wisdom provided by God (vs. 5) includes the discernment of teaching, the interpretation of scripture, through the indwelling Holy Spirit, that allows us to recognize the lust of the flesh for what it is and the blessing of the Spirit, even in the form of a trial.

18. In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.
This is evangelism. 

19. {This} you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak {and} slow to anger;
20. for the anger of man does not achieve the righteousness of God.
This is what makes evangelism work, it's sometimes called lifestyle ministry.  God's called, living out God's righteousness, through the guidance and power of God's Spirit. 

21. Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and {all} that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.
Obviously the unsaved have not been given the above instruction.

22. But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.
23. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror;
24. for {once} he has looked at himself and gone away, he has immediately forgotten what kind of person he was.
Pretenders will not succeed.  Hearers of the word can act out what is described but the fruit that they produce will be the fruit of the flesh (e.g. churches that look like the world).  Doers of the word have eliminated the flesh (by the Spirit) and therefore, produce fruit of the Spirit (vss, 19 and 20)

25. But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the {law} of liberty,free from sin and a slave to Christ and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.
For blessing see vs. 12.

26. If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his {own} heart, this man's religion is worthless.
This refers to boasting.

27. Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of {our} God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, {and} to keep oneself unstained by the world.
Pretty simple instruction … why?  Because God requires “pure and undefiled”.  Our instruction is “don't sweat the big stuff”, you can't handle it.  It is God through His people that will handle the big stuff.

It would be very easy to see vss. 26 and 27 as a warning against more than just boasting.  “Deceives his own heart” could be interpreted as taking credit for what God had done, which some define as the unforgivable sin.


This passage is tied to Romans 5:3 by “endurance” or “patience” in vs. 3.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Were your parents elected? Are your children elected?
> I'm still trying to figure out if it is a generational election.


Art, one thing I wanted to add to my response is John 1:13, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."


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## Artfuldodger

I had to work all night & sleep all day but there was some great responses today. I like Israel's post on God's view of us as children. Jesus talks about children in many verses and stories. I like the idea that maybe God knew his creation was so great that he wanted to share it with us and made children to share his creation and glorify him.

The vessels of wrath are Libertarians.(haha)

One thing I thought about reading the responses was: Does God punish Christians while they are on the Earth?

I like Hummerpoos post on James. James show that we do have free will. It might not prove "Election" but it does prove freewill. Colinscraft did say he believes in election & Free will. (I think that is his belief)
In reading those verses in James I saw trials,testing your faith, persevere under trial, tempted by EVIL, do not be decieved, prove yourself doers, & do not doubt, bridle your tongue. (things that we must do ourselves). You can ask God for help as in the verse about wisdom.
Now as a Christian and you don't follow these instructions?

John 1:13, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." 
(I'll have to think about that one. Jesus was born of flesh and God.)


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> It might not prove "Election" but it does prove freewill.



Interesting ... the only possible man initiated or accomplished action I saw was possibly the choosing of which orphans and widows to visit.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I like Hummerpoos post on James. James show that we do have free will. It might not prove "Election" but it does prove freewill.


When you say "freewill", what exactly are you saying the "will" is free of?


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## gemcgrew

hummerpoo said:


> Interesting ... the only possible man initiated or accomplished action I saw was possibly the choosing of which orphans and widows to visit.


You looked harder than I did. But then we would have to ask, "who made the orphans and widows?" and "who created the desire within us to visit them?"


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> John 1:13, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
> (I'll have to think about that one. Jesus was born of flesh and God.)


Ok, you may have just dived a lot deeper into our discussion than I was prepared to go. Nevertheless, please come back and get me so that we may travel together.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> When you say "freewill", what exactly are you saying the "will" is free of?



I would say the key word is "choice" as in Hummerpoo's example: This is a leader, preacher, teacher, profit, elder (take your choice) 

When presented with a "trial from God" or "temptation from evil" one is presented with various paths to take. Depending on which path one takes, will determine his future. If there was only one path to "choose" it wouldn't be a choice as it was already determined. This would make verses in the Bible about  trials, temptations, instructions, commandments, prayer, asking, guidance, and "IF you do this action, God will do this action", Null &Void.
So it would have to be a "free choice" and require something from Me to be done. Example "if I believe", there is something "Art" has to do.

There are about as many different free will views as there is in the post where I listed the different views on Hardshell Baptist. (I like that name to although I prefer Freewill Baptist) they don't have to go to church if they don't want to. (joke)

Some free will believers, in a way to justify a way around the Omni_____ of God, believe that God can foresee the outcome of the various paths one would choose for each occurring event. Say in each situation you are given 3 choices with 3 different outcomes, God already knows the chain of event for each. Some free will believers believe God doesn't make your choices but he already knew what my choice would be. Example, if I went to my closet and had a red shirt and a blue shirt and chose the red one, God knew from the beginning of time that I would choose the red one. Another example is that God already knows who will "choose" Jesus as their Saviour. Sounds very similar to "Election" doesn't it?

The will is free to make a choice.


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## barryl

A.D. your allegory was exactly right. I have noticed no one has had the guts to mention this elect{Calvinistic Philosophy} carryings on isn't even Biblical. For example, John 3:16, 1 Tim. 2:4,Romans 10:13 just to name 2 or 3 there is a bushel basket of others. I know everyone is gonna say that is just your interpretation,well, it's yours too if you believe the Bible.Your eternal destiny is fixed once you are in Christ. God is not going to save you against your {free} will. Salvation is a free gift, all you gotta do is recieve it.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I would say the key word is "choice" as in Hummerpoo's example: This is a leader, preacher, teacher, profit, elder (take your choice)
> 
> When presented with a "trial from God" or "temptation from evil" one is presented with various paths to take. Depending on which path one takes, will determine his future. If there was only one path to "choose" it wouldn't be a choice as it was already determined.


"Therefore, behold, I will hedge up thy way with thorns, and make a wall, that she shall not find her paths. (Hosea 2:6)


Artfuldodger said:


> This would make verses in the Bible about  trials, temptations, instructions, commandments, prayer, asking, guidance, and "IF you do this action, God will do this action", Null &Void.
> So it would have to be a "free choice" and require something from Me to be done. Example "if I believe" something "Art" has to do.


"A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps." (Proverbs 16:9)
"The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will." (Proverbs 21:1)


Artfuldodger said:


> Some free will believers, in a way to justify a way around the Omni_____ of God, believe that God can foresee the outcome of the various paths one would choose for each occurring event. Say in each situation you are given 3 choices with 3 different outcomes, God already knows the chain of event for each. Some free will believers believe God doesn't make your choices but he already knew what my choice would be. Example, if I went to my closet and had a red shirt and a blue shirt and chose the red one, God knew from the beginning of time that I would choose the red one.


"..... for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: ..... yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." (Isaiah 46:9-11)


Artfuldodger said:


> Another example is that God already knows who will "choose" Jesus as their Saviour. Sounds very similar to "Election" doesn't it?


No. It sounds opposite. "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple." (Psalms 65:4)


Artfuldodger said:


> The will is free to make a choice.


"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

Art, I just wanted to post the scriptures that come to mind as I read your thoughts. God exercises control over our thoughts and actions.


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## gemcgrew

barryl said:


> I have noticed no one has had the guts to mention this elect{Calvinistic Philosophy} carryings on isn't even Biblical.


Let me know if you need more.

  "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple."(Psalms 65:4)

 "O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen."(Psalms 105:6)

 "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."(Matthew 24:24)

 "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."(Matthew 24:31)

 "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days."(Mark 13:20)

 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."(John 6:37)

 "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."(John 6:65)

 "I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me."(John 13:18)

 "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."(John 15:16)

 "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."(John 17:9)

 "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."(Acts 13:48)

 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."(Romans 8:29-30)

 "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."(Romans 8:33)

 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."(Romans 9:11-13)

 "And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"(Romans 9:23)

 "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."(Romans 11:5)

 "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded"(Romans 11:7)

 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."(Ephesians 1:3-6)

 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"(Ephesians 1:11)

 "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God."(1 Thessalonians 1:4)

 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"(1 Thessalonians 5:9)

 "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."(2 Thessalonians 2:13-14)

 "I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality."(1 Timothy 5:21)

 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:"(2 Timothy 1:9-10)

 "Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."(2 Timothy 2:10)

 "Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;"(Titus 1:1)

 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,"(1 Peter 1:1)

 "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"(1 Peter 2:9)

 "The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son."(1 Peter 5:13) 

KJV 1611 AV


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## Artfuldodger

I must say Gem, you're on a roll tonight, i'm impressed.
If my whole life is laid out for me, i'm beginning to wonder why do I need God? I thought I needed  his "help & guidance" in "trials & tribulations" but with God puppeteering my ever decision, i'll sleep better tonight knowing I won't have to make any more decisions. 
I know you aren't the "Son of God" but using your logic, do you see any difference from you & Jesus? God controlled everything Jesus and you do, so what's the difference? Sin? God made you sin? Did God make you sin so that he could send Jesus? Why didn't Jesus sin? What's the purpose of needing the Holy Spirit? Why does God call if we don't have a choice. Why didn't he make you born saved? In your way of looking at it he did. You can forget the Great Commision, it is useless.

John 1:13, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." 
What separates us form Jesus? Sin
Please explain sin. Please explain salvation.


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## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> Let me know if you need more.
> 
> "Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple."(Psalms 65:4)
> 
> "O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen."(Psalms 105:6)
> 
> "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect."(Matthew 24:24)
> 
> "And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."(Matthew 24:31)
> 
> "And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days."(Mark 13:20)
> 
> "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."(John 6:37)
> 
> "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."(John 6:65)
> 
> "I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me."(John 13:18)
> 
> "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you."(John 15:16)
> 
> "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."(John 17:9)
> 
> "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."(Acts 13:48)
> 
> "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."(Romans 8:29-30)
> 
> "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."(Romans 8:33)
> 
> "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth) It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."(Romans 9:11-13)
> 
> "And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"(Romans 9:23)
> 
> "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."(Romans 11:5)
> 
> "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded"(Romans 11:7)
> 
> "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved."(Ephesians 1:3-6)
> 
> "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"(Ephesians 1:11)
> 
> "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God."(1 Thessalonians 1:4)
> 
> "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"(1 Thessalonians 5:9)
> 
> "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."(2 Thessalonians 2:13-14)
> 
> "I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality."(1 Timothy 5:21)
> 
> "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:"(2 Timothy 1:9-10)
> 
> "Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."(2 Timothy 2:10)
> 
> "Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;"(Titus 1:1)
> 
> "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,"(1 Peter 1:1)
> 
> "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:"(1 Peter 2:9)
> 
> "The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son."(1 Peter 5:13)
> 
> KJV 1611 AV




I thought the "KJV 1611 AV" was a nice touch but, as St. Hilary of Poitiers said, "Scripture is not in the reading, but in the understanding."  I just disagree with your understanding of those passages.


----------



## Artfuldodger

A few more thoughts before bed.(I was born of God, but for some reason the man part of me is getting sleepy.) 
Adam sinned. I believe he had a choice. Because he sinned we needed a Savior. Jesus was born of man & God. Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit and went into the dessert without food. Adam lived the life of luxury. Jesus was in a desolate place without food. (I've never been without food except for fasting and I got really hungry.) Jesus had to do what Adam couldn't. He was tempted by the Devil. He didn't fail and eventually died for our sins. His LIFE was as important as his death. 
OK now the questions. 
1)Did Adam have a choice? Did Jesus? Jesus did what Adam didn’t. Both were tempted. Both made choices.
2)When Jesus was baptized, the Holy Spirit entered his body and he went into the desert.  Is that part of the reason Jesus didn't fail? (interesting that even as the Son of God he needed the Holy Spirit)
Side note: read more about the importance of the Holy Spirit.
3)Could Jesus have sinned? Did Jesus have free will?
4)Does Satan have free will? He rebeled in Heaven. How did he end up in the desert with Jesus?
5)God can not be tempted. Jesus was tempted.(just the man nature?) 
6)Would Jesus have sinned without the Holy Spirit's help?
7)Why do Christians sin since we have the Holy spirit's help?
8)Is God's will always done? If it is why pray to change things?

What i'm trying to show is, If we and Jesus are both born of God and both have the help of the Holy Spirit then where or what is the difference? Why did Jesus not sin and we do?
I'm starting to question God's will, Jesus' will, Satan's will, and most important MY will.
Gemcgrew makes an important argument and has the Bible verses to back them up. I've said on another post, if I put on his glasses, I can see what he is talking about. When I take them off and put on mine, I can see what i'm talking about. How do I know which one of us is "rightly dividing the truth"?

Is my belief in freewill going to have any effect on my salvation? It's not as important as the traditional "Trinity" belief is it? I would like to know if I chose my beliefs or if God chose my beliefs. If God why would he take me down the wrong path?


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I must say Gem, you're on a roll tonight, i'm impressed.
> If my whole life is laid out for me, i'm beginning to wonder why do I need God? I thought I needed  his "help & guidance" in "trials & tribulations" but with God puppeteering my ever decision, i'll sleep better tonight knowing I want have to make any more decisions.
> I know you aren't the "Son of God" but using your logic, do you see any difference from you & Jesus? God controlled everything Jesus and you do, so what's the difference? Sin? God made you sin? Did God make you sin so that he could send Jesus? Why didn't Jesus sin? What's the purpose of needing the Holy Spirit? Why does God call if we don't have a choice. Why didn't he make you born saved? In your way of looking at it he did. You can forget the Great Commision, it is useless.
> 
> John 1:13, "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."
> What separates us form Jesus? Sin
> Please explain sin. Please explain salvation.


Art, load the wagon and don't worry about the mule. 
As time permits, I am going to answer every one of your questions and address your statements. I am going to have to do it in segments.


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> KJV 1611 AV





I just caught that.....thanks for pointing it out CP.  Good stuff.


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Art, load the wagon and don't worry about the mule.
> As time permits, I am going to answer every one of your questions and address your statements. I am going to have to do it in segments.


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


>


I just hope that Art wasn't directing that 2nd group of questions to me. I'm thinking rjcruiser.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Art, load the wagon and don't worry about the mule.
> As time permits, I am going to answer every one of your questions and address your statements. I am going to have to do it in segments.



Never mind the Mule is blind, load the wagon and tow the line,
               I've got nothing but time.

I don't agree with you, but I use my freewill to learn from everyone and everything. My beliefs are mine and are formed from logical reading of the Bible, influenced with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Yours are given solely from God. I guess i'm talking directly to God when we converse.
God gives me and you the power to do things in his glory. The difference is I don't have to do it. I can refuse to bring others to Christ, help the poor, feed the hungry, and forgive others. I can receive punishment &  rewards. I can do all of these thing out of LOVE. I would not even know how to explain God, Jesus, & the Christian life without explaining love nor not having the ability to love.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> I just hope that Art wasn't directing that 2nd group of questions to me. I'm thinking rjcruiser.



Actually I would love to hear from everyone. I learn and change on a daily basis. I look beyond the realm of the norm.
The Holy Spirit is my guide. I've made it my conviction(choice) to look at everything through the eyes of a child. I'm enjoying the journey as much as the destination.
Jesus' life was as important as his death and to be more like him, I think mine is too.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Never mind the Mule is blind, load the wagon and tow the line,
> I've got nothing but time.
> 
> I don't agree with you, but I use my freewill to learn from everyone and everything. My beliefs are mine and are formed from logical reading of the Bible, influenced with the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Yours are given solely from God. I guess i'm talking directly to God when we converse.
> God gives me and you the power to do things in his glory. The difference is I don't have to do it. I can refuse to bring others to Christ, help the poor, feed the hungry, and forgive others. I can receive punishment &  rewards. I can do all of these thing out of LOVE. I would not even know how to explain God, Jesus, & the Christian life without explaining love nor not having the ability to love.



Ok, are you releasing me from my commitment to answer your questions?


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Ok, are you releasing me from my commitment to answer your questions?



No, I welcome your comments and fellowship on the forum. It is getting late so tomorrow would be better. We got a whole nother hour to debate!:


----------



## Israel

I think someone thought I was being facetious when I said I am saved by free will...just not my own.
I find a will very much influenced by circumstance, but I also see one, though definitely tried to the uttermost, that refuses itself.
When I am pressed I become very aware of my own will in a matter, and sorely seek to see it established. I don't want to go through, I want out. And it is precisely there I find someone promised who wants to show me something...he is so humble, I can dismiss him easily, and have, especially with something like "I don't think you see what's going on here, someone is dying and I don't have time to just stop and look at something."
I can't testify that I have ever done anything other than that.

Yet...
Unashamed of my seeming deliberate persistence to establish my own will, and often when I have eaten the fruit of it...this friend continues to show me someone seated above...and how he got there...even displaying a weakness he tells me I share with him...and by his dying in that weakness...I am able to see why I need someone to do for me what I could never do of my own self.
And I rejoice in his triumph.
Strangely, wonderfully, inexpressibly unreasonable to all I have yet known...I am convicted of a truth there, it is his will that I see His triumph...as my own.
Dare I deny him?
Dare we?

Could you not watch with me for one hour?
No, Lord, I didn't.
Take your rest...says the one who always knows far more about the weakness of the flesh than I even presume...for even sleeping near Jesus...he has covered in his grace.

Psa_17:15  As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness. 

Seeing Jesus waking me up is enough.


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Ok, are you releasing me from my commitment to answer your questions?



Come on, now......I was looking forward to it......


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Come on, now......I was looking forward to it......


A little patience is requested. 
There are times when I am confronted with one or many  questions. Then the Biblical response, in rejection or support of, floods my mind. This sometimes results in 800 mg ibuprofen, 1 Goody's powder and a 30 minute nap. My best answer is always to present scripture. What I try not to do is develop a long and poetic post that requires the reader to swim laps in Lake Ambiguity.


----------



## rjcruiser

gemcgrew said:


> I just hope that Art wasn't directing that 2nd group of questions to me. I'm thinking rjcruiser.



what questions?  I'm out for a couple of days...then come back and I don't want to have to go back and sift through the pages of replies.  I'll just say...they were for gem


I did see mtnwoman's question about do we as Christians choose to sin.

I think it is an interesting question.  But, it is a different argument.  I believe that this thread is dealing with non-Christians becoming Christians.  Christians have the Holy Spirit inside, they are spiritually alive...while before we are Christians, we are spiritually dead.

Dead people can't make any decisions.


----------



## Bama4me

rjcruiser said:


> what questions?  I'm out for a couple of days...then come back and I don't want to have to go back and sift through the pages of replies.  I'll just say...they were for gem
> 
> 
> I did see mtnwoman's question about do we as Christians choose to sin.
> 
> I think it is an interesting question.  But, it is a different argument.  I believe that this thread is dealing with non-Christians becoming Christians.  Christians have the Holy Spirit inside, they are spiritually alive...while before we are Christians, we are spiritually dead.
> 
> Dead people can't make any decisions.



So you're moving the discussion to depravity?  I find it very interesting the "dead people" of Acts 2:36 were told to "save yourselves from this crooked generation".  If they were "dead" and could make any decisions, why did Peter tell them this?


----------



## JB0704

Bama4me said:


> So you're moving the discussion to depravity?



.....that was going to be my next thread.....but, if this one goes that way, I may not need to start it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> what questions?  I'm out for a couple of days...then come back and I don't want to have to go back and sift through the pages of replies.  I'll just say...they were for gem
> 
> 
> I did see mtnwoman's question about do we as Christians choose to sin.
> 
> I think it is an interesting question.  But, it is a different argument.  I believe that this thread is dealing with non-Christians becoming Christians.  Christians have the Holy Spirit inside, they are spiritually alive...while before we are Christians, we are spiritually dead.
> 
> Dead people can't make any decisions.



It's after "election" that People get to make decisions. Does "free will" start at election or does the Holy Spirit make all decisions for Christians?


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> It's after "election" that People get to make decisions. Does "free will" start at election or does the Holy Spirit make all decisions for Christians?


Is it your love for Christ that constrains you or is it the love of Christ that constrains you? If the will is constrained, is it free?


----------



## rjcruiser

Amazing how these doctrines build on one another


----------



## Bama4me

JB0704 said:


> .....that was going to be my next thread.....but, if this one goes that way, I may not need to start it.



JB... it's been my belief for many years that the principles of Calvinism are built upon one another in much the same way as a house of cards.  When one principle is defeated, it fundamentally weakens the entire belief system.


----------



## rjcruiser

Bama4me said:


> JB... it's been my belief for many years that the principles of Calvinism are built upon one another in much the same way as a house of cards.  When one principle is defeated, it fundamentally weakens the entire belief system.



Interesting analogy.

I think of them more of like bricks of a solid foundation.  Lay them out and build upon them and you have a rock solid house.

Perspective...isn't a beautiful thing


----------



## Bama4me

rjcruiser said:


> Interesting analogy.
> 
> I think of them more of like bricks of a solid foundation.  Lay them out and build upon them and you have a rock solid house.
> 
> Perspective...isn't a beautiful thing



It is... happy to finally find someone who claims they must be accepted together - or not at all.  Most people I have talked to about the subject seem to want to keep open the option of separating the five principles... especially the idea of free will.  That may be, however, because there are a lot of free will baptist groups in the areas I've lived.


----------



## rjcruiser

Bama4me said:


> It is... happy to finally find someone who claims they must be accepted together - or not at all.  Most people I have talked to about the subject seem to want to keep open the option of separating the five principles... especially the idea of free will.  That may be, however, because there are a lot of free will baptist groups in the areas I've lived.



Never claimed they all have to be accepted together....but I do think you start to get into issues when you accept only one or two of them.  I do think that they build on each other as well.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Never claimed they all have to be accepted together....but I do think you start to get into issues when you accept only one or two of them.  I do think that they build on each other as well.



Intelligent design?


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> JB... it's been my belief for many years that the principles of Calvinism are built upon one another in much the same way as a house of cards.  When one principle is defeated, it fundamentally weakens the entire belief system.


In fairness to Calvinist, you may want to study up some. I think you are equating the 5 points with an entire belief system.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> Intelligent design?





Not following.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Not following.



Did God design it that way (building blocks), or did Calvin articulate God's design in a way God didn't in the Bible.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> In fairness to Calvinist, you may want to study up some. I think you are equating the 5 points with an entire belief system.



I have... for many years.  You misinterpreted my words.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> Did God design it that way (building blocks), or did Calvin articulate God's design in a way God didn't in the Bible.



Still not really following your question...but...here goes.

God designed perfect order.  Sin screwed that up...but still so many things in nature/life point to order.

I think Doctrine is one of those things.  You have Tier 1 items that build upon each other/fit together to paint a complete picture.  When you start to stray on one, it causes issues with others.  Just like this thread...free-will/predestination along with things like Omniscience/omnipotence.

Make sense?


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> I have... for many years.  You misinterpreted my words.


Perhaps so. If they also misinterpreted your words, they can respond to it.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> God designed perfect order.  Sin screwed that up...but still so many things in nature/life point to order.



....unless you are correct, then God designed the sin to screw up the perfect order 



rjcruiser said:


> I think Doctrine is one of those things.  You have Tier 1 items that build upon each other/fit together to paint a complete picture.  When you start to stray on one, it causes issues with others.  Just like this thread...free-will/predestination along with things like Omniscience/omnipotence.
> 
> Make sense?



Yes.

I was thinking......did God design Calvinism?  Since it is a system which relies on different parts, and each has difficulty without the other...or at least the basic premise of predestination, is that by design, or is that man's way of making sense of the design?

.....or.....

If TULIP is the order of the universe (which it attempts to describe), why isn't it laid out so clearly in the Bible?  If you are correct, the muddy water is intelligent design, if you are wrong, then it is man gettin' in the way of things.

I hope I am saying that correctly.....apologies if it still seems vague.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> ....unless you are correct, then God designed the sin to screw up the perfect order



God didn't design sin...but did allow it.  Why?  To allow His perfect redemptive plan to be shown through His Son, Jesus Christ.




			
				JB0704 said:
			
		

> Yes.
> 
> I was thinking......did God design Calvinism?  Since it is a system which relies on different parts, and each has difficulty without the other...or at least the basic premise of predestination, is that by design, or is that man's way of making sense of the design?
> 
> .....or.....
> 
> If TULIP is the order of the universe (which it attempts to describe), why isn't it laid out so clearly in the Bible?  If you are correct, the muddy water is intelligent design, if you are wrong, then it is man gettin' in the way of things.
> 
> I hope I am saying that correctly.....apologies if it still seems vague.



No...God didn't design Calvinism and no, Calvinism isn't the order of the universe.  TULIP is merely an acrostic meant to help explain doctrines that are taught in the Bible.  Now...they were taught by Calvin, but Calvinism has nothing to do with Calvin...but everything to do with what the Bible teaches.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Perhaps so. If they also misinterpreted your words, they can respond to it.



But only if it's God's will for them to do so.


----------



## JB0704

Without free will, sin is God's design.



rjcruiser said:


> No...God didn't design Calvinism and no, Calvinism isn't the order of the universe.



Sure it is. If there is no free will, then the order is that God micro-manages everything......including Calvin.  I'm referring to predestination here.....not the finer pioints of tulip.




rjcruiser said:


> TULIP is merely an acrostic meant to help explain doctrines that are taught in the Bible.  Now...they were taught by Calvin, but Calvinism has nothing to do with Calvin...but everything to do with what the Bible teaches.



But, wouldn't that be God's intent if Calvin is right?


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> Without free will, sin is God's design.



Who started Sin?  Lucifer, correct?  He is not human...but an angel.  And I don't think that Angels were/are constrained to the same set of rules that humans are.

Also, did Adam/Eve have the ability to choose sin/righteousness since they did not have a sin nature?



			
				JB0704 said:
			
		

> Sure it is. If there is no free will, then the order is that God micro-manages everything......including Calvin.  I'm referring to predestination here.....not the finer pioints of tulip.
> 
> But, wouldn't that be God's intent if Calvin is right?



Okay...now we're getting into semantics I think.  But, yes.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> But only if it's God's will for them to do so.


Absolutely


----------



## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> Who started Sin?  Lucifer, correct?  He is not human...but an angel.  And I don't think that Angels were/are constrained to the same set of rules that humans are.


But that will only ask the question "who created Lucifer?".



rjcruiser said:


> Also, did Adam/Eve have the ability to choose sin/righteousness since they did not have a sin nature?


And JB, did you choose to be in Adam?


----------



## Israel

I was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Why do some non Calvinist Churches believe in Perseverance of the Saints (OSAS)?

Don't some non Calvinest Churches believe that God set Adam up and the whole Old Testament was to prove that man couldn't follow commandments and would need a Savior? This was foretold in the Old Testament. We did discuss this on another post.


----------



## Ronnie T

Can a person make a conscious decision to remain ignorant of calvinist and tulip and still be in God's good grace?

.


----------



## gordon 2

Ronnie T said:


> Can a person make a conscious decision to remain ignorant of calvinist and tulip and still be in God's good grace?
> 
> .



I think therefore I see. If man was not made to have free will, then God would not have given man an imagination--for which the possibilites are not predictable and endless.

So Yes.... Is it possible to be fully intimate of calvinist and tulip and still be in God's bad grace?


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> Can a person make a conscious decision to remain ignorant of calvinist and tulip and still be in God's good grace?
> 
> .



I know what you're trying to get at and although it is twisted, I'll play.

Don't think of it as Calvinism.  Think of it as doctrine....goes back to the is Jesus God doctrine as well.

Can someone remain ignorant of God's omniscience and omnipotence and still go to heaven?  I don't think so.

Why?  To remain ignorant is not like a Christian.  If we are Christians, God has given us the desire to search out and know Him.  To remain ignorant is to do the opposite.  As such, I'd say you are like the Church at Laodicea.  Luke warm...neither hot nor cold...useless...a wolf in sheep's clothing.  Just like Judas.


----------



## Ronnie T

gordon 2 said:


> i think therefore i see. If man was not made to have free will, then god would not have given man an imagination--for which the possibilites are not predictable and endless.
> 
> So yes.... Is it possible to be fully intimate of calvinist and tulip and still be in god's bad grace?



         :d


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Can a person make a conscious decision to remain ignorant of calvinist and tulip and still be in God's good grace?


Can you reword the question? I find it to implode.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> I know what you're trying to get at and although it is twisted, I'll play.
> 
> Don't think of it as Calvinism.  Think of it as doctrine....goes back to the is Jesus God doctrine as well.
> 
> Can someone remain ignorant of God's omniscience and omnipotence and still go to heaven?  I don't think so.
> 
> Why?  To remain ignorant is not like a Christian.  If we are Christians, God has given us the desire to search out and know Him.  To remain ignorant is to do the opposite.  As such, I'd say you are like the Church at Laodicea.  Luke warm...neither hot nor cold...useless...a wolf in sheep's clothing.  Just like Judas.



Naw, my point was this.....
Didn't God detail it well enough for us?
Do we really need to ascribe the word "tulip" in order to absorb the simple, spirit inspired concepts of God's word. 

To be unaware of the details of tulip might  cause a person to be uninformed.  But it won't necessary infringe his Godly wisdom.  It might do the opposite.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Do we really need to ascribe the word "tulip" in order to absorb the simple, spirit inspired concepts of God's word.


Apparently John Calvin didn't.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> I know what you're trying to get at and although it is twisted, I'll play.
> 
> Don't think of it as Calvinism.  Think of it as doctrine....goes back to the is Jesus God doctrine as well.
> Can someone remain ignorant of God's omniscience and omnipotence and still go to heaven?  I don't think so.



It's very strange that Christians who believe in OSAS don't really believe it after all.

There are stipulations: Trinity and now predestination. As usual though there are no Bible verses that say I must believe in either to be saved. I don't have a problem with you believing in either but can ya'll free willers see the comparison to someone saying you must believe in either to be saved?


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> Naw, my point was this.....
> Didn't God detail it well enough for us?
> Do we really need to ascribe the word "tulip" in order to absorb the simple, spirit inspired concepts of God's word.
> 
> To be unaware of the details of tulip might  cause a person to be uninformed.  But it won't necessary infringe his Godly wisdom.  It might do the opposite.



That's like saying....do we really need to know the acrostic for the colors of the rainbow is Roy G Biv to know what the colors are?  Of course you don't need to know the acrostic.

But to know the acrostic helps one remember all of the colors.  Same with Calvin and his teachings.  Not that they determine salvation, but merely help with the knowledge of God and the Bible.

It amazes me how people have a hatred for Calvin and his teachings just because it is labeled Calvinism and doesn't allow for choice..which is just plain old "unAmerican."


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Can you reword the question? I find to implode.



The question was do we have to believe in John 3:16 and any of the five points of Calvinism to be saved?
I started a different post just to see what was required and I don't remember any responses to Calvinism or any of the five points by another name.
Must I also belive in OSAS to be saved?
Are there any other WORKS i'm not aware of for salvation? Maybe I need to believe that God called and I answered. I might need to believe that Jesus is the only way for me to meet God? Is baptized in the name of Jesus only a requirement?


----------



## rjcruiser

AD....I think that the key is that you are constantly striving to learn more.  Ronnie put purposeful ignorance.  I don't think you can be truly saved and have no fruit.  A desire to study and know will be a fruit of your salvation.

We are all learning more each and every day in our Christian walk.  To put a cap on what we "need to know" just because we've been saved by Faith alone is like sinning so we can obtain more of God's grace.  It just doesn't jive.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser;7353575
It amazes me how people have a hatred for Calvin and his teachings just because it is labeled Calvinism and doesn't allow for choice..which is just plain old "unAmerican.":rolleyes:[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> I don't think free will believers hate Calvin. We don't agree with him but we don't hate him. I don't think my salvation has anything to do with Calvin nor his beliefs nor your beliefs.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Why doesn't God elect more children of Buddhist parents? I guess God does elect the children of free will parents, they just don't know because of their ignorance.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't think free will believers hate Calvin. We don't agree with him but we don't hate him. I don't think my salvation has anything to do with Calvin nor his beliefs nor your beliefs.



I wasn't referring to you AD.  I've seen several SBC churches split over dislike for Calvin and the doctrine of Election/Predestination.  Call it dislike, disagreement...whatever, but if you can split a church over it, I call it hatred.  



Artfuldodger said:


> Why doesn't God elect more children of Buddhist parents?



Who are we to question God?


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> AD....I think that the key is that you are constantly striving to learn more.  Ronnie put purposeful ignorance.  I don't think you can be truly saved and have no fruit.  A desire to study and know will be a fruit of your salvation.
> 
> We are all learning more each and every day in our Christian walk.  To put a cap on what we "need to know" just because we've been saved by Faith alone is like sinning so we can obtain more of God's grace.  It just doesn't jive.



You are so correct. We must use our free will to "search out and know him", to "study & know", and to "learn". 
So I can assume you have at least the limited free will to do these things? If you do have this ability, how does it exist with God's foretold knowledge? God didn't make you "study, know, & learn" he just knew you would many years ago?


----------



## JB0704

My problem isn't with Calvin.....it's with the nature of the God described by him.  

RJ, would you then say that those of us "free-willers" are condemend because we do not see an interpretation of God similar to Calvin (I know it's loaded, but I'll play nice with the response)?  If we got it wrong, then we have God wrong.

My issues are many, but they start with T, which is for another thread.  But, the God you describe creates beings for torment.  By any standard, that would seem contrary to Jesus' nature.....and then we have to wonder why Jesus needed to be sacrificed in the first place.  It almost seems as an admission of failure on God's part if he designed it all.

If God is as you say, RJ, then he would have to have created Satan and evil with the intent to create the fall so that one day some kid would be born somewhere in Africa with no chance of ever hearing the gospel, living a life of starvation, forced military service, and a violent death only to burn for eternity.........is that love?  No.

Gem seems to indicate that God does not love those who he condemns.  I find that consistent, but not very comforting (and I understand that my comfort is not the point).  The inconsistency I see is the need for a savior.  If God designed it all, then he hung Jesus on the cross vicariously........then sent Judas to he11 for it.

Now, I know I opened a few cans of worms there, but hey, we've needed a good thread for a while here


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Who are we to question God?



Brother, I'm just lettin' ya know that responses like that came very close to having me toss the towel in on faith.  They lead me to believe that the only response to logic is stonewalling and questioning faith.

If God elects folks, it would make perfect sense that he would elect eskimos too.  

Gem, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember reading you say that you believe a lot of folks are elected who aren't Christian.....is that correct?  If so, would you elaborate your reasoning?

 I am convinced we are allowed to ask questions of God. I believe there are quite a few examples in the Bible......Jesus on the cross is the most glaring.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Did God create the problem & cure at the same time? Man has absolutely no part of problem nor the cure process. I have to agree with JB, it has no merit. I don't have all the answers with God being omni____, but everything being predestined makes me think I have no control. I might as well hoop & holler and carry on as a sinner, it's all in God's hands. He not only knew I would do this but he also controlled me to do it. If he controlled me to do it, how can he condemn me for doing it?


----------



## Artfuldodger

If you can't question God or his Word, then how does "search out & know him", & "study & learn" fit in to that concept. God predestined me to interpret the Bible the way I do. I had no choice.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> I wasn't referring to you AD.  I've seen several SBC churches split over dislike for Calvin and the doctrine of Election/Predestination.  Call it dislike, disagreement...whatever, but if you can split a church over it, I call it hatred.
> 
> And the split from the Catholic Church?
> 
> 
> Who are we to question God?



I thought ya'll might have verses to  God electing nations and family generations too.  Will the Jews be elected?


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> You are so correct. We must use our free will to "search out and know him", to "study & know", and to "learn".
> So I can assume you have at least the limited free will to do these things? If you do have this ability, how does it exist with God's foretold knowledge? God didn't make you "study, know, & learn" he just knew you would many years ago?



No...God gave me the HS that guides me to study.



JB0704 said:


> My problem isn't with Calvin.....it's with the nature of the God described by him.
> 
> RJ, would you then say that those of us "free-willers" are condemend because we do not see an interpretation of God similar to Calvin (I know it's loaded, but I'll play nice with the response)?  If we got it wrong, then we have God wrong.
> 
> My issues are many, but they start with T, which is for another thread.  But, the God you describe creates beings for torment.  By any standard, that would seem contrary to Jesus' nature.....and then we have to wonder why Jesus needed to be sacrificed in the first place.  It almost seems as an admission of failure on God's part if he designed it all.
> 
> If God is as you say, RJ, then he would have to have created Satan and evil with the intent to create the fall so that one day some kid would be born somewhere in Africa with no chance of ever hearing the gospel, living a life of starvation, forced military service, and a violent death only to burn for eternity.........is that love?  No.
> 
> Gem seems to indicate that God does not love those who he condemns.  I find that consistent, but not very comforting (and I understand that my comfort is not the point).  The inconsistency I see is the need for a savior.  If God designed it all, then he hung Jesus on the cross vicariously........then sent Judas to he11 for it.
> 
> Now, I know I opened a few cans of worms there, but hey, we've needed a good thread for a while here



lol...way to much to answer at 11PM.  But that is a very pessimistic view point.  You look at it seeing the negative...I look at it seeing the positive.

God created us to give Him glory and praise.  Sin entered the World, but God gave us a free gift to escape sin's penalty.  How wonderful is that gift?  How awesome is God's grace and mercy?



JB0704 said:


> Brother, I'm just lettin' ya know that responses like that came very close to having me toss the towel in on faith.  They lead me to believe that the only response to logic is stonewalling and questioning faith.
> 
> If God elects folks, it would make perfect sense that he would elect eskimos too.
> 
> Gem, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember reading you say that you believe a lot of folks are elected who aren't Christian.....is that correct?  If so, would you elaborate your reasoning?
> 
> I am convinced we are allowed to ask questions of God. I believe there are quite a few examples in the Bible......Jesus on the cross is the most glaring.



Oh...I understand what you're saying and I think it is perfectly fine to ask questions.  But you have to be careful in how you ask.  Just like how a child asks a question of you...it can be respectful, and disrespectful.  And how many times do you answer..."cause I'm your father."  


I think there are plenty of verses that state Total Depravity...so I don't see how you have an issue starting with T   But, in some sense, being a free-willer, you have to have issues with it....since in order to make a choice of faith, you have to have some sort of good within.



Could God have made it somehow different?  I guess so...but at the end of the day, He didn't.  It was in His plan to have sin enter the world through one man...and it was in His plan to have that sin be conquered by His Son dying on the cross and rising from the dead 3 days later.  So...because of that, there is no other way to Salvation, but through Jesus Christ.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought ya'll might have verses to  God electing nations and family generations too.  Will the Jews be elected?



Some will, some won't.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> lol...way to much to answer at 11PM.



Yea....I'll jump back on in the morning, respond to the rest.

But, something to ponder on "T"........what is Jesus describing in Luke 18:15-17.....I got more to that, but, it's now 11:30


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> I wasn't referring to you AD.  I've seen several SBC churches split over dislike for Calvin and the doctrine of Election/Predestination.  Call it dislike, disagreement...whatever, but if you can split a church over it, I call it hatred.
> 
> 
> 
> Who are we to question God?



See.  You prove my point.
If that church had only been quoting and reading scriptures they would have forced themselves to at least 'agree to disagree'.  Toss another man's sacred props into the picture and people get all crazy.

Study the Bible, not the law of tulips.

Be it Calvin, Max Lucado, Bro Campbell, Martin Luther.
I appreciate anyone who can lead me to a clearer understanding of God's ways, but then, please Lord, let me return to the Lord as the teacher.
No one is going to make it any simplier than He.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> I have no control. I might as well hoop & holler and carry on as a sinner



Seeing the absolute, total disconnect between these two is where rest and joy are found.


----------



## Artfuldodger

quote: No...God gave me the HS that guides me to study. end quote

Me too but for me the key word is "guide" not force. I guide my children but I don't force them. They must learn to make decisions on their own.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Seeing the absolute, total disconnect between these two is where rest and joy are found.



I wish I believed it that way. I wish I didn't believe in he!!. I wish I wasn't fearful of God.


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> See.  You prove my point.
> If that church had only been quoting and reading scriptures they would have forced themselves to at least 'agree to disagree'.  Toss another man's sacred props into the picture and people get all crazy.
> 
> Study the Bible, not the law of tulips.
> 
> Be it Calvin, Max Lucado, Bro Campbell, Martin Luther.
> I appreciate anyone who can lead me to a clearer understanding of God's ways, but then, please Lord, let me return to the Lord as the teacher.
> No one is going to make it any simplier than He.



Ronnie....No...you prove my point.  The study of Calvin, Luther, Lucado...I'll throw in MacArthur....is all coming from scripture.  Their writings are helping to explain scripture.  Why would we toss what great men of God have studied in scripture to the curb?  I know that our final authority is always scripture, but to think that I know as much as these men is ludicrous.  Why would we discard what the founding fathers said about important Doctrinal Issues?  Why would we throw out was was decided at the council's?  God used them...is using them...to guide all of us.

That is the problem with so many (not all) of the SBC churches that I've been a part of.  They get stuck on the name.  They say exactly what you do..."I'm going by my Bible, not by what Calvin said."  The problem is, Calvin's teachings aren't about Calvin.  They're based on the Bible.  Same with Luther, same with MacArthur.  Same with many other Biblical Scholars.  How ignorant and prideful are those who refuse to study the writings of others that came before them...that know more than them.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> I wish I believed it that way. I wish I didn't believe in he!!. I wish I wasn't fearful of God.



The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom.

We should always be in fear of God.  However, on the flip side, we can find great comfort in His forgiveness and mercy.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> How ignorant and prideful are those who refuse to study the writings of others that came before them...that know more than them.



We all have access to the same study material.  LEarning from others is good.  But, we have to understand that there is always bias in interpretation.

I wonder how many folks believe today exactly, or similar, to how they were taught?  We take those teachings and filter new information through it.  Very rarely are the fundamentals discarded.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> .....we can find great comfort in His forgiveness and mercy.



Not really if it is randomly given.  What if you are a vessel of wrath?


----------



## Bama4me

JB0704 said:


> My problem isn't with Calvin.....it's with the nature of the God described by him.
> 
> RJ, would you then say that those of us "free-willers" are condemend because we do not see an interpretation of God similar to Calvin (I know it's loaded, but I'll play nice with the response)?  If we got it wrong, then we have God wrong.



JB... you are totally correct when you say Calvinism very much defines the nature of God.  And, that's one of the biggest issues I have with the teachings.

Take "Irresistable Grace" for instance.  The doctrine of IG says that if you are one of the "elect", God will send the Holy Spirit into your heart to spiritually make you "alive."  Here's the rub though... you have no choice in the matter, God does it whether you desire it or not.

For many of us, that's not an issue because we tend to believe everyone desires to be saved.  Over the years, I've run into many people who have literally told me, "I don't want anything to do with God!"  The doctrine of IG claims that God will force this kind of person to receive the Holy Spirit and thus be saved.

We have terms in our society which describe someone who forces his/her will upon other people.  The God "Calvinism" describes is one who:
*  Makes us "inherit" the sins of our parents (born into sin)
*  Arbitrarily selects who is and is not saved, regardless of the person's individual preference
*  Only sent His Son to die for a small group of people
*  Never allows people to leave him even if they desire

Whether I like these things or not is really not important... you cannot square the "God of Calvinism" with the God that is consistently portrayed in the Bible.


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Gem, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I remember reading you say that you believe a lot of folks are elected who aren't Christian.....is that correct?  If so, would you elaborate your reasoning?


JB, there is a remnant of elect scattered about the earth. Some are regenerate(believers) and some are unregenerate(unbelievers). I have no doubt that some of the unregenerate are Atheist, as I formerly was. At God's appointed time, He will make himself known to them through the power of regeneration.


----------



## centerpin fan

rjcruiser said:


> How ignorant and prideful are those who refuse to study the writings of others that came before them...that know more than them.



Agreed, but I wish people would broaden their horizons beyond current popular authors.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Agreed, but I wish people would broaden their horizons beyond current popular authors.



What's the different from the current popular authors compared to Calvin & Luther? Are current Church leaders/authors less inspired?


----------



## Artfuldodger

If God elects Mormons & JW's would they have to convert?


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> We have terms in our society which describe someone who forces his/her will upon other people.  The God "Calvinism" describes is one who:
> *  Makes us "inherit" the sins of our parents (born into sin)
> *  Arbitrarily selects who is and is not saved, regardless of the person's individual preference
> *  Only sent His Son to die for a small group of people
> *  Never allows people to leave him even if they desire
> 
> Whether I like these things or not is really not important... you cannot square the "God of Calvinism" with the God that is consistently portrayed in the Bible.



Again, in fairness to Calvinist, you need to study up some. You claim that you have, but you continue to misrepresent.


----------



## JB0704

Bama4me said:


> Whether I like these things or not is really not important... you cannot square the "God of Calvinism" with the God that is consistently portrayed in the Bible.



Agree.   I see a particular separation of the two in the NT, with Jesus.  I think that's the big difference in how God interacted with man.....now through grace.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe most of tulip is based on Paul's writings, not Jesus' teachings.....where Jesus' words have to be interpretted differently in order to square with some things Paul said.  I understand this difference to be the nature of who Paul was.....an "elect Jew," reflected in his words.  Not that they are untrue, but to be viewed with that perspective.

I'm sure a few will come along and correct me........


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> If God elects Mormons & JW's would they have to convert?


Art, I have 3 separate groups of JW's stop at my house every month and never at once. All of my neighbors only have one. Somehow, only my address ended up on each of their list. They do not know this. They are never prepared, but I enjoy witnessing to them. I do not know if there is an elect among them, but I witness as if there is.


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> What's the different from the current popular authors compared to Calvin & Luther? Are current Church leaders/authors less inspired?



I wouldn't use the term "inspired" for any author outside of the Bible.  You can certainly learn from others, though.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> We all have access to the same study material.  LEarning from others is good.  But, we have to understand that there is always bias in interpretation.
> 
> I wonder how many folks believe today exactly, or similar, to how they were taught?  We take those teachings and filter new information through it.  Very rarely are the fundamentals discarded.



Yes, but that is why you read multiple authors and study multiple Church fathers.  And most importantly, you make sure that their study is based in Scripture.  



JB0704 said:


> Not really if it is randomly given.  What if you are a vessel of wrath?



Well...I've never known a non-christian who wanted to be a christian that couldn't become one.  When you meet someone like that, please let me know.



Bama4me said:


> JB... you are totally correct when you say Calvinism very much defines the nature of God.  And, that's one of the biggest issues I have with the teachings.
> 
> Take "Irresistable Grace" for instance.  The doctrine of IG says that if you are one of the "elect", God will send the Holy Spirit into your heart to spiritually make you "alive."  Here's the rub though... you have no choice in the matter, God does it whether you desire it or not.
> 
> For many of us, that's not an issue because we tend to believe everyone desires to be saved.  Over the years, I've run into many people who have literally told me, "I don't want anything to do with God!"  The doctrine of IG claims that God will force this kind of person to receive the Holy Spirit and thus be saved.
> 
> We have terms in our society which describe someone who forces his/her will upon other people.  The God "Calvinism" describes is one who:
> *  Makes us "inherit" the sins of our parents (born into sin)
> *  Arbitrarily selects who is and is not saved, regardless of the person's individual preference
> *  Only sent His Son to die for a small group of people
> *  Never allows people to leave him even if they desire
> 
> Whether I like these things or not is really not important... you cannot square the "God of Calvinism" with the God that is consistently portrayed in the Bible.



That is not a very good understanding of irrestible grace.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> If God elects Mormons & JW's would they have to convert?



I would answer yes because I believe that their teachings are contrary to scripture.



JB0704 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe most of tulip is based on Paul's writings, not Jesus' teachings.....where Jesus' words have to be interpretted differently in order to square with some things Paul said.  I understand this difference to be the nature of who Paul was.....an "elect Jew," reflected in his words.  Not that they are untrue, but to be viewed with that perspective.
> 
> I'm sure a few will come along and correct me........



Do you hold the words in red in your Bible at a higher authority than the words in black?  

I view them as all being God's perfect Word.  Whether they were directly spoken by Jesus Himself, or written by Paul or other authors, they are all the perfect inspired Words of God.  So to state that Calvin's Doctrine is somehow based on something other than God's word is false.



centerpin fan said:


> I wouldn't use the term "inspired" for any author outside of the Bible.  You can certainly learn from others, though.



Absolutely.  I think the main reason I study more from Contemporary authors is the ease to which the information is available.  For instance, I can listen to MacArthur sermons via my Grace To You app on my phone for free.  I know where he stands on the issues and agree with most of them.  I can't read German...I can't read Hebrew or Greek...so I'm a bit handicapped in some of the ancient texts and great scholars.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I don't think the Arminians have the "Election" thing figured out much better than the Calvinist. I found this article. I've never liked the election thing explained that it's my choice but God knew what my choice would be.
quote: 
Arminian Election

Classical Arminianism tends to base God's selection of His people upon foreseen faith. He looks down the corridors of time, sees who will believe the gospel, and chooses them. I have never been satisfied with this view. Scripture does not say that God chose us because He knew we would choose Him. That would certainly be no choice at all on the part of God.

Election a Mystery

Divine election is clearly a Bible doctrine. It no more belongs to the Calvinist than to anyone else. It is really a part of the larger Scriptural theme of the Sovereignty of God, found everywhere in both Testaments. God sets up and deposes rulers (Ps. 75:6,7), operates the forces of nature (Job 37), overrules evil for good (Gen. 50:20) and has "determined the times set for them [the nations of men] and the exact places where they should live" (Acts 17:26).

Dewey makes no metaphysical distinction between the election of grace and the election of mundane affairs of life. All are the result of divine sovereignty, which is past finding out. 

"...the apostle says, that Christians are 'predestinated according to the purpose of him, who worketh all things, after the counsel of his own will.' If this be true, then everything is a matter of divine counsel; everything is disposed of by election. And men are as much elected to be philosophers, merchants, or inhabitants of this country or that country, as they are elected to be Christians. If this is election, I believe there will be found no difficulty in it; save what exists in that inscrutableness of the subject, which must forbid our expecting ever to fathom it."14 

Election is true, but is shrouded in deep mystery. It is one of the secret things that belong to the Lord our God (Deut. 29:29). Calvinists and Arminians both err when they make precise statements about the nature of election. God has not told us whether or not there are conditions attached to it and we should not venture into it with such bold assertions.

The Calvinist, however, does need to temper his view of election with the clearly revealed truth in Ezekiel 18:23: "Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?" Too often, we hear Calvinists say that the - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -ation of the non-elect is "the good pleasure of His will." But here, God states explicitly that He takes no pleasure in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -ing anyone but prefers that they turn from sin and live. How this idea fits into the Calvinist scheme is not at all clear.

Nor is it clear, from a Calvinistic standpoint, why Jesus should weep over Jerusalem in Matthew 23:37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."

This poses a thorny difficulty for the Calvinist. First of all, he must assume that the reprobation of Jerusalem was "the good pleasure" of the Father. If that is so, why was it so displeasing and heart-rending to Jesus, who was always in agreement with the divine will? Shouldn't Jesus have also been "pleased" with the Father's reprobation of these people?

Secondly, Jesus is here attributing the lost condition of Jerusalem to her own unwillingness, not the want of election. Jesus was willing to receive them but they were unwilling. This seems to contradict the confident assertions of Calvinists about Unconditional Election.

So what doctrine do we put in the place of the Calvinist's Unconditional Election? Do we opt for one of the many Arminian forms of election? Tempting as that may be, I must now settle on the mysterious Biblical Election, the details of which have not been fully disclosed as we look into our "glass, darkly." Perhaps further theological works by thoughtful Christians will reveal a more satisfactory resting place for our convictions. 

The biblical term "foreknowledge" offers no support to the "foreseen faith" view. While it is clear that God knew us and loved us before the world was, it in no way means that He noted our future faith and chose us because of it. The Scriptures never tell us such things and we should not assume them simply to get rid of Calvinism.

Another attempt to explain election is by asserting a kind of vague, "corporate" election. In other words, God chose to have a people, a church, but has not chosen the individuals who are to compose that company. That seems to be a very stilted and unsatisfactory approach. In Romans 9, God's choice of Jacob over Esau was very personal. In Revelation 17:8, there is mention of specific names "written in the book of life from the creation of the world" (Rev. 17:8). There is nothing nebulous or "nameless" about election.

Others say that God only elects us to special service, as Christ chose his twelve apostles. Election, they say, does not pertain to salvation per se. But Paul, writing to the Thessalonians, told them that God had chosen them "to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth" (2 Thess. 2:13). Evidently, election is unto salvation, not just to specific ministries.


----------



## Artfuldodger

The author of the above is a former Calvinist. I guess God decided to "unelect him" at some point.
He should at least know both sides or views.

http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/calvinism.html

I'm just going to "let the mystery be".


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> The author of the above is a former Calvinist. I guess God decided to "unelect him" at some point.


Art, do not equate Calvinism with salvation. Salvation is of the Lord. It is not in a system of doctrine or theology. Do you believe that all people who profess to be Christians, actually are?


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Do you hold the words in red in your Bible at a higher authority than the words in black?
> 
> I view them as all being God's perfect Word.  Whether they were directly spoken by Jesus Himself, or written by Paul or other authors, they are all the perfect inspired Words of God.  So to state that Calvin's Doctrine is somehow based on something other than God's word is false.



Do you see individual influence in each author's writing style?  Compare the gospel of Mathew with the gospel of John.  Compare Paul's writings with other authors of the letters.  You will see individuality coming through the pages.  There is certainly human influence on scripture, even if scripture is inspired.

2 Timothy 4:19-21


> 19 Greet Priscilla and Aquila and the household of Onesiphorus. 20 Erastus stayed in Corinth, and I left Trophimus sick in Miletus. 21 Do your best to get here before winter. Eubulus greets you, and so do Pudens, Linus, Claudia and all the brothers.



3 John 1:13-14


> 13 I have much to write you, but I do not want to do so with pen and ink. 14 I hope to see you soon, and we will talk face to face. Peace to you. The friends here send their greetings. Greet the friends there by name.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Well...I've never known a non-christian who wanted to be a christian that couldn't become one.  When you meet someone like that, please let me know.



How do they know they were one?  When was I "elected?"

I don't believe in predestination.....so, according to some of your previous statements, I'm still on the "outside" of the mercy pool, but I really do want to be a Christian.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> Do you se4e individual influence in each author's writing style?  Compare the gospel of Mathew with the gospel of John.  Compare Paul's writings with other authors of the letters.  You will see individuality coming through the pages.  There is certainly human influence on scripture, even if scripture is inspired.
> 
> 2 Timothy 4:19-21
> 
> 
> 3 John 1:13-14



absolutely see the author's writing style.  You can see it in Luke as well as he was a physician.

But that doesn't mean that those words are not inspired.  God's Word is inspired.  All 66 books.  To take away or to add to that is delt with in Revelation 22.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> How do they know they were one?  When was I "elected?"
> 
> I don't believe in predestination.....so, according to some of your previous statements, I'm still on the "outside" of the mercy pool, but I really do want to be a Christian.



I John will let you and others know if they are saved.

If you/they are saved, they're one of the elect.  You/they/all Christians were predestined before the foundations of the world.

So...you don't believe in the omnipotence/omniscience of God?


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> To take away or to add to that is delt with in Revelation 22.



I'm not doing that.  I'm just saying it adds context to the interpretation.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> So...you don't believe in the omnipotence/omniscience of God?



I don't believe in predestination.  Please don't turn this into a faith questioning exercise.  We view the nature of God a little differently based on the same information.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> I'm not doing that.  I'm just saying it adds context to the interpretation.



Right...but you said Calvin was based on Paul's teachings....not Christ's.  

I'm saying Paul's teachings are Christ's.



JB0704 said:


> I don't believe in predestination.  Please don't turn this into a faith questioning exercise.  We view the nature of God a little differently based on the same information.



Why not?  They're all related.  If you believe in Free-will, you can't believe in the omniscience/omnipotence of God.  The two are incongruent.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Why not?  They're all related.  If you believe in Free-will, you can't believe in the omniscience/omnipotence of God.  The two are incongruent.



Long conversation..........I'm going to vote, then hunt, then I will get on and respond late tonight or tomorrow.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> I would answer yes because I believe that their teachings are contrary to scripture.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you hold the words in red in your Bible at a higher authority than the words in black?
> 
> I view them as all being God's perfect Word.  Whether they were directly spoken by Jesus Himself, or written by Paul or other authors, they are all the perfect inspired Words of God.  So to state that Calvin's Doctrine is somehow based on something other than God's word is false.
> .



"Calvin's" doctrine??????????
Who's doctrine is this?
That's the issue I have with all this.

You don't realize it; people don't realize it; but remember that Paul taught about such as this.  Paul warned those who claimed to be followers of his personal teachings.  Or follower of Peter's teachings only.  Or of Apollos' teachings only.

There's no such thing as the doctrine of Calvin!
I might read his thoughts on a subject, then accept or reject his thoughts.  But to refer to his thoughts as "calvin's doctrine"?

It's just got a smell that I don't find pleasant.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> Long conversation..........I'm going to vote, then hunt, then I will get on and respond late tonight or tomorrow.





Go Vote.  Go Hunt.  Don't worry about responding.

I know it's already been said before, and you probably know my response as well.

I don't view it as a Tier 1 doctrinal issue, but I see major flaws caused by "Free-Will."  If we don't see eye-to-eye on this, we still can have a beer around the fire at camp.  I just won't bring it up...and we'll love each other as Christ commanded us to.


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> "Calvin's" doctrine??????????
> Who's doctrine is this?
> That's the issue I have with all this.
> 
> You don't realize it; people don't realize it; but remember that Paul taught about such as this.  Paul warned those who claimed to be followers of his personal teachings.  Or follower of Peter's teachings only.  Or of Apollos' teachings only.
> 
> There's no such thing as the doctrine of Calvin!
> I might read his thoughts on a subject, then accept or reject his thoughts.  But to refer to his thoughts as "calvin's doctrine"?
> 
> It's just got a smell that I don't find pleasant.





You know what I mean.  The doctrine that Calvin taught as Biblical Doctrine.

Again, you prove that your hatred for Calvin trumps logical thought.  Typical Southern Free will attitude.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Art, do not equate Calvinism with salvation. Salvation is of the Lord. It is not in a system of doctrine or theology. Do you believe that all people who profess to be Christians, actually are?



No they are not.  Not necessarily.

I don't make myself a Christian.  No one makes themself a Christian.

It is God who accepts.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Art, do not equate Calvinism with salvation. Salvation is of the Lord. It is not in a system of doctrine or theology. Do you believe that all people who profess to be Christians, actually are?



Salvation belongs to the one who accepts the call of the Lord.


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> Salvation belongs to the one who accepts the call of the Lord.



Not according to Revelation 7

9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures, and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Right...but you said Calvin was based on Paul's teachings....not Christ's.
> 
> I'm saying Paul's teachings are Christ's.
> 
> 
> 
> Why not?  They're all related.  If you believe in Free-will, you can't believe in the omniscience/omnipotence of God.  The two are incongruent.



That's so not true.  By your flavored definition maybe!
But God, in His omnipotence, can allow and require you and I both to make choices in life..... then require us to deal with those choices.  And maintain His omniscience.
You shouldn't allow your biblical world view to cause you to say things that are not so.

In God's omnipotence, God can, and does, allow mankind to assume responsibility.  Because it is His will.


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> That's so not true.  By your flavored definition maybe!
> But God, in His omnipotence, can allow and require you and I both to make choices in life..... then require us to deal with those choices.  And maintain His omniscience.
> You shouldn't allow your biblical world view to cause you to say things that are not so.
> 
> In God's omnipotence, God can, and does, allow mankind to assume responsibility.  Because it is His will.



So if I can choose, how does He know what I'm going to choose?


----------



## Ronnie T

JB0704 said:


> I don't believe in predestination.  Please don't turn this into a faith questioning exercise.  We view the nature of God a little differently based on the same information.



I do believe in predestination.

I believe God decided long ago that His Son would come into the world to allow all of mankind the opportunity to become children of God.
God always knew.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> You know what I mean.  The doctrine that Calvin taught as Biblical Doctrine.
> 
> Again, you prove that your hatred for Calvin trumps logical thought.  Typical Southern Free will attitude.



I promise you, my 8 year old grand son knows as much about Calvinism as I do.  This has nothing to do with what he said or taught.  For me, this has to do with how its now being used as "calvinism" and the "doctrine of Calvin".

I have no hatred for Calvin.  But I have an awareness of folks who refer to things as  "the doctrine of calvin".  

I ask you.....  Do you hear preachers, in sermons, refer to the doctrine of Calvin, or is this a term that's only used in casual discussions.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Art, do not equate Calvinism with salvation. Salvation is of the Lord. It is not in a system of doctrine or theology. Do you believe that all people who profess to be Christians, actually are?



I don't but part of the conversation was headed that way. I wouldn't take salvation away from Mormons or JW's but some Christians do. Some Christians think you must interprete the Bible the same as they do to aquire Salvation. An example would be the requirement to be Baptised in the name of Jesus only to be saved.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> So if I can choose, how does He know what I'm going to choose?



Are you kidding me?
I'm not having this lame discussion.

God bless us all.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> I promise you, my 8 year old grand son knows as much about Calvinism as I do.  This has nothing to do with what he said or taught.  For me, this has to do with how its now being used as "calvinism" and the "doctrine of Calvin".
> 
> I have no hatred for Calvin.  But I have an awareness of folks who refer to things as  "the doctrine of calvin".
> 
> I ask you.....  Do you hear preachers, in sermons, refer to the doctrine of Calvin, or is this a term that's only used in casual discussions.



I can't say that I have ever heard "The doctrines of Grace" referred to "The doctrines of Calvin". Perhaps it is an Arminian thing.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> I promise you, my 8 year old grand son knows as much about Calvinism as I do.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> So if I can choose, how does He know what I'm going to choose?



That is a fair question. Arminian's beliefs aren't Biblical either.

Classical Arminianism tends to base God's selection of His people upon foreseen faith. He looks down the corridors of time, sees who will believe the gospel, and chooses them. I have never been satisfied with this view. Scripture does not say that God chose us because He knew we would choose Him. That would certainly be no choice at all on the part of God.

The biblical term "foreknowledge" offers no support to the "foreseen faith" view. While it is clear that God knew us and loved us before the world was, it in no way means that He noted our future faith and chose us because of it. The Scriptures never tell us such things and we should not assume them simply to get rid of Calvinism.

Let the mystery be. The Bible doesn't let us know the answer.


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> I promise you, my 8 year old grand son knows as much about Calvinism as I do.  This has nothing to do with what he said or taught.  For me, this has to do with how its now being used as "calvinism" and the "doctrine of Calvin".
> 
> I have no hatred for Calvin.  But I have an awareness of folks who refer to things as  "the doctrine of calvin".
> 
> I ask you.....  Do you hear preachers, in sermons, refer to the doctrine of Calvin, or is this a term that's only used in casual discussions.



Nope...never hear the term Calvinism in sermons.  I do see and hear Predestination and election preached a lot though.  If you have a pastor that preaches expositorily, it won't take long before you have to deal with those terms in scripture.



Ronnie T said:


> Are you kidding me?
> I'm not having this lame discussion.
> 
> God bless us all.



Really?  Why is it so lame?  It shows the incongruity of omniscience/omnipotence of God and free will.  For if I truly have free will, I can choose whether I have faith or not...and God doesn't know which I'll choose and He has no power over which I choose.



gemcgrew said:


> I can't say that I have ever heard "The doctrines of Grace" referred to "The doctrines of Calvin". Perhaps it is an Arminian thing.



I'd agree.  Again...hatred for Calvin.  Love for control of one's own destiny.



gemcgrew said:


>


----------



## Artfuldodger

The problem is in how we define "all powerful." We lump the negative in with the positive and think all is included, when it is not.

The same thing happens when when we talk about all knowing. We tend to skip over the fact that there just might be some things which are not knowable. The amount that God knows is beyond our grasp: "Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; His understanding is infinite" (Psalms 147:5). But does this mean He knows what cannot be known?

Take notice of what God said after stopping Abraham from killing Isaac. "And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me"" (Genesis 22:12). Consider the impact that is made when God says, "now I know." It means that God did not know beforehand, else He would not have said, "now." It doesn't mean God chose not to know, it means that until Abraham made the final choice, Abraham's decision could not be known in advance.
What the Bible tells us is that God is so powerful, He made man in the image of God (Genesis 1:27). In His power, He gave us the power to make our own choices. "And if it seems evil to you to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD" (Joshua 24:15). The choice is not made for man in advance. Man has to make his own choices. "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12). That man must make choices means that until the choice is made, it is not known.

http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2011/03-13.html

We know that God is sovereign. We also know God has emotions: Love, Hate, Happiness, Regret, & Jealousy. We know we can pray for change.


----------



## centerpin fan

rjcruiser said:


> Absolutely.  I think the main reason I study more from Contemporary authors is the ease to which the information is available.  For instance, I can listen to MacArthur sermons via my Grace To You app on my phone for free.  I know where he stands on the issues and agree with most of them.  I can't read German...I can't read Hebrew or Greek...so I'm a bit handicapped in some of the ancient texts and great scholars.



Here is an outstanding resource, and it's all in English:

http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html


----------



## Artfuldodger

""But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?" says the Lord GOD, "and not that he should turn from his ways and live? But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' Hear now, O house of Israel, is it not My way which is fair, and your ways which are not fair? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. Again, when a wicked man turns away from the wickedness which he committed, and does what is lawful and right, he preserves himself alive. Because he considers and turns away from all the transgressions which he committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. Yet the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not fair.' O house of Israel, is it not My ways which are fair, and your ways which are not fair?"" (Ezekiel 18:21-29).


----------



## rjcruiser

centerpin fan said:


> Here is an outstanding resource, and it's all in English:
> 
> http://www.ccel.org/fathers.html



Interesting link.  Problem is...most of my time is in the car driving...so audio files are wonderful for me.

But...I appreciate the link and will see if I can read some of it.  I know ECF's and the study of EC history is something many in America choose not to look at.



Artfuldodger said:


> But does this mean He knows what cannot be known?



Yes..God knows all.

Psalm 139.

He knows our thoughts, our words, even before they're on the tip of our tongue.


----------



## Ronnie T

*OSAS, Election....... and Repentance.*

Most if not all Christians say, "God has all knowledge." 
What does that mean? Does it mean each person is "preprogrammed" to be who he/she is? Does it mean God knows from conception if a person will be lost or saved? And, can God have all knowledge and yet choose to not be a God of individual predestination?

Most if not all Christians say, "God is all powerful." 
What does that mean? Will He authorize miracles today as He did in some Bible ages? Will He do things we wish if we manipulate Him? Can He prevent bad things from happening to us? Can He give His men and women "health and wealth" in this physical world? If a miracle we want does not occur, if He does not do what we want, if we are victims of the consequences of evil occurring in someone else's life, if we are His but do not receive "health and wealth," do these things evidence His lack of power?

Most if not all Christians say, "God cares." 
What does that mean? If something bad happens to us, does this occurrence prove He does not care? Many of the twelve apostles were killed because of dedication to the resurrected Jesus. Are these evidences that God does not care? If our spouse dies, if our child dies, does that prove that God does not care?

There are many views of God. 

Some picture God as a controlling God. God carries  a "big stick." He delights in punishment, He constantly watches for us to fail so he can punish us. 

Some picture God as our enemy.  At the present moment He restrains His righteous wrath. Yet, we can be assured the time will arrive when He will pour out His wrath on everyone. Therefore, we should be terrified of God, and never be able to express confidence in our salvation. 

Some picture God as a kindly grandfather too blind to notice anything and too soft-hearted to be offended. He will put up with anything from us.

Relevant questions: if God is controlling, or carries a "big stick," or is our enemy, or is the kindly [but oblivious] grandfather who will accept anything, why repent? If it is impossible to please God, OR if God will endure anything, why repent? If I cannot be perfect, OR if God does not care how I live, feel, or behave, why repent? If it is a huge life and death game played by God's changeable rules, why repent?

Repentance begins by holding a biblical view of God. 
If folowing God is to be more than rules declaring do's and don'ts, we must see God as He truly is. If repentance is to be more than good intentions or an impossible commitment to errorless existence, we must see God for Who He is, not as Who people say He is.

Forget what others say......  Who is God to you?
Jesus has shown us God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Man is made in the image of God. This means we have creativity, holiness, immortality, freedom, a capacity to love, an ability to reason, and for fellowship.
Adam was made with a thinking mind. He had the  power of choice. He had the ability to rebel against God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Psalms 115:3 Our God is in the heavens, and he does as he wishes.

We need to realize God has free will. He can changes his mind. He can get angry at bad things we do. He can rejoice when we do good. If God can't change things when we pray or for whatever reason then he isn't all powerful. 
I am made in the image of God.


----------



## hummerpoo

JB0704 said:


> We view the nature of God a little differently based on the same information.





hummerpoo said:


> JB, just a thought; every time you see these two perspectives, evaluate them with regard to which elevates God more, and which elevates man more.  Then choose God.   I think that over time a pattern of interpretation will develop.



...


----------



## Artfuldodger

Originally Posted by hummerpoo  
JB, just a thought; every time you see these two perspectives, evaluate them with regard to which elevates God more, and which elevates man more. Then choose God. I think that over time a pattern of interpretation will develop.(end quote)

The main reason God made us was to glorify or elevate him. That being said,  man having the ability to glorify God of his own choice shows which perspective elevates God more.If you made someone to elevate your glory, you would want them to do it because they love you, not because they  are predisposed  to glorify you. The very act of loving someone requires free will. I was made in the image of God with the ability to LOVE. I wasn't created to be God's "Yes man". God isn't a human boss or politician so he doesn't need Yes men. 
God didn't make us in the same capacity of the animals on the planet. We are way up there in the hierarchy, right under the angels. Didn't some of those angels abandon God?


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> Originally Posted by hummerpoo
> JB, just a thought; every time you see these two perspectives, evaluate them with regard to which elevates God more, and which elevates man more. Then choose God. I think that over time a pattern of interpretation will develop.(end quote)
> 
> The main reason God made us was to glorify or elevate him. That being said,  man having the ability to glorify God of his own choice shows which perspective elevates God more.If you made someone to elevate your glory, you would want them to do it because they love you, not because they  are predisposed  to glorify you. The very act of loving someone requires free will. I was made in the image of God with the ability to LOVE. I wasn't created to be God's "Yes man". God isn't a human boss or politician so he doesn't need Yes men.
> God didn't make us in the same capacity of the animals on the planet. We are way up there in the hierarchy, right under the angels. Didn't some of those angels abandon God?



Good words well spoken.
As pitiful as it is, it is our worship (love) that God wants.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> The main reason God made us was to glorify or elevate him. That being said,  man having the ability to glorify God of his own choice shows which perspective elevates God more.If you made someone to elevate your glory, you would want them to do it because they love you, not because they  are predisposed  to glorify you. The very act of loving someone requires free will. I was made in the image of God with the ability to LOVE. I wasn't created to be God's "Yes man". God isn't a human boss or politician so he doesn't need Yes men.
> God didn't make us in the same capacity of the animals on the planet. We are way up there in the hierarchy, right under the angels. Didn't some of those angels abandon God?



I know nothing of your ability to glorify God but I have glimpsed mine.

1 Cor. 1
 22.  For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
 23.  but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
 24.  but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
 25.  Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
 26.  For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
 27.  but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
 28.  and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,
 29.  so that no man may boast before God.
 30.  But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
 31.  so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."


----------



## Ronnie T

hummerpoo said:


> I know nothing of your ability to glorify God but I have glimpsed mine.
> 
> 1 Cor. 1
> 22.  For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
> 23.  but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
> 24.  but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
> 25.  Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
> 26.  For consider your calling, brethren, that there were not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble;
> 27.  but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
> 28.  and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,
> 29.  so that no man may boast before God.
> 30.  But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,
> 31.  so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."



Personally, I don't believe you answered your question.
Those verse explain why you should praise God, but you haven't said "how" you praise God.


----------



## hummerpoo

Ronnie T said:


> Personally, I don't believe you answered your question.
> Those verse explain why you should praise God, but you haven't said "how" you praise God.



I'm sorry Ronnie, maybe we can try some other time.  I just can't follow.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Personally, I don't believe you answered your question.
> Those verse explain why you should praise God, but you haven't said "how" you praise God.



I'll answer for me. I'll start by giving thanks and prayer. I'll try to keep his commandments. Then i'll move on to the most important part of the New Covenant, helping others and forgiving others. I could not even begin to glorify God if it wasn't for free will for I am made in his image.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Since God chose Obama, at the beginning of time, to win the election, i wish he would have  taken the campaign money to feed the poor.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Adam was made with a thinking mind. He had the  power of choice. He had the ability to rebel against God.



If Adam had the power of choice, how is God omnipotent? Art, when you start with a false assumption, where does it lead?

The Sovereign God causes all things, and he is holy and
righteous in all that he does.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> If Adam had the power of choice, how is God omnipotent? Art, when you start with a false assumption, where does it lead?
> 
> The Sovereign God causes all things, and he is holy and
> righteous in all that he does.



Why do you few guys keep asking that when it's been clearly answered a dozen times?

ANSWER:    The omnipotent God, with all power and all glory can choose to allow mankind to make choices in their life.

You will even have choices to make today.
May you make them for the Lord.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> If you believe in Free-will, you can't believe in the omniscience/omnipotence of God.  The two are incongruent.



If omniscience and omnipotence mean what you imply it means, then Satan / the fall / evil is all design intent.  I do not see that as being congruent with the nature of God as described in the Bible.

There is no way around it......if there is no free will, then God intended for sin to happen.  Which would make sin God's will.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Why do you few guys keep asking that when it's been clearly answered a dozen times?
> 
> ANSWER:    The omnipotent God, with all power and all glory can choose to allow mankind to make choices in their life.



Why? Because the answer implodes.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> Adam was made with a thinking mind. He had the  power of choice. He had the ability to rebel against God.



Adam wasn't affected by sin when he was created.



JB0704 said:


> If omniscience and omnipotence mean what you imply it means, then Satan / the fall / evil is all design intent.  I do not see that as being congruent with the nature of God as described in the Bible.
> 
> There is no way around it......if there is no free will, then God intended for sin to happen.  Which would make sin God's will.



Do you think what God allowed Satan to do to Job was against His (God's) nature?



gemcgrew said:


> Why? Because the answer implodes.



Right.  Omnipotent God could allow us to have a choice....but then He wouldn't be omniscient.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Do you think what God allowed Satan to do to Job was against His (God's) nature?



If there is no free-will, then God not only allowed Satan to do those things, but he designed them.....and satan.  It was his will.

The fall would also have been his will.

Then.....all sin would be God's will.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Adam wasn't affected by sin when he was created.
> Do you think what God allowed Satan to do to Job was against His (God's) nature?
> Right.  Omnipotent God could allow us to have a choice....but then He wouldn't be omniscient.



Not only bogus reasoning, but unscriptural.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> If Adam had the power of choice, how is God omnipotent? Art, when you start with a false assumption, where does it lead?
> 
> The Sovereign God causes all things, and he is holy and
> righteous in all that he does.
> 
> Would God force you, against your will, to attack, rape, and mutilate a child?
> .



Hey gem, how bout answering this truly horrible question I asked.

.


----------



## Artfuldodger

God's Word clearly teaches the reality of Satan as a personal entity.  He is presented as an evil being who affects humanity by his actions. Satan is God's enemy and adversary.
What are some bible verses show Satan as enemy and what are some verses showing he is in cahoots with God?


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> If Adam had the power of choice, how is God omnipotent? Art, when you start with a false assumption, where does it lead?
> 
> The Sovereign God causes all things, and he is holy and
> righteous in all that he does.
> 
> Would God force you, against your will, to attack, rape, and mutilate a child?
> 
> .



rj, if you would please, answer the horrible question above.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> No, God wouldn't do that. If a man was to do those terrible things it would be mans will.



Absolutely.

James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.


----------



## JB0704

Ronnie T said:


> rj, if you would please, answer the horrible question above.



Without free will, the only answer is yes.  Which is so contrary to the God I see in the Bible.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Hey gem, how bout answering this truly horrible question I asked..


"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" (Romans 9:19,20)

God is sovereign, and in his sovereignty, makes man responsible. Man is responsible because God is sovereign. Where is your issue?


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> No, God wouldn't do that. If a man was to do those terrible things it would be mans will.



Art, that was not my question and should not be attributed to me. Ronnie asked that question. Your post #415 is inaccurate.


----------



## rjcruiser

rjcruiser said:


> Do you think what God allowed Satan to do to Job was against His (God's) nature?





JB0704 said:


> If there is no free-will, then God not only allowed Satan to do those things, but he designed them.....and satan.  It was his will.
> 
> The fall would also have been his will.
> 
> Then.....all sin would be God's will.



So...is that a yes or a no to my initial question?



Ronnie T said:


> Not only bogus reasoning, but unscriptural.



How so?  I know it is unscriptural to believe that God is not omniscient, but if He empowers us with our own decision making, is it not true that He doesn't know what we will choose?



gemcgrew said:


> Would God force you, against your will, to attack, rape, and mutilate a child?





Ronnie T said:


> rj, if you would please, answer the horrible question above.



Is that a question from gem? or Ronnie?  Just curious...but I'll answer.

The answer to that question is the same as the answer to "Can God create a rock so big that He can't lift it?"

No.

Now...it might behoove you to read through Job and see the "horrible & awful" things that the Lord allowed to happen to Job.

Is that the same God of the NT?  Is Job not truly inspired scripture?


----------



## Ronnie T

No one answered my question.

If you did that horrible things, would it be from your decision, or from God's decision?

There's only one answer:  God allows it to take place, but God does not Himself tempted or mandate that you do it.

Then, as the scripture(James 1) says, that temptation will become sin for you when you do it.

Same would have been so with Job.  Check out God's conversation with Job after the ordeal.


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> No one answered my question.



Re-read post #422.  Maybe a little slower this time....you'll find the answer.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> So...is that a yes or a no to my initial question?



We have had discussion on this before, but I am not certain Job was ever intended to be interpretted literally.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Re-read post #422.  Maybe a little slower this time....you'll find the answer.



Stop the scarcasm!!!!!!!!

Now, yes or no to the question.  You did not answer it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Art, that was not my question and should not be attributed to me. Ronnie asked that question. Your post #415 is inaccurate.



I'm sorry, I thought you did. But regardless of who asked the question, the individual man is responsible. I know you use the word responsible in place of choice. Explain how a predestined man has responsibility. If I have no control over my actions, how can I be responsible or accountable?


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> Stop the scarcasm!!!!!!!!
> 
> Now, yes or no to the question.  You did not answer it.



No sarcasm...not sure how you missed my answer.  Seriously.

Please see the post below.  I'll put the answer in Red.



rjcruiser said:


> Is that a question from gem? or Ronnie?  Just curious...but I'll answer.
> 
> The answer to that question is the same as the answer to "Can God create a rock so big that He can't lift it?"
> 
> No.
> 
> Now...it might behoove you to read through Job and see the "horrible & awful" things that the Lord allowed to happen to Job.
> 
> Is that the same God of the NT?  Is Job not truly inspired scripture?


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> No sarcasm...not sure how you missed my answer.  Seriously.
> 
> Please see the post below.  I'll put the answer in Red.



So, if you're saying that God would not force anyone to do that thing, would it mean that person chose to do it of their on will?

And that is my(our) point.  Everything I do is not mandated by God.


----------



## JB0704

RJ, how does Satan have free will if God is omnipotent and omiscient?


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm sorry, I thought you did. But regardless of who asked the question, the individual man is responsible.


Yes, God in his sovereignty, makes man responsible.



Artfuldodger said:


> Explain how a predestined man has responsibility. If I have no control over my actions, how can I be responsible or accountable?


Because a Sovereign God makes man responsible. Where is your issue?

Art, you are assuming, along with others, that responsibility presupposes freedom. It is a false presupposition. God is sovereign, man is not free.


----------



## JB0704

Gem, so you believe man is responsible because God made him responsible.  But, under your scenario, God made the circumstance he assigns responsibility to man for.  And sin is still God's will.

I understand a lot of your position, but I can't get past how God can be the author and creator of sin.  Isn't that contrary to the God fo the Bible?


----------



## Artfuldodger

JB0704 said:


> RJ, how does Satan have free will if God is omnipotent and omiscient?



Did Jesus have free will while he was on Earth? Could he have called 12 legions of Angels if he wanted too? 
Did he willingly submitt to being tortured and crucified?


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> So, if you're saying that God would not force anyone to do that thing, would it mean that person chose to do it of their on will?
> 
> And that is my(our) point.  Everything I do is not mandated by God.



Nope.  It would not be of their own will, but the will of the spirit that lives inside them.  It is the will of Satan.  

You have one of two forces inside of you.  The Holy Spirit...allowing you to do righteousness....or the spirit of darkness...causing you to sin.

Look at Job.  You can see how God uses Satan to complete His goals and His plans.  Look at the nation of Israel throughout the OT.  God used plenty of evil nations to bring judgement on His people.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Yes, God in his sovereignty, makes man responsible.
> 
> 
> Because a Sovereign God makes man responsible. Where is your issue?
> 
> Art, you are assuming, along with others, that responsibility presupposes freedom. It is a false presupposition. God is sovereign, man is not free.



I guess my issue is that I'm having trouble seeing how a man whose actions are caused by God, instead of himself can have responsibility. How can you be responsible for something you have no control over? How can you be accountable and be judged?


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> RJ, how does Satan have free will if God is omnipotent and omiscient?





Artfuldodger said:


> Did Jesus have free will while he was on Earth? Could he have called 12 legions of Angels if he wanted too?
> Did he willingly submitt to being tortured and crucified?




God uses Satan as shown in Job.

I honestly don't know how free will would look before sin.  And I don't know exactly how the angels operate.  Maybe since they don't have sin, they always please God.  So, since they don't have sin, they can't choose sin.


This thread started as predestination in a human's conversion to Christ.  It has gotten much deeper than that and much broader than that with "Calvinism" and angels/demons/satan etc etc.

Not saying that that is off limits or shouldn't be discussed, but that it just muddy's the water.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> I guess my issue is that I'm having trouble seeing how a man whose actions are caused by God, instead of himself can have responsibility. How can you be responsible for something you have no control over? How can you be accountable and be judged?



I don't think you'll find anyone who is not saved that says they didn't choose to be that way.

Do I know how it all works out in the heavenlies...no.  But I know that predestination and election are clearly taught throughout the NT.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Did Job Have free will? When i read the account, to me it sounds like Satan is asking God to leave Job on his own and see what choice he makes. I would call this free will.

I'm trying to determine just who or what has free will. It's all related to my free will since i'm made in the image of God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> I don't think you'll find anyone who is not saved that says they didn't choose to be that way.
> 
> Do I know how it all works out in the heavenlies...no.  But I know that predestination and election are clearly taught throughout the NT.



I don't think none of us have it all figured out and we are all doing a bit of speculating on the non-biblical stuff.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> So, if you're saying that God would not force anyone to do that thing, would it mean that person chose to do it of their on will?
> 
> And that is my(our) point.  Everything I do is not mandated by God.





rjcruiser said:


> Nope.  It would not be of their own will, but the will of the spirit that lives inside them.  It is the will of Satan.
> 
> You have one of two forces inside of you.  The Holy Spirit...allowing you to do righteousness....or the spirit of darkness...causing you to sin.
> 
> Look at Job.  You can see how God uses Satan to complete His goals and His plans.  Look at the nation of Israel throughout the OT.  God used plenty of evil nations to bring judgement on His people.



Job was never tempted with anything which he could not withstand.
The man who is tempted to commit some horrible sin today always has the ability to rise above it.

James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. 15 Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death. 

It cannot be blamed on Satan, cause satan has no power to make me do anything.
It is my lust that drives me and you to sin.  The power of God in me has given me the strength to not react to the temptation.
It is my choice if my lust gives birth to sin.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> Did Job Have free will? When i read the account, to me it sounds like Satan is asking God to leave Job on his own and see what choice he makes. I would call this free will.
> 
> I'm trying to determine just who or what has free will. It's all related to my free will since i'm made in the image of God.



And that raises an interesting question about free will.

Do people who are saved have free will?



Artfuldodger said:


> I don't think none of us have it all figured out and we are all doing a bit of speculating on the non-biblical stuff.



lots of speculating on non-Biblical stuff that is determined by Biblical stuff.  right?  



Ronnie T said:


> It cannot be blamed on Satan, cause satan has no power to make me do anything.
> It is my lust that drives me and you to sin.  The power of God in me has given me the strength to not react to the temptation.
> It is my choice if my lust gives birth to sin.



But you have the Holy Spirit inside right?  

That is why I'm trying to draw somewhat of a line in the sand for pre-salvation and post-salvation.

Not saying that I believe it necessarily changes before or after, but I think it is much easier to present a case against free will prior to salvation since we don't have the HS inside of us.


----------



## mtnwoman

JB0704 said:


> Without free will, the only answer is yes.  Which is so contrary to the God I see in the Bible.



I agree.

If man had no free will, then we can believe like the unbelievers that God causes bad things to happen to good people, not us.


----------



## mtnwoman

rjcruiser said:


> I don't think you'll find anyone who is not saved that says they didn't choose to be that way.
> 
> Do I know how it all works out in the heavenlies...no.  But I know that predestination and election are clearly taught throughout the NT.



Well yeah, I think the disciples and apostles were elected by God. Most of the scripture is spoken from one elected person to another elected person, and yes they were predestined/chosen before they were in the womb. I don't believe that I was of the elect until after I was saved. Did God know I would be saved before I was in the womb? Yes of course He did.

Taking the entire Bible as a whole, most of it is about not sinning. Why, if we don't have will, do we still sin? It is not God's will for us to sin. He knows we will sin even after being saved and that's why we have Jesus, we will never be perfect until we enter heaven, if I didn't have free will to sin I wouldn't sin. In scripture it also says, God wishes for no one to perish.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> God is sovereign, and in his sovereignty, makes man responsible. Man is responsible because God is sovereign. Where is your issue?



Responsible for what? If we don't have free will and yet we still sin, that makes it God's will that we sin, right? So why are we responsible for something that was God's will?


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> It cannot be blamed on Satan, cause satan has no power to make me do anything.
> It is my lust that drives me and you to sin.  The power of God in me has given me the strength to not react to the temptation.
> It is my choice if my lust gives birth to sin.



Exactly!


----------



## mtnwoman

rjcruiser said:


> Nope.  It would not be of their own will, but the will of the spirit that lives inside them.  It is the will of Satan.
> 
> You have one of two forces inside of you.  The Holy Spirit...allowing you to do righteousness....or the spirit of darkness...causing you to sin.
> 
> Look at Job.  You can see how God uses Satan to complete His goals and His plans.  Look at the nation of Israel throughout the OT.  God used plenty of evil nations to bring judgement on His people.



Two things, I understand totally about the Holy Spirit and satan, I agree with that. But that gives 'will' to both God and satan....don't we choose which way we will go? God or satan?

Second, if God's people needed judgement, doesn't that imply their free will wasn't controlled by God?

I guess I more or less believe in limited free will. My free will wants to do things that I pray to God to free me from and be in control over my weakness and hold me back because I am not strong enough. I do believe that He can and will relieve you of certain temptations if you allow Him to and then again I believe if He wants to take over totally, He can do that, too. He can cause good and let bad things happen to me, based on my choices. Sometimes the will of others cause bad things for me, and God allows it, because it altogether works for good. But as far as my sin goes, I have a choice to heed God's word or go with the temptation of satan.

Should we continue in sin because we have Jesus, no....do we? yes and I don't believe that's God's will for us, at least not most of the time.  I have no doubt that God can "make" me do anything He wants me to do.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie, I implore you. Please go back and fix post #407.  You edited my post and inserted a question that I never asked.

If I correct it, it will appear as if I deleted my question.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Your post #444 shows me asking a question that I never asked. Ronnie asked it. I would appreciate it if he would correct it.



Ok, gotcha!

Thanks 

We need our colors back, don't we? lol

I deleted my post to save more confusion.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> I don't think you'll find anyone who is not saved that says they didn't choose to be that way.



Why would they say that if God made that choice for them. He did that by not electing them.  I guess God keeps all pre-elected people alive until he elects them.


----------



## StriperAddict

gemcgrew said:


> man is not free.


 
*Galatians 5:1*
It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

My "hit and run" point without commentary.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Ronnie, I implore you. Please go back and fix post #407.  You edited my post and inserted a question that I never asked.
> 
> If I correct it, it will appear as if I deleted my question.



Sorry bout that.
I have an extra button on my console that most don't have.
I've removed my comment.

I edited rather than quoted.

My bad.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> lots of speculating on non-Biblical stuff that is determined by Biblical stuff.  right?



Yes both sides of the argument can find verses in the Bible to argue their point. It's not one of those things that is spelled out for either side. It is a mystery.  You can find verses that say predestination is true and I can find verses that say free will is true or should I say verses alluding to either side. There is a lot of stuff people assume by reading various verses and assuming. Jesus spoke in riddles and answered questions with questions. I don't know why he did this. It is a mystery. We had this discussion on the Trinity topic. One could assume Jesus is God and truly believe it in their heart of hearts. What does the Bible say? What does the Bible actually say happens to souls at death? We could read a few verses and assume. What will Heaven be like? Is Heaven on Earth? 
I guess we'll just have to let the mystery be. (but we can still discuss it. After awhile we'll tire of it like we have done on the other posts)


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Sorry bout that.
> I have an extra button on my console that most don't have.
> I've removed my comment.
> 
> I edited rather than quoted.
> 
> My bad.



Appreciate it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

John 8:24
I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”

Proverbs 16:9 ESV 
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

Joshua 24:15 ESV 
And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the Lord, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

Ephesians 2:8-9 ESV 
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Romans 13:2 ESV 
Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.

John 7:17 ESV 
If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

Ephesians 2:2 ESV 
In which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—

Galatians 5:16-17 ESV 
But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

Acts 2:38 ESV 
And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 13:3 ESV 
No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.

John 8:32 ESV 
And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

Proverbs 12:24 ESV 
The hand of the diligent will rule, while the slothful will be put to forced labor.

Leviticus 22:17-19 ESV
And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to Aaron and his sons and all the people of Israel and say to them, When any one of the house of Israel or of the sojourners in Israel presents a burnt offering as his offering, for any of their vows or freewill offerings that they offer to the Lord, if it is to be accepted for you it shall be a male without blemish, of the bulls or the sheep or the goats.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 ESV 
In flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.


----------



## Israel

StriperAddict said:


> *Galatians 5:1*
> It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
> 
> My "hit and run" point without commentary.



How salient! (and I think salient may have something to do with salt!)


AGAIN! Be not subject AGAIN...!
What do I have that Adam never knew "before"?
Or better put..."do I really have what Adam didn't have 'before'?
The knowledge of CONSEQUENCES. 
I mean...do I? Do I see what sin has wrought? Do I see what the first Adam never saw "before"? Do any of us really imagine if Adam could "see" his son Cain bashing his other son Abel to death...just because of a bite of fruit...he would have done it? 
Not to mention all the other attendant griefs...culminating with what we claim to see, the innocent Son of God slaughtered for the sake of delivering us?
If we sin...we have an advocate. 

Now. 

But isn't this advocate the Lamb slain _from_ the foundation of the world? Isn't he also the last Adam?
Do I see something the first Adam didn't? And if I do...can I "blame" the first Adam for what was his blindness?
I am a different kind of Adam...now. But still 'an' Adam.
But unlike an Adam that knows nothing of death...I needn't wonder (or must I?) what the consequences for willful disobedience are?
If the last Adam was slain _from the foundation_ of the world...he has surely known the price of disobedience, that another did not. He knew death.
Which "Adam" am I?
God forgives the first Adam...but sends the last Adam into the world, precisely to manifest that mercy.
Am I still deciding who is "in" or who is "out"...or am I also one with the One who is slain from the foundation of the world who can truly say with conviction...sin brings death...because I have experienced it? 

Death to those in Christ is not just a word with no meaning...as to a man who knows nothing of it. (What did the first Adam know about death?)
But, of course...to be in the last Adam is an attendant revelation of that death.
The question remains...do I really know the consequences of disobedience because I know nothing except Christ and him crucified?
Or...am I...just a man with suppositions about what it "might" mean...like a man blathering about "you will not go to heaven" but when asked about heaven...I really don't know at all what anyone would be missing because really...I have no idea? Do I (we) just speak as those who say "all I know is it's a really nice place...and God wants you there?"
Liberty is real. Heaven is real. To know God through Christ is to know heaven. To walk with your maker...free...is not a maybe someday in the future "thing"...where there's nice fruit trees and lotsa cool stuff (cause I read it)...and everyone is nice to one another.
Likewise...because one in the last Adam knows of a death "from the foundation of the world"...and both the kindness...and severity of God...he is not reluctant or ashamed to say...
"Knowing the TERROR of the Lord, we persuade men"
If we have been "in the garden" with Christ...we know this..."now is my soul troubled exceedingly...even unto death"...yes...we know something (for me...perhaps only very little) of the terror of being pressed beyond measure...by what you, of yourself, want...as opposed to what you "see" as the way of righteousness.

Thankfully...those who are given to believe...have tasted something of the glories of being in the man who chose "not" his own will.
The first Adam...remains clueless...whether he calls himself a christian, whether he reads his Bible diligently and can quote every verse with precision, can recite every doctrine...and even "prays" till his knees are worn out on his jeans.
No.
And yes. 
Every man may go the garden and finally face his own will as opposed to the will of God.
There...he will either walk out thinking he is something..."christian"..."bible scholar"..."godly man"...or...something else entirely will be "begotten"...not of flesh, nor of the will of man...but of God.
Because he has seen someone there...slain from the foundation of the world. And he knows he is not him.
And that's how...and why...he stays with him...because he finally sees "not himself"...and there he is delivered from the terror...of thinking himself...alone.
And thinking therefore "of" himself...alone.

Judas went to "his own place".
We are invited to "not" our own place...where we discover we are right at home.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Again, in fairness to Calvinist, you need to study up some. You claim that you have, but you continue to misrepresent.



No... no misrepresentation. Those holding to ideas of Calvinism are clearly on record.  You can see them very clearly in creed statements of several religious groups. In fairness to them, you need to lay this argument down.


----------



## Bama4me

Artfuldodger said:


> Yes both sides of the argument can find verses in the Bible to argue their point. It's not one of those things that is spelled out for either side. It is a mystery.  You can find verses that say predestination is true and I can find verses that say free will is true or should I say verses alluding to either side. There is a lot of stuff people assume by reading various verses and assuming.



Art... You've hit on a very important biblical truth. If you want to get the total picture of a biblical subject, you need to see what the entire bible says about it. Too often, we want to cite one passage alone to the exclusion of all other passages. The best commentary on the bible is the bible.


----------



## Israel

One never decides when the truth will be manifest, nor the Lord's appearance made plain. As lightning shining from the east to the west so is the Lord's coming to his people, clear and irrefutable, and each who beholds is changed, irrevocably, in the twinkling of an eye. Nothing is ever the same again...even despite the seeming sense of degeneration from that vision, back "into the world" or its prevalent view. 

For it is precisely in response to the revelation that fierce opposition is encountered in spirit through the enemy's vain hope to eradicate, dismiss, or even assign such a bright interruption as an abnormal aberration of consciousness that we may let slip somewhat, its truth to the soul.
But, it does not matter...light and life...even for what appears as the briefest moment, changes us. It cannot be undone.

And though the assault indeed causes a dimness...the Lord has already purposed we "chase" it to the depths of heart from which it has come..."What was that thing I seemed to see so clearly for a moment?"
Once rediscovered by our pursuit, it is made ours to keep.
The days star rising.
Focus on it as a light in a dark place.
Apprehend your calling. And from whom.

Joh_8:42  Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; _neither came I of myself,_ but he sent me. 

Heb 10:9  Then said he, Lo, _I come to do thy will_, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 
Heb 10:10  _By the which will_ we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And that will alone...is free.
Seek it. Pursue it. Chase it. Be made whole, and one in it. With all the saints.

Joh_17:11  And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, _that they may be one, as we are. 
_
Joh_17:21  That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, _that they also may be one in us:_ that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 

Joh_17:22  And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; _that they may be one, even as we are one: _

Joh_17:23  I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, _and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me._ 

If that last bit of red does not move you, you may want to consider whether you are any of his.

If that last bit of red does not send you out hunting like a leaping Beagle with a nose full of rabbit scent to know how it can possibly be the truth to you...and for you...if that last bit of red is met with "I already know that"...or some such religious doggerel...if that last bit of red is not enough to puzzle you, thrill you, cause you to be a fool in your own eyes...and not undo every bit of stale "systematology" who do you see? And how?
Calvin?
God forbid.


----------



## rjcruiser

Bama4me said:


> No... no misrepresentation. Those holding to ideas of Calvinism are clearly on record.  You can see them very clearly in creed statements of several religious groups. In fairness to them, you need to lay this argument down.



In fairness to Calvin, you should probably study from the source rather than from the statements of several religious groups.


----------



## gemcgrew

StriperAddict said:


> *Galatians 5:1*
> It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
> 
> My "hit and run" point without commentary.



Romans 6:18
"and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."

My "hit and run" response without commentary.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> That is why I'm trying to draw somewhat of a line in the sand for pre-salvation and post-salvation.



....good segway back to the OP.

First, what is the distinction, and why does it exist.  Second, if free-will is granted post salvation, isn't man left to his own devices to choose evil?  In doing so, wouldn't the door also be opened for "election" to be revoked by man's choices?


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> My "hit and run" response without commentary.



 

I love this forum.


Anyway, have you sinned post-election?


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Anyway, have you sinned post-election?



Election is eternal. In the court of heaven, there is no record of my sin.
“As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.” (Psalms 103:12)


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Election is eternal. In the court of heaven, there is no record of my sin.
> “As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.” (Psalms 103:12)



If you are a slave to righteousness, how do you sin?

I tend to see that scripture as a mission statement more than a statement of fact.


----------



## Artfuldodger

JB0704 said:


> ....good segway back to the OP.
> 
> First, what is the distinction, and why does it exist.  Second, if free-will is granted post salvation, isn't man left to his own devices to choose evil?  In doing so, wouldn't the door also be opened for "election" to be revoked by man's choices?



That's my belief although not as common as the OSAS belief. My free will didn't stop at my salvation. I could decide to follow the Gods of the Amorites next week.


----------



## Bama4me

rjcruiser said:


> In fairness to Calvin, you should probably study from the source rather than from the statements of several religious groups.



OK... suppose you and Gem point out the vast differences between what religious groups call "Calvinism" today and is found in denominational creed books and the "truth" of Calvinism.  I've studied/discussed the subject with people subscribing to these beliefs and know their position well because I've heard them defend it in writing/talking.  In my years of doing this, you are the first two who claim I have no knowledge of the subject... and with a bit of smugness/arrogance at that.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> In my years of doing this, you are the first two who claim I have no knowledge of the subject... and with a bit of smugness/arrogance at that.


Bama, I'm sorry you took my comments that way. You clearly have some knowledge of the subject.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Bama, I'm sorry you took my comments that way. You clearly have some knowledge of the subject.



If I was wrong in taking them that way, I apologize.  But I do want to know where I'm going wrong in understanding the ideas our religious world calls "Calvinism".  I am often associated with a religious group which is not understood by everyone... and often plainly misrepresented.  I don't want to do the same with others, so you'd do me a favor explaining things.

I know Calvin relied totally upon "God's sovereignty".  It is an idea you've referred to many times in your posts and is fundamental to the development of the five principles that bear the acronym "TULIP".  In addition to him writing the Institutes of the Christian Religion, he was one of several men whose comments were recorded in the margin of the Geneva Bible.  As with any historical figure, it is difficult to ascertain exactly what he believed and taught... outside of simply reading documents attributed to him.


----------



## StriperAddict

gemcgrew said:


> In the court of heaven, there is no record of my sin.
> Agreed.
> “As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.” (Psalms 103:12)


 


JB0704 said:


> If you are a slave to righteousness, how do you sin?
> 
> I tend to see that scripture as a mission statement more than a statement of fact.


 
Ok, a "slave of righteousness" in that our "new man" always has it's predisposition to _walk in union_ with his Lord, which is the "freedom" that is expressed thru Romans 6, 7 and 8 and Galatians.

My disagreement with gemcgrew is on the "perspective" side, 
I believe the walk of faith in grace (that some call free will and I call Liberty in Christ)  cannot have us strung along as spiritually robotic puppets.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Originally Posted by hummerpoo
> JB, just a thought; every time you see these two perspectives, evaluate them with regard to which elevates God more, and which elevates man more. Then choose God. I think that over time a pattern of interpretation will develop.(end quote)
> 
> The main reason God made us was to glorify or elevate him. That being said,  man having the ability to glorify God of his own choice shows which perspective elevates God more.If you made someone to elevate your glory, you would want them to do it because they love you, not because they  are predisposed  to glorify you. The very act of loving someone requires free will. I was made in the image of God with the ability to LOVE. I wasn't created to be God's "Yes man". God isn't a human boss or politician so he doesn't need Yes men.
> God didn't make us in the same capacity of the animals on the planet. We are way up there in the hierarchy, right under the angels. Didn't some of those angels abandon God?



I have considered giving a reasoned response to this but my recent birthday seems to have pealed away one more layer of tolerance for man-center theology.  Therefore, my response is HOGWASH.


----------



## gemcgrew

hummerpoo said:


> I have considered giving a reasoned response to this but my recent birthday seems to have pealed away one more layer of tolerance for man-center theology.  Therefore, my response is HOGWASH.




Hey, Happy Birthday!


----------



## gemcgrew

StriperAddict said:


> Ok, a "slave of righteousness" in that our "new man" always has it's predisposition to _walk in union_ with his Lord, which is the "freedom" that is expressed thru Romans 6, 7 and 8 and Galatians.


And just where exactly does this predisposition originate?



StriperAddict said:


> My disagreement with gemcgrew is on the "perspective" side,
> I believe the walk of faith in grace (that some call free will and I call Liberty in Christ)  cannot have us strung along as spiritually robotic puppets.


We already have the Potter and clay analogy. You accomplish nothing by changing the clay to robots or puppets. You have to maintain the relationship between the characters. It does not help you.

Your issue is with the Potter and the power He exercises over the clay. Do you folks leave any room whatsoever for a Creator? I think not.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> And just where exactly does this predisposition originate?
> 
> 
> We already have the Potter and clay analogy. You accomplish nothing by changing the clay to robots or puppets. You have to maintain the relationship between the characters. It does not help you.
> 
> Your issue is with the Potter and the power He exercises over the clay. Do you folks leave any room whatsoever for a Creator? I think not.


----------



## Israel

A man who knows something rarely has to be invited to share it.
A man who knows someone not easily provoked to disdain, learns to even shelve what may appear as his well earned right at exasperation.
Even the understanding of God's sovereignty in all things must pass "through" the cross till only what is of life in it appears on the other side.
This is not parable, this is not conundrum, nor vagaries...to Christ.
This is not poesy or dark sayings...to those in the light.
God is indeed master of all, and a man will learn his own will, even in submission to what he may consider the most sublime truth of Christ, is still called to be put aside.
For there is no life in a man's will.
God alone wills life to man, and those who say they know him will be tested, whether their words and doctrine are simply of "themself", and not of him who has sent them.


----------



## gemcgrew

Israel said:


> A man who knows something rarely has to be invited to share it.
> A man who knows someone not easily provoked to disdain, learns to even shelve what may appear as his well earned right at exasperation.
> Even the understanding of God's sovereignty in all things must pass "through" the cross till only what is of life in it appears on the other side.
> This is not parable, this is not conundrum, nor vagaries...to Christ.
> This is not poesy or dark sayings...to those in the light.
> God is indeed master of all, and a man will learn his own will, even in submission to what he may consider the most sublime truth of Christ, is still called to be put aside.
> For their is no life in a man's will.
> God alone wills life to man, and those who say they know him will be tested, whether their words and doctrine are simply of "themself", and not of him who has sent them.


I hear you but I just have to proclaim it. Perhaps the Lord will shut me up in short order. Until then, I just gotta proclaim it.


----------



## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> A man who knows something rarely has to be invited to share it.
> A man who knows someone not easily provoked to disdain, learns to even shelve what may appear as his well earned right at exasperation.
> Even the understanding of God's sovereignty in all things must pass "through" the cross till only what is of life in it appears on the other side.
> This is not parable, this is not conundrum, nor vagaries...to Christ.
> This is not poesy or dark sayings...to those in the light.
> God is indeed master of all, and a man will learn his own will, even in submission to what he may consider the most sublime truth of Christ, is still called to be put aside.
> For their is no life in a man's will.
> God alone wills life to man, and those who say they know him will be tested, whether their words and doctrine are simply of "themself", and not of him who has sent them.



Confirmation of the truth you are trying to avoid is strangely comforting.

Thank you Brother


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> I hear you but I just have to proclaim it. Perhaps the Lord will shut me up in short order. Until then, I just gotta proclaim it.





hummerpoo said:


> Confirmation of the truth you are trying to avoid is strangely comforting.
> 
> Thank you Brother



Scripture means everything to me.  Often, the words that come from me can be confusing and off the mark for the occasion.  That's why I love God's word so much.

What would you two brothers explain to be the purpose of the apostle Paul's first letter to the church in Corinth?

And what would you explain is the purpose of the letter this same apostle wrote to the churches in Galatia?


----------



## Israel

gemcgrew said:


> I hear you but I just have to proclaim it. Perhaps the Lord will shut me up in short order. Until then, I just gotta proclaim it.


The proclamation of Jesus as Lord, who is Lord, would put me in a very awkward place were I in any way to seek to suppress it.
And that awkwardness is not something with which I am unfamiliar. 
It often comes in fact, when either by word or deed I cross a line that both I and the Holy Spirit know I have been shown...it can come in excessive exuberance, misapprehending liberty, or even (and this is the one by which I am most often "chastened") a strident devotion to a goal in seeking to make others see Jesus in the same manner as I do. Or elevating my experience of the Lord to a position of superiority to the Lord, himself.

Unknowingly I easily confuse this with walking in the truth of presenting the gospel of our Lord...but refusing to understand the significance of being a useful vessel found in Paul's proclamation of having sought to know nothing among you save Jesus Christ and him crucified.

Like Moses, I have struck the rock far more times than I care to recount, while seeking to present myself as the Lord's friend. And, like Moses, I have spoken ill advisedly.

I know now, but often forget, (and am then found awkwardly chastened) I am disqualified as a teacher. And rightfully so. For when I sought to be one, that very desire was finally exposed as the precise disqualifying motive...for, if Jesus is indeed Lord of all...each of my ignorant words would contain a poison pill unknown to me except it be revealed "but I will show you he is "more" my Lord, than yours". As though I had indeed apprehended something I had not received, as though the word of God...had somehow originated with me.

Simply knowing this does not mean my always walking in this. But it is for me, a start. "I" am always an offense. 

"How then Lord? How do I fulfill what seems such a burdensome command now, to participate in the "making" of disciples, if all I say is contaminated with self...a once hidden infection that now is so plain and rife in my own sight? Where is the place of rest in such frustrations and exasperation? How can a frustrated man adequately testify, simply testify of the one whose works are full and complete and has sat down?"

Though I of myself refuse the lowest seat when called to a wedding feast (do I, as I have easily imagined before at times, believe I am the only invited?)...or do I see the deliverance from all my frustrations amongst all the others chosen as guests is found in an invitation...not to abase myself for the cause of religious exercise...but because that instruction is a gift to me...and I discover one who bids me sit beside him has already taken the lowest seat amongst us all.

Paul discovered no matter where he was "sent"...no matter what seeming ignorance or contradictory circumstance awaited...this gift of God was available to him at all times and he could not be moved from the true...to the apparent.
He called it a secret he had learned. 
For no matter how deep a calling to abasement in circumstance and experience he found himself invited...he always saw the one who sat there first...and was always waiting joyfully there for him to arrive.
And Paul was not ashamed.


----------



## hummerpoo

Ronnie T said:


> Scripture means everything to me.  Often, the words that come from me can be confusing and off the mark for the occasion.  That's why I love God's word so much.
> 
> What would you two brothers explain to be the purpose of the apostle Paul's first letter to the church in Corinth?
> 
> And what would you explain is the purpose of the letter this same apostle wrote to the churches in Galatia?



Ronnie, I must ask you patience as I am currently distracted from this question.  When I return I will be asking your meaning in the word "purpose", if you care to respond to such an inexact question you are welcome.


----------



## Ronnie T

hummerpoo said:


> Ronnie, I must ask you patience as I am currently distracted from this question.  When I return I will be asking your meaning in the word "purpose", if you care to respond to such an inexact question you are welcome.



Purpose:

Why did Paul write a letter to the Christians at Corinth?
Why did Paul put forth such an effort to communicate with these Christians?
Did the letter serve a realistic purpose in the lives of those Christians in Corinth?


----------



## Israel

If I might "chime" in. 
Maybe Paul understood there's a sending...and in that...a need to recognize those to whom one is sent?
I never seem to stray too far from something I've seen in these days when many seemingly roll out the red carpet of their hearts to Paul and his words. 

I think he would be amazed (maybe even is) at the reception. I believe his "experience" in the days of his flesh was a little different.
But like a good Father, under whom he was being instructed through Christ, he knew his children. And loved them.


----------



## gordon 2

Ronnie T said:


> Purpose:
> 
> Why did Paul write a letter to the Christians at Corinth?
> Why did Paul put forth such an effort to communicate with these Christians?
> Did the letter serve a realistic purpose in the lives of those Christians in Corinth?



I know I am not one of the two, but let me suggest an answer anyway.

Corinth done right, from a mission perspective, had the potential of evanglizing all the Mediteranian. It was ruled by the romans, and had significant roman(pagan), jewish and greek(pagan) populations. It was an economic hub and trading center and commerced with all the medi. From it people and news came and went.

And for the Galatians Paul's purpose was to clarify what it was to live by faith and what faith was and how that faith was given to christians for grace( the cross). 

It is kind of interesting that many's focus on Galatians is Paul's waxing on the law ( which he uses as a foil to show up faith) and that despite what Pauls says about death with Christ for the cross and to sin and guilt, we still wax well on our being "sinners"!   Not enough focus on Paul's faith pep talk perhaps--What is in us that we focus on Paul upside down? Are we pots calling kettles worldly?


----------



## hummerpoo

Ronnie T said:


> Purpose:
> 
> Why did Paul write a letter to the Christians at Corinth?
> Why did Paul put forth such an effort to communicate with these Christians?
> Did the letter serve a realistic purpose in the lives of those Christians in Corinth?



Why did Paul write a letter to the Christians at Corinth?The church ask him for help with a series of questions (7:1).  Besides, he was itching for an opportunity to straighten out some stuff he had been hearing (1:11).  It's only speculation on my part but he seems to have thought that what they were not asking about (political infighting and power struggles) was the more important issue.  He gave that topic more attention than any other. 

Why did Paul put forth such an effort to communicate with these Christians?I tend to think that he would do the same for any of the churches he had started but Corinth was unique.  It was renowned for its' hedonism, it had a strong Jewish community, as well as the Greek culture (1:22).  Any one of these cultural factors is an obstacle to the gospel message; combined they were a massive barrier. God's breaching of that barrier through Paul was eighteen months of difficult work (Acts 18:9-11), which I'm sure energized his efforts to renew the church to Spiritual growth.

Did the letter serve a realistic purpose in the lives of those Christians in Corinth? Yes, sanctification.  Success is attested to in the 7th chapter of 2 Cor., as well as 2:1-11.


----------



## Ronnie T

hummerpoo said:


> Why did Paul write a letter to the Christians at Corinth?The church ask him for help with a series of questions (7:1).  Besides, he was itching for an opportunity to straighten out some stuff he had been hearing (1:11).  It's only speculation on my part but he seems to have thought that what they were not asking about (political infighting and power struggles) was the more important issue.  He gave that topic more attention than any other.
> 
> Why did Paul put forth such an effort to communicate with these Christians?I tend to think that he would do the same for any of the churches he had started but Corinth was unique.  It was renowned for its' hedonism, it had a strong Jewish community, as well as the Greek culture (1:22).  Any one of these cultural factors is an obstacle to the gospel message; combined they were a massive barrier. God's breaching of that barrier through Paul was eighteen months of difficult work (Acts 18:9-11), which I'm sure energized his efforts to renew the church to Spiritual growth.
> 
> Did the letter serve a realistic purpose in the lives of those Christians in Corinth? Yes, sanctification.  Success is attested to in the 7th chapter of 2 Cor., as well as 2:1-11.



Man thanks.  Great response.

One of the things that's been asserted in this thread is that God mandates, causes and controls every thing that happens in a person's life.  
I'm wondering if anyone believes that God was controlling the minds of these Christians in Corinth as they erred in their understanding and obedience to Paul's previous teachings to them?

Were they having difficulties because of their freewill to have difficulties?    

Again, thanks so much for your explanation.


----------



## hummerpoo

Ronnie T said:


> Man thanks.  Great response.
> 
> One of the things that's been asserted in this thread is that God mandates, causes and controls every thing that happens in a person's life.
> I'm wondering if anyone believes that God was controlling the minds of these Christians in Corinth as they erred in their understanding and obedience to Paul's previous teachings to them?
> 
> Were they having difficulties because of their freewill to have difficulties?
> 
> Again, thanks so much for your explanation.



I'm sorry I misled you in my response.  Having reread my statement, I don't see where I strayed from my intent to restrict my response to the recounting of, and comment upon historical events, so I'm at a loss as to how to correct my error.

I spent considerable time attempting to avoid error in response to a serious inquiry.  If you will guide me, I will give you as much more as you require.


----------



## Israel

3Jn 1:4  I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth. 

Conversely, there is something less than joy experienced when this is not so.

The apostles loved their "charges" as their own dearly loved children...and the suffering they endured to present them complete in Christ, both blessed them, and impelled them to humble themselves to whatever measure necessary to see Christ formed in them.


2Co_12:21  And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

Those "fathers" diligently resisted talking down to their beloved converts, and learned through Christ a Godly discipline that did not exclude their own humbling, so that when they rose from their faces in repentance for all...they might have words of true correction...and life.


----------



## hummerpoo

Ronnie T said:


> Man thanks.  Great response.
> 
> One of the things that's been asserted in this thread is that God mandates, causes and controls every thing that happens in a person's life.
> I'm wondering if anyone believes that God was controlling the minds of these Christians in Corinth as they erred in their understanding and obedience to Paul's previous teachings to them?
> 
> Were they having difficulties because of their freewill to have difficulties?
> 
> Again, thanks so much for your explanation.


I take it from Israel's post that I again failed to communicate successfully, so I will try again.

I have no idea how your initial question relates, through my response, to your statement.  If you were attempting to set some kind of logical trap, I suppose you have succeeded, but I am unaware that I am caught.  I simply do not understand what you are saying, but I am willing to listen if you are willing to attempt a further explanation.

Perhaps a question will help: What does your question or my answer have to do with mind control?


----------



## StriperAddict

hummerpoo said:


> Perhaps a question will help: What does your question or my answer have to do with mind control?


 
Allow my ramblings in answering with a couple of questions.

Would God, in allowing for the Corinthian "errors", also foster the _initiation_ of those same errors... for a purpose?

Does the meaning "God is in Control" suggest He also _initiates_ evil?


----------



## JB0704

StriperAddict said:


> Does the meaning "God is in Control" suggest He also _initiates_ evil?



They have suggestd Job as an example of God allowing evil.  But, by their own doctrine, God must be the initiator of evil.  Otherwise, somebody else is in control of the evil action.

I think somebody mentioned it earlier, but without free-will, every atrocity in the world can be attributed to God.


----------



## Israel

Ronnie T said:


> Purpose:
> 
> Why did Paul write a letter to the Christians at Corinth?
> Why did Paul put forth such an effort to communicate with these Christians?
> Did the letter serve a realistic purpose in the lives of those Christians in Corinth?
> 
> Hummer:
> I take it from Israel's post that I again failed to communicate successfully, so I will try again.
> 
> I have no idea how your initial question relates, through my response, to your statement. If you were attempting to set some kind of logical trap, I suppose you have succeeded, but I am unaware that I am caught. I simply do not understand what you are saying, but I am willing to listen if you are willing to attempt a further explanation.
> 
> Perhaps a question will help: What does your question or my answer have to do with mind control?




I was only responding to Ronnie's question as to "why" I believe Paul wrote to the believers at Corinth.
He loved them. He couldn't "help" himself.


(Ha!
Do you get the kinda derivative reference to "pre" ordination/determination?)

But being less facetious...maybe we could look at whatever has such deep roots that causes any friction with election...and (what we call) free will. 
Frankly, I am just seeing two wills. But, one is free. One is not because it is in bondage. And it tries to mask that bondage by further licentiousness and excursions into rebellion against God's will.


----------



## hummerpoo

StriperAddict said:


> Allow my ramblings in answering with a couple of questions.
> 
> Would God, in allowing for the Corinthian "errors", also foster the _initiation_ of those same errors... for a purpose?
> 
> Does the meaning "God is in Control" suggest He also _initiates_ evil?



I held neither the smart end nor the dumb end of the measuring tape (Job 38:5) and I do not choose to stand before the whirlwind to be told "Now gird up your loins like a man”.


----------



## hummerpoo

JB0704 said:


> They have suggestd Job as an example of God allowing evil.  But, by their own doctrine, God must be the initiator of evil.  Otherwise, somebody else is in control of the evil action.
> 
> I think somebody mentioned it earlier, but without free-will, every atrocity in the world can be attributed to God.



Isaiah 40:
 13.  Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, Or as His counselor has informed Him?
 14.  With whom did He consult and {who} gave Him understanding? And {who} taught Him in the path of justice and taught Him knowledge And informed Him of the way of understanding?

Context required.


----------



## Michael F. Gray

Great example is Israel's first King, ...Saul who disobeyed the command of the Lord. David was selected by the Lord who sent Samuel the Prophet to annoint him with oil as the new king. Took a few years for it to fall into place, but the rest is history.


----------



## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> I was only responding to Ronnie's question as to "why" I believe Paul wrote to the believers at Corinth.
> He loved them. He couldn't "help" himself.
> 
> 
> (Ha!
> Do you get the kinda derivative reference to "pre" ordination/determination?)
> 
> But being less facetious...maybe we could look at whatever has such deep roots that causes any friction with election...and (what we call) free will.
> Frankly, I am just seeing two wills. But, one is free. One is not because it is in bondage. And it tries to mask that bondage by further licentiousness and excursions into rebellion against God's will.



Is not His love for creation shown in that the Son and the Spirit, and scripture and the law are provided to remove that mask?


----------



## JB0704

hummerpoo said:


> Isaiah 40:
> 13.  Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, Or as His counselor has informed Him?
> 14.  With whom did He consult and {who} gave Him understanding? And {who} taught Him in the path of justice and taught Him knowledge And informed Him of the way of understanding?
> 
> Context required.



HP, I missed something here.  Could you clarify what you are saying with this verse?


----------



## hummerpoo

JB0704 said:


> HP, I missed something here.  Could you clarify what you are saying with this verse?



There are examples in scripture which indicate that
what we refer to as "atrosity", could be His "path of justice".

I know that you can come up with examples to which I cannot respond,
but that is the point isn't it.


----------



## JB0704

hummerpoo said:


> I know that you can come up with examples to which I cannot respond,
> but that is the point isn't it.



No.  I think You misread my intentions. I'm interested in this line of thinking.



hummerpoo said:


> There are examples in scripture which indicate that
> what we refer to as "atrosity", could be His "path of justice".



Then, that would also make him the instigator of the evil.  This is why I have difficulty with y'alls position, not because I love my free will, but because it demonstrates that God creates sin and punishes man for it.  

In keeping with your previous comments relevant to which perspective elevates God, I tend to see that as diminishing God.....by his words because he would the one making the "sinner" sin.  He would be the source of evil.  Am I wrong in assuming that with the givens illustrated?  

I am asking sincerely, not being sarcastic.  Just want some insight into the perspective.


----------



## Artfuldodger

JB0704 said:


> In keeping with your previous comments relevant to which perspective elevates God, I tend to see that as diminishing God.....by his words because he would the one making the "sinner" sin.  He would be the source of evil.  Am I wrong in assuming that with the givens illustrated?
> 
> I am asking sincerely, not being sarcastic.  Just want some insight into the perspective.



I feel "election" and or "pre-destination" diminish God and him sending Jesus to save us. It makes it sound like he saved us from himself instead of sin & evil. It makes it appear that Satan is not God's enemy.


----------



## hummerpoo

JB0704 said:


> No.  I think You misread my intentions. I'm interested in this line of thinking.
> 
> 
> 
> Then, that would also make him the instigator of the evil.  This is why I have difficulty with y'alls position, not because I love my free will, but because it demonstrates that God creates sin and punishes man for it.
> 
> In keeping with your previous comments relevant to which perspective elevates God, I tend to see that as diminishing God.....by his words because he would the one making the "sinner" sin.  He would be the source of evil.  Am I wrong in assuming that with the givens illustrated?
> 
> I am asking sincerely, not being sarcastic.  Just want some insight into the perspective.



“I tend to see that as diminishing God”  OK...ask yourself why … not why does it diminish God, but why do you see it that way?  Do you not want God to have justice?  Do you want God to accomplish justice in a way that you approve?  Does God owe you an explanation?

Read all of Job 38...slowly.
Read all of Isaiah 40...slowly.
Do you know what God is doing?

I was being wheeled down the corridor on a gurney one time when a thought crossed my mind … If there was an ant on the floor who saw one of these wheels baring down on him, would he give any consideration to what these folks are trying to do for me?  Perspective.

--------------------------------------------------
Whoops!... I didn't answer your question ... Am I wrong in assuming that with the givens illustrated? 
  I don't know.


----------



## Ronnie T

hummerpoo said:


> I'm sorry I misled you in my response.  Having reread my statement, I don't see where I strayed from my intent to restrict my response to the recounting of, and comment upon historical events, so I'm at a loss as to how to correct my error.
> 
> I spent considerable time attempting to avoid error in response to a serious inquiry.  If you will guide me, I will give you as much more as you require.



Sorry, I've been out all day.
Now you've misunderstood me because I believe your response is totally spot on.  I have no problem at all with what you've said.  How could I?  Your response could not have been better.

I think it is a well thought out explanation of the purpose of Paul's letter.  You show great insight.
No sarcasm in any of this.  Thanks.


----------



## Ronnie T

Israel said:


> 3Jn 1:4  I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth.
> 
> Conversely, there is something less than joy experienced when this is not so.
> 
> The apostles loved their "charges" as their own dearly loved children...and the suffering they endured to present them complete in Christ, both blessed them, and impelled them to humble themselves to whatever measure necessary to see Christ formed in them.
> 
> 
> 2Co_12:21  And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
> 
> Those "fathers" diligently resisted talking down to their beloved converts, and learned through Christ a Godly discipline that did not exclude their own humbling, so that when they rose from their faces in repentance for all...they might have words of true correction...and life.



Totally agree Israel.
Don't you think Paul and John, if not all, felt eternally bound to those whom they had shared Christ with?


----------



## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> I feel "election" and or "pre-destination" diminish God and him sending Jesus to save us. It makes it sound like he saved us from himself instead of sin & evil. It makes it appear that Satan is not God's enemy.



I don't guide my own children into sin, why would God? satan has some control over some men in their sinning, how is God in control and also satan in control? Because God gave us free will and satan uses that against us, that's all satan has. Otherwise we of the 'elect' would never sin.


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## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> I feel "election" and or "pre-destination" diminish God and him sending Jesus to save us. It makes it sound like he saved us from himself instead of sin & evil. It makes it appear that Satan is not God's enemy.



If we are presaved we wouldn't need Jesus to stand at the door and knock, would we? or much less suffer a horrorfying death...we'd just be saved before the foundation of the earth and that would be that. Why would Christ have to die for people who were already saved? If you're already saved before birth, then no need for a saviour. Pre-selection does diminish what Christ has done. If He makes us chose Him without our own free will, what's surrender all about then?


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## Artfuldodger

mtnwoman said:


> If we are presaved we wouldn't need Jesus to stand at the door and knock, would we? or much less suffer a horrorfying death...we'd just be saved before the foundation of the earth and that would be that. Why would Christ have to die for people who were already saved? If you're already saved before birth, then no need for a saviour. Pre-selection does diminish what Christ has done. If He makes us chose Him without our own free will, what's surrender all about then?



It's a strange concept to me personally that just doesn't jive. Praying, witnessing, helping, loving others, loving God, and being obedient, humble, & meek would not be of any importance if God did not give me the ability to perform them. It would diminish God to be only a Puppet Master and making people Love him. I think we should view God as a Father and our covenant as a marriage. I would hate to think my wife only loved me because I make her do it. I would hate to think my children only loved me for the same reason.


----------



## Israel

hummerpoo said:


> Is not His love for creation shown in that the Son and the Spirit, and scripture and the law are provided to remove that mask?


Oh...yes...and amen.

In the most rudimentary sense of "free" exercise of will, and a ridiculous one at that, may I hsare what I see of it? (As though I already haven't)

When I was a child I knew I was free to choose whatever fruit I liked...apples, oranges, grapes, strawberries.
What I did not know was that mangoes also existed. I could say I was free, I could tell the fruit vendor I could choose any fruit I wanted, and of those, I liked grapes the best.
"But have you ever tasted mango?" he said.
"Mango? I asked, "We have not so much as heard whether there be any mango." (Acts 19:2)

Was I really "free" to choose any fruit? Of course, to me I previously was. Yet, how could I choose of which I had never even heard? Something that in my own consciousness, till then, did not even exist?



I find it so with the gospel. God brings life and immortality to light...through something that I could never have chosen "on my own". But the moment I hear, I am now set free to choose something (actually someone) of which (of whom) I was previously ignorant.
Does God hold this ignorance against me? God forbid!

Rom_10:14  How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 

But once the gospel is heard...it comes with the liberty to make a "free" choice...accept or reject. That is where I am "set" free. (but here the fruit analogy breaks down, for I am not accepting or rejecting something as simple as a created object, I am accepting or rejecting something of no less consequence than ALL truth)

And so, in that exchange before God (the Holy Spirit is already here amongst us all)...I either say "Yes, the true God is true"...or...not.

And God is actually making real the consequences of every man's free choice of that...even in their own experience. For every man is discovering the course set by his reaction to Jesus, as Lord...they are discovering, from faith to faith, and glory to glory. 
Likewise, at his refusal, all their "own truth" crumbling before their eyes. (and they know it...and God sees it...but until they, or unless they, repent...they continue to seek to "suppress the truth in unrighteousness")
It seems we think we are free of a master...but each man actually chooses whom he will serve...
(Bob Dylan understood this and sung about it)

We answer this when we hear the gospel. God you are true...or God, you lie.

Yes, God unmasks. By freedom. Free to believe the truth, and receive the love of it...and likewise free, to be turned over to a strong delusion.

And that is what I meant by going even deeper into a strong delusion by manifesting licentiousness and rebellion. For, if one rejects the truth...one has sided with the enemy of all truth...and that enemy will make his
"works" known...as he is allowed, and able...till he no longer is a useful tool.

And even that tool serves a functional use.

1Co_5:5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 

But this, perhaps, is something that is not fit for discussion, yet.


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Then, that would also make him the instigator of the evil.  This is why I have difficulty with y'alls position, not because I love my free will, but because it demonstrates that God creates sin and punishes man for it.



Perhaps God planned it and God made it happen, all of it. If God is not in control of everything, it would mean that "God" is not God at all. We can jump through hoops all day long trying to avoid it but this is his creation. Perhaps God is the author of evil and sin, or evil and sin would have never existed. 

Perhaps God has never imposed a moral precept upon himself saying that he can never cause his creatures to violate his moral precepts.

"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"

Perhaps Paul addressed this when he said "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"


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## JB0704

hummerpoo said:


> “I tend to see that as diminishing God”  OK...ask yourself why … not why does it diminish God, but why do you see it that way?  Do you not want God to have justice?  Do you want God to accomplish justice in a way that you approve?  Does God owe you an explanation?
> 
> Read all of Job 38...slowly.
> Read all of Isaiah 40...slowly.
> Do you know what God is doing?
> 
> I was being wheeled down the corridor on a gurney one time when a thought crossed my mind … If there was an ant on the floor who saw one of these wheels baring down on him, would he give any consideration to what these folks are trying to do for me?  Perspective.




Isaiah 40:11


> 11 He tends his flock like a shepherd: He gathers the lambs in his arms and carries them close to his heart; he gently leads those that have young.




I understand what your saying, but this ^^^ is kind-of what I'm saying about the nature of God.  Does that make sense?



hummerpoo said:


> Whoops!... I didn't answer your question ... Am I wrong in assuming that with the givens illustrated?
> I don't know.



If God operates the way you fellas are demonstrating, God would _have_ to be the source of evil, as in "no free will" or, he "wouldn't be God."  I'm not being sarcastic with that.  It just seems that God has to create the circumstances for sin under that belief system.

Can God be the God described in Job 38, and man be free to choose him?


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## Israel

gemcgrew said:


> Perhaps God planned it and God made it happen, all of it. If God is not in control of everything, it would mean that "God" is not God at all. We can jump through hoops all day long trying to avoid it but this is his creation. Perhaps God is the author of evil and sin, or evil and sin would have never existed.
> 
> Perhaps God has never imposed a moral precept upon himself saying that he can never cause his creatures to violate his moral precepts.
> 
> "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"
> 
> Perhaps Paul addressed this when he said "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
> _Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?_ Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,"



Do we see? The moment we reply (if we reply)...we are engaged. If I say to God...then why did you make me a sinner...I admit I am one. But he didn't come to condemn...he came to fix.

If I believe [enough] to respond, then I also have faith to receive the remedy...how can I say to the repairman..."I hate your company because my washer broke!"...

"Well, that may be so...sir...but I am here to fix it...do you want it so? Or do you just care to complain?"

Sometimes we hate the company so much we don't let the repairman in. And we can be content to tell everyone just how terrible the company is...while our clothes rot off our backs in filth.
Of course this analogy doesn't hold true...because the repairman...in the course of his fixing eventually says ..."Ahhh, I have discovered the problem...someone attempted to wash something with an open tube of super glue in the pocket!"..."Look, here's the tube"
(For the washer was not designed to work in the presence of super glue)

At which point we either say "OH, so that's why I couldn't find it to fix my favorite coffee mug handle!" (sorry)

Or:

Hey, somebody did that at the factory! It wasn't me! (Inwardly saying darn, now I gotta buy some more super glue to fix my coffee mug.)



You may be amazed, as I always am, at how many prefer to complain than be fixed. Perhaps this is because complaining is "in our own power"...but fixing is not.
And so, I am always amazed...how we prefer our own destruction to God's creation.
Till of course, I see how merciful he is to me...and then...I am even more amazed.
And I am reminded...


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## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Perhaps God planned it and God made it happen, all of it. If God is not in control of everything, it would mean that "God" is not God at all. We can jump through hoops all day long trying to avoid it but this is his creation. Perhaps God is the author of evil and sin, or evil and sin would have never existed.
> 
> Perhaps God has never imposed a moral precept upon himself saying that he can never cause his creatures to violate his moral precepts.



That's the problem with explaining the sovereignty of God in such a way which excludes human choice... people start to define Him in a way which contradicts the Bible.  As an example, your definition of "God" means He leads people into sin.  James 1:13ff  states... let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being temped by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and He himself tempts no one."  

Your statements also are contradicted by 1 John 2:16... "for all that is in the word - the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions - is not from the Father but is from the world."

God is no less "sovereign" because He allows people to make their own choices... He doesn't have to "puppeteer" in order for sovereignty to exist.  In fact, one can make a valid case that only a sovereign God could design things in such a way to include (not exclude) human choice.


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## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> That's the problem with explaining the sovereignty of God in such a way which excludes human choice... people start to define Him in a way which contradicts the Bible.  As an example, your definition of "God" means He leads people into sin.  James 1:13ff  states... let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being temped by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and He himself tempts no one."


James is not discussing sovereignty and human freedom. He is not discussing metaphysics. He is discussing faith and responsibility from our perspective.   



Bama4me said:


> Your statements also are contradicted by 1 John 2:16... "for all that is in the word - the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions - is not from the Father but is from the world."


"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."(1 John 2:16)
Has nothing to do with our discussion.




Bama4me said:


> God is no less "sovereign" because He allows people to make their own choices... He doesn't have to "puppeteer" in order for sovereignty to exist.  In fact, one can make a valid case that only a sovereign God could design things in such a way to include (not exclude) human choice.


God decreed the acts of men, and men are none the less responsible. 

"Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:"(Acts 2:23)
"But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled."(Acts 3:18)
"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."(Acts 4:27,28) 
"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."(Genesis 50:20)


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## hummerpoo

JB0704 said:


> Isaiah 40:11
> I understand what your saying, but this ^^^ is kind-of what I'm saying about the nature of God.  Does that make sense?
> 
> Makes sense to me; to bad for the lambs if the Shepherd doesn’t have the power (and incidentally, the desire/will) to do what ever is necessary to maintain His position as Shepherd (I think that conveys the idea I’m after).  Somewhere back on this thread is my view of Rm. 8:28; what is good for God is our greatest good.
> 
> If God operates the way you fellas are demonstrating, God would _have_ to be the source of evil, as in "no free will" or, he "wouldn't be God."  I'm not being sarcastic with that.  It just seems that God has to create the circumstances for sin under that belief system.
> 
> The above was supposed to say “I don’t know but…’ You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?’”(Rm. 9) but I looked for the passage for about an hour yesterday afternoon (I was off work) and couldn’t find it.  Should have ask for help, huh.
> Your logic is correct, and there is scripture to back it up (Gem supplied several).  I confess to some hesitation, I will wait for the missing jot or tittle before confirming what is man’s logic unconfirmed (for me) by the Spirit.
> 
> Can God be the God described in Job 38, and man be free to choose him?
> 
> Not without ignoring a ton of scripture which says otherwise.  Wouldn’t it be nice if man could be in control?  Oops, that was a dumb statement, chaos theory confirmed, life as we know it gone in a day.



...


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## Israel

Adam always thinks there's a better way than obedience.


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## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> Adam always thinks there's a better way than obedience.


----------



## JB0704

hummerpoo said:


> ...



Good post HP.  You and Gem give me a lot to think over.


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## Artfuldodger

JB0704 said:


> Good post HP.  You and Gem give me a lot to think over.



You are a little more open minded like me. I asked on another post for people to read the Bible in a different context. Not to necessarily change their mind but to see what the other person sees. I can surely see the predestination side. There are lots of verses to promote this belief. I've read them and considered the predestination belief. Then I put that mindset aside and read the same verses with my free will glasses on. I'd hate to think everything is based on the belief of my parents. I know that isn't true as my ancestors were Primitive Baptist. Later my ancestors were Holiness Baptist. They were more in line with the Methodist teachings of Wesley.
Lots of Holiness Baptist history in and around Coffee County and south Georgia.


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## JB0704

Artfuldodger said:


> You are a little more open minded like me. I asked on another post for people to read the Bible in a different context. Not to necessarily change their mind but to see what the other person sees. I can surely see the predestination side. There are lots of verses to promote this belief. I've read them and considered the predestination belief. Then I put that mindset aside and read the same verses with my free will glasses on. I'd hate to think everything is based on the belief of my parents. I know that isn't true as my ancestors were Primitive Baptist. Later my ancestors were Holiness Baptist. They were more in line with the Methodist teachings of Wesley.
> Lots of Holiness Baptist history in and around Coffee County and south Georgia.



Thanks.  The thing is....well, I'm not sure on a lot of this stuff.  I fight so hard to seperate what is ingrained through my childhood teaching and what is actually there.  Osas is a great example of something that I can't really "claim" one side or the other.  There are many subjects where I am certain that what I was taught was wrong, and there are other areas where I believe "they" were right.

I know that seems weak, but it's the truth.  The man who had the most impact on me from a spiritual perspective was the first preacher I ever met who, when confronted with one of my ridiculous unanswerable questions I would toss out at Christians, responded "I don't know."  That was refreshing coming from a background where doubt and uncertainty were equivalent to cohortin' with the devil 

So, I am open minded because......"I don't know."  Often that is mistaken on here for sarcasm, but, any position should be able to stand the test of questioning because it was questions that led to the position being developed.


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## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> James is not discussing sovereignty and human freedom. He is not discussing metaphysics. He is discussing faith and responsibility from our perspective.
> 
> 
> "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."(1 John 2:16)
> Has nothing to do with our discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> God decreed the acts of men, and men are none the less



If you can't/won't see the truth of these two passages, you cannot be convinced.  You are attributing sin and the existence of evil to God... not from a view that He allows it because humans choose it, but from a view that He is the One who originates and promotes it.  Both of these passages (and more) completely refute this idea... I'm at a loss to further discuss this topic if you can't be convinced by Scripture.


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## Artfuldodger

I think "I don't know" is a good answer. The Bible doesn't say for sure on lots of things, we can speculate or just say "I don't know" or "let the mystery be".


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## Israel

A wise parent limits his children's choices. Not out of a sense he desires to withhold, but of their love.
"Jimmy...it's going to be a sunny day today...would you like to play with the ball? The wagon? Your pull toy? Or my .44 Magnum?"

Joh_16:12  I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 

Some things we are told. And then told to shout from the housetops.
Some things we may think we have discovered because we were smart enough to stand on a chair and peer amongst the things daddy has put on the top shelf in his closet.
God knows.
Being predestined to die for the sake of others sometimes takes all the fun out of just talking "about" the Lord's stuff. 
But didn't daddy say all his stuff is mine?
Indeed. 
Just remember you heard all those promises faithfully recorded by...men.
Men who knew the price, and sometimes...even the woe of playing with stuff for our own entertainment.

Zeal is a peculiar thing...it has the power to energize us...and that always "feels good".
We just never know...till the Lord appears...where the "power" comes from.

Saul once moved like a locomotive:

Act 9:1  And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, 

But later bared his breasts:
1Th_2:7  But we were gentle among you, even as a nurse cherisheth her children:


I think it was Pogo who said "We have met the enemy and he is us..."


Perhaps to borrow from one boggy swamp denizen to another:

"Election has consequences"


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## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> If you can't/won't see the truth of these two passages, you cannot be convinced.


The passages are true but you are using them to refute something that I am not saying. God himself does not tempt but he controls the tempter and the tempted. The Father does not lust, men do, and he makes them responsible. This is what God does and he does it in a way that does not make him a wrongdoer.


Bama4me said:


> You are attributing sin and the existence of evil to God...


Who's creation is this? Almighty God's?


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## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> So, I am open minded because......"I don't know."  Often that is mistaken on here for sarcasm, but, any position should be able to stand the test of questioning because it was questions that led to the position being developed.


I think that "I don't know", more often than not, is translated as "its not knowable". For many, that is just simply the case.

"And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."(Matthew 16:17)

Peter did not come to know him on his own, and no man revealed this to him. We do not know Christ by human learning.


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## Ronnie T

Bama4me said:


> If you can't/won't see the truth of these two passages, you cannot be convinced.  You are attributing sin and the existence of evil to God... not from a view that He allows it because humans choose it, but from a view that He is the One who originates and promotes it.  Both of these passages (and more) completely refute this idea... I'm at a loss to further discuss this topic if you can't be convinced by Scripture.



I'm afraid that's often the case.
It's so easy to base all one's beliefs from one area of God's word, and ignore what God has revealed from other areas.


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## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> I think that "I don't know", more often than not, is translated as "its not knowable". For many, that is just simply the case.
> 
> "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."(Matthew 16:17)
> 
> Peter did not come to know him on his own, and no man revealed this to him. We do not know Christ by human learning.



Dang, Gem, I put that on a Tee for 'ya!  

You sure as heck didn't miss it


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## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Dang, Gem, I put that on a Tee for 'ya!
> 
> You sure as heck didn't miss it


JB, my comment was not meant in any way to be a dig at you. Believers grow in spiritual knowledge. It is available to every believer through prayer and study.


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## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> JB, my comment was not meant in any way to be a dig at you. Believers grow in spiritual knowledge. It is available to every believer through prayer and study.


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## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


>


I wanted to address more of your post but was crunched for time. The Lord has been interfering with my imaginary free will. He is closing doors in GA and opening doors in TX. We are busy packing in preparation for a move.


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## StriperAddict

gemcgrew said:


> The Lord has been interfering with my imaginary free will.


 


gotta love this place


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> I wanted to address more of your post but was crunched for time. The Lord has been interfering with my imaginary free will. He is closing doors in GA and opening doors in TX. We are busy packing in preparation for a move.



Texas, there ain't nothing in Texas but _____.


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## stringmusic

String wuz here.....


527 posts and I just realized that I hadn't posted in this thread.


----------

