# Purgatory...yes it is Scriptural



## Pale Blue Dun (Jan 27, 2008)

You just have to look at scripture pre-Reformation.

http://www.aboutcatholics.com/life_in_christ/where_purgatory_bible/


The Bible does not mention the exact word "purgatory," but instead it makes reference to a place. To claim that it does not exist because of this is a cop out.

You might as well even deny that there is a book called the Bible because no such name is found in the inspired writings.

You also might as well deny the Trinity, Incarnation, etc... because these words are not found in the Bible.

The name does not make the place; the place must exist first, then we give it a name. We call this place "purgatory" because it means "a cleansing place." Therein souls are purged from the small stains of sin, which prevent their immediate entrance into Heaven.

In the Old Testament 
The first mention of Purgatory in the Bible is in 2 Maccabees 12:46: "Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from sin."

Granted 2 Maccabees may not be in Protestant Bibles, but even if it cannot be used doctrinally then it at least has to have some historical worth. In it we can see what the pre-Christian community believed.

In Chapter 12 we can see Scriptural proof for Purgatory and evidence that the Jews had sacrifices offered for those of their brothers who had lost their lives in battle. That the Jews prayed for the dead shows that they believed in a place where they could be helped (now called Purgatory) and that the prayers of their living brothers and sisters could help them in that place.

These words in the book of Maccabees had so clearly favored the Catholic custom, that the whole book was removed from the Protestant Bible. Unfortunately for them, even if the book was not inspired, it still tells us of the practice of God's chosen people.

In the New Testament 
In Matthew 5:26 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation. "Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny." Now we know that no last penny needs to be paid in Heaven and from ************ there is no liberation at all; hence the reference must apply to a third place.

Matthew 12:32 says, "And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

The same person as in the previously mentioned verse, Matthew, speaks of sin against the Holy Spirit. The implication is that some sins can be forgiven in the world to come. But not in ************ from which there is no liberation; nor in Heaven because nothing imperfect can enter it as we see in the next part. Any remission of sin cannot occur in either of these places because they are a final destination unlike purgatory.

Revelation 21:27: "...but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who does abominable things or tells lies." The place that is to be entered (the place to which this passage refers) is heaven (read the stuff around it for context).

The Bible clearly implies a place for temporary punishment after we die in the many passages which tell that God will reward or punish according to man's works.

What if purgatory really doesn't exist? 
Say that there is no such thing as purgatory. What becomes of us? The Bible declares that nothing impurified can enter Heaven, but yet a careless word can defile the soul (Matthew 12:36); if there is no place of temporary punishment, the one guilty would be ****************** to ************!

Who would be saved? Those who teach against purgatory teach an unreasonable doctrine.

So, why do non-Catholics reject a teaching so full of consolation? My guess is that they want to believe that the merits of Christ applied to the sinner who trusts in Him, will remove all sin; hence the believer will go at once to Heaven (also known as the belief called Sola Fide or faith alone).

Nowhere in the Bible does it say faith alone. This is un-Scriptural, since Christ tells us that to enter into life we must keep the commandments, hear the Church, do the will of His Father and much more with faith. Yes, actions plus faith.


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## dawg2 (Jan 27, 2008)

I can't wait to hear the comments on this one from OSAS.  Should make for a controversial morning.  I'm adding this to my subscriptions...just to peek in every so often.  

But I do think it sad that Maccabees is not in the Protestant Bible.  There is some great scripture in there.


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## SBG (Jan 27, 2008)

Really no way to discuss this. Maccabees is not scripture.


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## dawg2 (Jan 27, 2008)

SBG said:


> Really no way to discuss this. Maccabees is not scripture.



Oh man...why not?


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## SBG (Jan 27, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Oh man...why not?





Or I should say it is not for me...that is why we will never be able to have complete unity.


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## dawg2 (Jan 27, 2008)

SBG said:


> Or I should say it is not for me...that is why we will never be able to have complete unity.



That is where you are wrong.  We will, it is in the Bible.


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## SBG (Jan 27, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> That is where you are wrong.  We will, it is in the Bible.



I agree with you if you are referring to the millenial reign. But, there will never again be unity until Christ's return.


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## dawg2 (Jan 27, 2008)

SBG said:


> I agree with you if you are referring to the millenial reign. But, there will never again be unity until Christ's return.



It can begin.


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## SBG (Jan 27, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> It can begin.



I don't believe it can. The scriptures tell of the great falling away, and that some people will wax worse and worse. I believe that if there was complete unity, that the return of Christ would not be required...if you know what I mean?


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## dawg2 (Jan 27, 2008)

SBG said:


> I don't believe it can. The scriptures tell of the great falling away, and that some people will wax worse and worse. I believe that if there was complete unity, that the return of Christ would not be required...if you know what I mean?



But we all have the common enemy...the former "Minister Of Music" in Heaven.


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## SBG (Jan 27, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> But we all have the common enemy...the former "Minister Of Music" in Heaven.



No doubt about that. When I mean unity, I mean that all christians will be under one banner on a corporate level. That is why I think that the modern ecumenical movement will never produce sufficient fruit to be worth the effort.


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## dawg2 (Jan 27, 2008)

Isn't it worth a try though?


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## SBG (Jan 27, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Isn't it worth a try though?



Frankly, I don't. I feel that the more time that we spend trying to patch up old wounds, that is time that could be spent in evangelizing the world. I'm sure some will counter that we should be able to do both in parallel, but I think that we are better off doing what our strong suits are. 

Let's face it, the non-Catholics are never going to allow the Catholics to have more say so in the matter and vice versa. 

Now that we have completely derailed this thread...


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## 60Grit (Jan 27, 2008)

There is a special place in Purgatory for Thread Derailleurs...


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## dawg2 (Jan 27, 2008)

60Grit said:


> There is a special place in Purgatory for Thread Derailleurs...



What's up with the "U"


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## SBG (Jan 27, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> What's up with the "U"





He's french!


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## 60Grit (Jan 27, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> What's up with the "U"


 
That was added especially for certain folks that have an affinity for them in their words....


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## crackerdave (Jan 27, 2008)

But if you act now and send $19.99 before midnight,you can BUY your way out of "purgatory!"

But WAIT - there's more!!


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## 60Grit (Jan 27, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> But if you act now and send $19.99 before midnight,you can BUY your way out of "purgatory!"
> 
> But WAIT - there's more!!


 

I only had to pay $19.95.


What??? Are you pocketing the .04 or something??


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## crackerdave (Jan 27, 2008)

60Grit said:


> I only had to pay $19.95.
> 
> 
> What??? Are you pocketing the .04 or something??



Yes - a tip for  Father McClanahan!


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## dawg2 (Jan 27, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> But if you act now and send $19.99 before midnight,you can BUY your way out of "purgatory!"
> 
> But WAIT - there's more!!




Actually now, you can just light a votive candle

....and it begins anew....Lourdy, Lourdy


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## 60Grit (Jan 27, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Actually now, you can just light a votive candle
> 
> ....and it begins anew....Lourdy, Lourdy


 

I thought they are voutife candles...


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## dawg2 (Jan 27, 2008)

60Grit said:


> I thought they are voutife candles...



That's the Orthodox Church


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## Pale Blue Dun (Jan 27, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> But if you act now and send $19.99 before midnight,you can BUY your way out of "purgatory!"
> 
> But WAIT - there's more!!



Or....

you can have your grandmother send her Social Security Check to Ernest Angley and she'll get there faster!

BE HEEEYELLED!!!


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## packrat (Jan 27, 2008)

*CUROSITY*

I'M FIRST TO ADMIT THAT I'M CLUELESS TO THIS "PURGATORY THING", I BELIEVE IN THREE PLACES.
1. HEAVEN 2.HELLo& 3.EARTH (THAT'S WHERE YOU MAKE YOUR DECISION ABOUT THE FIRST TWO.) COULD ANYONE PLEASE "ELABORATE" / "NOT DEBATE" THE FOLLOWING SCRIPTURES AND TELL ME WHERE THE RICH MAN IS AT THIS TIME. TAKE NOTE THAT HE WAS RICH AND FARED WELL, SO HE COULD HAVE HAD THIS BEGGAR REMOVED AT ANY TIME. I HAVE THIS FEELING THAT THIS RICH MAN MUST HAVE AT LEAST ALLOWED "LAZARUS" TO HANG AROUND TO RECEIVE HIS LEFTOVERS AT LEAST ONCE. WILL THIS RICH MAN BE CLEANSED IN "PURGATORY" AND SENT TO HEAVEN? I READ THE WHOLE STORY AND FIND THAT HE IS DEFINATELY "DEEP SOUTH" AND IS PLEADING FOR HIS FAMILY NOT TO FOLLOW HIS STEPS.
OPEN TO SERIOUS COMMENTS ABOUT THIS. VERSE 23 TELLS ME WHERE HE IS TO STAY, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR WHAT OTHERS WITH DIFFERENT BELIEFS HAVE TO SAY. I'M NOT ON THIS TOPIC TO CHANGE ANYONES BELIEFS, AS ANY ANSWERS WILL NOT CHANGE MINE. GOD LET'S US DECIDE HOW WE WANT TO BELIEVE, BUT I AM CURIOUS TO HEAR OTHER VIEWS ON THIS SCRIPTURE.

LUKE CHAPTER 16
19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:


20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,


21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.


22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;


23 And in HELLo he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.


25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.


26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.


27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:


28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.


29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.


30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.


31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.


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## FishFanatic (Jan 27, 2008)

In response to the original thread.....I would say "great".  What do you want me to do now?  Do I need to change anything?


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## farmasis (Jan 27, 2008)

> In the New Testament
> In Matthew 5:26 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of liberation only after expiation. "Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny." Now we know that no last penny needs to be paid in Heaven and from ************ there is no liberation at all; hence the reference must apply to a third place.



Romans 3:24-25 
24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,

Colossians 2
 13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature,* God made you[c] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross.




			Matthew 12:32 says, "And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."
The same person as in the previously mentioned verse, Matthew, speaks of sin against the Holy Spirit. The implication is that some sins can be forgiven in the world to come. But not in ************ from which there is no liberation; nor in Heaven because nothing imperfect can enter it as we see in the next part. Any remission of sin cannot occur in either of these places because they are a final destination unlike purgatory.
		
Click to expand...


Mark explains the passage. The pharisees were saying Jesus's power came from an evil source. They jejected Jesus as the son of God, the only sin to seperate us from God. The sin of unbelief.

Mark 3
28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." 

 30He said this because they were saying, "He has an evil spirit."





			Revelation 21:27: "...but nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who does abominable things or tells lies." The place that is to be entered (the place to which this passage refers) is heaven (read the stuff around it for context).

The Bible clearly implies a place for temporary punishment after we die in the many passages which tell that God will reward or punish according to man's works.

What if purgatory really doesn't exist? 
Say that there is no such thing as purgatory. What becomes of us? The Bible declares that nothing impurified can enter Heaven, but yet a careless word can defile the soul (Matthew 12:36); if there is no place of temporary punishment, the one guilty would be ****************** to ************!
		
Click to expand...

Romans 8
 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. 




			Who would be saved? Those who teach against purgatory teach an unreasonable doctrine.
		
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Luke 18
26Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?" 

 27Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God." 





			So, why do non-Catholics reject a teaching so full of consolation? My guess is that they want to believe that the merits of Christ applied to the sinner who trusts in Him, will remove all sin; hence the believer will go at once to Heaven (also known as the belief called Sola Fide or faith alone).
		
Click to expand...


Isaiah 53
4 Surely he took up our infirmities 
       and carried our sorrows, 
       yet we considered him stricken by God, 
       smitten by him, and afflicted. 

 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, 
       he was crushed for our iniquities; 
       the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, 
       and by his wounds we are healed. 




			Nowhere in the Bible does it say faith alone. This is un-Scriptural, since Christ tells us that to enter into life we must keep the commandments, hear the Church, do the will of His Father and much more with faith. Yes, actions plus faith.
		
Click to expand...


Romans 5:1-2
 1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we[a]have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand.

My problems with purgatory are that it conflicts with the Biblical facts that Jesus paid our sin debt and that we are justified by something other than faith. It also allows us to think we can do something to remove our sin ourselves.*


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## 60Grit (Jan 28, 2008)

OK, who left the back door open !!!???


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## PJason (Jan 28, 2008)

I have a talk given by Father Corapi on Purgatory if anyone is interested. Just PM me and I will get it to you.


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## packrat (Jan 28, 2008)

*2nd Request*



packrat said:


> I'M FIRST TO ADMIT THAT I'M CLUELESS TO THIS "PURGATORY THING", I BELIEVE IN THREE PLACES.
> 1. HEAVEN 2.HELLo& 3.EARTH (THAT'S WHERE YOU MAKE YOUR DECISION ABOUT THE FIRST TWO.) COULD ANYONE PLEASE "ELABORATE" / "NOT DEBATE" THE FOLLOWING SCRIPTURES AND TELL ME WHERE THE RICH MAN IS AT THIS TIME. TAKE NOTE THAT HE WAS RICH AND FARED WELL, SO HE COULD HAVE HAD THIS BEGGAR REMOVED AT ANY TIME. I HAVE THIS FEELING THAT THIS RICH MAN MUST HAVE AT LEAST ALLOWED "LAZARUS" TO HANG AROUND TO RECEIVE HIS LEFTOVERS AT LEAST ONCE. WILL THIS RICH MAN BE CLEANSED IN "PURGATORY" AND SENT TO HEAVEN? I READ THE WHOLE STORY AND FIND THAT HE IS DEFINATELY "DEEP SOUTH" AND IS PLEADING FOR HIS FAMILY NOT TO FOLLOW HIS STEPS.
> OPEN TO SERIOUS COMMENTS ABOUT THIS. VERSE 23 TELLS ME WHERE HE IS TO STAY, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR WHAT OTHERS WITH DIFFERENT BELIEFS HAVE TO SAY. I'M NOT ON THIS TOPIC TO CHANGE ANYONES BELIEFS, AS ANY ANSWERS WILL NOT CHANGE MINE. GOD LET'S US DECIDE HOW WE WANT TO BELIEVE, BUT I AM CURIOUS TO HEAR OTHER VIEWS ON THIS SCRIPTURE.
> 
> ...



THE FLOOR IS STILL OPEN TO ANSWERS OR IDEAS THAT YOU MAY WANT TO SHARE ABOUT MY FIRST POST. I HONESTLY WANT TO HEAR WHAT SOME OF THE PURGATORY BELIEVERS THINK ABOUT THIS SCRIPTURE.


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## dawg2 (Jan 28, 2008)

packrat said:


> THE FLOOR IS STILL OPEN TO ANSWERS OR IDEAS THAT YOU MAY WANT TO SHARE ABOUT MY FIRST POST. I HONESTLY WANT TO HEAR WHAT SOME OF THE PURGATORY BELIEVERS THINK ABOUT THIS SCRIPTURE.



Where did Jesus go after he died?


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## dawg2 (Jan 28, 2008)

"Everyone will be salted with fire." (Mark 9:49) 

"And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age, or in the age to come." (Matthew 12:32) 

"My son, do not disdain the discipline of the Lord or lose heart when reproved by him; for whom the Lord loves, he likewise disciplines; he scourges every son he acknowledges." (Proverbs 3:11-12 and Hebrews 12:6-7).


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## Tim L (Jan 28, 2008)

Well for alot of us, the term "Purgatory" is a real mystery.  Could someone that belives in the concept of purgatory define how it is different from heaven and ****?  Why would one go to purgatory instead of heaven or ****?  How would one go from purgatory to heaven?  Would it be possible to go from purgatory to ****?


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## PJason (Jan 28, 2008)

Rouster said:


> Well for alot of us, the term "Purgatory" is a real mystery.  Could someone that belives in the concept of purgatory define how it is different from heaven and ****?  Why would one go to purgatory instead of heaven or ****?  How would one go from purgatory to heaven?  Would it be possible to go from purgatory to ****?



Purgatory like Heaven and ************ has no time. Purgatory is not a permanent destination from purgatory you go onto Heaven. Purgatory is where you are purified of all your venial sins, before entering Heaven. It’s where all your wood and hay are burnt off leaving only silver and gold; it makes you clean so you can enter Heaven. No you can not go from ************ to purgatory to Heaven. No you can not go from purgatory to ************, because sin can not cross the threshold of death, you can not commit a sin in purgatory.


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## toddboucher (Jan 28, 2008)

here we go again-


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## Ulysses (Jan 28, 2008)

Some interesting scriptural references about Purgatory here, if anyone is interested:

*What good are prayers for the dead? If a person is in heaven, he doesn’t need prayers, and if he is ******************, then no amount of prayers will help him.*


Catholics and Protestants can agree on two things regarding the afterlife: Souls in ************ will not grow close to God, and those in heaven cannot draw any nearer to him. If purgatory does not exist, prayers for the dead are useless. But if a state of purification exists for some after death, and if prayers can help others in their process of sanctification in this life (Job 1:5; 1 Thess. 5:23), it seems reasonable that prayers would be beneficial to those who are being sanctified after this life. This narrows down the essential question: Does purgatory exist? 

If sin still clings to Christians (Heb 12:1), but there is no sin in heaven (Rev. 21:27), there must be a purification that takes place after one’s death and before one enters heaven. Even if it were "in the blink of an eye," this final stage of sanctification must take place, so those who die in God’s favor may be cleansed if any affection for sin remains in them. 

Paul mentions this in 1 Cor. 3:13–15: "Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." 

Paul’s thought calls to mind the image of God as the refiner’s fire and fuller’s soap mentioned in Malachi 3:2. The fuller’s soap was lye or alkaline salt that removed stains from clothing. A refiner’s fire was an oven of intense heat where precious metals were placed in order to purify them of their corrosion and dross. In the same way, purgatory is when a soul is immersed into the fire of God’s love and lifted out of the residue of its imperfections. 


*The only reason the Catholic Church invented this unbiblical idea of purgatory is to make money off the faithful who think that they can save their unrepentant deceased relatives by paying for Masses.*


Does the Church amass wealth off of the doctrine of purgatory? The average Mass stipend (which is optional) is around five dollars. Say a parish had two daily Masses offered for the dead, it would amount to 70 dollars a week. Considering that the five-dollar stipend typically goes to pay for the church’s electricity, maintenance, furnishings, salaries, Mass wine and bread, etc., it is apparent how silly this objection about "wealth" is.

Can Masses said after a person’s death save his soul? No. Purgatory is only for those who have repented and have died in God’s grace but still have some attachment to sin. While the Church cannot judge souls, we can be certain that if a person dies in a state of mortal sin without asking God’s forgiveness, purgatory does not await him as if it were a second chance.


*Weren’t prayers for the dead an invention of the medieval Church?* 


Prayers for the dead are not only older than the Middle Ages, they pre-date Christianity. In the Old Testament, Judah Maccabee and his companions pray for the souls of departed soldiers: "It was a holy and pious thought. Therefore, he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin" (2 Macc. 12:45). While Protestants do not accept this as an inspired book, it is worthwhile to point out that even today Jews have a prayer called the kaddish that is offered for the purification of the deceased. 

This practice of praying for the dead is also recorded throughout ancient Christian documents, such as the Acts of Paul and Thecla, and in the writings of Abercius, Perpetua, Tertullian, Cyril of Jerusalem, Epiphanius of Salamis, John Chrysostom, and Augustine. Since all of these men wrote between A.D. 160 and 421, prayers for the souls in purgatory can hardly be considered a medieval invention. On the contrary, refusing to pray for the dead is a novel idea in light of historic Judaism and Christianity.


*The idea of souls needing prayers in purgatory seems so contrary to the gospel that no Bible-believing Christian could believe it. *


Actually, since roughly 50 percent of all Christians are Catholics and 25 are Orthodox, about three-quarters of all Christians believe it. Certain Protestants, such as C.S. Lewis, have also held to the truth of the doctrine. In his Letters to Malcom, he said, "Of course I pray for the dead. The action is so spontaneous, so all but inevitable, that only the most compulsive theological case against it would deter me. And I hardly know how the rest of my prayers would survive if those for the dead were forbidden. At our age, the majority of those we love best are dead. What sort of intercourse with God could I have if what I love best were unmentionable to him?

"I believe in Purgatory. . . . Our souls demand Purgatory, don’t they? Would it not break the heart if God said to us, ‘It is true, my son, that your breath smells and your rags drip with mud and slime, but we are charitable here and no one will upbraid you with these things, nor draw away from you. Enter into the joy’? Should we not reply, ‘With submission, sir, and if there is no objection, I’d rather be cleansed first.’ ‘It may hurt, you know’—"Even so, sir.’"


*But purgatory implies that Christ’s sacrifice was not sufficient, that he didn’t finish the work of redemption on Calvary. Why do Catholics feel the need to add to it by doing more work in purgatory? *


This objection is based on a pair of erroneous presumptions: That progressive sanctification and suffering take away from Christ’s work on Calvary and that the Church teaches that purgatory is work. 

To address the second objection first, purgatory is not a place for those bad Catholics who didn’t finish working their way to heaven while on earth. "For by grace you have been saved by faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8–9). The purification that takes place in purgatory is purely a work of God’s grace, since there is no chance for merit after death, and the judgment of each individual is based solely upon their earthly life. But regardless of where Christ purifies men, it is precisely because his sacrifice was sufficient that each believer can be perfected. 

Though Christ paid the infinite debt of man’s sins 2,000 years ago, the sanctification process in the life of each Christian continues. In 1 Thessalonians 5:23, Paul tells the faithful, "May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." According to Scripture, sanctification is a thing of the past (1 Cor. 6:11), present (1 Thess. 4:3), and future (1 Thess. 5:23) in the Christian life. 

This process often involves suffering, as Paul indicates: "Let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus as the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross. . . . ‘My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord, nor lose courage when you are punished by him. For the Lord disciplines whom he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives. [God] disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it" (Heb. 12:1–12).

Therefore, the presence of suffering does not detract from Christ’s sacrifice. In fact, there is only one mention in all of Scripture of something "lacking in Christ’s afflictions," and that missing link is the suffering of his mystical body, the Church (Col. 1:24).


*I can accept that suffering happens to each believer, but Christ paid all punishments for sin. If purgatory is a punishment, then it means Christ left some part of the debt unpaid. *


Some Christians maintain that all temporal punishments for sin are taken away if the person has repented. But the Bible indicates that although God takes away the eternal punishment, some temporal punishments may remain. 

In the Old Testament, God forgave David, but still took the life of his son (2 Sam. 12:13–14). In the New Testament, Christ reiterates this principle, "Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny" (Matt. 5:25–26). It can also be mentioned that Christian women still experience the temporal punishment of birthpangs (Gen. 3:16), although Christ paid the infinite debt of man’s original sin (Rom. 5:12–21). 

The sufficiency of Christ’s sacrifice is not lessened by the fact that God’s work of perfecting his children is a process that often involves suffering and even temporal punishment. While "for the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant" (Heb 12:11), it is all a part of God’s promise made through Paul, "that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Phil 1:6), even if it should be "as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:15).

Taken from the Catholic Answers website at:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0010sbs.asp


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## Ulysses (Jan 28, 2008)

Woodswalker said:


> in order to gain a bit of perspective, and increase understanding, can anyone share their knowledge in relation to the souls who leave this earth in terms of what percent goes to hades, what percent builds some time in purgatory, and what percent actually ascends to Heaven on the first attempt?
> 
> just attemping to put numbers on the qualitative discussion.



No one but God would know that for sure, Woodswalker.


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## Ulysses (Jan 28, 2008)

Well what I can say for sure is this: any one soul who goes to hades is one too many. And every soul that enters Heaven--via Purgatory or without it--is an occasion to rejoice.


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## PWalls (Jan 28, 2008)

Ulysses said:


> Well what I can say for sure is this: any one soul who goes to hades is one too many. And every soul that enters Heaven--via Purgatory or without it--is an occasion to rejoice.



That is a great answer. True too.


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## Pale Blue Dun (Jan 28, 2008)

Woodswalker said:


> you and i appear to think much alike, are you sure you're not baptist?
> 
> of course, the reverse might also be true?
> 
> yep. one never knows for sure.




Woodswalker,

Thanks to you and The "U" for being voices of reason when I am attempting to start trouble. 

I think you are a closet Catholic.


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## Ulysses (Jan 28, 2008)

Woodswalker said:


> you and i appear to think much alike, are you sure you're not baptist?
> 
> of course, the reverse might also be true?
> 
> yep. one never knows for sure.



I was Baptist for many years...maybe it's not all "purged" out of me yet.


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## Spotlite (Jan 28, 2008)

I thought alot about this thread on how to repond. I just dont believe in Purgatory as some do. I mean think about it, if sin was defeated at the cross how can you carry the sin with you to be purged? The only way is to believe like one group that I have dealt with, they use OSAS as the crutch that allows you to live as you please. I do understand that most on this board that believe OSAS do not think that way and this is not directed at them at all. 


The only way I see Purgatory can be there to carry your sins to for purging is to believe in a way that you can live as you please and still go. Cause any other way, you would accept the power of the blood to cover those sins and be washed away forever and forgotten.

If Purgatory is real, then why does the ones that will be caught up in the Rapture not have to go to Purgatory? They will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, so why cant the dead be changed when they pass?

After my Daddy passed in 06, I struggled with it, still do. My Daddy was a Christian man, always was and thats all I ever known him to be. He had a heart attack one afternoon, we were all out camping. As we headed off for our camper on the other end of the campground, I told him bye and see ya later, my kids hugged him and told him bye, little did I know that in less than 1 hour I would get the dreaded phone call. By the time I got to him, he was gone. I was the oldest of 3 so I felt it was my place to stay strong for my brother and sister and my Mother and all the kids. I did that, hard as it was I did it. I lay awake at night thinking of him, spent countless hours in is barn, sitting in his truck. Finally one day at the cemetary just a few weeks after is death, it was just me, I finally reached my breaking point and let go. On the way home God gave me a scripture that has stuck with me and I have it marked in my Bible. 

Ecclesiastes 12 vs 6 and 7;

"Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, ( I took that as referring to a heart attack )or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel be broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"

I just dont see any support for Purgatory.


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## gamefish (Jan 28, 2008)

Not to change the subject but could some one enlighten me on the sin that cannot be forgiven.  How do you sin against your own holy spirt?

Mark 3
28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."


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## farmasis (Jan 28, 2008)

gamefish said:


> Not to change the subject but could some one enlighten me on the sin that cannot be forgiven.  How do you sin against your own holy spirt?
> 
> Mark 3
> 28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."



There are a few camps on this.

The Holy Spirit's job is to convict us of sin and lead us to repentance. Some say if you constantly reject the Holy Spirit than you are committing blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, therefore rejecting salvation.

Some others believe that the apostles Matthew and Mark were talking about the pharisees that claimed that Jesus's power came from evil. Mark 3:30 from the verses you gave above clearly show that in my opinion.

Here are good readings.

http://www.gotquestions.org/blasphemy-Holy-Spirit.html
http://www.carm.org/questions/blasphemy.htm


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## PJason (Jan 28, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> I thought alot about this thread on how to repond. I just dont believe in Purgatory as some do. I mean think about it, if sin was defeated at the cross how can you carry the sin with you to be purged? The only way is to believe like one group that I have dealt with, they use OSAS as the crutch that allows you to live as you please. I do understand that most on this board that believe OSAS do not think that way and this is not directed at them at all.



You carry the temporal punishment for that sin. I look at it this way. If my daughter throws a ball and breaks a window, and comes to me and says “Dad, I’m sorry I broke that window”

I say “Thanks for telling me I forgive you”

And then she just walks off.

The window is still broken. My forgiving her didn’t fix that window.  Now as a parent should I fix the window for her or have her pay to fix it?




Spotlite said:


> The only way I see Purgatory can be there to carry your sins to for purging is to believe in a way that you can live as you please and still go. Cause any other way, you would accept the power of the blood to cover those sins and be washed away forever and forgotten.



Some sins can not be purged; some sins are mortal and will send you to ************, in those cases there is no purgatory.



Spotlite said:


> If Purgatory is real, then why does the ones that will be caught up in the Rapture not have to go to Purgatory? They will be changed in the twinkling of an eye, so why cant the dead be changed when they pass?



Purgatory like Heaven and ************ has no time, or at least none that you or I could recognize. Remember from the day of Christ birth to today may have only been two days for God. The Rapture if there is one will come on the last day when Christ returns, the day of final judgment.




Spotlite said:


> After my Daddy passed in 06, I struggled with it, still do. My Daddy was a Christian man, always was and thats all I ever known him to be. He had a heart attack one afternoon, we were all out camping. As we headed off for our camper on the other end of the campground, I told him bye and see ya later, my kids hugged him and told him bye, little did I know that in less than 1 hour I would get the dreaded phone call. By the time I got to him, he was gone. I was the oldest of 3 so I felt it was my place to stay strong for my brother and sister and my Mother and all the kids. I did that, hard as it was I did it. I lay awake at night thinking of him, spent countless hours in is barn, sitting in his truck. Finally one day at the cemetary just a few weeks after is death, it was just me, I finally reached my breaking point and let go. On the way home God gave me a scripture that has stuck with me and I have it marked in my Bible.



I was with my Dad when he died, some days I wish I had not been there, most days I am glad I was. 



Spotlite said:


> Ecclesiastes 12 vs 6 and 7;
> 
> "Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, ( I took that as referring to a heart attack )or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel be broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it"
> 
> I just dont see any support for Purgatory.



I can not see any support for ************ in this passage either , does that mean ************ does not exist?


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## farmasis (Jan 29, 2008)

PJason said:


> You carry the temporal punishment for that sin. I look at it this way. If my daughter throws a ball and breaks a window, and comes to me and says “Dad, I’m sorry I broke that window”
> 
> I say “Thanks for telling me I forgive you”
> 
> ...



Man, I don't wanna start another OSAS argument, but how do you justify the enormous amount of scripture in the Bible that Christ sufferings and grace that has covered all that we have done to seperate us from God with that line of thinking?

Seriously, was the sacrifice of Jesus any different than the previous sacrifice of animals?


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## PJason (Jan 29, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Man, I don't wanna start another OSAS argument, but how do you justify the enormous amount of scripture in the Bible that Christ sufferings and grace that has covered all that we have done to seperate us from God with that line of thinking?
> 
> Seriously, was the sacrifice of Jesus any different than the previous sacrifice of animals?



I justify it by looking at wealth of historical interpretation of those scriptures and others, which tell me OSAS was not taught, until the 16th century.

Yes Christ sacrifice was different it was the last sacrifice needed.


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## SBG (Jan 29, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> I thought alot about this thread on how to repond. I just dont believe in Purgatory as some do. I mean think about it, if sin was defeated at the cross how can you carry the sin with you to be purged? The only way is to believe like one group that I have dealt with, they use OSAS as the crutch that allows you to live as you please. I do understand that most on this board that believe OSAS do not think that way and this is not directed at them at all.
> 
> 
> The only way I see Purgatory can be there to carry your sins to for purging is to believe in a way that you can live as you please and still go. Cause any other way, you would accept the power of the blood to cover those sins and be washed away forever and forgotten.
> ...




Awesome post!


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## farmasis (Jan 29, 2008)

PJason said:


> I justify it by looking at wealth of historical interpretation of those scriptures and others, which tell me OSAS was not taught, until the 16th century.



Of course, I disagree. Christ himself taught it. But, let's not go there.



> Yes Christ sacrifice was different it was the last sacrifice needed.



So, why the need for purgatory? That was my point. If Christ death was sufficient to cover sin, then why does God need me to help him? Was the lamb that was slain worthy or not? If not, then why could God have just continued the remission of sin with animal sacrifice and spare his son? Future sins need not be covered.

I am not attacking you, I am just trying to figure out the logic.


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## Pale Blue Dun (Jan 29, 2008)

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0203sbs.asp




1. The Bible says in Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. So, when I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior, I was saved. It’s a done deal.


When a Catholic hears the above assertion, his fist inclination is to immediately launch a litany of verses that emphasize that salvation can be lost. Usually this causes the other person to present just as many verses that speak of salvation as a completed event. Both parties feel as if they have offered plenty of evidence, but no progress has been made. 

There’s a better way to go at it. Concede that the Bible does speak of salvation as a past-tense event. Offer some verses of your own, such as Ephesians 2:8–9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith." From there, add that Scripture also speaks of salvation as a present-tense event. In Philippians 2:12, Paul exhorted us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

Just as we cannot deny that salvation is a past- and present-tense event, the Evangelical Protestant cannot deny that Scripture also speaks of it as a future-tense event. For evidence of this, verses such as Romans 13:11 might be offered: "our salvation is nearer than when we first believed" (Rom. 13:11; cf. 1 Cor. 3:15; 5:5).

When you emphasize that salvation can be lost, the Protestant often hears, "You have not yet been saved." He knows that the Bible speaks of salvation as a past-tense event, and so no matter how many verses you offer, you will not be able to prove this to be false. The way to move beyond this impasse is to offer the big picture of salvation: past, present, and future. The Evangelical will then not feel as if you are trying to prove that he has not been saved, but will perhaps be more open to look at salvation in a broader—and more biblical—context. Once you have reached this point, it’s time to offer the evidence that the free gift of salvation can be just as freely forfeited.


2. How could I lose my salvation if Jesus said that no one could snatch me out of God’s hand (John 10:28)?


One mistake that often leads to verse slinging is failing to address a verse that is presented. When we hear a Protestant offer his verse, we think of another verse that seems to argue for our position and we toss it back to him. Then we become frustrated that he never looked seriously as the verse and threw a different one back at us. The remedy for this type of scriptural ping-pong is to take the time to look at each verse that is brought up.

In the case of John 10:28, Jesus says that no one will be able to take us away from God. The language is similar to Paul’s in Romans 8:39 when he says that nothing in creation will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. Both of these passages address the same fact that no one is capable of removing you from the grace of God. No one is capable of nullifying your salvation. It would be like saying that no one is capable of pulling you out of a car driving at eighty miles per hour. This does not mean that you are incapable of opening the door and jumping out. In the same way, John 10:28 does not mean that we are incapable of severing our relationship with God. Read on in John, and you’ll see why.

Five chapters later in John’s Gospel, Christ tells the apostles at the Last Supper to remain in his love. He adds that if we keep his commandments we will remain in his love. But he who does not remain in his love is "cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned" (John 15:6). Now, if salvation were a done deal, why would Jesus feel the need to tell anyone to remain in his love? It would be like locking a person in a closet and telling them to remain there. If they are unable to leave, it is senseless to ask them to remain.

Jesus told his disciples to remain in his love because just as we enter freely into a relationship with Christ, we are free to leave him. Scripture is overflowing with examples of this. In Romans 11:22, Paul says, "Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off." In Galatians 5:4, Paul says, "You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace." This verse implies that they were united with Christ and in grace before they fell. In 1 Corinthians 9:27, Paul again warns the Christians against being overconfident: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." This is not the language of "once saved always saved."


3. If you can lose your salvation by sin, doesn’t that imply that you are earning your salvation? Ephesians 2:8–9, says, "for by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God—not because of works, lest any man should boast."


Perhaps the best place to begin when dealing with this verse is to turn to the Council of Trent. In chapter eight of the Decree on Justification, the Church said that "none of those things which precede justification—whether faith or works—merit the grace itself of justification." This means that no man can work himself into a state of justification. The New Covenant is not a system of works righteousness whereby a person can please God and earn heaven by doing a number of good deeds. This is what Paul is driving at in Ephesians 2. He is not saying that sin cannot separate us from Christ.

When he gave a litany of created things that can not separate us from the love of God in Romans 8:39, notice that he did not say, "neither fornication nor adultery nor drunkenness nor murder will separate us from the love of God." He was well aware that if we choose sin, we renounce Christ. In 1 Corinthians 15:1–2, Paul says, "Now I would remind you, brethren, in what terms I preached to you the gospel, which you received, in which you stand, by which you are saved, if you hold it fast—unless you believed in vain." So, you could believe, but fail to hold fast to the gospel, and not be saved (cf. 2 Pet. 2:20).

This is why Paul spoke in the book of Romans about the "obedience of faith" (Rom. 1:5, 16:26). It is not enough that one call Jesus Lord, for, as he said, "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matt. 7:21; cf. Matt. 10:33, 18:35). If we are disobedient, God will "take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city" (Rev 22:19).

Just because you may choose to no longer hold fast to what was freely given to you does not mean that you were ever capable of earning what was given to you in the first place. The same is true of earthly sonship—it cannot be earned. But if you were adopted, you would be free to run away as a prodigal son and lose your inheritance.


4. What’s the history behind the teaching that you could lose your salvation?


The first person to espouse the idea of "once saved, always saved" was John Calvin in the mid-sixteenth century. Even Martin Luther didn’t subscribe to the theory. Prior to Calvin, the unanimous consent of the early Christians was that a person is capable of losing his salvation by committing mortal sin, as John spoke about in 1 John 5:16–17.

In the first century, the Didache, commonly known as the Teaching of the Twelve Apostles, said "Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ready, for you know not the hour in which our Lord comes. But you shall assemble together often, seeking the things which are befitting to your souls: for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if you be not made complete in the last time" (Didache 16 [A.D. 70]). 

In the second century, Irenaeus wrote, "To Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess’ [Phil. 2:10–11] to him, and that he should execute just judgment towards all. . . . The ungodly and unrighteous and wicked and profane among men [shall go] into everlasting fire; but [he] may, in the exercise of his grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept his commandments, and have persevered in his love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their penance, and may surround them with everlasting glory" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

Such consistent testimony could be given from the dawn of Christianity until today, and no suggestion of "once saved, always saved" can be found on the lips of any Christian before Calvin.


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## Ulysses (Jan 29, 2008)

Good post, PBD. Part 2 is one of the better explanations of the idea I've ever seen.


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## Pale Blue Dun (Jan 29, 2008)

I like the entire article.


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## dawg2 (Jan 29, 2008)

Good article PBD


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## farmasis (Jan 29, 2008)

Please, I am not trying to reincarnate the OSAS argument.

Simply, what was the difference between Jesus's sacrifice and the animals before him. Why did Jesus have to die if we could continue to sin and offer burnt offerings to cover past sins, then purgatory to cover present sins.

I am willing to admit that I know little of purgatory and could be making a dumb connection. Forgive me.

Did purgatory not exist until after Jesus's death?


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## Ulysses (Jan 29, 2008)

farmasis said:


> Please, I am not trying to reincarnate the OSAS argument.
> 
> Simply, what was the difference between Jesus's sacrifice and the animals before him. Why did Jesus have to die if we could continue to sin and offer burnt offerings to cover past sins, then purgatory to cover present sins.
> 
> ...



Again, Jesus's sacrifice pays for the eternal consequences of sin, while Purgatory is where the temporal consequences are paid for that were not paid on earth. I don't believe the scriptures ever say that there will not be earthly consequences of sin for those who are in Christ, does it?

As to whether Purgatory existed before Christ...I have no idea.


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## Ulysses (Jan 29, 2008)

FishFanatic said:


> In response to the original thread.....I would say "great".  What do you want me to do now?  Do I need to change anything?



I don't think anyone ever answered you...the answer is: you probably don't need to change anything. For all of us who follow Christ, our goal is to live a Godly life on earth, and we hope to join Him one day in Heaven. Whether or not you believe in Purgatory does not change any of that.


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## PWalls (Jan 29, 2008)

I think prior to Jesus' death/resurrection there was a place called Abraham's bosom. This place was populated by the Old Testament saints and what Jesus referred to as Paradise on the cross when talking to the thief. I think Jesus went there and to Heaven when He died. He went to Abraham's bosom to get the souls that were there waiting on Him. This was not a place to work off sins and such like the RCC calls Purgatory. This was paradise and just a holding pen (for lack of a better word) for the Old Testament saints waiting on Jesus to come. I think now there is no Abraham's bosom. Christians go straight to Heaven when their mortal body dies.


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## farmasis (Jan 29, 2008)

Ulysses said:


> Again, Jesus's sacrifice pays for the eternal consequences of sin, while Purgatory is where the temporal consequences are paid for that were not paid on earth.



I guess my equivalent to purgatory is that Christians appear before the Judgement seat and give an account of unforgiven sins. I think this happens prior to entering heaven, but I don't believe in mortal sins that can prevent a Christian entrance.



> I don't believe the scriptures ever say that there will not be earthly consequences of sin for those who are in Christ, does it?



Probably not, but does it say that there will be?


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## farmasis (Jan 29, 2008)

PWalls said:


> I think prior to Jesus' death/resurrection there was a place called Abraham's bosom. This place was populated by the Old Testament saints and what Jesus referred to as Paradise on the cross when talking to the thief. I think Jesus went there and to Heaven when He died. He went to Abraham's bosom to get the souls that were there waiting on Him. This was not a place to work off sins and such like the RCC calls Purgatory. This was paradise and just a holding pen (for lack of a better word) for the Old Testament saints waiting on Jesus to come. I think now there is no Abraham's bosom. Christians go straight to Heaven when their mortal body dies.




I believe that also.


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## Sugar Hill Scouter (Jan 29, 2008)

I disagree. Read II Corinthians 5:8.
It says, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."


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## PWalls (Jan 29, 2008)

Biggest problem with Purgatory is the classification of sin issue. To believe in Purgatory you have to believe that some sins are worse than others. That is not taught at all in Scripture.


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## farmasis (Jan 29, 2008)

Ulysses said:


> I don't think anyone ever answered you...the answer is: you probably don't need to change anything. For all of us who follow Christ, our goal is to live a Godly life on earth, and we hope to join Him one day in Heaven. Whether or not you believe in Purgatory does not change any of that.



I agree, same as with the OSAS argument.

We tend to focus on the 5% that we have differences with and not the 95% we have in common.

I think we should continue on the plan of salvation that we have been given. If you read, study and pray and are convinced that you are heading in the direction the Holy Spirit is directing you, then you are heading in the right direction.


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## Ulysses (Jan 29, 2008)

Sugar Hill Scouter said:


> I disagree. Read II Corinthians 5:8.
> It says, "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."



The Holy Souls in Purgatory are very much "present with the Lord" in that they are aware of God's presence, and are alive in hope that they will be with Him in Heaven soon.

Those who go to h3ll are not "present with the Lord" in that they are separated from Him as "by a great gulf", and are unaware of God's presence.


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## Ulysses (Jan 29, 2008)

farmasis said:


> I agree, same as with the OSAS argument.
> 
> We tend to focus on the 5% that we have differences with and not the 95% we have in common.
> 
> I think we should continue on the plan of salvation that we have been given. If you read, study and pray and are convinced that you are heading in the direction the Holy Spirit is directing you, then you are heading in the right direction.



True, obviously it makes very little difference either way, as we should all be striving to live Godly lives the best we can on earth.

The only reason anyone should really care about Purgatory is we Catholics believe that praying for our departed loved ones still has merit...if you don't believe in that, whether or not you believe in Purgatory will have very little or no effect on your Christian life at all.


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## Spotlite (Jan 29, 2008)

PWalls said:


> I think prior to Jesus' death/resurrection there was a place called Abraham's bosom. This place was populated by the Old Testament saints and what Jesus referred to as Paradise on the cross when talking to the thief. I think Jesus went there and to Heaven when He died. He went to Abraham's bosom to get the souls that were there waiting on Him. This was not a place to work off sins and such like the RCC calls Purgatory. This was paradise and just a holding pen (for lack of a better word) for the Old Testament saints waiting on Jesus to come. I think now there is no Abraham's bosom. Christians go straight to Heaven when their mortal body dies.



I agree with you on this. I wonder if Matthew 27 vs 52 and 53 might back this up a little also? 

When Jesus resurrected, the dead saints did also............


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## Spotlite (Jan 29, 2008)

Ulysses said:


> The only reason anyone should really care about Purgatory is we Catholics believe that praying for our departed loved ones still has merit....


The only problem I see with that, is regardless if you believe in repentance or confession, the individual that committed the sin is the one that has to repent or confess. I cant confess your sins or repent for them and vise versa. Nothing wrong with praying for your departed loved ones. But will it change their standings with Christ? Their life they lived is what they will give an account for.


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## Ulysses (Jan 29, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> The only problem I see with that, is regardless if you believe in repentance or confession, the individual that committed the sin is the one that has to repent or confess. I cant confess your sins or repent for them and vise versa. Nothing wrong with praying for your departed loved ones. But will it change their standings with Christ? Their life they lived is what they will give an account for.



Once again, Purgatory is not for "paying the price of sin." Christ's sacrifice paid the price for sin and made it possible for us to be (legally) right with God.

Purgatory is where the last temporal effects of sins *that are already forgiven* are purged away, and the believer is made perfect, released from all earthly attachments, before joining God in Heaven.

One does not pray for the dead so that they will come to repentance...it would be too late for that.


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## Ulysses (Jan 29, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> ...regardless if you believe in repentance or confession...



Are there any Christians who don't believe in repentance and confession??


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## Spotlite (Jan 29, 2008)

Ulysses said:


> Once again, Purgatory is not for "paying the price of sin." Christ's sacrifice paid the price for sin and made it possible for us to be (legally) right with God.
> 
> Purgatory is where the last temporal effects of sins *that are already forgiven* are purged away, and the believer is made perfect, released from all earthly attachments, before joining God in Heaven.
> 
> One does not pray for the dead so that they will come to repentance...it would be too late for that.



I think I see what you are saying. Its a place for that transaction to take place that those caught up in the rapture will have in that moment in the twinkling of an eye. Why not just change them when they pass like those will be changed in the Rapture?


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## Spotlite (Jan 29, 2008)

Ulysses said:


> Are there any Christians who don't believe in repentance and confession??



Some folks believe in confession only, some believe in repentance only. I just didnt want to cross any paths for another topic.


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## Ulysses (Jan 29, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> I think I see what you are saying. Its a place for that transaction to take place that those caught up in the rapture will have in that moment in the twinkling of an eye. Why not just change them when they pass like those will be changed in the Rapture?



Whether it's a 'place,' or a 'state of being,' or whatever kind of spiritual process, who really knows?

This is just my opinion, but it also may very well be that from God's point of view it is an "instantaneous" thing, I honestly don't really know.


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## Ulysses (Jan 29, 2008)

Actually, is it our spirits that change at the "rapture," or our bodies, or both? Maybe that has something to do with it?


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## PWalls (Jan 29, 2008)

Ulysses said:


> Actually, is it our spirits that change at the "rapture," or our bodies, or both? Maybe that has something to do with it?



Anyone left alive at the rapture will be meet Jesus in the sky where they will be given their perfect body. Anyone already dead will have their spirit come down from Heaven and their body come up from the grave where they will combine into a perfect body.


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## Sugar Hill Scouter (Jan 29, 2008)

Ulysses said:


> The Holy Souls in Purgatory are very much "present with the Lord" in that they are aware of God's presence, and are alive in hope that they will be with Him in Heaven soon.
> 
> Those who go to h3ll are not "present with the Lord" in that they are separated from Him as "by a great gulf", and are unaware of God's presence.



Nothing I've found in God's Word supports the theory of purgatory. Once you've died, it's too late for others to "pray for your soul." To suggest otherwise does not support the Scriptures.


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## packrat (Jan 29, 2008)

Ulysses said:


> Are there any Christians who don't believe in repentance and confession??



Even after I acccepted Christ as my Personal Savior, I still sin, therefore;

I must be able to repent of every sin "That's conviction"
To tell my Savior "directly" that I have failed Him "That's my confession"
To believe that I'm forgiven "Thats my only hope"
JESUS SAVING & FORGIVING SINNERS FOR OVER 2000 YEARS


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## Pale Blue Dun (Jan 29, 2008)

Sugar Hill Scouter said:


> Nothing I've found in God's Word supports the theory of purgatory. Once you've died, it's too late for others to "pray for your soul." To suggest otherwise does not support the Scriptures.





I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory. 

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in ************. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory. 

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or ************, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in ************ we will no longer live with the Master. 

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in ************ because compassion is a grace from God and those in ************ are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory. 

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in ************ because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin. 

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory. 

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in ************. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory. 

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory. 

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in ************ can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory. 

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision. 

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in ************. These are the souls experiencing purgatory. 

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed. 

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven). 

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God. 

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in ************. These dead are in purgatory. 

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory. 

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in ************ can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible. 

Top 





II. Purification After Death By Fire
Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and ****ation in ************).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or ************ (there is no forgiveness and salvation). 

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean ************ (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved). 

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, "but only" (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or “yet so”) in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire. 

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory). 

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death. 

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith. 

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in ************. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory. 

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death). 

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined. 

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory. 

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation. 

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to ************, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory. 

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.


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## Pale Blue Dun (Jan 29, 2008)

Tradition / Church Fathers 

I. The Early Church’s Belief in Purgatory
"And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again receives her. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: Mother, thou shaft have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the just." Acts of Paul and Thecla (A.D. 160).

"Abercius by name, I am a disciple of the chaste shepherd...He taught me…faithful writings...These words, I, Abercius, standing by, ordered to be inscribed. In truth, I was in the course of my seventy-second year. Let him who understands and believes this pray fro Abercius." Inscription of Abercius (A.D. 190). 

"Without delay, on that very night, this was shown to me in a vision. I saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid colour, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age? Who died miserably with disease...But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then was the birth-day of Gets Caesar, and I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me. I saw that that place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. And where there had been a wound, I saw a scar; and that pool which I had before seen, I saw now with its margin lowered even to the boy's navel. And one drew water from the pool incessantly, and upon its brink was a goblet filled with water; and Dinocrates drew near and began to drink from it, and the goblet did not fail. And when he was satisfied, he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment." The Passion of Perpetua and Felicitias, 2:3-4 (A.D. 202). 

"Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more--not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God's righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness." Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202). 

"[T]hat allegory of the Lord which is extremely clear and simple in its meaning, and ought to be from the first understood in its plain and natural sense...Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term 'adversary' to the devil, you are advised by the (Lord's) injunction, while you are in the way with him, 'to make even with him such a compact as may be deemed compatible with the requirements of your true faith. Now the compact you have made respecting him is to renounce him, and his pomp, and his angels. Such is your agreement in this matter. Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as 'the accuser of the brethren,' or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of ************, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?" Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 35 (A.D. 210). 

"All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hades: do you admit this? It is true, whether you say yes or no: moreover, there are already experienced there punishments and consolations; and there you have a poor man and a rich...Moreover, the soul executes not all its operations with the ministration of the flesh; for the judgment of God pursues even simple cogitations and the merest volitions. 'Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.' Therefore, even for this cause it is most fitting that the soul, without at all waiting for the flesh, should be punished for what it has done without the partnership of the flesh. So, on the same principle, in return for the pious and kindly thoughts in which it shared not the help of the flesh, shall it without the flesh receive its consolation. In short, inasmuch as we understand 'the prison' pointed out in the Gospel to be Hades, and as we also interpret 'the uttermost farthing' to mean the very smallest offence which has to be recompensed there before the resurrection, no one will hesitate to believe that the soul undergoes in Hades some compensatory discipline, without prejudice to the full process of the resurrection, when the recompense will be administered through the flesh besides." Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 58 (A.D. 210). 

"As often as the anniversary comes round, we make offerings for the dead as birthday honours." Tertullian, The Chaplut, 3 (A.D. 211). 

"[A] woman is more bound when her husband is dead...Indeed, she prays for his soul, and requests refreshment for him meanwhile, and fellowship (with him) in the first resurrection; and she offers (her sacrifice) on the anniversary of his falling asleep." Tertullian, On Monogamy, 10 (A.D. 216). 

"For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Cor.,3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works." Origen, Homilies on Jeremias, PG 13:445, 448 ( A.D. 244). 

"For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigour of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory: it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord." Cyprian, To Antonianus, Epistle 51 (55):20 (A.D. 253). 

"Let us pray for our brethren that are at rest in Christ, that God, the lover of mankind, who has received his soul, may forgive him every sin, voluntary and involuntary, and may be merciful and gracious to him, and give him his lot in the land of the pious that are sent into the bosom of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, with all those that have pleased Him and done His will from the beginning of the world, whence all sorrow, grief, and lamentation are banished." Apostolic Constitutions, 8:4,41 (3rd Century). 

"The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment: which the poets transferred to the vulture of Tityus. Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire. Then they whose sins shall exceed either in weight or in number, shall be scorched by the fire and burnt: but they whom full justice and maturity of virtue has imbued will not perceive that fire; for they have something of God in themselves which repels and rejects the violence of the flame." Lactantius, The Divine Institutes, 7:21 (A.D. 307). 

"Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth. And I wish to persuade you by an illustration. For I know that many say, what is a soul profited, which departs from this world either with sins, or without sins, if it be commemorated in the prayer? For if a king were to banish certain who had given him of-fence, and then those who belong to them should weave a crown and offer it to him on behalf of those under punishment, would he not grant a remission of their penalties? In the same way we, when we offer to Him our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners, weave no crown, but offer up Christ sacrificed for our sins, propitiating our merciful God for them as well as for ourselves.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9,10 (c. A.D. 350). 

"I think that the noble athletes of God, who have wrestled all their lives with the invisible enemies, after they have escaped all of their persecutions and have come to the end of life, are examined by the prince of this world; and if they are found to have any wounds from their wrestling, any stains or effects of sin, they are detained. If, however they are found unwounded and without stain, they are, as unconquered, brought by Christ into their rest." Basil, Homilies on the Psalms, 7:2 (ante A.D. 370). 

"Lay me not with sweet spices: for this honour avails me not; Nor yet incense and perfumes: for the honour benefits me not. Burn sweet spices in the Holy Place: and me, even me, conduct to the grave with prayer. Give ye incense to God: and over me send up hymns. Instead of perfumes of spices: in prayer make remembrance of me." Ephraem, His Testament (ante A.D. 373). 

"Useful too is the prayer fashioned on their [the dead’s] behalf...it is useful, because in this world we often stumble either voluntarily or involuntarily." Epiphanius, Panarion, 75:8 (A.D. 375). 

"When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil." Gregory of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead, PG 13:445,448 (ante A.D. 394). 

"Give, Oh Lord, rest to Thy servant Theodosius, that rest Thou hast prepared for Thy saints....I love him, therefore will I follow him to the land of the living; I will not leave him till by my prayers and lamentations he shall be admitted unto the holy mount of the Lord,to which his deserts call him." Ambrose, De obitu Theodosii, PL 16:1397 (A.D. 395). 

"Other husbands scatter on the graves of their wives violets, roses, lilies, and purple flowers; and assuage the grief of their hearts by fulfilling this tender duty. Our dear Pammachius also waters the holy ashes and the revered bones of Paulina, but it is with the balm of almsgiving." Jerome, To Pammachius, Epistle 66:5 (A.D. 397). 

"Weep for the unbelievers; weep for those who differ in nowise from them, those who depart hence without the illumination, without the seal! They indeed deserve our wailing, they deserve our groans; they are outside the Palace, with the culprits, with the condemned: for, "Verily I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven." Mourn for those who have died in wealth, and did not from their wealth think of any solace for their soul, who had power to wash away their sins and would not. Let us all weep for these in private and in public, but with propriety, with gravity, not so as to make exhibitions of ourselves; let us weep for these, not one day, or two, but all our life. Such tears spring not from senseless passion, but from true affection. The other sort are of senseless passion. For this cause they are quickly quenched, whereas if they spring from the fear of God, they always abide with us. Let us weep for these; let us assist them according to our power; let us think of some assistance for them, small though it be, yet still let us assist them. How and in what way? By praying and entreating others to make prayers for them, by continually giving to the poor on their behalf." John Chrysostom, Homilies on Phillipians, 3 (ante A.D. 404). 

"If the baptized person fulfills the obligations demanded of a Christian, he does well. If he does not--provided he keeps the faith, without which he would perish forever--no matter in what sin or impurity remains, he will be saved, as it were, by fire; as one who has built on the foundation, which is Christ, not gold, silver, and precious stones, but wood, hay straw, that is, not just and chasted works but wicked and unchaste works." Augustine, Faith and Works, 1:1 (A.D. 413).


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## Pale Blue Dun (Jan 29, 2008)

"Now on what ground does this person pray that he may not be 'rebuked in indignation, nor chastened in hot displeasure"? He speaks as if he would say unto God, 'Since the things which I already suffer are many in number, I pray Thee let them suffice;' and he begins to enumerate them, by way of satisfying God; offering what he suffers now, that he may not have to suffer worse evils hereafter." Augustine, Exposition of the Psalms, 38(37):3 (A.D. 418). 

"And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life. It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it. This cannot, however, be the case of any of those of whom it is said, that they 'shall not inherit the kingdom of God,' unless after suitable repentance their sins be forgiven them. When I say 'suitable,' I mean that they are not to be unfruitful in almsgiving; for Holy Scripture lays so much stress on this virtue, that our Lord tells us beforehand, that He will ascribe no merit to those on His right hand but that they abound in it, and no defect to those on His left hand but their want of it, when He shall say to the former, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom," and to the latter, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire.'" Augustine, Enchiridion, 69 (A.D. 421). 

"During the time, moreover, which intervenes between a man's death and the final resurrection, the soul dwells in a hidden retreat, where it enjoys rest or suffers affliction just in proportion to the merit it has earned by the life which it led on earth." Augustine, Enchiridion, 1099 (A.D. 421). 

"For our part, we recognize that even in this life some punishments are purgatorial,--not, indeed, to those whose life is none the better, but rather the worse for them, but to those who are constrained by them to amend their life. All other punishments, whether temporal or eternal, inflicted as they are on every one by divine providence, are sent either on account of past sins, or of sins presently allowed in the life, or to exercise and reveal a man's graces. They may be inflicted by the instrumentality of bad men and angels as well as of the good. For even if any one suffers some hurt through another's wickedness or mistake, the man indeed sins whose ignorance or injustice does the harm; but God, who by His just though hidden judgment permits it to be done, sins not. But temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But of those who suffer temporary punishments after death, all are not doomed to those everlasting pains which are to follow that judgment; for to some, as we have already said, what is not remitted in this world is remitted in the next, that is, they are not punished with the eternal punishment of the world to come." Augustine, City of God, 21:13 (A.D. 426). 

"But since she has this certainty regarding no man, she prays for all her enemies who yet live in this world; and yet she is not heard in behalf of all. But she is heard in the case of those only who, though they oppose the Church, are yet predestinated to become her sons through her intercession...For some of the dead, indeed, the prayer of the Church or of pious individuals is heard; but it is for those who, having been regenerated in Christ, did not spend their life so wickedly that they can be judged unworthy of such compassion, nor so well that they can be considered to have no need of it. As also, after the resurrection, there will be some of the dead to whom, after they have endured the pains proper to the spirits of the dead, mercy shall be accorded, and acquittal from the punishment of the eternal fire. For were there not some whose sins, though not remitted in this life, shall be remitted in that which is to come, it could not be truly said, "They shall not be forgiven, neither in this world, neither in that which is to come.' But when the Judge of quick and dead has said, 'Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world,' and to those on the other side, 'Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels,' and 'These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life,' it were excessively presumptuous to say that the punishment of any of those whom God has said shall go away into eternal punishment shall not be eternal, and so bring either despair or doubt upon the corresponding promise of life eternal." Augustine, City of God,2 1:24 (A.D. 426). 

"If we neither give thanks to God in tribulations nor redeem our own sins by good works, we shall have to remain in that purgatorian fire as long as it takes for those above-mentioned lesser sins to be consumed like wood and straw and hay." Ceasar of Arles, Sermon 179 (104):2 (A.D. 542). 

"Each one will be presented to the Judge exactly as he was when he departed this life. Yet, there must be a cleansing fire before judgment, because of some minor faults that may remain to be purged away. Does not Christ, the Truth, say that if anyone blasphemes against the Holy Spirit he shall not be forgiven 'either in this world or in the world to come'(Mt. 12:32)? From this statement we learn that some sins can be forgiven in this world and some in the world to come. For, if forgiveness is refused for a particular sin, we conclude logically that it is granted for others. This must apply, as I said, to slight transgressions." Gregory the Great [regn. A.D. 590-604], Dialogues, 4:39 (A.D. 594).


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## 60Grit (Jan 29, 2008)

Good grief Dan, were you possessed by the spirit of Anagma when the screen name was given up???

I need a readers digest version of all of that before I go crosseyed tryin to read it.


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## farmasis (Jan 29, 2008)

60Grit said:


> Good grief Dan, were you possessed by the spirit of Anagma when the screen name was given up???
> 
> I need a readers digest version of all of that before I go crosseyed tryin to read it.



How about the cliff note version:

You can find a scripture to back up most beliefs, if you apply your interpretation to it.


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## Pale Blue Dun (Jan 29, 2008)

Dude...those ARE the Cliff Notes! 

It's great reading if you can take the time. I just printed off the web page and did the research. 

This new book I'm reading really helps. It's called "Rome Sweet Home" and it's about a Presbyterian Pastor who converts to Catholicism and how other pastors that he was using to try and convince him NOT to convert, also ended up converting because of the research they did to try to dissuade him. 

Very interesting book.

Dan


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## StriperAddict (Jan 29, 2008)

Ulysses said:


> Once again, Purgatory is not for "paying the price of sin." Christ's sacrifice paid the price for sin and made it possible for us to be (legally) right with God.
> 
> Purgatory is where the last temporal effects of sins *that are already forgiven* are purged away, and the believer is made perfect, released from all earthly attachments, before joining God in Heaven.




Ulysses, It seems you are in disagreement with this...




Pale Blue Dun said:


> I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
> 
> If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will _not get out until the last penny is paid._


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## farmasis (Jan 29, 2008)

Pale Blue Dun said:


> Dude...those ARE the Cliff Notes!
> 
> It's great reading if you can take the time. I just printed off the web page and did the research.
> 
> ...



He obviously wasn't really saved then. 

Sorry, I do not agree with the interpretations given of those scriptures, so I will pass.


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## Sugar Hill Scouter (Jan 29, 2008)

Pale Blue Dun said:


> Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
> 
> 
> Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.



Two thing wrong here : 
"catholic teaching" not Biblical teaching

"under the earth" is not purgatory. It's Hades.


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## Ulysses (Jan 29, 2008)

StriperAddict said:


> Ulysses, It seems you are in disagreement with this...



It's a technical distinction and it's hard to explain, but I'm talking about the eternal "price" of sin, i.e., death. If Jesus had not paid that, we would all go straight to h e ll, no purging needed.

The quote from PBD is still talking abour the "temporal" debt--essentially saying our association with, and attachment to, sin must be removed before we are fit to enter heaven.

Sorry if my word choice caused confusion.


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## Ulysses (Jan 29, 2008)

So do you all who don't believe in Purgatory really believe that the leaders of the Christian church in the first, second, third, and fourth centuries were all completely mistaken, and the error wasn't corrected until the Reformation happened, a full 11 centuries later?

I've just never heard a logical explanation for this.


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## StriperAddict (Jan 30, 2008)

Ulysses said:


> So do you all who don't believe in Purgatory really believe that the leaders of the Christian church in the first, second, third, and fourth centuries were all completely mistaken, and the error wasn't corrected until the Reformation happened, a full 11 centuries later?
> 
> I've just never heard a logical explanation for this.



It has simply been my understanding of scripture to refute this, regardles what was written before or after the reformation.  

There are plenty of Christian leaders and historians I respect that have a different take on the rapture of the body of Christ and the tribulation, it just means I can disagree with them about this and be encouraged on other points they make.

Thank you for your other post/explaination.


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## Ulysses (Jan 30, 2008)

StriperAddict said:


> It has simply been my understanding of scripture to refute this, regardles what was written before or after the reformation.
> 
> There are plenty of Christian leaders and historians I respect that have a different take on the rapture of the body of Christ and the tribulation, it just means I can disagree with them about this and be encouraged on other points they make.
> 
> Thank you for your other post/explaination.



Thanks for the answer, StriperAddict.


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## toddboucher (Jan 30, 2008)

Doctrine will line up with scripture, not in looking at some fuzzy verse, but will set a base line. From the fall of man the bible crys out Jesus is the full payment for sin(all sin). Purgatory doesn't pass this test for me its more dogma or man made rule. About dogma Im not sure if Im right but you know what I mean. In these last days we can only trust the word of God and if its not backed 100% clearly then we need no time to the issue. IMO


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## toddboucher (Jan 30, 2008)

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
* were is the wait time in this verse.


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## farmasis (Jan 30, 2008)

Ulysses said:


> So do you all who don't believe in Purgatory really believe that the leaders of the Christian church in the first, second, third, and fourth centuries were all completely mistaken, and the error wasn't corrected until the Reformation happened, a full 11 centuries later?
> 
> I've just never heard a logical explanation for this.



I am not sure of what church leaders believed then, but I think even now we should not rely on someone elses interpretation of scripture for us. Therefore, I have to rely on what I feel the Holy Spirit has revealed to me and go with that.


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## Ulysses (Jan 30, 2008)

toddboucher said:


> Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
> * were is the wait time in this verse.



Are you serious? "After" could be instantly, or one million years "after."


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