# Is being effeminate a sin?



## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2013)

First and foremost I don't want this to turn into a homosexual debate. All homosexual men aren't feminine. Homosexuality is  not associated with femininity. All heterosexual men aren't macho.
I've read a few verses about men being effeminate. Today we call these men "metro-sexuals." We used to call them "sissies." Our society frowns upon this behavior but is it a sin? Girls are tomboys but society doesn't care about girls that much. What does the Bible say about tomboys other than hair & clothes? 
Some of this is based on the Greek translation of the word 
"Malakois". 
OK let's go back a few years when God created the first man in God's image. I guess this would depend on if you think God was male or neither sex as he is a spirit. Either way God created "Homo perfectus" who appeared to be neither male nor female. He couldn't find a suitable mate in the animal kingdom so God made him a woman. At some time he became a man with sexual desires. Before this he had male and female qualities/traits. 
Let's skip forward to Jesus. By today's standards Jesus would have many effeminate qualities. We think of men as being assertive macho types. Jesus was humble, helpful, loving, healing, and a really all around easy going fellow. 
How does this fit in to modern day Christianity and our lifestyle?
Is being effeminate a sin? Define effeminate.
Verses please. I can think of the one about hair & clothes.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2013)

Would you consider Adam & Jesus to be masculine manifestations of God and Eve & Mary to be feminine manifestations of God?
 The examples of Jesus engaging in tender and nurturing behavior far outnumber those in which he behaves as the muscular He-Man of conservative traditionalist teaching.
Jesus was physiologically a man, but He lived fearlessly unchained by traditional gender roles; he could be both masculine and feminine, and in that sense, he transcended gender categories themselves.
In our quest for quantification and living a life of Holiness, a would assume we have to balance our  gender categories. I'm at the age where my testosterone levels are decreasing and i'm more like a woman than ever according to the experts. That's kinda scary. I think i'll go build a fire and forge a knife or something. Then i'll go anoint someone with  perfumed incense.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is being effeminate a sin?



You mean, like, flaming?


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## centerpin fan (Feb 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus was humble, helpful, loving, healing, and a really all around easy going fellow.
> How does this fit in to modern day Christianity and our lifestyle?



Good point.  The Catholic Church is way ahead of the curve on this idea:


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## Ronnie T (Feb 5, 2013)

1 Corinthians 6:9 
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

I'm not sure what the definition, as used, is.
I wore a pink tie to church Sunday.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 5, 2013)

I suspect todays definition doesn't come close to 1st centuries definition.

Probably has to do with a man not living up to the responsibilities of a man.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 5, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Good point.  The Catholic Church is way ahead of the curve on this idea:



I miss George, what movie is this from?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 5, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I suspect todays definition doesn't come close to 1st centuries definition.
> 
> Probably has to do with a man not living up to the responsibilities of a man.



You might be on to something. Malakos: dissolute, cowardly, lazy, weak, unstable, easily influenced – all qualities that were seen as feminine. In the culture of the time, women were culturally seen to be pretty, delicate … and worthless, far below the level of men, barely above the level of children and slaves.
Womanizers who didn't live up to their responsibilities were considered effiminate. It was a completely different way of life than today. 
Effiminate might even be a word that is abused when reading the Bible today.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I miss George, what movie is this from?



Dogma


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 5, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> You mean, like, flaming?



I was thinking more on the lines of trendy clothes, hair gel, enjoys shopping, manicures, & scented candles.
They were once called a "dandy."
Joe Namath suggested he was "perhaps, America's first metrosexual.


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## gtparts (Feb 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> First and foremost I don't want this to turn into a homosexual debate. All homosexual men aren't feminine. Homosexuality is  not associated with femininity. All heterosexual men aren't macho.
> I've read a few verses about men being effeminate. Today we call these men "metro-sexuals." We used to call them "sissies." Our society frowns upon this behavior but is it a sin? Girls are tomboys but society doesn't care about girls that much. What does the Bible say about tomboys other than hair & clothes?
> Some of this is based on the Greek translation of the word
> "Malakois".
> ...





Artful, I think you ask the wrong question (in blue, above). The very essence of Christianity is not modern or ancient, but a matter of conforming to the life and mind of Christ. As to our lifestyle, if it is consistent with Christ's teaching and example, we are sanctified. If not, God still has work to do in our lives, as we learn to submit to Him. At any rate, fitting the character of Christ into the theology of today, and far less, the matter of our lifestyle, is simply as wrong-headed as putting the cart before the horse. Our theology and lifestyle should always be shaped by who Christ is, not the other way around.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 5, 2013)

gtparts said:


> Artful, I think you ask the wrong question (in blue, above). The very essence of Christianity is not modern or ancient, but a matter of conforming to the life and mind of Christ. As to our lifestyle, if it is consistent with Christ's teaching and example, we are sanctified. If not, God still has work to do in our lives, as we learn to submit to Him. At any rate, fitting the character of Christ into the theology of today, and far less, the matter of our lifestyle, is simply as wrong-headed as putting the cart before the horse. Our theology and lifestyle should always be shaped by who Christ is, not the other way around.



I understand what you are saying and I don't think the fundamentals of Christianity change and are timeless. Grace, hope, love, obedience in the eyes of God are timeless and so are the sins of lying, stealing, & fornication.
What I think changes is our lifestyles & morals. My mom couldn't wear pants or call someone a fool. She could not use the word "swear". This would all seem foolish by today's standards. Men in America don't wear robes. In today's world we give women equal rights even in the Church. We freed all our slaves years ago. 
The definition of words have changed over time and from one language/culture to another, their meanings have changed.
When i started this thread I was looking for the real meaning of the word "effeminate" and if it is a sin to act that way. I think Ronnie hit the nail on the head by saying it probably had a different meaning then than now. I think he is correct and that was what I was looking for.
We have to admit changes in our lifestyles occur over centuries of time, even word meanings.
It would pay to understand this before we associate a word we think is about sissies or gays before making assumptions. One only need to take a look at the various Boy Scout post on the Political forum to see that American's think boys are not to be feminine in no ways whatsoever. I was taught that real men don't weep and show emotions. I was taught wrong. We all started out from a single being. From this single being we now have two sexes. We can't be that different in our minds, bodies, and souls. We're all on a quest of sanctification. As we become more Christlike, we'll take on what today's society sees a feminine traits. In Jesus' time being humble, loving, and caring was not frowned upon. 
I think the whole lot of us, including myself, have a long way to go on our quest to be Christlike. It's not an easy task for a worldly, redblooded, American  male, to make.


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## Mako22 (Feb 6, 2013)

Yes being a sissy is a sin.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 6, 2013)

Woodsman69 said:


> Yes being a sissy is a sin.



Do you have verses to back that up? What about women who are tomboys?  I'm talking about traits more than hair & clothing.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 6, 2013)

Fred Rogers aka, Mr. Rogers comes to mind.  Soft, gentle, non athletic, small bones, weak chin, skinny, weak voiced and non assertive. Though really nice, supportive, communicative, easy going and pleasant. All the negative things associated with macho and manliness is gone in this person.
Jimmy Carter comes to mind too. Humble & meek.


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## ambush80 (Feb 6, 2013)

this guy.....


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## ambush80 (Feb 6, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Fred Rogers aka, Mr. Rogers comes to mind.  Soft, gentle, non athletic, small bones, weak chin, skinny, weak voiced and non assertive. Though really nice, supportive, communicative, easy going and pleasant. All the negative things associated with macho and manliness is gone in this person.
> Jimmy Carter comes to mind too. Humble & meek.



I miss Fred Rogers. Rest in peace.


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## Lowjack (Feb 6, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> First and foremost I don't want this to turn into a homosexual debate. All homosexual men aren't feminine. Homosexuality is  not associated with femininity. All heterosexual men aren't macho.
> I've read a few verses about men being effeminate. Today we call these men "metro-sexuals." We used to call them "sissies." Our society frowns upon this behavior but is it a sin? Girls are tomboys but society doesn't care about girls that much. What does the Bible say about tomboys other than hair & clothes?
> Some of this is based on the Greek translation of the word
> "Malakois".
> ...



OK let's go back a few years when God created the first man in God's image. I guess this would depend on if you think God was male or neither sex as he is a spirit. Either way God created "Homo perfectus" who appeared to be neither male nor female. He couldn't find a suitable mate in the animal kingdom so God made him a woman. At some time he became a man with sexual desires Can you back this statement with scripture ?No No:


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 6, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> Can you back this statement with scripture ?No No:



I can't, you caught me, merely speculation. More speculation is perhaps Adam was XXY and God took his extra X when he made Eve. All fetuses start out with female attributes and gain male attributes later. The only thing Biblical is that Adam was made from dust, he couldn't find a mate in the Garden so God put him to sleep and made Eve from a part of him. I was just showing that males & females share our creation from the beginning of coming from the same person. We share chromosomes. Every egg contains one X chromosome. Males & female both have estrogen and testosterone hormones. We are more similar than different.

Jesus is the second Adam, born of a virgin. More speculation on my part is that he had Mary's dna which would make him a man with the proper XY chromosomes.
If I remember correctly, you don't believe he is Jewish because of Mary but Jewish because of the family he was born into. 

I know that God is a spirit. I don't know if he is male or female. I do know we were made in his image.
27So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.


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## Lowjack (Feb 6, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I can't, you caught me, merely speculation. More speculation is perhaps Adam was XXY and God took his extra X when he made Eve. All fetuses start out with female attributes and gain male attributes later. The only thing Biblical is that Adam was made from dust, he couldn't find a mate in the Garden so God put him to sleep and made Eve from a part of him. I was just showing that males & females share our creation from the beginning of coming from the same person. We share chromosomes. Every egg contains one X chromosome. Males & female both have estrogen and testosterone hormones. We are more similar than different.
> 
> Jesus is the second Adam, born of a virgin. More speculation on my part is that he had Mary's dna which would make him a man with the proper XY chromosomes.
> If I remember correctly, you don't believe he is Jewish because of Mary but Jewish because of the family he was born into.
> ...



If I remember correctly, you don't believe he is Jewish because of Mary but Jewish because of the family he was born into. Don't know where you got that from ???I have always sustain that Yeshuah Was 101% Jewish. Others have dissagreed with me.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> If I remember correctly, you don't believe he is Jewish because of Mary but Jewish because of the family he was born into. Don't know where you got that from ???I have always sustain that Yeshuah Was 101% Jewish. Others have dissagreed with me.



I apologize, it was one of the others who believes Mary was just a surrogate. 
Jesus was 100% man and 100% the Great High Priest of the Jews. I'd think he'd  have to be Jewish to fulfill that role!


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## Lowjack (Feb 7, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I apologize, it was one of the others who believes Mary was just a surrogate.
> Jesus was 100% man and 100% the Great High Priest of the Jews. I'd think he'd  have to be Jewish to fulfill that role!



Well you have certain misconceptions , Yeshua is not the priests of the Jews but The Priest of the whole World and according to a higher order of priests , the heavenly order of Melchizedek and it is said the angel Rafi-El is also one. The Great priests of the Jews is Aaron and his descendancy the Cohenim also known by their last names of Cohen , and yes the Messiah is Jewish , the concept of a Messiah is totally Jewish.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> Well you have certain misconceptions , Yeshua is not the priests of the Jews but The Priest of the whole World and according to a higher order of priests , the heavenly order of Melchizedek and it is said the angel Rafi-El is also one. The Great priests of the Jews is Aaron and his descendancy the Cohenim also known by their last names of Cohen , and yes the Messiah is Jewish , the concept of a Messiah is totally Jewish.



I was basing this on Hebrews being written for the Jews.  After re-reading the verses, I see that I was wrong to assume just because it's in Hebrews it was all just for Jews. Jesus was not even in the right lineage to be a Jewish priest, correct? What was Melchizedek's ethnic origin? Gentile?
I found this easy to explaing page. Does it look like the author covered it correctly?
http://www.andrewcorbett.net/commentaries/hebrews/study07-jesus-our-high-priest.pdf


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2013)

Getting back on subject I was reading about pederasty in the Middle East. Apparently this custom is not considered effeminate but masculine. This is in the geographic location of the birthplace of Christianity. They often found it necessary to issue warnings such as these: "A man should never spend the night in a house with beardless boys" and "Do not sit next to the sons of the rich and noble: they have faces like those of virgins and they are even more tempting than women." A Muslim who is the active partner in sexual relations with other men is not considered a “homosexual” (the word has no pre-modern Arabic equivalent); quite the contrary, his sexual domination of another man may even confer a status of hyper-masculinity. 
These examples were mentioned to demonstrate that being effeminate in Biblical times culture had nothing to do with our ideas on what is effeminate, not that they are how Jesus wanted them to act. I think he preached against male temple prostitutes. The sexual acts/customs that I mentioned is just the tip of the iceberg of what was going on in Jesus' time. It was pretty much "anything goes" and I do believe Jesus was trying to put a stop to the perversion which included way more than pederasty. 
In researching this topic I found very sickening sexual deviancy committed against children worldwide. But in sticking with the middle east, scroll down to the heading "PEDOPHILIA IN THE EAST AND MIDDLE EAST" but be for warned at the shocking way children are treated. It does cover some taboo subjects like circumcision. It just proves being effeminate is different in our culture. For one thing we don't hug other males, although that's changing in America. We don't kiss each other either. Tapping on the rear is OK among macho athletes. 
http://www.psychohistory.com/htm/06a1_incest.html


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 8, 2013)

The Hebrew God Yahweh is conceived of biblically as a male deity, with the covenant relationship between him and Israel often portrayed as that of a marriage between husband and wife.
The goddess Asherah was the consort of El ("god"), the supreme god of Canaan and father of the popular Baal.
 We know from references to,

        "the sons of God" (Gen. 6:1-4; Job 1:6, 2:1, 38:7)

        "the host of heaven" (1 Kings 22:19)

        "angels" (Gen. 19:1; Ps. 103:20)

        God’s statement "Let us make man in our image" (Gen. 1:26),
...that Yahweh was not alone in his heaven.
We know also that Yahweh supplanted the Canaanite El to the extent that God’s other names in the Hebrew Bible include El, El Elyon ("God Most High"), El Shaddai ("God Almighty"), and the (originally) plural form Elohim (as in Gen. 1:1).
But did Yahweh take El’s woman too?
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/biblianazar/esp_biblianazar_jehovah02.htm

Interesting that they once believed God had wife or feminine partner. I thought that El and Yahweh were one in the same.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 8, 2013)

The Holy Spirit being feminine or the feminine deity of Mary isn't biblical. There is a lot of speculation that the Holy Spirit is feminine. 
Would calling the Holy Spirit be blasphemy of the Holy Spirit?

http://www.spirituallysmart.com/blaspheme.html


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## Lowjack (Feb 9, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I was basing this on Hebrews being written for the Jews.  After re-reading the verses, I see that I was wrong to assume just because it's in Hebrews it was all just for Jews. Jesus was not even in the right lineage to be a Jewish priest, correct? What was Melchizedek's ethnic origin? Gentile?
> I found this easy to explaing page. Does it look like the author covered it correctly?
> http://www.andrewcorbett.net/commentaries/hebrews/study07-jesus-our-high-priest.pdf



Melchizedek falls into the heavenly priesthood catergory , the earthly priesthood of Aaron and levites is an earthly copy of the priesthood in heaven, Melchizedek was not human , he had no genetical blood line to anyone on earth, Yeshua belongs to this line of priests , offering himself as a sacrifice , the sticky point with Jews is they do not accept Yeshua's sacrifice as a human sacrifice as it is not prescribed in the Torah , Moses never mentioned it , Jews do accept a person sacrificing himself for the good of the whole community as Soldiers do in a daily basis , but religious Human sacrifice is forbiden in Judaism.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 9, 2013)

So you don't buy into Melchizedek being Shem?
Why do we need a priest in Heaven if we have God & Jesus? Didn't Abram/Abraham tithe or give a tenth part of all to Melchizedek? Wasn't Melchizedek the king of Salem? Genesis 14:18-20 sounds like Melchizedek is a man talking. 
Melchizedek has  some of the Holiness & qualities of Jesus. Some people believe he was Jesus. I don't believe that because Jesus is from the order of Melchizedek.


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## JB0704 (Feb 10, 2013)

This is an interesting thread, but, I think as with most things, the defnition of "effeminate" would matter a good deal, but, it is not defined in the Bible.

That being the case, I think it is most likely a subject best left alone.  Unless a person is effeminate, and worried about it, why does it matter?   Your sin is not my problem, and mine is not yours......and if you can't break out a black and white definition of sin, from the Bible, I tend to think any "confronting" of the sin would be self-serving at best.

On that note.....here is a good read on a similar subject (I have to bring it up every few months).....

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=632538&highlight=jesus+had+short+hair


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2013)

1 Corinthians 6:9
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

I've noticed when we discuss topics on here someone always says, "this doesn't matter because i'm saved or John 3:16." Is that the final answer for everything? Can I close my Bible now? 
Correct in that grace is grace but what is the above verse telling us? 
The thread was started after reading the few Boy Scout threads on the political forum. The general consensus is that not only is homosexuality wrong but so is being effeminate. I was trying to learn just what it was all about in Biblical terms. 
I did look at the thread on men with long hair. I went through it rather fast. Did anyone mention what was considered long hair? I've seen male Chasidic Jews with the long side curls in their hair. Men possibly didn't have a means of keeping their hair as short as what we consider short.  Men in the "old west" had what we consider long hair. Was it? It was way shorter than the women's. Short hair could be shoulder length and long hair could be waist length.
If the Bible never changes then that standard is still in play today.
What's interesting to me is the standard for men doesn't change as much as the standard for women. Women can wear short hair, jewelry, pants, be assertive, smoke, & become Church leaders. But if a man acts just a little bit meek & loving he is labeled as effeminate.


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## JB0704 (Feb 11, 2013)

My point was that I wouldn't worry about it much unless I thought I might be effeminate.  I do know that the Bible uses the term, but what was the definition?  

As far as the boy scout threads go, well, folks can believe what they want, but the truth is that children are endangered by any stranger, regardless of that strangers orientation.  So, fwiw, I disagree with the boyscout's position on the subject.  I think a worried parent should help chaperone any events in which nefarious activities might take place.  Whether the scout leader is gay or not.


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## Lead Poison (Feb 12, 2013)

Men should act like men...not limp-wristed fruit cakes.

Women should act like ladies....not like men want-a-bes.

Society in America is going down the sinful drain at a record pace. Heaven help us.


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## Lead Poison (Feb 12, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> My point was that I wouldn't worry about it much unless I thought I might be effeminate.  I do know that the Bible uses the term, but what was the definition?
> 
> As far as the boy scout threads go, well, folks can believe what they want, but the truth is that children are endangered by any stranger, regardless of that strangers orientation.  So, fwiw, I disagree with the boyscout's position on the subject.  I think a worried parent should help chaperone any events in which nefarious activities might take place.  Whether the scout leader is gay or not.



I respectfully disagree. Known (open) homosexuals have NO place anywhere near our children!


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 12, 2013)

Lead Poison said:


> Men should act like men...not limp-wristed fruit cakes.
> 
> Women should act like ladies....not like men want-a-bes.
> 
> Society in America is going down the sinful drain at a record pace. Heaven help us.



Could you be a little more specific as to the different traits of man & women. Can women fish? Can they be "fishers of men?" 
Can men be nurturing? Nurses or baby sitters?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 12, 2013)

Lead Poison said:


> I respectfully disagree. Known (open) homosexuals have NO place anywhere near our children!



Are you afraid they might molest children more that straight people or afraid they might teach children their ways? Did you know the Boy Scouts allow non-Christians into their club? 
The main thing JB is saying is, as a parent you might want to esort your own children no matter what group they are with. Now I know that can't be done all the time but look at the statistics of where kids are molested & by whom. It's a fine line between trusting others with your kids and escorting them at every moment.


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## JB0704 (Feb 12, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> The main thing JB is saying is, as a parent you might want to esort your own children no matter what group they are with.



Yep.


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## Lead Poison (Feb 12, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Are you afraid they might molest children more that straight people or afraid they might teach children their ways? Did you know the Boy Scouts allow non-Christians into their club?
> The main thing JB is saying is, as a parent you might want to esort your own children no matter what group they are with. Now I know that can't be done all the time but look at the statistics of where kids are molested & by whom. It's a fine line between trusting others with your kids and escorting them at every moment.



If you have to even ask, you wouldn't understand (accept the answer).


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## GunnSmokeer (Mar 9, 2013)

*Serving in Different Ways*

We all serve the Lord in different ways, through different career choices, different kinds of family situations, and different approaches to ministry (helping? preaching?) 

If all human beings lived exactly as Jesus lived, our species would physically die and go extinct from the earth in 100 years. Because if everybody remained single and without children, that's the end of humanity.

And I think that if all Christian were as passive as Jesus, who would never fight in a war or use violence to stop bad people from doing bad things, Christians would not have survived.  We, collectively, would have been wiped out or forced to take on the religion of those other people who would enslave us. We need soldiers and warriers. Even though Jesus would never have joined the military during his time on earth as a man.

We all have different things to bring to the table. Different skills and different interests.  All men can't be Chuck Norris and all women can't be .... trying to think of a female celebrity who is known for being girly, and has not starred in an action / heroine role..... Rachel McAdams?   Reese Witherspoon?  Kristen Bell?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 9, 2013)

GunnSmokeer said:


> We all serve the Lord in different ways, through different career choices, different kinds of family situations, and different approaches to ministry (helping? preaching?)
> 
> If all human beings lived exactly as Jesus lived, our species would physically die and go extinct from the earth in 100 years. Because if everybody remained single and without children, that's the end of humanity.
> 
> ...



I would agree depending on our physical & mental traits we do different jobs. Some appear more macho than others. When I was in the Navy and on a ship/sub, men did all the jobs. Some that only women would do in the civilian world. Not everyone likes to sweat & get their hands dirt. They become cellphone salesmen, etc. They make up their macho stuff with hobbies. Maybe the macho job people make up their feminine side with feminine hobbies. Most of it is perception anyway. In the sixties there were certain jobs men did and certain jobs women did. Men were loan officers and women were tellers. Men were not airline stewards. 
We had a guy in our shop on an Army base who went to an office job upon losing his job in our shop. The women were amazed at his typing skills. It turns out he was a state champion typist in High School and worked in office jobs earlier in his Army career.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 9, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> We had a guy in our shop on an Army base who went to an office job upon losing his job in our shop. The women were amazed at his typing skills. It turns out he was a state champion typist in High School and worked in office jobs earlier in his Army career.


 
My dad's Navy career got changed up when the brass got wind of his typing skills. He started & served on ship just after WWII but had office duty his final year of service because he could really punch out the paper.  I think he might have made the Navy a longer career run had that not happened!

I wanted to follow in my dad's footsteps, but got bumped out (1977) b/c of my teen-asthma.  Back then there were stricter entrance rules after Vietnam!


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## Israel (Mar 9, 2013)

GunnSmokeer said:


> We all serve the Lord in different ways, through different career choices, different kinds of family situations, and different approaches to ministry (helping? preaching?)
> 
> If all human beings lived exactly as Jesus lived, our species would physically die and go extinct from the earth in 100 years. Because if everybody remained single and without children, that's the end of humanity.
> 
> ...



Could it be when the books are opened that all the things that "might have been" will then be...and we...all men from Adam to whomever lasts lift his foot off this battlefield will find...everything has worked perfectly, and things done... forgiven...things "not" done while we simply waited in patiently in faith, were always our salvation?

Don't just stand there...do something?

Or... having done all (there has ever been "to do", believe the Lord)
Stand?

Pray that ye may be able to stand before the Son of man at his return.


(and, as to the "passivity of Jesus"...do you see the difference between the man who calls down friendly fire upon his own coordinates...that present enemies be made friends...and the man willing to preserve his own "way" of life...at all costs...sometimes sacrificing potential friends?)

I can judge no man but myself.


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## BrotherBadger (Mar 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Dogma



As a Catholic and as a HUGE fan of Selma Hayek(as well as Kevin Smith), this is one of my favorite movies of all time.


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## David Parker (Mar 12, 2013)

Seen the thread a bunch and a thought kept crossing my mind.  Does acknowledging value in the works of a gay/lesbian person constitute a sin?  Just trying to clarify whether there is an underlying double-standard when it comes to acceptance.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 12, 2013)

David Parker said:


> Does acknowledging value in the works of a gay/lesbian person constitute a sin?



I like Elton John and thought Ian McKellen made a great Gandolf.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 12, 2013)

David Parker said:


> Seen the thread a bunch and a thought kept crossing my mind.  Does acknowledging value in the works of a gay/lesbian person constitute a sin?  Just trying to clarify whether there is an underlying double-standard when it comes to acceptance.



That reminds me of the double standard back in the 50's & 60's of Black musicians. It was OK to like their music but it wasn't OK to accept them into the Hotels where they played.

I might have read more into your question as I did about your truck as related to "works." It appears works don't matter much on this forum. If Gay people have accepted Jesus, then they are saved as in OSAS. Works is something we all have trouble abiding by or doing. Thus Salvation by Grace alone. So therefore Grace is enough. It would be no different from a gambler or adulterer. They just can't help themselves. Me, you, and everyone else all have sinning vices, we are all saved by Grace. So to just like, associate, or even be a gay person is a sin, but forgivable.  No worse than being a yearly repeatable income tax cheater. It's an oxymoron for OSAS believers to say a certain Christian isn't going to Heaven based on their standard OSAS belief. My belief is that not every person who says they are a Christian is a Christain. I leave that up to God, not even Jesus, to decide.

I don't personally follow the belief of OSAS as my belief follows the capability of falling from grace and repentance.
It's mostly based on free will. If you are saved by grace, then you are saved. Repentance is just another "Work." Every Christian has various weaknesses that he must overcome. A habitual gambler or dope addict doesn't have an easier time than an income tax cheater or a luster. 
I say one must repent but that's just my personal belief, not the OSAS believers though.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 12, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> That reminds me of the double standard back in the 50's & 60's of Black musicians. It was OK to like their music but it wasn't OK to accept them into the Hotels where they played.
> 
> I might have read more into your question as I did about your truck as related to "works." It appears works don't matter much on this forum. If Gay people have accepted Jesus, then they are saved as in OSAS. Works is something we all have trouble abiding by or doing. Thus Salvation by Grace alone. So therefore Grace is enough. It would be no different from a gambler or adulterer. They just can't help themselves. Me, you, and everyone else all have sinning vices, we are all saved by Grace. So to just like, associate, or even be a gay person is a sin, but forgivable.  No worse than being a yearly repeatable income tax cheater. It's an oxymoron for OSAS believers to say a certain Christian isn't going to Heaven based on their standard OSAS belief. My belief is that not every person who says they are a Christian is a Christain. I leave that up to God, not even Jesus, to decide.
> 
> ...



I agree.
No sin is greater than another...and as a Christian, I believe I'm only saved because of Christ, not because I'm sinless. 

I'm a lot less sinful than I used to be because if nothing else, 'i'm under conviction', but I still miss the mark every single day.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 12, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> I agree.
> No sin is greater than another...and as a Christian, I believe I'm only saved because of Christ, not because I'm sinless.
> 
> I'm a lot less sinful than I used to be because if nothing else, 'i'm under conviction', but I still miss the mark every single day.



Thanks for your response. I personally struggle with what amount of sinning a Christian can do and get by with. I believe repentance plays some part in salvation. I don't really want to hear another "fruit" discussion. Either Christians are saved forever upon accepting Jesus or they aren't. Is everything after the acceptance considered a "work"? How can someone say a certain person is or isn't a Christian based on sinning if we continue to sin? I've never personally met a non-sinner so i'm having trouble seeing how we pick & choose.  If having lust in my heart for another woman is a sin, same as a gay man doing what he does, why the double standard?
What if I repent daily but never get over this terrible affliction?  Either you are saved at acceptance or you ain't. Then we go to on the things like santification and scripture learning as if they really matter. I believe they do and i'm sorry to lay this on you but you were the first to respond to my confused rant. 
I'm having one of those weird, soul searching  moments again. You know i've had them before, nothing personal.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 12, 2013)

I see every Christian struggling with sin daily. Some more than others with various types of sins. 
These discussions like this come up because I believe in free will. I have finally accepted that this is what I believe. I wish I didn't but I do. What I have trouble with is that when I was saved, my free will to walk away from God, vanished because of God's grace. 
Some believe we have no free will before salvation because we are too depraved. I believe I have free will before & after and thus why sin is still a struggle for me.
I'm going to bed to sleep on it. Maybe through prayer & sleep. i'll feel better in the morning.
All thoughts from others do help. Amen and good night.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 13, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm having one of those weird, soul searching  moments again. You know i've had them before, nothing personal.



Seek and ye shall find. You're doing exactly what you're suppose to be doing.

Another thing that I was thinking about is that every 'sin' isn't a sin for everyone. Just for a common example. If I go to walmart and buy things that makes me feel better sometimes, for whatever reason, that I could do without. is sinful or not the right thing I should be doing. I've had a struggle with money for that past few years, but it's getting better now that I have a job. But I'm under conviction for buying crapola that I don't need, because I'm not caught up on my bills yet, etc etc etc. I believe I'm missing the mark on that and it's sinful...I do it anyway. Where as someone else could go to walmart and do the same thing, buy stuff they don't really need and it not be a sin because they have plenty of money...still have plenty of money to share, and tithe, and help others etc etc.

I know that sounds silly probably, but me in my situation I'm missing the mark and I know it and I do it anyway. I always tell my daughter....'i went to walmart and satan was throwing stuff in the cart and I was throwing it out'....LOL...just a joke of course.

I don't know just ramblin'.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 13, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Seek and ye shall find. You're doing exactly what you're suppose to be doing.
> 
> Another thing that I was thinking about is that every 'sin' isn't a sin for everyone. Just for a common example. If I go to walmart and buy things that makes me feel better sometimes, for whatever reason, that I could do without. is sinful or not the right thing I should be doing. I've had a struggle with money for that past few years, but it's getting better now that I have a job. But I'm under conviction for buying crapola that I don't need, because I'm not caught up on my bills yet, etc etc etc. I believe I'm missing the mark on that and it's sinful...I do it anyway. Where as someone else could go to walmart and do the same thing, buy stuff they don't really need and it not be a sin because they have plenty of money...still have plenty of money to share, and tithe, and help others etc etc.
> 
> ...



It's morning and I received some sweet inspiration over the night. I understand what you are saying about sin which brings me back to the OP. Men who didn't take care of their family first but went out gambling, womanizing, and yes even men who slept with male  temple prostitutes, were acting effiminate. The act of hetero men sleeping with male prostitutes was not considered effiminate by men of that time period. Married men who sleep with people of either sex is wrong.
It would be wrong and unnatural for a hetero male to sleep with men. Men are to act like men and take care of keeping their families needs first. This means cleaning up the yards, repairing the car, and paying the bills. Watching ball games and car races could be effiminate if you haven't done your macho man chores first.
What about women? Is it a sin for them or is that just for men?


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## mtnwoman (Mar 13, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's morning and I received some sweet inspiration over the night. I understand what you are saying about sin which brings me back to the OP. Men who didn't take care of their family first but went out gambling, womanizing, and yes even men who slept with male  temple prostitutes, were acting effiminate. The act of hetero men sleeping with male prostitutes was not considered effiminate by men of that time period. Married men who sleep with people of either sex is wrong.
> It would be wrong and unnatural for a hetero male to sleep with men. Men are to act like men and take care of keeping their families needs first. This means cleaning up the yards, repairing the car, and paying the bills. Watching ball games and car races could be effiminate if you haven't done your macho man chores first.
> What about women? Is it a sin for them or is that just for men?



To me personally, either is a sin. For one reason, I'm a bible believer and for another it seems unnatural to me. I've never had that desire. Both are very unappealing to me.

This is sort of beside the point, but just thought I'd mention this. One of my best friends and excoworkers is 'flaming'.  We openly discuss this issue, without some of the 'please spare me the details', on my part. He shoulda been a comedian and we shoulda been comedians together. He keeps me rolling and we have a blast together. I've never discussed the biblical aspect with him. But I have said things like, what a waste (for women) of a beautiful man. I can say anything to him, and him to me and he doesn't hesitate to use explicit language, but it's always in such a funny way that you can't help but laugh.

He is good to me and a faithful friend and I'd never hurt him with my words.

He was sexually abused by an uncle as a child for quite a few years and continued on in life with the same sexual lifestyle and never been with a woman. He said it was gross to go there where a baby was born. Probably indoctrinated with that thought process. He is not a receiver either, if you know what I mean.  So I told him his natural instinct then was to be the giver, and he should at least try being with a woman, that he has been misinformed.
I sorta hate to say that because I don't want to influence him to just pick up women, I don't think that's a good idea either, ya know?

He thinks my 23 granddaughter is a doll and contemplated taking her out and she wanted to go, never happened but they are also great friends. But told her if he wasn't gay he'd be one her like.....well you know. 

That is just my personal experience and to say he just ain't right in the head, and neither am I.  

He goes to church, I'm not sure what church but I believe it's presbyterian. 

I do want to witness to him and I sorta do sometimes in a vague way. I'm waiting for God to give me the right time and situation. I do pray about it and I tell him I do...I tell him I'll pray for God to send him the right person, and of course I'm not speaking of a man. I just tell him one day he'll meet a woman he cannot resist.

Anyway that's all besides the point and maybe shouldn't have brought it up, but maybe it sort of explains why my view on it is what it is. I try to keep in mind 'do unto others' and have told him that God is the judge, not me.

Sorry so long and drawn out.


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## barryl (Mar 13, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks for your response. I personally struggle with what amount of sinning a Christian can do and get by with. I believe repentance plays some part in salvation. I don't really want to hear another "fruit" discussion. Either Christians are saved forever upon accepting Jesus or they aren't. Is everything after the acceptance considered a "work"? How can someone say a certain person is or isn't a Christian based on sinning if we continue to sin? I've never personally met a non-sinner so i'm having trouble seeing how we pick & choose.  If having lust in my heart for another woman is a sin, same as a gay man doing what he does, why the double standard?
> What if I repent daily but never get over this terrible affliction?  Either you are saved at acceptance or you ain't. Then we go to on the things like santification and scripture learning as if they really matter. I believe they do and i'm sorry to lay this on you but you were the first to respond to my confused rant.
> I'm having one of those weird, soul searching  moments again. You know i've had them before, nothing personal.


Mind if I take a stab at your question ? Sanctification-{John 17:17} The act whereby "God sets a saved sinner apart," so that, from then on, he is dealt with  as a son{Doctrine of Adoption} instead of as a stranger.      I think you know who the author of confusion is, HOW ? The Bible tells us who is !! The Apostle Paul tells us in the "Bible" that we struggle with sin{Flesh} daily. Paul said he had to DIE Daily. Romans Ch. 7: 15-25


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 13, 2013)

barryl said:


> Mind if I take a stab at your question ? Sanctification-{John 17:17} The act whereby "God sets a saved sinner apart," so that, from then on, he is dealt with  as a son{Doctrine of Adoption} instead of as a stranger.      I think you know who the author of confusion is, HOW ? The Bible tells us who is !! The Apostle Paul tells us in the "Bible" that we struggle with sin{Flesh} daily. Paul said he had to DIE Daily. Romans Ch. 7: 15-25



I do know who the author of confusion is. One thing i'm not guilty of is knowing the power of Satan. I also know the power of man as in sinning. Now back to Sanctification, is that something I must do personally or something the Holy Spirit does to me? Have you personally reached total Sanctification to the point you don't sin anymore?


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## mtnwoman (Mar 13, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Sanctification to the point you don't sin anymore?



I certainly haven't and doubt I ever will, even though I do strive for the high calling of God...I doubt I'll make it. Thank you God for your Son, Jesus, who takes away the sins of the world. I'm too old to make it now prolly and obviously too 'ignernt'.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 13, 2013)

Masculinity is… the God-ordained, primary responsibility to humbly imitate Christ’s love and leadership, wisely demonstrate strength and security,  and boldly initiate protection and provision for those within your circle of influence.

http://www.crosswalk.com/blogs/kevin-east/macho-macho-man--what-is-biblical-masculinity.html


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 13, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> I certainly haven't and doubt I ever will, even though I do strive for the high calling of God...I doubt I'll make it. Thank you God for your Son, Jesus, who takes away the sins of the world. I'm too old to make it now prolly and obviously too 'ignernt'.



This reminded me of this verse:
1 Corinthians 13:13
Three things will last forever--faith, hope, and love--and the greatest of these is love.


I believe you have all three, so you'll be just fine. All we can do is strive and do our best.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 14, 2013)

*the battle.........                   won!*

In the arena of our struggles with sin/the flesh, the one thing the world doesn't understand is the secret of abiding.  

Yep, there are books on overcoming every sin known to man, but in the end only one thing is gonna "do it",

Faith in the cross of Christ - the finished work,
and abiding in the real presence of the Lord.

It all sounds to good to be true, but I'm sure this is one of the mysteries of the gospel, 
and one which even believers have a hard time wrapping their beliefs around.

*John 15:7* 
If you *abide* *in* *Me*, and My words *abide* *in* you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.

I used to think that the above verse was carte blanche on material needs I have, and to suggest otherwise might get the presumptious faith crowd in a tizzy.  But I digress.  The Lord says in Christ all my needs _are_ met, and I try to leave it (material things, etc) at that.

But the one thing I take from the abiding verse is the very real promise that God will begin to work on those issues of _heart_ that still bug the tar outta me!

Ya'll know what I'm talking about...  that rage all over the guy in the Mercedes cutting ahead and missing the bumper by 2 inches  , or not being quick to forgive some petty family thing  ;  or lashing out at the job with sarcasm unappropriately , or that extra long 1st look at the gal in Publix No No:No No: !!

Sans humor, you get the picture. 

But then you have one of those moments...  that either you or the Lord initiate. You come into His presence boldly, in spite of you shortcomings, knowing that He has already forgiven you from the cross, already loves you like the child you are to Him. You settle up with Abba Father, not to make silly promises, 
"Oh Lord, I promise I won't do that again",
but just to abide, 
to stay,
get refreshed,
find His lasting peace,

and you know as you confess those behaviors that the living God has already dealt them the death blow...  that the cross has already, past tense, whiped your slate clean,
and by faith you settle for His strength... not your own... to solve those behaviors.
More than likely, so much more is taking place at that special moment of union with your Father than you could possibly realise,
and the Spirit within also adds His own groanings, straight to the Father on your behalf,
too deep for words.

You rise up from that place of intimacy with your loving Heavenly Father...


changed.



You can't explain it, but that brother that hurt you bad the other day, well, you find you have the calm and peace to forgive him.

You didn't manufacture such a reaction in the power of your "self", your flesh.  God did it.  The very thing He does best...  
change hearts.  And you beging to give thanks and praise. It was all His doing, becoming more His workmanship, created in Christ for good works.  And not yours, His!  

In abiding in Him, you see the reality of being crucified with your Saviour, and allowing His life to flow thru you.  Even in those situations that once threw curves, now you see His victory.

*Psalm 46:10* 
“Cease _*striving*_ and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth.”
Psalm 46:9-11 (in Context)


*John 15:5* 
I am the vine, you are the branches; he who *abide*s *in* *Me* and I *in* him, he bears much fruit, for apart from *Me* you can do nothing.
John 15:4-6 (in Context)


Amen?


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## Israel (Mar 14, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> In the arena of our struggles with sin/the flesh, the one thing the world doesn't understand is the secret of abiding.
> 
> Yep, there are books on overcoming every sin known to man, but in the end only one thing is gonna "do it",
> 
> ...


 many many amens...

It is almost too simple till the Lord's work reduces us to see what we have always either ignored...been too preoccupied to see...or just blinded by forces that never want us to see the mainspring of our being.
And that...as you so eloquently and wisely put...is to "be" with someone.
But...when we are reduced (again, I believe...the Lord's work)...that is... weaned from all the little things we have been told are the ways to happiness or joy...we discover..."gee...all I ever wanted was for someone who understands me to be with me".
All these other things kinda fade...in his presence.
And again...as you so wonderfully put...at those times when things I don't like to admit seem to take a hold...turn my head...or rivet my eyes and desires or attentions...someone causes me to realize...he not only knows all my weaknesses...but doesn't abandon me to them.


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