# crippled birds?



## krazybronco2 (May 31, 2013)

ok this came up on anouther forum but figured i would ask here.

your dog is swimming back with a dead and a door knob duck and on the way back you shot a duck but it is crippled and looking to get away. what do you want your dog to do? also the cripple is pretty close to the dog so shooting is out of the picture. simular to a diversion in a HT.

and to add to anouther question if you want the dog to drop the dead duck and go for the crippled duck how would you train for this? because we normally train to dog to hold the duck come back then get the diversion without switching.


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## ThunderRoad (May 31, 2013)

Id have the dog complete the retrieve, and once he is clear send him on the cripple. If I can get a shot on the cripple once I know my dog is safe, Ill take it. If not, he is gonna do some swimming.


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## krazybronco2 (May 31, 2013)

ThunderRoad said:


> Id have the dog complete the retrieve, and once he is clear send him on the cripple. If I can get a shot on the cripple once I know my dog is safe, Ill take it. If not, he is gonna do some swimming.



sounds like you have done this a time or 2


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## ThunderRoad (May 31, 2013)

krazybronco2 said:


> sounds like you have done this a time or 2



I used to not even wait until shelby was clear of a bird. One time I blew a wood ducks head off that almost lit on top of shelby as he was finishing a retrieve. 


I dont drink when I hunt anymore


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## king killer delete (May 31, 2013)

Never switch birds . Dog should finish the retreive with the bird that it has picked up. If you let the dog change birds your are allowing a bad habit to start and you will regret the out come when training your dog for hunt test. Somewhere along the line he will have that same situation  arise in a hunt test. The judges will be trying to make your dog switch birds. Hunt the way you train.


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## Turkey Trax (May 31, 2013)

killer elite said:


> Somewhere along the line he will have that same situation  arise in a hunt test. The judges will be trying to make your dog switch birds.



Yep. Every seasoned or finished test they throw a diversion bird on the way back from either a mark of the blind, either on land or water each day.


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## krazybronco2 (May 31, 2013)

Turkey Trax said:


> Yep. Every seasoned or finished test they throw a diversion bird on the way back from either a mark of the blind, either on land or water each day.



i understand that, but the diversion bird is dead not crippled and about to get away. 

that would be why i asked the question.


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## Turkey Trax (May 31, 2013)

krazybronco2 said:


> i understand that, but the diversion bird is dead not crippled and about to get away.
> 
> that would be why i asked the question.



Then shoot it again or make sure your dog can handle a long way and through junk.


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## Millcreekfarms (May 31, 2013)

Do they throw the diversion birds in AKC started test? I want to take my pup but i know he will go crazy for the diversion we are both still working on that.(this is my first attempt to train a retriever)


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## king killer delete (May 31, 2013)

*They do the same thing in a fld trial.*

years ago the CSRA retriever club held a mini fld trial ,club trial called the Georgia duck dog. This was long before AKC/NAHRA/UKC had hunt test. One old trick they would do was to put a wild rabbit in a cage on a single mark. You would think this was strange but you would be surprised how many dogs would break down and start to hunt around that rabbit cage. it was an old trick that some guys learned out in south Dakota pheasant hunting. But a bird switch is a no no .


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## Joe Overby (Jun 1, 2013)

Millcreekfarms said:


> Do they throw the diversion birds in AKC started test? I want to take my pup but i know he will go crazy for the diversion we are both still working on that.(this is my first attempt to train a retriever)



Do you mean a AKC Junior test???  Or are you talking about a HRC Started test???  The work is similar but the line is a bit different...have to deliver to hand in Junior...only have to get back within a "reasonable distance" in started...diversions are a no no in both venues.  Have you read the rulebook yet??  If not...I would....


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## mtr3333 (Jun 1, 2013)

ThunderRoad said:


> Id have the dog complete the retrieve, and once he is clear send him on the cripple. If I can get a shot on the cripple once I know my dog is safe, Ill take it. If not, he is gonna do some swimming.



This^ The dog needs to maintain focus. It is also up to you not to add to his distractions.


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## Mark K (Jun 3, 2013)

Sounds more like the question should read, do you want a dog that will win you ribbons or a dog that will retrieve your ducks??


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## Joe Overby (Jun 3, 2013)

Mark K said:


> Sounds more like the question should read, do you want a dog that will win you ribbons or a dog that will retrieve your ducks??



Common misconception.......all of mine do both...extremely well.  Yet another reason not to hunt a dog till he's fully finished.


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## Mark Brooks (Jun 3, 2013)

Never Switch.  You will be sorry to start that with a well trained dog.  

Who shot while the dog was in the water anyway?  Hard rule around our swamp, if a dog is down range in the water the birds fly.  

Patience and safety way out weigh a limit of birds for one morning.


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## ThunderRoad (Jun 3, 2013)

mark k said:


> i've seen a catahoula bulldog retrieve dead ducks!!



brah


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## nhancedsvt (Jun 3, 2013)

Mark Brooks said:


> Never Switch.  You will be sorry to start that with a well trained dog.
> 
> Who shot while the dog was in the water anyway?  Hard rule around our swamp, if a dog is down range in the water the birds fly.
> 
> Patience and safety way out weigh a limit of birds for one morning.



I believe if someone shot down range of my dog they'd get a butt whoopin right there in the swamp.


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## king killer delete (Jun 3, 2013)

*With you on that brother.*



nhancedsvt said:


> I believe if someone shot down range of my dog they'd get a butt whoopin right there in the swamp.


 Dogs in the water no cripple shooting until the dog is back in the blind or the boat. seen a couple of dogs hurt by the owners trying to kill cripples. I was lucky I was not there to see this happen just saw what happen after.


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## Flaustin1 (Jun 3, 2013)

Majority of the time a dog will find the cripple just so long as you get it down wind of the bird.  That being said, i never ran hunt tests so if my dog went after a cripple, id let her go then send her back to the dead bird.  I never had any shortcomings from it either.


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## 91xjgawes (Jun 3, 2013)

Mark K said:


> Sounds more like the question should read, do you want a dog that will win you ribbons or a dog that will retrieve your ducks??



Agreed.


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## Turkey Trax (Jun 3, 2013)

Mark K said:


> Sounds more like the question should read, do you want a dog that will win you ribbons or a dog that will retrieve your ducks??



sounds more like you've not hunted with a dog that wins ribbons. 

Typically, a dog we (at least Joe or myself for the sake of this thread), consider a finished hunting dog is not going to run into a situation on 99% of the hunts that he/she can't handle with ease, speed, and style. And they're not gonna switch birds.


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## Woods Savvy (Jun 4, 2013)

Turkey Trax said:


> sounds more like you've not hunted with a dog that wins ribbons.
> 
> Typically, a dog we (at least Joe or myself for the sake of this thread), consider a finished hunting dog is not going to run into a situation on 99% of the hunts that he/she can'
> 
> ...



A good many duck hunters will never know what a finished dog is. If you are not ok with guys shooting over your dog safely there not finished.


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## macondaly (Jun 4, 2013)

Kj





Woods Savvy said:


> A good many duck hunters will never know what a finished dog is. If you are not ok with guys shooting over your dog safely there not finished.



Please clarify this statement. It sounds like you would let someone shoot a cripple in close proximity to your dog. On hunts with my dog or with multiple dogs, the dog handlers run the hunt. Nobody shoots after the dog is out of the blind. If a cripple is shot after, the owner/handler does so. 

If you're son was retrieving a cripple duck on a hunt would you like someone shooting a cripple across their bow?


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## krazybronco2 (Jun 4, 2013)

Woods Savvy said:


> A good many duck hunters will never know what a finished dog is. If you are not ok with guys shooting over your dog safely there not finished.



having someone shot over your dog has nothing to do with being your dog being finished. 

an no a lot of hunters will not know what a finished dog looks like. throwing rocks and out of control is what they want. 

i want a steady dog that is quiet can do multiple retrieves run a cold blind out to 100yd with out a problem and absolutly loves hunting.  right now i have 2.5 of the 4 i mentioned she is steady and loves to hunt she is pretty good on doubles but needs some more confidence in triples. all we have left is working on the cold blind (currently working our way through single t).


I asked this question because there where quite a few on the other forum that said they would want thier dog to follow its instincts and chase the cripple.

I do train for diversions by bringing her all the way in. before getting the diversion.


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## macondaly (Jun 4, 2013)

To answer the OP, you should treat every retrieve or set of retrieves like a test, no matter if its a hunt test, field trial or hunt.  Survey the test, identify the factors, and decide the order to pick up the birds before you kick the dog off.  If you have a truly finished dog it will be comfortable with poison birds.  Identify cripples and pick them up before dead birds.  A really good dog can be handled away from a dead bird BEFORE it picks it up, to retrieve a cripple.  

If you think poison birds aren't for meat dogs, explain to your son  why you think this when your dog won't run passed the dead bird your brother shot to pick up the kids first wood duck that is scuttling away.


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## ThunderRoad (Jun 4, 2013)

macondaly said:


> To answer the OP, you should treat every retrieve or set of retrieves like a test, no matter if its a hunt test, field trial or hunt.  Survey the test, identify the factors, and decide the order to pick up the birds before you kick the dog off.  If you have a truly finished dog it will be comfortable with poison birds.  Identify cripples and pick them up before dead birds.  A really good dog can be handled away from a dead bird BEFORE it picks it up, to retrieve a cripple.
> 
> If you think poison birds aren't for meat dogs, explain to your son  why you think this when your dog won't run passed the dead bird your brother shot to pick up the kids first wood duck that is scuttling away.



X2

Identify yourself.


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## Mark Brooks (Jun 4, 2013)

nhancedsvt said:


> I believe if someone shot down range of my dog they'd get a butt whoopin right there in the swamp.



Amen Brother


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## Woods Savvy (Jun 4, 2013)

krazybronco2 said:


> having someone shot over your dog has nothing to do with being your dog being finished.
> 
> an no a lot of hunters will not know what a finished dog looks like. throwing rocks and out of control is what they want.
> 
> ...



It all changes when you have 15 to 20 guns in a timber hole. Shooting over the dog at that time has everything to do with if he or she is finished.


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## Mark K (Jun 4, 2013)

I've often wondered where the experts get trained now I know!! They come to GON!! 
Yes, turkey trax, I have hunted over some ribboned dogs. I'm not understanding the statement. Apparently I'm not understanding the original question or either I'm the only ethical hunter on this forum. 
This is a Duckhunting Forum. And by hunting I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that means killing. Now my ethical side of me is to get the duck. I don't like to waste/lose anything! If my dog is swimming back with a dead duck in it's mouth and an unknown cripple surfaces near him, I will cast my dog to the cripple and hoping like heck he drops the dead duck and gets the duck that I stand a chance of losing!! Afterall, if I'm worried about ribbons I wouldn't take him hunting.
It must be an honor to hunt with some of y'all. Never crippling ducks. Never losing ducks. Does God call y'all for advice?? Better yet, it must be awesome to have the perfect duck holes where ducks can't get away. Some of us less fortunate have to hunt where we can and that means some of the thickest nastiest holes you could ever see. I've got people that won't bring their dogs to our holes for fear of losing the dogs!! 

To answer the original question: I hope like heck that if cast to the cripple that natural instinct takes over and he goes for it. As far as training goes I can't think of anything you could do to train for that. Besides the judges wouldn't like it!!

Oh yeah, the catahoula bulldog was named Richard Henry, they called him Dick for short. I've seen him fetch ducks, cormorants, and great blue herons!


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## Joe Overby (Jun 4, 2013)

Woods Savvy said:


> It all changes when you have 15 to 20 guns in a timber hole. Shooting over the dog at that time has everything to do with if he or she is finished.


I couldn't disagree more. NOTHING changes when there are 15-20 guns in a timber hole...and shooting over a dog has nothing to do with whether it not the dog is finished.  It only takes one errant pellet to blind, cripple, or even worse kill a dog. You wanna shoot over your dog that's your business...you shoot over mine and you won't have to worry about hunting ever again. 

To put it in terms of money...my finished dog is worth more than your truck...you want me shooting towards your truck?? If anything, when there are that many guns in one hole, safety of fellow hunters AND the working dogs should be paramount....not the thrill of killing one more little duck...you've got your priorities out of order sir.


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## Turkey Trax (Jun 4, 2013)

Mark K said:


> Yes, turkey trax, I have hunted over some ribboned dogs. I'm not understanding the statement.



I made that statement because right before that when we said, we don't want our dogs switching, you made the exact comment- "do you want a dog that will win you ribbons or a dog that will retrieve your ducks??" most would infer from your statement that our "ribbon winning" dogs, don't know how to pick up ducks.


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## Joe Overby (Jun 4, 2013)

Mark K said:


> I've often wondered where the experts get trained now I know!! They come to GON!!
> Yes, turkey trax, I have hunted over some ribboned dogs. I'm not understanding the statement. Apparently I'm not understanding the original question or either I'm the only ethical hunter on this forum.
> This is a Duckhunting Forum. And by hunting I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that means killing. Now my ethical side of me is to get the duck. I don't like to waste/lose anything! If my dog is swimming back with a dead duck in it's mouth and an unknown cripple surfaces near him, I will cast my dog to the cripple and hoping like heck he drops the dead duck and gets the duck that I stand a chance of losing!! Afterall, if I'm worried about ribbons I wouldn't take him hunting.
> It must be an honor to hunt with some of y'all. Never crippling ducks. Never losing ducks. Does God call y'all for advice?? Better yet, it must be awesome to have the perfect duck holes where ducks can't get away. Some of us less fortunate have to hunt where we can and that means some of the thickest nastiest holes you could ever see. I've got people that won't bring their dogs to our holes for fear of losing the dogs!!
> ...


There are many hunting scenarios that cannot be duplicated in either a test or training.  Let's modify the original question a little more and let's just say the dog is completing a retrieve of a cripple when another cripple is dropped....what do you do then?? 

It has nothing at all to do with having to choose between ribbons and hunting. The entire reason we started chasing ribbons was to extend our duck season. That and the continual year round training makes for a better hunting companion in the blind. Sure there is the proverbial measuring contests between members of the training group but it pushes us to train a better dog. And why are we experts now with a direct line to God???? Because we advocate not hunting a dog until it is finished and has the tools to handle the situations that cannot be trained for?? Your rant holds no water. Did you ever stop to think that maybe people wont hunt their dogs in your "nasty holes" either because they are unsafe for the dog or maybe their dog isn't capable of doing the level of work necessary to be successful in that environment?? 

Yes, some of us are very fortunate to have nice pieces of private land where we can control the hunt. But a truly finished dog, regardless of title, should be able to perform in a miriad of hunting situations and do it with style and intelligence. 

BTW, I like the name of that catahoula...


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## Mark K (Jun 4, 2013)

Again, experts talking but nothing being said. 

First, Turkey Trax, I've hunted over some sho'nuff ribboned dogs. Chris Akins, The Pitts, John Wagnon, too name a few. Dang good dogs and handlers too!! Here's where the ribbon hunters vs the duck hunters come into play. Since Joe is changing up the original question I will too: It's 30minutes after daylight, the ducks are coming in flock after flock!! I mean it's a barn burner. I have a cripple fall about 65yds out and swims straight away to the opposite bank about 150 yds away. I send my dog and he takes a line and swims straight down the center and finally catches that duck up the levy at the other end. Now, as a duck hunter I want him back in the blind ASAP. He runs the bank back and get's back long before he would have ever swam back. Now to the ribbon hunters that is unacceptable. Your dogs aren't allowed to think for themselves - you think for them. For us duck hunters, my dog is already on another dead duck!!


Joe, Joe, Joe, in that situation there is no win. Of course you wouldn't want your dog dropping a cripple! Duh!! But that's not what the original question was. I've seen some Finished dogs bring back two ducks at once! I bet that's bad too. I like hunting over finished dogs that are hunters!! And yep, in the rice/bean fields of Arkansas or Mississippi a started dog can look like a champion!! I've seen some Finished dogs sent once and never have to be handled and retrieve 8 ducks!! That dog could hunt and has over 8K retrieves. Nothing wrong with a ribboned dog or a meat dog as long as that dog can hunt. Personally I'd be more impressed with a dog that would drop a dead duck to get a cripple, if sent!! I understand you want the dog to get the bird you send it after and it should retrieve that bird! That's a given. But again, the original question was if the duck in your dogs mouth is stone cold dead as he's swimming back to you, do you take the chance of losing the criplle that's right near your dog? Or do you hope your dog can find the cripple?? And if your dog is so highly trained shouldn't you be able to control the dog to do that?? Mine won't. That's why I said I hope like heck instinct takes over if sent towards that duck.


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## Mark K (Jun 4, 2013)

BTW, the original statement was "you" shot a duck that was crippled - not anyone else.


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## Joe Overby (Jun 4, 2013)

What's this "expert" crap?? And what's not being said?? I'll answer the original question...finish the retrieve and then go get the cripple. 

FWIW, digs learn the difference between hunting and testing...a quick refresher on cheating singles after duck season often serves as enough of a reminder for a finished dog to clean up his act before ht season.

I'm glad you've hunted with akin and the boys...they have some nice dogs for sure...but you aren't arguing with rookies here either.


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## Woods Savvy (Jun 4, 2013)

For starter that picture is public land and every greentimber picture on this forum i posted is public land. Your dog being worth more than my truck would not be saying much considering its 1998 chevy. Ive hunted with alot of dogs and people never once has one been hurt. (15 YEARS PLUS) If your dog is retrieving a bird on the right side of the hole and theres cripples swimming away on the other side and we cannot shoot them your dog will go to the boat. Thats what i would call shooting over your dog!!


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## Mark K (Jun 4, 2013)

Never called you rookies. In fact I said it would be awesome hunting with y'all. I'm sure your dogs are some of the best around. I'm sure you have more ribbons on one dog than me and my immediate hunting buddies have on all ours combined. 

Have you ever lost a duck?? I have and I'm certain that every one I've lost was banded too!! Will I ever know for sure? Nope. 

Since your dogs can retrieve "extremely well" how do you send it after a cripple that is now in the brush some where? You don't have a line of sight to it. You just know the direction it went when it swam past your dog on the way in. Do you intentionally send it downwind? Do you send it to the last known sight? Or do you send it and let instinct take over?


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## Joe Overby (Jun 4, 2013)

OK..yes I have lost ducks. And yes I send them in down wind and hope. No it will not pass a test...yes it will save a cripple. Handling while hunting and testing is completely different.


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## Joe Overby (Jun 4, 2013)

Woods Savvy said:


> For starter that picture is public land and every greentimber picture on this forum i posted is public land. Your dog being worth more than my truck would not be saying much considering its 1998 chevy. Ive hunted with alot of dogs and people never once has one been hurt. (15 YEARS PLUS) If your dog is retrieving a bird on the right side of the hole and theres cripples swimming away on the other side and we cannot shoot them your dog will go to the boat. Thats what i would call shooting over your dog!!



I'm glad one has never been hurt. I stand by my original comment. The mere fact that having the ability to shoot at incoming ducks while a dog is in the water makes your hunt enjoyable and if not allowed to do so while my dog was in the water would exile him to the boat tells me enough about you that I wouldn't have to worry about ever hunting with you or people like you. My dog, my rules....you don't like it you go sit in the boat! I am appalled at your attitude towards shooting while dogs are retrieving. And as far as the dog/truck comparison goes...let's just say 20k wouldn't do it. But since you don't understand the inference...how about this...send your kid to retrieve your birds and see if your attitude about shooting incomers while retrieves are completed. If that doesn't change your mind you need serious help.


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## ThunderRoad (Jun 4, 2013)

Killer Elite,

Whats your take on this? Youve been hunting ducks since the dust bowl aint ya?   J/K


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## king killer delete (Jun 4, 2013)

Which Pitts did you hunt with?


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## Woods Savvy (Jun 4, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> I'm glad one has never been hurt. I stand by my original comment. The mere fact that having the ability to shoot at incoming ducks while a dog is in the water makes your hunt enjoyable and if not allowed to do so while my dog was in the water would exile him to the boat tells me enough about you that I wouldn't have to worry about ever hunting with you or people like you. My dog, my rules....you don't like it you go sit in the boat! I am appalled at your attitude towards shooting while dogs are retrieving. And as far as the dog/truck comparison goes...let's just say 20k wouldn't do it. But since you don't understand the inference...how about this...send your kid to retrieve your birds and see if your attitude about shooting incomers while retrieves are completed. If that doesn't change your mind you need serious help.



so when your quail hunting in south GA. and your dog bust a cubby do you call it back before you shoot.


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## bander_TC50 (Jun 4, 2013)

this is an intresting read, very informative


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## bander_TC50 (Jun 4, 2013)

Woods Savvy said:


> so when your quail hunting in south GA. and your dog bust a cubby do you call it back before you shoot.



i would say that shooting a rising quail with your dog 10 ft in front of you and and shooting a duck thats locked up and  falling into a spread of decoys with your dog out on a retrieve in the water is a little diffrent.

 but, then again killing decoying birds while a dog is out is difrent than trying to "ancor" a cripple while a dog is out trying to pick up birds.  personaly shooting a cripple while a dog is on the watter is hazardous to the dog 

but all of that is not the purpose of this post. the question was should the dog finish the retrieve he is bringing back before he goes for a cripple that falls while he is returning.

me myself im just glad my dog brings back the bird and not something else


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## Joe Overby (Jun 4, 2013)

Woods Savvy said:


> so when your quail hunting in south GA. and your dog bust a cubby do you call it back before you shoot.



I don't quail hunt. Moot point. And FYI...all of my dogs are steady to wing AND shot...birds flush, fido sits until released...and does not break on the shot. The dog games I play require this standard. A lot of die hard pheasant hunters don't like this because lightly hit roosters will often run if not stone cold dead. A truly steady will lose some birds sure...but he isn't getting shot in the back of the head over a stupid little ditch chicken. I have friends who worked these quail preserves in s ga and have buried dogs because of irresponsible gun handling. I will not out my dogs in that situation...and I won't allow anyone hunting with me place my dog in harms way. There will be more ducks....they're not worth the life of my dog.


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## Mark K (Jun 4, 2013)

Killer, which Pitts do you know?? Based on what I said about the dogs you should know who.


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## Mark K (Jun 4, 2013)

That's what I wanted to hear Joe! Good on ya!! Finally, someone that will bend the rules a little to get a duck and not worry about what someone might think about his dog. Kudo's my friend! And like you, my dog comes first!! 

My dog isn't a robot, he's my friend. He's not perfect, but I will bust someone's tail over him in a heartbeat!!


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## ngaduck (Jun 4, 2013)

Mark K said:


> Since your dogs can retrieve "extremely well" how do you send it after a cripple that is now in the brush some where? You don't have a line of sight to it. You just know the direction it went when it swam past your dog on the way in. Do you intentionally send it downwind? Do you send it to the last known sight? Or do you send it and let instinct take over?



This bird was the first bird down for the morning. It was a cripple with birdsstill flying. It sailed about 75yds into the cover behind us. I last saw/heard the bird splashing toward the left bank. After the woodies quit flying, I kicked her off into the brush. When I lost sight of her, I let her hunt and she came out with this.


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## Woods Savvy (Jun 4, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> I'm glad one has never been hurt. I stand by my original comment. The mere fact that having the ability to shoot at incoming ducks while a dog is in the water makes your hunt enjoyable and if not allowed to do so while my dog was in the water would exile him to the boat tells me enough about you that I wouldn't have to worry about ever hunting with you or people like you. My dog, my rules....you don't like it you go sit in the boat! I am appalled at your attitude towards shooting while dogs are retrieving. And as far as the dog/truck comparison goes...let's just say 20k wouldn't do it. But since you don't understand the inference...how about this...send your kid to retrieve your birds and see if your attitude about shooting incomers while retrieves are completed. If that doesn't change your mind you need serious help.



I would love to hear your sales pitch on how you sale a dog for over 20k thats never been shot over is it ribbons or what


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## Joe Overby (Jun 4, 2013)

Good lord man..."shooting over a dog" and a "dog who has been shot over" are 2 totally different things. You shoot while my dog is in the water and you are literally shooting over my dog. A dog who has been - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - over typically refers to a dog who has some hunting experience. 

20k is just the start. There isn't enough money to replace my old dog...and there ain't a sales pitch bud..dogs don't lie...mine are titled in multiple organizations, fully trained, hunted over, and have pedigrees with generations of dogs on this level or higher. 

All of my dogs are hunted over...you will not shoot over my dog.


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## macondaly (Jun 4, 2013)

Woods Savvy said:


> I would love to hear your sales pitch on how you sale a dog for over 20k thats never been shot over is it ribbons or what



Actually it's simple but not easy. Put twenty derby points (ribbons)on him and go win one more derby around Thomasville. You beat the guys that put on those trials and you can sell a dog for over 
$20,000 and not shoot "over" him. He will have to have a lot of birds shot "for" him to do this though. 

As for the quail analogy, that's bull. If you are shooting a quail under hat bill high, you get a warning and then an early ride back to the lodge for the second offense. By the time a quail that is at 20 yards and over your head unless you miss 6ft low your shot is on a different plane from the dog. Shooting a cripple on the water with a dog swimming in the water puts your pattern on the same plane as the dog. THERE IS NO LEGITIMATE REASON TO SHOOT ON THE SAME PLANE WITH ANYTHING YOU DON'T PLAN TO KILL!  Just like when I guide quail hunts, shoot on plane with my dog crippled duck or not and a short hunt is the MINIMUM penalty.

I'm not surprised by this attitude though. You would be amazed at the stupid shots I've seen for a released quail.


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## clent586 (Jun 4, 2013)

To the original post. Dog brings first bird back and I would never pull him off to get a cripple. It's not that I don't care about cripples getting away, but I don't want to go putting a bad habit in a dog switching on birds that are "down" in his book. 

Cripples get shot when dog is in the clear or either someone goes and gets it........but then again, you may have to go find the guy who went looking for the cripple after he has been gone for 2 hours and walked through every hole in lower.......

Just from reading these posts, I think some of these conversations have gotten misinterpreted by mistake. Definitions and jargon getting mixed up. I hunted with and around Wood Savvy all this season just about and he never has put anyone or any dogs in danger or even close. I believe I even heard him tell a fella one morning that if his dog breaks, he would ask him to put the dog up so it would not get hurt. That's where I think there is the communication breakdown in the thread. 

I understand totally about watching the dog. My dog ain't worth the leather on his collar put I would be devastated and - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - if he got hit with a single pellet. 

Just my $.02...........Blaine, your still my hero


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## bander_TC50 (Jun 5, 2013)

so joe, just for my information. When people are in the blind with you, your dog is not sent until the shooting stops, and when his is in the water nobody shoots untill he is back in the blind. and i agree with you no duck is worth hurting my dog.


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## king killer delete (Jun 5, 2013)

Its one thing to shoot at a flying duck and another to shot at a cripple that a dog is in hot pursuit swiming right behind the bird. In a hunting situation I would have my dog retreive the first bird and when he was out of the line of fire  I would work on the cripple. Allot of this goes to training and I am not talking about the dog. What we are talking about is safe hunting. That goes for you and all of your hunting partners, human and K9. I know of a situation where a  10,000 dollar hunting dog was saved by his dog vest. No one here wants to darken the door of a vets office or for that matter doctors office to have steel shot removed. That being said I unders where Joe is comming from and where Woods is comming from. Each situation is different and requires good look and a front end talk about safety. This is what we are going to do and this is how its gona go down. We may shoot all cripples before a dog is ever sent. we may shot cripples as long as the cripple is in one direction and the dog is retreiveing in another direction at a 180 degree angle from the other. All this must be talked about up front.  Good common sense goes along way to a safe hunt. Its your dog and you know how you hunt. Safe hunting is up to you and your human hunting partners. You have an obligation to protect the young hunters with you and your dogs that are hunting with you. This goes to my point with allot of young hunters . It aint about killin its about hunting and how you do it will affect or sport in the comming years. Good Luck , Be safe and use your head for something othe than a hat rack.


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## Joe Overby (Jun 5, 2013)

bander_TC50 said:


> so joe, just for my information. When people are in the blind with you, your dog is not sent until the shooting stops, and when his is in the water nobody shoots untill he is back in the blind. and i agree with you no duck is worth hurting my dog.



That is correct. I call ALL the shots. It is too easy to wait and sluice a cripple after rover has completed a retrieve and is safely in the blind.


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## ThunderRoad (Jun 5, 2013)

clent586 said:


> To the original post. Dog brings first bird back and I would never pull him off to get a cripple. It's not that I don't care about cripples getting away, but I don't want to go putting a bad habit in a dog switching on birds that are "down" in his book.
> 
> Cripples get shot when dog is in the clear or either someone goes and gets it........but then again, you may have to go find the guy who went looking for the cripple after he has been gone for 2 hours and walked through every hole in lower.......
> 
> ...



Savvy let us hunt my dog for a few days and was always careful. He told me to not bring him if he wasnt quiet and steady....and black 

Bottom line, Savvy AND Joe both know their stuff and I know yall are both safe hunters around dogs.


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## bander_TC50 (Jun 5, 2013)

killer,

 the reason i asked is i have had my dog on a in the past to pick up a passing wood duck that was killed, as soon as my dog got to the bird probably 100 ringnecks just appeared outta no where and tried to land in our spread, some of them actually hit the water next to max, of course they flew off as soon as their buts got wet. no one fired a shot because we had agreed that if the dog was in the water nobody shoots.

of course evryone was laughing at max cause he was kinda confused about the whole thing with the ducks trying to land all around him. i couldnt believe that they came in like that.

 but in hind site we could have shot several birds at no risk to the dog. asuming no one tried to water swat a bird. that day i drew the line at shooting with him in the water. next time ill probably let shot fly if the birds are overhead. but then again if i have someone who is alittle too excited about hunting with me i dont want to end up with a shot dog. so i guess it just depends on the situation. just wondering how others handle the situation

at the end of the day though i would much rather have my dog than a dead duck any day.


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## bander_TC50 (Jun 5, 2013)

thanks joe i think i will continue to err on the side of caution.


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## puddlehunter (Jun 5, 2013)

I think for ethical reasons that it would be beneficial to have trained the dog to drop a retrieve and then cast them out after a cripple.  Especially in an instance where the dog has just picked up the dead duck an the time it would take it to return to the blind would be extended.  To me that just makes good hunting sense.  I do not think that it would be detrimental to the dog if the dog was trained to do this.  If you are training your dogs to win ribbons then this would be out of the question.  

To be fully consistent with the dogs training, if trained for competition,hunt tests, ribbons etc.  you should try to keep every retrieve in when really hunting in line with the same things you are teaching it for the tests.  Yes some dogs can figure out the difference but the best way to have a dog not develop a bad habit is to never let them do it in the first place.  Just my 1 cent worth


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## ThunderRoad (Jun 5, 2013)

puddlehunter said:


> I think for ethical reasons that it would be beneficial to have trained the dog to drop a retrieve and then cast them out after a cripple.  Especially in an instance where the dog has just picked up the dead duck an the time it would take it to return to the blind would be extended.  To me that just makes good hunting sense.  I do not think that it would be detrimental to the dog if the dog was trained to do this.  If you are training your dogs to win ribbons then this would be out of the question.
> 
> To be fully consistent with the dogs training, if trained for competition,hunt tests, ribbons etc.  you should try to keep every retrieve in when really hunting in line with the same things you are teaching it for the tests.  Yes some dogs can figure out the difference but the best way to have a dog not develop a bad habit is to never let them do it in the first place.  Just my 1 cent worth



This has nothing to do with ribbons or meat dogs. I DO NOT WANT MY DOG SWITCHING FOR ANY REASON! PERIOD. 

I want my dog completing the retrieve that I send him on, THEN upon returning and delivering to hand, send him on the next bird. IF you have a cripple that you think is going to get away, SWAT IT BEFORE SENDING THE DOG. Then send Fido to go get them in any order you want. I mean yall act like these GA dogs are out there in the Bering sea fetchin up crippled king eiders.


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## puddlehunter (Jun 5, 2013)

ThunderRoad said:


> This has nothing to do with ribbons or meat dogs. I DO NOT WANT MY DOG SWITCHING FOR ANY REASON! PERIOD.
> 
> I want my dog completing the retrieve that I send him on, THEN upon returning and delivering to hand, send him on the next bird. IF you have a cripple that you think is going to get away, SWAT IT BEFORE SENDING THE DOG. Then send Fido to go get them in any order you want. I mean yall act like these GA dogs are out there in the Bering sea fetchin up crippled king eiders.



I don't think there is  right or wrong and wasn't saying there was regarding hunting.  Just preference


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## nhancedsvt (Jun 5, 2013)

puddlehunter said:


> I think for ethical reasons that it would be beneficial to have trained the dog to drop a retrieve and then cast them out after a cripple.



Really? I can't think of any reason why that would be beneficial.


puddlehunter said:


> To me that just makes good hunting sense.



Not really.



puddlehunter said:


> I do not think that it would be detrimental to the dog if the dog was trained to do this.  If you are training your dogs to win ribbons then this would be out of the question.



Yes it would. Why do you assume there is a difference in training between hunting dogs and test dogs?



puddlehunter said:


> Yes some dogs can figure out the difference but the best way to have a dog not develop a bad habit is to never let them do it in the first place.  Just my 1 cent worth



By teaching the dog to drop the bird you are allowing them to do it and creating bad habits. That's like teaching your kid the to shout profanity at the TV during football games, but only expecting him to do it when you tell him to while watching TV. It just doesn't work that way.



puddlehunter said:


> I don't think there is  right or wrong and wasn't saying there was regarding hunting.  Just preference



Yes there is. Most everybody in this thread is right and you're wrong.


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2013)

nhanced, you aren't quite comprehending this are you?? Everything you spouted off at in the above post makes you look exactly like you've never hunted a day in your life.
1. Yes, ethical reasons is a legit reason. Look up ethics in the dictionary.
2. Yes again. Afterall we are duckhunting/killing. It's ethical to pick up every duck!!
3. Even the guys on here who have the most ribbons will tell you there is a difference. 
4. Are you comparing "your" kids to dogs?? Mine are a little smarter.
5. Not hardly. You sorta removed all doubt on that one. 

Hope your better at waterfowl hunting than advice giving.


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## ryano (Jun 5, 2013)




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## nhancedsvt (Jun 5, 2013)

Mark K said:


> nhanced, you aren't quite comprehending this are you?? Everything you spouted off at in the above post makes you look exactly like you've never hunted a day in your life.
> 1. Yes, ethical reasons is a legit reason. Look up ethics in the dictionary.
> 2. Yes again. Afterall we are duckhunting/killing. It's ethical to pick up every duck!!
> 3. Even the guys on here who have the most ribbons will tell you there is a difference.
> ...



1. Why is it unethical to train your dog properly? Teaching them to drop ducks to pick up other ducks will lead to them doing it down the road when you don't want them to and you losing ducks. It's not IF it will screw them up, it is WHEN.
2. See above.
3. Most guys I know that seriously train, train to a standard. That standard is upheld whether hunting or testing.
4. Nope not at all, it's called a metaphor. Look up metaphors in the dictionary. Also may want to look up the proper use of you're/your.
5. Funny, this coming from the guy who is giving advice that directly contradicts PROFESSIONAL dog trainers and some dang good ones too.

For what it's worth, my dog doesn't do this and I won't train for it. I take my advice from some real good dog trainers, not internet heroes.


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## JamesG (Jun 5, 2013)

Mark K said:


> nhanced, you aren't quite comprehending this are you?? Everything you spouted off at in the above post makes you look exactly like you've never hunted a day in your life.
> 1. Yes, ethical reasons is a legit reason. Look up ethics in the dictionary.
> 2. Yes again. Afterall we are duckhunting/killing. It's ethical to pick up every duck!!
> 3. Even the guys on here who have the most ribbons will tell you there is a difference.
> ...



He only knows what Nitro taught him


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## ThunderRoad (Jun 5, 2013)

I am just glad to see everybody back on here contributing to such a great forum for waterfowlers! It's nice to see everybody getting along so well.


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## nhancedsvt (Jun 5, 2013)

JamesG said:


> He only knows what Nitro taught him



I heart Nitro


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## ThunderRoad (Jun 5, 2013)

Is it unethical to kill hens? What about taking a band off a duck when your dog brings it back without telling anybody? Using full beers as decoy weights?


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2013)

Huh???? I think you need to start at the beginning and read through s l o w l y...this is about hunting. But let's start again:
1. The ethics comes into play on the duck retrieving, not how great your dog is.
2. Yes. Good hunting sense is to retrieve every duck/goose shot.
3. I'll pose the same question to you. How many cripples are in hunt test? How do you send your dog on a cripple that you can't handle to?? Do you send your dog?? And how do you trian for that "standard" since your standards are the same for hunting and testing?
4.Well pick a "metaphor" that actually relates.
5. No where in this thread have I given advice. Show me...Read back through again. 
And I believe there are some good trainers on this site. The only internet heroes are one's that talk but can't back it up.


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2013)

Nitro taught nhanced????


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2013)

I like nhanced little quote at the bottom. So how many turkeys did you kill this year??


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2013)

> Is it unethical to kill hens? What about taking a band off a duck when your dog brings it back without telling anybody? Using full beers as decoy weights?



1. Only if a mallard, and only in Arkansas.
2. Teach me that trick without cutting the dang foot off please!!
3. Why waste beer??


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## ThunderRoad (Jun 5, 2013)

Mark K said:


> 1. Only if a mallard, and only in Arkansas.
> 2. Teach me that trick without cutting the dang foot off please!!
> 3. Why waste beer??



1. Correct, unless youre hung over. then anything flying is fair game
2. Even seen somebody pop the top on a bottle with their teeth? Nuff said. 
3. Drink upon wrapping decoys up after hunt...ice cold


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## puddlehunter (Jun 5, 2013)

So with the above theory that if you train your dog to drop a bird on command and go after another bird that you will ruin them and cause bad habits...you are also saying that training your dog to return to the blind while attempting a retrieve is also teaching a bad habit that you cannot control and you should not teach that skill either?


I give example

Bird hits water, dog is sent, while dog is swimming you observe alligator or other hazard moving towards dog, dog is called off of retrieve and returns to blind.  Very useful in some situations and does not ruin dog.  It's basically training the dog in the same way to drop a dead duck and retrieve a cripple.  Basically the same as teaching them to leave one alone and go after another..etc.

Is it part of a whizz bang training program, probably not, could it be useful, maybe..maybe not.  Would it cause a problem with a hunting dog, probably not..It is not something that would need to be used all the time.  For that reason alone I am not sure I would take the time to train it, but I did see where it could be useful.

Is training a dog different for hunting and competition no, heck dog training is dog training no matter what dog you are dealing with or what you are trying to teach it.


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## nhancedsvt (Jun 5, 2013)

Mark K said:


> Huh???? I think you need to start at the beginning and read through s l o w l y...this is about hunting. But let's start again:
> 1. The ethics comes into play on the duck retrieving, not how great your dog is.
> 2. Yes. Good hunting sense is to retrieve every duck/goose shot.
> 3. I'll pose the same question to you. How many cripples are in hunt test? How do you send your dog on a cripple that you can't handle to?? Do you send your dog?? And how do you trian for that "standard" since your standards are the same for hunting and testing?
> ...



Meh, I'm bored. Getting ducktards riled up is about as easy as turning the computer on. Lunch break is over, back to trying to be productive.


Mark K said:


> Nitro taught nhanced????



Yep, everything I know.


Mark K said:


> I like nhanced little quote at the bottom. So how many turkeys did you kill this year??



Touche


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2013)

Thanks for not responding, I have got to get some work done. 

Say tomorrow about 9ish we can start over..


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2013)

Thunderhead, you have some dang strong teeth!!


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## king killer delete (Jun 5, 2013)

*I am like Joe*



bander_TC50 said:


> killer,
> 
> the reason i asked is i have had my dog on a in the past to pick up a passing wood duck that was killed, as soon as my dog got to the bird probably 100 ringnecks just appeared outta no where and tried to land in our spread, some of them actually hit the water next to max, of course they flew off as soon as their buts got wet. no one fired a shot because we had agreed that if the dog was in the water nobody shoots.
> 
> ...


 I will not shot a cripple when I have a dog in the water. I am very careful when I hunt about areas that people shot because I hunt out of a boat. Now  a well trained dog is going to return with the bird he picks up first and he will deliver it to hand. Then he should go for his next retreive. If you run hunt test or if you run Fld trials your dog is  trained this way or you will not play.  Now what you do hunting is up to you But Killer is not going to have you shooting when my dog or for that matter your dog is in the water. Allot of schools of thought on this matter. That is what killer is going to do.


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## bkl021475 (Jun 5, 2013)

Do you train Silver Labs the same way?


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## Turkey Trax (Jun 5, 2013)

why yall fussing so much? 

i think we can all agree.
dont shoot close to a dog. 
some dont care if their dog switches.
some do care.
and we all want to retrieve every duck we shoot.


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## bander_TC50 (Jun 5, 2013)

Mark K said:


> I like nhanced little quote at the bottom. So how many turkeys did you kill this year??



so how many more turns can this thread take???


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## nhancedsvt (Jun 5, 2013)

bkl021475 said:


> Do you train Silver Labs the same way?



Probably about the same as you would train a Boykin


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## bkl021475 (Jun 5, 2013)

nhancedsvt said:


> Probably about the same as you would train a Boykin



The Boykins of the world are affend!


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## vrooom (Jun 5, 2013)

I don't want my dog switching. Why would I undo months of properly force fetching a dog so that once in a blue moon he will switch for the cripple?  What if the cripple is in his mouth and he swims by a DRT duck?  He knows he holds what he's got in his mouf until I take it from him. 

Ever hunted with a dog that after 4-5 ducks are shot out of a group just swims up to each of them separately trying to figure out which one to grab first?  I have. It sucks.


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## nhancedsvt (Jun 5, 2013)

vrooom said:


> I don't want my dog switching. Why would I undo months of properly force fetching a dog so that once in a blue moon he will switch for the cripple?  What if the cripple is in his mouth and he swims by a DRT duck?  He knows he holds what he's got in his mouf until I take it from him.
> 
> Ever hunted with a dog that after 4-5 ducks are shot out of a group just swims up to each of them separately trying to figure out which one to grab first?  I have. It sucks.



Ethics


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2013)

> Do you train Silver Labs the same way?



Silver labs are already born with the switch trait. They don't have to be trained on it.


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## ngaduck (Jun 5, 2013)

Turkey Trax said:


> why yall fussing so much?
> 
> i think we can all agree.
> dont shoot close to a dog.
> ...



And even some we don't shoot....

Oh yeah, and shut up Scramage!


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## Woods Savvy (Jun 5, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> That is correct. I call ALL the shots. It is too easy to wait and sluice a cripple after rover has completed a retrieve and is safely in the blind.



The most seasoned HUNTERS should call the shots.


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## Mark K (Jun 5, 2013)

Only Finished hunters should call the shots!


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## nhancedsvt (Jun 5, 2013)

ngaduck said:


> And even some we don't shoot....
> 
> Oh yeah, and shut up Scramage!



I heart you Piggypal


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## T Tolbert (Jun 5, 2013)

Mark K said:


> Only Finished hunters should call the shots!



Do you have to be shot over to be a finished hunter and should said finished hunter switch which bird he shoots first


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## Joe Overby (Jun 5, 2013)

Woods Savvy said:


> The most seasoned HUNTERS should call the shots.



Apparently you didn't read post #39. My dog, my rules...therefore I call the shots. You don't like it??? It'll feel better when it stops hurting...


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## ButcherTony (Jun 5, 2013)

wow


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## Turkey Trax (Jun 5, 2013)

Settle down.


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## puddlehunter (Jun 5, 2013)

I agree that shooting a cripple on the water is not the best idea with a dog swimming in the water, I guess it depends on the location of the cripple and the trajectory etc.

Now as far as birds coming into the spread, that shot can be taken with no risk to the dog if care is taken on the trajectory as well.


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## puddlehunter (Jun 5, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> That is correct. I call ALL the shots. It is too easy to wait and sluice a cripple after rover has completed a retrieve and is safely in the blind.



I agree that the guy handling the dog should have the say what does and doesent go on when their dogs are doing the work.


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## Woods Savvy (Jun 5, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> Apparently you didn't read post #39. My dog, my rules...therefore I call the shots. You don't like it??? It'll feel better when it stops hurting...



As thin as your skin is you would never make it in the boat.


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## Joe Overby (Jun 5, 2013)

Woods Savvy said:


> As thin as your skin is you would never make it in the boat.



I dont have thin skin...i just dont have any tolerance for ignorance.


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## RUTTNBUCK (Jun 5, 2013)

Turkey Trax said:


> Settle down.


I agree.


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## Turkey Trax (Jun 5, 2013)

RUTTNBUCK said:


> I agree.



im here for yall buddy. 

just let me know who you need me to get to calm down.


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## labradoodle (Jun 5, 2013)

I cant believe yall cripple ducks. unethical


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## RUTTNBUCK (Jun 5, 2013)

Turkey Trax said:


> im here for yall buddy.
> 
> just let me know who you need me to get to calm down.


Good to see you taking the high road on this one!!............You have come a long way Grasshopper!!


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## Turkey Trax (Jun 5, 2013)

RUTTNBUCK said:


> Good to see you taking the high road on this one!!............You have come a long way Grasshopper!!



hey, if one of the other mods hadn't told me you some young kid in his early 20's i wouldn't have ever called you "young fella" that day!


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## RUTTNBUCK (Jun 5, 2013)

Turkey Trax said:


> hey, if one of the other mods hadn't told me you some young kid in his early 20's i wouldn't have ever called you "young fella" that day!


........All water under the bridge!!


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## 91xjgawes (Jun 5, 2013)

Turkey Trax said:


> why yall fussing so much?
> 
> i think we can all agree.
> dont shoot close to a dog.
> ...



Aint it...


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## Woods Savvy (Jun 6, 2013)

If one hen mallard comes in the hole can i call the shot then?


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## Folsom (Jun 6, 2013)

Woods Savvy said:


> If one hen mallard comes in the hole can i call the shot then?



If she is wearing jewelry and or if it has been a slow day!


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## Arrow3 (Jun 6, 2013)

Turkey Trax said:


> Settle down.





RUTTNBUCK said:


> I agree.



Turkey Trax for moderator!


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## king killer delete (Jun 6, 2013)

*You can not argue*



Woods Savvy said:


> If one hen mallard comes in the hole can i call the shot then?


With this.


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## Turkey Trax (Jun 6, 2013)

Arrow3 said:


> Turkey Trax for moderator!



I hear talk that I'm next in line to moderate the duck or dog forum. Nicodemus just needs to finalize the deal.


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## labradoodle (Jun 9, 2013)

ah ha.


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## bander_TC50 (Jun 9, 2013)

so does that guy get a pass for killing that duck when the dog broke and tried to pick up the duck that landed right in front of them? guess its a prime example of why you should not hunt over a un-finished dog.


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## vrooom (Jun 10, 2013)

Apparently anybody can call ducks up there


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