# Fast arrows vs heavy arrows for hunting



## bownutz (May 12, 2011)

i shoot a beeman 340 at 9.3gpi. They are quieter than the "speed" arrows I used to shoot (6gpi). My bow is around 315 ibo and mines shooting 290's. Nothing but d loop on string. This seems to be a better hunting setup than maxing out the speed.  Penetration is measured in inches of dirt! What are your thoughts?


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## lungbuster123 (May 12, 2011)

Any arrow 350 grains+ behind a good sharp broadhead out of a 55+ pound bow, and placed in the vital's should be in the dirt on the other side.


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## wilber85 (May 12, 2011)

Yep they will all kill a deer, its just preference!

I like the speed for flatter trajectory, which means less room for error when judging distances, but some prefer penetration.


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## drippin' rock (May 12, 2011)

Heavier is better, imo.


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## storeman (May 12, 2011)

I want to see a dust cloud after my pass through.


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## bownutz (May 13, 2011)

What about a shoulder hit? I hunt hogs as well.


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## XJfire75 (May 13, 2011)

I like good weight and speed. 

I'm shootin HT-1s there about 420grs at 28.5"/67lbs should put it at 290. That's smokin for the heavy of an arrow. I forsee a lot of passthrus with some Reapers or whatever head I wanna shoot. 


I used to shoot a lighter 360gr arrow and it did fine but I wanna knock em off their feets!


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## rjcruiser (May 13, 2011)

I went to a heavier arrow this past season and liked it.  Bow is a little quieter and the penetration is better.

In the end, I think it is mostly preference and shoot what you feel confident with.


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## pasinthrough (May 13, 2011)

I guess I'm in the middle of the road.  415 grains or so at the 280 fps range.  It's been working for 6 or 7 years now, so I don't think I'm gonna change anytime soon.


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## Buckhead (May 13, 2011)

I go for speed, so my arrows are on the light side.  Probably trading a bit of penetration for the trajectory, but not much.  Certainly worth it to me.  In my current set up, my GX will push a 340 grain arrow 325 fps or so.  That equates to 80 foot pounds of energy.  Pass thrus are not a problem.  No noise issues, can't see a reason to change.


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## j870sm (May 16, 2011)

I'm shooting an arrow on the heavy side, a little over 450grs.  I have found for hogs that these work better, a heavy arrow will out penetrate a light arrow every time.  Also, for when shots don't go as planned the heavier arrow will give you an edge on bone.


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## 7Mag Hunter (May 16, 2011)

j870sm said:


> I'm shooting an arrow on the heavy side, a little over 450grs.  I have found for hogs that these work better, a heavy arrow will out penetrate a light arrow every time.  Also, for when shots don't go as planned the heavier arrow will give you an edge on bone.




One of the Archery magazines did an test on this subject
a couple of years ago, and concluded a heavier arrow delivered 
more kinetic energy to the target than a light arrow, and thus
better (more) penetration....


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## thompsonsz71 (May 16, 2011)

im shooting a lighter arrow but it will penetrate just as good as some of the heavier arrows because of its size....

vaps are some penetrating machines.... 352 grains out of a elite pure... it will be moving right on along.... i realy think the small diameter helps these arrows out alot on the penetration side of things and they just shoot good!


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## DeepweR (May 16, 2011)

i think it depends on the BH u use also. expandables require heavier arrows imo.


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## gobblehunter (May 16, 2011)

Remember - the KE formula uses velocity (which is measured at the BOW). A more useful tool relating to penetration, would be to measure and compare down range MOMENTUM, with all factors being equal. The greater the mass (arrow wt.), the more energy is retained - downrange (at any distance). It would be like throwing a ping pong ball and a golf ball into a snow bank from 40 yards at the same speed. Which one will penetrate deeper into the snow??? Personally, I would concern myself more with accuracy and shot placement than with arrow speed, KE, etc. Even a "slow" arrow tipped with a sharp rock, accurately placed in the vitals, will pass through most game animals effectively.


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## Dead Eye Eddy (May 16, 2011)

I'm shooting 29.5" 2216 aluminum arrow with 130 grain fixed blade broadheads.  I haven't weighed an arrow, but I'd guess they're 550-600 grains each.  I went light with mechanicals a few years back and lost a huge 4-pt buck due to poor penetration.  I got back all but the broadhead and 2.5 inches of the arrow when he snapped it off on a tree.  I went back to my old arrows, and I've gotten complete pass through on every deer I've shot since then.


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## Bow Only (May 17, 2011)

thompsonsz71 said:


> im shooting a lighter arrow but it will penetrate just as good as some of the heavier arrows because of its size....
> 
> vaps are some penetrating machines.... 352 grains out of a elite pure... it will be moving right on along....* i realy think the small diameter helps these arrows out alot on the penetration side of things *and they just shoot good!


This


gobblehunter said:


> Remember - the KE formula uses velocity (which is measured at the BOW). A more useful tool relating to penetration, would be to measure and compare *down range MOMENTUM*, with all factors being equal. The greater the mass (arrow wt.), the more energy is retained - downrange (at any distance). It would be like throwing a ping pong ball and a golf ball into a snow bank from 40 yards at the same speed. Which one will penetrate deeper into the snow??? Personally, I would concern myself more with accuracy and shot placement than with arrow speed, KE, etc. Even a "slow" arrow tipped with a sharp rock, accurately placed in the vitals, will pass through most game animals effectively.


And this!

The same applies to feathers vs vanes.  Watch a feather bleed KE at a distance.


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## j870sm (May 17, 2011)

gobblehunter said:


> Remember - the KE formula uses velocity (which is measured at the BOW). A more useful tool relating to penetration, would be to measure and compare down range MOMENTUM, with all factors being equal. The greater the mass (arrow wt.), the more energy is retained - downrange (at any distance). It would be like throwing a ping pong ball and a golf ball into a snow bank from 40 yards at the same speed. Which one will penetrate deeper into the snow???



I agree with this 100%.  Lighter arrows shed momentum much faster than heavy arrows.  My bow is fast enough that I can afford to lose a few FPS for the benefit of a heavier arrow.  What I try to do is reach a happy medium of weight and speed so my trajectory out to 40yds is still pretty flat.


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## slghtr2000 (May 17, 2011)

My arrows are 435 grains about and I think it was chrono at 310 at als after George got it in time. I have had nothing but pass throughs and into the dirt on other side. One was about 3 inches into a root through a doe at 37 yards. I like the way a heavier arrow still smacks at farther yards. It seems like my arrow is deeper in my target when I shoot 50 yards than when I shoot at 20


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## bownutz (May 17, 2011)

I think the retained energy over a distance makes heavy arrows the obvious king of penetration.


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## kevincox (May 17, 2011)

Now that I use a rangefinder I go for a heavier arrow. I shoot about 411 grains


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## Booner Killa (May 18, 2011)

I'd much rather have a heavy arrow than a fast arrow.  Like Kevin said, a rangefinder makes speed a non-factor when you know distances.


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## storeman (May 19, 2011)

Dead Eye Eddy said:


> I'm shooting 29.5" 2216 aluminum arrow with 130 grain fixed blade broadheads.  I haven't weighed an arrow, but I'd guess they're 550-600 grains each.  I went light with mechanicals a few years back and lost a huge 4-pt buck due to poor penetration.  I got back all but the broadhead and 2.5 inches of the arrow when he snapped it off on a tree.  I went back to my old arrows, and I've gotten complete pass through on every deer I've shot since then.



I agree 100%. Lost a good deer a few years back over the same reason. Switched back to a 2216 aluminum arrow with a good rangefinder and every deer has been a pass through. I am only shooting 265ft. per second but who cares. At 35 yds. I can do 1 inch groups all day long so for me speed means nothing.  Like I said in my earlier post, I want to see a dust cloud after my pass through.


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## BigCountry19 (May 20, 2011)

I'm shooting 440 gr arrows, 30" draw, 72#, and I thought my arrow was on the lite side of the equation.  I still shoot quiet, flat, and with complete pass-thru's on large Illinois deer.  Oh yeah, over 310 fps also.


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## alligood729 (May 20, 2011)

BigCountry19 said:


> I'm shooting 440 gr arrows, 30" draw, 72#, and I thought my arrow was on the lite side of the equation.  I still shoot quiet, flat, and with complete pass-thru's on large Illinois deer.  Oh yeah, over 310 fps also.



yeah, but at 72# and a 30" draw, you could shoot a half inch pvc pipe thru a deer....lol That's a killer setup.

I'm only pulling 58lbs shooting a 360 gr arrow at 290fps, more than enough to slip right on thru a deer...


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## livetohunt (May 20, 2011)

If you do the KE test on a heavier, slower shooting arrow and one on a lighter, faster shooting arrow you will be surprised at the results..

I switched over to the lighter VAP's this year..


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## j870sm (May 20, 2011)

livetohunt said:


> If you do the KE test on a heavier, slower shooting arrow and one on a lighter, faster shooting arrow you will be surprised at the results..
> 
> I switched over to the lighter VAP's this year..



KE is one thing now do the math on Momentum.


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## Bow Only (May 21, 2011)

j870sm said:


> KE is one thing now do the math on Momentum.



Doing the math is one thing, the real world is another.  I have both heavy and light arrows in different set ups and penetration boils down to one thing.................friction.  Friction stops an arrow from penetrating and that friction can be affected by numerous things.  Arrow surface area, arrow spine and bow poundage, broadhead sharpness, broadhead cutting surface area, these are just a few of the varibles that come into play dealing with penetration.  Having your arrow hit exactly perpendicular to the target is even more important, so having your bow properly tuned is part of the equation.  It's very simple, and yet it's very complicated.


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## alligood729 (May 21, 2011)

Bow Only said:


> Doing the math is one thing, the real world is another.  I have both heavy and light arrows in different set ups and penetration boils down to one thing.................friction.  Friction stops an arrow from penetrating and that friction can be affected by numerous things.  Arrow surface area, arrow spine and bow poundage, broadhead sharpness, broadhead cutting surface area, these are just a few of the varibles that come into play dealing with penetration.  Having your arrow hit exactly perpendicular to the target is even more important, so having your bow properly tuned is part of the equation.  It's very simple, and yet it's very complicated.



Exactly.....


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## gobblehunter (May 21, 2011)

All of the arguments for/or against a certain point of view, each have their own merits, and are fun for us redneck physicists to ponder. Although I lean toward the momentum argument for simple arrow comparison, because the KE formula uses velocity measured at the bow, whereas momentum doesn't. Either way, the real world answer is - there is no single answer, because there are way too many variables that come in to play in any given hunting situation, and no two are alike. If there were a single answer, somebody with more technical training than most of us, would have already proven it. It is up to each individual to find the right combination that works for them. I also don't think that there is an exact # that you can pin your theory on. I believe each varialble has an optimum "*range*" that intersects with the other variables (E, KE, work, resistance, elasticity, density, etc), and when we *stumble* upon this intersection, we hit the "sweet spot" and we end up acheiving our desired result. If anyone on this forum can prove their argument one way or another, with a single mathematical formula, please post it. You can't just say you did it, you must post your formula and show the numbers. Everyone's waiting.........


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## riskyb (May 30, 2011)

my arrows range between 370 to 420 total weight


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## E Z shot (May 30, 2011)

Victory VAPS are the best arrows for penetration, arrow flight on windy days, and speed. The only problem is they dont fit my quiver because they are small in diameter. I am going to get a new quiver for them. Try them.


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## ClydeWigg3 (May 30, 2011)

How about this completely scientific experiment I performed last year?  I had been shooting a "small diameter arrow" as advertised from a big name company, then I switched to a heavy CX Piledriver.  Shooting the Piledrivers and the lighter arrows into a 12" square styrofoam block, I averaged about 12" more penetration with the Piledrivers than I did with the lighter arrows.  I was shooting 26.25" arrows in a 60# bow at 20 yards.  I'm sold on the heavier arrow.


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## gobblehunter (May 30, 2011)

What was your velocity and weight of each arrow (if you happen to know)??


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## HAPPY DAD (May 30, 2011)

Bow Only said:


> Doing the math is one thing, the real world is another.  I have both heavy and light arrows in different set ups and penetration boils down to one thing.................friction.  Friction stops an arrow from penetrating and that friction can be affected by numerous things.  Arrow surface area, arrow spine and bow poundage, broadhead sharpness, broadhead cutting surface area, these are just a few of the varibles that come into play dealing with penetration.  Having your arrow hit exactly perpendicular to the target is even more important, so having your bow properly tuned is part of the equation.  It's very simple, and yet it's very complicated.





This is the best and most accurate post on this thread.
Spot on my man.

You would be surprised how LITTLE real world difference you see in a 380 grain arrow and a 420 grain.....not what you would think.


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## ClydeWigg3 (May 30, 2011)

Yes, friction does have a lot to do with it, but the heavier arrow may punch through heavy cartlidge and bone when a lighter one wouldn't.  Would you rather I throw a brick at you or a ping pong ball.  A deer's bodily fluid certainly lubricates an arrow, there's no denying that.  However, my styrofoam test provides the same amount of friction on both arrows and got very different results.


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## Bow Only (May 31, 2011)

ClydeWigg3 said:


> Yes, friction does have a lot to do with it, but the heavier arrow may punch through heavy cartlidge and bone when a lighter one wouldn't.  Would you rather I throw a brick at you or a ping pong ball.  A deer's bodily fluid certainly lubricates an arrow, there's no denying that.  However, my styrofoam test provides the same amount of friction on both arrows and got very different results.



I would rather you throw the brick because I could dodge it.  

Your styrofoam test does not provide the same amount of friction for both arrows.  The surface area of each arrow is different as is their speed so the amount of friction produced is different.  Different KE's produce different amounts of friction.  The amount of oscillation of each arrow upon impact is different so arrow spine and bow poundage are variables.  If you will notice, I haven't argued one way or the other about which arrow penetrates better, I've only discussed the physics behind it.  IMO, a heavier arrow penetrates better yet in some of the tests I've done, a lighter yet smaller diameter arrow out penetrated a heavier arrow.  Start shooting 5 gallon buckets filled with sand and you'll get a good idea of what penetrates and what doesn't.  I know I was surprised.


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## pasinthrough (May 31, 2011)

Bow Only said:


> I would rather you throw the brick because I could dodge it.
> 
> Your styrofoam test does not provide the same amount of friction for both arrows. The surface area of each arrow is different as is their speed so the amount of friction produced is different. Different KE's produce different amounts of friction. The amount of oscillation of each arrow upon impact is different so arrow spine and bow poundage are variables. If you will notice, I haven't argued one way or the other about which arrow penetrates better, I've only discussed the physics behind it. IMO, a heavier arrow penetrates better yet in some of the tests I've done, a lighter yet smaller diameter arrow out penetrated a heavier arrow. Start shooting 5 gallon buckets filled with sand and you'll get a good idea of what penetrates and what doesn't. I know I was surprised.


 

But also, like you said earlier, broadhead design / cut and tissue mass & bone have different affects too.  Trial and error is what it takes until you find what works for you.  It took me many years to find a combo that I like.  Now that I've had it since 2006, I haven't changed a thing except my arrow wraps.

You just have too many arrow weight / spine / diameter / broadhead combinations to say with certainty that a particular weight will always do so and so.


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## CaptainCraig (May 31, 2011)

I shoot super lightweight small diameter arrows "Beeman Carbon Hunter" with 75 grain broadheads from an 85+ pound bow with an overdraw and I have never failed to get a complete pass-through.


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## MoonPie (May 31, 2011)

bownutz said:


> i shoot a beeman 340 at 9.3gpi.  What are your thoughts?



I shoot the exact same arrow bn. It's works fine for me so I aint gonna change things.


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## ClydeWigg3 (May 31, 2011)

Bow Only said:


> I would rather you throw the brick because I could dodge it.
> 
> Your styrofoam test does not provide the same amount of friction for both arrows.  The surface area of each arrow is different as is their speed so the amount of friction produced is different.  Different KE's produce different amounts of friction.  The amount of oscillation of each arrow upon impact is different so arrow spine and bow poundage are variables.  If you will notice, I haven't argued one way or the other about which arrow penetrates better, I've only discussed the physics behind it.  IMO, a heavier arrow penetrates better yet in some of the tests I've done, a lighter yet smaller diameter arrow out penetrated a heavier arrow.  Start shooting 5 gallon buckets filled with sand and you'll get a good idea of what penetrates and what doesn't.  I know I was surprised.




Good points.  I still prefer the heavier arrow at the ranges I'm shooting deer - 25 yards and under, usually inside of 15.  Those Piledrivers will bust through anything.


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## gsubo (Jun 1, 2011)

I just got my sweet shooting MQ1 that I had about ten years ago back from my dad who doesnt bowhunt anymore. When I chronographed it back then I was only shooting about 238 fps.  I killed about ten deer with that thing in 5 years back then..both with mechanical and fixed blade broadheads..and I never had a shot not pass through.  Killed several hogs with it as well and shot through every one of them as well.


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## Bow Only (Jun 1, 2011)

gsubo said:


> I just got my sweet shooting MQ1 that I had about ten years ago back from my dad who doesnt bowhunt anymore. When I chronographed it back then I was only shooting about 238 fps.  I killed about ten deer with that thing in 5 years back then..both with mechanical and fixed blade broadheads..and I never had a shot not pass through.  Killed several hogs with it as well and shot through every one of them as well.



I think what we're talking about is odd angle shots or even bad shots.  I've shot completely through several 275 lb deer, but they were perfect broadside shots.  I have never shot through a mature buck on a straight down shot where I had to take it from high to low and through the brisket or even through both shoulders on a mature buck.  Tim Knight has.  He's got an inch of draw length on me and the combo of his arrows tipped with Muzzy's gets very good penetration.  My bow is slower, my broadheads have a bigger cutting diameter, and his bow is probably tuned better than mine.  Every little thing adds up.  

Shooting does or smaller bucks is one thing, mature bucks and big hogs are in a league of their own.  Anyone who has them figured out is better than me.


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## gsubo (Jun 1, 2011)

Bow Only said:


> I think what we're talking about is odd angle shots or even bad shots.  I've shot completely through several 275 lb deer, but they were perfect broadside shots.  I have never shot through a mature buck on a straight down shot where I had to take it from high to low and through the brisket or even through both shoulders on a mature buck.  Tim Knight has.  He's got an inch of draw length on me and the combo of his arrows tipped with Muzzy's gets very good penetration.  My bow is slower, my broadheads have a bigger cutting diameter, and his bow is probably tuned better than mine.  Every little thing adds up.
> 
> Shooting does or smaller bucks is one thing, mature bucks and big hogs are in a league of their own.  Anyone who has them figured out is better than me.



Agreed..I think when you start talking big mature bucks and big hogs its always smart to be extra careful picking your shots.  I have had several deer over the last few years hold arrows for due to steep angles down through the shoulder..but they never toted em too far.  Its just all in what you prefer..you got guys shooting traditional bows at 160 fps with heavy aluminums and they're passing through hogs and deer more times than not.  The newer age compounds will shoot just about anything through most hogs and deer.


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## MoonPie (Jun 1, 2011)

gsubo said:


> I just got my sweet shooting MQ1


MQ1. Best bow Mathews ever made


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## CaptainCraig (Jun 2, 2011)

The main thing you need is confidence in your setup. People laugh at my bow. I bought it used in the mid 90s and it looks rough But if a deer comes within thirty yards of me, It might as well go lay down in the back of my truck.


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## Gadget (Jun 2, 2011)

Bow Only said:


> I think what we're talking about is odd angle shots or even bad shots.  I've shot completely through several 275 lb deer, but they were perfect broadside shots.  I have never shot through a mature buck on a straight down shot where I had to take it from high to low and through the brisket or even through both shoulders on a mature buck.  Tim Knight has.  He's got an inch of draw length on me and the combo of his arrows tipped with Muzzy's gets very good penetration.  My bow is slower, my broadheads have a bigger cutting diameter, and his bow is probably tuned better than mine.  Every little thing adds up.
> 
> Shooting does or smaller bucks is one thing, mature bucks and big hogs are in a league of their own.  Anyone who has them figured out is better than me.




Matt once you get elevated to Prostaff level 5 we can go ahead and set you up with a new Obsession bow which will penetrate from any angle........


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## pasinthrough (Jun 2, 2011)

Gadget said:


> Matt once you get elevated to Prostaff level 5 we can go ahead and set you up with a new Obsession bow which will penetrate from any angle........


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## alligood729 (Jun 2, 2011)

Gadget said:


> Matt once you get elevated to Prostaff level 5 we can go ahead and set you up with a new Obsession bow which will penetrate from any angle........



again...... I just hope Derik will let me shoot my Evo for the Pasinthrough Staff.....


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## pasinthrough (Jun 2, 2011)

alligood729 said:


> again...... I just hope Derik will let me shoot my Evo for the Pasinthrough Staff.....


 

I can work magic with a video editor!


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## lungbuster123 (Jun 2, 2011)

alligood729 said:


> again...... I just hope Derik will let me shoot my Evo for the Pasinthrough Staff.....



That's what im sayin when will Derik be putting together a Passinthrough staff and where can we get applications?


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## alligood729 (Jun 2, 2011)

pasinthrough said:


> I can work magic with a video editor!


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## Bow Only (Jun 3, 2011)

Gadget said:


> Matt once you get elevated to Prostaff level 5 we can go ahead and set you up with a new Obsession bow which will penetrate from any angle........



You are correct, I am a level 3 prostaffer but I did get a free Southern Woods and Water key chain.  It's a nice one too.


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## Taylor Co. (Jul 26, 2012)

I am going to agree with Matt(BowOnly) here. There are more variables than just heavy and light. Tune, Resistance on head and shaft. Speed and mass weight go hand in hand. Oscillation when striking. Front of Center is another that is often over looked. An arrow will follow the point. 
There is a school of thought that heavy is the way to go(too heavy). Then there is the light arrow speed crowd(too light). Somewhere in the middle is where we really all need to be.


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## Grey Man (Jul 26, 2012)

Given the choice between a heavy arrow and a light arrow, I wi choose a properly tuned bow shot with good form.


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## Flaustin1 (Jul 28, 2012)

I shoot a 560gr. arrow at 156(+or- a few fps) and they will blow through deer.  Just saying.


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## BIGHORN26 (Jul 29, 2012)

I'm shooting the fmj 340s out of an omen pro. I was skeptical at first giving up my speed but when I shot my morrel range bag at 40 yds and they went through the bag and stopped in the tree it was leaning against I was sold!!!


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