# The Oneness of the Godhead



## EverGreen1231 (Nov 4, 2014)

My Aunt (A Mormon) recently challenged me about Jesus being God incarnate. I, of course, responded with scripture; doing my best to quote verbatim. She started twisting things so that they might fit her chosen view.

I would like to "sharpen the sword" , if you will, about this particular subject. To this end, I feel it would be beneficial for me (and, possibly, others) to discuss this at some length.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 4, 2014)

I can explain the Unitarian view. Many here can explain the view of the trinity, Not sure if we have any "oneness". Not many JW's or mormons here. Knowing both sides of the arguments can be interesting.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 4, 2014)

Romans 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible/immortal God for an image in the form of corruptible/mortal man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.… This was written to Christians using pagan practices as an example. If God had become a man, I don't think the writer would have said this. [an image was made of stone or wood to represent a god elsewhere. When they bowed down to it, it was not the statue itself they worshipped but rather the so called god it represented. ]


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 4, 2014)

I'm not a oneness believer but I think the "Oneness" view is that God can be the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit but not all three at the same time. They believe he has to be one or the other, therefore the "oneness" of their belief.
They believe in only one God so therefore God can't be all three at the same time which would make him three separate Gods as they see it. They don't picture God being separated into three different identities  "at the same time."
They do strongly believe in God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 4, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not a oneness believer but I think the "Oneness" view is that God can be the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit but not all three at the same time. They believe he has to be one or the other, therefore the "oneness" of their belief.
> They believe in only one God so therefore God can't be all three at the same time which would make him three separate Gods as they see it. They don't picture God being separated into three different identities  "at the same time."
> They do strongly believe in God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


I have not looked into their belief, I have just assumed they believe that God's name is Jesus. Elementry assumption on my part.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 4, 2014)

This looks like an interesting report on the Oneness of God:

http://www.apostolic-voice.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/the-oneness-of-god.pdf


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## Israel (Nov 4, 2014)

"May they be one, even as you and I are one"


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 4, 2014)

I was reading up on Mormons. I'm getting conflicting info. They are so close to trinitarians. I may be wrong, but it seems that where Trins believe that God is F, S and HS, three coequal persons, Mormons believe that God manifest himself in three ways as F, S and HS. Somebody correct me if I have come to the wrong conclusion


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## Day trip (Nov 4, 2014)

The trinity is not 3 equal persons, it is 3 forms of one Being.  

God for us, we call Father
God along side us, we call Jesus Christ
God within us, we call the Holy Spirit

There is too much anthropomorphism or creating God in our own image out there.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 4, 2014)

Day trip said:


> The trinity is not 3 equal persons, it is 3 forms of one Being.
> 
> God for us, we call Father
> God along side us, we call Jesus Christ
> ...


Wrong. Your not trinitarian if you believe this. Closer to  a Mormon view. The trinitarian view is one God in three persons, three coequal persons. When they get to heaven, they expect to see both Father and Son..... but for whatever reason, most don't expect to see the person of the HS


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 4, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> I was reading up on Mormons. I'm getting conflicting info. They are so close to trinitarians. I may be wrong, but it seems that where Trins believe that God is F, S and HS, three coequal persons, Mormons believe that God manifest himself in three ways as F, S and HS. Somebody correct me if I have come to the wrong conclusion



I think it's kinda like the Grace only salvation vs grace plus works salvation. It's a grey area that overlaps, blends, etc. that sometimes people are debating differences when they actually might mostly see things the same but different. Grace is totally from God but dependent on Fruit from the Holy Spirit as proof.
Salvation is one such topic but so is God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. 
It does sound like Mormons believe more of a Oneness belief if your research is correct than Trinitarian.
Oneness believe that God manifest himself in three ways as F,S, & HS but because of his oneness he can't be all three at the same time. Trinitarians believe he manifest himself as all three at the same time. 

Strange that most believe my or your beliefs are heresy.
We can't all be right but does that mean some are wrong by a default belief? Does scripture demand that in order for salvation to be granted, one must believe that Jesus is more than our Savior? 
Grace is from God the Father. If one believes that God the Father loved the world so much that he sent is only Son to die for our sins, why is it so important to believe what part of the Father Jesus is other than his Son?
Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus died for our sins.
We could go on for years describing who God is and who Jesus is, but is either describing a false Gospel?
Is describing Jesus as a corruptible/mortal man  describing a false God?  Is describing Jesus as God a false Gospel?
I'm pretty sure Jesus made many statements as to whom he was and to whom his Father was. 
It's pretty easy for Oneness, Trinitarian, You, and Me to find verses defending who God is and who Jesus is.
Regardless of the differences and likenesses, there is only one God, and only one son of God by the name of Jesus.
There is also the spirit of God described by the name of The Holy Spirit.
I know in my heart who all three are and how they have manifested themselves to me.  It has been revealed to me.
I only understand it as revealed to me.
I think it's one of those things we try to over think and make into a deciding factor for salvation.
Let me remind you that salvation is from God.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 4, 2014)

Day trip said:


> The trinity is not 3 equal persons, it is 3 forms of one Being.
> 
> God for us, we call Father
> God along side us, we call Jesus Christ
> ...



Are you a Oneness believer? Do you believe God can be one or the other but not equally all three?
You are describing Oneness more than Trinitarian.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 4, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Are you a Oneness believer? Do you believe God can be one or the other but not equally all three?
> You are describing Oneness more than Trinitarian.


I may be wrong, I assumed he was trinitarian. Yet his view, if so, is incorrect


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 4, 2014)

Matthew 28:18-20:
18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.

Therefore adding verses  18-20 we see:

Jesus said "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth." and "I am with you always."

By whom was this authority given? I say by God's authority. God the one and only God who is the Father of Jesus.
The same authority given to the disciples.


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## Israel (Nov 5, 2014)

And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 
Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 
I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.


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## formula1 (Nov 5, 2014)

*Re:*



Israel said:


> And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
> Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
> That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
> And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
> I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.



Amen! Lord make us one with You!

Psalm 49
7 Truly no man can ransom another, or give to God the price of his life, 8 for the ransom of their life is costly and can never suffice


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 5, 2014)

Israel said:


> And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
> Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
> That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
> And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
> I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.



Amen, I in you and you in me. God in all of us. Jesus will be with us until the end. All power to almighty God.
We all pray and do the will of the Father. We are all his children and brothers to each other. Co-heirs to the Kingdom.
There is a lot written about this and becoming more like Jesus and to imitating God:

Ephesians 5:1
Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.


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## Day trip (Nov 5, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Are you a Oneness believer? Do you believe God can be one or the other but not equally all three?
> You are describing Oneness more than Trinitarian.



I can't say which box my belief would fit in.  You all may be more capable of categorizing it.  Ambiguity is a major part of spirituality.  Accepting that ambiguity is how we mature in our faith.   Open to repentance - the changing of our minds.  My revelation is that God is not grasped in such limited terms and that he is all and he is one at the same time.  We are taught that Jesus was with God from the beginning (first chapter of John) but the Holy Spirit was sent after the resurrection.  Was it there in the beginning? Yes.   In human terms it would be like potential energy.  A rock sitting on top of a slope, but when mankind was ready, the rock (holy Spirit) was set in motion to open our minds to God.  God in three persons, all one, all the same.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 5, 2014)

Day trip said:


> I can't say which box my belief would fit in.  You all may be more capable of categorizing it.  Ambiguity is a major part of spirituality.  Accepting that ambiguity is how we mature in our faith.   Open to repentance - the changing of our minds.  My revelation is that God is not grasped in such limited terms and that he is all and he is one at the same time.  We are taught that Jesus was with God from the beginning (first chapter of John) but the Holy Spirit was sent after the resurrection.  Was it there in the beginning? Yes.   In human terms it would be like potential energy.  A rock sitting on top of a slope, but when mankind was ready, the rock (holy Spirit) was set in motion to open our minds to God.  God in three persons, all one, all the same.



I like what you say about accepting  ambiguity being a part of maturity.

I would say you are Trinitarian if you believe God can be co-equal with Jesus and his Holy Spirit at the same time.
In other words can he exist as all three at the same time?

If you believe he can only be one or the other  but not all three at the same time, then you would be Oneness.


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## Day trip (Nov 5, 2014)

Of Jesus being God, incarnate, this is my intuition.  When Jesus was born, God did not become less than the sum of the whole.  It was not as though God was water in a pitcher and by pouring out Jesus, the pitcher is less full.  It is more like food coloring in water.  Lets say God is red,  so when Jesus is born, God is still entirely red as Jesus is entirely red.  The Holy Spirit is also entirely red.  By adding the three seperate entities together, they are not any more or less red.  So God is one and all.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 5, 2014)

Day trip said:


> We are taught that Jesus was with God from the beginning (first chapter of John) but the Holy Spirit was sent after the resurrection.  Was it there in the beginning? Yes.   In human terms it would be like potential energy.  A rock sitting on top of a slope, but when mankind was ready, the rock (holy Spirit) was set in motion to open our minds to God.  God in three persons, all one, all the same.



Could the "Word" have been this potential energy or God's consciousness or plan or mission?
Also explained by others such as  First Emanation’, the ‘Initial Forethought’, the ‘Expansive Element’.

Oneness believers don't see the "Word" In the book of John as being a separate entity, person, or part of God no more than my word is a different part of me. The Word was the thought, plan, or mind of God. The Word was with God from the beginning and actually was God himself.
The Incarnation existed  in the mind of God before the world begin. In the mind of God the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 5, 2014)

Day trip said:


> Of Jesus being God, incarnate, this is my intuition.  When Jesus was born, God did not become less than the sum of the whole.  It was not as though God was water in a pitcher and by pouring out Jesus, the pitcher is less full.  It is more like food coloring in water.  Lets say God is red,  so when Jesus is born, God is still entirely red as Jesus is entirely red.  The Holy Spirit is also entirely red.  By adding the three seperate entities together, they are not any more or less red.  So God is one and all.



If you see the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as being equal then you are Trinitarian. If God can be all three equally at the same time then you are Trinitarian.

Oneness is believing God is one or the other but not all three at the same time. 

I don't fully understand it better than anyone else  and  accepting ambiguity being a part of maturity 
is a key.


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## hawglips (Nov 20, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> My Aunt (A Mormon) recently challenged me about Jesus being God incarnate. I, of course, responded with scripture; doing my best to quote verbatim. She started twisting things so that they might fit her chosen view.



Mormons believe that Jesus is The Creator.  

I think the problem came about due to the Nicene creation of The Trinity which isn't according to scripture.


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## Foxfire (Nov 20, 2014)

Read.  The Athanasian Creed.

FOXFIRE/Y2KZ71


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## rjcruiser (Nov 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> If you see the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as being equal then you are Trinitarian. If God can be all three equally at the same time then you are Trinitarian.
> 
> Oneness is believing God is one or the other but not all three at the same time.
> 
> ...



Interesting explanation, but good I think.

How does a Oneness person deal with passages in scripture where multiple parts of the trinity are in the same place at the same time.  (ie Creation, Jesus Praying to the Father, Jesus' Baptism etc etc)



hawglips said:


> Mormons believe that Jesus is The Creator.
> 
> I think the problem came about due to the Nicene creation of The Trinity which isn't according to scripture.



Do Mormon's believe that Jesus is God?


I'll disagree with your view that the Nicene council created the Trinity...and that it isn't Biblical...but we'll leave it at that

To me, I look at the Pharisees and why they wanted to kill Jesus.  They wanted to kill him because he claimed to be God.  He even said he was the "I am" in John 8:58 and the religious leaders of the day tried to stone him for it.


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## hawglips (Nov 20, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> Do Mormon's believe that Jesus is God?



Yes.

Since apparently my previous answers to that question haven't registered, here's a few scriptural references exclusive to the Church of Jesus Christ's canon to add gravitas to my "yes." 

"Verily, thus saith the Lord your God, your Redeemer, even Jesus Christ. Amen."

"Listen to the voice of Jesus Christ, your Lord, your God, and your Redeemer, whose word is quick and powerful."

"And I, Jesus Christ, your Lord and your God, have spoken it."

"And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God."

"Hosanna! Blessed be the name of the Most High God! And they did fall down at the feet of Jesus, and did worship him."

"...hearken and hear and behold what I, the Lord God, shall say unto you, even Jesus Christ your Redeemer..."

But Mormons do not believe that Jesus Christ is also His (and our) Heavenly Father - the Heavenly Father that He prayed to so many times, and who testified of Jesus Christ as "my beloved Son" multiple times, in the scriptural record.

Mormons believe in God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Ghost as taught in the Bible - but not the Trinity as taught by the council of Nice. 



rjcruiser said:


> To me, I look at the Pharisees and why they wanted to kill Jesus.  They wanted to kill him because he claimed to be God.  He even said he was the "I am" in John 8:58 and the religious leaders of the day tried to stone him for it.



They were not willing to accept that Jesus was Jehovah, the great I Am, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. 

They also were not appreciative of His rebukes and miraculous power.  The powerful and elite in any society are not keen on having their own power and status threatened.


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## rjcruiser (Nov 20, 2014)

hawglips said:


> But Mormons do not believe that Jesus Christ is also His (and our) Heavenly Father - the Heavenly Father that He prayed to so many times, and who testified of Jesus Christ as "my beloved Son" multiple times, in the scriptural record.
> 
> Mormons believe in God the Father, God the Son and the Holy Ghost as taught in the Bible - but not the Trinity as taught by the council of Nice.
> 
> ...



I guess I'm still a little confused.  If Jesus was/is Jehovah...the great I Am, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob....is He not God the Father?  YWHW?  Elohim? 

How can he be one and not the other?


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## hawglips (Nov 20, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> I guess I'm still a little confused.  If Jesus was/is Jehovah...the great I Am, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob....is He not God the Father?  YWHW?  Elohim?
> 
> How can he be one and not the other?



Elohim = God the Father
Jehovah = Jesus Christ

"...let us create man in our image, after our likeness...."

God the Son prayed to, and was obedient to God the Father.  The Father testified of the divinity of The Son.  And The Son ascended (returned) to sit at the right hand of His Father when His mortal ministry was completed.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 20, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> Interesting explanation, but good I think.
> 
> How does a Oneness person deal with passages in scripture where multiple parts of the trinity are in the same place at the same time.  (ie Creation, Jesus Praying to the Father, Jesus' Baptism etc etc)



Did Jesus Pray to Himself ?
by J.L. Hall

Jesus' prayers open our understanding to the majesty of the Incarnation, for through them we grasp the divine-human relationship between God and His Son. Trinitarians often refer to statements Jesus made about His father, including those in His prayers, in an effort to prove that two persons were involved - who they identify as God the Son and God the Father. Since they reason that only persons and not natures communicate with each other, they regard the prayers as clear evidence that Jesus is a separate person from "the Father". Moreover, they cite Jesus' remarks about the Father as scriptural support for the Trinitarian theory. However, the prayers and remarks by Jesus destroy any concept of God as being a trinity of co-equal, and co-existent persons. 

http://www.altupc.com/altupc/articles/jespray.htm


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 20, 2014)

The Bible clearly distinguishes God the Father from His Son. The Son was born in Bethlehem, but the eternal God does not know a beginning. The Son grew into maturity - physically, mentally, socially, and spiritually. He became tired, hungry, weary, sleepy - just as other men. Although He did not commit sin, He was tempted in all points as other men are tempted. He suffered from the trials in Jerusalem and died on the cross-just as the two thieves also died. God does not grow, nor can He die. These facts alone clearly distinguish the Son from the Father.

The Bible tells us that the man Christ Jesus is the mediator between God and men (I Timothy 2:5). God is one, but a mediator serves more than one - He stood between God and mankind, effecting reconciliation. Only as a man could Jesus be our sacrifice, mediator, advocate, and high priest, acting on our behalf for our justification. 

Jesus' prayers to God the Father came from His human life, from the Incarnation. His prayers were not those of one divine person to another divine person of God, but those of an authentic human praying to the one true God. Prayer is based on an inferior being in supplication before a superior being. If the one praying is equal in power and authority to the one to whom he is praying, there is no genuine prayer.

 But we should not suppose that His humanity detracted from His deity. Jesus was not the incarnation of one person of a trinity, but he was the incarnation of the fullness of God - everything that God is was in Him. Thus the Bible says the "God was manifest in the flesh" (I Tim 3:16) and that "in Him [Jesus] dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (Colossians 2:9). As God incarnate, He identified Himself with the Father: "I and my Father are one" (John 10:30; 31-33); 

Did Jesus pray to Himself ? No, not when we understand that Jesus was both God and man. In His deity Jesus did not pray, for God does not need to pray to anyone. As a man, Jesus prayed to God, not to his humanity (7). He did not pray to Himself as humanity, but to the one true God, to the same God who dwelled in His humanity and who also inhabits the universe. No further explanation is given, and none is needed. Does Jesus pray now since his exaltation ? The answer is no. He prayed in the days of His flesh (Hebrews 5:7). The work of the mediation was finished through His death on the cross at Calvary (Hebrews 9:14-15). 

http://www.altupc.com/altupc/articles/jespray.htm


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 20, 2014)

Two other distinguishing beliefs of Apostolic Pentecostals is a belief in being baptized in the name of Jesus only. They are even called Jesus only believers although they do believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit. They are Jesus only when it comes to baptism. 
Many Trinitarians believe  Christians must show some proof of being a Christian in the form of fruits. 
Many Oneness Pentecostals believe that Christians must receive the gift of tongues, or glossolalia,in order to receive proof.

Jesus being the Creator.
I'm not sure how they view that. I'm sure they believe God is the Creator. Let me see what I can find.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 20, 2014)

If Jesus was equal to God, why is he sitting at the right hand of God?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 20, 2014)

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" (John 17:5).

They see this as I do, Jesus being the Word. They see the world being created through Jesus instead of by Jesus. God foreknew Jesus and created the world through Jesus. Meaning the glory of the work of the cross, since the cross was preplanned, and required this manifestation of God as Son to accomplish that glory.

I think it's hard for us humans to imagine an all seeing and all knowing God acting outside the time concept/restraints we live under. 
God could see before creation that Adam would sin. Therefore his word/mind describes this foreknowledge of Jesus. Therefore through his Word, Jesus was the Word and the world was created through Jesus.

It's kinda mind boggling to understand this concept or any concept of the Trinity or Oneness. Many variations in beliefs of both. Most people can't fully understand or present their own beliefs.
I find it helps to study as many different beliefs as possible and through prayer develop one's own beliefs.


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## M80 (Nov 20, 2014)

Watch three candles burning. They are three seperate flames. Put them together and they become one flame. Pull them back apart and they are three flames again. Best way for this simple country preacher to explain it.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 20, 2014)

hawglips said:


> Elohim = God the Father
> Jehovah = Jesus Christ
> 
> "...let us create man in our image, after our likeness...."
> ...


Is this your belief? or are you stating this as if it has some factual basis. Elohim is used in regards to men and angels in scripture. Jehovah, correct me if I am wrong here somebody is a translation of YHWH.


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## hawglips (Nov 21, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Is this your belief?



Yes.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 21, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Watch three candles burning. They are three seperate flames. Put them together and they become one flame. Pull them back apart and they are three flames again. Best way for this simple country preacher to explain it.



But when you separate the three candles they become three different flames. They are no longer one unified flame. I could understand it  if they always burned together with one unified flame.
Oneness believe God must leave one candle/flame to enter the other but he can't be in all three candles at the same time.


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## Harbuck (Dec 20, 2014)

I am oneness. I believe that Jesus is fully God and Fully man. This is why in some scripture he is referred to as the son of God and in others he is referred to as the son of man. He has the spirit of God but was fully man in his fleshly vessel. This is why he prayed in the garden of geseminey (sp) when his spirit was willing but the man part of him asked his spirit if there was any other way. This is also why he ask "father why have you forsaken me?" because when the flesh of the man that is /was Jesus became the embodiment of sin on the cross, the spirit of God could no longer dwell in him with the sin. thus the man part of Christ becoming the intimate human sacrifice. The scripture tells us that "God is a spirit and those that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." Knowing this we must ask ourselves if there is any spirit that is as holy as God? so God is the Holy spirit, He is also Jesus and the Father. Remember that Abraham told his son Isaac in Genesis  that "God will provide HIMSELF a sacrifice". I know that Abraham was referring to not having to sacrifice his son Isaac, but this whole scenario with Abraham being asked by God to sacrifice his son Isaac the "Promised child" is a type and shadow of what God's plan was for our salvation that was yet to come.  I hope this helps!


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## Harbuck (Dec 21, 2014)

you must remember that Adam was created by God in his image as a spirit on the sixth day. then after God rested God Formed man from the DUST of the ground " a vessel" then put that spirit into the vessel that was/is the flesh to have dominion over the earth as God has dominion over the heavens. Adam lost this dominion when he ate of the fruit but God didn't curse Adam, he cursed the ground "the DUST." God even told the serpent what he would be doing when he told him in Gen. 3: 14 " and the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and DUST (man) shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:".  So this leads you to ask yourself, How was the man part of Jesus able to operate in his Dominion while here on earth if the flesh, "dust is cursed"? It is simple really remember that God created Adam but Jesus came from the seed of God himself God overshadowed Mary and placed his seed into her womb. Remember that life is found in the blood the DNA. Also every child that is born has the "blood type of the father not the mother." This is why Jesus is referred to as the only "begotten" son of God. He literally carried the expressed image of God's blood God's life force. By God providing his own seed he was able to place a vessel on earth that was not crafted of the earth thus enabling Jesus to operate in the full dominion over the earth like God had intended for man to have. So now you have the Body of a man with the Spirit of God. Literally the expressed image of God's life force and divinity. This is also why it was important that the child was to be named Jesus. Because He had to have the Name of his Father. Would you give your child someone else's name? I think not. A name has so much meaning It signifies who you are and also what your purpose is. Have you ever heard the phrase "I come in the NAME of the king"? So you are declaring when you say this that you come with all the authority of the King and people better listen and take heed to your words. Jesus never preached religion he preach Kingdom. "If you have seen me you have seen the father". hence they are one and the same. Jesus said to go and Baptize in the NAME of the father and the NAME of the son and the NAME of the holy spirit. So if the Father gives a child it's name to signify that that child is of His family wouldn't that name also be the name of the father? If you read the new testament you will discover that after Jesus told the disciples to go and baptize in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit. That NONE of the disciples did this. They only baptized people in the name of Jesus. Now you must ask yourself if the disciples were being disobedient to the wishes of Jesus, or if the disciples had revelation that Jesus is that name.


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## Harbuck (Dec 21, 2014)

Please realize that when I capitalize certain things, It is not me screaming at you. I merely am wanting to draw infancies on certain things.I may not agree with your beliefs but I in no way intend to bash you or argue with you. I only with to share what I believe is right and true. I love you all my brothers and sisters and I respect your beliefs I just may not agree with them.


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## Harbuck (Dec 21, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> But when you separate the three candles they become three different flames. They are no longer one unified flame. I could understand it  if they always burned together with one unified flame.
> Oneness believe God must leave one candle/flame to enter the other but he can't be in all three candles at the same time.



I don't believe that and I'm oneness, God is Omni present. My question to you is why separate then? Why not just realize that it's the flame. Why put God in boxes that are labeled Father son and Holy spirit?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 21, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> I don't believe that and I'm oneness, God is Omni present. My question to you is why separate then? Why not just realize that it's the flame. Why put God in boxes that are labeled Father son and Holy spirit?




I know your not asking me, but the reason for this is Jesus. Jesus is the reason why... and unless one knows Jesus for who ( a Gallilian some two thousand yrs ago) and why he is (Samuel 7 and the Gospels in general), than the trinity seems a silly add on in the lives of some people.

 Many will say that the trinity is not biblical, but the bible and the reality of God viewed by disciples with the new instruments of the faithful, ( the redeemed who have sought, recognized and distinguished the faces of God both eternal and physical, within the disciplines of the Kingdom and the Christian church) says different. 

There is a second wind to be had in the running of the race in Christianity perhaps and those who fix for themselves a finish line ahead of  themselves (ie. the capacity to see what's in the bible), might do well to let God fix it and to where the majority in his church has fixed it or one step more than they have fixed it for themselves as to what is revealed by the bible concerning the Trinity. There is a second wind in the race in my view...which many ignore since having fixed the finish, they don't train for it.

By the way I like your "flame". You and it  think of and ask good questions. Also, if that is your hound in the Avatar, it is a beautiful dog. I personally like hounds.


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## Harbuck (Dec 21, 2014)

Thank you my brother. I look forward to sharping some iron with you.

Proverbs 27:17 - Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 21, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> Thank you my brother. I look forward to sharping some iron with you.
> 
> Proverbs 27:17 - Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.



I will share with you what I have. I am not always right. And others have a lot more to share than I do... The peace of Christ to you bros.


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## Harbuck (Dec 21, 2014)

He was mine. Him and my female beagle went missing a couple yrs. ago  I loved that dog, his name was Duke and her name was Bella. It seems all the Dogs around here go missing unfortunately.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 21, 2014)

How people perceive does influence what they perceive. Or put in another way, how people think often influences what they think, or again, how people see influences what they  will see.

As Christians we know and can prove that God is. This is easy to prove and understand between Christians because by definition Christians put on the mind of Christ. It is easy therefore to know that the mind and being of Christ is the mind and being of the Father and that the mind and reality of the Holy Spirit is in agreement with these two.  They are in such agreement as to be in reality one and one God, but God can be demonstrated to be  also three because of Jesus and his ministry.

Now to prove God to people who don't believe is difficult.  If we agree that how we perceive will determine what we perceive then for people who don't believe, belief is darn near impossible under their own steam. Even when some nonbelievers says they are open to proofs, they are not open to the extent that Christians are open.

When Christians say they love God with all their heart and minds, or they say they are saved, or redeemed, or that they are disciples it implies that they are born again-- and that the old mind, the old ways of perceiving have been rubbed out as being the only ways to perceive reality. It means that your spirit as a person has been born again to where it can be in "right close" relationship with God through Jesus and his ministry. It means that you now can compare the spiritual limits and goals you once set for yourself and the ones Jesus makes all new. And Jesus said he who sees me sees the Father, this Jesus made it such that the Father sent to us the Holy Spirit to minister to our born again spirit.

 John 12:45 The one who looks at me is seeing the one who sent me.


John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.


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## Israel (Dec 21, 2014)

Not to get tedious in repetition: 
May they be one even as you and I are one.
The knowing of God as One (at least to the extent of the relationship of Father and Son) is in the measure of our seeing ourselves as one, in him. That this is accomplished we are sure in our persuasion to which we believe the Father has answered the son's prayers with "yes, and amen".
We may rightly ask...is this a someday thing?
Or something now, to be searched out and seen.
If the Father and Son cannot be closer...can we?
So, if we ask of pure heart, perhaps, the Lord will show us those things that hinder our sight, and no less our understanding, to the end that we might understand...but also...more, much more importantly, manifest the love amongst us that shows the world what it is given for...that all may know whose disciples we are, and in the seeing, be granted to see him, too.
Sometimes it seems afar off, but all of seems is as a vapor.
Faith will show what is not seen, so that in the seeing, our joy may be full.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 22, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> I am oneness. I believe that Jesus is fully God and Fully man. This is why in some scripture he is referred to as the son of God and in others he is referred to as the son of man. He has the spirit of God but was fully man in his fleshly vessel. This is why he prayed in the garden of geseminey (sp) when his spirit was willing but the man part of him asked his spirit if there was any other way. This is also why he ask "father why have you forsaken me?" because when the flesh of the man that is /was Jesus became the embodiment of sin on the cross, the spirit of God could no longer dwell in him with the sin. thus the man part of Christ becoming the intimate human sacrifice. The scripture tells us that "God is a spirit and those that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." Knowing this we must ask ourselves if there is any spirit that is as holy as God? so God is the Holy spirit, He is also Jesus and the Father. Remember that Abraham told his son Isaac in Genesis  that "God will provide HIMSELF a sacrifice". I know that Abraham was referring to not having to sacrifice his son Isaac, but this whole scenario with Abraham being asked by God to sacrifice his son Isaac the "Promised child" is a type and shadow of what God's plan was for our salvation that was yet to come.  I hope this helps!



Welcome to the forum, Harbuck. I don't think we've ever had a Oneness believer on here before. Thanks for your input on your belief. Are you an Apostolic Pentecostal?
I'm not a Trintiarian or Oneness believer. I too feel God is the Holy Spirit and is manifest as Jesus but not as three separate entities at the same time. I don't believe Jesus is his Father but follow your beliefs more closely than Trinitarians who divide God into three totally different but equal parts.
I do see your position more clearly than the Trinitarians but not exactly the same as you. OK, here is a few questions;
When could God no longer dwell in Jesus because of sin? Did this happen right before his death? How did God stop dwelling in Jesus? Could God stop dwelling in me? I do believe God dwelling in someone and God being that person is two different things. That being said, when God dwelled or became Jesus, did Jesus keep his human soul/spirit? When God became Jesus did he stop being the Father or Holy Spirit?
Did the man Jesus have a totally different entity/soul/spirit/body/being/ persona/etc. that could pray to God the Father or did Jesus pray to himself? Himself being God dwelling in him but not being him? This same God that was him but left him on the cross, briefly? 
I'm interested in how brief this leaving of God from Jesus was and if God's indwelling within us, leaving us is possible.


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## M80 (Dec 22, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> I am oneness. I believe that Jesus is fully God and Fully man. This is why in some scripture he is referred to as the son of God and in others he is referred to as the son of man. He has the spirit of God but was fully man in his fleshly vessel. This is why he prayed in the garden of geseminey (sp) when his spirit was willing but the man part of him asked his spirit if there was any other way. This is also why he ask "father why have you forsaken me?" because when the flesh of the man that is /was Jesus became the embodiment of sin on the cross, the spirit of God could no longer dwell in him with the sin. thus the man part of Christ becoming the intimate human sacrifice. The scripture tells us that "God is a spirit and those that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." Knowing this we must ask ourselves if there is any spirit that is as holy as God? so God is the Holy spirit, He is also Jesus and the Father. Remember that Abraham told his son Isaac in Genesis  that "God will provide HIMSELF a sacrifice". I know that Abraham was referring to not having to sacrifice his son Isaac, but this whole scenario with Abraham being asked by God to sacrifice his son Isaac the "Promised child" is a type and shadow of what God's plan was for our salvation that was yet to come.  I hope this helps!



Welcome sir and I sure like your words. Amen


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## EverGreen1231 (Dec 22, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> I am oneness. I believe that Jesus is fully God and Fully man. This is why in some scripture he is referred to as the son of God and in others he is referred to as the son of man. He has the spirit of God but was fully man in his fleshly vessel. This is why he prayed in the garden of geseminey (sp) when his spirit was willing but the man part of him asked his spirit if there was any other way. This is also why he ask "father why have you forsaken me?" because when the flesh of the man that is /was Jesus became the embodiment of sin on the cross, the spirit of God could no longer dwell in him with the sin. thus the man part of Christ becoming the intimate human sacrifice. The scripture tells us that "God is a spirit and those that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." Knowing this we must ask ourselves if there is any spirit that is as holy as God? so God is the Holy spirit, He is also Jesus and the Father. Remember that Abraham told his son Isaac in Genesis  that "God will provide HIMSELF a sacrifice". I know that Abraham was referring to not having to sacrifice his son Isaac, but this whole scenario with Abraham being asked by God to sacrifice his son Isaac the "Promised child" is a type and shadow of what God's plan was for our salvation that was yet to come.  I hope this helps!



Lines up with what I've caught from teachings and the scriptures. Welcome to the forum.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 22, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> I don't believe that and I'm oneness, God is Omni present. My question to you is why separate then? Why not just realize that it's the flame. Why put God in boxes that are labeled Father son and Holy spirit?



I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. Doesn't the Bible 
separate God into the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
I do understand God is in me and that doesn't make me God. Do you see Jesus more of a brother or as a Father? Meaning when we get to Heaven will our inheritance be as with Jesus or as with God the Father?
Will we rule as equals with Jesus? Is Jesus sitting at the right hand of his Father?


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 22, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Welcome to the forum, Harbuck. I don't think we've ever had a Oneness believer on here before. Thanks for your input on your belief. Are you an Apostolic Pentecostal?
> I'm not a Trintiarian or Oneness believer. I too feel God is the Holy Spirit and is manifest as Jesus but not as three separate entities at the same time. I don't believe Jesus is his Father but follow your beliefs more closely than Trinitarians who divide God into three totally different but equal parts.
> I do see your position more clearly than the Trinitarians but not exactly the same as you. OK, here is a few questions;
> When could God no longer dwell in Jesus because of sin? Did this happen right before his death? How did God stop dwelling in Jesus? Could God stop dwelling in me? I do believe God dwelling in someone and God being that person is two different things. That being said, when God dwelled or became Jesus, did Jesus keep his human soul/spirit? When God became Jesus did he stop being the Father or Holy Spirit?
> ...


That seems so complicated, those questions. I see it so simple. Jesus was the first recipient of the new covenant, he Acts 2 received the promise of the HS and is the firstborn of many brothers. [born again/born from above when we receive the HS]


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 22, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> That seems so complicated, those questions. I see it so simple. Jesus was the first recipient of the new covenant, he Acts 2 received the promise of the HS and is the firstborn of many brothers. [born again/born from above when we receive the HS]



Trinitarians do make it complicated. I'm hoping Oneness makes it more simple. There is only one God. One means Oneness. One God manifest in different entities makes more sense than one God divided into three equal but different entities. Entities described as persons/beings/ persona's/manifestations.
I too see myself as a brother of Jesus and God as our Father. I see the Holy Spirit as God's Spirit. How do you view the Holy Spirit? 
This way is simple. It's way easier to explain than one God divided into three. Now that being said, if we must divide God, let's at least keep him as one part of the Trinity at a time instead of three equal parts at the same time. 
There is only one God.


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## Harbuck (Dec 23, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Welcome to the forum, Harbuck. I don't think we've ever had a Oneness believer on here before. Thanks for your input on your belief. Are you an Apostolic Pentecostal?
> I'm not a Trintiarian or Oneness believer. I too feel God is the Holy Spirit and is manifest as Jesus but not as three separate entities at the same time. I don't believe Jesus is his Father but follow your beliefs more closely than Trinitarians who divide God into three totally different but equal parts.
> I do see your position more clearly than the Trinitarians but not exactly the same as you. OK, here is a few questions;
> When could God no longer dwell in Jesus because of sin? Did this happen right before his death? How did God stop dwelling in Jesus? Could God stop dwelling in me? I do believe God dwelling in someone and God being that person is two different things. That being said, when God dwelled or became Jesus, did Jesus keep his human soul/spirit? When God became Jesus did he stop being the Father or Holy Spirit?
> ...



*When could God no longer dwell in Jesus because of sin?* I believe that the spirit of God left the body of Jesus just as Jesus ask why have you forsaken me just before his death yes I believe so. I not saying that I'm right But in my thinking God had to go for Jesus to die and because God could not dwell in the body of Jesus while it was so polluted with the sins of the world that it took on. remember that Jesus told Mary I believe not to touch him because he had not yet been glorified.

*How did God stop dwelling in Jesus?* God's spirit left the man that had become the sacrifice. I'm not sure how else to answer this. and I too am just a country boy looking for answers I'm always learning and still have alot to learn.

*Could God stop dwelling in me?* Yes, You are his temple but remember that God is a Gentle man. If you begin to let sin in his temple he isn't going to insist on staying he will not dwell in a place of sin. So he will not leave you but he will choose not to dwell within you while you allow his temple to remain polluted. nor would any King tolerate a filthy palace. we read about heaven having many mansions and so often dream of a place with a street of gold and mansions all around. but if we are his temple and heaven is within us, wouldn't it be fair to say that we are those mansions?

*when God dwelled or became Jesus, did Jesus keep his human soul/spirit?* Yes I believe that Jesus had his own soul/Personality but his spirit is God's spirit. This is why he can be God and also be the advocate to the father "the spirit" on our behalf. Jesus's soul or personality can relate to being human thus is able to have compassion on mankind and plead in our defense to his spirit "the father". remember that we to have body soul and spirit. but we are still one creature. "oneness"

*When God became Jesus did he stop being the Father or Holy Spirit?* No, God is the Great I am he is everything and in everything. The only thing that limits God in our thinking is just that. "our thinking" it's hard for our minds to wrap it self around what it the vastness and complexities of God. "I AM everything you will ever need, want or desire. think of it this way God spoke "the word" everything into existence so if Jesus is the word as John states then the word is the "seed" of all creation thus Jesus has always been part of the father or God.


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## Harbuck (Dec 23, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not sure exactly what you are asking. Doesn't the Bible
> separate God into the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?
> I do understand God is in me and that doesn't make me God. Do you see Jesus more of a brother or as a Father? Meaning when we get to Heaven will our inheritance be as with Jesus or as with God the Father?
> Will we rule as equals with Jesus? Is Jesus sitting at the right hand of his Father?



I think my above comments on your questions will answer this. If not I'll try to answer it. remember that by saying that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father it is symbolic that he is seated as the fullness of God bodily in heaven or within you "at the right hand with all power and authority. the right hand is symbolic of power". Also if I'm not mistaken it is symbolic of Jesus being the sacrifice as I've heard that in Jewish custom the sacrifice was always taken into the right hand of the High Priest to be offered up to God.


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## Harbuck (Dec 23, 2014)

Are you an Apostolic Pentecostal? I was raise in the UPC so I have a heavy influence of Apostolic Pentecostal but have vered away from UPC because of the UN-biblical rules that are placed on UPC followers. example is ladies not allowed to cut their hair. I do believe the UPC fundamental doctrine though so I guess if you must put me in a box of religion you could say that I'm  Apostolic. However I have become much more Kingdom minded the more I study, and I prefer to call myself a follower of Christ and not christian. The word Christian was originally meant to be a derogatory word to label followers of Christ. I believe that "Christianity has failed in it's mission to change the world" instead the world has influenced Christianity to the point to where it has become another religion with little to no substance. When will the remnant of true followers rise up? To much is watered down. We are supposed to be a picquar(sp) people but most all Christians couldn't be distinguished from anyone else. For example Christmas.... “But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men” (Matt. 15:9). Christmas is not a command of God -- it is a tradition of men.  “Full well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your own tradition” (Mark 7:9). Every year, throughout the world, on December 25th, hundreds of millions do just that! We even incorporate Pagan God's Deities and customs into christmas but insist that Jesus is the reason for the season.

We see that God plainly commands, “Follow not the way of the heathen.” But most people do not fear  God, and He allows them to make their own decisions. Human beings are free moral agents -- free to obey or disobey God!


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> Are you an Apostolic Pentecostal? I was raise in the UPC so I have a heavy influence of Apostolic Pentecostal but have vered away from UPC because of the UN-biblical rules that are placed on UPC followers. example is ladies not allowed to cut their hair. I do believe the UPC fundamental doctrine though so I guess if you must put me in a box of religion you could say that I'm  Apostolic. However I have become much more Kingdom minded the more I study, and I prefer to call myself a follower of Christ and not christian. The word Christian was originally meant to be a derogatory word to label followers of Christ. I believe that "Christianity has failed in it's mission to change the world" instead the world has influenced Christianity to the point to where it has become another religion with little to no substance. When will the remnant of true followers rise up? To much is watered down. We are supposed to be a picquar(sp) people but most all Christians couldn't be distinguished from anyone else.



Amen and thanks for all of your answers. I like the way you think for yourself and aren't limited by a denomination or label.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> I think my above comments on your questions will answer this. If not I'll try to answer it. remember that by saying that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father it is symbolic that he is seated as the fullness of God bodily in heaven or within you "at the right hand with all power and authority. the right hand is symbolic of power". Also if I'm not mistaken it is symbolic of Jesus being the sacrifice as I've heard that in Jewish custom the sacrifice was always taken into the right hand of the High Priest to be offered up to God.



The more I study about Heaven, the more it sounds like a spiritual place. A place without actual thrones or the right hand of God. Still though I feel Jesus has his own spirit that we will be able to distinguish from God's spirit. 
Maybe there aren't any literal streets of gold or mansions in Heaven. 
Maybe He11 isn't a place with literal flames and a lake of fire or pits. How can a spirit actually burn?


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## Harbuck (Dec 23, 2014)

I find nothing wrong with gift giving but Santa, Trees and stocking being hung by the chimney are all Pagan customs and deities and do not in any form belong in what is supposed to be a day about our savior.


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## Harbuck (Dec 23, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> The more I study about Heaven, the more it sounds like a spiritual place. A place without actual thrones or the right hand of God. Still though I feel Jesus has his own spirit that we will be able to distinguish from God's spirit.
> Maybe there aren't any literal streets of gold or mansions in Heaven.
> Maybe He11 isn't a place with literal flames and a lake of fire or pits. How can a spirit actually burn?



I think what actually makes CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored so bad is the absence of God's hope. Could you imagine being in a place of torment and realizing that there is no hope for your salvation anymore? That in itself would be torment.


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## Harbuck (Dec 23, 2014)

sorry HE11


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## hobbs27 (Dec 23, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> I think what actually makes CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored so bad is the absence of God's hope. Could you imagine being in a place of torment and realizing that there is no hope for your salvation anymore? That in itself would be torment.



I can imagine that, but I can't find that place in scripture.


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## Harbuck (Dec 23, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I can imagine that, but I can't find that place in scripture.



So do you believe that once your in he11 you still have a chance to be saved? I can't find that in scripture. So If not then you have No hope.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 23, 2014)

If God himself, who is the one and only God we all  agree on--- thanks to his grace---, if He called himself --who is the one  and only God--  as more than one, would you call him more than one? Would you say of Him who is one--They?


Here: 
Isaiah 6:1: In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord, high and exalted, seated on a throne; and the train of his robe filled the temple.

 Isaiah 6:8: Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" He said: 

"Go, and say to the people, 
"hear and hear again, but do not understand;
..."


---------------------------------------------


What does Luke say about this: 


Acts 28:25-27King James Version (KJV)

25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,

26 Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

God is beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John 1: 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Timothy 6:16: Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Grace. Grace. Grace.


 In the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, Peace in the Lord dear friends and may the celebration that is Christmas be a blessing to you and  yours.

And remember:  In the beginning was the Word: the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 23, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> So do you believe that once your in he11 you still have a chance to be saved? I can't find that in scripture. So If not then you have No hope.



Since you had a hard time with Christmas being a blended pagan belief I'll give you a treat here. Go study and research the belief of eternal punishment in Christianity and see where it originated from. 

Find the meaning of the words translated into he11, then tell me which one you think is a place of eternal " anything" punishment...absence..w/e.


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## Harbuck (Dec 23, 2014)

@ Gordon2 

Isaiah 6:8: Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" He said: 

Here God is speaking on behalf of his Kingdom. "Us" being the Kingdom.


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## Harbuck (Dec 23, 2014)

John 1:18King James Version (KJV)

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


 Gordon2 what version of the Bible does your quote of John 1:18 come from?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2014)

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. KJV

No one has ever seen God. The One and Only Son-- the One who is at the Father's side-- He has revealed Him.

No one has ever seen God. God's only Son, the one who is closest to the Father's heart, has made him known.

Is Jesus literally at his Father's side or just close to his heart?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> John 1:18King James Version (KJV)
> 
> 18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
> 
> ...



Strange but I was just looking at these translation differences.

Harbuck, from your Apostolic background, do you follow being baptized in the name of Jesus only. If so how do you explain the Great Commission?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 23, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> @ Gordon2
> 
> Isaiah 6:8: Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" He said:
> 
> Here God is speaking on behalf of his Kingdom. "Us" being the Kingdom.





Good point. However, how do you come by this... in the context of Isaiah ? "  Do you mean David's Kingdom or another? Isaiah starts with: " Isaiah1:3 "Isreal knows nothing, my people understands nothing."

Now can a people who understand nothing, a kingdom or not, be the "us"  who have a message to send when the message comes from the Lord? The people don't have a message for themselves, they know nothing.

Isaiah uses the word King, " my eyes  have looked a the King, Yahweh Sabaoth" which in perhaps meant to convey  " I have seen God." in an affectionate way or with reverence and fear, as he is talking directly with God. It does not imply the Davidic Kingdom or ours in my view. Or is it Ours? Which other could it be? Ideas?

What if Isaiah saw Jesus? Could Jesus have projected the Kingdom  to mean ours, in his use of "us" in which case "us" would be the saints and God? Perhaps. Ideas?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 23, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> John 1:18King James Version (KJV)
> 
> 18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
> 
> ...



New International Version

No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

KJV
No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If he was in the bosom of the Father... that makes him? A man or God? Was man ever in the bosom of the Father?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> New International Version
> 
> No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.
> 
> ...



The Word was in the Heart of God from the beginning. Isn't it possible for Jesus to be in the bosom of the Father?
God is a spirit he doesn't have an actual heart or bosom.

Bosom:
the signification of bosom, is love; for that which is of the breast corresponds to love, because therein is the heart, which corresponds to celestial love.

http://www.biblemeanings.info/Words/Body/Bosom.htm


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2014)

John 1:18 doesn't say that Jesus saw God but that he "revealed" God. Jesus said; if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.
He revealed his Father to us. He didn't become his Father to do this.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 23, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> John 1:18 doesn't say that Jesus saw God but that he "revealed" God. Jesus said; if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.
> He revealed his Father to us. He didn't become his Father to do this.




Thanks for you ideas. I'll just add a little here, i have to get to the bunk.

Since  God is a spirit and man cannot physically see Him, then the God that Jesus revealed was himself physically, which person people could see, " if you have seen me, you have seen the Father." 

 As  the bosom of Abraham refers, as near as I understand it, to the  unity in intimacy of the people of faith as one people and one family with Abraham-- a man, so the bosom of the Father implies a unity in intimacy by the Son( Jesus) with God the father in likeness familial  and devine .

But I might be wrong...  and thanks again.... GBU.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 24, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> Thanks for you ideas. I'll just add a little here, i have to get to the bunk.
> 
> Since  God is a spirit and man cannot physically see Him, then the God that Jesus revealed was himself physically, which person people could see, " if you have seen me, you have seen the Father."
> 
> ...



God being revealed by Jesus was God's love, power, grace,forgiveness, and other attributes, not the physical flesh of Jesus which wasn't God even for Trinitarians.

I gotta hit the rack myself, my flesh is requiring sleep.


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## Harbuck (Dec 24, 2014)

Harbuck said:
			
		

> Yes, Father son and Holy Spirit are titles. refer to my post here:
> 
> you must remember that Adam was created by God in his image as a spirit on the sixth day. then after God rested God Formed man from the DUST of the ground " a vessel" then put that spirit into the vessel that was/is the flesh to have dominion over the earth as God has dominion over the heavens. Adam lost this dominion when he ate of the fruit but God didn't curse Adam, he cursed the ground "the DUST." God even told the serpent what he would be doing when he told him in Gen. 3: 14 " and the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and DUST (man) shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:". So this leads you to ask yourself, How was the man part of Jesus able to operate in his Dominion while here on earth if the flesh, "dust is cursed"? It is simple really remember that God created Adam but Jesus came from the seed of God himself God overshadowed Mary and placed his seed into her womb. Remember that life is found in the blood the DNA. Also every child that is born has the "blood type of the father not the mother." This is why Jesus is referred to as the only "begotten" son of God. He literally carried the expressed image of God's blood God's life force. By God providing his own seed he was able to place a vessel on earth that was not crafted of the earth thus enabling Jesus to operate in the full dominion over the earth like God had intended for man to have. So now you have the Body of a man with the Spirit of God. Literally the expressed image of God's life force and divinity. This is also why it was important that the child was to be named Jesus. Because He had to have the Name of his Father. Would you give your child someone else's name? I think not. A name has so much meaning It signifies who you are and also what your purpose is. Have you ever heard the phrase "I come in the NAME of the king"? So you are declaring when you say this that you come with all the authority of the King and people better listen and take heed to your words. Jesus never preached religion he preach Kingdom. "If you have seen me you have seen the father". hence they are one and the same. Jesus said to go and Baptize in the NAME of the father and the NAME of the son and the NAME of the holy spirit. So if the Father gives a child it's name to signify that that child is of His family wouldn't that name also be the name of the father? If you read the new testament you will discover that after Jesus told the disciples to go and baptize in the name of the father and of the son and of the holy spirit. That NONE of the disciples did this. They only baptized people in the name of Jesus. Now you must ask yourself if the disciples were being disobedient to the wishes of Jesus, or if the disciples had revelation that Jesus is that name.
> 
> ...


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## Harbuck (Dec 24, 2014)

There’s only one Lord (Zechariah 14:9; Acts 2:36, 10:36), one faith (Mark 16:16; John 3:5-17; Jude v. 3), and one baptism unto salvation (Acts 2:38-22:16) says Ephesians 4:5. There are the baptisms of tongues and of fire, but only One unto salvation. If Jesus is the way, truth, door and life to God, then why would anyone use any other name? Jesus is the name of the father (John 5:43), son (Matt 1:21) and Holy Spirit/Ghost (John 14:26). In fact it’s the family name of God! (Ephesians 3:14-15)


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 24, 2014)

Adam's spirit came a day earlier than his vessel. I'm assuming ours does too. We are spirits and bodies joined together but not eternal in beginning. We haven't always existed like the Spirit of Jesus has.
Was Jesus with God from the beginning as a separate spirit or is this not literal? Jesus being in God's bosom or at his right hand is not literal? Then the Word being with God was just God's omniscience of the future event of Jesus coming to Earth as our Savior.
As a Oneness believer you must believe that Jesus was not at God's right hand but actually God in another spirit form. Jesus being a separate spirit of God. But then that goes back to two Gods or God being separated.
That sounds like two Gods or two totally different spirits together at the beginning.
Now God comes down from Heaven to become a man or did Jesus come down from heaven to become a man?
I understand God is omnipresent and can be everywhere. He can  be in the body of Jesus and in our bodies at the same time. This doesn't make me God. I thought God's spirit entered Jesus at his baptism. I thought Jesus had his own spirit who prayed to his Father in Heaven.
Wasn't Jesus a spirit who came down form Heaven and became a man? God is not a man. He may be revealed by a man as in "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father."


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 24, 2014)

My real question or reason for all of these questions and related to the Oneness of God is exactly what part of Jesus is deity? I understand Trinitarians say he is 100% man and 100% God.
Somehow though he is a separate but equal entity of God the Father.
It would be harder for a Oneness to explain this seperation and Jesus being with God from the beginning before time.
Now when Jesus was born a man, he had a God father and a human mother. This would make his flesh human. Flesh also contains a spirit/soul separate from his Fathers. 
We are a part of our fathers in that we have their DNA but we aren't our fathers anymore than we are our mothers. We become sons that our fathers are well pleased with.(hopefully)
We become a son that can talk to our father. We can even reveal our father. If you have seen me, you have seen my father. This doesn't make me my father.
OK back on track with Jesus, the God/man. Did he not have his own spirit that was with God before being born a man? Isn't that the part of Jesus that is his God part and not his flesh? Isn't his flesh/soul his human part that died and resurrected? Didn't the spirit of Jesus go somewhere to preach when he died a physical death? Isn't this separate part of Jesus(human part) the part that made the sacrifice for our sins? Isn't this part of Jesus the part that ascended to his Father? His human spirit which is separate from God's spirit? Isn't this part, spirit or spiritual body, of Jesus next to God in Heaven even if not literal? Will we be able to see(be with, embrace) two spiritual entities in Heaven, both God & Jesus? Or will God only be revealed to us through Jesus as a separate entity, spirit, or spiritual resurrected body?

I was reading this:
If Jesus Christ is a union of human and divine natures, was his human nature co-eternal with God, or only his divine nature?
John 1:14 (“and the Word was made flesh”) seems to imply that the Incarnation took place later. That, in turn, suggests that Jesus Christ’s human nature “happened” later—it was not present at the beginning, not co-eternal with God (except, perhaps, as a potentiality). If so, then can it be said that the joint human-divine nature of Jesus Christ is the second person of the Holy Trinity? Or is only the divine nature of Jesus Christ (the Logos) the Second Person? How could Jesus Christ’s human nature be part of the Trinity if it is not co-eternal with God?

http://catholicsay.com/how-could-je...the-trinity-if-it-is-not-co-eternal-with-god/


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 24, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Trinitarians do make it complicated. I'm hoping Oneness makes it more simple. There is only one God. One means Oneness. One God manifest in different entities makes more sense than one God divided into three equal but different entities. Entities described as persons/beings/ persona's/manifestations.
> I too see myself as a brother of Jesus and God as our Father. I see the Holy Spirit as God's Spirit. How do you view the Holy Spirit?
> This way is simple. It's way easier to explain than one God divided into three. Now that being said, if we must divide God, let's at least keep him as one part of the Trinity at a time instead of three equal parts at the same time.
> There is only one God.


I see the HS as just another name for God. God is spirit and God is Holy. Not a coequal third person of a triune godhead


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 24, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> *When could God no longer dwell in Jesus because of sin?* I believe that the spirit of God left the body of Jesus just as Jesus ask why have you forsaken me just before his death yes I believe so. I not saying that I'm right But in my thinking God had to go for Jesus to die and because God could not dwell in the body of Jesus while it was so polluted with the sins of the world that it took on. remember that Jesus told Mary I believe not to touch him because he had not yet been glorified.
> 
> *How did God stop dwelling in Jesus?* God's spirit left the man that had become the sacrifice. I'm not sure how else to answer this. and I too am just a country boy looking for answers I'm always learning and still have alot to learn.
> 
> ...


An early belief such as this was caused "separationist" 

Edit, while trying to recall this belief, I found this... which is not the same belief as yours Harbuck, but similiar, interesting any way.

http://www.reasonwithme.com/2013/01/16/lost-christianities-separationists/


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 24, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> @ Gordon2
> 
> Isaiah 6:8: Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" He said:
> 
> Here God is speaking on behalf of his Kingdom. "Us" being the Kingdom.


Glad your here Harbuck. Your input will be appreciated. Great bunch of guys hear, always respectable of others beliefs


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 24, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> An early belief such as this was caused "separationist"
> 
> Edit, while trying to recall this belief, I found this... which is not the same belief as yours Harbuck, but similiar, interesting any way.
> 
> http://www.reasonwithme.com/2013/01/16/lost-christianities-separationists/



Thanks for the link, that was interesting. I've never heard of separationest.

I was thinking about the way God knew me before I was even born. I don't believe this gives me an eternal beginning just that God foreknew I would be born.
Following this line of reasoning I believe the Word was with God from the beginning in God's heart but not actually a separate entity/spirit. The world was made through Jesus meaning God foreknew he would send Jesus. 
Omniscience and foreknowledge changes the way God operates from the way we think. We have trouble understanding these Biblical terms and try to understand them literally and under our terms.
I would assume Oneness believers don't believe Jesus was with God as a separate entity/spirit before being born but that he was actually God the Father. Jesus was actually in God's bosom. That is why they don't believe God when using "us" means God & Jesus. It's not like God who is a spirit is talking to Jesus who is a spirit because they believe He is the same spirit. Not that I believe that but even Oneness is more believable that Jesus being with God from the beginning as a separate but equal entity.
I think Trinitarians see everything as too literal about God and Jesus. They know there is only one God but somehow need or try to separate him into three equal parts.
I can understand how a monotheist could find this confusing.
Thanks for your input and Merry Christmas to all.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 24, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks for the link, that was interesting. I've never heard of separationest.
> 
> I was thinking about the way God knew me before I was even born. I don't believe this gives me an eternal being just that God foreknew I would be born.
> Following this line of reasoning I believe the Word was with God from the beginning in God's heart but not actually a separate entity/spirit. The world was made through Jesus meaning God foreknew he would send Jesus.
> ...


Hey Art, Merry Christmas. I see it like this. He foreknew me because everything was created in the six days. Much of biblical understanding springs from this foundation. He created everything. He did not create "as he went". Much was created "in word", meaning that he spoke it into existence yet it did not yet come to pass "until times reached fullfillment set forth by God".  Rain is an example. It did not rain until the flood. It was "withheld". Since God is spirit, he is better known by what he does. The creation, him speaking things into existence is one of his most know for attributes. So, he spoke and it was so. In the beginning was the [creative] word and the word was  with [withheld] and God was the word [God is what he does].


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## Harbuck (Dec 24, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks for the link, that was interesting. I've never heard of separationest.
> 
> I was thinking about the way God knew me before I was even born. I don't believe this gives me an eternal being just that God foreknew I would be born.
> Following this line of reasoning I believe the Word was with God from the beginning in God's heart but not actually a separate entity/spirit. The world was made through Jesus meaning God foreknew he would send Jesus.
> ...



Think of it this way, In John he said Jesus is the "word" made flesh. I can speak but my voice isn't a separate being or entity and my words resonate from within my bosom. So if Jesus is the word of God and God spoke everything into existence then Jesus was at the beginning but he isn't a separate Co-equal God he is just apart of God.


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## Harbuck (Dec 24, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey Art, Merry Christmas. I see it like this. He foreknew me because everything was created in the six days. Much of biblical understanding springs from this foundation. He created everything. He did not create "as he went". Much was created "in word", meaning that he spoke it into existence yet it did not yet come to pass "until times reached fullfillment set forth by God".  Rain is an example. It did not rain until the flood. It was "withheld". Since God is spirit, he is better known by what he does. The creation, him speaking things into existence is one of his most know for attributes. So, he spoke and it was so. In the beginning was the [creative] word and the word was  with [withheld] and God was the word [God is what he does].



Amen


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 24, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> Think of it this way, In John he said Jesus is the "word" made flesh. I can speak but my voice isn't a separate being or entity and my words resonate from within my bosom. So if Jesus is the word of God and God spoke everything into existence then Jesus was at the beginning but he isn't a separate Co-equal God he is just apart of God.



Do you view Jesus at that point in time as being a part of God not yet revealed? Jesus was not created so this part of God was where? Jesus wasn't spoken into existence as I was.
Where was the Word before the Word was made flesh? When the Word was made flesh, was this flesh also God? In other words was the human part of Jesus, God along with his spirit? Does God being a spirit need the flesh of Jesus to reveal himself?
Will we see or experience Jesus and God in Heaven as two different entities?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 24, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> Think of it this way, In John he said Jesus is the "word" made flesh. I can speak but my voice isn't a separate being or entity and my words resonate from within my bosom. So if Jesus is the word of God and God spoke everything into existence then Jesus was at the beginning but he isn't a separate Co-equal God he is just apart of God.



How do you view creation being made through Jesus? I view it as being made by God for the purpose of Jesus. I don't picture Jesus doing the creation. 
I guess I don't picture Jesus being a mini-me, coming out of God at various times to do various tasks or missions.


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## Harbuck (Dec 25, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> How do you view creation being made through Jesus? I view it as being made by God for the purpose of Jesus. I don't picture Jesus doing the creation.
> I guess I don't picture Jesus being a mini-me, coming out of God at various times to do various tasks or missions.



If God spoke everything into existence and we know that Jesus is the word of God made flesh then wouldn't it be fair to say that Jesus "the word" is the seed of all creation. God spoke "it" and "it" what ever "it" was came forth. example God said "spoke" let there be light. That seed of "word" went forth and light was created. Again Jesus is just apart of and the fullness of God not another God. Not a mini me either. You must remember that there is no beginning or end to God when I speak of creation I'm speaking about our creation, not Gods. So since God stands outside of time then all things are already done to him so in this way of thinking to God Jesus had already come died and was risen. David had already killed the Giant and we had already had this conversation God has just been waiting on us to catch up with what he already knows. But that doesn't mean that our fates are already decided. I believe that God sees the out come of all the choices that we could make but let's us choose our own path. "free will"


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 25, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> If God spoke everything into existence and we know that Jesus is the word of God made flesh then wouldn't it be fair to say that Jesus "the word" is the seed of all creation. God spoke "it" and "it" what every "it" was came forth. example God said "spoke" let there be light. That seed of "word" went forth and light was created. Again Jesus is just apart of and the fullness of God not another God. Not a mini me either. You must remember that there is no beginning or end to God when I speak of creation I'm speaking about our creation, not Gods. So since God stands outside of time then all things are already done to him so in this way of thinking to God Jesus had already come died and was risen. David had already killed the Giant and we had already had this conversation God has just been waiting on us to catch up with what he already knows. But that doesn't mean that our fates are already decided. I believe that God sees the out come of all the choices that we could make but let's us choose our own path. "free will"



Merry Christmas to all this morning!

Thanks for sharing that. I'll have to study that for awhile. It's more believable by this explanation than Jesus being with or next to God from the beginning as a separate entity. 
I guess with God being outside of time everything has already happened and in that respect Jesus was with God from the beginning as was my creation/being. Jesus the man/soul that is. Jesus the man/soul was created/made. Jesus the man/soul resurrected. Jesus the man/soul born on this day ascended into Heaven, correct?
The physical part of Jesus was created/made and was born on this day. That part of Jesus prayed to his Father. That part of Jesus has a separate soul as you stated. That part of Jesus is in Heaven with his Father, God. 
"Part" not being the best word maybe. Some of his flesh was from God being God is his Father.


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## Harbuck (Dec 26, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Glad your here Harbuck. Your input will be appreciated. Great bunch of guys hear, always respectable of others beliefs



Thank You. I look forward to many great conversations.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 26, 2014)

Reading some more about Oneness:
The body of Jesus Christ was the Son. The Sonship is merely the body of Jesus life from the Spirit of God. Hebrews 10:1-10, God prepared Himself a body to dwell in, so that He could be our sacrifice for sin, once and for all time.


Was Jesus Created Or Did He
Exist Before His Birth?

Jesus was begotten John 3:16.   Matt: 1:18-23 tells of His birth. Luke 1:26-35 His birth, a body of flesh. This body of flesh was created, begotten by the Holy Ghost, or the Spirit of God, John 4:24. God is a spirit. He got His life from the spirit of God, but He got His body from Mary. Matt. 1:18-23; Luke 1:26-35. He was the only begotten son of God. He was the seed of David, John 7:42. The body did not exist before the foundation of the world, only in the mind and blueprint of God, or the Plan of God. 

God planned this glory for the son and loved the son before the foundation of the world. Knowing that the human race would fall into sin. He foreordained the Plan of Salvation based on the birth, death, burial and resurrection of the son of God. For as much as you know that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, such as silver and gold, with your vain conversations received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ. As of a Lamb without blemish, and without spot. Who verily was foreordained from the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you. I Corin 1:18-20. Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Jesus Christ was not actually born before the creation of the world, nor was He actually crucified at that time, but in the plan of God the atoning sacrifice of Christ was a foreordained, certain, event. God does not inhabit time as we do:  The past, present and future are all alike to him. He calls those things that be not as though they were Romans 4:17. He created the world with the Son in view, predicating all creation upon the future arrival and atonement of the Son of God.

http://www.keytotheendtimerevival.com/wasjesuscreated.html


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 26, 2014)

Before the incarnation the spirit of Jesus was the one eternal God, not a second person. The glory of which Jesus spake was the glory He as a man would have in the fulfillment of God foreordained plan of redemption for the human race. That was what Jesus looked forward to as He prayed and that was what He asked the father to give Him, so that He could share it with all believers. 

The only way that we will ever see God, is in the body of Jesus Christ. One sits on the throne, and His Name one, Rev. 4:2; Zech. 14:10.  

When God said "let us make man in our image" Genesis 1:26, He was not speaking to another person in the godhead. He was looking forward 4,000 years when Jesus Christ would come into the world and die on the cross to pay for the sins of the world.

In the mind and blueprint or plan of God, Jesus Christ was crucified before the foundation of the earth. God spake of things that were not as though they were already. Romans 4:17. We know that Jesus was not actually slain before the foundation of the world, but the earth was made with the Son in view in the plan of God. 

The Holy Ghost
I Corinthians 12:3
Romans 8:9-11 - ACTS 1:8
Hebrews 10:14-16 - Luke 11:1-13

    A Ghost is the spirit of a departed one. The Holy Ghost is the spirit of Jesus. 
    Jesus said I am with you but I shall be in you - John 14:17, See Luke 4:1. All of God was in Jesus - John 3:34,35; John 3:13. Jesus was on earth and in heaven at same time.
    The Holy Ghost is the comforter John 14:16,17; John 14:26; John 16:7. Jesus said nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient, or necessary for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the comforter will not come to you; but if I depart I will send him unto you. 
    Jesus said I will not leave you comfortless, I will come to you John 14:18. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Christ. - See Romans 8:9-11.

http://www.keytotheendtimerevival.com/theholyghost.html


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 26, 2014)

"The Right Hand of God"

When we speak of the right hand of God, we are not talking of a physical right hand. The right hand of God always denotes the power of God.  

The Resurrection
Was It Bodily Or Spiritually?

When Jesus died the spirit of God lifted from Him. Mark 15:34; Luke 23:46. The Son, or body, died, the spirit of God that filled that body did not die. James 2:26. The body without the spirit is dead. The sonship is merely the fleshly body of Jesus Christ and when the spirit of God lifted from that body the son of God was dead, but God was not dead. The spirit merely lifted from that body. When Jesus said, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me. The spirit of God was being lifted from that body. On the third day Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus said destroy this temple and I will raise it up in three days, meaning, the spirit of God that dwelt in Him, would raise His body from the dead. Jesus was raised from the dead by His own power. In John 14 Jesus said I am in the Father and the Father is in me. The Father, or the spirit of God, raised the son, or body of Jesus Christ from the grave.

http://www.keytotheendtimerevival.com/theresurrection.html


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## Harbuck (Dec 26, 2014)

I agree with pretty much all of what you wrote.


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## Harbuck (Dec 26, 2014)

People keep looking for the time when Jesus is coming back But in actuality he did on the day of Pentecost. He lives within his people.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 26, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> People keep looking for the time when Jesus is coming back But in actuality he did on the day of Pentecost. He lives within his people.



Does this mean he isn't coming back again? What about his return in 70AD?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 26, 2014)

One parting discussion I was reading before bed, Oneness centers  around the incarnation:

The question before us, then, is what model (or starting point) does the most justice to the Biblical data. While every theological position has its own difficulties, which theological position more adequately preserves Biblical monotheism, while at the same time accounting for and explaining the distinctions we find in the NT: Trinitarianism or Oneness theology?

Specifically, is the Holy Spirit an aspect of God's one person just like our spirit is an aspect of our one person (I Cor 2:11), or is the Holy Spirit a reference to a distinct person within God? If the latter, why did the OT not make this explicit and why is the NT data so lacking for such a conclusion?

While Oneness theology recognizes a distinction between the Father and Son, is such a distinction due to God's incarnation in human existence (a distinction between God's existence beyond the incarnation and God's existence as man in the incarnation), or is such a distinction between distinct, eternal persons? If it is between eternal persons, why weren't these persons revealed until the incarnation?

We must also ask why, if God is eternally Father, is He never called "God the Father" until the NT? It seems strange that God is rarely referred to as Father, and never referred to as Son until God fathered a son (while "Father" appears approximately 12 times in the OT in reference to God, it is used in ways quite different than in the NT). Father and Son are relational terms used in the context of begetting a child. Did God beget a child? Yes, in the incarnation. Would this account for the lack of such a term in the OT, and the nearly exclusive use of such a term for God in the NT? Yes.

Seeing that the incarnation brought about a distinction between God's human mode of existence and that same God's continued existence transcendent to the incarnation as God, it is better to understand Father and Son to refer to God's dual mode of existence rather than to eternal relationships within the Godhead. After all, it is not until the NT that we find any distinctions in reference to God, and the emergence of Father-Son terminology. Understanding the Father-Son distinction incarnationally might also explain the apparent lack of evidence for a distinct person of the Spirit. The OT speaks of the Spirit often, but it was always understood to be a reference to YHWH, referring to His nature as Spirit and activity in creation. The NT often makes a distinction between the Father and Son, but rarely distinguishes the Father, Son, and Spirit.

What model best explains the Biblical insistence on monotheism, the lack of any distinction in God's person in the OT, the emergence of Father-Son terminology only after the incarnation, and the fact that most often only the Father and Son are spoken of using distinction-terminology, to the exclusion of the Spirit? I argue that Oneness theology best accounts for such phenomena, insisting that God is an absolute monad, the Spirit being His very nature and aspect of His person, and the Son being His human mode of existence. Oneness theology best accounts for the rise of the NT distinctions, and the emergence of the appellations "Father" and "Son," because it was not until the NT that God fathered a son, and it was not until the hypostatic union when God incorporated human nature into His person that there arose such a need to make any distinctions in reference to God.

https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100601214317AAhyKDN


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## Harbuck (Dec 26, 2014)

Receiving the Holy Spirit must have been extra awesome for Mary the mother of Jesus because while everyone else was being filled with the presence of Jesus she was filled with the presence of her son again. Could you imagine being filled with the presence of a loved one that you saw die and your heart longed to just be able to feel there presence once more. Only she got to feel his presence forever. Because he will never leave you or forsake you.


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## Harbuck (Dec 26, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does this mean he isn't coming back again? What about his return in 70AD?



I don't know that I have an answer for this question. But the Theory of a rapture is a relatively new concept by a man named John Nelson Darby. This is a good read on the subject. The question I have about the rapture theory is, If the meek are going to inherit the earth then why do we assume that we will live in some place in a far off heaven? Isn't the kingdom of heaven within us? 

http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/magazines/2003/may-june/will-you-be-left-behind


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 27, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> Receiving the Holy Spirit must have been extra awesome for Mary the mother of Jesus because while everyone else was being filled with the presence of Jesus she was filled with the presence of her son again. Could you imagine being filled with the presence of a loved one that you saw die and your heart longed to just be able to feel there presence once more. Only she got to feel his presence forever. Because he will never leave you or forsake you.



I've never thought of the Holy Spirit as being the Holy Ghost of Jesus. After Jesus was baptized God the Father said something like,  this is my Son whom I'm well pleased. Who was God pleased with?

If God can only be revealed by Jesus on earth, why is this necessary in Heaven? I do understand Heaven might be on the Earth as discussed. Either way if we are spirits and God is a spirit, why will Jesus be needed? Did the Son only appear as Saviour and only existed as Son for his short time on Earth? Is God being spirit back to being God and Jesus is now no longer around after the Pentecost, returning only as the Holy Spirit?


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## Harbuck (Dec 27, 2014)

As you know I believe that they are all the same spirit.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 27, 2014)

When speaking of what oneness believes, for clarity to those who are not familiar, I have always said that they believe God's name is Jesus. Is this a fair description?


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## Harbuck (Dec 27, 2014)

That's what I believe.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 27, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> That's what I believe.



I thought Oneness was believing God was only Jesus when he incarnated as a man. Jesus was the image of God. Was Jesus God incarnate or God indwelling?
Where is Jesus the man as we speak? Jesus the man being  his soul, spirit, or glorified body? His human part? He was fully human and fully God, where is his human part? 
This human soul part of Jesus that is sitting at the right hand of God. It is irrelevant whether the “right hand” of God is stated as being figurative or literal, either way it denotes Jesus at a position to someone other than himself.
The human soul that has entered Heaven as a High Priest?
The human soul that is making intercession for us?

(Hebrews 9:24) “For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:”

If the deity of God dwelling in Jesus returned to Heaven and is now called Jesus instead of God, where is the human soul of Jesus? The one that had his own will?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 27, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> *
> when God dwelled or became Jesus, did Jesus keep his human soul/spirit? Yes I believe that Jesus had his own soul/Personality but his spirit is God's spirit. This is why he can be God and also be the advocate to the father "the spirit" on our behalf. Jesus's soul or personality can relate to being human thus is able to have compassion on mankind and plead in our defense to his spirit "the father". remember that we to have body soul and spirit. but we are still one creature. "oneness"
> 
> When God became Jesus did he stop being the Father or Holy Spirit? No, God is the Great I am he is everything and in everything. The only thing that limits God in our thinking is just that. "our thinking" it's hard for our minds to wrap it self around what it the vastness and complexities of God. "I AM everything you will ever need, want or desire. think of it this way God spoke "the word" everything into existence so if Jesus is the word as John states then the word is the "seed" of all creation thus Jesus has always been part of the father or God.*


*

I really like this concept. Jesus can be God and the advocate. Although you see God becoming Jesus, I do agree with your views on the Word  meaning  the "seed." We both see God as becoming Jesus. You believe he literally became his Father and I as the image of his Father. If you have seen me, you have seen my Father has been revealed differently to me than you.
I see Jesus as being the image of the invisible God. We do agree about the Word being in the Heart of God in the beginning.
I see God dwelling in Jesus the man. This man being the Son of God. 
Realizing Jesus being the Word/seed as we both do, when do you see God becoming Jesus? When God became human? If this is when God became Jesus, known usually as the incarnation, why is God still Jesus? 
I believe Jesus was born a man and was indwelled by God.
Perhaps his spirit was God's spirit as you believe. I can go along with that belief. Still though as you believe, I agree, Jesus had two natures, one human and one God, both fully each.  His spirit being anointed from his Father and his soul being that of a man.  
That being said and as you stated, Jesus has a human soul.
The soul is as much of our human nature as our bodies. It's what makes us humans. Without a soul we would just be another animal.
This soul of Jesus was one of his two natures that made up his own will. Jesus spoke of his soul and of his will. A will being different from God's will. This is the part of Jesus that prayed to his Father. His soul which is a part of his flesh.
Now I don't understand how God gave his Son his DNA and or made Mary pregnant. That is and will be a great mystery that really isn't much of a concern of ours but that process doesn't make Jesus his Father. His Father's DNA makes him the Son of God. His power comes from the indwelling of his Father's spirit. We only get a measure of his Father's spirit, Jesus gets all of it. Everything Jesus the man who is the Son of God does comes from the power of his Father. 
Jesus is the Christ which means he is anointed. This means he isn't equal to his Father. This means he was given the power or Spirit of his Father. Again, perhaps he doesn't have his own spirit but he does have his own soul.

(John 14:10) “the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me.”

(1 Timothy 2:5) “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus”

(Acts 10:38) “How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.”

(Hebrews 1:9) “Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.”

This annointed man we call "the Christ," having the spirit of God by the annointing, where is his soul?
This man that God removed his spirit from as you mentioned as he took on the sins of the world, where is his soul?*


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 27, 2014)

Jesus is the Son of God who is the Christ. He was anointed by God to be the Messiah. In order to receive salvation one must believe Jesus was born a man and died for our sins. 
Beyond this belief which is required for salvation no one really knows all the mysteries of the Trinity or Oneness of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. 
It has all been revealed to each of us differently. Perhaps Jesus is God the Father as the same. Perhaps he is 1/3 of the same but equal entity of God. Perhaps he is even an adopted son anointed by OUR Father. 
None of us fully understand as much as we make out like we do. These discussions prove this. It is a mystery.
Was Jesus God incarnate or was Jesus indwelled by God fully. 
There is one God and one mediator between man and God. Beyond that we all have formed our own beliefs as revealed to us by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is God's spirit or by His Word which perhaps is the spirit of God.
God was manifest or revealed by Jesus. 

Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"?

Now that is the importance of son ship. 
Amen for the gift of the Son of God!


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## Harbuck (Dec 27, 2014)

The spirit that is God and the soul of Jesus indwells in the body of Christ and is seated on the Throne of heaven. I have a body a soul and a spirit also but I'm still Harbuck. "The fullness of the Godhead bodily" This makes perfect since to me. I really don't know how else to exsplain it.


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## Harbuck (Dec 27, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> There’s only one Lord (Zechariah 14:9; Acts 2:36, 10:36), one faith (Mark 16:16; John 3:5-17; Jude v. 3), and one baptism unto salvation (Acts 2:38-22:16) says Ephesians 4:5. There are the baptisms of tongues and of fire, but only One unto salvation. If Jesus is the way, truth, door and life to God, then why would anyone use any other name? Jesus is the name of the father (John 5:43), son (Matt 1:21) and Holy Spirit/Ghost (John 14:26). In fact it’s the family name of God! (Ephesians 3:14-15)



Reference this post.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 28, 2014)

Harbuck, I would like to ask some questions but I would not want to seem as though I am attacking your faith. I like when others ask me about my faith. Questions like, how does your belief system deal with John 20:28, of which I have a reasonable answer. If I recall I only have about two of which I have to say, I have no reasonable answer, or about 2 more that I add is "a hard sell". My point is that I would like to learn more about the oneness argument without it seeming like I am attacking your faith.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 28, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> The spirit that is God and the soul of Jesus indwells in the body of Christ and is seated on the Throne of heaven. I have a body a soul and a spirit also but I'm still Harbuck. "The fullness of the Godhead bodily" This makes perfect since to me. I really don't know how else to exsplain it.



You explained it well. You see God still within the body of Jesus in Heaven. You see the fullness of the Godhead bodily as the way Jesus & God are today in Heaven. If I went to Heaven today, I would see only one throne with Jesus as God sitting on it. 
I'm assuming it is Jesus the man's spiritual body/soul and the spirit of God? I will not see God on one throne and Jesus to the right but only Jesus still being the "fullness" of the Godhead. Oneness in other words. No separation.
No separate Mediator from that oneness of Jesus the God. When Jesus became the fullness of God he stayed that way except briefly when God's spirit left him at his physical death. Jesus was briefly left without a spirit but gained it back after the resurrection. His only spirit, the spirit of God. Oneness.

I too am trying to learn about your faith and I hope you don't feel like I'm attacking your faith either. I don't recall having a Oneness believer on the forum before so we might appear to be coming on a little strong at times.
You are doing an outstanding job explaining your faith.
Please bear with me as I was reared a Trinitarian. I would venture to say most on this forum are Trinitarians with a few JW's, Mormons, & Unitarians. 
Thanks for sharing and explaining Oneness.


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## Harbuck (Dec 28, 2014)

I don't feel that your attacking me or coming on strong. I just get frustrated with myself because It all makes perfect since to me but I struggle to communicate what I am thinking. I have really enjoyed our talks.


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## Harbuck (Dec 28, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Harbuck, I would like to ask some questions but I would not want to seem as though I am attacking your faith. I like when others ask me about my faith. Questions like, how does your belief system deal with John 20:28, of which I have a reasonable answer. If I recall I only have about two of which I have to say, I have no reasonable answer, or about 2 more that I add is "a hard sell". My point is that I would like to learn more about the oneness argument without it seeming like I am attacking your faith.



In verse 17 Jesus told Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to the Father. " His body that had became sin had not yet been Glorified" The sin that his flesh became for us, died out on the cross. if she would have touched his now pure vessel before it was Glorified the sin that was on her would have polluted him. You'll notice that in verse 26 Eight days had pasted before he made himself known to Thomas. He had at that time already been Glorified. Or that's how I'm seeing it anyway. I don't know that another oneness believer would agree but that is my interpretation of the word here. I may be wrong? Remember that Jesus never sinned himself, He was made sin. So sin had no claim on his body/soul. He was/is both Lord and God.


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## Harbuck (Dec 28, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Harbuck, I would like to ask some questions but I would not want to seem as though I am attacking your faith. I like when others ask me about my faith. Questions like, how does your belief system deal with John 20:28, of which I have a reasonable answer. If I recall I only have about two of which I have to say, I have no reasonable answer, or about 2 more that I add is "a hard sell". My point is that I would like to learn more about the oneness argument without it seeming like I am attacking your faith.



1gr8bldr what is your belief? Also I'm sorry if I came off as being a jerk.


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## Harbuck (Dec 28, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> You explained it well. You see God still within the body of Jesus in Heaven. You see the fullness of the Godhead bodily as the way Jesus & God are today in Heaven. If I went to Heaven today, I would see only one throne with Jesus as God sitting on it.
> I'm assuming it is Jesus the man's spiritual body/soul and the spirit of God? I will not see God on one throne and Jesus to the right but only Jesus still being the "fullness" of the Godhead. Oneness in other words. No separation.
> No separate Mediator from that oneness of Jesus the God. When Jesus became the fullness of God he stayed that way except briefly when God's spirit left him at his physical death. Jesus was briefly left without a spirit but gained it back after the resurrection. His only spirit, the spirit of God. Oneness.
> 
> ...



What is a Unitarian? or I guess I should ask what is their belief?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 28, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> What is a Unitarian? or I guess I should ask what is their belief?



Christian Unitarians or Unitarianism shouldn't be confused with Unitarian Universalists. Unitarian Universalism is a liberal religion of Christian background characterized by a "free and responsible search for truth and meaning."

Christian Unitarians on the other hand believe Jesus is the only way, truth, and light for salvation but they don't believe Jesus is God. They do believe he was the Messiah and used the power of God to perform miracles, etc.
Their beliefs differ on exactly who Jesus is from supernatural  being, adopted Son of God, actual Son of God, prophet, but not God incarnated. 
They feel as you do that the Trinity belief takes away from there being only one God. They don't believe as you do that God became a man. 
They view it more as Jesus was indwelled by the fullness of the Godhead. He had the full spirit of God indwelling in him. Many believe as do I, that Jesus literally became the son of God when he was conceived by the Holy Spirit. It is a mystery but somehow Jesus has half of his human DNA from God and half from his mother.
Many believe Jesus has a preexistence like Trinitarians and many believe as you do that this preexistance was in the mind or Word of God. God being outside of time and God seeing everything as already happened.
Many believe Jesus became the Son of God at His baptism following:
Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"?

Perhaps being anointed "the Christ" at this time. The Holy Spirit isn't seen as a separate part of God or the Ghost of Jesus but is just the spirit of God. Many believe Jesus received God's spirit at his baptism by way of anointing.

Just as Oneness believers they only believe in ONE God. they just don't believe Jesus is this ONE God. Naturally they don't separate God into three different persons.
Individuals within this faith  are as varied in beliefs as Protestants, Trinitarians, and Oneness believers.


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## Harbuck (Dec 28, 2014)

Thanks for the explanation. It seems to be closer to what I believe than The Trinity but still a good deal different. I would like to clarify that what I post as my beliefs on the oneness are just that "my beliefs" I'm not sure if my fellow bros. and sisters will totally agree with everything that I've posted but in the 34 years that I've been on this earth it's what I've come to accept of who God is to me.


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## Harbuck (Dec 28, 2014)

More info on mainstream oneness beliefs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneness_Pentecostalism

http://www.upci.org/about-us/beliefs

http://www.upci.org/about-us/beliefs/21-about-us/beliefs/91


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 28, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> 1gr8bldr what is your belief? Also I'm sorry if I came off as being a jerk.


I never saw any of your post as being a jerk. As Art said, we have not had many oneness believers. We like variety because we learn from all. We like to think we are apologists so we like to learn both sides of the coin, not just the side we like. But I wanted to be clear that we were inquisitive, not attacking. I understand your point of "seeing things so clearly", I call it "fitting like a glove". I am Unitarian in the sense that if trins believe in a tri God, it stands to reason that me believing in a uni God with no divisions would be Unitarian. I have never had Unitarian teaching, been a part of any group, or met another Unitarian.  At Carm, my quote is "Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ". I think this sums up my belief


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 28, 2014)

Harbuck said:


> Thanks for the explanation. It seems to be closer to what I believe than The Trinity but still a good deal different. I would like to clarify that what I post as my beliefs on the oneness are just that "my beliefs" I'm not sure if my fellow bros. and sisters will totally agree with everything that I've posted but in the 34 years that I've been on this earth it's what I've come to accept of who God is to me.



That is what I like about you, expressing your beliefs instead of a denomination. I'm sure my beliefs don't line up perfectly with anyone's as most other Christian's beliefs don't either. 
We do like to use labels for others and I really don't have a problem with that. As with other aspects of life, many don't like the labels of others used to describe us. I was reading my Great Grandfather's obit recently from the newspaper and it said he was a Holy Roller. I found that strange as I believe he was Church of God. 
It is hard to explain something to others that's clear in your own mind. Explanations of candle flames and Ice, Water, & Steam don't help me much but I do know brothers using those analogies are only trying to help.

I haven't visited your Mainstream Oneness links yet but wanted to share one I found. I don't think this one is Mainstream Oneness. I do feel we share more in common than Trinitarian but still very different from each other.

http://www.theonenessofgod.org/


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 29, 2014)

Interesting read:

A few weeks ago I posted an article (“From Trinitarian to Unitarian“) that was a faith story of a woman that had been a long-term main-stream trinitarian Christian who came to take a long hard look at her beliefs versus the truth of Scripture.  After doing so, she changed her beliefs to align with what she actually found in Scripture.

This week I wanted to post a story of another person who happened to have come from a slightly different Christological background.  The man’s name is Joel Hemphill.  And for those of you who don’t recognize the name, Joel is lifelong Gospel music singer, songwriter, composer, and minister. His distinguished list of accomplishments in the Gospel music industry include being nominated by the Gospel Music Association ten times for song writer of the year, receiving six Dove Awards and being inducted into the Louisiana Songwriters Hall of Fame and in 2007 into the Southern Gospel Music Hall of Fame.  Yet Joel was not a Trinitarian. Joel was a Oneness or “Jesus Only” believer all his life.  He believed that Jesus was God though meaning that Jesus was the Father and the Son as one person – not three persons in one God (like the Trinity).  Despite after nearly half a century in this belief, in 2005 Joel felt God speak to him and to examine his beliefs against the truth of Scripture.  In doing so, Joel came to finally see that Jesus was the Son of God – the Messiah, and not God Himself.

http://lhim.org/blog/2010/02/13/from-oneness-to-unitarian/


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 29, 2014)

From Trinitarian to Unitarian

The theology I was taught, and believed, from adolescence through most of my adult years I call evangelical orthodoxy. Some major doctrines are the Trinity, the dual nature of Christ, salvation by faith evidenced by works, eternal security, the pre-tribulation rapture of the church, the immortality of the human soul with immediate heaven or he11 after death, and the everlasting suffering of the darned in he11.

I have now firmly rejected the orthodox doctrines of the Trinity, the dual nature of Christ, the immortality of the human soul, he11 as everlasting torment, “going to heaven” as the reward of the faithful, and eternal security in the sense of “once saved, always saved.” I have now firmly embraced what I believe to be the Bible’s clear teaching of the absolute unity of God, the true humanity of Jesus Christ as the Son of God who came into being in the womb of a virgin, the sleep of the dead, and the final destruction of those who are unrepentant and of apostates. I believe the promise to believers of resurrection to immortality in the coming kingdom of God on earth to be an integral part of the Gospel message.

I’m looking forward to life in the coming Kingdom. What sort of responsibility will I qualify for? Whatever it may be, it will be a welcome challenge, unsullied by personal failure or defeat.

And after that? All evil will be judged and destroyed, and I will live forever in blissful intimacy with God and Jesus and everyone else who remains. I’ll be able to use the water of everlasting life to paint the full color of meaning into the promise that is only a black and white sketch to me now. I’m sure it will be worth the wait.

http://lhim.org/blog/2010/01/16/from-trinitarian-to-unitarian/

Her journey sounds like my journey to the Light.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 29, 2014)

Hello Harbuck, trins say that only God could pay the sin debt so therefore God had to become a man to accomplish this. Do Oneness agree with this?


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## EverGreen1231 (Dec 29, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello Harbuck, trins say that only God could pay the sin debt so therefore God had to become a man to accomplish this. Do Oneness agree with this?



Can't speak for hardbuck, but, according to what I've read, I seem to be a oneness believer; I would agree to this. There is only one God, his name is Jesus.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 29, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> Can't speak for hardbuck, but, according to what I've read, I seem to be a oneness believer; I would agree to this. There is only one God, his name is Jesus.


Thanks


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 29, 2014)

As I study Jesus, I compare him to Adam in many ways. Adam had God's DNA from creation. I believe Jesus had God's DNA from creation and Mary's DNA making him fully man, indwelled fully by the Holy Spirit.
This belief isn't just a Unitarian belief other than me believing Jesus was  the Son of God receiving his power from God. Meaning you could still believe Jesus is God and also believe he got his Father's DNA through the mystery of his Father's creation. Many Trinitarians and Oneness believers believe Jesus had two natures one fully God and one fully human. For Jesus to be fully human he had to have his Father's DNA unless he was adopted.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 29, 2014)

Some excerpts of what I've been reading about this belief from someone who believes Jesus is God:

According to the Bible, Adam was created in God’s image  approximately 6000 years ago. Now that we are beginning to understand DNA, we can determine Adam’s DNA; and by understanding Adam’s DNA, and how it relates to us, we can make some significant progress in understanding who we really are and how we fit into the Kingdom of God.

Genesis 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (KJV)

So, Adam became a living soul, the first living soul. This means that he necessarily had all of the human genetic variations in his DNA. Everyone, including Eve, came from Adam’s DNA. Every human being has two sets of genes, one from their father and one from their mother.

http://www.genesisandgenetics.org/2011/09/12/adams-dna/#more-9


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 31, 2014)

To bring this thread back on topic let's discuss:

1 Corinthians 15:45
NASB
So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 

KJV
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

How did Jesus become a life giving spirit? Was it actually the spirit of Jesus giving others life or was it by the sacrifice, death, and resurrection of Jesus?

From a Oneness view depending on which interpretation is being read, it appears the spirit of Jesus is the life giving spirit. That Jesus quickened himself.

From a Trinitarian view, it is the Father.  

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that [now] dwelleth in you.  
Romans 8:11

I think that "he" is God the Father. 

Jesus was literally raised out of death when his lifeless human corpse was brought to life by God the Father.  God placed the human spirit and/or soul of Jesus back into his resurrected body.
This body was changed into a glorified body that ascended to Heaven in some form that sits at the right hand of God.

I guess what I'm struggling with from any view is this question. Where is the human soul/spirit of Jesus the man?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 9, 2015)

John's revelation;

Revelation 5:4-9
I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, "Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals."
6 Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
7 He went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who sat on the throne. (I'm assuming this is God)
8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God's people.
9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

They changed their tune from the Lion opening the scroll to the Lamb opening the scroll.

My point is John saw God sitting on his throne and the Lamb before God.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 9, 2015)

Revelation 5:12:13
In a loud voice they were saying: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!"
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"

Again John saw God sitting on his throne and the Lamb opening the sealed scrolls.

Revelation 7:10
And they cried out in a loud voice: "Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

I'm having a really hard time seeing the Lamb as being the one sitting on the throne. I might have to put on my other eyes.

Revelation 7:15
Therefore, "they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will shelter them with his presence.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
(the Lamb is in the midst of the throne shall lead them and God(on the throne) shall wipe away their tears.)


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## GunnSmokeer (Jan 9, 2015)

I haven't had time to read all 9 pages of this thread so far, but as I read my bible and read bible commentary and hear preaching, I'm leaning against the Godhead as 3 distinct persons but all the same one God.  I see one God who has a son. I assume and believe that God came first and is the superior being, although when it comes to dealing with humans and the fate of earth God may have given Jesus 100% power to deal with us. Full delegation of all God's authority on those matters. As for this "Holy Spirit" thing, I am still not sure what that is, but it sounds more like a force or communication FROM God or Jesus TO a human. It's a thing, not a being, not a person.

A KEY  QUESTION:  Do mainstream Christians (say, Southern Baptists or Methodists) say that everyone who is saved MUST believe in the Trinity and accept that Jesus is God and is not subordinate to God?  Can one accept Jesus as Lord over Man and Earth, and Heaven, without agreeing that Jesus is also the creator of all things for all time?  Can a person worship Jesus thinking that this is what God wants, and that by honoring the Son you honor and obey the Father? Or is that idolatry because if you think of the Father and the Son as not the same being, you would be worshiping some lesser diety and not the true God?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 10, 2015)

GunnSmokeer said:


> A KEY  QUESTION:  Do mainstream Christians (say, Southern Baptists or Methodists) say that everyone who is saved MUST believe in the Trinity and accept that Jesus is God and is not subordinate to God?  Can one accept Jesus as Lord over Man and Earth, and Heaven, without agreeing that Jesus is also the creator of all things for all time?  Can a person worship Jesus thinking that this is what God wants, and that by honoring the Son you honor and obey the Father? Or is that idolatry because if you think of the Father and the Son as not the same being, you would be worshiping some lesser diety and not the true God?



I'm not a mainstream Christian anymore and I don't know the Statements of Faith each hold. Most individual Christians of any denomination don't adhere to every belief of their denomination. They just pick one that closely follows their beliefs which surprisingly is the one they grew up in.
Many Trinitarians believe you must believe in the Trinity in exactly the same way they do for salvation. Many Oneness believe you must believe that there is only one God, manifest in different ways for salvation. Many of the rest of us believe you must believe Jesus isn't God but his son, for salvation.

The reason most given is if you don't believe correctly you believe in a false Jesus or another Jesus. Just say you believe Jesus is his Father and this turns out to be wrong, you believed in the wrong Jesus. If I'm wrong and Jesus is 1/3 of the Godhead then I followed another Jesus.

I can see their point to some extent but beyond believing that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins and arose, I don't see their point.
I believe we are all Christians that believe who Jesus says he is in the Bible.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 10, 2015)

GunnSmokeer said:


> I haven't had time to read all 9 pages of this thread so far, but as I read my bible and read bible commentary and hear preaching, I'm leaning against the Godhead as 3 distinct persons but all the same one God.  I see one God who has a son. I assume and believe that God came first and is the superior being, although when it comes to dealing with humans and the fate of earth God may have given Jesus 100% power to deal with us. Full delegation of all God's authority on those matters. As for this "Holy Spirit" thing, I am still not sure what that is, but it sounds more like a force or communication FROM God or Jesus TO a human. It's a thing, not a being, not a person.



When you get a few minutes read what I posted recently from John's revelation where he saw God on his throne and the Lamb before the throne.

I'm trying to understand how Oneness believers interpret this. I think they believe we will only see the Lamb when we enter the Kingdom representing God. We will see the the Lamb sitting on the throne as the image of the invisible God.
I'm just wondering why John saw both in his revelation if we only get to see God as the Lamb when we enter the Kingdom.


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## centerpin fan (Jan 10, 2015)

GunnSmokeer said:


> A KEY  QUESTION:  Do mainstream Christians (say, Southern Baptists or Methodists) say that everyone who is saved MUST believe in the Trinity and accept that Jesus is God and is not subordinate to God?  Can one accept Jesus as Lord over Man and Earth, and Heaven, without agreeing that Jesus is also the creator of all things for all time?  Can a person worship Jesus thinking that this is what God wants, and that by honoring the Son you honor and obey the Father? Or is that idolatry because if you think of the Father and the Son as not the same being, you would be worshiping some lesser diety and not the true God?



From the SBC website:

"There is one and only one living and true God. …The eternal triune God reveals Himself to us as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, with distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being."

http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/basicbeliefs.asp

This is the "official" Christian belief since the 4th century.




GunnSmokeer said:


> As for this "Holy Spirit" thing, I am still not sure what that is, but it sounds more like a force or communication FROM God or Jesus TO a human. It's a thing, not a being, not a person.








GunnSmokeer said:


> ... as I read my bible and read bible commentary and hear preaching, I'm leaning against the Godhead as 3 distinct persons but all the same one God.



I really doubt the people you're reading and listening to believe that, so I'm curious how you came to that conclusion.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 10, 2015)

From the SBC website:

God the Son

Christ is the eternal Son of God. In His incarnation as Jesus Christ, He was conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. …He honored the divine law by His personal obedience, and in His substitutionary death on the cross, He made provision for the redemption of men from sin.

http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/basicbeliefs.asp

I can't fully understand how Jesus can be the eternal Son of God and yet God incarnated at the same time.
The Oneness belief that God incarnated as Jesus when he became a man is more believable. If Jesus is in fact God incarnated then it would have to be when He incarnated as a Man. God became a man. He was the image of the invisible God.

If Jesus was eternal and with God from the beginning then God didn't incarnate as Jesus. One can't incarnate into something else if that "something else" is already present. Under the Trinity belief, the eternal Christ became Jesus, not God the Father. The eternal Christ just came to earth as a man, not God the Father. The eternal Christ incarnated as man. Christ became Jesus.

I think this is the problem Oneness believers have too. They only see Jesus as God incarnate. To them Jesus is his Father incarnated into the Man, Jesus. They believe God incarnated as Jesus when he became a man.Today in Heaven Jesus is God. Once God incarnated as Jesus he stayed that way.
God the Father became Jesus not an eternal Christ becoming Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 10, 2015)

One thing I thought of was Trinitarians see the Oneness God manifested in flesh praying  to  God the  Spirit.
Oneness believers wonder what reason the Trinitarian  God the Son would pray to God the Father if both are co-equal.  
One only prays to their superior, and one they need dependence on.
Regardless to either belief God incarnate or the eternal Christ incarnate makes two persons. One subordinate to the other. Regardless of either belief once incarnated as a man the incarnation lost is deity and therefore became subordinate.
The man needed to pray to God. It was not deity praying to deity, but the Son of God, a genuine human being, praying to God.
I guess either belief is a bit of a struggle in explaining certain aspects of the Son of God.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 10, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> From the SBC website:
> 
> God the Son
> 
> ...


This will not be taken well.. but it is the realization of what trins believe. The pre existent god the son changed to be a sperm of his father which was delivered to Mary via the HS and then Mary's egg was fertilized by the Fathers sperm which was really Jesus. It is not as simple as saying Jesus became a man. We have the Father and the HS involved. And the word used is conception. Taking two parts dependant upon one another and they together produce something that was not before


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 10, 2015)

Oneness believes that only God could pay man's sin debt. But in oneness, God becomes a man, and that God/Jesus raised himself from the dead. Problem is that they are still in their sins because their God did not die. If he was capable of raising himself, he was not "dead"


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 10, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Oneness believes that only God could pay man's sin debt. But in oneness, God becomes a man, and that God/Jesus raised himself from the dead. Problem is that they are still in their sins because their God did not die. If he was capable of raising himself, he was not "dead"



Don't Trinitarians believe that only God could pay man's sin debt?


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## gemcgrew (Jan 10, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> If he was capable of raising himself, he was not "dead"


If you were capable of washing yourself, you were not "dirty".


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 10, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> This will not be taken well.. but it is the realization of what trins believe. The pre existent god the son changed to be a sperm of his father which was delivered to Mary via the HS and then Mary's egg was fertilized by the Fathers sperm which was really Jesus. It is not as simple as saying Jesus became a man. We have the Father and the HS involved. And the word used is conception. Taking two parts dependant upon one another and they together produce something that was not before



I guess Oneness would be this scenario;
Jesus not pre-existing before being born a man, became his Father when his Father's sperm was delivered to Mary via the Holy Spirit and fertilized her egg.

One could say in either scenerio that God just provided the sperm in a supernatural way that made Jesus human. I guess in the way he made Adam human in a supernatural mystery. The supernatural sperm just made him human not the Son. The son came in when God placed his spirit in the newborn.
Then he placed his spirit in this newborn child. Depending on ones belief this new child had his own spirit along with God's spirit, only the spirit of the pre-existing Christ, or only the spirit of God.

Some Trinitarians don't believe Jesus became God's son until he was born. They do still believe the Christ pre-existed. He just didn't become the Son until his incarnation.
Some Christians believe he became God's Son at his baptism. It was the anointing with God's spirit that made Jesus the Son. Yet others believe he became God's son at his resurrection.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 10, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Don't Trinitarians believe that only God could pay man's sin debt?


Yes, and most say Jesus raised himself. Dead is incapable of anything


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 10, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Yes, and most say Jesus raised himself. Dead is incapable of anything



I didn't think that was a Trinitarian belief. I thought they believed God the Father raised his son from the grave, either directly or through the Holy Spirit.

I've always wondered why an omnipotent God sometimes uses his own power and yet sometimes uses his power through the Holy Spirit, angels, Jesus, or humans.

Examples would be like sending Jesus to Saul, angels to check out Sodom, Holy Spirit to Mary,  or humans to gather lost souls.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 11, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I didn't think that was a Trinitarian belief. I thought they believed God the Father raised his son from the grave, either directly or through the Holy Spirit.
> 
> I've always wondered why an omnipotent God sometimes uses his own power and yet sometimes uses his power through the Holy Spirit, angels, Jesus, or humans.
> 
> Examples would be like sending Jesus to Saul, angels to check out Sodom, Holy Spirit to Mary,  or humans to gather lost souls.


No, they do believe he raised himself. A thread at Carm has been going on for months about this. Two verses...is what their idea comes from,  trying to recall my argument... He say something like "I lay my life down that I may take it up again". But The verse is mistranslated, LOL, who would do such a thing. The word is clearly not "take it up again" it is so "that I may receive it back again". That greek word is always translated as receive, yet not here. So he lays his life down that he may receive it [life]. The other verse is "tear down this temple and raise it again" which is ambiguous plus is not literal, but an analogy of things yet to come when he said this, and all analogys are not every word correct, but correct in theme. They force Jesus as raising himself based on these two verses. There are over twelve that say God raised Jesus from the dead. I have argued that even if I were trin, I would not force himself to have raised himself. But no one on the hundreds of trins at Carm will take that stand.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 11, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I didn't think that was a Trinitarian belief. I thought they believed God the Father raised his son from the grave, either directly or through the Holy Spirit.
> 
> I've always wondered why an omnipotent God sometimes uses his own power and yet sometimes uses his power through the Holy Spirit, angels, Jesus, or humans.
> 
> Examples would be like sending Jesus to Saul, angels to check out Sodom, Holy Spirit to Mary,  or humans to gather lost souls.


Rom 8:11 is probably what you have in mind. It would seem that trins believing in the HS as a third person would take this as the HS raising Jesus, but they don't. Being Unitarian, I see it as the spirit of God raising Jesus. Some translations go as far as to say in Rom 8;11 that the word is Holy Spirit, but that is not true. It is "spirit" only in the greek


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## hobbs27 (Jan 11, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Dead is incapable of anything



Because Christ rose...I will always be capable of anything.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 11, 2015)

Acts 2:24
But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.

Acts 2:31-33
David was looking into the future and speaking of the Messiah's resurrection. He was saying that God would not leave him among the dead or allow his body to rot in the grave.
32 "God raised Jesus from the dead, and we are all witnesses of this.
33 Now he is exalted to the place of highest honor in heaven, at God's right hand. And the Father, as he had promised, gave him the Holy Spirit to pour out upon us, just as you see and hear today.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 11, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Acts 2:24
> But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.
> 
> Acts 2:31-33
> ...


Many more than just  these.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 12, 2015)

I thought under the Trinitarian view, Jesus emptied himself of deity.(kenosis)
If this is the case, Jesus could not resurrect himself.
Even though he was the Christ incarnated as a man, he emptied himself of his powers and used the power of his Father to perform miracles etc. He prayed to his Father.(God) He didn't have the information of his Father. Only his Father was good. 
His Father was greater than he. It was his Father's doctrine. He was taught by his Father. He performed his works in his Father's name. His Father was superior. When did Jesus  become a co-equal with God again,  back in Heaven?
I guess the point I'm making is, how could he resurrect himself?


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 12, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought under the Trinitarian view, Jesus emptied himself of deity.(kenosis)
> If this is the case, Jesus could not resurrect himself.
> Even though he was the Christ incarnated as a man, he emptied himself of his powers and used the power of his Father to perform miracles etc. He prayed to his Father.(God) He didn't have the information of his Father. Only his Father was good.
> His Father was greater than he. It was his Father's doctrine. He was taught by his Father. He performed his works in his Father's name. His Father was superior. When did Jesus  become a co-equal with God again,  back in Heaven?
> I guess the point I'm making is, how could he resurrect himself?


I can't recall their argument, but I will say that most of what you posted is not what the trins I know believe


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## Israel (Jan 12, 2015)

What Jesus said.
And says.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 12, 2015)

Phillippians
5Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Luke 4:1 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, left the Jordan and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness,

Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about Him spread through all the surrounding district.

Acts 10:38 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Acts 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.


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