# salvation thru faith by grace



## jkkj (Feb 15, 2009)

does anyone think you can lose your salvation after you have repented and asked jesus into your heart?


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## redneckcamo (Feb 15, 2009)

born again- aka -saved ! .... the Holy Spirit comes in too dwell an seals you too the day of redemption an God will NEVER leave or forsake you an cannot lie !!!  so my answer is NO !


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## Bigcountry30662 (Feb 15, 2009)

Once saved always saved


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## mtnwoman (Feb 15, 2009)

The only way you can lose your salvation is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, to turn away, deny, or quench the fire of the HS. And that would be pretty hard to do if you are truly saved in the first place. And then I'm not sure that you can't be forgiven for that even.
Other than that....
I believe once saved always saved. I can testify to that.


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## earl (Feb 15, 2009)

I also posed this question on another thread. What do you say about a child saved at an early age that goes down a different path later in their life.? Were they not old enough , not sincere, or just changed their mind ?


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## jkkj (Feb 15, 2009)

I believe once saved always saved. there is nothing out there stronger than the holy spirit or god.so how could you lose it.if it could be lost or taken we would all be in trouble and jesus have have been crucified for nothing.


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## Bigcountry30662 (Feb 15, 2009)

My opinion is either they have backslide,or just didnt get it right the first time.I know myself I remember several times when I was younger I professed to have gotten saved(thought I did) but just didnt get it right. But when I did get it right buddy I knew without a shadow of a doubt.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 15, 2009)

earl said:


> I also posed this question on another thread. What do you say about a child saved at an early age that goes down a different path later in their life.? Were they not old enough , not sincere, or just changed their mind ?



I was baptized at 12 and knew who Jesus was and what being saved meant.
I wandered away for many many years.....
He will leave the ninty and nine to go get one lost sheep.
He knew where I was the whole time....I was lost and didn't even know how lost, but He knew exactly where I was. He retrieved me, or snatched me back.

So no, the only way to become unsaved, IF you were saved in the first place is to commit the unpardonable sin which is quench the fire of the Holy Spirit.
I went thru what I went thru all those years and now teach young girls how to not go there and if they do go there how to get back.
I went thru what I did for a testimony.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 15, 2009)

I guess I disagree with just about all of you.
The Gospel of Christ is filled with dozens of verses that speak of people who had at one time shared in God's grace in Jesus Christ but now have fallen away and fallen short and have place their eternal life in Jeopardy.

Paul spoke that it was possible for himself to teach the gospel but yet himself to fall short and not reach the goal.  So he daily reminded himself to stay focus on Jesus.

I don't have much time to discuss this in depth.
My experience is that most who believe in "once saved always saved" aren't very open to scriptures that teach against it anyway.  I guess one day we'll all find out.  Just don't stop living for Jesus.  Wouldn't want to find out the hard way.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 15, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I guess I disagree with just about all of you.
> The Gospel of Christ is filled with dozens of verses that speak of people who had at one time shared in God's grace in Jesus Christ but now have fallen away and fallen short and have place their eternal life in Jeopardy.
> 
> Paul spoke that it was possible for himself to teach the gospel but yet himself to fall short and not reach the goal.  So he daily reminded himself to stay focus on Jesus.
> ...



Funny how you claim there's scripture that says you can lose your salvation.

If God chose us to be saved, how can He change His mind...and unchoose us?

2nd Thess 2:13

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth


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## Bigcountry30662 (Feb 15, 2009)

My take on that is that the people never got saved in the first place. But went through life decieved thinking that they were saved,there are plenty of preachers and church members in this shape today. But I have never seen scripture to back up you can lose your salvation.


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## pigpen1 (Feb 15, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Funny how you claim there's scripture that says you can lose your salvation.
> 
> If God chose us to be saved, how can He change His mind...and unchoose us?
> 
> ...



 I guess those that believe water baptism is salvation could lose it when they dry off...


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## Ronnie T (Feb 15, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Funny how you claim there's scripture that says you can lose your salvation.
> 
> If God chose us to be saved, how can He change His mind...and unchoose us?
> 
> ...


2Thes 2:13 is a great verse, but it isn't the whole story.
The question RJ is, why did God chose you?  And another.  How MUST you respond to God's gift of salvation?  God never walks away, but that isn't the point.


Please give me a good Biblical explanation to verse 27 below.
Please don't quote a scripture that seems to conflict with verse 27.
What was Paul's intent in verse 27?  I'm not taking it out of context.  Read the whole chapter.

Paul also wrote this:

1Cor 9:22To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. 23I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings. 
24Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize. 
25Everyone who competes in the games goes into strict training. They do it to get a crown that will not last; but we do it to get a crown that will last forever. 26Therefore I do not run like a man running aimlessly; I do not fight like a man beating the air. 27No, I beat my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.


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## furtaker (Feb 15, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> 2Thes 2:13 is a great verse, but it isn't the whole story.
> The question RJ is, why did God chose you?  And another.  How MUST you respond to God's gift of salvation?  God never walks away, but that isn't the point.
> 
> 
> ...



Paul is not discussing eternal life here.  He knew he was born again.

He is discussing the reality of eternal rewards.  He chose to discipline his body and become a bondservant of Christ so he could experience an abundant earthly life and so he wouldn't be disqualified from proper rewards in heaven.

After all, in Romans 4:5 he wrote: "But to him who DOES NOT WORK but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

If he is talking about salvation in 1 Cor. 9, then he is totally contradicting himself.

It is impossible to be properly motivated for eternal rewards in heaven if you aren't sure you're going to heaven in the first place!

If you can lose your salvation, can you please explain to me why Jesus promised over and over in John that the one who believes in Him has (present tense) everlasting life?

How long is everlasting?

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life" (Jn. 5:24).

What could Jesus have possibly meant here if He didn't believe in eternal security??


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## gordon 2 (Feb 15, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I guess I disagree with just about all of you.
> The Gospel of Christ is filled with dozens of verses that speak of people who had at one time shared in God's grace in Jesus Christ but now have fallen away and fallen short and have place their eternal life in Jeopardy.
> 
> Paul spoke that it was possible for himself to teach the gospel but yet himself to fall short and not reach the goal.  So he daily reminded himself to stay focus on Jesus.
> ...




1 Peter 1:23for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God. 
1 Peter 2:1Therefore.......like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation, 
(I think I have you, Ronnie T, to thank for this scripture on the Decisional Salvation tread.) 


 Now back to the topic, pay attention: "you may grow in respect to" what?  Salvation! See blue text above.

I'm often told that I'm difficult to decipher when I post here, so I will try to make a comparison to explain how I feel and what my experience is concerning salvation and faith.

First of I would like to say that salvation and faith are pea and pod, with salvation the pea.(seed)

So my comparision:When we first meet someone we are lovestruck with, or have fallen in love and the feeling is that of the other as well, we are in a blissful state, extacy even, for sometime.

After some time this "in love feeling" declines and if the couple is to continue as one item, then the individuals  have to get to "really" know each other. This takes time.

Given enough time and not giving up on each other, learning from each other, after awhile the couple get to act more as one unit, or more with one will.

For the differences and the work of being a couple love grows and this is the "for richer or poorer" part of a loving  relationship.

That relationship is the faith the couple have in each other and in their loving union. Remember, they were kissing before they could balance the bank books, or forgive the overdrafts! So......love is more than the first kiss.

And salvation is more than the first date you have with the Lord. Hey, the first months of a true love are real neat, but God whats us to balance the book and forgive overdrafts. 

And so it is with salvation, like Ronnie T's 1 peter  that quoted above.

Now just in case all of the above is as clear to you as a quantum physics is to me, with is not very, salvation is like marriage, it is for keeps and need to be worked at.

Peace.

PS. So I guess, I agree with Ronnie T not being in accord with your Ideas of salvation...

Now this is not about works vs whatever...it is just about how, "that's the way love goes baby." Hope y'll understand my meager logic.


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## Bigcountry30662 (Feb 15, 2009)

Im really lost now


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## gordon 2 (Feb 15, 2009)

Bigcountry30662 said:


> Im really lost now



What makes you believe you were not really lost in the past?


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## Ronnie T (Feb 15, 2009)

brentus said:


> Paul is not discussing eternal life here.  He knew he was born again.  Paul is certainly talking about eternal life here.  In the previous verses he talks about all his work teaching the gospel so that others might be saved.
> 
> He is discussing the reality of eternal rewards.  He chose to discipline his body and become a bondservant of Christ so he could experience an abundant earthly lifeAn abundant earthly life was far from Pauls mind.  He lived in dirty raged clothes and never felt the need for a lot of earthly things.  All Paul wanted was to be with his Lord and Savior and so he wouldn't be disqualified from proper rewards in heaven.
> 
> ...




We are all saved by grace by faith in Jesus Christ.  But faith is a big word and involves much more than making a verbal confession at some point in our lives.
I am a saved, born again Christian live my life for Jesus.  I have every confidence in my eternal salvation.  God will never leave me.  But I have it in my capacity to leave God.
So do you.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 15, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I guess those that believe water baptism is salvation could lose it when they dry off...



Or that salvation requires baptism,  and could lose it when they don't even get wet.
If baptism was what we had to do to achieve salvation, Jesus died for nothing.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Or that salvation requires baptism,  and could lose it when they don't even get wet.
> If baptism was what we had to do to achieve salvation, Jesus died for nothing.




Did Jesus tell believers to be baptized??


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Did Jesus tell believers to be baptized??




Yes He did. Just like He told us to take communion. Just like He told us to do unto others.... 
Just like
Mark 12:31
And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.Baptism is greater, no....it says no OTHER commandment is greater
Mark 12:30-32 (in Context) Mark 12 (Whole Chapter) 
John 14:21
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
John 14:20-22 (in Context) John 14 (Whole Chapter) 
John 15:12
This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.*BUT only if you're baptized? No it doesn't say that*

Jesus said on the cross Himself.....it is finished. Meaning salvation is done, finished.
How can being dunked, compare to the work on the cross?

Should we be baptized, yes. Should we do all He asks us to to do? Yes. But if we don't we are forgiven BECAUSE OF THE WORKS ON THE CROSS. Don't belittle that.

If you feel convicted of being baptized to prove you are saved, so be it. What if you are in a nursing home ministering to a person that is on their death bed and you lead them to salvation in Christ, but don't have a watering hole to baptize them, are they going to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----

Lighten up. I like how you think, but don't put Christ's works on the cross only works if you're baptized....please.


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## GiddyUpGo (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I guess I disagree with just about all of you.
> The Gospel of Christ is filled with dozens of verses that speak of people who had at one time shared in God's grace in Jesus Christ but now have fallen away and fallen short and have place their eternal life in Jeopardy.
> 
> Paul spoke that it was possible for himself to teach the gospel but yet himself to fall short and not reach the goal.  So he daily reminded himself to stay focus on Jesus.
> ...



I agree with you completely.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 16, 2009)

RonnieT- I agree with you on this one. This is definitely my understanding of it. 

Judas would be a good example of a man who knew his Lord and knew the teachings and did everything yet denied him.


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## fivesolas (Feb 16, 2009)

I think those who believe a person who has been born of God/regenerated/re-created by God Himself, and yet can fall away, does not understand correctly the new creation. 

-five


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## celticfisherman (Feb 16, 2009)

I think that would be part of the point Solas. You might not fully grasp it and not grow in it and still fall away. IMO this is why just worrying about people's baptism isn't a good thing. If you are baptized and are taught the fundamentals of the faith that falling away chance IMO would be greatly diminished.


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## gtparts (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I guess I disagree with just about all of you.
> The Gospel of Christ is filled with dozens of verses that speak of people who had at one time shared in God's grace in Jesus Christ but now have fallen away and fallen short and have place their eternal life in Jeopardy.
> 
> Paul spoke that it was possible for himself to teach the gospel but yet himself to fall short and not reach the goal.  So he daily reminded himself to stay focus on Jesus.
> ...



It is clear to me that there were some, if not many, who were not fully committed to Christ and were not changed, reserving for themselves "private" sins and "partial control" of their lives. If a group goes snow skiing and one person never puts on the boots and skis and makes one run down the course, he can still say he went on a ski trip. Being a follower of Christ is more than just hanging around with a crowd of Christians. No one is saved by association.



rjcruiser said:


> Funny how you claim there's scripture that says you can lose your salvation.
> 
> If God chose us to be saved, how can He change His mind...and unchoose us?
> 
> ...



Two thumbs up, brother.



celticfisherman said:


> RonnieT- I agree with you on this one. This is definitely my understanding of it.
> 
> Judas would be a good example of a man who knew his Lord and knew the teachings and did everything yet denied him.



Judas was numbered with the twelve and that's about all you can say for him. It was known to God that Judas would not "sell out to Jesus", but "sell Jesus out".

Peace.


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## pigpen1 (Feb 16, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Or that salvation requires baptism,  and could lose it when they don't even get wet.
> If baptism was what we had to do to achieve salvation, Jesus died for nothing.



 AMEN! If water was what it took, all we would have needed was John the Baptist...

 Regeneration is being Born of the Spirit, without the Spirit we are none of His....He didn't say without the water we are none of His....Baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God, works of ours showing forth to the world that we have been saved, not works to obtain salvation....


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## celticfisherman (Feb 16, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Judas was numbered with the twelve and that's about all you can say for him. It was known to God that Judas would not "sell out to Jesus", but "sell Jesus out".
> 
> Peace.



Exactly but he KNEW Jesus. There are lots just like him today in the church.


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## Banjo (Feb 16, 2009)

> Originally Posted by rjcruiser
> Funny how you claim there's scripture that says you can lose your salvation.
> 
> If God chose us to be saved, how can He change His mind...and unchoose us?
> ...



Gtparts....you aren't leaning towards sovereign grace, are you now???  I mean...you gave rjcruiser two thumbs up on an extremely Calvinistic statement...


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## crackerdave (Feb 16, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> I was baptized at 12 and knew who Jesus was and what being saved meant.
> I wandered away for many many years.....
> He will leave the ninty and nine to go get one lost sheep.
> He knew where I was the whole time....I was lost and didn't even know how lost, but He knew exactly where I was. He retrieved me, or snatched me back.
> ...



 Same here,sis!


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## rjcruiser (Feb 16, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Exactly but he KNEW Jesus. There are lots just like him today in the church.



Knowing Jesus and having Him as your Lord and Saviour are two way way different things.

For even the demons believe and they shutter.  James 2:19

If the question at the beginning of this thread was if you could know about Jesus and still turn away from Him, I'd say yes.  But the question was about being saved and then losing it.

I guess the main difference between those who believe you can lose your salvation and those who don't believe you can lose your salvation is who is doing the salvation work to begin with.

Those who believe you can lose your salvation believe that it is the person making the decision and doing the work for salvation while those who don't believe you can lose your salvation rest assured that it was the Holy Spirit/God that performed the work and called them to salvation.


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## crackerdave (Feb 16, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> I think that would be part of the point Solas. You might not fully grasp it and not grow in it and still fall away. IMO this is why just worrying about people's baptism isn't a good thing. If you are baptized and are taught the fundamentals of the faith that falling away chance IMO would be greatly diminished.



Very true - and why discipleship is VERY important to a 
Christian early in their walk with God.


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## crackerdave (Feb 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Knowing Jesus and having Him as your Lord and Saviour are two way way different things.
> 
> For even the demons believe and they shutter.  James 2:19
> 
> ...



Good point!


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## celticfisherman (Feb 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Knowing Jesus and having Him as your Lord and Saviour are two way way different things.
> 
> For even the demons believe and they shutter.  James 2:19
> 
> ...



My argument would be that how could an apostle not be saved? Then turn away. I do believe you can lose your salvation if you turn away. And I believe you can decide to turn away. Now the question becomes did you ever really "know" Him to begin with. I would say yes. But this is a delicate argument. Because the argument could be made that you can never lose what you never really have or that God must have predestined you to fall away. 

I do not believe in the Baptist definition of OSAS. To me it misses the sin that is within us and our innate corruption.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 16, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> My argument would be that how could an apostle not be saved? Then turn away. I do believe you can lose your salvation if you turn away. And I believe you can decide to turn away. Now the question becomes did you ever really "know" Him to begin with. I would say yes. But this is a delicate argument. Because the argument could be made that you can never lose what you never really have or that God must have predestined you to fall away.
> 
> I do not believe in the Baptist definition of OSAS. To me it misses the sin that is within us and our innate corruption.




Well...how do you know that Judas went to Helll?  The Bible doesn't say...but that is another debate all in itself.

What is the Baptist definition of OSAS?  I like If Saved, Always Saved much better.  

But, in-order to believe in ISAS, you really have to believe in predestination and most Southern Baptists would rather kiss their sister than believe in the P word.

Again, really, it isn't OSAS that fails to deal with man's innate corruption, it is the doctrine of a works based salvation and the doctrine of free will that fails to deal with that.


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## crackerdave (Feb 16, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> My argument would be that how could an apostle not be saved? Then turn away. I do believe you can lose your salvation if you turn away. And I believe you can decide to turn away. Now the question becomes did you ever really "know" Him to begin with. I would say yes. But this is a delicate argument. Because the argument could be made that you can never lose what you never really have or that God must have predestined you to fall away.
> 
> I do not believe in the Baptist definition of OSAS. To me it misses the sin that is within us and our innate corruption.



Being a Baptist,I agree to disagree. 

"Exit - stage left!" [Snagglepuss,the lion]


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## fivesolas (Feb 16, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> I think that would be part of the point Solas. You might not fully grasp it and not grow in it and still fall away. IMO this is why just worrying about people's baptism isn't a good thing. If you are baptized and are taught the fundamentals of the faith that falling away chance IMO would be greatly diminished.



How can you undo the creation of God?


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## celticfisherman (Feb 16, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> How can you undo the creation of God?



Not following you on this one. Could you explain a little?


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## celticfisherman (Feb 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Well...how do you know that Judas went to Helll?  The Bible doesn't say...but that is another debate all in itself.
> 
> What is the Baptist definition of OSAS?  I like If Saved, Always Saved much better.
> 
> ...



I can agree with that but at least the Baptist churches I have attended would fall into the freewill and doctrine of works (don't drink, smoke, or dance, legalism). Maybe not all. I know Calvinism is sweeping thru a lot of the Baptist churches right now.

Judas- Where else would he go? He committed suicide. What about those Christians who commit suicide? 

Maybe if we revise it to IF TRULY SAVED. But there is no way but thru works (fruits of the spirit) that we would know if someone is truly saved. And even that isn't a sure way. Personally I believe this is what Paul was talking about in Timothy.


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## gtparts (Feb 16, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Gtparts....you aren't leaning towards sovereign grace, are you now???  I mean...you gave rjcruiser two thumbs up on an extremely Calvinistic statement...



Please understand that I am not the least interested in leaning on Calvin or some  Calvinistic statement. Like most theologians, Calvin has expressed the truth in some matters and missed the mark on others. It would be foolish to reject the truth he has written along with the error he has written. I only seek to stand erect in the Truth of God. 

I think the big issue for me is our differing understanding of "God's choosing". God is firm concerning His desire to redeem His fallen creation. There is no shadow of turning. He will not "unchoose". God is no flip-flopper.

As for the verse rj provided.....

2nd Thess 2:13

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.


.....it is addressed to the church leaders and body at Thessalonika and Paul has accepted that they were already saved. Again, there is the issue of what is meant by "God's choosing". 

Also, remember that salvations were usually accomplished outside of the formal church gatherings. Lost people were not brought in and then saved, but most often they were brought to Christ by a one-on-one witnessing process in daily life and then encouraged to join with the local body. Many of today's churches have reversed the original order of winning the lost to Christ and many of those are less effective at winning any. The church at Thessalonika was being commended for persevering at the task of winning the lost through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Grace and peace to you and yours.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Yes He did. Just like He told us to take communion. Just like He told us to do unto others....
> Just like
> Mark 12:31
> And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.Baptism is greater, no....it says no OTHER commandment is greater
> ...



Up front, let me say this:  Baptism is not that thing which saves you, but it is something that can keep you from it.

I've had this discussion many times on this forum and I know up front that those who were not taught baptism are not always going to be willing to take in the need for it.

1.  Jesus did not command you and I to be baptized.  He commanded His apostles to baptism us.  He told them to teach the gospel and baptized believers.

2.  The book of Acts provides a historical account of the forming of the church.  In it are the details of the unsaved being brought into the church, or kingdom.  In all of the book of Acts, everytime an individual or group of individuals was taught, upon believing, they were baptized.  There are no exceptions.

3.  Being baptized should not be placed in a category with feeding the hungry or caring for an orphan.  Baptism is not a work.  It is a process.

4.  The New Testament speaks of being clothed in Christ.  Do you know that it only refers to those who have been baptized as having been clothed in Christ.

5.  In the first century, New Testament church, baptism was a part of coming to Christ.  Today it's being left behind.  It's as though baptism and grace can't be used in the same sentence.
In Acts 2:38, those Jewish converts were saved by the grace of God, but they were REQUIRED to be baptized.

6.  It isn't a matter of being forgiven for not being baptized.  Why would anyone refuse it????   Why would anyone not teach it????   Why would anyone think the first Christians were required to be baptized but we're so smart we can forego this great act.

7.  I purposely left no scriptures because this is a good opportunity for anyone who's interested to do a complete search of baptism in the New Testament church.


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## Mako22 (Feb 16, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> The only way you can lose your salvation is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, to turn away, deny, or quench the fire of the HS. And that would be pretty hard to do if you are truly saved in the first place. And then I'm not sure that you can't be forgiven for that even.
> Other than that....
> I believe once saved always saved. I can testify to that.



It is impossible to blaspheme the Holy Spirit today.


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## Mako22 (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I guess I disagree with just about all of you.
> The Gospel of Christ is filled with dozens of verses that speak of people who had at one time shared in God's grace in Jesus Christ but now have fallen away and fallen short and have place their eternal life in Jeopardy.
> 
> Paul spoke that it was possible for himself to teach the gospel but yet himself to fall short and not reach the goal.  So he daily reminded himself to stay focus on Jesus.
> ...



Show me one scripture that references "saved people" falling away to "jeopordy" as you put it. Please make sure that you are properly applying the scripture in question.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> I can agree with that but at least the Baptist churches I have attended would fall into the freewill and doctrine of works (don't drink, smoke, or dance, legalism). Maybe not all. I know Calvinism is sweeping thru a lot of the Baptist churches right now.
> 
> Judas- Where else would he go? He committed suicide. What about those Christians who commit suicide?
> 
> Maybe if we revise it to IF TRULY SAVED. But there is no way but thru works (fruits of the spirit) that we would know if someone is truly saved. And even that isn't a sure way. Personally I believe this is what Paul was talking about in Timothy.



That is if you believe people go to h... if they commit suicide. That isn't an unforgiveable sin.
I do believe those who are saved, redeemed by the blood, yet damaged enough to commit suicide are still saved and do go to heaven. Why wouldn't they? If you commit murder can you be forgiven and saved?

Whoever thinks suicide is a direct path to h... is so way off base, unless the person isn't saved, then of course they wouldn't go to heaven.

No where in the bible that says suicide sends you to h...
It says thou shalt not kill, which is a forgiveable sin, even if you're in prison you can be delivered, redeemed, forgiven and saved by the power of our Lord Jesus, don't belittle His power to forgive, past, present and future sins.

Suicide people can be delivered and still be damaged....hey I'm damaged and I'm delivered and forgiven.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> The only way you can lose your salvation is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, to turn away, deny, or quench the fire of the HS. And that would be pretty hard to do if you are truly saved in the first place. And then I'm not sure that you can't be forgiven for that even.
> Other than that....
> I believe once saved always saved. I can testify to that.



But shouldn't we not be seeking "our beliefs" but what Jesus directed?


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## rjcruiser (Feb 16, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> I can agree with that but at least the Baptist churches I have attended would fall into the freewill and doctrine of works (don't drink, smoke, or dance, legalism). Maybe not all. I know Calvinism is sweeping thru a lot of the Baptist churches right now.
> 
> Judas- Where else would he go? He committed suicide. What about those Christians who commit suicide?
> 
> Maybe if we revise it to IF TRULY SAVED. But there is no way but thru works (fruits of the spirit) that we would know if someone is truly saved. And even that isn't a sure way. Personally I believe this is what Paul was talking about in Timothy.



Agree with you on the SBC issues of free will.  But, you are right, Calvinism is sweeping through the denomination and if you'd visit my church, you'd hear Predestination taught, but some of those legalism issues are still hurdles we are all trying to work through 

Oh...and btw, I don't dance....just do a little funny walking every once in a while

As far as Judas...I believe that someone can commit suicide and still go to Heaven.  I know...wrong thread and it has been discussed a ton before, but for instance, a friend of the family was a professing Christian...had fruit to back it up...ended up having an illness that affected him mentally.  I don't know all circumstances, but he was not himself the last 9 mos of his life.  After this illness ate away at his brain for a long time, it drove him to suicide.  Based on his testimony, that of his wife etc etc, I truly believe he is in Heaven.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2009)

Woodsman69 said:


> It is impossible to blaspheme the Holy Spirit today.



Please explain.
Do we disregard everything else that is written in Mark and Luke then, too.

Mark 3:29
But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal ****ation.
Mark 3:28-30 (in Context) Mark 3 (Whole Chapter) 
Luke 12:10
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2009)

Revelation 2
Message to Ephesus
 1"To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this: 
 2'I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; 

 3and you have perseverance and have endured for My name's sake, and have not grown weary. 

 4'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 

 5'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> But shouldn't we not be seeking "our beliefs" but what Jesus directed?



Do you mean where Jesus said, NOTHING will snatch you out of the palm of my hand.....He said nothing.....meaning nothing....ie not going to church or not be baptised or not doing works, or...nothing means nothing.

Should we do those things yes we should....but you know I doubt that there is one person on the forum or even in all Christianity that does as they should all the time. Otherwise why would we need to be forgiven for past, present and future sins.

Ok let me correct that..... where I said I believe....
Once saved always saved unless you blaspheme the Holy Spirit and you may not be forgiven for that.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2009)

Revelation 3
Message to Sardis
 1"To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 
 2'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. 

 3'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. 

 4'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 

 5'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. 

 6'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'


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## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Do you mean where Jesus said, NOTHING will snatch you out of the palm of my hand.....He said nothing.....meaning nothing....ie not going to church or not be baptised or not doing works, or...nothing means nothing.
> 
> Should we do those things yes we should....but you know I doubt that there is one person on the forum or even in all Christianity that does as they should all the time. Otherwise why would we need to be forgiven for past, present and future sins.
> 
> ...




You have to be willing to accept all the scripture, not just your favorite verses.
Please read my post's from Revelation.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Agree with you on the SBC issues of free will.  But, you are right, Calvinism is sweeping through the denomination and if you'd visit my church, you'd hear Predestination taught, but some of those legalism issues are still hurdles we are all trying to work through
> 
> Oh...and btw, I don't dance....just do a little funny walking every once in a while
> 
> As far as Judas...I believe that someone can commit suicide and still go to Heaven.  I know...wrong thread and it has been discussed a ton before, but for instance, a friend of the family was a professing Christian...had fruit to back it up...ended up having an illness that affected him mentally.  I don't know all circumstances, but he was not himself the last 9 mos of his life.  After this illness ate away at his brain for a long time, it drove him to suicide.  Based on his testimony, that of his wife etc etc, I truly believe he is in Heaven.




Hey now, I'll dance, too. No where does it say in the Bible not to dance and I've been Baptist all my life. Both my grandma's would cringe if they knew we were dancing, even to Come on Baby let's do the twist.
They believed that it was provocative for girls especially, like we were dancing to show our bodies off in front of boys.  Strippers now that's different


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## rjcruiser (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> 5'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent.



Ronnie,
This is talking about people, specifically a church, that is full of believers.  They are saved people, but are living in sin or falling into temptation.  The Lord is telling them that if they don't turn from it or abstain from temptation, that the Lord will bring their life to an end and get them to Heaven.  



Ronnie T said:


> 5'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.



Doesn't this promote ISAS?  God will never erase a name from the book of life.  It is in permanent ink...it can't be erased.


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## fivesolas (Feb 16, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Not following you on this one. Could you explain a little?



If I understand you correctly, you believe someone may actually possess eternal life given to them by God, and then lose it. I made a point about the one who does have eternal life being re-created by God--a new creation (specie). 

Leaving the doctrines of election and particular redemption aside for the moment...

If a person has been re-created by God, how can that person undo the creation of God? 

Added in: I think this boils down to a persons soteriology. 

-five


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> You have to be willing to accept all the scripture, not just your favorite verses.
> Please read my post's from Revelation.



What do you mean? Same goes for you, did you post ALL scripture or just your fav scripture in revelation?
That's pretty judgemental of you to say I can't post my favorite verses..those aren't my favorite verses, just the ones I was referring to, to make my point.

So are you willing to accept all scripture including my so called favorite verses or just what you've picked out?
Hey let's play fair here, ok?


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## Free Willie (Feb 16, 2009)

There is no such thing as OSAS.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Ronnie,
> This is talking about people, specifically a church, that is full of believers.  They are saved people, but are living in sin or falling into temptation.  The Lord is telling them that if they don't turn from it or abstain from temptation, that the Lord will bring their life to an end and get them to Heaven.
> 
> 
> ...



Rightly dividing the word....thanks!


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## celticfisherman (Feb 16, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> If I understand you correctly, you believe someone may actually possess eternal life given to them by God, and then lose it. I made a point about the one who does have eternal life being re-created by God--a new creation (specie).
> 
> Leaving the doctrines of election and particular redemption aside for the moment...
> 
> ...



Gotcha now.

I guess I am going on what we see. Because we cannot KNOW that they have been recreated. So baptism as a indicator so to speak. 

But I also added in above the idea of TRULY SAVED. Which would be what you are saying.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2009)

Free Willie said:


> There is no such thing as OSAS.



Yes there is.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 16, 2009)

Free Willie said:


> There is no such thing as OSAS.



Hmm...there's no such thing as works based salvation.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2009)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie T  
5'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place--unless you repent. 

Ronnie,
This is talking about people, specifically a church, that is full of believers. They are saved people, but are living in sin or falling into temptation. The Lord is telling them that if they don't turn from it or abstain from temptation, that the Lord will bring their life to an end and get them to Heaven.        "You are incorrect here"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie T  
5'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.  

Doesn't this promote ISAS? God will never erase a name from the book of life. It is in permanent ink...it can't be erased. 
"Did you read the one where He will erase there names from the book?"


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## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2009)

More scripture to consider.

1 Corinthians 15

 1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 
 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> "You are incorrect here"


Okay 
Tell me why you think I'm incorrect.


			
				RonnieT said:
			
		

> "Did you read the one where He will erase there names from the book?"



Nope...never saw that passage.  Can you post it for me?


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## rjcruiser (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> More scripture to consider.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 15
> 
> ...



Context Ronnie...I don't even need to respond to this one.  You are pulling things out of context to satisfy your agenda.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Context Ronnie...I don't even need to respond to this one.  You are pulling things out of context to satisfy your agenda.



DOn't think so. This statement of UNLESS YOU BELIEVED IN VAIN. seems to fit.


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## gtparts (Feb 16, 2009)

Free Willie said:


> There is no such thing as OSAS.



Free,

Are you certain of your salvation?




John 17

1 These things spake Jesus; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that the son may glorify thee: 
2 even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life. 
3 And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, [even] Jesus Christ. 
4 I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do. 
5 And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 
6 I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word. 
7 Now they know that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are from thee: 
8 for the words which thou gavest me I have given unto them; and they received [them], and knew of a truth that I came forth from thee, and they believed that thou didst send me. 
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine: 
10 and all things that are mine are thine, and thine are mine: and I am glorified in them. 
11 And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we [are]. 
12 While I was with them, I kept them in thy name which thou hast given me: and I guarded them, and not one of them perished, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 
13 But now I come to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy made full in themselves. 
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil [one]. 
16 They are not of the world even as I am not of the world. 
17 Sanctify them in the truth: thy word is truth. 
18 As thou didst send me into the world, even so sent I them into the world. 
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. 
20 Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word; 
21 that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me. 
22 And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we [are] one; 
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that thou didst send me, and lovedst them, even as thou lovedst me. 
24 Father, I desire that they also whom thou hast given me be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 
25 O righteous Father, the world knew thee not, but I knew thee; and these knew that thou didst send me; 
26 and I made known unto them thy name, and will make it known; that the love wherewith thou lovedst me may be in them, and I in them. 


1 John 5:11-13

11 And the witness is this, that God gave unto us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 
12 He that hath the Son hath the life; he that hath not the Son of God hath not the life. 
13 These things have I written unto you, that ye may know that ye have eternal life, [even] unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God. 


I have been saved once, for eternity. I will not need to be saved a second time. My salvation is forever preserved in Christ; it is no longer a matter of my will or behavior, but His power to hold it in my behalf until I am called home or He returns.

Like Paul, I have this confidence.

2 Timothy 1:12
For which cause I suffer also these things: yet I am not ashamed; for I know him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that he is able to guard that which I have committed unto him against that day.

I am once saved, always saved. It is not of my doing , but by the Word of God.

Peace.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> More scripture to consider.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 15
> 
> ...





celticfisherman said:


> DOn't think so. This statement of UNLESS YOU BELIEVED IN VAIN. seems to fit.



Okay...I'll explain why this is out of context.

Read the entire chapter.  Read the entire book of I Cor.

Paul is telling the Corinthians that they're belief in Christ is not in vain.  He is explaining to them that Jesus Christ is real, that His death and resurrection did happen and that if you repent and believe, your belief will not be in vain.  Eternal life is attainable through Jesus Christ.

If Jesus Christ didn't even exist...if His Death and Resurrection didn't occur...then their belief would be in vain.

Again...this is the problem with modern day churches and churches that don't preach expositionally.  They pull verses out of books one and two at a time to fit their outline.  They come up with a message, an outline, a motivational speach...and then search the Bible to have verses fit their points.  

That is why one of the requirements I have (yes personal conviction) is that the church I attend is going to have expository preaching.  You get the background of the book, the reason why the author was writing the book and then you get the entire story....the entire meaning.  Not some made-up explanation that seems to fit because you're looking at one verse.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Okay...I'll explain why this is out of context.
> 
> Read the entire chapter.  Read the entire book of I Cor.
> 
> ...



I'll agree with you on the never read just a verse. But the story behind Corinth would tend to lend credibility to Ronnie's context here. The churches were teaching stuff after Paul left and evangelized them that were not in holding with the Faith. So why wouldn't they have fallen away.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 16, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> The churches were teaching stuff after Paul left and evangelized them that were not in holding with the Faith. So why wouldn't they have fallen away.



Guess I don't understand.  Are you saying that those who were preaching heresy were at one time saved?

Again...Paul is saying that if you don't believe in Christ Jesus, if you don't believe in the message Paul is giving, your belief is in vain.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Guess I don't understand.  Are you saying that those who were preaching heresy were at one time saved?
> 
> Again...Paul is saying that if you don't believe in Christ Jesus, if you don't believe in the message Paul is giving, your belief is in vain.



Paul baptized them and taught them. Yet they still fell away. I would guess we would all think they were saved and fine yet they still fell away.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> What do you mean? Same goes for you, did you post ALL scripture or just your fav scripture in revelation?
> That's pretty judgemental of you to say I can't post my favorite verses..those aren't my favorite verses, just the ones I was referring to, to make my point.
> 
> So are you willing to accept all scripture including my so called favorite verses or just what you've picked out?
> Hey let's play fair here, ok?




I don't mean to judge you, not at all.  But all scripture must be included.

When all scripture are used together:

1.  God saved a person by His grace.  He has to be save by grace because an unsaved person living in sin cannot save themselves thru their works.  It is God who brought me into this state of being saved.

2.  As a Christian, I must be born again.  That's what Jesus told Nic in John 3.  Being born again isn't about baptism.  It isn't about accepting Jesus. That isn't what Jesus is talking about.  Jesus was telling old Nic that being religious isn't enough.  Knowing all the laws and rules wouldn't get Nic into the kingdom of heaven.
Nic needed a new heart.  That heart was available through the word and teachings of Christ.  Nic needed to change his purpose in life.  He needed a new reason to live.  He had to become a different person than Nic of the Sanhedrin.  He needed to be a disciple is Jesus.

3.  Christ didn't die on the cross so you could tell people they can do what they want and Christ will save them anyway.

4.  Christ wants people who love Him.  And He said that if you love Me, you'll keep my commandments.  Christianity isn't a club where you learn the secret motto and they open the door for you.  Christianity is about new life in Christ.  If one isn't living new life in Christ, they aren't in Christ.  Christ doesn't want them.

5.  You once talked about the years that you left Christ His church and He finally brought you back.  I believe you and know it happens all the time with us humans.  But, if you had died while you had fallen away from Christ, Christ would not have saved you or anyone else.

6.  Christianity is about living for Christ.  If you aren't, you ain't.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 16, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Paul baptized them and taught them. Yet they still fell away. I would guess we would all think they were saved and fine yet they still fell away.



How do you know they were baptized?  Are you saying that if you are baptized and sit under the teaching of a great preacher, you're saved?    

But you emphasize the point I brought up before...that if you believe in baptism or other works as required for salvation, then you'll probably believe that you have the power to lose it as well.


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 16, 2009)

> the basis and groundwork of arminian theology lies in attaching undue importance to man, and giving god rather the second place than the first. - spurgeon


 
db bb


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 16, 2009)

> the raw material for a devil is an angel. The raw material for the son of perdition was an apostle; and the raw material for the most horrible of apostates is one who is almost a saint. - spurgeon


 
db bb


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## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2009)

Revelation 3
1"To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 
2'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. 
3'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. 

4'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 

5'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. 

Note on verse 5:
Those from the church in Sardis who overcomes their dead lives will (1)be clothed in white,  (2) not have their names erased, (3) will have their names confessed before God.

An obvious assumption:
Those of that church who do not overcome will (1) not be clothed in white, (2) will have their names erased, (3) will not have names confessed before God.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2009)

No db bb,

The importance is all in God.  If God says it, I do it.

That doesn't make it about me, except that I am His child.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> How do you know they were baptized?  Are you saying that if you are baptized and sit under the teaching of a great preacher, you're saved?
> 
> But you emphasize the point I brought up before...that if you believe in baptism or other works as required for salvation, then you'll probably believe that you have the power to lose it as well.



Two calvinists arguing the same point but different points on a specific part of it... 

I'm saying that by all outward appearances wouldn't you consider them to be saved?


----------



## fivesolas (Feb 16, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Two calvinists arguing the same point but different points on a specific part of it...
> 
> I'm saying that by all outward appearances wouldn't you consider them to be saved?



Indeed, but chaff looks quite similiar to wheat. A tomb may be whitewashed, but its full of dead mens bones. And its not those who were anti-christ that say "Did we not prophecy in thy name..."


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## rjcruiser (Feb 16, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> I'm saying that by all outward appearances wouldn't you consider them to be saved?



Yes...I would agree.  But that is why God judges their heart and not me.

I've seen kids I grew up with that I thought were saved...but are not producing any fruit at this time.  That is why I think it is dangerous to have young kids brought to the front of the church, baptized and given their certificate.  I find it sad to see a dad get in the tub with their kid and the dad has to give the testimony because the kid either is too shy or doesn't understand the significance of what they are doing.  Shameful at best.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> 5'He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
> 
> Note on verse 5:
> Those from the church in Sardis who overcomes their dead lives will (1)be clothed in white,  (2) not have their names erased, (3) will have their names confessed before God.
> ...




Okay...so based on your obvious assumption...all it takes to have your name written in the Lambs book of Life is to be a member of a church named "Sardis"

Maybe they're name was not written in the book to begin with.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Yes...I would agree.  But that is why God judges their heart and not me.
> 
> I've seen kids I grew up with that I thought were saved...but are not producing any fruit at this time.  That is why I think it is dangerous to have young kids brought to the front of the church, baptized and given their certificate.  I find it sad to see a dad get in the tub with their kid and the dad has to give the testimony because the kid either is too shy or doesn't understand the significance of what they are doing.  Shameful at best.



See that is my point. All we can go on is the outward appearances. So with that caveat... Yes you can lose it.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> No db bb,
> 
> The importance is all in God. If God says it, I do it.
> 
> That doesn't make it about me, except that I am His child.


 
Ronnie,

Arminian's believe that you can loose your salvation... That would entail that an arminian would have the power to turn away from God...

I know you believe in God, and are Saved... Just curious would you consider yourself more in line with Arminian belief?


DB BB


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## rjcruiser (Feb 16, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> See that is my point. All we can go on is the outward appearances. So with that caveat... Yes you can lose it.





Okay...I'll agree with that.  Someone who I think might be saved might actually not be saved.  Funny, I've been known to be wrong before, so it won't be the first time.

The bigger issue (and the heart of this question) is can God be wrong in thinking someone is saved and then they fall away?

Obviously (or not to some folks on here), God can't be wrong.


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 16, 2009)

Agree. If God has chosen you then you won't loose it cause He can't be wrong.


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## Banjo (Feb 16, 2009)

> That is why I think it is dangerous to have young kids brought to the front of the church, baptized and given their certificate.



We agree.....

This is DANGEROUS because the children are told that they are SAVED...usually based on some kind of decision THEY made or some prayer THEY prayed with someone.  Many (if not most) Baptists will always go back and say....I know I am saved because I walked the aisle when I was 12 and got baptized.  I have heard mommas so saddened because of the lifestyle their children are leading say..."Well, I know he is saved because he accepted Jesus into his heart when he was 9."

It is equally DANGEROUS for any Presbyterian parent to say "Little Johnny, you were born a child of the Covenant; you were baptized as an infant, so you are saved."

Only those who persevere to the end are saved.  The only reason ANY of us will persevere is because God is the author and finisher of our faith.  Without Him, we would all perish.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Ronnie,
> 
> Arminian's believe that you can loose your salvation... That would entail that an arminian would have the power to turn away from God...
> 
> ...




I got to admit that I'm not much into the Arminian thing but I'll say this.
I am saved.  I believe in my eternal life.  Not because of my works, but because I have given my life to Christ and Christ has changed me.  I still sin.  I still repent from time to time.  I confess my sins often and God forgives those sins.  Even if I sin and for some reason don't confess and ask for that forgiveness, God forgives me because Christ is my Savior.  Heaven belongs to me.
But, if I meet cute little Jezabel this afternoon and within a few weeks find something in her that really 'moves' me; and in a few weeks I leave my wife and leave the church, and God, so I can go spend the rest of my life in bed with her, I have forsaken my relationship with God.  If I die at that point, Christ isn't standing at heavens portal waiting to gently receive me unto Himself. 
I have made a mockery of God's love and grace.

Receiving God's grace of forgiveness is all up to God.  Living for God involves me and my decisions along with God's leadership.


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## fivesolas (Feb 16, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Agree. If God has chosen you then you won't loose it cause He can't be wrong.



The Arminian scheme doesn't give 'em room for a loss of salvation either. If God foresaw that someone would believe, and on that account chose them, then it still has God choosing and He can't be wrong.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Okay...so based on your obvious assumption...all it takes to have your name written in the Lambs book of Life is to be a member of a church named "Sardis"
> 
> Maybe they're name was not written in the book to begin with.



I can tell that you are not very serious about this.
You know exactly what my point is and what that scripture is saying.


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## fivesolas (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I got to admit that I'm not much into the Arminian thing but I'll say this.
> I am saved.  I believe in my eternal life.  Not because of my works, but because I have given my life to Christ and Christ has changed me.  I still sin.  I still repent from time to time.  I confess my sins often and God forgives those sins.  Even if I sin and for some reason don't confess and ask for that forgiveness, God forgives me because Christ is my Savior.  Heaven belongs to me.
> But, if I meet cute little Jezabel this afternoon and within a few weeks find something in her that really 'moves' me; and in a few weeks I leave my wife and leave the church, and God, so I can go spend the rest of my life in bed with her, I have forsaken my relationship with God.  If I die at that point, Christ isn't standing at heavens portal waiting to gently receive me unto Himself.
> I have made a mockery of God's love and grace.
> ...



Those who are born of God cannot continue in sin because the Word of God abides in them. 

Are you reconciled by the grace of God yet perfected by the flesh? God forbid.


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## Banjo (Feb 16, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> The Arminian scheme doesn't give 'em room for a loss of salvation either. If God foresaw that someone would believe, and on that account chose them, then it still has God choosing and He can't be wrong.



This is a good point.  Arminianism also has issues with man's free will because of the same thing....If God "looked down the corridors of time" and saw that Billy Bob would choose him, then God elects Him, does Billy Bob really have free will????


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I got to admit that I'm not much into the Arminian thing but I'll say this.
> I am saved. I believe in my eternal life. Not because of my works, but because I have given my life to Christ and Christ has changed me. I still sin. I still repent from time to time. I confess my sins often and God forgives those sins. Even if I sin and for some reason don't confess and ask for that forgiveness, God forgives me because Christ is my Savior. Heaven belongs to me.
> But, if I meet cute little Jezabel this afternoon and within a few weeks find something in her that really 'moves' me; and in a few weeks I leave my wife and leave the church, and God, so I can go spend the rest of my life in bed with her, I have forsaken my relationship with God. If I die at that point, Christ isn't standing at heavens portal waiting to gently receive me unto Himself.
> I have made a mockery of God's love and grace.
> ...


 

That is definately where we differ...

See I believe that if God Saves someone, than that someone will do their best to never sin again...and willl persever to the end...

hence given the senerio you posted above, the only conclusion for me is that you would have never been Saved in the first place...

DB BB


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## rjcruiser (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I can tell that you are not very serious about this.
> You know exactly what my point is and what that scripture is saying.



You are right.  However, I'm showing you how something that is obvious to you is not obvious to me.  Also, I'm showing you how dangerous and cavalier it is to assume the meaning of things that aren't there.

I just picked a verse out of the passage and was able to twist it to say what I wanted it to.  Not hard to do at all.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 16, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> The Arminian scheme doesn't give 'em room for a loss of salvation either. If God foresaw that someone would believe, and on that account chose them, then it still has God choosing and He can't be wrong.



Agreed. That system of theology never has made much sense to me. Not knocking anyone just doesn't click.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 16, 2009)

*Belgic Confession*

Therefore we reject everything taught to the contrary
concerning man's free will,
since man is nothing but the slave of sin
and cannot do a thing
unless it is "given him from heaven."^23

For who can boast of being able
to do anything good by himself,
since Christ says,
      "No one can come to me
      unless my Father who sent me
      draws him"?^24


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## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> That is definately where we differ...
> 
> See I believe that if God Saves someone, than that someone will do their best to never sin again...and willl persever to the end...
> 
> ...



Well, obviously, then you're wrong and I'm right. 
Just kidding.

It truly puzzles me that two people can look at the same scripture and derive differing conclusions.
Ain't it something.
I guess for those who live for Christ, it doesn't matter, but for those who falsely think they are saved, they could be lost eternally.
Kinda like, "depart from me I never knew you."

Anyway, good discussion.


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## win270wsm (Feb 16, 2009)

if it were possible to lose your salvation,you would not have had salvation, you would have had probation!
"being justified sealed until the day of redemption!"


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## pigpen1 (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Revelation 3
> 1"To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.
> 2'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God.
> 3'So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.
> ...



 I have posted this on another thread, but it is relevant on here as well..

I believe a person who is mentally handicapped is kept by God, same way of a child who dies at a young age. He would not send a 2yr old child that died to He11.

I believe that our names are wrote in the Lambs Book of Life when we become a life [at conception]. This explains how a child who died or mentally handicapped person could have their name in the Book of life.

If we are able of being accountable of our sins and reject Christ our names will be removed. Rev 3:5

5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life , but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
KJV

But if we Overcome and are Saved our name is written in stone. Rev 2:17

17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone , and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
KJV
When something is wrote in stone it is permanent...

Who are they that overcome???1 John 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?KJV 

 Ronnie what about those who's new name is written in stone, where does that get erased???


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Hmm...there's no such thing as works based salvation.



Right.

If I could do works for my salvation, then Jesus wouldn't have died for it...and if I could do works for my salvation, wouldn't I be saving myself? Who'd need Jesus then?


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## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2009)

Quote from Pigpen  "Ronnie what about those who's new name is written in stone, where does that get erased??? 

I don't know.  We can't be sure when their names are written in stone.  Rev 2:17 says it happens when they "overcometh".  This gets into stuff that I'd have to hypothesize.  I'm never very comfortable doing that.  
This is what I know in my heart:   I can not teach a person that once they accept Jesus as Lord and Savior they can rest assured that God will lead and guide them so that they will be granted entrance into His kingdom, no matter what.  
I cannot do it.  
Salvation is much too complicated for me to do that.  It would be too easy for someone to never be saved, yet, think they have been.
Let's face it, if a person is living in Christ they pretty much know it anyway.
If they aren't living in Christ, something didn't happen that should have.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2009)

Banjo said:


> We agree.....
> 
> This is DANGEROUS because the children are told that they are SAVED...usually based on some kind of decision THEY made or some prayer THEY prayed with someone.  Many (if not most) Baptists will always go back and say....I know I am saved because I walked the aisle when I was 12 and got baptized.  I have heard mommas so saddened because of the lifestyle their children are leading say..."Well, I know he is saved because he accepted Jesus into his heart when he was 9."
> 
> ...



So when the verse says that Jesus left the ninty and nine to find His LOST sheep, doesn't mean anything? He really didn't leave the ninty and nine to bring the lost sheep back?

Well I was baptized at 12 if you're talking about me and I knew exactly what it meant. There were boundaries that I had even when I was lost for many years, that other people around me never had and I couldn't really understand why, until I learned about the work of the Holy Spirit. That's when I went from a 12 yr old on milk to a Jesus freak eating the meat of the word.

Jesus did leave the ninty and nine and came and got me and now I perservere. Believe it or not.
Are you saying if you're saved and fall away and don't perservere that you are lost and unsaved?


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I don't mean to judge you, not at all.  But all scripture must be included.
> 
> When all scripture are used together:  ok then you need to do the same thing
> 
> ...



I am living for Christ. I have been baptized(not that that would get me a free pass), I could still get in without being baptized.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 16, 2009)

It's called predestination and the Elect.


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## pigpen1 (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I don't know.  We can't be sure when their names are written in stone.  Rev 2:17 says it happens when they "overcometh".



 We can be sure, who are they that Overcometh???1 John 5:4-5

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?KJV 

 This explains when a person "overcometh"......so why can't you be sure when it happens???


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Quote from Pigpen  "Ronnie what about those who's new name is written in stone, where does that get erased???
> 
> I don't know.  We can't be sure when their names are written in stone.  Rev 2:17 says it happens when they "overcometh".  This gets into stuff that I'd have to hypothesize.  I'm never very comfortable doing that.
> This is what I know in my heart:   I can not teach a person that once they accept Jesus as Lord and Savior they can rest assured that God will lead and guide them so that they will be granted entrance into His kingdom, no matter what.
> ...



Well if it's that complicated, no wonder people run in the other direction. If you don't understand it how can you bring someone to Christ?

Jesus said my YOKE is light. You seem to wanna load people up with so much "work" that they can't even comprehend how they can be saved. 

Stay away from my unsaved friends and family, please.

I've seen people saved in a twinkling of an eye and fall to their knees in awe of our Lord. And nobody heaped a bunch of works on them as soon as they got up. Here's your list of stuff...you've got to do this before you're really saved. It's just not that hard.

You get saved and the Holy Spirit convicts you and guides you. You wanna read the Bible, you wanna go to church, you wanna get baptized, you wanna serve the Lord, you wanna love others as yourself......you don't have to "act" as if you do all that or go out of your way to make sure you are doing it down to a T, Christ leads and convicts you.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> We can be sure, who are they that Overcometh???1 John 5:4-5
> 
> 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
> 
> ...


I agree
It just ain't that hard.
I stayed away from God for a long time, because I was raised into thinking of all the things I had to do everyday to prove I was saved. I couldn't do it, even though others seemed to be able to...it was too hard, too much, I ran away.
I was wrong, loving and living for Christ is the easiest thing I've ever done, know why...because I WANT to because I am saved...that's my proof of salvation....I thirst for HIM....I yearn for Him. I love and want to devour the word.  That's my proof.


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## pigpen1 (Feb 16, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Well if it's that complicated, no wonder people run in the other direction. If you don't understand it how can you bring someone to Christ?
> 
> Jesus said my YOKE is light. You seem to wanna load people up with so much "work" that they can't even comprehend how they can be saved.
> 
> ...



 AMEN!!! 
 The reason people can't understand salvation, is because they mix to much up in it. They confuse water baptism and the Baptism of the Spirit... The Spirit is essential  but water is not for salvation. Remember One Faith, One Lord, and One Baptism...if we add water to this then it would be two Baptisms...


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2009)

My daddy drove himself insane....seriously....trying to be perfect. He couldn't be perfect....he messed up all the time....like we all do (by the way that was the purpose of the work on cross). Lost his temper with us, his children...lost his patience with us, said a cuss word....drank a beer at the beach. 
He would go into a depression so bad that he had to have shock treatments, for trying to perfect and regretting his sins. Then he'd be ok for a while, then about every 10 yrs he'd do the same thing again.

He was the most kind gentle man you could ever meet. Loved Jesus and treated us good, and took care of us and made sure we went to church. He understood the Bible better than anyone I know.....until he'd get too deep into worrying about how he was gonna be perfect and get us to be perfect so we would go to heaven.  For one thing he read one too many pamplets and books that people would bring to the door.

Poor daddy, he's with Jesus now, or at least in peace and will be with Jesus and his wife and all his children. Because of him, we are all saved.


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## Bigcountry30662 (Feb 16, 2009)

I have to say the "If saved,always saved" I like that,As for Ronnie T's scenario I have to agree if a saved person did something like that Im sure God would not be very pleased with you,but I do not think that would make you loose your salvation if you were truly saved in the first place. I do think you would have to answer for it,just because you are saved doesnt mean the temptations will stop coming.


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## pigpen1 (Feb 16, 2009)

Bigcountry30662 said:


> I have to say the "If saved,always saved" I like that,As for Ronnie T's scenario I have to agree if a saved person did something like that Im sure God would not be very pleased with you,but I do not think that would make you loose your salvation if you were truly saved in the first place. I do think you would have to answer for it,just because you are saved doesnt mean the temptations will stop coming.



 AMEN! that's where the chastising hand comes in, He will whip his children, but not someone Else's....without chastisement we are *******s and not sons..


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2009)

Bigcountry30662 said:


> I have to say the "If saved,always saved" I like that,As for Ronnie T's scenario I have to agree if a saved person did something like that Im sure God would not be very pleased with you,but I do not think that would make you loose your salvation if you were truly saved in the first place. I do think you would have to answer for it,just because you are saved doesnt mean the temptations will stop coming.



Right on. I agree with a lot if not most of what Ronnie T posts.
But we are still going to sin, that's why Jesus died on the cross....He knew we couldn't do it. We don't become perfect when we get saved, we get forgiven for not being perfect.
And if we are saved we TRY not to sin, sometimes we still do.

And yes, we have to die to temptation, temptation never dies.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> AMEN! that's where the chastising hand comes in, He will whip his children, but not someone Else's....without chastisement we are *******s and not sons..



Oh yes He will.
I get thumped on the head quite often, too. I try, and I try, I still mess up. Usually for me it's anger and a cuss word....thump. Or not helping someone that I should've helped...thump.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> We can be sure, who are they that Overcometh???1 John 5:4-5
> 
> 4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
> 
> ...




I can for me, but I can't for someone else.


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## Bigcountry30662 (Feb 16, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Right on.
> But we are still going to sin, that's why Jesus died on the cross....He knew we couldn't do it. We don't become perfect when we get saved, we get forgiven for not being perfect.
> And if we are saved we TRY not to sin, sometimes we still do.
> 
> And yes, we have to die to temptation, temptation never dies.


  I agree with that


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## Lead Poison (Feb 16, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Right on. I agree with a lot if not most of what Ronnie T posts.
> But we are still going to sin, that's why Jesus died on the cross....He knew we couldn't do it. We don't become perfect when we get saved, we get forgiven for not being perfect.
> And if we are saved we TRY not to sin, sometimes we still do.
> 
> And yes, we have to die to temptation, temptation never dies.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I can for me, but I can't for someone else.



When someone you know has been saved you can't see things about them that they have overcome?
No they aren't perfect and neither am I, nor you. But we have become overcomers of the things of the world...we are in this world, but not OF this world.  And being in this sinned filled world, we are going to trip up and stumble all the way to the pearly gate....BUT...we're forgiven....thank you God for your son Jesus.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 16, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> My daddy drove himself insane....seriously....trying to be perfect. He couldn't be perfect....he messed up all the time....like we all do (by the way that was the purpose of the work on cross). Lost his temper with us, his children...lost his patience with us, said a cuss word....drank a beer at the beach.
> He would go into a depression so bad that he had to have shock treatments, for trying to perfect and regretting his sins. Then he'd be ok for a while, then about every 10 yrs he'd do the same thing again.
> 
> He was the most kind gentle man you could ever meet. Loved Jesus and treated us good, and took care of us and made sure we went to church. He understood the Bible better than anyone I know.....until he'd get too deep into worrying about how he was gonna be perfect and get us to be perfect so we would go to heaven.  For one thing he read one too many pamplets and books that people would bring to the door.
> ...



I'm sorry he worried so much about this but this is what Grace is for. There is nothing you can do to merit the salvation God offers. Nothing.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Well if it's that complicated, no wonder people run in the other direction. If you don't understand it how can you bring someone to Christ?
> There is more to it than you speak of.  You say that you've seen people saved in the twinking of an eye.  You know no such thing.  You know of yourself, but not for sure for someone else.  You know what you feel, but that might not count
> 
> 
> ...


You're talking a little too fast for me in the last paragraph. 

You're making way too much of the things I written.
In my Christian circle, we simply don't speak in terms of "Once Saved Always Saved".   We speak of becoming a Child of God and then living for Him.
That's it.  Plain and simple.  We sin, get forgiveness.  We live for Christ - and go to heaven.  And we never worry about our salvation.

And we don't try to insult people just because we disagree with them.  I hope I haven't with you.

God Bless


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## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> When someone you know has been saved you can't see things about them that they have overcome?
> No they aren't perfect and neither am I, nor you. But we have become overcomers of the things of the world...we are in this world, but not OF this world.  And being in this sinned filled world, we are going to trip up and stumble all the way to the pearly gate....BUT...we're forgiven....thank you God for your son Jesus.




Totally agree.  Without the continued forgiveness of God, I'd be in lots of trouble.


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## earl (Feb 16, 2009)

When you say you have to answer for what you do , does this mean that when you reach heaven you will be ''whipped'' or ''chastised''?
I am having a hard time reconciling being forgiven of your sins with the chastising and then the grace mentioned by Celtic.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2009)

There will be no whippins in heaven.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> There will be no whippins in heaven.



Right..... and no tears. My crown might be goldplated though...

Just kidding of course.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> You're talking a little too fast for me in the last paragraph.
> 
> You're making way too much of the things I written.
> In my Christian circle, we simply don't speak in terms of "Once Saved Always Saved".   We speak of becoming a Child of God and then living for Him.
> ...



No you haven't insulted me. It just seems like you worry a lot, maybe not...might just be my perception. And I just want you to have joy and not be so hard on yourself.

I hope I haven't insulted you either.
We will all be in heaven together and that's the important thing, and try to take as many with us as we can.


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## earl (Feb 16, 2009)

Just trying to understand big and pigpen's post.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> I'm sorry he worried so much about this but this is what Grace is for. There is nothing you can do to merit the salvation God offers. Nothing.



He was raised baptist but also decided to go to some other churches and got tangled up with JW's pamplets and being so nice he'd let them in...etc etc...and other groups too. He just got confused of which group was right or wrong and he tried to do it all. Too much contradiction.
At that time, I guess we didn't know where to get help, I mean spiritual help. Everyone he talked with thought they were right. He'd had shellshock too from WW2 so it was a combination of things. 

Anyway I guess the ol' debil will torment folks any way he can.
My dad being sick like that was one reason I ran far away from the church....gee if it makes you nuts and pray and cry for days, I don't want it.
We hadn't all come back to the Lord when my daddy died and I regret that. I read letters that he'd written to Dr Graham and all sort of pastors asking for prayer for his children. 

One reason I like 'simple'.


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## Bigcountry30662 (Feb 16, 2009)

earl said:


> Just trying to understand big and pigpen's post.


 To explain the chastising and answering for what you do. I meant that when you are saved and do something that god doesnt approve of you will answer for it and pigpen said we will be chastised, all that meaning god will do something to get your attention to let you know you messed up and need to straighten up (in a nut shell)getting late so I hope I explained it clear enough.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 17, 2009)

earl said:


> Just trying to understand big and pigpen's post.



Sort of how we forgive our children but we still punish them or correct them or talk to them.

I can do something that I shouldn't and be instantly convicted of it. Then I feel guilty, and bad, just like our children do when we scold them.  Usually I'll ask the person that I offended for forgiveness or correct how I wronged them and than ask God for forgiveness or vice versa.  Just like you'd tell a child to take a piece of candy back to the store that they didn't pay for, even if they didn't intend on stealing it, just too little to know they can't just take candy out of the store. How embarrassing that is for them....but they learn.

Ramblin' Rose...LOL


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## mtnwoman (Feb 17, 2009)

Bigcountry30662 said:


> To explain the chastising and answering for what you do. I meant that when you are saved and do something that god doesnt approve of you will answer for it and pigpen said we will be chastised, all that meaning god will do something to get your attention to let you know you messed up and need to straighten up (in a nut shell)getting late so I hope I explained it clear enough.



Makes sense to me...

God thumps my head....then I


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## earl (Feb 17, 2009)

To summarize . If you are saved ,you will go to heaven unscathed irregardless of your state of grace ? Gotta go to bed on that one.


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