# tom vs hen



## Jason Huckaby (Nov 9, 2010)

I never hunted turkey so not sure of this answer.

Why can you only shoot Toms and not hens?   is it hens cant be eat?


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 9, 2010)

Yep....hens are poisonous.  Has something to do with the estrogen.


----------



## Dupree (Nov 9, 2010)

hens are nesting in the spring and we dont have a fall season.


----------



## hawglips (Nov 10, 2010)

It's a decision the game department makes based on turkey biology.  Toms can breed many hens, so they are expendable.  Hens raise the poults, and are very vulnerable during nesting, so if the goal is a growing population, protecting hens is a good thing to do.


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 11, 2010)

Hens are very tasty unless they are shot with pixie dust. A population can still grow with a fall season and the shooting of hens.


----------



## hawglips (Nov 11, 2010)

Hens are especially tasty if shot by pixie dust since none of the shot remains in the meat.


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 11, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Hens are especially tasty if shot by pixie dust since none of the shot remains in the meat.



That's cuz it bounces off.


----------



## hawglips (Nov 11, 2010)

Mzlhunter1 said:


> That's cuz it bounces off.



...at 200 yds...


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 11, 2010)

hawglips said:


> ...at 200 yds...



And I'm sure some fool that uses it has tried a shot at that range


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 11, 2010)

Took this jake last week on the Pa fall opener. Id say lead #4's did there job just fine.


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 11, 2010)

I still say it's cuz hens are poisonous.


----------



## silentK (Nov 11, 2010)

dang man...you kilt the krap out of that one...


whats pixie dust.....is it like hoochie dust....you know..that glittery lotion type stuff that the girls be wearin now days...


----------



## hawglips (Nov 11, 2010)

Mzlhunter1 said:


> Took this jake last week on the Pa fall opener. Id say lead #4's did there job just fine.



Nice job.

Looks like you had to beat him over the head with the gun.  That happens a lot with lead 4s....


----------



## the ben pearson hunter (Nov 11, 2010)

#4 close range = jelly head


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 11, 2010)

No need for that, 'lips. After the shot he didn't have much of a head left.


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 12, 2010)

Gatorb said:


> why would you want to shoot a hen?



I'd rather call in and shoot a hen inside 40yds during the fall season then i would kill a gobbler out of a blind over decoys, or shoot one standing 60yds out with #9 shot.


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 12, 2010)

Ah....we have another "I'm a better turkey hunter than you" discussion going...and it's only November.

Usually these don't get going until January.  It's gonna be a fun year for Arrow3 I see!


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 12, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Ah....we have another "I'm a better turkey hunter than you" discussion going...and it's only November.
> 
> Usually these don't get going until January.  It's gonna be a fun year for Arrow3 I see!



I don't see where I said anything like that, huntinfool. Just stating my preferences.


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 12, 2010)

I know I know....it does sound, however, a little condescending to other turkey hunters, no?

I prefer not to use decoys and blinds as well.  But I couldn't care less if someone else does.  It doesn't personally offend me like it does some folks. 

If I'm honest, I do consider myself a better turkey hunter than someone who sits on a field in a blind all day with a gobbler decoy.  I wasn't saying anything necessarily bad about your comment....just pointing out that it's the type of thing we get all hot and bothered about around January/February when all the deer hunters come over here.


----------



## hawglips (Nov 12, 2010)

Gatorb said:


> why would you want to shoot a hen?



I'd shoot a hen in the fall where they are legal.  I've often wondered if I'd get just about as much a thrill out of that as shooting a tom in the spring.   If it happens, I'll let you know.  I know Ray Eye prefers fall hunting over spring gobbler, and don't mind shooting hens a'tall.  I've only been out in the fall after turkeys three or four times (mostly to scout for spring), but I'm going to start doing it more regularly if I can swing it, because I can see how it is a whole lot of fun.  (Sure beats the heck out of sitting in a deer stand.)  Haven't pulled the trigger on one yet, but the ones that got in the rush zone were every bit as exciting as a spring gobbler approaching.



Mzlhunter1 said:


> No need for that, 'lips. After the shot he didn't have much of a head left.



With your skills, next time you might ought to grab him by the neck when he gets that close. 



Mzlhunter1 said:


> I'd rather call in and shoot a hen inside 40yds during the fall season then i would kill a gobbler out of a blind over decoys, or shoot one standing 60yds out with #9 shot.



Me too mzler.

But that little, lost, 4 month old jake looking for his mommy -- sure must have taken a lot of calling expertise and expensive calls to coax him in, and a fancy gun to kill him.  Poor little feller never had a chance...


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 12, 2010)

Hal'lips, one paragraph you don't know much about fall hunting and the next your an expert on how easy they are to call. If you knew anything about it you'd know that about this time of year the jakes who are now bigger than their mothers break off and form their own flocks and can also group up with other gobblers including longbeards. Id be willing to bet you that fall birds are as hard if not harder to call than a spring gobbler who has love on his mind. Take into consideration that while busting a flock the main objective is to scare the he** out of them so they scatter in all different directions. When you've called in and killed a few birds that are trying to regroup after being scared as all he** you'd have a different opinion on the matter. BTW, the call was made for me by a friend and the gun is nothing fancy, a Nova with a stock full choke. It probably costs more for a pocket full of that pixie dust you push than I have invested in either of them.


----------



## hawglips (Nov 12, 2010)

Come on mzlhunter.  Chill.  I'm teasing you.  We don't have a fall season.  I'm envious that you got good fall hunting opportunities, and I would LOVE to kill a poor little jake like that this fall.  And with what scant experience I have hunting in the fall, I would agree with you that calling in fall birds seems tougher than calling in spring gobblers.   But I base that just off of a few hunts.

I'm totally with you on the fall hunting and killing of hens, jakes or jennies. 

But let's set the record straight here -- you came in here busting on me and trumpeting your skills, so I'm just poking back at you in a light-hearted way.   I have little experience with fall birds.  But if you knew anything at all about TSS shot (which you obviously don't), you wouldn't be posting like you do busting on it and the "fools" who shoot it.   You know, it looks like you can dish it out, but have a hard time taking it.  

So, just invite me up to your neck of the woods and put me on some birds next fall.  You can give me some pointers.  And I'll bring some TSS shells for you to try....


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 12, 2010)

Leave the pixie dust at home and work up a load of lead #4's and I just might put you on some dumb young turkeys who can't wait to run back to their mother.


----------



## hawglips (Nov 12, 2010)

Is that an invite?  I could probably kill one of those dumb young ones with lead 4s if you made me.  But it would be a shame to let you remain ignorant about TSS.  Couldn't I bring just a few to demonstrate and compare with those lead 4s?


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 12, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Is that an invite?  I could probably kill one of those dumb young ones with lead 4s if you made me.  But it would be a shame to let you remain ignorant about TSS.  Couldn't I bring just a few to demonstrate and compare with those lead 4s?



If you donate all your #9 glitter to the hooches working the poles and come up here with some lead and ill put you on some fall birds.


----------



## hawglips (Nov 12, 2010)

Sounds to me like you're not really inviting me.  Maybe you're 'fraid you'll have to stop bashing me and TSS?  Or maybe you're just 'skeered you can't teach me nothing about fall birds?

C'mon hunter.  Give me an invite and let's swap some fall bird hunting knowledge for some TSS learning.


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 12, 2010)

That's funny because I was just pondering what all the glitter tossers would think when their leader killed a bird with lead and it died just fine. No fear here, I have no need to increase my range and put lots of pin holes in a turkey's head. I've been killing birds just fine for years with lead. Also, I've seen TSS in action at the local range, I won't mention names but I'm sure if you checked your sales records and looked up a fellow that lives up my way you could put 2 and 2 together. To make a long story short this fellow, a rather new turkey hunter was quite proud of all the little pin holes he could put in a piece of paper. He was all ready for turkey season and had his magic bullet that could solve his dilemna of tough to kill field birds, all the way out to 70yds. My opinion of the magic dust was made up that day. To me, turkey hunting has and will always be a inside 40yds sport. I have never had a problem humanely killing a turkey inside those parameters and therefore have no need for anything else. The offers is there if you use lead.


----------



## hawglips (Nov 14, 2010)

Mzlhunter1 said:


> That's funny because I was just pondering what all the glitter tossers would think when their leader killed a bird with lead and it died just fine.



I've never personally killed one past 38 yds with TSS -- within the arbitrary 40 yd line.   The only difference I've noticed on those I've killed with TSS compared to lead, is that the TSS birds don't flop very much.   But you won't have to worry 'bout me ever shooting lead at turkeys again.  It would be like going back to that '76 Chevy I drove in high school, after driving a '07 Silverado for a while.


----------



## Sugar Plum (Nov 14, 2010)

Mzlhunter1 said:


> Took this jake last week on the Pa fall opener. Id say lead #4's did there job just fine.



I think your jake was related to my tom! His head looked just like that too!


----------



## nhancedsvt (Nov 14, 2010)

I'll just split the difference and shoot 6s....

Already shaping up to be a fun year it looks like


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 15, 2010)

hawglips said:


> I've never personally killed one past 38 yds with TSS -- within the arbitrary 40 yd line.   The only difference I've noticed on those I've killed with TSS compared to lead, is that the TSS birds don't flop very much.   But you won't have to worry 'bout me ever shooting lead at turkeys again.  It would be like going back to that '76 Chevy I drove in high school, after driving a '07 Silverado for a while.



You said it, not me "the only difference I've noticed on those killed with TSS compared to lead, is that the TSS birds don't flop very much". That pretty much proves my point, dead is dead, who cares how many pin holes one can put in a circle. As long as one keeps their shots inside the 40yd mark there is no real reason lead cannot be used effectively.
I'm not saying you promote it but I suspect much of the lure to using a shot such as TSS is to increase effective kill range out past 40yds and beyond. I can't tell you how many birds I could have killed that hung up at 50-60 yds but to me the fun and challange of turkey hunting is having one of the smartest, wariest and regal game birds inside 40yds where his every sense is on high alert. Based on the fact that hunters have been killing turkeys with lead for longer than any of us have been around and that I've never had a problem humanely killing a bird inside the range I prefer them within I see no reason to waste my money on TSS.


----------



## Gadget (Nov 15, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> I know I know....it does sound, however, a little condescending to other turkey hunters, no?





Not hard to figure out which banned member he is..........


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 15, 2010)

Gadget said:


> Not hard to figure out which banned member he is..........



Who might that be, Gidget?


----------



## Hobie (Nov 15, 2010)

Gadget said:


> Not hard to figure out which banned member he is..........



Gadget 
I can asure you that mzlhunter is not Frank.Mzl and I have been hunting together about 5 or more times this year in Ny and PA with my new turkey dog 
Mzl resides in PA and to my knowledge he has not ever been to TN
Hobie


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 15, 2010)

I had a feeling you'd delete your post once you figured out you were wrong, Gadget. Its ok, even the mighty Gadget makes mistakes. I go by Mzlhunter on any forums I'm on and alway have. If I was a bettting man id bet you have a better chance of getting smallpox then you do that trumpet from Frank you were asking about in your now deleted post.


----------



## Gadget (Nov 15, 2010)

Mzlhunter1 said:


> I had a feeling you'd delete your post once you figured out you were wrong. Its ok, even the mighty Gidget makes mistakes. I go by Mzlhunter on any forums I'm on and always have.




No, haven't figured out I was wrong, only enough doubt that I'm not sure I'm right, but one thing is for sure mzlsqeaker, you have the same condescending, childish, "hollier than thou" attitude.


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 15, 2010)

Nah Gadget, you're wrong. I'm just an average Joe who likes to turkey hunt. Hal and I were having a little fun going back and forth about our shot of choice. You let your paranoia get the best of ya and got all worried that Mr. Cox snuck back on here.


----------



## hawglips (Nov 15, 2010)

Mzlhunter1 said:


> You said it, not me "the only difference I've noticed on those killed with TSS compared to lead, is that the TSS birds don't flop very much". That pretty much proves my point, dead is dead, who cares how many pin holes one can put in a circle. As long as one keeps their shots inside the 40yd mark there is no real reason lead cannot be used effectively.



Who said lead cannot be used effectively?

You come in here bad-mouthing stuff you know nothing about.   Your insincerity is obvious -- you can't make up your mind whether you should bash TSS on the basis that it is impotent and will bounce off birds, or whether you should bash it because it is a magic 70 yard bullet.





Mzlhunter1 said:


> I'm not saying you promote it but I suspect much of the lure to using a shot such as TSS is to increase effective kill range out past 40yds and beyond. I can't tell you how many birds I could have killed that hung up at 50-60 yds but to me the fun and challange of turkey hunting is having one of the smartest, wariest and regal game birds inside 40yds where his every sense is on high alert. Based on the fact that hunters have been killing turkeys with lead for longer than any of us have been around and that I've never had a problem humanely killing a bird inside the range I prefer them within I see no reason to waste my money on TSS.



Puh-leeze.   

I'll continue to shoot the most effective ammo at turkeys that I can.   That's the least I can do to show my respect for that regal game bird.  

You do what you want to.


----------



## wisturkeyhunter (Nov 15, 2010)

Hal
Is there a test comparing tss,hevi shot (or similiar density) and lead on something similiar to real flesh or even real birds? I'd like to take a look at it. 
Talking a lot of samples of wounds from the different shot, not speculation because the shot penatrates hard metals better, a bird flops less,or a computer says so. Not the tss website pictures either. 
I've breasted out alot of pheasants this fall and previous falls that were shot with extended range,hevi shot, and remington hd. So I know how the stuff penatrates compared to lead.


----------



## hawglips (Nov 16, 2010)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Hal
> Is there a test comparing tss,hevi shot (or similiar density) and lead on something similiar to real flesh or even real birds? I'd like to take a look at it.
> Talking a lot of samples of wounds from the different shot, not speculation because the shot penatrates hard metals better, a bird flops less,or a computer says so. Not the tss website pictures either.
> I've breasted out alot of pheasants this fall and previous falls that were shot with extended range,hevi shot, and remington hd. So I know how the stuff penatrates compared to lead.



Wis,

Other than the tests and demonstrations you mention, I don't know of any more.  Of course, live field testing on wild turkeys has shown impressive (an understatement) lethality.

Those three types of shot you say you saw in pheasants have nothing in common with TSS.  Extended range, hevi-shot and HD are all just 1g/cc denser than lead.  Hardly any difference in density between them and lead.  Lead is 11g/cc, vs 12g/cc for each of those other three.

By contrast, the difference in density between TSS and lead is *7 times *greater than the difference between lead and those three you mention.  11g/cc vs 18g/cc.

No offense to you, and not wanting to hurt anyone's feelings or attack anyone's ego.  But there is no debate on that point.  Anyone who says TSS doesn't penetrate MUCH better than any of those above, and especially lead, does not know of what they speak.  Period.  The 18g/cc tungsten is used in armor piercing applications in the military.  There is no question regarding it's superior penetrating characteristics among those that know anything about it.  It's settled science and old info these days.  There is no debate to engage in.

And here's the latest TSS load I'm working on -- "buckshot."

I'm been loading up #1 TSS shot for deer.  The reason for that size, is because #1 TSS out penetrates 00 Buck on sheet metal, while giving about 5 times the pellet count.  For anyone who's counting, that's out penetrating lead shot about *13 sizes larger*.  So, you're replacing a 00 buck shell (about 15 pellets) with a TSS shell that penetrates better than the 00 buck, and has about 70 pellets.  Seems like a no-brainer to me and some others, so we're trying it out on live deer.

So far there have been a couple deer shot with the #1 TSS shells.  The first deer shot with the #1 TSS was a deer standing still at 67 yds (lasered).  It knocked the deer off his feet at that distance.  He got up and the guy shot at him again with 00 buck, and he ran about 50 yds where he lay dead as soon as he could climb down from the stand and go to him.  Upon cleaning the deer, they verified 16 of those #1 TSS pellets hit the deer, though they thought there were more than that.  Of those (at least) 16 pellets, all but 3 of them passed completely through the deer.    One 00 buck pellet hit the deer in the gut area, and it did not pass through.

Another guy loaded up some of the same #1 shells, and his buddy shot one at an estimated 40 yds this weekend in the head.  Here is his report, "The deer, being shot in the head dropped where he stood. I didn't see him dressed. A couple of the shot hit the antlers. I have seen a number of them hit with lead [buckshot], but never seen the side of a beam split length wise with a gap in it. The guy was in a tree stand and the shot was on a downard angle, and the antler had an inch gouge in it before it split the beam. "

Another guy shot one with the #1 TSS at 25 yds and it demolished his shoulder bone. 

There should be a lot more reports before this deer season is out, but so far, it appears it will also be as awesome for larger game like deer, hogs and coyote, as it is for turkey, ducks and geese.

Whether the test medium be deer, turkey, ducks, geese, coyotes, stop signs, ballistics gel, roofing metal, plywood, or computer models -- the result has been the same.  TSS penetrates circles around larger and heavier lead, hevishot, HD, etc.  It is just not debatable -- within the realms of reason and fact.

The only question on penetration remaining, is pinpointing the optimum shot size for the game desired.  Right now, it appears that TSS anywhere from 5 to 15 sizes smaller than lead gives about the same penetration  - depending on how far up the shot size chart you are working.   We're there with turkeys -- #9 to #7.5 is where it's at.  (I think #9 is optimum.)  Still working on deer, but it looks like it's going to be somewhere between #3 and #T.

Now, if someone wants to bash me for shooting something much better than lead and hevishot -- and "not needed" -- then fire away.   

But you're wasting your time trying to refute the well known facts about how it penetrates.

I'll be using TSS on turkeys for as long as it is available for me to use.   It's just a no-brainer.


----------



## Trizey (Nov 16, 2010)

Mzlhunter1 said:


> Leave the pixie dust at home and work up a load of lead #4's and I just might put you on some dumb young turkeys who can't wait to run back to their mother.




I like this statement.....coming from someone who just shot a jake.  WOW what an accomplishment.


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 16, 2010)

Trizey said:


> I like this statement.....coming from someone who just shot a jake.  WOW what an accomplishment.



I'm guessing by your statement you don't hunt turkeys in the fall and never have. It's quite a bit a harder than you think. In fact, the fall turkey hunting tradition has been around way before spring. The turkeys hunters that were around before our time often looked down on spring hunting as being to easy and they didn't have near the turkey populations that we have. Also, FYI, I haven't shot a jake in the spring since I was 14 or so but I gladly shoot hens and jakes in the fall.


----------



## Trizey (Nov 16, 2010)

Mzlhunter1 said:


> I'm guessing by your statement you don't hunt turkeys in the fall and never have. It's quite a bit a harder than you think. In fact, the fall turkey hunting tradition has been around way before spring. The turkeys hunters that were around before our time often looked down on spring hunting as being to easy and they didn't have near the turkey populations that we have. Also, FYI, I haven't shot a jake in the spring since I was 14 or so but I gladly shoot hens and jakes in the fall.



I don't hunt the fall season, because it's not legal.  I've read many times of the old turkey hunters and their thoughts on Spring hunting.  Fact is....I don't knowingly shoot jakes or hens.


----------



## wisturkeyhunter (Nov 16, 2010)

Hal
I was talking about how people will say nitro 7's will shoot clean through a turkey when similiar density 4's won't reliably shoot through much smaller birds at the same distance. It doesn't add up just like you saying you can use 9's and be the same as lead 4 (1=00 buck).


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 16, 2010)

Trizey said:


> I don't hunt the fall season, because it's not legal.  I've read many times of the old turkey hunters and their thoughts on Spring hunting.  Fact is....I don't knowingly shoot jakes or hens.



I don't shoot them either during the spring season. Just curious, if you had a fall season what would be your reason for not shooting hens and jakes?


----------



## hawglips (Nov 16, 2010)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Hal
> I was talking about how people will say nitro 7's will shoot clean through a turkey when similiar density 4's won't reliably shoot through much smaller birds at the same distance. It doesn't add up just like you saying you can use 9's and be the same as lead 4 (1=00 buck).



Actually, TSS 9 pellets penetrate better than lead 4s, in real life tin testing, and about the same in the computer models -- but you get about 200 more pellets per ounce, and patterns that hold together much better.  And #1 TSS penetrates much better than 00 buck (lead) on both sheet metal and live deer.  But if one understands what determines pellet penetration (Energy Density), it makes perfect of sense.

Finding hevishot in pheasants which were shot at who knows what distance and who knows what angle is no indicator of anything about TSS or hevishot.  But I can say that TSS 9s penetrate about like #5 hevishot in my known distance velocity and angle tin testing, and in the computer programs.

Gaswamp, I'm hoping some day they'll be available to non-reloaders.  I've looked into, and haven't given up, but ATF makes it tough on folks would would set up a small custom loading shop.


----------



## wisturkeyhunter (Nov 16, 2010)

Its clear you making this up as you go. Guess whatever fits your agenda at the time.
Lead and 12 g/cc stuff is almost the same. (even though you've posted all over that hevi shot is far superiour)
tss hits harder than lead 5 shot sizes bigger
tss hits harder than lead 13 times bigger

Don't know why I'm debating this with the guy that imports/pimps the stuff and obviously just throws numbers out. How about some pictures of deer carcasses with number 1 pellet holes. Lol your a joke. 00 buck tss needs to be outlawed terrorist could shoot down planes I'd guess. From here to Georgia.


----------



## wisturkeyhunter (Nov 16, 2010)

Anybody on here ever shot a female dove,grouse,woodcock or quail?


----------



## hawglips (Nov 16, 2010)

Wis, you are not debating.  A meaningful debate requires at least an attempt at honesty and adherence to facts.  Neither of which seems important to you, if your above post is any indication.  You're just running your mouth about something you (for some curious reason) can't comprehend, and evidently, aren't interested in understanding.  And you're making up stuff about what I say and do on top of that.  That's very naughty of you young fellow.

But I'm not sure why it bothers you so much.  It's interesting to contemplate.   There is nothing to debate about the comparitive penetration.  It's fact.  It's like trying to explain the world isn't flat to someone who isn't at all interested in what shape it really is, but wants to ridicule those that are interested in it.  

And no, why did you change my words from "pentrates" to "hit harder" that lead 5 times, or 13 times larger?  You just made that all up.  How hard something hits (whatever that means), is not necessarily the same thing as how far it penetrates.  Depends on what you mean by "harder hitting".  If it was, kinetic energy not energy density would determine that.  But it doesn't, as I've explained COUNTLESS times.  Of course, I'm saying this to the guy who doesn't care to understand what makes a pellet penetrate better than another one, so I'm just wasting my breath on someone who doesn't want to know, and evidently, can't understand the concept anyway.  It's a simple concept to me, but I guess one that is very difficult for some folks to grasp.  

For example, lead 4s going the same speed as TSS 9s carry 3.14 ft lbs of energy, while TSS 9s carry a little over half that much -- 1.91 ft lbs.  Yet is penetrates at least on par with it.  Scratch your head on that one.... and then say I'm maaking it up some more.  That'll work.   (Hint: it's not KE, but KE divided by cross sectional area of the pellet that determines penetration).

And Wis ole boy, you seem to be getting the cause and effect backwards about me and my TSS pimpery.  The pimpery came well after the facts of how it works were established in my mind, and when it was ascertained that the stuff in the sizes needed for turkeys is not and will not be commercially available for the foreseeable future, anywhere else.  So I started bringing it in for those who want to load it up some.  But of course, I'm wasting my time since I'm 100% sure you don't care about that inconvenient fact either.  

But I'll be glad to buy the TSS from you instead of going to the trouble to do it myself, if you want to step up.  I'll place my orders with you as soon as my current personal stash is used up and you can get established selling it.  Let me know.


----------



## wisturkeyhunter (Nov 16, 2010)

Does hardness of the shot and the material being shot into figure into the formula? Also if nobody has done extensive testing comparing different shot materials how does anyone know it works out for all different shot material?


----------



## MKW (Nov 16, 2010)

*...*

In my mind, TSS is a long range solution, nothing more. Many commercially available turkey loads will get you out to 50yrds. That covers the 40yrd standard, plus 10yrds of cushion. If someone desires to shoot turkeys beyond 50yrds, TSS is the way. I, personally, have no use for it. 

Mike


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 16, 2010)

Hal, do you carry a camo pocket protector in the woods?


----------



## hawglips (Nov 16, 2010)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Does hardness of the shot and the material being shot into figure into the formula? Also if nobody has done extensive testing comparing different shot materials how does anyone know it works out for all different shot material?



I'd say yes to the first one, since my testing #9 TSS against #4 lead shows an advantage to #9 TSS when the test medium is sheet metal, but it is about the same in ballistics gelatin. 

Since it's been demonstrated to penetrate better against sheet metal, plywood, ducks, deer, turkeys and ballistics gelatin, I would assume it will work better against most any other material also.


----------



## hawglips (Nov 16, 2010)

MKW said:


> In my mind, TSS is a long range solution, nothing more. Many commercially available turkey loads will get you out to 50yrds. That covers the 40yrd standard, plus 10yrds of cushion. If someone desires to shoot turkeys beyond 50yrds, TSS is the way. I, personally, have no use for it.
> Mike



Couple points.  There are many commercial loads that are not good past 30 yds.   40 yds is an arbitrary number based on past gun/ammo limitations anyway.  Most of the old timers would have loved to have 50-60 yd turkey ammo, and some of them tried it and wrote about it.  

TSS has so much excess penetration, you can load up the shell to do other things no other shot can accomplish also simply because they are limited either by pellet count or penetration oomph, or both. 

Gauge limitations are erased by TSS also.   

And its a much more effective shot in thick cover.  It takes brush out of the equation when a situation arises.


----------



## MKW (Nov 16, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Couple points.  There are many commercial loads that are not good past 30 yds.   40 yds is an arbitrary number based on past gun/ammo limitations anyway.  Most of the old timers would have loved to have 50-60 yd turkey ammo, and some of them tried it and wrote about it.



Yes, but there are plenty that are good out to 50yrds. I'm not an old timer, but I have no desire for MY turkey hunting to be a long range endeavor. 



> TSS has so much excess penetration, you can load up the shell to do other things no other shot can accomplish also simply because they are limited either by pellet count or penetration oomph, or both.



"excess penetration" is a waste, IMO. Enough is enough. And "enough" is when it kills the quarry that is shot at. 



> Gauge limitations are erased by TSS also.



As you know, I turkey hunt exclusively with a 20ga and I am not the least bit handicapped by that fact...all while using commercially available  ammunition.   



> And its a much more effective shot in thick cover.  It takes brush out of the equation when a situation arises.



So, now you are advocating shooting thru brush with TSS?? That's irresponsible...at best.

Mike


----------



## wisturkeyhunter (Nov 16, 2010)

Is there anything tss can't do?


----------



## Newman (Nov 17, 2010)

After reading about how well this TSS penetrates every thing that you can think of putting in front of it, I'd be too scared to use it. 

Aren't you afraid that, while turkey hunting, when you take the shot, you'll cut down a 1" sapling 10 yards from your gun, continuing on to pass clean through a turkey at 20 yards, only to go right through a deer that just happens to be behind the turkey (killing 2 chipmunks, a squirrel and 5 grasshoppers along the way) only to end up shooting the tires out of you're truck 1/4 mile away?


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 17, 2010)

Hal, you have yet to prove TSS's benefits at ranges 40yds and in other than it puts more small holes in a turkeys head. That brings us back to the point that the appeal to those who use it is increased range.


----------



## silentK (Nov 17, 2010)

Newman said:


> After reading about how well this TSS penetrates every thing that you can think of putting in front of it, I'd be too scared to use it.
> 
> Aren't you afraid that, while turkey hunting, when you take the shot, you'll cut down a 1" sapling 10 yards from your gun, continuing on to pass clean through a turkey at 20 yards, only to go right through a deer that just happens to be behind the turkey (killing 2 chipmunks, a squirrel and 5 grasshoppers along the way) only to end up shooting the tires out of you're truck 1/4 mile away?


----------



## Gadget (Nov 17, 2010)

MKW said:


> In my mind, TSS is a long range solution, nothing more. Many commercially available turkey loads will get you out to 50yrds. That covers the 40yrd standard, plus 10yrds of cushion. If someone desires to shoot turkeys beyond 50yrds, TSS is the way. I, personally, have no use for it.
> 
> Mike





> I try to read every post about TSS that I can find cause I think that  it has a great future in turkey hunting loads. Y'all keep up the  research!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I've read other comments like this that you've made over on oldgobbler, A bit contradictory don't you think? I've also seen you post where you've shot 1,000's of dollars in ammo and dozens of chokes looking for the ultimate turkey load. Why do you shun TSS but then shoot federal heavyweight? Federal heavyweight is just a tick away from TSS, what are your motivations for shooting 15g shot but bashing 18g? Doesn't make any sense to me. The same arguments you make against TSS are the same arguments people have made against hevishot and heavyweight for years.

TSS can be abused just like any other ammo on the market, be it lead, hevishot or heavyweight.


----------



## MKW (Nov 17, 2010)

*...*



Gadget said:


> I've read other comments like this that you made over on oldgobbler, including asking Hal to load you up some. A bit contradictory don't you think? I've also seen you post where you've shot 1,000's of dollars in ammo and dozens of chokes looking for the ultimate turkey load. Why do you shun TSS so but then shoot hevishot and federal heavyweight? Federal heavyweight is just a tick away from TSS, what are you motivations for shooting 15g shot but bashing 18g? Doesn't make any sense to me. The same arguments you make against TSS are the same arguments people have made against hevishot and heavyweight for years.



I don't recall ever asking anyone to load some TSS for me. I think you are mistaken about that. 
As to your other comments...yes, I was once caught up in the choke/load game pretty seriously until I realized that good enough is good enough. When I first started with the 20ga for turkeys, there were not nearly as many choices in good ammo for the 20ga as there are today. I started with Hevi 13s (never could get lead to shoot very well)and then shot Nitros for a couple of years because they had the best pattern performance, then I switched to Federal Heavyweight and used that all last season with more than favorable results while having less pattern density. At 40yrds, the Feds throw patterns in the high 140s consistantly. That's plenty for MY hunting. What can I tell you, I've grown out of the "more holes in paper is better" mentality. I'm certainly not willing to start reloading and shooting #9s to get more holes in paper when TSS will do nothing to help me kill more birds, given my hunting style. Even when I have misjudged a couple of birds with what I have, the turkeys died. 
I have not bashed TSS. I've only said that inside the "arbitrary" 40yrds, it serves no purpose that I can see. 
Even out to 50yrds(especially with a 12ga), I see no need for it, given the ammo available to todays turkey hunter.

Mike


----------



## Hobie (Nov 17, 2010)

Gadget said:


> I've read other comments like this that you've made over on oldgobbler, A bit contradictory don't you think? I've also seen you post where you've shot 1,000's of dollars in ammo and dozens of chokes looking for the ultimate turkey load. Why do you shun TSS but then shoot federal heavyweight? Federal heavyweight is just a tick away from TSS, what are your motivations for shooting 15g shot but bashing 18g? Doesn't make any sense to me. The same arguments you make against TSS are the same arguments people have made against hevishot and heavyweight for years.
> 
> TSS can be abused just like any other ammo on the market, be it lead, hevishot or heavyweight.


Gadget didnt you and MKW have  argument last year and then you had the mods delete his post but not yours

What was that about

I do remember you bringing his family into it

Seems like you have an issue with him


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 17, 2010)

The mods will not just delete someone else's posts at your request.  Just wanted to point that out.  If they were deleted, there was a reason and it wasn't just 'cause "Gadget said so...".

Since we're on TSS....I'd love to try some out.  I'm a 20ga hunter as well.  I see MKW's point in that dead at 40 yards is dead at 40 yards.  But that's just as true using lead as it is TSS.

If TSS is more efficient and throws a better pattern at 40, then I don't see why I wouldn't consider it a superior load.  Seems like you can put more shot (because it's heavier...and thus you can go smaller) in the same space.  Why would I not want to do that?  

Seems like more shot in a load (at the same velocity) = less chance of an arbitrary miss.  But, then again, I haven't shot it.  I do know that heavyshot patterns by FAR better out of my 20 than anything else I've shot to date....it's kind of scary the difference.


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 17, 2010)

That's funny, there was a post the other day that Golden Boy Gadget made and once he realized he was wrong on who I was it mysteriously disapeared.


----------



## hawglips (Nov 17, 2010)

MKW said:


> Yes, but there are plenty that are good out to 50yrds. I'm not an old timer, but I have no desire for MY turkey hunting to be a long range endeavor.



Then why aren't you shooting 2-3/4" 7/8 shells with #8 lead when you turkey hunt?

You used to shoot Nitros 7s, because they patterned "twice as good as anything else" out there in long-range terms.  You even developed a cult following with that Rem/PG/Nitro 7s setup.

Now, last post I saw from you on the subject, you have switched to Federal Heavyweight 7s -- THE most long range 20 gauge shells commercially available -- loaded up with that dense 15g/cc shot.  You have no problem with you shooting the most long range 20 ga. loads at your disposal, but yet, you have a problem with me doing the same thing?

Makes no sense. 

Mike, have you ever shot at a turkey past 50 yds?  45 yds?  I haven't.  

You're judging me guilty of what you do, except, I've never done it.  

That doesn't bother you any? 



MKW said:


> "excess penetration" is a waste, IMO. Enough is enough. And "enough" is when it kills the quarry that is shot at.



Do you know what shells I shot last year at turkeys (in 12 gauge)?   No, you don't.  

But since you bring it up, I'll tell you.

I call them my T98CM shells.  "CM" for "Can't Miss."  What makes them different is that I'm taking the excess penetration and pushing it wider to decrease the chances of any misses close in, while still having enough oomp from the center of the pattern to kill every time at 50 yds.

Lot's of guys miss close in.  But that problem is diminished with my T98CMS.  That's the kind of thing that can be done with TSS.  And the surface is just being scratched. 



MKW said:


> As you know, I turkey hunt exclusively with a 20ga and I am not the least bit handicapped by that fact...all while using commercially available  ammunition.



I guess not, since you're shooting 15g/cc heavyweight shot that will kill out to 60+ yards.



MKW said:


> So, now you are advocating shooting thru brush with TSS?? That's irresponsible...at best.
> 
> Mike



I killed a bird through brush last year with the 20 gauge at 32 yds, and TSS #9s.  Nothing irresponsible AT ALL about it.  Perfectly safe, perfectly humane, perfectly sporting, and a nice reward after a lot of effort and time put into that particular timid bird.  I wouldn't have taken that shot had I been shooting inferior shells.  

And as you know, there is often some brush between the hunter and the bird that the hunter didn't see as he touched off the shot, only to be disappointed at the final result.  That problem is significantly diminished with TSS.


----------



## hawglips (Nov 17, 2010)

Mzlhunter1 said:


> Hal, you have yet to prove TSS's benefits at ranges 40yds and in other than it puts more small holes in a turkeys head. That brings us back to the point that the appeal to those who use it is increased range.



Once again, you demonstrate that you know not of what you speak. 

Have you made up your mind which argument you're going to stick with?  The TSS is pitiful and weak one, or the TSS is too powerful one?  I can't tell from the above post, as you seem to be saying that the holes are too small, and that the range is too far.  Which is it?  It makes no sense to argue so contradictorily.  Come down on one side or the other, and your posts will appear more sincere to me. 

I must say that it is very strange thing to read posts by folks who can not seem to make up their minds which argument to use to bash TSS and those that load/shoot it.  It's bizarre, for sure.  It seems almost like fragile egos feel like they are getting attacked by me and Gadget and others just becaue we are developing these groundbreaking TSS loads that are heads and shoulders more effective than anything heretofore loaded for turkeys.  You'd think guys would give some props instead attacking someone for building a better mousetrap.


----------



## Hobie (Nov 17, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Then why aren't you shooting 2-3/4" 7/8 shells with #8 lead when you turkey hunt?
> 
> You used to shoot Nitros 7s, because they patterned "twice as good as anything else" out there in long-range terms.  You even developed a cult following with that Rem/PG/Nitro 7s setup.
> 
> ...



Hal
Be very careful about asking MKW for pictures of the destruction of tukeys heads and yardage in which they have been shot
I got a few picture messages of his dead turkey from last sping and a few are just maggled  
Hobie


----------



## Hobie (Nov 17, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> The mods will not just delete someone else's posts at your request.  Just wanted to point that out.  If they were deleted, there was a reason and it wasn't just 'cause "Gadget said so...".
> 
> Since we're on TSS....I'd love to try some out.  I'm a 20ga hunter as well.  I see MKW's point in that dead at 40 yards is dead at 40 yards.  But that's just as true using lead as it is TSS.
> 
> ...



Huntinfool
I will not ever blast a mod because I once was one on a forum and it is a thankless job 
With that said last year I saw what both wrote and Gadget attacked his family and that was left up but MKW was deleted IMO if one got deleted both should of
Hobie


----------



## hawglips (Nov 17, 2010)

Hobie said:


> Hal
> Be very careful about asking MKW for pictures of the destruction of tukeys heads and yardage in which they have been shot
> I got a few picture messages of his dead turkey from last sping and a few are just maggled
> Hobie



Hobie, this is a confusing post.

I am not sure what your point is.  MKW is a turkey killer.  I have no doubt that he's very good at it.  I'm just pointing out the double standard he applies to me.


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 17, 2010)

Hobie said:


> Huntinfool
> I will not ever blast a mod because I once was one on a forum and it is a thankless job
> With that said last year I saw what both wrote and Gadget attacked his family and that was left up but MKW was deleted IMO if one got deleted both should of
> Hobie



Didn't debate that.  But the mods don't delete at the request of someone else.


----------



## MKW (Nov 17, 2010)

*...*



hawglips said:


> Hobie, this is a confusing post.
> 
> I am not sure what your point is.  MKW is a turkey killer.  I have no doubt that he's very good at it.  I'm just pointing out the double standard he applies to me.



Hal,
 There's no double standard that I can see. I'm not telling you that you should not shoot TSS. I don't care at all what you shoot or at what ranges you shoot it. I fully believe you when you say that you have never shot a turkey at long distances. My point is only that, in my mind, there is no need for anything more than I have now. Why is it not OK that I don't want to shoot TSS?? 

Mike


----------



## Gadget (Nov 17, 2010)

Hobie said:


> Huntinfool
> I will not ever blast a mod because I once was one on a forum and it is a thankless job
> With that said last year I saw what both wrote and Gadget attacked his family and that was left up but MKW was deleted IMO if one got deleted both should of
> Hobie




If that's so then why don't you go find the post and quote it for all to see? I can tell you why, because what your saying is an out right "LIE", I never attacked his family, I merely quoted him for what he told me to my face as I remember it, which I didn't think was anything derogatory in the first place. The disagreement was whether he told me he used to date a girl he pointed out to me at the NWTF national convention or whether he told me that they were just friends, either way, he was pointing her out to me to make a reference about how good looking she was......... so you tell me what part of that was an attack on his family ....


So go find the post that wasn't deleted and quote it........i'll be waiting.


----------



## Gadget (Nov 17, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Didn't debate that.  But the mods don't delete at the request of someone else.





Normally they don't, but if I request it they do....... ohh and by the way they will ban anyone I don't like or disagree with, they do this because secretly I own this forum and make all the rules here.....................


----------



## MKW (Nov 17, 2010)

*...*



Gadget said:


> If that's so then why don't you go find the post and quote it for all to see? I can tell you why, because what your saying is an out right "LIE", I never attacked his family, I merely quoted him for what he told me to my face as I remember it, which I didn't think was anything derogatory in the first place. The disagreement was whether he told me he used to date a girl he pointed out to me at the NWTF national convention or whether he told me that they were just friends, either way, he was pointing her out to me to make a reference about how good looking she was......... so you tell me what part of that was an attack on his family ....
> 
> 
> So go find the post that wasn't deleted and quote it........i'll be waiting.



I remember the "exchange" , but that has nothing to do with any of this anyway. Water under the bridge...as they say.

Mike


----------



## Gadget (Nov 17, 2010)

MKW said:


> I remember the "exchange" , but that has nothing to do with any of this anyway. Water under the bridge...as they say.
> 
> Mike




Sorry for bringing this up again, I consider it water under the bridge too and have no hard feelings, but I'm not gonna let him say that and get away with it.


----------



## Gadget (Nov 17, 2010)

MKW said:


> I don't recall ever asking anyone to load some TSS for me. I think you are mistaken about that.
> As to your other comments...yes, I was once caught up in the choke/load game pretty seriously until I realized that good enough is good enough. When I first started with the 20ga for turkeys, there were not nearly as many choices in good ammo for the 20ga as there are today. I started with Hevi 13s (never could get lead to shoot very well)and then shot Nitros for a couple of years because they had the best pattern performance, then I switched to Federal Heavyweight and used that all last season with more than favorable results while having less pattern density. At 40yrds, the Feds throw patterns in the high 140s consistantly. That's plenty for MY hunting. What can I tell you, I've grown out of the "more holes in paper is better" mentality. I'm certainly not willing to start reloading and shooting #9s to get more holes in paper when TSS will do nothing to help me kill more birds, given my hunting style. Even when I have misjudged a couple of birds with what I have, the turkeys died.
> I have not bashed TSS. I've only said that inside the "arbitrary" 40yrds, it serves no purpose that I can see.
> Even out to 50yrds(especially with a 12ga), I see no need for it, given the ammo available to todays turkey hunter.
> ...




Yes "Bash" may be too harsh of a word, but you are negative towards TSS, that is clear. You switched from hevishot to federal heavyweight I assume because you feel it is a better turkey load, well the same argument could be made for shooting TSS.

 I handload Federal heavyweight in 8's because I feel that the 7's will kill farther than I need, there fore I would rather trade more pellets for the killing range of 7's, that's why someone would shoot TSS 9's instead of 8's, hevishot 7's instead of 6 or lead 6 instead of lead 4's, it's all relative to the shot and it's capabilities.


I'm just going off memory, from a couple years ago, thought I remember reading a post where you asked Hal to load some up. Anyway the point I was trying to make is that you used to be excited and positive about TSS shot, the quote above shows that.


----------



## MKW (Nov 17, 2010)

Gadget said:


> Yes "Bash" may be too hash of a word, but you are negative towards TSS, that is clear. You switched from hevishot to federal heavyweight I assume because you feel it is a better turkey load, well the same argument could be made for shooting TSS.
> 
> I handload Federal heavyweight in 8's because I feel that the 7's will kill farther than I need, there fore I would rather trade more pellets for the killing range of 7's that I don't need, that's why someone would shoot TSS 9's instead of 8's, hevishot 7's instead of 6 or lead 6 instead of lead 4's, it's all relative to the shot and it's capabilities.



I understand that, but once you have sufficient pattern density at your self imposed range limit, why go with smaller pellets to get more pattern density?? I'd think that a hunter would want to shoot the biggest pellets he/she can once you achieve a good killing density at your personal range limit. 

Mike


----------



## MKW (Nov 17, 2010)

*...*



Gadget said:


> Sorry for bringing this up again, I consider it water under the bridge too and have no hard feelings, but I'm not gonna let him say that and get away with it.



Hobie is just trying to look out for me cause we are friends, and I appreciate it. 

Mike


----------



## Gadget (Nov 17, 2010)

MKW said:


> Hobie is just trying to look out for me cause we are friends, and I appreciate it.
> 
> Mike




understood, if Hobie wants to delete that I will delete mine and keep this on topic and away from a personal nature.


----------



## Gadget (Nov 17, 2010)

MKW said:


> I understand that, but once you have sufficient pattern density at your self imposed range limit, why go with smaller pellets to get more pattern density?? I'd think that a hunter would want to shoot the biggest pellets he/she can once you achieve a good killing density at your personal range limit.
> 
> Mike




Let me ask you this Mike. 

Since your already shooting 15g Federal Heavyweight, if Federal started advertising saying they were no longer going to manufacture "heavyweight" loads because the product replacing it was a new "Super Heavyweight" 18g load, which they felt was superior because it had more pellets per ounce and yet at the same time more penetration and killing power, would you buy it? or would you quit shooting Federal and go back to hevishot because you thought it was overkill?


----------



## hawglips (Nov 17, 2010)

MKW said:


> Hal,
> There's no double standard that I can see. I'm not telling you that you should not shoot TSS. I don't care at all what you shoot or at what ranges you shoot it. I fully believe you when you say that you have never shot a turkey at long distances. My point is only that, in my mind, there is no need for anything more than I have now. Why is it not OK that I don't want to shoot TSS??
> 
> Mike



I care not at all what you or anyone else shoots, and I don't believe I've never brought your choice of ammo up before now.   And this time it's only to point out that the pot is calling the kettle black as far as long range ammo is concerned.   

Do you know anything about loading up TSS and manipulating it to do one thing or another?  As far as TSS is concerned, all I've done is correct inaccurate and misleading statement about what it can or can't do, or what kind of shells I have or have not developed with it.  And this has happened multiple times -- yet you (and others) persist with the misinformation about it every time the topic comes up.   I guess folks figure that whoever says something the most is right....


----------



## MKW (Nov 17, 2010)

*...*



Gadget said:


> Let me ask you this Mike.
> 
> Since your already shooting 15g Federal Heavyweight, if Federal started advertising saying they were no longer going to manufacture "heavyweight" loads because the product replacing it was a new "Super Heavyweight" 18g load, which they felt was superior because it had more pellets per ounce and yet at the same time more penetration and killing power, would you buy it? or would you quit shooting Federal and go back to hevishot because you thought it was overkill?



Sure, I would buy it. My hope would be that it would pattern well enough at 40yrds that I could shoot it in a #6. I've been telling y'all that I have no problem with the 18gcc shot, but nobody seems to be getting that part. My only point is that I see no need in going to #9s(of any pellet) to get 6 million hits at 40yrds when 125(or less) will get the job done. 
You didn't really address my post at all. When you get sufficient pattern density, why not get it with the biggest size pellet possible. Seems like that would make more sense, to me. 

Mike


----------



## Huntinfool (Nov 17, 2010)

I think that all of you guys should just send me (an impartial third party) a case of whatever 20ga load you consider to be the "best" in the world.

I'll shoot them at turkeys and let you know which performs the best and we'll have our answer.  Sound good?

I'll post up my address once everybody agrees that this is the best solution.


----------



## hawglips (Nov 17, 2010)

MKW said:


> Sure, I would buy it. My hope would be that it would pattern well enough at 40yrds that I could shoot it in a #6.



#6 in 18g/cc shot????   For turkeys??? 



MKW said:


> My only point is that I see no need in going to #9s(of any pellet) to get 6 million hits at 40yrds when 125(or less) will get the job done.



That would be a good coyote load.


----------



## Hobie (Nov 17, 2010)

Gadget said:


> If that's so then why don't you go find the post and quote it for all to see? I can tell you why, because what your saying is an out right "LIE", I never attacked his family, I merely quoted him for what he told me to my face as I remember it, which I didn't think was anything derogatory in the first place. The disagreement was whether he told me he used to date a girl he pointed out to me at the NWTF national convention or whether he told me that they were just friends, either way, he was pointing her out to me to make a reference about how good looking she was......... so you tell me what part of that was an attack on his family ....
> 
> 
> So go find the post that wasn't deleted and quote it........i'll be waiting.



Gadget
The post is deleted so I can not find it 
Wish I had a webshot of it because of you saying I am lieing
What you did was make a comment about him living off his wife and there was no need to bring his wife into it.Now did you say that or not to prove who is the LIAR

Since you called me a LIAR on the open forum I expect you can apologize on the open forum for calling me one when what I am saying is the 100% truth
Hobie


----------



## Gaswamp (Nov 17, 2010)

I do think that the rules apply to everbody, but there is no doubt in my mind that some folks (in-crowd) have more leeway in rule application than others.   However, this applies to most parts of life, not just the web.


----------



## MKW (Nov 17, 2010)

*...*



hawglips said:


> #6 in 18g/cc shot????   For turkeys???



Yep, for turkeys...imagine that





> That would be a good coyote load.



Are you saying that 125 hits in a 10" circle at 40yrds is not enough for turkeys??

Mike


----------



## Gadget (Nov 17, 2010)

Hobie said:


> Gadget
> The post is deleted so I can not find it
> Wish I had a webshot of it because of you saying I am lieing
> What you did was make a comment about him living off his wife and there was no need to bring his wife into it.Now did you say that or not to prove who is the LIAR
> ...




Hobie in your post you said that there were posts of mine that were not deleted while Mike's were. I asked you to go find them and quote them so everyone can see, then you come back and say that you were wrong, they were deleted. 



Hobie said:


> With that said last year I saw what both wrote and Gadget attacked his  family and that was left up but MKW was deleted IMO if one got deleted  both should of
> Hobie





Hobie said:


> Gadget
> The post is deleted so I can not find it




I said that was a lie, a little bit different than calling you a liar. I have just proved that I was right, what you said was not true, you admit to that.


As far as attacking his family, I figured you would bring that up and try to twist my words some more. I did make a reference to Mike being able to turkey hunt every day of the season because his wife is a docter, a fact that Mike told me himself, No where did I ever make a statement saying that he was living off his wife, my reference was in relation to him being able to turkey hunt every day of the season, if you want to twist that comment into a blanket statement meaning he's living of his wife then so be it...............you said it not I.


----------



## Hobie (Nov 17, 2010)

Gadget said:


> Hobie in your post you said that there were posts of mine that were not deleted while Mike's were. I asked you to go find them and quote them so everyone can see, then you come back and say that you were wrong, they were deleted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That was the post in which you told Mike at Nashville that the guys on here are not much of turkey hunters Correct

At the time Mikes posts were deleted and yours were left up then a few days later then all your post went Poof.Now tell me if I am wrong on that

Just like the other day when you were proven that mzlhunter was not Frank your posts went POOF.I was the one that  pointed out that you were way off base about accusing him of being Frank.You could not handle being wrong so you covered your tracks and deleted your posts.Now many of us just saw those posts.So why did you delete them posts


----------



## Hobie (Nov 17, 2010)

Gadget said:


> So go find the post that wasn't deleted and quote it........i'll be waiting.



This should of gave me the first clue that you knew that these post were deleted by either you or some one you had do it


----------



## Hobie (Nov 17, 2010)

Gadget said:


> As far as attacking his family, I figured you would bring that up and try to twist my words some more. I did make a reference to Mike being able to turkey hunt every day of the season because his wife is a docter, a fact that Mike told me himself, No where did I ever make a statement saying that he was living off his wife, my reference was in relation to him being able to turkey hunt every day of the season, if you want to twist that comment into a blanket statement meaning he's living of his wife then so be it...............you said it not I.



So you do remeber talking to him at Nashville about his wife and a girl but you do not remember saying that the guys on here are not much of turkey hunters

Boy that seems a little odd you remember what Mike said but totally forgot what you said


----------



## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 17, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Once again, you demonstrate that you know not of what you speak.
> 
> Have you made up your mind which argument you're going to stick with?  The TSS is pitiful and weak one, or the TSS is too powerful one?  I can't tell from the above post, as you seem to be saying that the holes are too small, and that the range is too far.  Which is it?  It makes no sense to argue so contradictorily.  Come down on one side or the other, and your posts will appear more sincere to me.
> 
> I must say that it is very strange thing to read posts by folks who can not seem to make up their minds which argument to use to bash TSS and those that load/shoot it.  It's bizarre, for sure.  It seems almost like fragile egos feel like they are getting attacked by me and Gadget and others just becaue we are developing these groundbreaking TSS loads that are heads and shoulders more effective than anything heretofore loaded for turkeys.  You'd think guys would give some props instead attacking someone for building a better mousetrap.



I think my words you quoted pretty much sum up what I was asking.


----------



## Gadget (Nov 17, 2010)

Hobie said:


> That was the post in which you told Mike at Nashville that the guys on here are not much of turkey hunters Correct





So you and Mike are talking back and forth collaborating on this.......... figures. FYI I never made a post telling Mike that, better call Mike back and get your facts straight before you post again


At this point it's very clear to everyone reading these posts what your intentions are, de-bunking more of your claims, so you can go out and grasp at more straws about posts from 2yrs ago is useless.




Hobie said:


> This should of gave me the first clue that you knew that these post were deleted by either you or some one you had do it




 I guess if the admins or mods want to correct you about your assumptions then they can.


----------



## HandgunHTR (Nov 17, 2010)

I will say this one time only.

Answer the question asked by the OP, or move on.  One more post regarding this derailed train will earn the poster an infraction.  

No exceptions.

If you want to argue about TSS or this "measurement of private parts" junk, start a separate thread.


----------



## Gadget (Nov 17, 2010)

hawglips said:


> It's a decision the game department makes based on turkey biology.  Toms can breed many hens, so they are expendable.  Hens raise the poults, and are very vulnerable during nesting, so if the goal is a growing population, protecting hens is a good thing to do.




Hen's eat fine, Hal answered the reason why with the above quote.


----------



## Turkeydoghunter (Nov 18, 2010)

Jason Huckaby said:


> I never hunted turkey so not sure of this answer.
> 
> Why can you only shoot Toms and not hens?   is it hens cant be eat?


i think this is the topic ....hens are allowed in the fall when there is a season .....im going to hook up with some buds in PA this morning taking my pup Curly.....be it hens or gobblers with the right skills they can be cooked to perfection......i kill my birds with remington Nitros   12ga 5 shot i like to call em in to bout 30 yards or closer ...it works for me ....its  my choice which is my right as your choices are yours.....well gotta go hunting wish you could go too!!!


----------

