# Firebow Maple



## RBM (Aug 24, 2014)

I did this video because a lot of folks have trouble with Maple. Maple is difficult because its on the hard side of soft. What I did was some pre-spinning to build up a good dust pile and further dry out the wood before I went for the coal in the video. So it was a lot of spinning both on camera and off and this is typical of what it takes to get a coal with Maple. Slow and steady spinning without getting worn out. Spin to get the dust and dry, rest, and then go for the coal. That is the key. The Maple density needs to be solid, not porous. It is not a wood I would use for friction wood unless that was all I had.


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## elmer_fudd (Aug 25, 2014)

Nice!  I wonder if the difficulty has to do with maple having sweet sap.  That's a good point, though, about building a good pile of dust.  If you have enough dust you don't have to worry about looking for coal extenders.
Now that my bow arm is getting pretty strong , I think I will give maple another try.
One of my next projects is going to be hickory on hickory, just for giggles.  Man, that stuff is hard.. so not very practical for whittling.


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## RBM (Aug 26, 2014)

elmer_fudd said:


> Nice!  I wonder if the difficulty has to do with maple having sweet sap.  That's a good point, though, about building a good pile of dust.  If you have enough dust you don't have to worry about looking for coal extenders.
> Now that my bow arm is getting pretty strong , I think I will give maple another try.
> One of my next projects is going to be hickory on hickory, just for giggles.  Man, that stuff is hard.. so not very practical for whittling.



The difficulty has to do with Maple being on the hard side of soft so it takes a lot longer with more spinning to get a coal. Once the wood begins to decay and goes porous though it has those air pores that hinder friction build up. So solid is better in this particular case with this particular wood. Some harder woods may be just the opposite and better when there is some decay so the wood goes softer. Not so with Maple because it is a softwood, not a hardwood. This is why I am always saying that wood density plays a big role. The sap is not a problem for me as long as the board and spindle are dry.

The reason I build up the dust pile first and dry the board more is to get the board and dust ready before I go for the coal. This makes all the spinning easier and not so tiring by breaking it down into a two step process. I get the board and dust ready (step 1), then rest, and finally go for the coal (step 2).

Good luck and hope this helps.


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## elmer_fudd (Aug 29, 2014)

I was finally successful with maple/maple using your suggestions.. thanks!

I have also successfuly used pine on maple, oak on maple, oak on pine, pine on pine.  Am going to experiment more with pine, as it seems to work well for me.. but I may have just got lucky with the pieces I found.

I read somewhere that ailanthus was a top choice for friction, but was not successful at all using it as a fireboard with any spindle.  Just thought of something.. I only scraped off the outer bark of the fireboard, so maybe I need to remove the cambium and drill into the heart wood.


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## RBM (Aug 29, 2014)

elmer_fudd said:


> I was finally successful with maple/maple using your suggestions.. thanks!
> 
> I have also successfuly used pine on maple, oak on maple, oak on pine, pine on pine.  Am going to experiment more with pine, as it seems to work well for me.. but I may have just got lucky with the pieces I found.
> 
> I read somewhere that ailanthus was a top choice for friction, but was not successful at all using it as a fireboard with any spindle.  Just thought of something.. I only scraped off the outer bark of the fireboard, so maybe I need to remove the cambium and drill into the heart wood.



 Yeay. Glad you got it.

Pine is tricky. It also needs to be like Maple. Sap free, dry or seasoned, and solid. I run into problems if I don't have those three. Fortunately it is softer than Maple. I like using Pine. There is always plenty around to use but it takes some searching to get the right wood from it. Even when I think I have the right wood it sometimes still gives me trouble. I use Pine on Pine and Dogfennel on Pine mostly. Oak on Pine may be doable as does Maple on Pine. Willow on Pine also may be doable. Try Horseweed on Pine. Lots of combos to try.


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## elmer_fudd (Aug 30, 2014)

Thanks.  I tried a green pine spindle.. trying to push the envelope.. of course it glossed over from pitch.  I guess green pine would make a good bearing block.
Anyway, will try those others.  Would also like to try boxelder.


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## RBM (Aug 31, 2014)

elmer_fudd said:


> Thanks.  I tried a green pine spindle.. trying to push the envelope.. of course it glossed over from pitch.  I guess green pine would make a good bearing block.
> Anyway, will try those others.  Would also like to try boxelder.



Yeah, sap free Pine. Not sure if you have Dogfennel in Winder or not but there should be some in the counties around you according to the USDA. Use dead and dry stalks.

Old Seminole Indian trick. Green Dogfennel works good for insect repellent also so don't overlook that. You don't have to kill the plant. Just pull off some stringy leaves and smear it on. Lasts about an hour or so. Try a small amount first to make sure you are not allergic to it. Suppose to be good for piles too but I think I will pass on that one.

http://plants.usda.gov/core/profile?symbol=EUCA5

I mention or use Dogfennel in two of my videos. FirebowDogfennelBayWood where I used it for a spindle on Bay wood and FloridaForaging4Part2 where I talked about it as insect repellent.


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## elmer_fudd (Aug 31, 2014)

Never paid any mind to dogfennel, but will now.  Not sure if its around here. 

I had heard that mullein stalk made good spindle, but seems too pithy and flimsy.  Maybe i found it wrong time of year.

BTW, i successfully applied your technique under damp conditions.  Got an ember with oak on willow.    It finally rained here, and some of my other spindles were too soggy.  Been waiting for a chance to try that.

Todd


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## RBM (Aug 31, 2014)

elmer_fudd said:


> Never paid any mind to dogfennel, but will now.  Not sure if its around here.
> 
> I had heard that mullein stalk made good spindle, but seems too pithy and flimsy.  Maybe i found it wrong time of year.
> 
> ...



Cool. Glad it works for you. As humid as it is here I pretty much have to do things that way. Slow and steady and sometimes with the two step process. It has the benefit of drying the wood out and conserving energy.


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## 7 point (Sep 1, 2014)

elmer_fudd said:


> Never paid any mind to dogfennel, but will now.  Not sure if its around here.
> 
> I had heard that mullein stalk made good spindle, but seems too pithy and flimsy.  Maybe i found it wrong time of year.
> 
> ...



I have good luck many a time with dog fennel on mertle bush. Robert you ever go to the Silver river knap in and primitive skills gathering ?


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## RBM (Sep 1, 2014)

7 point said:


> Robert you ever go to the Silver river knap in and primitive skills gathering ?



Nope. Ocala is way too far north for me.


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## 7 point (Sep 4, 2014)

RBM said:


> Nope. Ocala is way too far north for me.



I haven't been ether but I would like to get over there some time.


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## chehawknapper (Sep 4, 2014)

Yucca flower stalks are in perfect condition right now in SW Ga. Horse weed can be gathered now but I usually wait until a little later. Mullein needs more maturing. Baccharis can be cut and dried anytime. Cedar, poplar, cottonwood, box elder all can be collected if dead or cut green and dried.


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## RBM (Sep 4, 2014)

chehawknapper said:


> Yucca flower stalks are in perfect condition right now in SW Ga. Horse weed can be gathered now but I usually wait until a little later. Mullein needs more maturing. Baccharis can be cut and dried anytime. Cedar, poplar, cottonwood, box elder all can be collected if dead or cut green and dried.



Hey Ben. Yep, Yucca here is good to go too right now. But Horseweed is still green right now. There isn't any Mullein, Poplar, Cottonwood, and very little Cedar. I am not familiar with Box Elder. But I never had any luck with Baccharis and I have tried it many times. I have heard it called False Willow and out west Seep Willow. I call it Stink Bush because the smoke stinks like a sewer to me. lol Maybe you have some insight as to how to get a coal with Baccharis? Thanks.


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## chehawknapper (Sep 4, 2014)

There are several different species of baccharis. I have used them east and west and have not been able to tell much difference. Though it is not as fast as some, I have become very fond of it with a yucca baseboard for hand drill. The wood dust generated is very fine, and yes it stinks a little but holds the ember forever. I have not tried it with bow drill but it should work fine as it has enough lateral strength for arrows as well.


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## RBM (Sep 4, 2014)

chehawknapper said:


> There are several different species of baccharis. I have used them east and west and have not been able to tell much difference. Though it is not as fast as some, I have become very fond of it with a yucca baseboard for hand drill. The wood dust generated is very fine, and yes it stinks a little but holds the ember forever. I have not tried it with bow drill but it should work fine as it has enough lateral strength for arrows as well.



Ah, as a spindle on Yucca. I have used Baccharis on itself and with other wood types also and no luck. I have not applied it to Yucca....yet. Yes if it works for the hand drill then it should work for the firebow also. Thanks.

The reason I am not familiar with such woods as Mullein, Poplar, Cottonwood, and Box Elder is because we don't have those this far south. There may be some of those in the northern part of FL in the northern peninsula and the panhandle though. I need to get back up to Georgia sometime.


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## elmer_fudd (Sep 5, 2014)

I forgot there is an eastern species of cottonwood, will have to look for some.
My focus is proficiency with woods found in the southern appalachians, as this is where I am most likely to be in a remote area by myself in a survival situation.
Poplar would be a top choice for sure, although I have had trouble with it in damp conditions.
Anyone tried birch?  I have seen several varieties in the mountains.  At the higher altitudes I have found plentiful silver birch, with horse hoof fungus on the dead trees.  This fungus can even be used as your fireboard.
Also, various conifers are available there (hemlock, spruce, white pine).  

Lots of stuff to try...


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## chehawknapper (Sep 5, 2014)

In your area I would be looking for basswood and box elder. Both are excellent choices for bow drill.


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## elmer_fudd (Sep 5, 2014)

chehawknapper said:


> In your area I would be looking for basswood and box elder. Both are excellent choices for bow drill.



I will do that.  Basswood is supposed to be good for a lot of stuff (cordage, etc).  Thanks for the tip!


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## RBM (Sep 7, 2014)

Well today was not a good day to try Baccharis on Yucca. 100% humidity and rain around. The materials were not wet from rain but no doubt damp from humidity. I need very dry conditions and/or very dry materials for this combo. Yucca is too soft to dry out the board by spinning in place like I would normally do. I spun four burn holes and no joy. But I only tried this combo and it was not a good combo for the conditions today. So I go from primitive to traditional. If the firebow won't work, the flint and steel will.


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## RBM (Sep 18, 2014)

Well I tried again with Baccharis on solid Yucca today and got a coal and fire. I think the difference was that the wood was dry enough this time around even though humidity was still up. I haven't had dry enough weather for a while now. But this is not a "found on the spot" combo I would use in wet or damp weather but "drier" weather it works. Kind of reinforces the idea to gather dry materials "before" wet weather sets in. I did not do a video as I really did not expect a coal.


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## elmer_fudd (Sep 29, 2014)

I tried oak on maple, and it was almost as easy as a bic lighter.

My technique seems to really be improving.. I am recognizing how important a good notch is, as well as a straight spindle.  Am able to reliably get coals with a variety of combinations.  As you indicated, the harder woods seem to do better in damp conditions.

Have you ever tried heat treating your spindle and/or hearthboard?  I was wondering if this would help or hurt, since heat is supposed to harden wood.  I would guess it depends.. I will have to experiment.


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## Flaustin1 (Sep 29, 2014)

I want to try starting a fire with a bow drill.  What two woods should I try first and what characteristics should said would have?  Thanks ahead of time.


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## chehawknapper (Sep 29, 2014)

Inyour neck of the woods Flaustin, you should have basswood, box elder, red cedar. They all will work just fine.


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## Flaustin1 (Sep 29, 2014)

Yep, gottem all in my yard.  Thanks.


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## Flaustin1 (Sep 29, 2014)

Whoops, no box elder.


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## RBM (Sep 29, 2014)

elmer_fudd said:


> I tried oak on maple, and it was almost as easy as a bic lighter.
> 
> My technique seems to really be improving.. I am recognizing how important a good notch is, as well as a straight spindle.  Am able to reliably get coals with a variety of combinations.  As you indicated, the harder woods seem to do better in damp conditions.
> 
> Have you ever tried heat treating your spindle and/or hearthboard?  I was wondering if this would help or hurt, since heat is supposed to harden wood.  I would guess it depends.. I will have to experiment.



I don't heat treat by fire hardening or heating the wood with fire. But I do heat treat by spinning before going for the coal. The spindle and board need to be thick enough and hard enough for that though. The wood will harden just by frictional heat and get moisture out of the set.

I am working on a Cypress video right now. I have gotten Cypress to work in the past but as you might imagine, sap is the biggest problem. I broke off a limb on a live tree in the dead of Winter when the sap had gone out of the wood. Got one coal but no more after that with it. I now have some Cypress wood that is seasoned from a small standing dead tree. Not easy to find. So I will see if this will work or not for the video.

A tough combo can be Cabbage or Sabal Palm. Sometimes I get it and sometimes I don't. The palm stem wood is very soft. Softer than Yucca stalk even. I talk about board thickness and need to get moisture out of the set in this video but heating up and hardening the set helps for sure. I failed a lot before I got the coal in the video even doing everything right. I think the softness of it is why it is so difficult.



Other things I do to dry wood besides pre-spinning or force drying is set it out in the direct sunlight and wind to dry. I have even put a board and spindle up against my belly to dry it. I dry damp tinder the same way.


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## chehawknapper (Sep 30, 2014)

Robert, good rule of thumb is that the softer the wood is, you need more speed; the harder the wood - more downward pressure. Too much downward pressure on softer woods and you will drill a hole all the way through before getting your ember.


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## RBM (Sep 30, 2014)

chehawknapper said:


> Robert, good rule of thumb is that the softer the wood is, you need more speed; the harder the wood - more downward pressure. Too much downward pressure on softer woods and you will drill a hole all the way through before getting your ember.



Thanks, Ben. Yeah I know the rule and if I have a dry set that's okay but ..... Florida tends to be a lot more wet, damp, and humid than most other places in the US. So speed doesn't always help for soft wood if the humidity is high and the wood is under constant air moisture. That is the air is just heavy with moisture that gets into everything and there is no getting away from damp humidity when the weather is humid. Even trying to dry out a set using those drying methods above may not do the trick in high humidity. That is why I said earlier that the Baccharis Yucca combo was not so good in damp or humid weather. It worked fine though when conditions dried out a bit. Humidity and wood dampness does make a difference in the level of difficulty.

For the Cabbage Palm video above I don't recall if it was humid or not that Winter. It can be humid even in Winter here but usually not. Winter is usually dry but we do get wet or humid Winters from time to time. If it wasn't humid when I did the video then I should have spun faster with Cabbage Palm for sure. Ah, I listed it as dry conditions so you are right, I should be spinning fast.


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## elmer_fudd (Oct 1, 2014)

In your Cabbage/Sabal Palm video I noticed that your spindle was somewhat flattened (not completely round).  Was this intentional, and does this improve your chance of success?


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## RBM (Oct 1, 2014)

elmer_fudd said:


> In your Cabbage/Sabal Palm video I noticed that your spindle was somewhat flattened (not completely round).  Was this intentional, and does this improve your chance of success?



It is difficult to shape a Cabbage Palm stem to round but I don't make it completely round on purpose. Intentional yes. Less than round actually provides better gripping of the spindle by the cord and with a such a soft "wood" (I don't really like to call the stem a wood) a cord can wear a very soft spindle down very fast. I will sometimes cut facets or not round (flat) sides in the middle of a spindle to provide better cord grip on purpose using the tension method. With the Egyptian method and a Clove Hitch knot, the facets are not necessary because there is no cord rub on the spindle. But the working end is shaped to round as best I can. About the first two to three inches.

Cabbage Palm stem is an odd kind of material. Its not really wood at all. It is a very soft fiberous pithy material that has a thin hard exterior of skin. Palm and Palmetto and such is after all related to and essentially a big version of grass. So when you hit that very soft material inside the skin, it does not shape very well and its real easy to accidentally cut off more than needed. If you have ever cut and used an old dead Cattail stalk and hit the soft center of the hard exterior, it is a lot like Cabbage and Palmetto stem. So by leaving it a bit flat I leave some harder skin on (to keep the cord from cutting into the spindle) and the cord grips the spindle better.


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