# Ultimate sin



## dbodkin (Sep 22, 2004)

Reading the post about who will or will not go to Hades... Reading this I see mention of mass murder's Bundy & Dhamer who supposedly accepted Jesus Christ as their personal savior. Which by this thread gets them a free pass into Heaven ..... I have a real hard time with this .. Why is it that every two bit punk, rapist, murderer finds Jesus in jail? I say scam I just dont believe them! :   My question is .. Is there any sin that is totally unforgiveable?  Meaning commit this sin you do not pass go you dont collect $200 you go straight to Hades..


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## Jeff Phillips (Sep 22, 2004)

The only 1 mentioned in the Bible is blasphmy of the Holy Spirit.


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## Vectorman (Sep 23, 2004)

As much as we sometimes want certain people to spend eternity in the smoking section, we have to understand that to God, sin is sin. The murderer is no more a sinner than the guy who cheats on his taxes. Any and all sin will seperate us from God.

Take a look in the Bible. David, who the Bible says was a man after God's own heart, committed adultry and then murder to cover it up. Paul approved of and helped murder Stephen. Then went from town to town to persecute the Church before Jesus met him on the road and he became the writer of most of the new testament. 

We should celebrate when anyone accepts Christ, even those who have committed the worst crimes because we will all be standing in the same line when we get to Heaven. We will all be sinners saved by grace.  

C Ya,

Vectorman


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## HT2 (Sep 23, 2004)

Just as Mr. Phillips stated.........


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## dbodkin (Sep 23, 2004)

Sorry guys.. I'm not going to celebrate some scum accepting Christ into his life..  I have no room for forgiveness. This whole thing of beheadings is really tearing me up. I just can not  believe this trash would be admitted to heaven...  What is being said is I can live a diabolical life on earth and in the last moment accept Christ .. all is forgiven and I avoid burning in Hades....


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 23, 2004)

The acceptance of Christ is not fire insurance.  I personally believe that if someone accepts Christ just to avoid eternal death has not really accepted Christ.  Also let me point out that Scripture says that there is no mercy for those who have no mercy, forgiveness is an act of mercy.

There is also something called imprecatory prayer, this is where you ask God to vanquish your enimies.  David often prayed to God for victory over the enimies of Israel.  This is a holy war that is being fought, make no mistake about it.  This war will continue as long as they (the Islamic extremists) believe as they do.  If they ever come to know Christ, the war is over.

I pray for God to be victorious.


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## Keith48 (Sep 23, 2004)

Do not be deceived, God is not mocked. The Bible addresses in several places about knowing the truth, yet living in sin knowing that doen the road you can make a conversion. If the guy was truly repentant, then he will be received into heaven. David was a good example mentioned. The story of the prodigal son is another. We don't get into heaven based on our own ability and goodness, but on the sacrafice made by Jesus and our acceptance of that.

Will the guys beheading folks get into heaven? Nope. Not unless they repent and acknowledge that Jesus is Lord. They are so sold out on their false religion and god that that scenario is unlikely.

But if someone makes a true deathbed conversion, that is great! I don't want anyone to go to ****. But God is not mocked. You can say you have been converted at the last minute, but God is the judge of whether it was true repentance or just remorse.


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## Mechanicaldawg (Sep 23, 2004)

DB! We have enough to stress out about without worrying about whether or not our fellow man's heart is true!

God will be their judge and He will not be fooled!

If their sin has not been covered by the blood of Christ, God will know in the twinkling of an eye!

Let your heart not be troubled. Justice will come for all!


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## Randy (Sep 23, 2004)

I think David and Keith are right.  Just because a person says they accept Christ does not mean they did.  Christ knows their heart and this is between them and Christ.  Fortunately he will forgive you if you mean it and it is from your heart.  But many have fooled others as well as themselves in to thinking they are going one way when they may go the other.  This is where "they" say faith comes in.

On the subject.  I have always been told that Suicide is the only unforgivable sin.  You can not ask for forgiveness after you are dead!  And you can not ask for forgivness for a sin you are about to knowingly commit!


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## Handgunner (Sep 23, 2004)

> I have always been told that Suicide is the only unforgivable sin. You can not ask for forgiveness after you are dead! And you can not ask for forgivness for a sin you are about to knowingly commit!



Randy, I've heard that also, but let me ask you this...

The wife and I were watching the 9/11 documentary on A&E the other night.  When the buildings were burning, people were jumping to their death.

That's suicide... No matter how you look at it, that's what it is.  I understand why they did it, but it's still suicide.  They jumped because as they seen it "life was ending either way".  Best jump and TRY to live, than stay and be burned alive.  But honestly, who's gonna survive a 90 story jump???

Would Heaven accept that, but not a person who's just lost his wife and kids in car accident?  Or a person that's just been paralyzed for the rest of his life, from the chest down, and 1/2 brain dead?

I'm not shooting down what you've said, just asking questions that came to my mind while seeing the jumpers and thinking the same thing you said.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 23, 2004)

I am undecided on the suicide issue.   Mainly for this reason:

Let's say that I'm actually 'saved" and that I'm living it day by day.  I'm driving home one day and a yankee is in the left lane driving slow or synchronized with the right lane folks!          I make the comment "Go back up north you stupid yankee!!!!" and seconds later they slam on breaks so that they can look at an alligator swimming and I swerve to miss them and get killed.   )    I don't believe that since I didn't have time to ask forgiveness for my remarks to the yankee that I'll go to hades.

Just my personal opinion....   (No offense to my northern brothers...just havin' fun)

Bandy


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## Randy (Sep 23, 2004)

Delton,
My opinion is those who jumped were not suicidal.  They knew they would die if they stayed where they were.  They took a chnce on the jump.  Maybe god safely lands them or maybe he takes them?

Bander,
I am not sure it is a sin to call a yankee stupid?  But that is something to think about.  You should always watch what you say and think because it could be your last thought and you would not be forgiven.  My grandmother use to tell me that!  It is like always kissing your wife goodbye and telling her you love her before you leave the house.  Just in case it is the last time!


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## braintree (Sep 23, 2004)

The Lord died on the Cross for all of our sins, and I believe if you are The Lord's child then you will go to the promise land regardless of the sins you commit.


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## mpowell (Sep 23, 2004)

only God knows what's in one's heart so what we think, whether some are duped or not, really doesn't matter.  they can't pull one over on Him!!!


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 23, 2004)

I'm glad that the Lord gets to sort this mess out!   LOL    I'd have it in an aweful mess!

Bandy


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## GeauxLSU (Sep 23, 2004)

The concept of 'degrees of sin' is likely a human issue and probably a dangerous path, but I will also admit, it is inconceivable to me that Jesus' sorry is not a little deeper at certain sins...   
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Todd E (Sep 23, 2004)

I encourage everyone to read scripture and allow The Holy Spirit to reveal God's Truth's to you. Never take a man's word to heart w/o backing it up and researching it. There is much discussion about what can and can't be forgiven. In scripture, blasphemy of The Holy Spirit is the only mentioned. In our weaknessess, we cannot fathom how God can forgive a murderer or a molestor. Guys, I know you don't want to hear it........but God can and will forgive them if they are TRUE in their repentance. Sin is sin. I make no light statement about that!!!     May I make a point.............................

God tells me that there shall be no gods before Him. In my relationship with God, if I place deer hunting before Him, it becomes a god to me and I am sinning against Him. If I stay off deer hunting every Sunday during season pursuing my self made god, I'm sinning against Him. My doing so would be just the same as what a murderer does and what a molestor does. The problem lies in the fact that a human doesn't perceive what they are doing as being "as bad" , but according to scripture............IT IS!!!!!

Here's a read on suicide.......................
Read the whole thing. Don't get hung up on the first part.....read on.

  Can one who commits suicide be saved?
Suicide is a grave sin equivalent to murder (Exodus 20:13; 21:23), but it can be forgiven like any other sin. And Scripture says clearly that those redeemed by God have been forgiven for all their sins--past, present, and future (Colossians 2:13-14). Paul says in Romans 8:38-39 that nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. 
So if a true Christian would commit suicide in a time of extreme weakness, he or she would be received into heaven (Jude 24). But we question the faith of those who take their lives or even consider it seriously--it may well be that they have never been truly saved. 

I say that because God's children are defined repeatedly in Scripture as those who have hope (Acts 24:15; Romans 5:2-5, 8:24; 2 Corinthians 1:10, etc.) and purpose in life (Luke 9:23-25; Romans 8:28; Colossians 1:29). And those who think of committing suicide do so because they have neither hope nor purpose in their lives. Furthermore, one who repeatedly considers suicide is practicing sin in his heart (Proverbs 23:7), and 1 John 3:9 says that "no one who is born of God practices sin." And finally, suicide is often the ultimate evidence of a heart that rejects the lordship of Jesus Christ, because it is an act where the sinner is taking his life into his own hands completely rather than submitting to God's will for it. Surely many of those who have taken their lives will hear those horrifying words from the Lord Jesus at the judgment--"I never knew you; Depart from me, you who practice lawlessness" (Matthew 7:23).

So though it may be possible for a true believer to commit suicide, we believe that is an unusual occurrence. Someone considering suicide should be challenged above all to examine himself to see whether he is in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5).


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## Throwback (Sep 23, 2004)

The Apostle Paul tortured and likely killed christians and look at what he did after he was saved!

If they TRULY repented and asked Jesus into their heart, yes they were saved. Only God knows this. 

If He can save Paul He can save anybody.


T


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## CAL (Sep 24, 2004)

How can a person contemplating suicide examine himself.I think very few people who kill themselves are all there anyway.I think they are sick in more ways than one.I don't think we are talking about rational people at all.Don't you think God would take into consideration a persons mental state.
I am sure there are members here that have experienced deep depression.I have and feel I am not alone either.For those of you who have never had depression,I hope you never do.Depression is terrible,maybe even worst than that.The scariest part is you never know when it will return.There is no warning.You have no signs of the sickness.Drs.call it a chemical imbalance in the brain.It is a true feeling of being out of control with ones self!Sorry for the rambling,I have told lots of people that cemetery's everywhere are full of people who took their own lives for what seemed no reason.They were so depressed they couldn't come to any other solution!This was their only way out,the only hope they saw available was suicide.
You know we all might be doing too much judging.Gods word says"judge not least you be judged by the same measure".


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## Randy (Sep 24, 2004)

CAl,
For one I am not juding.  Just giving my opinion on the question!  Second, if a person is in a deep depression and feels that he has lost everything or has nothing to live for already "lost his/her faith in God?"  I guess to me that is relly what it comes down to.  Are those that commit suicide really saved?  If you are truly saved and have faith in God, He will not let you even get that far!  At least that is my opinion.  I think those that commit suicide has the devil wispering in their ear!


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 24, 2004)

I Corinthians 5 says that we are to judge other christians in the church...(those within)     Does anyone disagree?

Bandy


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 24, 2004)

I was talking to my wife one day, after reading about a father accidentally killing his son in the woods, and I told her that it would be very very very hard for me to walk out of the woods if I had done that.    Can you imagine the pain that that would bring on you?  

I was watching "The Patriot' the other day and when the one guy came back to his home and found his wife and son dead.....(not saying that I would definitely kill myself) but I could see how death would seem like a much better existance than living with that pain.

Bandy


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## HuntinTom (Sep 24, 2004)

As Jesus looked out from the pain of the cross, I'm glad He doesn't say, "Father, smite those who've wronged you..." - But, instead, "Father, forgive them..." -- I'm glad, even when I'm not able, that God's grace and forgiveness are not contingent on my limited earthly understanding of higher, celestial things...  Thank you Lord, for your Amazing and Abundant grace for us sinners...


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## Randy (Sep 24, 2004)

So Brother Tommy,
Can you help us with the answer to the question?  Is there an unforgivable sin?  I had been waiting on your post but I could not deduce from your post your belief!


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 24, 2004)

What is meant by ultimate?  If it is "unforgiveable", then the Bible is quite clear that there is only one unforgiveable sin.  I believe this was mentioned before, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit.


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## HuntinTom (Sep 24, 2004)

> Can you help us with the answer to the question?


  As others have said, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the only unforgivable sin sited in scripture - That is, intentionally disregarding the work of the Spirit in one's life - The Spirit is at work to prompt us to be aware of our sin and it's affects on our life, to help us repent (turn away from...) and to seek the forgiveness offered through the Resurrected Christ - And then to empower us to live the life God has created and designed us to live.  I think we often make the Spirit led life much more difficult than it really is through our dogmas and hang-ups, interpretations of the Scriptures, and often, simply not using the common sense God gives us to discern...  To me it's profoundly simple - God loves you so much He allowed His Son to die that you might have life (both eternal and abundant).  He left His Spirit to convict and correct in order that we could turn away from the effects of sin, and turn toward His open, loving, forgiving arms, and back into the fold to which we belong - His Spirit continues to journey with us as we walk together on this road we call life seeking to be everything He has created us to be in every area of our lives - Home, school, work-place, places of recreation - In our very world -- Picking up sojourners all along the way who are lost and looking for direction, who are blind and need to see...


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## Randy (Sep 24, 2004)

Thanks Tom.  Wiht your help and looking back at my earlier posts, I think I see the answer to my question as to suicide being another unforgivable sin.  I guess technically you have "disregarded the work of the Spirit in your life when "you" decide to commit suicide.  Kind of fits together HUH?


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## HuntinTom (Sep 24, 2004)

*Except...*

I think, along with some of the other's rational', that suicide is not always a conscious act of the will -- I've interviewed people who have attempted suicide and I would say 100% of these people just felt such a desperation in their situation that they thought this was a viable option to their darkness and pain...  I think God is MUCH, MUCH more forgiving in our lives than we often allow or accept - Especially when it comes to accepting it in other people's lives...


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## Beagler (Sep 24, 2004)

I agree with Mr. Phillips....IN  our eyes we  label sins.. But in Gods eye a sin is  sin...The Mass murders can go to heaven if they accept Christ into there heart.. Look at the theif on the cross...


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## HuntinTom (Sep 24, 2004)

> But in Gods eye a sin is sin...


 Well said... Even though some of our sin has a much more adverse affect (Such as the results of murder are more severe in all who are affected than is the sin of hatred...), all sin is  grievous to God and contradicts His will and way for our lives... I think we have a tendency to "rate" our sin from 1 - 10, but the problem with that is that I can always find somebody worse than me and can easily justify my sin in comparison to their's leaving me seeming small on the sin-scale -- But, as has been said, a sin is a sin is a sin -- And all sin separates us from the glory of God...  I'm so thankful for his mercy, for without that, all of us would be in an unpardonable state...


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## ramblinrack (Sep 24, 2004)

i've read with great hope and optimism all the relies in this thread, particularly yours tom. as most of yall know, my best friend killed himself three yrs ago and not a day goes by that i don't worry about him and hope that despite his "sin", that hopefully he will find the peace in the afterlife that he never could on this earth. he was a good man with a big heart and somehow, i will always maintain hope that things turn out alright for my old friend. rest in peace mike...i sure wish you were here......


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## JBowers (Sep 24, 2004)

I believe that all will pay for their sins, some eternally and some not.  My opinion is that we all have sinned and we all we pay for those sins, saved or not.  For those that are saved, we will pay but not eternally (i.e. we will experience some sort of "****").  For those unsaved, they will pay eternally in "****."

I also believe that we are narrowly focused on what constitutes sins against God by too often failing to recognize that our failure to be good stewards of God's gifts are also sins against God, or in a sense Blasphemy.  God is the creator of all things, great and small.  God's creation are good.  God created Man to be the steward of his Creation and when Man fails to be the good steward he sins directly against God.

Also, some of this concerns me:



> There is also something called imprecatory prayer, this is where you ask God to vanquish your enimies.  David often prayed to God for victory over the enimies of Israel.  This is a holy war that is being fought, make no mistake about it.  This war will continue as long as they (the Islamic extremists) believe as they do.  If they ever come to know Christ, the war is over.



It seems as though this is presented as a one-way street (i.e. Islam's fault), and yet implied that we (USA) are doing God's will.  However, if we is presented/implied as both sides, OK I agree with that.  Although, if it is we as in USA then "This war will continue as long as they (Christian extremists) believe as they do."  I don't believe God chooses sides.  I don't believe Islam's almighty and Christianity's almighty are separate.  Albeit, somewhat different interpretations of the same, but One Almighty.  I may be wrong and I am not good at expressing my beliefs in this arena and I am definitely not synchronized with the Norm, but what I believe is what I believe and it is based on the fundamental Faith.

Now as for, "If they ever come to know Christ, the war is over."  If "they" is all sides and the implication is to truly know Christ, the I agree.  Otherwise, I don't. I also believe this where humankind is fundamentally flawed and has been for thousands of years and History seems to support that.

Well, enough of my misguided ramblings.


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## HuntinTom (Sep 24, 2004)

*Rack...*

check your pm's...


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## Throwback (Sep 24, 2004)

> I don't believe Islam's almighty and Christianity's almighty are separate.



They are not the same. 


T


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 24, 2004)

JB,

I can only tell you what is in the Bible, I do not apologize nor am I ashamed of it.  The term imprecatory prayer itself is not in the Bible, it is a term applied to actual events.  As I previously stated, there are many examples of it in Scripture, especially in Psalms.



> Albeit, somewhat different interpretations of the same, but One Almighty.


  There is only One God Almighty, but the god spoken of in the Koran (Islam) is diametrically opposed to God spoken of in the Bible.  Please make no mistake about this.  I respect your God given right to believe as you wish and I am not trying to start an argument with you.  

Good Night and God Bless


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## JBowers (Sep 25, 2004)

David Mills said:
			
		

> JB,
> 
> I can only tell you what is in the Bible, I do not apologize nor am I ashamed of it.  The term imprecatory prayer itself is not in the Bible, it is a term applied to actual events.  As I previously stated, there are many examples of it in Scripture, especially in Psalms.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your response.  But we'll just have to agree to disagree because you can only tell me what you think the Bible says and Christianity and Islam are much more similar than most Christians would even fathom to admit.  We shold never equate the religion of Islam with that of Terrorism as we should never equate Chritianity with that of the KKK.

Good night and Thank you.


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## Throwback (Sep 25, 2004)

From Koran:

[5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

ALSO---And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!

ANOTHER---Of those who are Jews (there are those who) alter words from their places and say: We have heard and we disobey and: Hear, may you not be made to hear! and: Raina, distorting (the word) with their tongues and taunting about religion; and if they had said (instead): We have heard and we obey, and hearken, and unzurna it would have been better for them and more upright; but Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief, so they do not believe but a little.

(in the Bible God calls the Jews the apple of his eye and blesses them while "allah" cruses them).

ANOTHER---And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; *and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah;* these are the words of their mouths; *they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!*

So believeing Jesus is the son of God is disbelieving in allah because he is not (obviously) the son of Allah. 

If he's not the son of allah, allah and God CANNOT be the same.


T


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 26, 2004)

> because you can only tell me what you think the Bible says



No, I can tell you what the Bible says, what I think is irrelevant.


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## hpurvis (Sep 27, 2004)

I've watched this post with interest. I wanted to see some responses before I made mine.

Question: If God does not forgive the vilest sinner, how do I know he has forgiven me? 

I believe when a person repents and turns to God and ask for forgiveness and salvalation, he gets it.

Now would I do it that way? NO, but I am not GOD.

I am glad he is a just GOD.

As far as what will keep you out of heaven, I believe only one thing. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit, which I believe to be a rejection of God's only begotten Son, The Lord Jesus Christ.


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