# native religion



## aniwayah (May 13, 2010)

Does anyone here study or practice any form of native american religion? We talked about it some at work today and it got me to wondering.


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## earl (May 13, 2010)

Don't have any specifics. Care to share? There are a few of us openminded enough not to blast you out of the water. Then there are a few that will have you on the highway to He!! as soon as you post something other than Christianity. So pull up your boots and wade right in. Welcome to the SDDS forum.


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## Six million dollar ham (May 13, 2010)

No.


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## ronpasley (May 13, 2010)

No don't or have heard anything about  native american religion around my neck of woods


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## crackerdave (May 13, 2010)

They have as much right to worship as they see fit as I do.


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## mockingbird (May 14, 2010)

I do. I believe God is in everything He created. Me, you, mud turtles, the grass. The wind.


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## earl (May 14, 2010)

Cherokee or Creek  by chance ?


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## thedeacon (May 14, 2010)

Nope, nothing but Christianity


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## Lowjack (May 14, 2010)

My Tribe worships the Great Iam.


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## Jeff Phillips (May 14, 2010)

I am a Christian and do not practice Native American religion, but have spent some time studying it.

I am currently reading The People of ......... series by Michael and Kathleen Gear. I am only 5 books into the series and still in the Paleolithic period. I believe there are over 30 books in the series, all start with The People of the ..., followed by Wolf, River, Sky, Fire, etc.

The Gear's are both archaeologist who have specialized in Native American studies.

The books contain a lot of info on dreams, First Man, the One, etc and spend a lot of time on the belief system.


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## Randy (May 14, 2010)

I believe you are born knowing there is a god.  Now it is our job given to us by God to tell those who do not know exactly who it is who He is.  Since Jesus died and we are all given His rightousness, until you hear about Him and know who He is you can not reject Him and as such cannot be judged for it.  But once you have heard the Word you are respnsible.


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## earl (May 14, 2010)

aniwayah and Mockingbird,
I ,for one would like to hear about your beliefs. Sometimes you have to ignore folks .


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## aniwayah (May 14, 2010)

Cherokee and sorry I did not mean to offend anyone.


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## crackerdave (May 14, 2010)

I would sure like to hear from my brother Mike [Balvarik] on this topic. He is a Native American,a warrior,and a good man.


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## Ronnie T (May 14, 2010)

I would love to hear about native American beliefs in God.
It appears to me that even though they had not been taught, or had not accepted the Jew's God, they certainly knew and realized that there was some spiritual, Devine being that they needed to pay tribute too and worship.
They certainly prayed.


.


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## Forced Entry (May 14, 2010)

I wanna know about the cherokee beliefs also......Did they not worship numerous gods like the ancient egyptians?


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## Thor827 (May 14, 2010)

I don't practice a Native American religion, but I do practice an ancestral European religion. I've found that some similarities exist between them.


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## aniwayah (May 15, 2010)

I believe in one great Creator and that all things where made equal in his eyes. The hawk is my brother as much as you all are. We do not own the land we belong to her as she is our mother. You know ashes to ashes and dust to dust. I thank the Creator for all things and try to live a simple life. Most folks go to a church to worship and I worship in the natural world because I can see Creator in all things. This is of course just a summery.Alot of people think I worship more  than one God but this is not the case. They say that we have earth gods and wind gods and the like but this is not the case. I believe in one Creator or father. But as we came from the earth and the father created the earth to be my mother. He also created the wind so the wind and for that matter all things are my brothers and sisters. I am no better or worse than these I have named. Life forms a circle and I am apart of all of this not the owner. We only take what we need to live, try to be respectful of all creation and love our family and friends with a passion few could understand. I did not come here looking for a fight just hoping to make some like minded friends.


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## Ronnie T (May 15, 2010)

Sounds like a great appreciation of God and His creation.


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## Mako22 (May 15, 2010)

I'll spend my time learning more about the creator of the universe Jesus Christ.


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## aniwayah (May 15, 2010)

I did not come here looking to start trouble nor a war. I am sorry I posted here and will be leaving the forum now. Thanks


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## dawg2 (May 15, 2010)

aniwayah said:


> I did not come here looking to start trouble nor a war. I am sorry I posted here and will be leaving the forum now. Thanks



Actually, you don't need to leave.  I would rather you stay and discuss your religion.  I would like to hear more.


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 15, 2010)

aniwayah said:


> I believe in one great Creator and that all things where made equal in his eyes. The hawk is my brother as much as you all are. We do not own the land we belong to her as she is our mother. You know ashes to ashes and dust to dust. I thank the Creator for all things and try to live a simple life. Most folks go to a church to worship and I worship in the natural world because I can see Creator in all things. This is of course just a summery.Alot of people think I worship more than one God but this is not the case. They say that we have earth gods and wind gods and the like but this is not the case. I believe in one Creator or father. But as we came from the earth and the father created the earth to be my mother. He also created the wind so the wind and for that matter all things are my brothers and sisters. I am no better or worse than these I have named. Life forms a circle and I am apart of all of this not the owner. We only take what we need to live, try to be respectful of all creation and love our family and friends with a passion few could understand. I did not come here looking for a fight just hoping to make some like minded friends.


 

I like the way you believe, keep talking.


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## Thor827 (May 15, 2010)

Woodsman69 said:


> I'll spend my time learning more about the creator of the universe Jesus Christ.



It's always good to get a better understanding of what others believe. It won't stop you from loving Jesus, it might help you relate to others a little better.


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## Forced Entry (May 15, 2010)

Woodsman69 said:


> I'll spend my time learning more about the creator of the universe Jesus Christ.



Dang!!! You'd better hit the books cause from what I understand is that jesus christ is the son of god, not the creator and I ain't even religous and know that.  If you don't like the thread...don't open it or better yet, don't post in it. This fellow has a right to seek answers just as you do in your bible thumpin threads which I have respectfully not posted in...now go educate yourself a little better before trolling up a serious thread such as this one.


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## 243Savage (May 15, 2010)

aniwayah said:


> Does anyone here study or practice any form of native american religion? We talked about it some at work today and it got me to wondering.



I don't come in here much, but I have to say this.

Seems like folks are making more of an effort to run the mans question, as well as many others,  into the ground by discounting it as not a valid religious practice and pagan in foundation.  Why not discuss it and maybe learn something interesting, instead of always shouting "My God is better" and try respecting one anothers individual beliefs?  

I really don't understand the way some of these conversations take a turn the way they do.


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## Vernon Holt (May 15, 2010)

*The Creator*



Forced Entry said:


> "*Dang!!! You'd better hit the books cause from what I understand is that jesus christ is the son of god, not the creator and I ain't even religous and know that*."


 
Forced Entry:  I suggest that you read the first four verses of the Gospel of John, chapter one, and see if it changes your mind as to who the creator might have been.


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 15, 2010)

243Savage said:


> I don't come in here much, but I have to say this.
> 
> Seems like folks are making more of an effort to run the mans question, as well as many others, into the ground by discounting it as not a valid religious practice and pagan in foundation. Why not discuss it and maybe learn something interesting, instead of always shouting "My God is better" and try respecting one anothers individual beliefs?
> 
> I really don't understand the way some of these conversations take a turn the way they do.


 
100% agreed.


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## Forced Entry (May 15, 2010)

Vernon Holt said:


> Forced Entry:  I suggest that you read the first four verses of the Gospel of John, chapter one, and see if it changes your mind as to who the creator might have been.



I believe that I just stepped on a pile that something as simple as a stick or grass can't get rid of for posting something about something that frankly I'm uneducated about,but the reason for my posting was for someone posting (bashing) in this thread without having an open mind. Sorry and thank you....

I'm still interested in the native americans thoughts......


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 15, 2010)

http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/eighteen/ekeyinfo/natrel.htm

Native American Religion in Early America

Christine Leigh Heyrman 
Department of History, University of Delaware 
©National Humanities Center



Teaching about Native American religion is a challenging task to tackle with students at any level, if only because the Indian systems of belief and ritual were as legion as the tribes inhabiting North America. So let’s begin by trimming down that bewildering variety to manageable proportions with three glittering generalizations (which might, with luck, prove more useful than misleading).

First, at the time of European contact, all but the simplest indigenous cultures in North America had developed coherent religious systems that included cosmologies—creation myths, transmitted orally from one generation to the next, which purported to explain how those societies had come into being. 
Second, most native peoples worshiped an all-powerful, all-knowing Creator or “Master Spirit” (a being that assumed a variety of forms and both genders). They also venerated or placated a host of lesser supernatural entities, including an evil god who dealt out disaster, suffering, and death. 
Third and finally, the members of most tribes believed in the immortality of the human soul and an afterlife, the main feature of which was the abundance of every good thing that made earthly life secure and pleasant. 

Important as it is to appreciate the affinities between the religious cultures of Indians and early modern Europeans (and Euro-Americans), there were real differences that must be kept in mind. The most important is that Indians did not distinguish between the natural and the supernatural. On the contrary, Native Americans perceived the “material” and “spiritual” as a unified realm of being—a kind of extended kinship network. In their view, plants, animals and humans partook of divinity through their close connection with “guardian spirits,” a myriad of “supernatural” entities who imbued their “natural” kin with life and power. By contrast, Protestant and Catholic traditions were more inclined to emphasize the gulf that separated the pure, spiritual beings in heaven—God, the angels, and saints—from sinful men and women mired in a profane world filled with temptation and evil.


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## earl (May 15, 2010)

I would like to hear it from the poster who practices it.


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 15, 2010)

earl said:


> I would like to hear it from the poster who practices it.


As would I Earl, as would I.


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## crackerdave (May 15, 2010)

You probably won't hear from him again,thanks to the usual attacks by ignorant people.

Woodsman69 was bragging about how nice everybody had been on his "Spring Garden" thread in another forum.


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## Jeff Phillips (May 15, 2010)

That makes 3 of us.


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 16, 2010)

What a shame, a topic worthy of discussion and study and the little men of the world ran him off before he could even get started.

Wow, just think how many Christians there would be today if Jesus based his ministry on such behavior. I would say, you should be ashamed, but I know it wouldn't do any good. Your hearts are no longer that of a child, they have hardened to those of an adult.


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## aniwayah (May 16, 2010)

Thank you to all the ones who sent pms in support. I will not get drug into a debate over right and wrong. As I said I was just looking for others who see things the way I do. I know there are others out there and would like to find them. I have no problem answering questions but I see no need for disrespect. I asked a simple question and was attacked from the start. I should really thank you because it just confirms my beleifs in my heart.


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## dawg2 (May 16, 2010)

aniwayah said:


> Thank you to all the ones who sent pms in support. I will not get drug into a debate over right and wrong. As I said I was just looking for others who see things the way I do. I know there are others out there and would like to find them. I have no problem answering questions but I see no need for disrespect. I asked a simple question and was attacked from the start. I should really thank you because it just confirms my beleifs in my heart.


Don't the Native Americans have a story about a great flood?  I had heard that, but never spent enough time really researching it.


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## aniwayah (May 16, 2010)

Yes look up the cherokee deluge and you will find the story. There are also creation stories, healing stories and tales of miracles. These stories were not on recorded in old times just spread by mouth. The stories are designed to teach us how to love and live and treat all of creation. There are great lessons in the tales. It tells us how Creator uses nature and animals to tell us things we need to know.


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## dawg2 (May 16, 2010)

aniwayah said:


> Yes look up the cherokee deluge and you will find the story. There are also creation stories, healing stories and tales of miracles. These stories were not on recorded in old times just spread by mouth. The stories are designed to teach us how to love and live and treat all of creation. There are great lessons in the tales. It tells us how Creator uses nature and animals to tell us things we need to know.


Do other tribes have similar stories about the flood?


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## Son (May 16, 2010)

I support Native American religion and believe it very worthwhile. Although I don't express my religion much due to a majority not understanding. Most don't accept what they don't understand.
My Mother was of Cherokee lineage and it's been passed to me and my children. I also support the Christian faith. It's worked for me 68 years so far.


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## gtparts (May 16, 2010)

Son said:


> I support Native American religion and believe it very worthwhile. Although I don't express my religion much due to a majority not understanding. Most don't accept what they don't understand.
> My Mother was of Cherokee lineage and it's been passed to me and my children. I also support the Christian faith. It's worked for me 68 years so far.



You will find many who do understand and, while you believe it serves you well and are certainly at liberty to do so, if you "support" the Christian faith, then you are probably familiar with Galatians 1: 6-10. 

God makes it clear through Paul's letter that blending other belief systems with the Gospel is wrong. I would urge you to reexamine where you are spiritually and make a choice. God counts those who would ride the fence with the opposition.

Prayers for you and yours have been made.


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## slip (May 16, 2010)

this question is for aniwayah and only him.


what do you believe happens when we die? and what happens when animals die?


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## chiefsquirrel83 (May 16, 2010)

I have been very interested in Native American Religion. I have traced my last name Youngblood all the way to the Creeks of South Carolina. I am a Christian and believe in Jesus Christ, but I have always been interested in how they see a Spirit even in a piece of dirt. I love native american stories especially Muscogee Tribes(Creek, Seminole, Mayaimi, and Calusa Tribes. I believe in creationism but the stories are amazing on how animals and other natural wonders came about through their story telling. Just a side note. You got to ignore Woodsman69....and if you are lucky he won't attack you and call you names in pm's


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## chiefsquirrel83 (May 16, 2010)

someone has to post a picture to prove who they are now why don't you post one of yourself... wow they let anyone be members on here


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## Nicodemus (May 16, 2010)

Aniwayah, I hope you stay around.


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## dawg2 (May 16, 2010)

Nicodemus said:


> This gentleman does not have to prove anything, to anybody.
> 
> Aniwayah, I hope you stay around.



I agree


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 16, 2010)

Nicodemus said:


> This gentleman does not have to prove anything, to anybody.
> 
> Aniwayah, I hope you stay around.


Thank you Nick, I too hope he comes back to educate us in the ways of Native American Spirituality.


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 16, 2010)

Wow,,,,,,REALLY,,,,,,,you said that???? REALLY ????


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## slip (May 16, 2010)

This gentleman does not have to prove anything, to anybody.

Aniwayah, I hope you stay around.[/QUOTE]



dawg2 said:


> I agree


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## crackerdave (May 16, 2010)

I feel better now.... I went and pooped in Woodsman69's Garden Thread.


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## aniwayah (May 16, 2010)

Just for the record I am mostly white.  My mother is white my father is one half cherokee. They both attend Boiling springs old baptist church. I look very much white as I took after my mothers, dad. I chose to worship as I do after I started to study the natural  world and saw Creators gifts in all I see. Of course theres alot more to it but as to why I made my choice is hard to put in words for me.


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 16, 2010)

aniwayah said:


> Just for the record I am mostly white. My mother is white my father is one half cherokee. They both attend Boiling springs old baptist church. I look very much whits as I took after my mothers, dad. I chose to worship as I do after I started to study the natural world and saw Creators gifts in all I see. Of course theres alot more to it but as to why I made my choice is hard to put in words for me.


 
It is most certainly impossible to go out into nature and not notice the handywork of the Creator. Can you expand more on your beliefs?


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## aniwayah (May 16, 2010)

slip said:


> this question is for aniwayah and only him.
> 
> 
> what do you believe happens when we die? and what happens when animals die?



The way I see it when I cross the river I will be with Creator and my ancesters. I know what you are getting at and to answer the real question when animals die they go back to the earth. The fact that i call them brother is out of respect and not because they will be with me after I cross. The hawk and coyote ie as much my brother as the rain. I need these things for Food clothing and the like. I look at all things with equal respect because we are all part of the earthly circle.Again I know this seams short and simple and yes theres more to it but I can only tipe so much until my eyes cross.


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## aniwayah (May 16, 2010)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> It is most certainly impossible to go out into nature and not notice the handywork of the Creator. Can you expand more on your beliefs?



It would take me a month to put my thoughts and feeling in words it is easier to answer one question at a time, Just to much to write it all down.


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## crackerdave (May 16, 2010)

I'll be honest and say: I often feel closer to God out on the water or in the woods than I do in church. Just sayin' -


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## slip (May 16, 2010)

aniwayah said:


> The way I see it when I cross the river I will be with Creator and my ancesters. I know what you are getting at and to answer the real question when animals die they go back to the earth. The fact that i call them brother is out of respect and not because they will be with me after I cross. The hawk and coyote ie as much my brother as the rain. I need these things for Food clothing and the like. I look at all things with equal respect because we are all part of the earthly circle.Again I know this seams short and simple and yes theres more to it but I can only tipe so much until my eyes cross.



thats very neat, thanks for shareing.

there was nothing behind that question other then the question, im not here to belittle or attack you, i just have a honest interest.

i admire the respect you show for the earth and animals.


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 16, 2010)

aniwayah said:


> It would take me a month to put my thoughts and feeling in words it is easier to answer one question at a time, Just to much to write it all down.


 

My Spirit animal is Mato, the bear.
My Spirit guide is Igmutanka, the mountain lion.

Both revealed to me in dreams and I was given help interpreting these dreams by Balvarik, here on the forums.

What is your Spirit Animal?


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## aniwayah (May 16, 2010)

slip said:


> thats very neat, thanks for shareing.
> 
> there was nothing behind that question other then the question, im not here to belittle or attack you, i just have a honest interest.
> 
> i admire the respect you show for the earth and animals.



Thank you. I catch so much crap from folks who do not understand and won't take the time to get to know me. I have been accused of everything from devil worship to human sacrifice. Just because some native religions did some of these things its not fair to throw us all under the bus.


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## aniwayah (May 16, 2010)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> My Spirit animal is Mato, the bear.
> My Spirit guide is Igmutanka, the mountain lion.
> 
> Both revealed to me in dreams and I was given help interpreting these dreams by Balvarik, here on the forums.
> ...



The wolf. Also a very miunderstood creature.


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## slip (May 16, 2010)

aniwayah said:


> Thank you. I catch so much crap from folks who do not understand and won't take the time to get to know me. I have been accused of everything from devil worship to human sacrifice. Just because some native religions did some of these things its not fair to throw us all under the bus.



you have the same freedom of religion as i do, sir.


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## Son (May 16, 2010)

I see no conflict in my beliefs. A picture of me would do no good as I look very white. Probably due to the Irish side. But, let me enlighten those who don't believe those of us who do have Native American lineage. While attending a pow wow in Alabama some years back. I had arrived early and stopped to ask a group of elderly people under a pavilion where the pow wow would be held. Instead of answering my question, one of em said. "You're part Cherokee, aren't ya"?, sure took me by surprise, then she said the pow wow would begin in a couple hours. They then opened a book, showing a group or Principle Chiefs visiting Washington. Some were dressed in white clothing, some in native clothing. The group then said, "We could put right in that group and you wouldn't stand out". Why? Because some of em were mixed blood. One of the most famous Cherokee Principal Chiefs was John Ross. Ross was 1/8th Cherokee.  My children are of Cherokee and Creek lineage and proud of it.
Anybody interested in The Cherokee, do a search on the net. Cherokee Rolls, Henderson rolls. My relatives are the Reeds and Murphys.


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 16, 2010)

aniwayah said:


> The wolf. Also a very miunderstood creature.


 

Sunkmanitu Tanka in Lakota.

How was it revealed to you?


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## aniwayah (May 16, 2010)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Sunkmanitu Tanka in Lakota.
> 
> How was it revealed to you?[/QU
> 3 day vision quest


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 16, 2010)

aniwayah said:


> Miguel Cervantes said:
> 
> 
> > Sunkmanitu Tanka in Lakota.
> ...


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## aniwayah (May 16, 2010)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> aniwayah said:
> 
> 
> > That is cool. Where and when did you do the vision quest. Did you use a tribal Shaman or did you go it alone?
> ...


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## chiefsquirrel83 (May 16, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> I'll be honest and say: I often feel closer to God out on the water or in the woods than I do in church. Just sayin' -



amen!!!


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 16, 2010)

aniwayah said:


> Miguel Cervantes said:
> 
> 
> > 10 years ago in the chattahoochee nf and I was alone as is the custom. No food very little water only prayer and self study.It used to be done with no water but you must be well hydrated and in very good shape before hand so its not a health risk.
> ...


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## earl (May 16, 2010)

aniwayah said:


> It would take me a month to put my thoughts and feeling in words it is easier to answer one question at a time, Just to much to write it all down.





Just keep on posting .We got a long time to listen . Glad you are getting this thing turned in the right direction.


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## DEERFU (May 16, 2010)

My avatar pic ought to do, it should look whitey enough. Most of the time ignorant folks just call me "mexican". My grandmother on my fathers side was full blooded Cherokee and came off the reservation when she was 9 (from the Owl clan) because her father was having a hard time living there and supporting 8 kids. My great grandmother was also full blooded Cherokee from Arrowood decent. I was raised Christian but would certainly love to hear more of this mans beliefs if someone doesn't run him off first.


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## Son (May 16, 2010)

> I'll be honest and say: I often feel closer to God out on the water or in the woods than I do in church. Just sayin'



I'll second that. No politics or pressure from others in nature.


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## DEERFU (May 16, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> I'll be honest and say: I often feel closer to God out on the water or in the woods than I do in church. Just sayin' -



Amen! Always for me. I aint much for organized religion. I spend a lot of time praying and thanking God for his many blessings while I'm alone in the wood's.


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## Ronnie T (May 17, 2010)

DEERFU39 said:


> Amen! Always for me. I aint much for organized religion. I spend a lot of time praying and thanking God for his many blessings while I'm alone in the wood's.




You should read up on the blessings available thru God's Son.
There's some unbelievable blessings.


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## Randy (May 17, 2010)

Who is the Creator?


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## earl (May 17, 2010)

Randy said:


> Who is the Creator?





Depends on your religion. Or his . Or mine .
But I think you know that .


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## Randy (May 17, 2010)

So the indians believe in someone other than God?


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## earl (May 17, 2010)

If you hold that God is God as defined by the JudeoChristian belief , I would venture to say yes. If you mean God as in a higher power ,whatever name you call him by , the answer may be different .


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## Keebs (May 17, 2010)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> My Spirit animal is Mato, the bear.
> My Spirit guide is Igmutanka, the mountain lion.
> 
> Both revealed to me in dreams and I was given help interpreting these dreams by Balvarik, here on the forums.
> ...


Well dang Sparky, you just keep amazing me darlin'! 



slip said:


> you have the same freedom of religion as i do, sir.


 I agree slip!

I'm listening.............


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## Jranger (May 17, 2010)

dawg2 said:


> Actually, you don't need to leave.  I would rather you stay and discuss your religion.  I would like to hear more.



X2, I rather enjoy finding parallels in my beliefs with the beliefs of others...


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## Lowjack (May 17, 2010)

.....


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 17, 2010)

Randy said:


> So the indians believe in someone other than God?


 
I don't believe that is correct. (and I know that by posting this a slew of misinterpreted rhetoric will be generated)

A common concept is that of a dual divinity: a Creator who is responsible for the creation of the world and is recognized in religious ritual and prayers a mythical individual, a hero or trickster, who teaches culture, proper behavior and provides sustenance to the tribe.
There are also spirits which control the weather, spirits which interact with humans, and others who inhabit the underworld. Simultaneously the Creator and the spirits may be perceived as a single spiritual force, as in the unity called *Wakan-Tanka* by the Lakota and Dakota.


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## Jeffriesw (May 17, 2010)

DEERFU39 said:


> My avatar pic ought to do, it should look whitey enough. Most of the time ignorant folks just call me "mexican". My grandmother on my fathers side was full blooded Cherokee and came off the reservation when she was 9 (from the Owl clan) because her father was having a hard time living there and supporting 8 kids. My great grandmother was also full blooded Cherokee from Arrowood decent. I was raised Christian but would certainly love to hear more of this mans beliefs if someone doesn't run him off first.




My Wife and kids get that alot, Just the other day My oldest son stopped on the side of the road to get something that blew out of the back of his truck and had a man ride by and yell at him to "go back where he came from". You would figure people would be smarter than that but they ain't.

My wife's mother is mostly Native American, The wife and both of my kids favor her with the dark skin, certain facial feature's and brown/black eyes.

That is my two Sons in my Avavtar


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## Jeffriesw (May 17, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> I feel better now.... I went and pooped in Woodsman69's Garden Thread.



 Spreadin some fertilizer ? You just ain't right cracker


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 17, 2010)

Swamp Runner said:


> My Wife and kids get that alot, Just the other day My oldest son stopped on the side of the road to get something that blew out of the back of his truck and had a man ride by and yell at him to "go back where he came from". You would figure people would be smarter than that but they ain't.
> 
> My wife's mother is mostly Native American, The wife and both of my kids favor her with the dark skin, certain facial feature's and brown/black eyes.
> 
> That is my two Sons in my Avavtar


 
Sounds like the ignoramusses doin the yelling were the ones that needed to go back to where they came from. It is truly frustrating to listen to the level of ignorance the white man in this country has allowed himself to sink to.


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## ambush80 (May 17, 2010)

Jranger said:


> X2, I rather enjoy finding parallels in my beliefs with the beliefs of others...



I can't wait till some of the "strong and righteous" Christians tell you how Universalism is the work of the Devil.


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## loki (May 17, 2010)

To not believe in the Great Father is like saying the Sun revolves around the Earth.

To those who see Totem-ism as heresy,please explain why our belief is wrong and your belief is right??

My father schooled us in the workings of the Bible,Tanakh,Koran and the teachings of Nature.

We were taught that spirituality is about the Creator.
Also spirituality has nothing to do with religion to the people of the northern plains either.

The Great Father created the sky,waters,earth,plants and all creatures.

My Pa is much more eloquent than I but he is not well.
He has been recovering now since his six week stay in the hospital for meningoencephalitis.

For me to say that their is but one religion would be to say that everyone who prayed for my Pa who wasn't of the same faith were wasting their time.



If you get a spare moment,if not too much to ask, my Pa could use every kind thought and prayer you could muster.

Thank you,
Rick


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 17, 2010)

loki said:


> To not believe in the Great Father is like saying the Sun revolves around the Earth.
> 
> To those who see Totem-ism as heresy,please explain why our belief is wrong and your belief is right??
> 
> ...


 
Rick,

 We certainly will, Mike has been a great contributor to these forums and deserves all we can offer him. Tell him we are lifting him up in our prayers.

Hugh


----------



## Randy (May 17, 2010)

Well I guess I will just keep my Christian beliefs out of this one.

Loki,
I will say a Prayer to God for your Pa.


----------



## slip (May 17, 2010)

loki said:


> To not believe in the Great Father is like saying the Sun revolves around the Earth.
> 
> To those who see Totem-ism as heresy,please explain why our belief is wrong and your belief is right??
> 
> ...



He'll be in our thoughts and prayers.


----------



## Keebs (May 17, 2010)

loki said:


> To not believe in the Great Father is like saying the Sun revolves around the Earth.
> 
> To those who see Totem-ism as heresy,please explain why our belief is wrong and your belief is right??
> 
> ...



My pleasure!


----------



## crackerdave (May 17, 2010)

Prayers sent for your dad,Rick.Good to hear from you - I didn't know your dad was so sick.

Mike,if you read this,know that there are folks here who haven't forgotten you,brother.
Dave

Sorry for the de-rail,aniwayah.


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## DEERFU (May 17, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> You should read up on the blessings available thru God's Son.
> There's some unbelievable blessings.


 I am indeed a Blessed man!!!!!!!!! And if by "God's Son" you mean Jesus Christ, he's already my personal saviour and the biggest blessing of all. That doesn't mean I can't have a deep love for his natural creation. I consider that to be a huge blessing too and would never take it for granted. I would still also like to hear more of this man's beliefs because I'm sure there are many that parallel my own.


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 17, 2010)

Here is a great Lakota prayer, one with dignity, humility and truth.

Oh, Great Spirit,
whose voice I hear in the winds
and whose breath gives life to all the world, hear me.
I am small and weak.
I need your strength and wisdom.
Let me walk in beauty and make my eyes
ever behold the red and purple sunset.
Make my hands respect the things you have made
and my ears sharp to hear your voice.
Make me wise so that I may understand
the things you have taught my people.
Let me learn the lessons you have hidden
in every leaf and rock.
I seek strength, not to be superior to my brother,
but to fight my greatest enemy – myself.
Make me always ready to come to you
with clean hands and straight eyes,
so when life fades, as the fading sunset,
my spirit will come to you
without shame.

–Chief Yellow Lark, Lakota Tribe


----------



## DEERFU (May 17, 2010)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Here is a great Lakota prayer, one with dignity, humility and truth.
> 
> Oh, Great Spirit,
> whose voice I hear in the winds
> ...



Love it!


----------



## chiefsquirrel83 (May 17, 2010)

awesome!


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## boneboy96 (May 17, 2010)

Loki, you and Mike and the rest of the family are in my thoughts and prayers!


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## Patriot44 (May 17, 2010)

You got it Loki.


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## Keebs (May 17, 2010)

DEERFU39 said:


> I am indeed a Blessed man!!!!!!!!! And if by "God's Son" you mean Jesus Christ, he's already my personal saviour and the biggest blessing of all. *That doesn't mean I can't have a deep love for his natural creation. I consider that to be a huge blessing too and would never take it for granted. I would still also like to hear more of this man's beliefs because I'm sure there are many that parallel my own.*



EXACTLY!!!!!!!  Thank you!!


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## Keebs (May 17, 2010)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Here is a great Lakota prayer, one with dignity, humility and truth.
> 
> Oh, Great Spirit,
> whose voice I hear in the winds
> ...


----------



## dawg2 (May 17, 2010)

loki said:


> To not believe in the Great Father is like saying the Sun revolves around the Earth.
> 
> To those who see Totem-ism as heresy,please explain why our belief is wrong and your belief is right??
> 
> ...



Tell Mike I send my regards.  Had not heard from him in awhile and was wondering what was going on.


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## Ronnie T (May 17, 2010)

DEERFU39 said:


> I am indeed a Blessed man!!!!!!!!! And if by "God's Son" you mean Jesus Christ, he's already my personal saviour and the biggest blessing of all. That doesn't mean I can't have a deep love for his natural creation. I consider that to be a huge blessing too and would never take it for granted. I would still also like to hear more of this man's beliefs because I'm sure there are many that parallel my own.



I agree with you - and so would I.


----------



## Ronnie T (May 17, 2010)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Here is a great Lakota prayer, one with dignity, humility and truth.
> 
> Oh, Great Spirit,
> whose voice I hear in the winds
> ...



That's a wonderful prayer.


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## slip (May 17, 2010)

i would like to hear his story of creation.

from him, and only him.


----------



## Jeffriesw (May 18, 2010)

loki said:


> To not believe in the Great Father is like saying the Sun revolves around the Earth.
> 
> To those who see Totem-ism as heresy,please explain why our belief is wrong and your belief is right??
> 
> ...




I will keep Him in my Prayers!


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## Paymaster (May 18, 2010)

My Prayers are added Loki!


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## WTM45 (May 18, 2010)

slip said:


> i would like to hear his story of creation.
> 
> from him, and only him.



It's not hard to find research materials on the Native American belief systems.

If someone wants to share their personal views, then OK.
That's what the forum is for.
There really is no need to "call them out" for any reason.
PM's work too.


Loki, tell Mike to keep up the fight.  We miss him around here, and look forward to the good news of rapid improvement and continued good health!


----------



## idsman75 (May 18, 2010)

Forced Entry said:


> Dang!!! You'd better hit the books cause from what I understand is that jesus christ is the son of god, not the creator and I ain't even religous and know that.  If you don't like the thread...don't open it or better yet, don't post in it. This fellow has a right to seek answers just as you do in your bible thumpin threads which I have respectfully not posted in...now go educate yourself a little better before trolling up a serious thread such as this one.



I'm doing this from memory so I might not get it all right but...

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was god.  He was in the beginning with God.  All things were made through Him and without him, nothing has been made that was made.

John 1 verses something or other.  You can look it up if you're inclined but I'm not going to do work for someone who probably doesn't care.

In a Nutshell -- Jesus and God are one and the same (the whole trinity concept).  "The Word" refers specifically to Jesus and, yes, Jesus was just as integral in creation as God the Father since they are one and the same.


----------



## idsman75 (May 18, 2010)

aniwayah said:


> Thank you. I catch so much crap from folks who do not understand and won't take the time to get to know me. I have been accused of everything from devil worship to human sacrifice. Just because some native religions did some of these things its not fair to throw us all under the bus.



Work took me to a few different Indian reservations over the course of a couple years.  One thing I learned on the rez is that you shouldn't bother to be politically correct.  Just be straightforward because someone else is going to mess with you right back and it's all in fun, love, and brotherhood.  I used the term "Native American" once or twice early on and was kindly taken to the side and was told, "Call us Indians.  That's what we are."  There are more Redskins Starter jackets on people's backs on the rez than any other team.  It may not be my system of belief but it's part of our nation's heritage whether we agree or not.  I was proud to be sort of a participant (and more of a witness) in a few different ceremonies that I was invited to over the years.  To hear the story of creation first spoken in a Native tongue and then spoken in English in a lodge on the side of a hill out in the country just before we ate was absolutely fascinating.  The drums and the singing into and past sunset was like existing on both earth and in another world simultaneously.

I may have my own belief system and it may conflict with Native traditions and beliefs, but I hope everyone who calls themselves American has enough security in their own religion to take some time to appreciate them.  They're part of our heritage.


----------



## slip (May 18, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> It's not hard to find research materials on the Native American belief systems.
> 
> If someone wants to share their personal views, then OK.
> That's what the forum is for.
> ...



yeah i know, but i would like to hear it from him. he said we could ask questions. the reason i said "only him" is obvious.


----------



## WTM45 (May 18, 2010)

slip said:


> yeah i know, but i would like to hear it from him. he said we could ask questions. the reason i said "only him" is obvious.



Understood.

My suggestion is simply to take a little time to research for a better understanding when answered.  It makes a big difference.  I'm only speaking from experience.

It's just like any other religious belief system, there are variations of interpretation found within.  But one has to let go of their own predisposed beliefs to really understand.


----------



## aniyunwaya (May 18, 2010)

Greetings to all!
 This is my first post after being a long time lurker. I am enjoying the spirited( pun intended )discussion. i was adopted into the Wolf clan last year and feel very fortunate to have been given this honor.
I look forward to getting to know everyone here!


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## Keebs (May 18, 2010)

aniyunwaya said:


> Greetings to all!
> This is my first post after being a long time lurker. I am enjoying the spirited( pun intended )discussion. i was adopted into the Wolf clan last year and feel very fortunate to have been given this honor.
> I look forward to getting to know everyone here!



Well, with your first, you caused my first, a step into the Spiritual Forum................ I've enjoyed reading, keep on posting!


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 18, 2010)

I never new we had such a strong Tsalagi representation here.
Tell me Ani Waya brothers, what is your clan color, and clan wood?


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## slip (May 18, 2010)

aniyunwaya said:


> Greetings to all!
> This is my first post after being a long time lurker. I am enjoying the spirited( pun intended )discussion. i was adopted into the Wolf clan last year and feel very fortunate to have been given this honor.
> I look forward to getting to know everyone here!



Welcome.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (May 18, 2010)

While we are on the topic, here's a question for the non-native americans. Please, non-native americans respond only.

What is the Tsalagi National Anthem.


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 18, 2010)

Interesting 115 replies and 1385 views. I think they're skeered...


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## dawg2 (May 18, 2010)

Amazing Grace


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 18, 2010)

dawg2 said:


> Amazing Grace


 
Ding ding ding ding ding.

Check out the words, translated to english of course:

God's Son paid for us
then to Heaven he went
after paying for us

But he said, when He rose
"I'll come again"
He said when He spoke

All the earth will end when he comes
All will see him
All over the earth

All the good people living
He will come after

Heaven always, 
In peace they will live.​


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## WTM45 (May 18, 2010)

Purely a reflection of the acculturation which began in 1817, resulting from the arrival of missionaries from the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions and the introduction of Sequoyah's Cherokee syllabary. 

Christianity was pushing out the original religious belief systems of the Cherokee and the Creek.  No way does the "Amazing Grace" lyrics of the Trail of Tears era reflect original Native American religious beliefs.


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 18, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Purely a reflection of the acculturation which began in 1817, resulting from the arrival of missionaries from the American Board of Commissioners for Foreign Missions and the introduction of Sequoyah's Cherokee syllabary.
> 
> Christianity was pushing out the original religious belief systems of the Cherokee and the Creek. No way does the "Amazing Grace" lyrics of the Trail of Tears era reflect original Native American religious beliefs.


 
You mean original Native American spiritual beliefs. They do not consider it a religion..but in short, you are correct.


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## WTM45 (May 18, 2010)

Their spiritual beliefs WERE their religion.  It was as much a part of their everyday lives as was gathering food and raising their families.
Christianity was shoved upon them, as they were viewed as lesser humans by white settlers and their government.
I know the history well, as I am of Creek heritage.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (May 18, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Their spiritual beliefs WERE their religion. It was as much a part of their everyday lives as was gathering food and raising their families.
> Christianity was shoved upon them, as they were viewed as lesser humans by white settlers and their government.
> I know the history well, as I am of Creek heritage.


 
This is where our paths split. There is a distinct differnce between religion and spirituality.


----------



## WTM45 (May 18, 2010)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> This is where our paths split. There is a distinct differnce between religion and spirituality.



I did not imply nor say there was not a difference.

I am speaking from actual historical evidence and documentation.  The Native Americans, specifically the Cherokee and Creek prior to 1817 and their forced removal and relocation thereafter, followed a religious belief system which was clearly distinct from Christianity.


----------



## dawg2 (May 18, 2010)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Ding ding ding ding ding.
> 
> Check out the words, translated to english of course:
> 
> ...



My wife is part Cherokee so I was doing some research and stumbled on that nugget years ago.  I thought it was an interesting anthem for the Cherkee.


----------



## crackerdave (May 18, 2010)

There was an interesting sermon by Adrian Rogers on the radio at lunch today.He was teaching about judging others from Matthew,chapter 7,verses 1-6.
Jesus said we will be judged by the same measure that we judge others.Also,about offering to remove a "mote" from our brother's eye when we have a "beam" in our own and are unable to see clearly enough to worry about anybody else's faults.

I say all that to say this: Although my first reaction to the original post was: "Jesus is the only way to heaven," I didn't jump right in and stomp on the Native religion because I respect their right to choose.I do not think it's right to worship the creation _equally_ with the Creator,though.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (May 18, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> There was an interesting sermon by Adrian Rogers on the radio at lunch today.He was teaching about judging others from Matthew,chapter 7,verses 1-6.
> Jesus said we will be judged by the same measure that we judge others.Also,about offering to remove a "mote" from our brother's eye when we have a "beam" in our own and are unable to see clearly enough to worry about anybody else's faults.
> 
> I say all that to say this: Although my first reaction to the original post was: "Jesus is the only way to heaven," I didn't jump right in and stomp on the Native religion because I respect their right to choose.I do not think it's right to worship the creation _equally_ with the Creator,though.


 
I don't think they worship it equally, but out of respect for what the Creator has given them. Imagine what this country would look like if Christianity gave such reverence to all of God's creation.


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## aniyunwaya (May 18, 2010)

clan color red    wood hickory


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## loki (May 18, 2010)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> This is where our paths split. There is a distinct differnce between religion and spirituality.



Sir,

Religion is something that is used by those who lost there way and forgot that by offering thanks for everything that is granted to us was given by the Great Father.

The tribes lived and gave thanks every day for the graces that were granted to them.

It took the great ships from Europe starting in 1492 to show how ignorant we were as we did not build churches,know that we should attend service on sunday  and they did try to educate the savages too.

Spirituality of the tribes was how everyday was lived.

To those so insecure of their own faith in the Great Father, will argue that without offering ones self to that ONE religion is paramount to a eternity of ****ation.

I will not argue against anyone's faith as who am I to say my beliefs are right and your beliefs are wrong??

I'll leave that to the Mullah's and self-proclaimed right-wing wanna-be prophets.

Evil comes in all forms that walk on two leg's!

Rick


----------



## crackerdave (May 18, 2010)

aniyunwaya said:


> Greetings to all!
> This is my first post after being a long time lurker. I am enjoying the spirited( pun intended )discussion. i was adopted into the Wolf clan last year and feel very fortunate to have been given this honor.
> I look forward to getting to know everyone here!



Welcome,brother!

Come join us at D.O.G. II, up in the hills this coming weekend.


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 18, 2010)

loki said:


> Sir,
> 
> Religion is something that is used by those who lost there way and forgot that by offering thanks for everything that is granted to us was given by the Great Father.
> 
> ...


 
Very well said Rick.


----------



## crackerdave (May 18, 2010)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I don't think they worship it equally, but out of respect for what the Creator has given them. Imagine what this country would look like if Christianity gave such reverence to all of God's creation.



Amen,senor!

We as a nation have so little respect or reverence for what God gave us.We've trashed it,in the name of "progress." Remember the ad on TV with the Indian standing by the road with a tear rolling down his face because of the trash and traffic on that road? _That's_ what I call a man with heart.


----------



## Ronnie T (May 18, 2010)

idsman75 said:


> Work took me to a few different Indian reservations over the course of a couple years.  One thing I learned on the rez is that you shouldn't bother to be politically correct.  Just be straightforward because someone else is going to mess with you right back and it's all in fun, love, and brotherhood.  I used the term "Native American" once or twice early on and was kindly taken to the side and was told, "Call us Indians.  That's what we are."  There are more Redskins Starter jackets on people's backs on the rez than any other team.  It may not be my system of belief but it's part of our nation's heritage whether we agree or not.  I was proud to be sort of a participant (and more of a witness) in a few different ceremonies that I was invited to over the years.  To hear the story of creation first spoken in a Native tongue and then spoken in English in a lodge on the side of a hill out in the country just before we ate was absolutely fascinating.  The drums and the singing into and past sunset was like existing on both earth and in another world simultaneously.
> 
> I may have my own belief system and it may conflict with Native traditions and beliefs, but I hope everyone who calls themselves American has enough security in their own religion to take some time to appreciate them.  They're part of our heritage.



I agree with you.  This is a spiritual forum.  And all who believe in God should be treated with respect here.  Whether you agree with them or not.


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 18, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> I agree with you. This is a spiritual forum. And all who believe in God should be treated with respect here. Whether you agree with them or not.


 
All should be treated with respect, lest they garner attention otherwise, and at that point they should simply be ignored..


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## Capt Quirk (May 18, 2010)

I'm very interested in how the Indians looked on Earth Spirits known as Elementals.


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## WTM45 (May 18, 2010)

All should be treated with respect, regardless of what they believe.


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## crackerdave (May 19, 2010)

I agree - respect others views,but also know that it is the duty of a Christian to warn others about where any religion not Christ-centered will get you.The decision then becomes theirs and theirs alone.


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## Capt Quirk (May 19, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> I agree - respect others views,but also know that it is the duty of a Christian to warn others about where any religion not Christ-centered will get you.The decision then becomes theirs and theirs alone.



Being a native American descendant, I'm sure his people are all to aware of what happens. Convert or be crushed. The Spanish Inquisition also comes to mind, as well as the witch hunts, the Aztecs, and the list goes on.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (May 20, 2010)

Capt Quirk said:


> Being a native American descendant, I'm sure his people are all to aware of what happens. Convert or be crushed. The Spanish Inquisition also comes to mind, as well as the witch hunts, the Aztecs, and the list goes on.


 Good reminder.


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## Thor827 (May 20, 2010)

Capt Quirk said:


> Being a native American descendant, I'm sure his people are all to aware of what happens. Convert or be crushed. The Spanish Inquisition also comes to mind, as well as the witch hunts, the Aztecs, and the list goes on.



Not to mention the crusades that took place in Eastern Europe and Scandinavia. Followers of the Pagan faiths were slaughtered in mass in the name of Christ. Look up St. Olaf of Norway. He's a hero to the church, but he's still hated by those of us that follow the old ways. That being said, I think christianity has progressed to a more peaceful state and can coexist with those of us who choose not to follow it. The only danger of forced conversion that remains is the rapid spread of islam.


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## aniyunwaya (May 20, 2010)

Chief Yonaguska after listening to several chapters of Matthew:

" Well it seems to be a good book- strange that the white people are no better - after having had it so long"


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## christianhunter (May 20, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Their spiritual beliefs WERE their religion.  It was as much a part of their everyday lives as was gathering food and raising their families.
> Christianity was shoved upon them, as they were viewed as lesser humans by white settlers and their government.
> I know the history well, as I am of Creek heritage.



I have Irish,Cherokee,and Creek.
That should explain a lot.I'm 1/4 Indian and do not know the first thing about that part of my heritage.Don't know much about the Irish heritage either.Both were good at fightin'.
There is a recipe for a dish my Great grandmother,called cush(Sp?).It is like soupy chicken dressing(with out the chicken)it is good though.


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## Nicodemus (May 20, 2010)

I know a little about some of the religions of the Indians, but I prefer the weapons and lifestyles much more. I know those purty well...


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## DEERFU (May 20, 2010)

Nicodemus said:


> I know a little about some of the religions of the Indians, but I prefer the weapons and lifestyles much more. I know those purty well...



 Yes Sir you do indeed


----------



## chiefsquirrel83 (May 20, 2010)

who all on here has Native American last names!


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## loki (May 20, 2010)

Last names were assigned to children as they were taken from reservation homes and sent to christian schools.

To break a culture you must kill their heritage and erase their past.

My families last name was taken from the German couple who befriended my relation as they made their way from Wounded Knee,SD that December 30th across SD,ND and into MN.

It is a sorry state that in the name of the Holy Father that people would commit such atrocities. 


We now know what the "Blue-Coats" did and used such idea's of bringing "religion to the heathens" as a point of reason for taking children to be "re-educated".

It is quite amusing for some to claim one religion is a "religion of peace" when if they would just study the history of those who used that same religion(Custer=Methodist,Sherman=Catholic,Grant=Methodist,Sully=Baptist) to subjugate the indigenous people of the plains.

Simple history but it brings to light such things as biological warfare and what we would know call war crimes(killing of entire camps to include all men,women and children).

But who am I to point fingers?
I will never say your religion is wrong as I shed my own blood for those to worship their sect of islam.

No matter if you pray to Jesus or to the Great Father for divine help for another in need,it matters not as your faith is your own personal relationship with the Almighty.


Rick


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## Nicodemus (May 21, 2010)

Native American last names are a new one to me? That`s interestin`.


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## chiefsquirrel83 (May 21, 2010)

Youngblood-grandmother completed a book on our surname. (2 Origins of Youngblood German-Jungbluth and Native American) Ours originated from the Creeks of Santee in South Carolina. Irish woman married into a Creek family (Youngblood and Yellow Sand) that actually began some of the Clemson Settlement that was later taken over by the Cherokee. They were forced out to Hazlehurst, Georgia and North Florida. They were the disbanded and my great-great-grandfather ended up in Tampa running a general store/pharmacy. The rest is history.


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 24, 2010)

loki said:


> No matter if you pray to Jesus or to the Great Father for divine help for another in need,it matters not as your faith is your own personal relationship with the Almighty.
> 
> 
> Rick


 
Exactly


----------



## Capt Quirk (May 24, 2010)

Maybe I should start another thread, but I'm interested in the Indian's beliefs and legends about Elementals.


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## crackerdave (May 24, 2010)

Capt Quirk said:


> Being a native American descendant, I'm sure his people are all to aware of what happens. Convert or be crushed. The Spanish Inquisition also comes to mind, as well as the witch hunts, the Aztecs, and the list goes on.



Those were terrible wrongs done by terrible people.Perhaps we as a nation are still doing similar things around the world.

There is no doubt who will be doing the "crushing" when Jesus returns.Some who call themselves Christians will be in the pile.


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## aniyunwaya (May 24, 2010)

http://incenseinformation.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/native-american-medicine-wheel.jpg


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## christianhunter (May 25, 2010)

There are so many theories on how the Indians got to the Americas to start with.Couple that with not knowing their true heritage from old.The great spirit,could be all that was left from generation to generation to pass down.I can say this with certainty,if they deny JESUS,they deny eternity.JESUS may have another NAME in the Indian tongue,this I do not know.Their Salvation is in The Hand of GOD through HIS SON.I have 25% Indian in my bloodline,and I find it interesting,but no more than the 50% Irish,and 25% English.It is just a make up of what I consist of,my Spirit belongs to THE LORD.


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## loki (May 25, 2010)

“History is written by the victors.”

To assimilate the conquered people,you destroy their history,erase their beliefs and convert their children as soon as they can speak.

Rick


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 25, 2010)

loki said:


> “History is written by the victors.”
> 
> To assimilate the conquered people,you destroy their history,erase their beliefs and convert their children as soon as they can speak.
> 
> Rick


 
Sounds like what the Socialista's are doing to America right now.


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## earl (May 25, 2010)

loki said:


> “History is written by the victors.”
> 
> To assimilate the conquered people,you destroy their history,erase their beliefs and convert their children as soon as they can speak.
> 
> Rick



That is rapidly changing as the world becomes less and less tolerant of religious crazies who attempt that. Hopefully there are enough remanents remaing so that people everywhere can worship ,or not worship , as they choose.


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## Roberson (May 25, 2010)

earl said:


> That is rapidly changing as the world becomes less and less tolerant of religious crazies who attempt that. Hopefully there are enough remanents remaing so that people everywhere can worship ,or not worship , as they choose.



well, why don't you let us worship as WE please, without cutting Christians down all the time?


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 26, 2010)

Gatorcountry said:


> well, why don't you let us worship as WE please, without cutting Christians down all the time?


 
I haven't seen Earl cut anyone down .


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## loki (May 26, 2010)

But he is correct!

Anyone who professes their Faith in Jesus Christ is labeled a "Right Wing whack job"!

Then their are those "whack jobs" who proclaim that because their faith is so great in what they believe to be the "right Faith" that anyone who does not follow that same Faith are not going to be able to ascend to the promise land!

The other "whack jobs" are the ones who interpret the Bible to their own viewpoint.

Their "other side of the coin" is the "whack jobs" of those who read the Koran and interpret those writings as such that murder is righteous and suicide is acceptable if they kill a nonbeliever.

From the beginning of time until the end of days we will have those who "think" that they have all the answers.

To those folks I shall have pity.
To go through life and not be in awe of all what the Great Father has laid before us is sad.
To have men in your unit injured so grievously that without Faith the medic could not keep going day after day.
Without Faith how can Police,Firefighters,EMT's,Doctors,nurses and all service members continue?

My Pa use to say that their were was no such thing as a Atheist in a parachute.
That as you exited the bird,smelled/felt the prop-wash from the C-130,felt the chute open and when you looked up to see your chute,he would always smile.
Before every jump a Chaplain would offer a prayer and all would bow their head,from Christian to Jew to Muslim to Atheist,all would bow their head out of faith and respect.


Too bad we all couldn't act like a company of US Army Rangers and show that same respect to everyone who does not have the same beliefs but still respect that they also believe even though it may not be what we oneself believe.   


Rick


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## earl (May 26, 2010)

Gatorcountry said:


> well, why don't you let us worship as WE please, without cutting Christians down all the time?





This is what I was talking about in the thread that ''somebody'' deletd from last nite. What happened to the ''just walk away rule ''? This post adds nothing to the OP.

GC if you would like, send me a PM and I'll explain it again . 

Sorry for the derail. Let's get back to the subject at hand .


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## Roberson (May 26, 2010)

loki said:


> But he is correct!
> 
> Anyone who professes their Faith in Jesus Christ is labeled a "Right Wing whack job"!
> 
> ...



Thank you sir.


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## Roberson (May 26, 2010)

earl said:


> This is what I was talking about in the thread that ''somebody'' deletd from last nite. What happened to the ''just walk away rule ''? This post adds nothing to the OP.
> 
> GC if you would like, send me a PM and I'll explain it again .
> 
> Sorry for the derail. Let's get back to the subject at hand .



Sorry if I was off topic, earl. But it seems to me that Christians can't discuss here without being made fun of.  why are atheists on a spiritual forum, anyway? they don't even believe we HAVE a spirit!


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## aniwayah (May 26, 2010)

Wow a week off and I am lost.


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## Capt Quirk (May 26, 2010)

aniwayah said:


> Wow a week off and I am lost.



I told you ya should have took a left at the light


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 26, 2010)

Gatorcountry said:


> Sorry if I was off topic, earl. But it seems to me that Christians can't discuss here without being made fun of. why are atheists on a spiritual forum, anyway? they don't even believe we HAVE a spirit!


 
The were created too, whether they believe it or not.


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## Roberson (May 26, 2010)

Capt Quirk said:


> Being a native American descendant, I'm sure his people are all to aware of what happens. Convert or be crushed. The Spanish Inquisition also comes to mind, as well as the witch hunts, the Aztecs, and the list goes on.



why does everyone always go on about what "Christians" did to Indians? Have you ever seen or heard about some of the horrific things Indians did to whites AND enemy tribes? Well, we could start with scalpings, kidnapping, raping, and torturing women and children, skinning folks, baking folks, tying people up and letting die a slow, painful death in the blazing sun while being eaten by ants, cutting a small hole in your bottom and pulling out your intestines while you watched, and many other various horrific tortures. Some tribes would pride themselves on their level of torture. NOW, with that being said, I AM NOT some sort of white supremist, I have had and now have friends of indian descent.


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## Capt Quirk (May 27, 2010)

Why shouldn't they have attacked the whites? Their home was being taken from them. And you can blame the French for scalpings.


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## loki (May 27, 2010)

Capt Quirk said:


> Why shouldn't they have attacked the whites? Their home was being taken from them. And you can blame the French for scalpings.



Les Frances were not to blame for the bounty on scalping that some seem to think!
It was the Dutch!
History is your friend,use it!

Pox infected clothing and blankets.
Poisoned grain and flour.
Extermination of fauna(Buffalo)to starve out.
Sherman used what he started in the South and took off the gloves when he took command of the "Indian wars" on the plains.

The cruelty of the native tribes are paramount to the "reason" for pacification and the reason used to bring the heathens "kicking and screaming" if needed into the modern times!

Yep how would the history books read if Germany had won over in Europe?
Hap Arnold of the USAAF would have been tried as a war criminal for the Dresden and Hamburg raids!


   History books are written by the Victors.

The spoken history lives among our clan as I am but 4th generation from the 1890 massacre.
My Pa is the 3rd,my Grandpa the 2nd and Uncle Grant is of the 1st!

Evil has nothing to do with a group of peoples in general(as to say a nation,state/province,county/parish,township or town).
Evil reside in all that walk on two legs.
That evil and how we each choose to fight or ignore that evil are what defines us as a person.

No-one is without evil in them but how they choose to live is what defines them.

Rick


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## Capt Quirk (May 27, 2010)

I'm sorry Loki, but I tend to blame the French for everything


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## earl (May 27, 2010)

''why does everyone always go on about what "Christians" did to Indians? ''

I'm sure we would all be interested to hear you refute the fact that it happened. The results are still affecting Native Americans today . The plethore of treaties written by the God fearing honest Christians still are not honored .


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## crackerdave (May 27, 2010)

I am proud,most of all,to be a follower of Jesus Christ.I am proud to be an American. I am proud to be an honorary member of the Seminole tribe,which never surrendered to the "conquerors." If you'd like to hear the story of how _that_ came about,I'd be glad to tell you.

 I'm proud to be a "mongrel!"


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## Roberson (May 27, 2010)

earl said:


> ''why does everyone always go on about what "Christians" did to Indians? ''
> 
> I'm sure we would all be interested to hear you refute the fact that it happened. The results are still affecting Native Americans today . The plethore of treaties written by the God fearing honest Christians still are not honored .



I'm not refuting anything, earl. all I am saying is that there are two sides to this. Are YOU refuting the fact that horrible torture by Natives never happened? The fact is that they (Indians) were met by a far more advanced society who arrived here and found  a stone-age people who were still living as they had for thousands of years without advancing. This will make me unpopular, of course, but it is the truth. BUT, just because Europeans were more advanced, this doesn't mean they were "better" people. I am sick of this "wicked white people" and "poor Indian"  nonsense. If you think they were angels,you shoulda went into battle against them.


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## loki (May 28, 2010)

The fact???

The record of those tribes who were so skilled at such horrific acts were written as fact by whom????

Like roasting one alive over a fire or did you mean burning at the stake???

Burying alive in hills of ants,staked out for the scavengers to slowly be eaten alive or tying people up and letting die a slow, painful death in the blazing sun.
Did you mean the Crusades or were you speaking of the Norsemen who followed Odin,Skel,Thor, Baldur, and Vali. 

Or maybe it was the talents that were perfected in western Europe(Spain) in the time frame of 1478-1834?

History is written by the Victors.

How do you think the you make a conquest look righteous?
You make the people you just defeated into sub-human by portraying the people as a whole as without any humanity.
You use the actions of a few of the defeated to galvanize your people as a whole against the defeated as a whole.(populace support of the action).

GC,
Your kin had as much to do against the indigenous people of the southeast as mine did killing Cavalry troops in Dakota territory.
I know for fact that my kin did take part in many actions against the Long-Knives but that is history.
My grandpa flew F-105's in Viet-Nam dropping ordinance,my Pa looked men in the eye when sending them to the afterlife and I have seen men breathe there  last breath by my own hand.

Certain actions do not define a people because of the actions of a few.


rick


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## christianhunter (May 28, 2010)

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DsMQbedCZj0&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DsMQbedCZj0&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


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## Roberson (May 28, 2010)

balvarik said:


> One who defines a people(town,county,state,region,nation)by the actions of but a small percentage of those people has bought into the idea's that "a action taken was justifiable against the entire peoples because  of the actions of a few.
> 
> My own actions would be viewed as horrific and used to rally a peoples against what would be termed savagery.
> 
> ...



You are correct, sir concerning the idea that judging a people as a whole on the actions of a few is wrong. Christians are judged this way all the time, we are used to it.  But people always seem to have the idea that we (Whites) came here and pushed out all the "Natives" when in fact stronger, more advanced indian tribes had been "pushing out" weaker tribes since the dawn of man in America.


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## Nicodemus (May 28, 2010)

balvarik said:


> Sir,
> Could you please explain what is required by each tribe for membership?
> There are DNA test's out that sequence the strand that is unique to the indigenous to the North American peoples.
> 
> ...




Very good post, Mike. I hope that you are doin` better.


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## Capt Quirk (May 28, 2010)

1/4 Indian is just believable as African American, when they haven't touched African soil in well over 100 years.


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 28, 2010)

Glad to see you posting again Mike. I hope you are doing better.


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## Roberson (May 28, 2010)

you'd be surprised what's in most peoples bloodline from ages ago. We probably ALL have indian, black, whatever, in our blood from SOMEWHERE, way back. Also, He didn't claim to be an Indian, HE SAID HE WAS MOSTLY WHITE.


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## Roberson (May 28, 2010)

balvarik said:


> My dear Sir,
> What you are describing is "evolution"(A gradual process in which something changes into a different and usually more complex or better form)!
> 
> Survival of the fittest.
> ...


No, it's not "evolution", it's not one tribe evolving,it's one tribe getting whipped by another due to the other tribe being bigger, badder, and more advanced. "Evolve" is what some of the tribes SHOULD have done to compete and survive.

alot of the tribes stayed the same for thousands of years, this was their downfall.


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 28, 2010)

Gatorcountry said:


> No, it's not "evolution", it's not one tribe evolving,it's one tribe getting whipped by another due to the other tribe being bigger, badder, and more advanced. "Evolve" is what some of the tribes SHOULD have done to compete and survive.
> 
> alot of the tribes stayed the same for thousands of years, this was their downfall.


 
 People, just as similar species forced into extreme conditions, do evolve, it is normally referred to as genetic adaptation, but it is an evolution none the less.


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## Nicodemus (May 28, 2010)

Gatorcountry said:


> No, it's not "evolution", it's not one tribe evolving,it's one tribe getting whipped by another due to the other tribe being bigger, badder, and more advanced. "Evolve" is what some of the tribes SHOULD have done to compete and survive.
> 
> alot of the tribes stayed the same for thousands of years, this was their downfall.



Now you`re into something I know a little bit about. It wasn`t so much about evolution. It was about access to European traders. In particular, the ones who were willin` to trade for weapons.


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## Roberson (May 28, 2010)

Nicodemus said:


> Now you`re into something I know a little bit about. It wasn`t so much about evolution. It was about access to European traders. In particular, the ones who were willin` to trade for weapons.



weapons, and firewater. Whiskey was introduced to injuns by whites,  and that's all she wrote.


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## 686wheelman (May 28, 2010)

Capt Quirk said:


> 1/4 Indian is just believable as African American, when they haven't touched African soil in well over 100 years.



i'm with you on that! I think most whites that have what they perceive to be "native american" traits actually have black in their ancestry or hispanic. the just don't want to admit it.


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## Capt Quirk (May 28, 2010)

You got the wrong idea, they are born here, and are of Indian descent. That makes them Native by heritage and birth.


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## Roberson (May 28, 2010)

balvarik said:


> bubonic plague
> chicken pox
> cholera
> influenza
> ...


Yes, the list goes on and on. Them ol' evil white people!  But seriously, do you think indians were all clean and disease-free? i have read firsthand accounts on the condition of alot of Indian villages, and it's not the utopian paradise most people have images of.  It wasn't that whites gave indians all the above diseases, just that we had already developed immunities, but the diseases were new to the Indians, who had no defenses for them. 
How did the thread come to this, anyway?


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## earl (May 28, 2010)

''How did the thread come to this, anyway?''

Attitudes of superiority like yours.


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## aniwayah (May 28, 2010)

I never said I was all native I just choose to worship the way I see fit and had my thread hijacked. I never said anything to offend anyone. I asked a simple question to try to find anyone who sees things as I do. If you do not like the way i live my life you should have stayed out of this. I was only looking for more like minded folks. And there are more of us then you think. And with every bash it concretes my life style in my mind. I never bashed Christians so to me your actions and words tell the story. Thank you and goodbye.


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## Roberson (May 28, 2010)

balvarik said:


> Guess I can have my son take me outside and about the area where WE LIVE.
> My home is the White Earth Reservation,Minnesota.
> You want evil?
> Then pray tell when were the people of the tribes granted the right to vote?
> ...


I knew we were evil! why would you live in a country where the majority are "evil" white people bent on destroying all traces of indegenious people? You ARE close to Canada, huh?


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## slip (May 29, 2010)

Gatorcountry said:


> I knew we were evil! why would you live in a country where the majority are "evil" white people bent on destroying all traces of indegenious people? You ARE close to Canada, huh?



how about giving this veteran a little respect and not questioning why he lives in the country he has fought for...


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 29, 2010)

balvarik said:


> What is strange is how one can toss out how bad the living conditions of the tribes were,how they excelled at savagery in warfare and how they showed no quarter towards to all who stood before them to include women and children.
> 
> But when that same light is shown on the peoples who pushed their way into the natives land,people get all kinds of defensive and lose that ability to see things with open eyes.
> 
> ...


 
And some of us appreciate you and your familiy's service to this great nation more than you know. I hope you have a great weekend Mike, and Thank You again and your generations for your service. For were it not for men like you and Rick and your dad and grandfather we might not have the freedom to interact in such discussions.


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## aniyunwaya (May 29, 2010)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> And some of us appreciate you and your familiy's service to this great nation more than you know. I hope you have a great weekend Mike, and Thank You again and your generations for your service. For were it not for men like you and Rick and your dad and grandfather we might not have the freedom to interact in such discussions.



    " WAH DO " ( thank you)


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 29, 2010)

I'm pretty sure there could have been a better way to word that..


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## crackerdave (May 29, 2010)

Glad to see you posting,Mike! I was hoping you'd give your input on this one. Just goes to show: You can't keep a good man down!


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## Roberson (May 29, 2010)

balvarik said:


> I'm sure he meant well and is quite adamant on the horror's of the Red Man killing innocent women and children.
> When women and children would have brought more as trade goods instead of killing but I guess all the information gotten from watching John Ford movies is all fact.
> 
> Not to worry as Leg MP's are quite useful and needed.
> ...



So, are you saying it's alright to use women and young girls as barter? The only thing I am adamant about is giving BOTH sides of the story. And yes, history is written by the victors, they fought for and deserve it. If indians would have "won"  they could have written it.  You need to know someone before judging them, as for the quote about old movies, I hardly ever watch t.v., but I do read alot and study American history. And yes, M.P.'s are "quite useful", I personally have had friends killed protecting troops in Iraq. But, for the sake of ending this, I'll forfeit this battle and concede the victory to you, this has gotten quite stale.


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## Miguel Cervantes (May 29, 2010)

Gatorcountry said:


> this has gotten quite stale.


 
Finally, an agreeable point.


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## gtparts (Jun 8, 2010)

I managed to stay out of this one..... till now. 

I really have no burning interest in most  native American theologies, though I do appreciate the other cultural aspects of the various groups.

But this came to me in an e-mail and expressed a truth that transcends most religions and aligns with the philosophy of many people of character and integrity, religious or not.

I cannot vouch for the origin, so I will just present as received.


One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside people.
He said, "My son, the battle is between two wolves inside us all.

"One is Evil -  It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.

"The other is Good -  It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith."

The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: "Which wolf wins?"

The old Cherokee simply replied, "The one you feed."


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## thedeacon (Jun 8, 2010)

gtparts said:


> I managed to stay out of this one..... till now.
> 
> I really have no burning interest in most  native American theologies, though I do appreciate the other cultural aspects of the various groups.
> 
> ...



Very Good


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## Paymaster (Jun 9, 2010)

OK, I have cleaned as much as I can. Lets get back on topic and leave the personal crap out. My apologies to the OP. Debate the evils in and of history in another thread.


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## slip (Jun 9, 2010)

gtparts said:


> I managed to stay out of this one..... till now.
> 
> I really have no burning interest in most  native American theologies, though I do appreciate the other cultural aspects of the various groups.
> 
> ...



i like that.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 9, 2010)

Paymaster said:


> OK, I have cleaned as much as I can. Lets get back on topic and leave the personal crap out. My apologies to the OP. Debate the evils in and of history in another thread.


thank you..


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## thedeacon (Jun 9, 2010)

aniwayah said:


> Does anyone here study or practice any form of native american religion? We talked about it some at work today and it got me to wondering.



I think this thread has gone south as far as staying on the subject.

No I don't practice or study any form of native american religion. But, this thread has truly got me to thinking.

I know that I come from a native american background and so does my wife but I am not sure how. 

My mothers maiden name was "ENFINGER" , my wife's maiden is "BAREFOOT". 

It's a shame I don't know more about that side of my family when I can trace the white back to the 1700's where my uncle matthew about twenty times removed married an indian princess, because he was a translator not because he wanted her. A trade so to speak

Back to the subject. 

I hear all the time how the early settlers came to america for relilgious freedom but they scorned the native americans for theirs, when in truth they were practicing practically the same thing except in a differant way.

They were doing what they could. They should have been a mission field but instead they were labled savages because they fought tooth and nail to keep there land and their homes.

Thats what people do. How much better were they treated than the Jews in Germany. Some  but not much and they were hated just as bad.

I think this thread has covered grounds way beyond what it was intended to do but it has done one thing for me.

I need to study my history just a little more. I would love to find out more about their religious practices. Any suggestions?

I have a friend who was a missionary to the Navaho in New Mexico and he said it was the most  enlightning experience he has ever had.

As I listen to all the opinions, I laugh, I sigh, sometimes I want to cry, but I realize that this country would have never gotten off to a country at all without the goodness of the American Indians and there religious beliefs.

World war 11 would have lasted much longer with out the American Indians, and their religious belief's.

Louis and Clark would have been killed before they crossed half of this country without the help of native americans. 

They were very religious and I am sorry I don't know more about my ancestors. I don't even know what tribe.

I don't know if they were wrong or right in their belief's but I do know they were doing what they could under the circumstanses.

FOR THE NATIVE AMERICANS ON HERE I WOULD LIKE TO SAY THANK YOU FOR THE SERVICE YOU HAVE GIVEN TO THIS COUNTRY. YOU ARE THE UNSUNG  (HERO'S) IN THIS COUNTRY.

God bless you and your families.


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## aniyunwaya (Jun 10, 2010)

Thank you for your kind posting!!!!


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## Kawaliga (Jun 10, 2010)

*Native Religion*



balvarik said:


> Sir,
> Could you please explain what is required by each tribe for membership?
> There are DNA test's out that sequence the strand that is unique to the indigenous to the North American peoples.
> 
> ...



I would think you would know what most Federal Tribes require for inclusion. Most if not all require you to have a lineal ancestor that was registered on the Dawes list. I can genealogically prove my ancestor was a Muscogee Creek, but since none of her descendants are on the Dawes, none of my family are wanted. As far as "racial superiority" goes, if you don't have "the look", ie. black hair or dark skin, you will be met with disdain, and labeled a "wannabe" by most card carrying tribal members. I was in the 1st. Infantry Division in Vietnam, and had a fullblood Seminole squad leader from Oklahoma. When I told him about my Creek Great Grandma, he laughed me to scorn. He didn't laugh when he needed my M-60 in battle, and by the way, this mostly white guy has ancestors from the Revolutionary War, War of Northern Aggression, WWII, Vietnam, and my son was a Marine in Afghanistan. One part of me is proud of my Creek ancestors, but I do get a bit tired of the snotty nosed attitude of some CDIB carriers. As far as what the "Evil White Man" did to the poor Indians, the white part of me was not around in the 1700's or during the Removal of the Creeks, nor was any other white person alive today.


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## earl (Jun 10, 2010)

Do you practice native religion ? I would still like to hear from y'll. I know I can read it on the web, but thats not always right . Now that Paymaster cleaned up the thread it will sty on track a little better .


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## earl (Jun 10, 2010)

PM sent to the appropriate party . Perhaps a new cleaning is in order.


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## earl (Jun 10, 2010)

Keep the info flowing folks.


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## crackerdave (Jun 11, 2010)

thedeacon said:


> I think this thread has gone south as far as staying on the subject.
> No I don't practice or study any form of native american religion. But, this thread has truly got me to thinking.
> 
> I know that I come from a native american background and so does my wife but I am not sure how.
> ...



Deacon,only the political forum can give this one a run for th' money when it comes to straying off-topic!


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 12, 2010)

balvarik said:


> Tribal membership is determined by tribal laws and may or may not require a CDIB or may require a separate tribal determination of ancestry or blood degree.


 
That is interesting info Mike.


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## crackerdave (Jun 12, 2010)

This much I'm sure of:  As a descendant of European invaders/terrorists/jihadists,I have no right to criticize _ANY_ religion.


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## crackerdave (Jun 12, 2010)

balvarik said:


> Dave,
> One of the most important fundamentals of this country is it's "Freedom of Religion"!
> 
> In the United States, freedom of religion is a constitutionally guaranteed right provided in the religion clauses of the First Amendment.
> ...




Amen,brother! I agree 100%. 

Every person makes his/her own choice,and will live eternally with that choice.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 12, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> Amen,brother! I agree 100%.
> 
> Every person makes his/her own choice,and will live eternally with that choice.


 
x2


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