# Jehovah Witnesses



## Tom Borck (Sep 11, 2004)

Are there any on board?  I tell you what these people are dedicated and commited to spreading their religion, I say their religion because I am not JW.

Funny thing, they come to my door 3-4 times a year and I have never had a Baptist, Catholic, Jew, etc... come to my door preaching and spreading their religion?  Wonder why?   :


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## hpurvis (Sep 11, 2004)

They are dedicated for sure.


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## Ga-Spur (Sep 11, 2004)

Huntin Tom can you tell us why we only have visits from JW.


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## Timberman (Sep 11, 2004)

I have one that works for me. When he was interviewing, he said he was a JW and asked if that would be a problem. I said no, we have Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, and a few more in our organization and as long as your religious preference is left at home and not imposed on anybody, I do not care. 

He is one of my best employees and has some of the brightest, well mannered, hard working children I've seen as well as a beautiful and very sweet wife. 

I don't know much about their worship, and it has never been mentioned around the workplace, but from my standpoint it seems to work for him, and I'm ok with that.


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## dave (Sep 11, 2004)

*That's a wild one*

Per their beliefs, only 144,000 will make it to heaven, period. They're over the top for me.


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## CAL (Sep 12, 2004)

With out a doubt their belief is very strong.They also practice their belief too.
Being a southern baptist by birth,it is hard for me to accept that the Christ Child wasn't born at Christmas.This they donot celebrate and they also believe the grave is h--l and reserection day is when you will leave the grave or stay there.
At one time I subscribed to "The Watchtower".This is a religious publication they publish.I stopped reading it when it was so obvious that a lot of their teaching seemed to me to contradict what is written in "The Holy Bible".I know we all remember Jesus telling the thief on the cross"today you will be with me in Paradise".He never mentioned the grave!Jesus also said you will transcend with the blink of and eye at death.
Don't anyone misunderstand what I have posted.I am only stating what I think and what I believe and I am not being critical of their religion or anyone elses either.
Just what I personally believe!


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## tgroves (Sep 12, 2004)

I had a friend and co-worker who was a JW and she had told us that if you were not really interested in learning about their religion when you had a visit from one of their members do not accept their offer of the free literature.  She said that they consider that an invitation to come back and talk to you further about their beliefs.  
Teresa


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## DanSmith (Sep 12, 2004)

*witness.*

I had 1 work with me.He told me that if his wife or child needed a transfusion to save there life -- they would have to DIE ! HE IS a draft dodger -they nearlly all are!!.he said witnesses can't take lives .He runs a buisness (painting) has nothing to do with religion -- pays no taxes -he claimes to be a preacher .Found out that all the members in nis pod are preachers so as not to pay taxes or serve.. amd his painting is a church buisness, tax exempt.(crook). BUT he collects money from the govt. each month ..1 child has a disability!  every one has the right to worship in this country. BUT , I think it also should be my right to NOT If I want also! ,These religion morons (jahova witnesses). "NOW" stay off my porch NEVER EVER stick papers in my door . I had to run them off with my shot gun!! NO KIDDING I was MAD!! I guess they are NOT ready to DIE ! because I JUST ABOUT POPPED 1 ! they ran & not come back! .  CAL - On tv this morning the question WAS -can babtist christions go to heavan? ANSWER = NO!! Only christians. the guy said that you MUST be ?non denominational? And have a NON PAYED revernd .. IF not you all will burn!!


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## one_shot_no_mor (Sep 12, 2004)

*Funny Story...*

MANY years ago when I was serving on submarines in the Navy, I came home after a six month deployment.  I had only been home two days.  While lounging on the couch enjoying the beverage of my choice, the doorbell rang.  IMMEDIATELY, my wife ushered all the kids into the back bedroom and instructed them to be quiet.   : 

A bit confused, I asked what she was doing and why she didn't answer the door (it's a Submarine thing...the woman MUST remain in charge for at least a week after the man returns from deployment...)  

She told me that it was Jehovah's Witnesses.  They had been coming by every Sunday for the past few weeks.  She said that if we just sat quietly for a few minutes they would go away. 

I was FURIOUS!    I told her I refused to be a prisoner in my home and proceeded to the door.  I opened the door and invited the two nice ladies in to talk...COMPLETELY NAKED!!!!! ut: 

They declined my offer and we were never bothered again...


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## Dough (Sep 12, 2004)

*Military Service*

I was told they won't serve in the military because they cannot "kill" another human and the US Gov't is of the devil, and by being employed by the Gov't, I was working for the devil.  I was active duty at the time, and had just returned from Desert Storm.

I told them that the same Constitution that allows them to go door to door in  my country is the SAME Constitution that I defended Every day, not just weekends, when they were out and about inmy neighborhood.

Then I explained that I considered them a threat to me and my family and they had until I got my shotgun to leave my property!

Jesus died so ALL might have a way to the Father, not just the chosed 144,000.  Also, what happens if heaven is ful of the 144K when they die?  Is there no room at the Inn?  Or do they kick someoneelse out to make room for the do gooder (or did better?)


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## Buckbuster (Sep 12, 2004)

They are a cult. That is fact.


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## Tom Borck (Sep 12, 2004)

Well, one came by this past Saturday during lunch.  I kindly told them that I was eating lunch.  They handed me their literature and left. 

Maybe next time I will answer the door naked! :speechles   And then they will never come back. ut:


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## Mechanicaldawg (Sep 12, 2004)

We discussed this very subject this morning at church!

There is only one religon that believes that the gift of eternal salvation is a gift that man can not earn. Christainity.

All the other religions are based on mortal man doing something, working his way to heaven.

God doesn't need us to "do" anything for Him! All He wants is for us to have a loving relationship with Him. It was for this reason that He created us.

JW's believe that you have to work your way into to becoming one of the 144,000. In other words they are working to replace their ancestors on the list?!?! :


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## Arrowslinger (Sep 12, 2004)

As far as people go Jehovah's Witness's are like the rest of us they have good and bad but the JW's I've met and work with are the nicest people around the kind of people you want as neighbors. Their religious beliefs in my humble opinion are wacko and as quickly as I can run them off my porch on saturday morning the better.

Can anyone explain who started their religion wrote their bible ETC just out of curiosity.


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 12, 2004)

The primary reason they are so dedicated to the door to door evangelism is that it is a requirement.  Personally, my advice to anyone (not extensively biblically taught) would be not to engage them in theological discussion, you'll be pummeled.

While they publically proclaim to be Christian, one would need to investigate their doctrinal beliefs to see that it actually contradicts traditional Christian beliefs.  Some of these beliefs are:

1.  Watchtower literature is considered to be more authoritive than the Bible.  In this, they consider the watchtower to be the only authority to provide biblical interpretation; so instead of reading and studying the Bible, they rely on watchtower literature to tell them what the Bible says.

2.  The JW's deny the diety of Christ, that Christ was not God in the flesh.

3.  In light of #2, the Trinity is denied.

4.  The Holy Spirit is considered an impersonal "force".

5. Salvation is achieved by works.  These works are exemplified in their aggressive evangelical efforts (which can actually be admired if the efforts were motivated by love of Christ).

6.  Heaven is reserved for a selected few (144,000).

These are just 6 basic JW beliefs.  There are many others and the above examples can be discussed at great length.  If you intend to witness to a JW, be prepared;  remember Ephesians, put on the full armor of God; pray, pray, and pray some more; Study, study, and study some more (learn what they believe so that you know what to study);  in conversation, only the Bible is to be used; demonstrate love and respect (everyone one of us is a child of God).


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## Throwback (Sep 12, 2004)

Go to this link to learn more about this cult....

http://www.carm.org/witnesses.htm


Throwback


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 13, 2004)

As David Mills said earlier in this thread, the reason they go door-to-door is because they are fulfilling a requirement.   Working their way into salvation.   

I actually get involved in their home studies.   At their home though, since my wife doesn't want them in our house.  LOL    But, let me add, you have to know both your beliefs and theirs inside and out.    When dealing with them you need to be able to debate them with THEIR OWN bible....the New World Translation.    

A number of years ago their Awake magazine always carried this phrase at the bottom of page 4..."This magazine serves to build confidence in the Creator's promise of a peaceful and secure new world before the generation that saw the events of 1914 passes away".     I told the Witness that I was studying with..."Let me prophecy something to you....The Watchtower folks will change that statement in your lifetime!  And when they do, you will believe whatever they say as the reason!".     I was subscribing to their Awake at the time and I kid you not it wasn't two months later that they changed it!    I went by the guys house and asked him..."Well.....what did they say????"    Then I paid him for some literature that I had bought, laughed, and left.    

I agree though, the one witness I worked with before was an awesome representative of their 'cult'.    She was hard working, pleasant....never ever saw her lose her temper.    

Ask any JW's you know if they know about '1975'....     

Bandy


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## dbodkin (Sep 14, 2004)

Must have lived too far out for them.... Never had one on my front stoop...


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## Woodsong (Sep 14, 2004)

BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> Ask any JW's you know if they know about '1975'....
> 
> Bandy



LOL


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## GeauxLSU (Sep 14, 2004)

*Learning more everyday.*

You know, I will never (hopefully) blast someone's denominations.  According to a poll I posted there is at least on Mormon amongst us.  I am very intersted in other people's perspectives.  But this thread has caused me to do a little homework.  I read a recount here http://www.exmormon.org, (In particular it was this one http://www.exmormon.org/exjw3.htm) .  It was most disturbing and actually very sad.  I know there are websites denouncing EVERY known religious denomination or affiliation (I'm Catholic, which in no uncertain terms is called the 'anti-Christ' by some websites) but to live in paralyzing fear due to loving and serving the Lord is so sadly ironic to me.  
I have NEVER had a witness knock on my door.  I guess I'd simply politely tell them since seating is limited, I would not want to take their seat in heaven.  
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## robema31 (Sep 14, 2004)

*Jw*

Guys, like David said, the one thing that sets them apart is that they tell you that you can only be saved through Jesus. The problem is that they do not believe He was God manifest. If this is the case then that would make Jesus a liar.

I don't know about you guys, but I ain't about to buy into any philosophy of calling Jesus a liar. They can keep their cult, alot of people say Jim Jones was a nice man too!!!


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## Woodsong (Sep 14, 2004)

Phil, 
The difference is that they are not a "denomination."  I spent a LOT of time researching controlling groups that use the bible and I assure you JW is one of those groups.  I say that but I will also say that some of the most sincere believers I have met were JW.  I love talkng about the Bible with them, I even have a copy of their New World translation for reference.  

It has been my overwhelming experience that the greatest disciples are those in groups like the JW.  THey put us "christians" to shame with the earnestness, their desire to love, etc.  Sadly, they are caught up in a system of man that is not preaching the truth.  From their foundings with Charles T. Russell, projected end times of 1914 and 1975, etc. etc. they are not preaching the word of God.

I used to somewhat live with a group of similar commitment.  In fact, below is a cut and paste of their "mission statement":

There is a people who woke up this morning with one thing on their minds — to love their Creator with all their heart, mind, and strength, and to love one another just as He loved them. He has won our hearts and brought us together as a people to demonstrate His love and care in the midst of a collapsing social order. Our hearts and homes are open night and day to any who are interested in our life or weary of their own futile existence, and want to know the purpose for which they were created.

Sounds great huh?? I WANT to be in a place like THAT!  Unfortunately, all that glitters is not gold.


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## Woodsong (Oct 11, 2004)

*they came!*

Looks like this thread was a primer for me to get ready.  Lo and behold, earlier in the week two JW came knocking on my door.  We had an entertaining discussion on the front porch.  I thought for sure I would not see them again, despite my being open and nice to them...they didn't seem to like my discussing how much their religious practice resembled that of other controlling religious groups.  I was wrong though...they came back to visit today.  

We'll see if they come again.  Time for me to brush up on my research of the facts as it has been a while since i have had to dive into these issues with them.  

I encourage you all that may ever meet JW's to express to them the sincere love of Jesus in your hearts.  All too often they are met with scorn, which only serves to further cement their beliefs that all are going to the devil but them.


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## edge (Oct 11, 2004)

It seems to me that all this threatening and posturing is not what is going to change these people's minds. Why should they even consider converting to Christianity if they are met with open hostility by these "Christians". 

My own brother was a JW for several years, while he was also in the ARMY.
He has since become a Christian. Keep in mind that while I may not have agreed with him, I did not denounce my own brother!

If you feel confortable with discussing your experience with Jesus with these folks, fine. If you don't, either brush up on your witness, or simply ask them to leave and not come back. Just my opinion...not worth much.

er


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## gordon 2 (Oct 11, 2004)

*I have invited them in.*

They came in a few times to discuss things, read scripture etc. One day I caught one of the senior members state to a younger one that I was weird. I just kept on being polite. I read all their phamplets with open mind. Invited them in whenever they came.

One day they came and asked to see me and as I was fixing my water pump, my mood was not the best and had my wife tell them I was too busy today.  They never came again. However, I especially took it as a great compliment to be called wierd. LOL


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## Dixie Dawg (Oct 11, 2004)

robema31 said:
			
		

> The problem is that they do not believe He was God manifest. If this is the case then that would make Jesus a liar.



I don't mean to sound dumb, but would you explain this statement if you don't mind? I'm a bit lost.... lol

Kerri


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## Dixie Dawg (Oct 11, 2004)

My mother was a JW when I was a kid, I actually remember going door to door with her in a yellow dress when I was 2 years old.  She left the group when my dad had an artery burst and he almost bled to death when I was 4, and they told her if she signed for him to have a blood transfusion they would excommunicate her.  She had been in distress anyway, going back and forth over wether or not Jesus was God in the flesh.  She was raised RLDS, then went to Catholicism, then JW and after that she studied alot of religions and basically said 'to heck with them all, I believe in God and that's enough for me."

Personally myself, I have gone somewhat the same path in 'finding my religion'.  My mother never went to church with us again, but always allowed us to go if we wanted to. I was baptised Southern Baptist when I was 16, then stopped going when I found out they didn't believe in dancing.  I've been to all kinds of churches... Methodist, Pentecostal, Baptist, Seventh Day Adventist, Catholic, Messianic, non-denominational, etc.  I've studied with Buddhists, Jews, Muslims and even Wiccans.  And after all of it, I have to say I agree with my mom.  I believe in God, and that's enough for me!!

The reason you won't ever see a Jew evangelist is because they don't need to.  They believe all paths of religion lead to God, therefore all humans will have a place in the world to come (heaven, to Christians).  They don't recruit people to join their religion because they believe even those religions that are 'wrong' to them (ie: believe God to be a man, or a cow, or etc. etc) still bring people to believe in the Creator.

If I had to pick a religion, it would probably be Judaism, even though I was raised Christian and have been baptised four times (don't ask... LOL!).  I studied for two years straight before I made my decision to leave Christianity and 'organized' religion, and it was the hardest thing I ever did.  But there were alot of factors and parts of the bible (Deut. chapter 4 for one!!) that didn't make sense to me, and I couldn't continue to stay the same.  I'm not Jewish and haven't converted, but I have to say my beliefs follow more with theirs than others.

I have nothing against any religion until it imposes on my beliefs.  I have all kinds of friends in all kinds of other religions, and I love them all no matter what they believe.

I love it when I get missionaries to my door.  Having studied the JW teachings, and having been a Mormon myself (briefly), I always invite them in and pull out my many bibles to discuss.  For some reason though, they never come back!!!!    :  

Kerri


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 13, 2004)

So Dixie Dawg, you think Jesus was just a man who is rotten in a grave somewhere?    

A 'yes' or 'no' will suffice....

Bandy


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## Throwback (Oct 13, 2004)

> I believe in God, and that's enough for me!!



But it's not about you, it's about God. 


T


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 14, 2004)

Dixie, 

What took you from believing that Jesus was God's son and rose from the dead to not believing that anymore?    (Since you stated that you tried Christianity, you would had to have believed this at one time)

Bandy


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## duckbill (Oct 14, 2004)

Dixie,  You claim that you welcome anyone in and pull out your many bibles.  You cannot possibly refer to the King James Version of the Holy Bible, because a good portion of the New Testament instructs the Jews to turn FROM Judaism.


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## edge (Oct 14, 2004)

Wall, Ya'll....you'uns ain't never gonna git nowhar a' arguin about politics or religion. And on Woody's, ye kin add baitin', high fence huntin' and black panthers to thet list.   Thet's just the way it is.


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## Dixie Dawg (Oct 22, 2004)

*Whew! Y'all have been busy on here! LOL*

Sorry I haven't been able to respond sooner, I had no idea there were even questions for me on this thread.  This is a busy time of year for me with my business, and I also have school full time, and I've been trying to hang out in a tree here and there when I can, so my time on here hasn't been as much as I'd like, sorry!

I'll try and skim a bit over some of your questions, but you'll have to be a bit patient because I loaned my book that I used for my studies to someone and they have not been nice enough to return it.

Yes, I used to believe in Jesus, believed he was God in the flesh, died for my sins, etc.  I don't believe that any longer.  I studied for two years, starting with the 'Old Testament'.  It came first, so I studied it first.  In it, I found that God specifically said He did not and would not appear in any form because He did not want anyone to make an image of Him, or worship it (Deut. 4).   I also found that every man has to pay for his own sin.  Moses asked God to give the Hebrew's punishment for the Golden Calf to him, and God said no, no man can take the punishment for another man's sin.  I also found that God said it was forbidden to eat or drink blood, that it was a sin.  Why then would God say to drink something 'as' Jesus' blood (communion)? That's like saying He wanted us to pretend or mimic a sin in order to worship?  There are also alot of messianic 'prophecies' that are not prophecies at all, but instead are verses taken out of context in the old testament to fit the theology of the new testament.  Isaiah 7:14 is a prime example of this.  Add on top of that mistranslations or omissions of words and it definitely leaves room for doubt.

What do I think Jesus was? Not really sure, to be honest.  It's hard to say anyway, because the first 'books' of the bible were written years after Jesus was crucified.  Then, the council of Nicea decided what books out of hundreds they were going to include in the New Testament.  That was a catholic council, and they decided.  What if they left out some of the books that should have been in there?  I guess my point is,  there is no way of knowing how much of what is in the new testament is truth and how much was built up as it was passed on from person to person.  Ever see the movie Braveheart? Where they're talking about William and the deeds he's accomplished... as the story is passed on, it goes from him killing 4 or 5 men to him killing hundreds singlehandedly... he becomes almost like a superhero.

I always had alot of questions about the bible but no one ever really answered them, they just said 'if you had more faith you wouldn't have these questions'.  Not a good enough answer!  Jesus was Jewish... the NT says he followed every letter of the Law (Torah).  He celebrated Passover, Hanukkah, Rosh Hashana, Yom Kippur... if we are supposed to be like Jesus, why don't Christians celebrate those also?  

I guess the main thing for me is that it just doesn't make sense.  God never said He was going to change the rules. He never said He was going to show up on earth as a man.  He said the Law (ALL 613 of the commandments, not just the first 10!) was for the House of Israel and the House of Judah, which are the Jews.  It wasn't meant for everyone, only to those it was given to.  

Jesus wasn't Christian... he was Jewish!  None of the apostles were Christian, they were Jewish!

I'm ok with the decision I've made now... I know that God knows what is in my heart and that I  have not walked away from Christianity in defiance of Him... but because I truly want to do what is right, and I don't believe worshipping a man is right.  I believe God is the ONLY one who can judge me because He is the ONLY one who knows what is in my heart... not anyone on this board, or anyone in any church, or anyone anywhere else in the world.

I certainly don't mean to start a major discussion/argument on here... like I said, I believe everyone is entitled to their own religion and what they want to believe as the truth.  And I'm thankful that I live in a country where we can all believe what we want!  I'm not going to tell anyone what they believe is wrong, because that's my opinion.  I just have decided it is wrong for me.

If anyone wants to reply to me, and if I don't answer right away, don't take it personally... I just have limited time on here but I will answer what I can! This has been an extreme Reader's Digest condensed version lol

Hugs!!!
Kerri


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## cpaboy (Oct 22, 2004)

Dixie, you are the only person I know who supposedly *really * dug into the bible and come out a non-believer.  I'm confused. : I'll be praying for you.


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## Dixie Dawg (Oct 22, 2004)

cpaboy said:
			
		

> Dixie, you are the only person I know who supposedly *really * dug into the bible and come out a non-believer.



I believe you   But then, probably most of the people you know are believers.  Funny thing is, when I started going through my 'journey', I would talk to people about my doubts, and the thing is, SO many people had the same doubts but were afraid to say anything!  They were afraid of getting the exact reaction I was getting from others in the church... chastisement for not having enough faith.  Chastisement for questioning the bible or doctrine in general.  In their eyes, chastisement for questioning God Himself.  But the truth is, there are a LOT (not ALL, but a LOT) of believers that are on the edge and the only thing keeping them there is the threat of going to ****.  They stay with something even if they aren't sure they truly believe it... just on the chance that **** is true.  Sad thing is, if what they are in IS true, those people are probably going to **** anyway because they don't 'truly' believe.  The new testament says this itself.

The TRUTH is, what I said before... ONLY God knows what is truly in each human's heart.  Only God knows each human's motives, each human's intent, each human's desire to serve Him.  Yes, I could go back to church and say I believe in Jesus again... but God knows my heart and knows that's not true.  No matter how much someone WANTS to believe in something, if they really don't believe it, how can that be helped?  It can be very confusing.

And I thank you for your prayers... I don't think anyone can have enough of those 

Blessings to you and yours!
Kerri


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## duckbill (Oct 22, 2004)

John 3
16   For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17   For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
*18   He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.*


Kerri,  You sound very intelligent and I am surely no match in a debate, but what do you believe verse 18 means?

Bill


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 24, 2004)

Dixie, I commend you for not being a 'fence rider'!   LOL    

Bill, if you are going to discuss religion with Dixie, you'll have to stick to the Old Testament!      I'd be curious to know Who Dixie thinks is being referred to in Isa 9:6....

Anyway Dixie, I appreciate your detailed reply...and for not getting defensive.    

Bandy


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## Vernon Holt (Oct 25, 2004)

Kerri: I have read your posts with considerable interest. Your journey in life has indeed been a unique one, if you don't mind my saying so.

Two passages of New Testament Scripture come to mind as a result of my having read your commentary:

That we [henceforth] be no more children, *tossed* *to* *and* *fro*, *and* carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [*and*] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait *to* deceive; Eph 4:14


Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and *blasphemy* shall be forgiven unto men: but *the* *blasphemy* [*against*] *the* [*Holy*] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. Matt 12:31

 I would be extremely interested in reading any commentary that you would offer on these two passages of scripture. Many thanks.

Vernon


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## Chuck C (Oct 29, 2004)

*Great thread!!!*

This is great!


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## Dixie Dawg (Oct 29, 2004)

Vernon Holt said:
			
		

> Kerri: I have read your posts with considerable interest. Your journey in life has indeed been a unique one, if you don't mind my saying so.
> 
> Two passages of New Testament Scripture come to mind as a result of my having read your commentary:
> 
> ...


 Hi Guys!
I have a few minutes, so I thought I'd go ahead and pop on here real quick so you didn't think I forgot about ya! 

You both pose good questions... the only problem is, in order to have a valid debate, we would both have to believe the same text is true.  What I'm saying is... if I don't believe in the New Testament, it does no good to show me what the New Testament says.  Let me see if I can explain myself a little better... if a Mormon came to your home and wanted to prove his beliefs were true,  and used quotes from the Book of Mormon to back his beliefs, would you accept them? Would you believe in Mormonism?  The answer is probably no, because you don't accept the Book of Mormon as doctrine from God.  Same thing applies when using the New Testament to prove the New Testament is true... you can't use the same book as proof of itself.

Christianity is based on the unique belief that Jesus was God's son, born of a virgin, sacrificed for the salvation of man. In reality, as sacrificed virgin-born Savior Son of God, Jesus was not unique.    There were many religions that believed in a similar diety. The story of Jesus followed the traditional model of the ancient pagan savior-gods.

At the time of Jesus and for centuries before, the world had many creeds, religions, and rituals.  Although the details varied depending on location and culture, the general outlines of these faiths were suprisingly similar.  Generally speaking, the gods of the ancients:
were born on or very near our Christmas day
were born of a virgin mother
were born in a cave or an underground chamber
led  a life of toil for mankind
were called by the names of Savior, Deliverer, Healer, Light-bringer, Mediator, etc.
were vanquished by the powers of darkness
descended into a 'poopooheadpoopooheadpoopooheadpoopoohead' or the underworld
rose from the dead and became the pioneers of mankind to the heavenly world
founded communions of saints and churches into which disciples were received by baptism
were commemorated by eucharistic meals

Krishna, Buddah, Horus and Osiris were all born of virgins.  The Teutonic goddess Hertha was a virgin impregnated by the 'heavenly spirit' and bore a son.  Scandinavia's Frigga was impregnated by the All-Father Odin and bor Balder, the healer and savior of mankind.

But the one I think is closest of all is Mithras. He was born in a cave, on December 25th of a virgin mother.  He came from heaven to be born as a man, to redeem men from their sins.  He was known as "Savior", "Son of God", "Redeemer", and "Lamb of God".  With twelve disciples, he traveled far and wide as a teacher and illuminator of men.  He was buried in a tomb from which he rose again from the dead- an event celebrated yearly with much rejoicing.  His followers kept the Sabbath holy, holding sacramental feasts in rememberance of him.  The sacred meal of bread and water, or bread and wine, was symbolic of the body and blood of the sacred bull.  The celebration of Christmas on December 25th was originally the pagan birthday of Mithras, the sun god, whose day of the week is still known as "Sunday".  The halo of light which is usually shown surrounding the face of Jesus and Christian saints, is another concept taken from the sun god.  The theme of temptation by a devil-like creature was also found in pagan mythology.  In particular, the story of Jesus' temptation by Satan resembles the temptation of Osiris by the devil-god Set in Egyptian mythology.

Any of these ancient gods can be looked up by doing a 'google search' for their name, you can see how similar they all are to each other and to Jesus.  I also have alot of websites saved from doing my own research, and alot of the information I just typed comes from them.  I would be happy to share with anyone who is interested.

I guess my point is, how do you know what you believe is true? Who's to say that those who believe in Mithras (and yes, there still is a practicing religion of Mithraism!) aren't right? Or those who believe in Buddah or Krishna?  It all boils down to what you personally believe.  If it is true to you, then it is true.  If you had been born Mormon, do you think someone could change your mind and get you to leave that faith? What if you had been born in China and were raised Buddhist, do you think someone could change your mind?

I'm definitely not out to change anyone elses' mind about what they believe.  If someone has questions and is truly searching, I will be glad to share what I  have learned and what caused me to leave religion in general, but I want them to first be sure they know what they're doing   If you are even the slightest bit insecure about your faith, you may not want to delve deeper into these questions, because I know first hand how it feels to have your faith shattered... it's worse than any divorce you can imagine.  But if you seriously have questions and want to learn more, I will be glad to help however I can.  I am not an expert by any means, but I have found access to alot of good information and would be happy to share it.

Love and blessings to all!!
Kerri


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## Dixie Dawg (Oct 29, 2004)

LOL Bandy! No reason to be defensive, I love discussing religion!

As for Isaiah 9:6... what translation would you like to discuss? 

Here is the verse as translated from the original Hebrew in my Art Scroll Tanakh:
Isaiah 9:5,6   "For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us, and the dominion will rest on his shoulder;  the Wondrous Adviser, Mighty God, Eternal Father, called his name Sar-shalom (Prince of Peace); (6) upon the one with the greatness in dominion and the boundless peace that will prevail on the throne of David and on his kingdom, to establish it and sustain it through justice and righteousness, from now to eternity.  The zealousness of Hashem, Master of Legions, will accomplish this!"

You will notice that the verb tense in the Hebrew translation is past-tense, not future as in the King James' bible.  That's because they are speaking of a child that was already born.  My belief (based on reading the previous chapters of Isaiah as well as the chapters following the verse, in other words, reading the verse in context) is the same as the Jewish belief, that this passage is speaking of King Hezekiah, who was Ahaz's son.  

There is a full explaination of Isaiah 9:5,6 at  http://www.messiahtruth.com/isa9.html  if you are interested in learning more about the translations from the original Hebrew.  It goes into great detail explaining each word and the tense and where it is used in the verse.  In fact, the whole website is very educational on the Old Testament and the translation differences.

Thanks for your post!! 

Love and blessings!!
Kerri


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## Dixie Dawg (Oct 29, 2004)

*Since we're on the subject...*

I wonder if I might pose a question or two to y'all now?  I assume that since it seems most on here are Christian, that we will both agree that the Old Testament is true.  I base these questions upon that common  foundation:

What do you think of this verse from Micah 6:7,8?
"Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? (8) He hath shown the, o man, what is good, and *what does the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to  love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God*?"

Why doesn't that verse say anything about God requiring you to believe in His only begotten son?  Or why doesn't it say that will be a requirement in the future?

Also, about sacrifices for sins... if God said this in Hosea 6:6 "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings"  and this in Jeremiah 7:22,23 "For I spoke not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices; (23) But this thing I commanded them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people; and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you"  and this in Hosea 14:2-3 – (2) Return, O Israel, to the Lord your God; for you have stumbled in your iniquity.  (3) Take words with you and return to the Lord; say to Him: "You shall forgive all iniquity, and accept the good, and we will render [for] bullocks [the offering of our] lips", then why does the Christian doctrine say that blood is the only atonement for sin?

If you'd care to discuss this in more detail, I'd be happy to... I'm sure we could start a whole new thread on it! 

Love and blessings!
Kerri


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## Dixie Dawg (Oct 29, 2004)

*One more question for today.... *

Who or what do you believe Satan (or the devil) is?

Kerri


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## coastga (Nov 1, 2004)

They believe that you make it to heaven based on works. That's the reason you see them witnessing so much. Years ago they taught that their were on 144,000 that was going to make it to heaven, since they are now over 3 million JWs they have changed their tune. JW is a spin off of the seventh day advent movement back in the mid 1800's. The Watch tower was formed in the late 1800's. They do not believe that Jesus is God. They teach he is an arch-angel. They do not believe Jesus died on a cross. They claim he died on a tree with both arms nailed above his head.

I love for them to come by my house because I eat their lunch. I had one come by my house three weeks ago, he left saying he was coming back to discuss the bible at more length---He never showed back up. Most of the time they leave my house very angry. I truley feel sorry for them because they have been decieved by an occult.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Nov 1, 2004)

King Hezekiah must've been a heck of a man to qualify for the 'eternal father' and 'mighty god' statements.   I'm no Old Testament expert by any means so you'll have to clue me in on Hezekiah's exploits.   What did he do that could be used to qualify him for fulfillment of the Isa 9:6 verse?   I could easily see how Jesus could if what is written about Him is true.  )

I've never talked with a Jew, or anyone who believed that way, so I'm gonna have to sit back and learn here.    

Bandy


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## Dixie Dawg (Nov 1, 2004)

BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> King Hezekiah must've been a heck of a man to qualify for the 'eternal father' and 'mighty god' statements.   I'm no Old Testament expert by any means so you'll have to clue me in on Hezekiah's exploits.   What did he do that could be used to qualify him for fulfillment of the Isa 9:6 verse?   I could easily see how Jesus could if what is written about Him is true.  )
> 
> I've never talked with a Jew, or anyone who believed that way, so I'm gonna have to sit back and learn here.
> 
> Bandy



Hi Bandy! 
The verse in the Hebrew Tanakh (Old Testament) says this:

"For a child has been born to us, a son has been given to us, and the dominion will rest on his shoulder; *the Wondrous Adviser, Mighty God, Eternal father, called his name Sar-Shalom (Prince of Peace);..."*

It is saying that the Wondrous Adviser, Mighty God, Eternal Father CALLED his name Sar-Shalom... meaning God is the one who called him Prince of Peace.  Those terms are describing God, not the child.  And King Hezekiah did do much to bring about peace to Israel... his works are written of in the Old Testament.  Does that make a bit more sense?  

Love and blessings!
Kerri


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## BANDERSNATCH (Nov 1, 2004)

Yep...makes sense now!     I misunderstood what you were saying about the verse.    

Do you believe that a Messiah is still to come?    If so, what are the prophecies that you believe describe the Messiah?     

Bandy


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## gordon 2 (Nov 1, 2004)

*The Gentiles.*

How could have the gentiles known the God of the Jews, if not through Jesus Saviour, and his deciples? Not via the Jewish culture, cause like many cultures, it was closed to others or to the infidels. How could the "blue eyes" have been brought into intimate communion with God? How could have my ancestors known of the "Spark" or "Spirit" which was available to the decendants of Abraham?  

It is not enough to have God in our minds, or make of his tennents recipe. God must be in our hearts if we are to have any meaningful relationship with Him. Jesus directs us to God in (our) hearts, to his grace, justice and passion. From emotional relationship we build our lives with others using intelectual capacity and our physical reality, not he other ways around.

For christians God has generally three aspects which is our struggle to contemplate Him and our obligations to each other.  The trinity involves the Father, which was Jesus' term for God ( the historical God of the Jews) and the Son is the christian's term for "God with us" as shareing our physical, spacial and  psychic realities and perceptions. And the Spirit! Well the Spirit is everything in my view. The Spirit is everthing we humans agree and disagree on. 

Through the Holy Spirit or "Spark", or the "In the Spirit", Jesus can term God "Father", and christians  Jesus a man as God.  And Christians can claim the Holy Spirit as an aspect or person of God. The Holy Spirit is on a human: emotional, intelectual and physical level with man. It is God's "HIM" as we know a lover or a very special someone. We know our spouse emotionally, physically and intellectually. The married comparison should be evident.

You can't understand Christ if you can't let go emotionally.  All the study and search will be in vane if you can't be a "man".  This man is a son, a dauther, a prophet, a father, mother, a businessman, a teacher, elderly, young etc. Man will think, and venture far, and then one day the will cry of loneliness until he is from thought and venture, set free.

Some men will deny the Spirit or Spark  and will deny God. Some men will say I am the Spirit and blaspheme. Some men will say "Father God, Father, Father" and others Jesus Lord, but they will know not the Spirit, nor his creation man.

I hope  I have not diverted the "crux" of the tread.


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## Dixie Dawg (Nov 1, 2004)

BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> Yep...makes sense now!     I misunderstood what you were saying about the verse.
> 
> Do you believe that a Messiah is still to come?    If so, what are the prophecies that you believe describe the Messiah?
> 
> Bandy




Hi Bandy!  Glad I make SOME sense occassionally 

Do I believe that a messiah is still to come? I do... I agree with the Jewish belief on this one.  The thing is, the word 'messiah' simply means 'anointed one'.  There have been many 'messiahs'.  King David, King Hezekiah, etc were messiah's.

Quick breakdown (for tonight, as I am short on time) on Messianic prophecies (including but not necessarily limited to):

1.       Arrival of Elijah the Prophet (e.g., Mal 3:23-24[4:5-6][2])

2.       Building the Third Temple in Jerusalem (e.g., Ezek 37:26-28)

3.       In-gathering of Jewish exiles to Israel (e.g., Is 11:12)

4.       Reunification of Judah and Israel into one people (e.g., Ezek 37:22)

5.       World peace (e.g., Is 2:4)

6.       Universal knowledge of G-d (e.g., Is 11:9)

7.       Resurrection of the dead (e.g., Is 26:19)

The Messiah will be a human being, 100%, no divinity, just an anointed human, as Moses, King David, King Hezekiah, etc. were.  There is even scripture that supports he will be married and have sons.  He will be a spiritual and military leader.  He will be a direct descendant of King David through King Solomon's lineage.

I will be happy to go into more detail on each of these... perhaps we could discuss one at a time if you'd like?  I should have more time tomorrow or Wednesday to go into some a bit more in depth... until then,

Love and blessings!
Kerri


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