# Is there a discussion about the blood moons?



## mtnwoman

Or is anyone interested in discussing the topic...I can't find what I'm looking for on the net.


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## rjcruiser

???

what about?  Scripture reference?  Sorry, not sure what you're looking for.


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## barryl

All I could find on the subject after John Hagee put out the book on the Blood Moons is the reference in Joel Ch. 2 or Acts 2:14-21(2nd Advent) in particular verse 20.


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## hobbs27

I found this on it..


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## mtnwoman

Someone ask me about it and I couldn't find anything about it either, just thought I was missing out on something. Thanks guys.


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## 1gr8bldr

Bethlehem star .net speaks about it. Now with computers, we can look foward to what will happen with the stars as well as look backwards. We can see what the sky looked like from a particular location from whatever date you pick. Amazing how they back it up and show what was going on at the birth of Jesus, Easter, etc. One of the most interesting views ever for me


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## mtnwoman

1gr8bldr said:


> Bethlehem star .net speaks about it. Now with computers, we can look foward to what will happen with the stars as well as look backwards. We can see what the sky looked like from a particular location from whatever date you pick. Amazing how they back it up and show what was going on at the birth of Jesus, Easter, etc. One of the most interesting views ever for me



Hey thanks!! I'll check it out. I love stuff like that, too!


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## rjcruiser

Well...there is prophecy about the moon being red as blood when Christ returns....maybe that is what they were talking about.

http://www.openbible.info/topics/the_red_moon

A link with some of the scripture references.


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## Artfuldodger

Revelation 6:12-14 
When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Joel 2:31 
The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.

Matthew 24:29
“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

Will the moon become like blood or become blood? Is all of this literal or figurative? If the stars fall from heaven, will they fall to the earth or all of the planets?
Could there be something happening on the earth that would give the appearance of these happenings?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Revelation 6:12-14
> When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood, and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale. The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
> 
> Joel 2:31
> The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.
> 
> Matthew 24:29
> “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
> 
> Will the moon become like blood or become blood? Is all of this literal or figurative? If the stars fall from heaven, will they fall to the earth or all of the planets?
> Could there be something happening on the earth that would give the appearance of these happenings?



This psalm is Davids way of describing how God delivered him from Saul....Do you think it is literal or figuritive?



4 The sorrows of death compassed me, and the floods of ungodly men made me afraid.

5 The sorrows of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.

6 In my distress I called upon the Lord, and cried unto my God: he heard my voice out of his temple, and my cry came before him, even into his ears.

7 Then the earth shook and trembled; the foundations also of the hills moved and were shaken, because he was wroth.

8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

9 He bowed the heavens also, and came down: and darkness was under his feet.

10 And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

11 He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.

12 At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.

13 The Lord also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.

14 Yea, he sent out his arrows, and scattered them; and he shot out lightnings, and discomfited them.

15 Then the channels of waters were seen, and the foundations of the world were discovered at thy rebuke, O Lord, at the blast of the breath of thy nostrils.

16 He sent from above, he took me, he drew me out of many waters.

17 He delivered me from my strong enemy, and from them which hated me: for they were too strong for me.


History of Edom:
The history books tell us that Edom did OK for perhaps a hundred years after their final warning from God’s prophets. Then, during the fifth century (400-499) B.C. the “Edomites” were overwhelmed by other Arab groups. In turn, these groups were taken over by the Nabataeans, who started living in the area sometime around 312 B.C. By the way, the Nabataeans, not the Edomites, are the people who cut the temples in the sandstone walls of Petra. Under the Nabataeans, the city of Petra flourished until 106 A.D., when the Romans conquered Petra. From that time it slid into disuse, to the point that Edom was almost uninhabited from the 7th to the 12th century A.D. It revived slightly in the 12th century when the crusaders built a castle there called Sel. Afterward, it remained so forgotten that it had to be rediscovered in 1812 by Swiss traveler Johann. L. Burckhardt.

the prophecy of its destruction sounds like all the world was going to be destroyed:

 Isaiah 34 Notice the exaggerated language in the first 10 verses...Literal?

Draw near, O nations, to hear; and listen, O peoples!
Let the earth and all it contains hear, and the world and all that springs from it.
2 For the Lord’s indignation is against all the nations,
And His wrath against all their armies;
He has utterly destroyed them,
He has given them over to slaughter.
3 So their slain will be thrown out,
And their corpses will give off their stench,
And the mountains will be drenched with their blood.
4 And all the host of heaven will wear away,
And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll;
All their hosts will also wither away
As a leaf withers from the vine,
Or as one withers from the fig tree.
5 For My sword is satiated in heaven,
Behold it shall descend for judgment upon Edom
And upon the people whom I have devoted to destruction.
6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood,
It is sated with fat, with the blood of lambs and goats,
With the fat of the kidneys of rams.
For the Lord has a sacrifice in Bozrah
And a great slaughter in the land of Edom.
7 Wild oxen will also fall with them
And young bulls with strong ones;
Thus their land will be soaked with blood,
And their dust become greasy with fat.
8 For the Lord has a day of vengeance,
A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch,
And its loose earth into brimstone,
And its land will become burning pitch.
10 It will not be quenched night or day;
Its smoke will go up forever.
From generation to generation it will be desolate;

 Wow thats some serious stuff huh?  But notice some things do survive ..thorns, hedgehog, pelicans, bedoins..how could this be if it were literal?

But pelican and hedgehog will possess it,
And owl and raven will dwell in it;
And He will stretch over it the line of desolation
And the plumb line of emptiness.
12 Its nobles—there is no one there
Whom they may proclaim king—
And all its princes will be nothing.
13 Thorns will come up in its fortified towers,
Nettles and thistles in its fortified cities;
It will also be a haunt of jackals
And an abode of ostriches.
14 The desert creatures will meet with the wolves,
The hairy goat also will cry to its kind;
Yes, the night monster will settle there
And will find herself a resting place.
15 The tree snake will make its nest and lay eggs there,
And it will hatch and gather them under its protection.
Yes, the hawks will be gathered there,
Every one with its kind.

Any time the bible is talking about a coming of the Lord as in judgement the language is Apocalyptic...Just as the language used in the coming of Christ in judgement upon babylon( Jerusalem)  in the last days, 70ad.


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## Artfuldodger

Hobbs, that's interesting comparisons. Is Apocalyptic language a form of poetry or just used in poetry?
Why was this Apocalyptic language used to describe these events?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs, that's interesting comparisons. Is Apocalyptic language a form of poetry or just used in poetry?
> Why was this Apocalyptic language used to describe these events?



It is cultural, and I think they were adding  a lot of adjectives just to show the awesomeness of God!

 Do you see now why following a strictly literal interpretation of the bible concerning the end times is not only ignorant , but dangerous to teach? Our time and culture does not understand the language , and for years we have been using it to scare people, which is not Gods intent!

 Why else would the first century church been awaiting the coming of Christ so eagerly?  Do you think they wanted all earth to be consumed with fire and brimstone? I don't, I think they were awaiting for the final end to the curse of death (spiritual) and looking for the ushering in of eternal life....this is why Thessalonians 4 was written to the church in Thessalonica . The church wasn't worried about those that died years ago, but those that died recently in Christ.


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## hobbs27




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## Jeffriesw

hobbs27 said:


> View attachment 823180


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## hobbs27

Here's a very good article on the subject...BTW If Im not mistaken Hagees prophecy will have suppose to have come true by Sept this year, so when it doesn't are we as Christians going to hold him accountable?  Prob not.

http://americanvision.org/10106/blood-moons-bible-prophecy-integrity-bible/


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## Lowjack

https://theextinctionprotocol.wordp...kends-blood-moon-herald-the-end-of-the-world/


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## Flash

hobbs27 said:


> Here's a very good article on the subject...BTW If Im not mistaken Hagees prophecy will have suppose to have come true by Sept this year, so when it doesn't are we as Christians going to hold him accountable?  Prob not.
> 
> http://americanvision.org/10106/blood-moons-bible-prophecy-integrity-bible/



 Anyone know what Hagee is saying will happen??    I've been listening to some about it but not too far along.  

  From what I understand: there have only been 4 blood moons (in a certain period of time) that occur on a Jewish festival day.   Each time they do, something "big" happens concerning the Jews.   This yr, sometime in Sep, will be the last.


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## hobbs27

Flash said:


> Anyone know what Hagee is saying will happen?? I've been listening to some about it but not too far along.
> 
> From what I understand: there have only been 4 blood moons (in a certain period of time) that occur on a Jewish festival day. Each time they do, something "big" happens concerning the Jews. This yr, sometime in Sep, will be the last.


 
Here's what they are saying...


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## Flash

hobbs27 said:


> I found this on it..



  Not defending Hagee, but has he said all that this video said that he has???  I did notice that he had books to sell too.  



hobbs27 said:


> Here's what they are saying...



  Hadn't seen that one.  I do believe that America will fall, how soon I have no idea. 

 Hobbs27 Thanks for sharing the videos.


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## hobbs27

Just in time for the end of the latest false prediction..


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## hobbs27

Very good article on the subject here:
http://americanvision.org/12370/the-shemitah-myths-exposed-a-free-report-from-american-vision/


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## Beartrkkr

hobbs27 said:


> Just in time for the end of the latest false prediction..



OK that was funny.


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## hobbs27

I don't know if it was the cloud cover that saved us or what, but John Hagee is officially a false prophet!


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I don't know if it was the cloud cover that saved us or what, but John Hagee is officially a false prophet!



Careful.
They said the same thing about Noah.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Careful.
> They said the same thing about Noah.



I have lost count of how many end time dates I have survived just in my 43 years of life.

Here is why I feel comfortable knowing it' s a hoax...other than the fact that all 4 blood moons have come with no event.

1. The rapture is an easily disputed ideology. The parable of the wheat and tares is all one needs to look at to know the church will not be taken out of this world first.

2. Jesus told His disciples the hour and day no man knows, not even Him but the Father only. John Hagee is not the Father.
 Jesus also said His coming in which He didn't know the hour or the day, would come in that generation of the people He was speaking to, and He told them it would happen before the disciples could finish going through the cities of Israel.
 I will hang on to the words of Jesus over John Hagee and not have any worries at all. Today we are one day farther from the end than we were yesterday.


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## Jeffriesw

hobbs27 said:


> I have lost count of how many end time dates I have survived just in my 43 years of life.
> 
> Here is why I feel comfortable knowing it' s a hoax...other than the fact that all 4 blood moons have come with no event.
> 
> 1. The rapture is an easily disputed ideology. The parable of the wheat and tares is all one needs to look at to know the church will not be taken out of this world first.
> 
> 2. Jesus told His disciples the hour and day no man knows, not even Him but the Father only. John Hagee is not the Father.
> Jesus also said His coming in which He didn't know the hour or the day, would come in that generation of the people He was speaking to, and He told them it would happen before the disciples could finish going through the cities of Israel.
> I will hang on to the words of Jesus over John Hagee and not have any worries at all. Today we are one day farther from the end than we were yesterday.



Agreed.


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## welderguy

I don't follow John Hagee personally,but a friend at work does,and he has kept me informed of some of his views.I don't think he gave any specific date did he? I think he was more or less saying the blood moons were part of the "signs and the times",indicating the future return of Jesus.
I agree that no man knoweth the day or hour.
When I read Rom.8,particularly verse 11 and 23, I see a future time when the Spirit will make my mortal body come alive.And since that hasn't happened yet,wouldn't it be a future event?


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I don't follow John Hagee personally,but a friend at work does,and he has kept me informed of some of his views.I don't think he gave any specific date did he? I think he was more or less saying the blood moons were part of the "signs and the times",indicating the future return of Jesus.
> I agree that no man knoweth the day or hour.
> When I read Rom.8,particularly verse 11 and 23, I see a future time when the Spirit will make my mortal body come alive.And since that hasn't happened yet,wouldn't it be a future event?



Welder, When you read this you think it is speaking of a biologically dead body?

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.  10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.  11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

And this? 
 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now.  23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.  24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?  25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.


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## welderguy

Yes I do. 
Paul says "will also"(pointing back to Jesus' resurrection)"make alive your MORTAL BODIES through his Spirit who dwells in you."

Why does Paul say this about our mortal bodies in the context of Jesus' bodily resurrection if it's not referring to the bodily resurrection of our mortal bodies?
1 Thess.4 & 5 supports this bodily resurrection as well.


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## NE GA Pappy

have you ever studied the terminology concerning not knowing the day or the hour?  It has to do with the starting of Rosh Hashanah.  

Look at the scripture and rabbinical teachings and see exactly what Jesus was talking about when he made that statement.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Yes I do.
> Paul says "will also"(pointing back to Jesus' resurrection)"make alive your MORTAL BODIES through his Spirit who dwells in you."
> 
> Why does Paul say this about our mortal bodies in the context of Jesus' bodily resurrection if it's not referring to the bodily resurrection of our mortal bodies?
> 1 Thess.4 & 5 supports this bodily resurrection as well.



What they were waiting on was His return with His gift, "eternal life". 

 The Thessalonians were upset about their loved ones that died in Christ before His return...Read it again
1Thessalonians 4:15, 17 "WE" Paul includes Himself among the living at the coming of the Lord.


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## hobbs27

NE GA Pappy said:


> have you ever studied the terminology concerning not knowing the day or the hour?  It has to do with the starting Rosh Hashanah.
> 
> Look at the scripture and rabbinical teachings and see exactly what Jesus was talking about when he made that statement.



It has been a while and I need to revisit that. I have a book here somewhere that goes over all the feast Sabbaths and what they represented and how Christ's birth , death , resurrection, ascension, and return was all part of fulfilling the Sabbaths.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> What they were waiting on was His return with His gift, "eternal life"



Why then does he specify "mortal bodies" being made alive? I thought you believed that our eternal life did not involve the mortal body?



hobbs27 said:


> The Thessalonians were upset about their loved ones that died in Christ before His return...Read it again
> 1Thessalonians 4:15, 17 "WE" Paul includes Himself among the living at the coming of the Lord.



So,are you saying the book of 1 Thess. is only intended and relevant to that specific congregation of believers? That would mean all that Paul ever preached is irrelevant for us today because all his letters were to specific congregations and individuals. I think God had a much broader audience in mind.


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## dawg2

hobbs27 said:


> I don't know if it was the cloud cover that saved us or what, but John Hagee is officially a false prophet!



lol


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Why then does he specify "mortal bodies" being made alive? I thought you believed that our eternal life did not involve the mortal body?



It doesn't. But to make our physical, carnal,dying bodies alive in the spirit is the context.

Romans 8 YLT 10 and if Christ [is] in you, the body, indeed, [is] dead because of sin, and the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness,

11 and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.






welderguy said:


> So,are you saying the book of 1 Thess. is only intended and relevant to that specific congregation of believers? That would mean all that Paul ever preached is irrelevant for us today because all his letters were to specific congregations and individuals. I think God had a much broader audience in mind.



 We learn from the epistles and they are recorded for us, but they are not written to us. If they mean nothing at all to the original audience they could mean nothing at all to us.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> It doesn't. But to make our physical, carnal,dying bodies alive in the spirit is the context.
> 
> Romans 8 YLT 10 and if Christ [is] in you, the body, indeed, [is] dead because of sin, and the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness,
> 
> 11 and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit.



Are the bodies spoken of in John 5:28-29 still dying? Because it says they are in the graves.
They seem to me to be totally dead,not dying.Yet Jesus says they will hear His voice and come out.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Are the bodies spoken of in John 5:28-29 still dying? Because it says they are in the graves.
> They seem to me to be totally dead,not dying.Yet Jesus says they will hear His voice and come out.




In John 5 there was no Salvation. The blood had not shed, so death still reigned. The ones in the grave were the likes of Adam, Moses, Abraham, Samuel, etc... The grave was Hades which was an abode for the dead that were separated by sin from God. Even they needed to be washed in the blood before they could go to heaven.

When Christ died on the cross He first descended, and led that captivity captive out of paradise at the ascension.

8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”*
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first[c] descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

There is no mention of bodies in John5 or Ephesians 4.*


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> In John 5 there was no Salvation. The blood had not shed, so death still reigned. The ones in the grave were the likes of Adam, Moses, Abraham, Samuel, etc... The grave was Hades which was an abode for the dead that were separated by sin from God. Even they needed to be washed in the blood before they could go to heaven.
> 
> When Christ died on the cross He first descended, and led that captivity captive out of paradise at the ascension.
> 
> 8 Therefore He says:
> 
> “When He ascended on high,
> He led captivity captive,
> And gave gifts to men.”*
> 9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first[c] descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
> 
> There is no mention of bodies in John5 or Ephesians 4.*


*

I don't believe there is this separation from God at death,even for the old testament saints,based on Eccl.12:7:

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was;and the spirit shall return to God who gave it."*


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## Miguel Cervantes

mtnwoman said:


> Or is anyone interested in discussing the topic...I can't find what I'm looking for on the net.



I never discuss end times blather. Astronomical and geological events happen, and have been happening for hundreds of thousands of years, and may continue for another hundred thousand. 

In my honest opinion, wasting time discussing that of what not even the angels in heaven know is a counterproductive use of time that should otherwise be spent on spreading the Good News.


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## jasper181

Hagge is a hack, anything to make money. There has been something like 8 lunar tetrads during Passover, not sure why this one is any different. Im not sure how so called Christians buy into this stuff, the Bible is pretty clear on the subject of guessing when the time may come .


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I don't believe there is this separation from God at death,even for the old testament saints,based on Eccl.12:7:
> 
> "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was;and the spirit shall return to God who gave it."



What purpose did the cross serve, if eternal life was offered in the Old Testament?

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus was a fable?


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> What purpose did the cross serve, if eternal life was offered in the Old Testament?
> 
> The parable of the rich man and Lazarus was a fable?



The old testament saints were covered by the same blood that the new testament saints are.Not by the blood of bulls and goats,but by the blood of Jesus.The animal sacrifices only pointed forward to the only acceptable sacrifice,which was Jesus.He atoned for all the sins of all his people one time and then sat down,because the work was finished.

The parable of the rich man and Lazerus does not show separation of Abraham and Lazerus from God.Only separation of the rich man by a great gulf,who was in torment.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> The old testament saints were covered by the same blood that the new testament saints are.Not by the blood of bulls and goats,but by the blood of Jesus.The animal sacrifices only pointed forward to the only acceptable sacrifice,which was Jesus.He atoned for all the sins of all his people one time and then sat down,because the work was finished.
> 
> The parable of the rich man and Lazerus does not show separation of Abraham and Lazerus from God.Only separation of the rich man by a great gulf,who was in torment.




So , what purpose did the cross serve?


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> So , what purpose did the cross serve?



I just told you.To atone for all the sins of ALL God's people.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I just told you.To atone for all the sins of ALL God's people.




John 3:13 

13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.


Here is an old covenant example of the spirit being summoned from the grave, not in heaven, not in Gods presence but from the earth.

7 Then Saul said to his servants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.”

And his servants said to him, “In fact, there is a woman who is a medium at En Dor.”

8 So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothes, and he went, and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Please conduct a séance for me, and bring up for me the one I shall name to you.”

9 Then the woman said to him, “Look, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the spiritists from the land. Why then do you lay a snare for my life, to cause me to die?”

10 And Saul swore to her by the Lord, saying, “As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.”

11 Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”

And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.”

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”

13 And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”

And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit[a] ascending out of the earth.”

14 So he said to her, “What is his form?”

And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.

15 Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.”


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I just told you.To atone for all the sins of ALL God's people.



 The reason I had to ask twice is because I'm trying to make sense of what your eluding to.

Evidently , if I now understand you is that Christ could been crucified anytime , in our past or in our future and Adam , Abel, Moses , Abraham would still be covered by His blood, at their death????


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> John 3:13
> 
> 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 15
> 20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming.
> 
> 
> Here is an old covenant example of the spirit being summoned from the grave, not in heaven, not in Gods presence but from the earth.
> 
> 7 Then Saul said to his servants, “Find me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.”
> 
> And his servants said to him, “In fact, there is a woman who is a medium at En Dor.”
> 
> 8 So Saul disguised himself and put on other clothes, and he went, and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, “Please conduct a séance for me, and bring up for me the one I shall name to you.”
> 
> 9 Then the woman said to him, “Look, you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the spiritists from the land. Why then do you lay a snare for my life, to cause me to die?”
> 
> 10 And Saul swore to her by the Lord, saying, “As the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.”
> 
> 11 Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?”
> 
> And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.”
> 
> 12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!”
> 
> 13 And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?”
> 
> And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit[a] ascending out of the earth.”
> 
> 14 So he said to her, “What is his form?”
> 
> And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down.
> 
> 15 Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”
> 
> And Saul answered, “I am deeply distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God has departed from me and does not answer me anymore, neither by prophets nor by dreams. Therefore I have called you, that you may reveal to me what I should do.”



John 3:13 speaks of our physical body,which has not ascended to heaven yet.Only Jesus has.
1 Cor.15:20 basically says the same thing.

As far as Samuel being summoned,it was his spirit.
In the parable of Lazerus and the rich man,Abraham never said it was impossible to send Lazerus,he only said it would do no good.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> John 3:13 speaks of our physical body,which has not ascended to heaven yet.Only Jesus has.
> 1 Cor.15:20 basically says the same thing.
> 
> As far as Samuel being summoned,it was his spirit.
> In the parable of Lazerus and the rich man,Abraham never said it was impossible to send Lazerus,he only said it would do no good.




John 3 does not say physical bodies.
Neither does 1 Corinthians 15...matter of fact 1 Corinthians 15 says that flesh which is corruption will not inherit heaven which is incorruption.
Verse 50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> John 3 does not say physical bodies.
> Neither does 1 Corinthians 15...matter of fact 1 Corinthians 15 says that flesh which is corruption will not inherit heaven which is incorruption.
> Verse 50
> Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.



You're right.Corruption will not inherit the kingdom of God.God's elect will be given a glorified body fashioned like unto His.We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed.In a moment,in the twinkling of an eye.This corruption must put on incorruption and this mortality must put on immortality.


----------



## hobbs27

I'll let you slide on the timing of it today. 
 We've discussed the nature, and I guess we have come to an agreement that our bodies will be spiritual since God is Spirit and we will have a body as His?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> The reason I had to ask twice is because I'm trying to make sense of what your eluding to.
> 
> Evidently , if I now understand you is that Christ could been crucified anytime , in our past or in our future and Adam , Abel, Moses , Abraham would still be covered by His blood, at their death????



Isn't that the way it happened? I'm not saying they went directly to Heaven but if they believed Jesus would one day die for their sins, then they were covered by the blood of Christ.

Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. They might have waited in Paradise but it was still the blood of Christ that atoned their sins.

One of those God operating out of time things.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I'll let you slide on the timing of it today.
> We've discussed the nature, and I guess we have come to an agreement that our bodies will be spiritual since God is Spirit and we will have a body as His?



I've enjoyed it as I always do Hobbs.Always a challenge with you brother.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Isn't that the way it happened? I'm not saying they went directly to Heaven but if they believed Jesus would one day die for their sins, then they were covered by the blood of Christ.
> 
> Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. They might have waited in Paradise but it was still the blood of Christ that atoned their sins.
> 
> One of those God operating out of time things.



I believe so Art.
John 8:56 says "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day,and he saw it and was glad."


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Isn't that the way it happened? I'm not saying they went directly to Heaven but if they believed Jesus would one day die for their sins, then they were covered by the blood of Christ.
> 
> Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. They might have waited in Paradise but it was still the blood of Christ that atoned their sins.
> 
> One of those God operating out of time things.



I don't think they obtained Salvation until the cross. Jesus descended to them after the blood was shed, if a person believes in predestination, then what matter is the timing of the cross? 
 I don't, or I guess you could say I'm a partial predestiner, I do believe in an experience of grace, I don't believe grace could be experienced until grace came though.

Jesus offered eternal life, that's a New Covenant offering, Death reigned in the Old Covenant.....


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I've enjoyed it as I always do Hobbs.Always a challenge with you brother.



As well.


----------



## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> I'll let you slide on the timing of it today.
> We've discussed the nature, and I guess we have come to an agreement that our bodies will be spiritual since God is Spirit and we will have a body as His?



Interesting conclusion for today. But tomorrow, for Jesus being both God and man, I suggest that our bodies will be physical as well. Perhaps this might come up some other day.


Maybe you guys already know this and in fact maybe there is nothing to this, ( I'm not too good with this stuff) but  the word for natural body in other languages is a word to mean nephesh in hebrew.  I know that in french it is written "corp psychique" or "corp psyche". It is my understanding that  the nephesh is the vital principal that animates the human body as understood by Paul and bible tradition. My point if I understand correctly is that what 1 Corinthians 15:44 might read is that" It is sown a "nephesh' body: it is raised a spiritual body. 

  1Corinthians 15:44King  (KJV)

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 ( Natural body here just does not convey the right meaning perhaps... because it is not the body that is sown, but the psyche or the nephesh.)

Nephesh would have psychic as a english translation perhaps.. and perhaps it would mean

: Which concerns thought, spirit.
english : psychic.

synomyms:

cerebral, intellectuel, interieur, mental, moral, spiritual.

If all this is not usefull toss it. Like I say I'm not good with things like this. Viewed in a simplistic way I read " It is sown a spiritual body and raised a spiritual body, but the one sown is different than the raised one..."


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> I believe so Art.
> John 8:56 says "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day,and he saw it and was glad."



Did Abraham see it from Paradise or after his resurrection that occurred after Jesus arose?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I don't think they obtained Salvation until the cross. Jesus descended to them after the blood was shed, if a person believes in predestination, then what matter is the timing of the cross?
> I don't, or I guess you could say I'm a partial predestiner, I do believe in an experience of grace, I don't believe grace could be experienced until grace came though.
> 
> Jesus offered eternal life, that's a New Covenant offering, Death reigned in the Old Covenant.....



They had faith in God. They believed he would sin the Messiah. Why does it matter when Christ would die within the scope of our lives? 
For them the promise was after their physical death, for us it is after. 
Perhaps they had the promise of salvation and had to await for the actual blood of the cross atonement until they either, left the grave or left Paradise to be with God.

They had salvation from everlasting death, they just had to wait awhile to receive it.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> They had faith in God. They believed he would sin the Messiah. Why does it matter when Christ would die within the scope of our lives?
> For them the promise was after their physical death, for us it is after.
> Perhaps they had the promise of salvation and had to await for the actual blood of the cross atonement until they either, left the grave or left Paradise to be with God.
> 
> They had salvation from everlasting death, they just had to wait awhile to receive it.



It is covenant that matters. They had a covenant in which death reigned. We have a covenant in which everlasting life is the goal.


----------



## Artfuldodger

During Christ's transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were present. 
Elijah was taken to Heaven without dying but we know that no man has come down from Heaven but Jesus.
How can Moses and Elijah have been present at the transfiguration if they were waiting for the resurrection? Elijah never died so he could be present without a resurrection.
Special instances maybe as God buried Moses himself. There is speculation that God resurrected Moses after the archangel Michael contended with Satan over the body of Moses.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> During Christ's transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were present.
> Elijah was taken to Heaven without dying but we know that no man has come down from Heaven but Jesus.
> How can Moses and Elijah have been present at the transfiguration if they were waiting for the resurrection? Elijah never died so he could be present without a resurrection.
> Special instances maybe as God buried Moses himself. There is speculation that God resurrected Moses after the archangel Michael contended with Satan over the body of Moses.



Elijah did die. Elijah did not go to heaven. They were there in a vision representing the law and the prophets, and Christ fulfilling that.
http://rightwordtruth.com/did-enoch-and-elijah-die-or-are-they-alive-in-heaven/


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> It is covenant that matters. They had a covenant in which death reigned. We have a covenant in which everlasting life is the goal.



True but they were still men of God, correct? Didn't they eventually overcome death when Christ died on the cross?

Now the mystery would be how Gentiles were saved before the grafting in of the Tree of Israel.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

hobbs27 said:


> Elijah did die. Elijah did not go to heaven. They were there in a vision representing the law and the prophets, and Christ fulfilling that.



a vision that multiple people experienced at the same time, saw the same vision, heard the same words and reacted the same way to the voice they heard?

Amazing.


Can you show me, chapter and verse please, where Elijah ever died?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Elijah did die. Elijah did not go to heaven. They were there in a vision representing the law and the prophets, and Christ fulfilling that.
> http://rightwordtruth.com/did-enoch-and-elijah-die-or-are-they-alive-in-heaven/



OK, it was just the sky. Eventually Elijah died. So now we have two dead prophets, Elijah & Moses, present at Christ's transfiguration which was all just a vision.
It had to be as Christ is the firstborn of the dead. No man had been resurrected from the dead before Christ. Was everyone soul sleeping before Christ was resurrected?

Daniel 12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

What about the resurrection of Lazarus?


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Artfuldodger said:


> No man had been resurrected from the dead before Christ. Was everyone soul sleeping before Christ was resurrected?



I hope you are being sarcastic here.  There are numerous instances in the Bible of people being resurrected from the before Jesus.  During Elijah's time and  Elisha's time.

as a matter of fact, the rabbinical teachings are that Jonah died in the belly of the fish, and was resurrected.


----------



## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> I hope you are being sarcastic here.  There are numerous instances in the Bible of people being resurrected from the before Jesus.  During Elijah's time and  Elisha's time.
> 
> as a matter of fact, the rabbinical teachings are that Jonah died in the belly of the fish, and was resurrected.



But we read in Jn. 3:13, “No man hath ascended to heaven but He Who came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven”. 

Were these resurrections spirits or bodies? Where did they go after their resurrection? It wasn't Heaven. John 3:13 tells us so.

1 Corinthians 15:20
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

Confusing isn't it? How can he be the first man resurrected from the dead when we know that men have been raised from the dead before him?


----------



## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> a vision that multiple people experienced at the same time, saw the same vision, heard the same words and reacted the same way to the voice they heard?
> 
> Amazing.
> 
> Can you show me, chapter and verse please, where Elijah ever died?



Where did Elijah go if he didn't die? He couldn't have went to Heaven as no man has come down from Heaven but the Son of Man.

When was Moses resurrected? Better yet when were all of the dead saints in the Old Testament resurrected?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Where did Elijah go if he didn't die? He couldn't have went to Heaven as no man has come down from Heaven but the Son of Man.
> 
> When was Moses resurrected? Better yet when were all of the dead saints in the Old Testament resurrected?





I'm going to answer this one before I go to sleep and I'll catch the other ones in the morning.

 Jesus took them with him at His ascension. He led the captives as he ascended.

 There's a lot to this, but its the truth.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

weren't the dead all held in Abraham's bosom until Christ was resurrected?  (rich man/Lazarus) Doesn't the Bible teach that Christ went to Hades and brought back the keys to Death, the Grave and Hades?  The people who were resurrected before eventually died again, and were held under the curse of Death until being freed when Christ was resurrected.  Christ's resurrection was not a temporary one, but a fully victorious one, where the authority over Death, Hades and the Grave was once again in the rightful possession of Christ.


----------



## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> weren't the dead all held in Abraham's bosom until Christ was resurrected?  (rich man/Lazarus) Doesn't the Bible teach that Christ went to Hades and brought back the keys to Death, the Grave and Hades?  The people who were resurrected before eventually died again, and were held under the curse of Death until being freed when Christ was resurrected.  Christ's resurrection was not a temporary one, but a fully victorious one, where the authority over Death, Hades and the Grave was once again in the rightful possession of Christ.



That's pretty much in line with Hobbs explanation. So you see all of the resurrections before Christ's as temporary?  
Is there anything biblical as to when they died a second death to be everlastingly resurrected with Christ?
I'm trying to tie in Elijah and Moses being present at Christ's transfiguration if not just a vision. You were looking for scripture that Elijah died yet you say the Old Testament saints eventually all died.  Were you excluding Elijah? 
Now if they were physically or spiritually at Christ's transfiguration, where did they come from? Were they sleeping in the grave or spiritually in Hades?
If at the time of Christ's transfiguration Elijah never died, then he would be present at the transfiguration physically. Moses on the other hand died and was buried by God.
I just think we are all doing a lot of speculation on this subject. If Moses was buried by God, did God physically resurrect him to attend the transfiguration only to have him die a second time with the rest of the saints for their everlasting resurrection with Christ?

I thought we were destined to die only once. I've never heard of temporary resurrections. I'll have to study this concept more. It seems logical using Lazarus as an example.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

What about Enoch?  Scripture says that Enoch was not, for God took him. I believe that Enoch and Elijah will be the 2 prophets that are killed in Jerusalem and raised from the dead in the last days.  Scripture says it is appointed to man once to die, and that is the only 2 men I can think of that never died.

 I wonder if that means you only die once, or that you will die at least once.

If the rabbinical teachings are correct, Jonah died 3 times.  Once as a child, once as a phophet, once at the end of his earthly existence.


----------



## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> What about Enoch?  Scripture says that Enoch was not, for God took him. I believe that Enoch and Elijah will be the 2 prophets that are killed in Jerusalem and raised from the dead in the last days.  Scripture says it is appointed to man once to die, and that is the only 2 men I can think of that never died.
> 
> I wonder if that means you only die once, or that you will die at least once.
> 
> If the rabbinical teachings are correct, Jonah died 3 times.  Once as a child, once as a phophet, once at the end of his earthly existence.



Wow, I was just reading about the Two Witnesses. Interesting discussion.


----------



## blood on the ground

A fella could get cut up in here ifin he wasn't careful!


----------



## gordon 2

blood on the ground said:


> A fella could get cut up in here ifin he wasn't careful!



Egos are checked at the door. So if anything gets cut it don't matter much, if any.


----------



## hobbs27

The Two Witnesses: 

If anyone wants to start a thread on this I would love to discuss it more, if not that's okay . I have some exerts from a study I did on this last year and the way I understand it and why.

I agree just about every commentary you read on this will say the two witnesses were the law and prophets or Moses and Elijah. This cannot be correct.

The two witnesses we are told in Revelation 11 are lampstands, and olive trees.

Lampstands we know according to Revelation 1 is The Church, a church, or the churches.

Paul tells us in Romans 11, that Gentiles are a wild olive tree and are grafted in. At the time of the destruction of the Temple which was a 42 month seige there were two churches made up of Jews and another made up of Gentiles. These are the two witnesses. In the end they are killed but the resurrected, then there is one church left one Church of Christ the never ending Kingdom, the new covenant.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> OK, it was just the sky. Eventually Elijah died. So now we have two dead prophets, Elijah & Moses, present at Christ's transfiguration which was all just a vision.
> It had to be as Christ is the firstborn of the dead. No man had been resurrected from the dead before Christ. Was everyone soul sleeping before Christ was resurrected?
> 
> Daniel 12:2
> And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
> 
> What about the resurrection of Lazarus?



As Pappy explained , there were some that were resurrected before Christ's resurrection. Samuel was raised, etc. But none of them were resurrected from the death Adam had in the garden the day he took of the fruit. That death was spiritual death, and it was a spiritual death in which Jesus was the first fruit of.

 When He took on our sin at the cross, the Father forsook Him, God will not commune in a sinful temple. He took on our sin by grace, a love for us so great that words cannot properly define. This love washes us of our sin only through our faith, and puts us back in communion with God that Adam had in the garden.

It was such a powerful event that while on the cross, just after He was forsaken, that graves burst open and many were resurrected on the spot. This scared the daylights out of the Roman soldiers standing by.

After His physical death He descended to the grave, " heart of the earth" " Abraham's bosom" aka " paradise"  He led that captivity captives with Him at the ascension.

Just as Hebrew tradition throughout the bible, when Christ sacked the grave, and removed its hostages , " those that slept" He gained the spoils of it. Those spoils were the spiritual gifts He poured out on the day of Pentecost. The day Peter stood up and said, " This is that" in which the prophet Joel said would happen in the last days.
 They were in the last days, scripture is very clear on this.


----------



## welderguy

Hobbs,these things you are presenting are a little above my understanding. I was hoping we could continue discussing why you don't believe in a future bodily resurrection.I'm not proclaiming the blood moons are or are not a sign that it's near,but I do believe Jesus is coming back for us in the future.I'm interested in why you don't see it the same way.If now is not a good time though it's ok.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Hobbs,these things you are presenting are a little above my understanding. I was hoping we could continue discussing why you don't believe in a future bodily resurrection.I'm not proclaiming the blood moons are or are not a sign that it's near,but I do believe Jesus is coming back for us in the future.I'm interested in why you don't see it the same way.If now is not a good time though it's ok.



This may be easier if you lead and I follow, so it goes in the direction you want it to.

 What's your top reasons you believe that Christ will come in our future and take the church out of this world?


----------



## welderguy

Ok.I'll start with Phil.3:20-21:
"For our conversation(citizenship) is in heaven;from whence also we look for the Savior,the Lord Jesus Christ:
who shall change our vile body,that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body,according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself."

It tells us that this is not our home.That we are looking for our Saviour.Then it says He will change our bodies into something that's like His body.And it will be glorious.


----------



## welderguy

Luke 24 shows us a lot about Jesus' resurrected body,even though He had not yet been glorified.He wasn't glorified until He ascended.
We read in vs.39:
"Behold my hands and my feet:that it is I myself.handle me and see;for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have.
Then,in verse 42 &43,He ate a piece of fish and a honeycomb.This was after He came through the walls of the upper room.

If we are going to have a body fashioned like His,I believe we will still have physical characteristics as well as spiritual ones,like He had.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Luke 24 shows us a lot about Jesus' resurrected body,even though He had not yet been glorified.He wasn't glorified until He ascended.
> We read in vs.39:
> "Behold my hands and my feet:that it is I myself.handle me and see;for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have.
> Then,in verse 42 &43,He ate a piece of fish and a honeycomb.This was after He came through the walls of the upper room.
> 
> If we are going to have a body fashioned like His,I believe we will still have physical characteristics as well as spiritual ones,like He had.



Where do our spirits go to await this new physical glorified body? Can I assume the dead saints are in their resurrected bodies already in heaven or will they too return with Jesus for their bodies?


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Where do our spirits go to await this new physical glorified body?



I believe the answer is found in Eccl.12:7.


----------



## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> I'm interested in why you don't see it the same way.If now is not a good time though it's ok.



For hobbs, there is no such thing as "not a good time" to discuss preterism.


----------



## hobbs27

Welderguy, I only have one disagreement in your first affirmative, and that is in your statement that " we " are looking for our Saviour. It was " them" that was looking. 

So on your second comment about Luke 24. I have always agreed that Jesus was physically resurrected. I believe He is the only one ever to be resurrected in a physical body though, and I believe you have rebuked your on affirmative when you state he had not yet received His glorified body, but did so at the ascension?

You and I agree on these points. Jesus was physically resurrected but must have lost the flesh somewhere at the ascension... I believe He presented the flesh In the heavenly temple as sacrifice.


----------



## welderguy

I didn't say Jesus would receive a different body at His ascension.I said He was not yet glorified.Please show me in scripture what makes you believe Jesus lost His physical attributes when He was glorified.Also this sacrifice you say He made in the "heavenly temple."
I don't believe there was any need of anymore sacrifices because He said "It is finished" on the cross.


----------



## hobbs27

Jesus appearance to John: no longer a 5' 5" Jew.

Revelation 1
 13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead.

There is nothing in scripture about Christ's flesh, I admittedly assume the flesh was presented as sacrifice, keeping in order of the Hebrew atonement.

As for Christ saying " it is finished",  we really need to focus on what the "it" is that was finished, because it couldn't have been all. 

I believe the " it" was the suffering that He had to endure.


----------



## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> For hobbs, there is no such thing as "not a good time" to discuss preterism.



You couldn't come up with a good little movie clip for me? 
http://truthinliving.net/eschatology/


----------



## welderguy

In his High Priestly prayer,Jesus said to the Father "I have finished the work which you sent me to do".
I don't believe that after the atonement on the cross,there was anymore sacrificial work to be done.Otherwise,Jesus would not have sat down on the right hand of God.Remember,there was no place for the Levitical priest to sit in the tabernacle because the work was never finished.But Jesus sat down,signifying His work was finished.(Heb.10:10-13)
The fact that Jesus came out of the grave on the third day signified the Fathers approval of Jesus' redemptive work.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> In his High Priestly prayer,Jesus said to the Father "I have finished the work which you sent me to do".
> I don't believe that after the atonement on the cross,there was anymore sacrificial work to be done.Otherwise,Jesus would not have sat down on the right hand of God.Remember,there was no place for the Levitical priest to sit in the tabernacle because the work was never finished.But Jesus sat down,signifying His work was finished.
> The fact that Jesus came out of the grave on the third day signified the Fathers approval of Jesus' redemptive work.




 Jesus entering heaven was representative of the High priest entering the Holiest holies... Remember the people stood outside awaiting the announcement of the High priest to know if the sacrifice had been accepted. They only knew once the High Priest exited the Holiest Holies and made the announcement ...70AD.

Notice this in Hebrews , just a couple of years before 70ad. The law was still in effect for some.

Hebrews 8:13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

Jesus had said Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Not all was fulfilled when Hebrews was written, His return and destruction of the temple in which He prophesied in Matthew 24 was still pending.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Not all was fulfilled when Hebrews was written, His return and destruction of the temple in which He prophesied in Matthew 24 was still pending.



I believe Heb.10:9-10 begs to differ.
"Then said He,lo I come to do thy will O God.He taketh away the first that He may establish the second.
By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

So,Jesus took away the first and established the second.
When?
Not at the destruction of the temple,but when He offered His body.
How many times did He offer His body?
Once for all.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I believe Heb.10:9-10 begs to differ.
> "Then said He,lo I come to do thy will O God.He taketh away the first that He may establish the second.
> By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
> 
> So,Jesus took away the first and established the second.
> When?
> Not at the destruction of the temple,but when He offered His body.
> How many times did He offer His body?
> Once for all.



 I must disagree, first scripture does not contradict scripture. Secondly Gods will being fulfilled does not mean the law was fulfilled as shown in this verse by using it in the present tense. The word "are" shows it was still present which backs up Hebrews 8:13

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Here's how it went down according to scripture:


----------



## welderguy

There was a very significant reason that the temple veil was torn down the middle from top to bottom by God at Jesus' death.
The ceremonial sacrifice was done away with,because Jesus was the true spotless sacrifice that all the other sacrifices pointed to.They were the type.He was the real thing.When He said "it is finished",it wasn't only about His suffering. It was about the entire redemptive work.
He never concerned Himself with His suffering throughout His entire life.It was always about doing His Father's will and finishing the work He gave Him to do.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> There was a very significant reason that the temple veil was torn down the middle from top to bottom by God at Jesus' death.
> The ceremonial sacrifice was done away with,because Jesus was the true spotless sacrifice that all the other sacrifices pointed to.They were the type.He was the real thing.When He said "it is finished",it wasn't only about His suffering. It was about the entire redemptive work.
> He never concerned Himself with His suffering throughout His entire life.It was always about doing His Father's will and finishing the work He gave Him to do.



 That sounds good when you say it, now put it to scripture. Show me that the Law was fulfilled at the cross, but you better make it good because Im loaded with scripture in the epistles that shows an active ongoing Law for the Jews, something they no longer have since the temple destruction.


----------



## Artfuldodger

If Christ's mission/purpose is done then he doesn't need to come back. His entity of the Godhead isn't needed as mediator or judge.
He can be absorbed back into God the Father.

I think "it is finished" was his life on the cross. His physical mission on the earth was finished. Taking on the world's sin was finished. He knew his suffering would soon be over and he would die. 
True he would resurrect and continue parts 2 and 3 of his Father's will, his part on the cross was finished. 
He still has a mission whether he has returned or is still going to return.

"Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Some Futurist use this to mean we are still under the Law. Maybe the people in the 40 year transition were under the law. If not what does this mean?


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Ok.I'll start with Phil.3:20-21:
> "For our conversation(citizenship) is in heaven;from whence also we look for the Savior,the Lord Jesus Christ:
> who shall change our vile body,that it may be fashioned like unto His glorious body,according to the working whereby He is able even to subdue all things unto Himself."
> 
> It tells us that this is not our home.That we are looking for our Saviour.Then it says He will change our bodies into something that's like His body.And it will be glorious.



If we can't go to Heaven without a body, where do our spirits go to be with Jesus while we wait for his return?
Have you ever read anything by Randy Alcorn describing Heaven?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> That sounds good when you say it, now put it to scripture. Show me that the Law was fulfilled at the cross, but you better make it good because Im loaded with scripture in the epistles that shows an active ongoing Law for the Jews, something they no longer have since the temple destruction.



There's no question that the Jews continued practicing the Law after Jesus' death.They did not believe He was the Messiah.They rejected Him.That's why they crucified Him.Scripture says they were blind and slow to believe all that the prophets spoke concerning Him.
One of the big things that really made them hate Him was when He said He would destroy their temple and raise it up in three days.They thought He spoke of the literal temple,but rather He spoke of His death and resurrection.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> There's no question that the Jews continued practicing the Law after Jesus' death.They did not believe He was the Messiah.They rejected Him.That's why they crucified Him.Scripture says they were blind and slow to believe all that the prophets spoke concerning Him.
> One of the big things that really made them hate Him was when He said He would destroy their temple and raise it up in three days.They thought He spoke of the literal temple,but rather He spoke of His death and resurrection.



Paul circumsised Timothy according to the Law  Timothy's mother was a jewess.

Acts 16:3


----------



## hobbs27

Pauls words Acts 24:14
"But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets;


----------



## hobbs27

Acts 18:21But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast that cometh in Jerusalem: but I will return again unto you, if God will. And he sailed from Ephesus.

That feast was a Jewish sacrament, that was to be kept by the law.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Paul circumsised Timothy according to the Law  Timothy's mother was a jewess.
> 
> Acts 16:3



Christian liberty.He was not bound by the law to do it.He did it for the sake of the weaker Jews because it was a stumbling block to their faith.
BTW,Paul also used this same Christian liberty when he refused to circumcise Titus.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Pauls words Acts 24:14
> "But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets;



Why wouldn't he believe the Law and the prophets?The law was good.Jesus didn't come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Why wouldn't he believe the Law and the prophets?The law was good.Jesus didn't come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it.



His admission is he was actively following the Law. Why would any Christian do such a thing if the Law was fulfilled at that time? Remember Jesus said not one jot or tittle in no wise will pass away till all is fulfilled.  So the law was going to pass away, but not until all was fulfilled. 70 ad fulfilled all.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> His admission is he was actively following the Law. Why would any Christian do such a thing if the Law was fulfilled at that time? Remember Jesus said not one jot or tittle in no wise will pass away till all is fulfilled.  So the law was going to pass away, but not until all was fulfilled. 70 ad fulfilled all.



Paul was all about preaching grace.Not works of the Law.Surely you can see that.

Or are you like those he speaks of in ROM.11:6-7 ?


----------



## welderguy

Anyway,can we get back to the subject of the physical bodily resurrection?


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Paul was all about preaching grace.Not works of the Law.Surely you can see that.
> 
> Or are you like those he speaks of in ROM.11:6-7 ?



Paul preached grace, yes, especially to the Gentiles in which he had to defend to the Jewish council to prevent them from being circumcised .


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Anyway,can we get back to the subject of the physical bodily resurrection?



Sure, I'm following your lead.


----------



## welderguy

What are your thoughts on ROM.8:23 ?
Specifically the last phrase:

"waiting for the adoption,to wit,the redemption of our body."

Is this redemption of our body something that happened at 70AD ?


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> What are your thoughts on ROM.8:23 ?
> Specifically the last phrase:
> 
> "waiting for the adoption,to wit,the redemption of our body."
> 
> Is this redemption of our body something that happened at 70AD ?



Yes, and let me add, I believe the use of the word body here is not individual biological bodies , but a group. The church body, which was in a state of already, but not yet, in that 40 year period wandering between two covenants.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Yes, and let me add, I believe the use of the word body here is not individual biological bodies , but a group. The church body, which was in a state of already, but not yet, in that 40 year period wandering between two covenants.



I would assume today we are adopted as sons as soon as we receive salvation. I don't understand the "body" part but I don't believe I'm waiting on a body to be adopted into the Kingdom. Not unless we're not in the Kingdom yet and are awaiting new bodies to enter the Kingdom.
Some say we are in the kingdom but not yet in the Kingdom. If it's like that then we might need a body for the Kingdom.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I would assume today we are adopted as sons as soon as we receive salvation. I don't understand the "body" part but I don't believe I'm waiting on a body to be adopted into the Kingdom. Not unless we're not in the Kingdom yet and are awaiting new bodies to enter the Kingdom.
> Some say we are in the kingdom but not yet in the Kingdom. If it's like that then we might need a body for the Kingdom.



Agreed, the body is or was in this case the church body, a body of believers awaiting.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I would assume today we are adopted as sons as soon as we receive salvation. I don't understand the "body" part but I don't believe I'm waiting on a body to be adopted into the Kingdom. Not unless we're not in the Kingdom yet and are awaiting new bodies to enter the Kingdom.
> Some say we are in the kingdom but not yet in the Kingdom. If it's like that then we might need a body for the Kingdom.



We are definitely in the Kingdom.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Yes, and let me add, I believe the use of the word body here is not individual biological bodies , but a group. The church body, which was in a state of already, but not yet, in that 40 year period wandering between two covenants.



I find it strange that Paul would say "OUR body",if he's referring to the body of Christ the church.
Another thing that doesn't make sense to me is if this redemption of the body took place at 70AD,wouldn't that exclude all the people that were not yet born ? If you then say,no it was the entire group of God's elect,past,present,and future,then you would have to amend your beliefs about election and predestination. I'm not following your line of reasoning....but I am a little slow,bear with me.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> I find it strange that Paul would say "OUR body",if he's referring to the body of Christ the church.
> Another thing that doesn't make sense to me is if this redemption of the body took place at 70AD,wouldn't that exclude all the people that were not yet born ? If you then say,no it was the entire group of God's elect,past,present,and future,then you would have to amend your beliefs about election and predestination. I'm not following your line of reasoning....but I am a little slow,bear with me.



I think the word " our" would force " body" to be a plural " bodies" if it were individual biological bodies.

I think verse 22 puts into context as a corporate body. This corporate body was awaiting the resurrection. The death of the old covenant Church ( body) and the rise of the New Covenant church ( body).

The resurrection promise belonged to Old Covenant Israel..The promise belonged to Israel " after the flesh" Romans 9:3. And he said that the promise  of the resurrection was taught in the law and prophets Acts 24:14. Resurrection was the hope of the twelve tribes Acts 26:6 It was the fulfillment of Isaiah 25 and Hosea 13.

Secondly the resurrection is linked with the timing of the judgement of Israel Daniel 12:1-9 and Isaiah 65-66.  

I'll stop here for now because I know with presuppositions of a physical future resurrection , I just created a fog in most people's minds...Think of it like this. The Resurrection was Israel's promise. The church's promise is Ephesians 3:20-21. Age without end.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I think the word " our" would force " body" to be a plural " bodies" if it were individual biological bodies.
> 
> I think verse 22 puts into context as a corporate body. This corporate body was awaiting the resurrection. The death of the old covenant Church ( body) and the rise of the New Covenant church ( body).
> 
> The resurrection promise belonged to Old Covenant Israel..The promise belonged to Israel " after the flesh" Romans 9:3. And he said that the promise  of the resurrection was taught in the law and prophets Acts 24:14. Resurrection was the hope of the twelve tribes Acts 26:6 It was the fulfillment of Isaiah 25 and Hosea 13.
> 
> Secondly the resurrection is linked with the timing of the judgement of Israel Daniel 12:1-9 and Isaiah 65-66.
> 
> I'll stop here for now because I know with presuppositions of a physical future resurrection , I just created a fog in most people's minds...Think of it like this. The Resurrection was Israel's promise. The church's promise is Ephesians 3:20-21. Age without end.



If it's like you say and he means the church body,why would he describe His church as a "vile" body in Phil.3:21?
Rom.8:1 tells me that there is therefore NOW no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus....
That was the direct result of Jesus' death and resurrection.70AD had not happened yet.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> If it's like you say and he means the church body,why would he describe His church as a "vile" body in Phil.3:21?
> Rom.8:1 tells me that there is therefore NOW no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus....
> That was the direct result of Jesus' death and resurrection.70AD had not happened yet.


"Those whom he called, he predestined, to be conformed to the IMAGE of his son" Romans 8.

"We who are BEING TRANSFORMED in the IMAGE of his son." (II Cor 3).

'...but be ye TRANSFORMED in the RENEWAL of your MINDS" (Romans 12.1).

See anything PHYSICAL here, yet?

========

1 Corinthians 15
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Compare the above scripture with:

2 Corinthians 3 The Covenant Change / Glory of the New Covenant
Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?, 16 the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Does the Spirit that changed people into the image of the Lord dwell in dead corpses? Or was it dwelling in people who were covenantally dead (seperated from God)? Please note: They were being TRANSFORMED into the SAME IMAGE from GLORY (Old Covenant) to GLORY (New Covenant). If they are in the New Covenant then they have been TRANSFORMED into the Lord's IMAGE!


----------



## hobbs27

As for Romans 8:1..I have explained they were in a state of already, but not yet. My friend Charles Meek which I believe is a member here on GON writes in his book concerning this.

(
"Christ's death on the cross paid the penalty for our sins (Romans 8:1-4; 1 Corinthians 15:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17-21; Hebrews 9:15-22).  His resurrection provides our hope for eternal life (1 Corinthians 15: 2 Timothy 1:10; etc.). His Parousia sealed our salvation (Luke 21:28; Romans 13:11; Hebrews 9:26-28; 1 Peter 1:5). The old pre-Christ world of shadows and prophecies, the things which were 'imperfect' and 'in part' (Daniel 9:24; 1 Corinthians 13:8-22; etc.) were brought to completion. Unlike the futurist paradigm in which the Christian age is but a comma, Covenant Eschatology confirms Christ as completely triumphant--victorious even in the midst of sin" (p. 297)


----------



## welderguy

Well Hobbs,that's a lot to process.And don't get me wrong,there's definitely a spiritual aspect to it I agree.But,as far as our resurrection, I contend that there's a physical aspect also.We must rightly devide the two as I showed in post #80.

Job said "After the skin worms destroy this body,yet in my flesh I shall see God.Whom I shall see for myself and mine eyes shall behold and not another,though my reins be consumed within me."

"in my flesh I shall see Him"


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Well Hobbs,that's a lot to process.And don't get me wrong,there's definitely a spiritual aspect to it I agree.But,as far as our resurrection, I contend that there's a physical aspect also.We must rightly devide the two as I showed in post #80.
> 
> Job said "After the skin worms destroy this body,yet in my flesh I shall see God.Whom I shall see for myself and mine eyes shall behold and not another,though my reins be consumed within me."
> 
> "in my flesh I shall see Him"




And in his flesh Job did see Him, I've answered this before.
 I'm curious of all we have covered, what do you make of the timing of the resurrection in Daniel 12: 1-9, being when the power of the Holy People is crushed? If that wasn't 70ad, what was/ is it?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> And in his flesh Job did see Him, I've answered this before.
> I'm curious of all we have covered, what do you make of the timing of the resurrection in Daniel 12: 1-9, being when the power of the Holy People is crushed? If that wasn't 70ad, what was/ is it?



When did Job see God in his flesh with his eyes?


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## hobbs27

Job 42:5


----------



## Flash

hobbs27 said:


> I don't know if it was the cloud cover that saved us or what, but John Hagee is officially a false prophet!



 I thought all Hagee said was 'something big concerning Israel' would happen. 

*IF*  the nuclear agreement has we will defend Iran if attacked by Israel in it,  Isn't that something big concerning Israel???      Not defending Hagee, just throwing it out there.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

hobbs27 said:


> Job 42:5



John 1:18

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Job 42:5



Jobs body had not been destroyed by the skin worms nor his reins consumed within him.Also,as Job is one of the oldest books of the bible,I don't think it would have been the "latter" day either.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Job 19:26
Does it say "in my flesh I will see God" or "from my flesh I shall see God?"

If it means Job will see God from his resurrected flesh, where did Job go when he died a physical death? He didn't get to see God in the interim? 
Was Job resurrected at Christ's first coming? Those Old Testament saints physically resurrecting at Christ's resurrection keeps confusing me. Were those resurrections physical? 
Did Job need flesh to see God and did he have to wait for this resurrection?


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> Job 42:5


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Jobs body had not been destroyed by the skin worms nor his reins consumed within him.Also,as Job is one of the oldest books of the bible,I don't think it would have been the "latter" day either.



Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

 I don't see in this where he is required to see God after his flesh is destroyed, but to the contrary...even though I will die and my flesh will rot, I will see God in my flesh. To me this points to seeing Him before he dies.


(NE Pappy 

John 1:18

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. )

I understand John 1:18 very well. I also understand that Moses saw God in various ways, so my conclusion to this is whatever the context of seeing God was in Job 19 is the context of how Job saw God in Job 42.

Job 42:5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
But now my eye sees You.

6 
Therefore I abhor myself,
And repent in dust and ashes.”


----------



## hobbs27

Flash said:


> I thought all Hagee said was 'something big concerning Israel' would happen.
> 
> *IF*  the nuclear agreement has we will defend Iran if attacked by Israel in it,  Isn't that something big concerning Israel???      Not defending Hagee, just throwing it out there.



He has been back peddling big time but watch this video with his own words as he spouts out Joel 2. He was doing this to up book sales.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
> 
> I don't see in this where he is required to see God after his flesh is destroyed, but to the contrary...even though I will die and my flesh will rot, I will see God in my flesh. To me this points to seeing Him before he dies.
> 
> 
> (NE Pappy
> 
> John 1:18
> 
> No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. )
> 
> I understand John 1:18 very well. I also understand that Moses saw God in various ways, so my conclusion to this is whatever the context of seeing God was in Job 19 is the context of how Job saw God in Job 42.
> 
> Job 42:5 “I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear,
> But now my eye sees You.
> 
> 6
> Therefore I abhor myself,
> And repent in dust and ashes.”



Unless there's another meaning for the word "after",I think it means that the skin worms will destroy his body prior to him seeing God.Otherwise,it seems to contradict John 1:18 as already stated.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Unless there's another meaning for the word "after",I think it means that the skin worms will destroy his body prior to him seeing God.Otherwise,it seems to contradict John 1:18 as already stated.



So , you believe Job is saying this from the grave? He said " Now my eyes see you". 

Does Moses seeing God contradict John 1:18?
 If so, we have a problem and it ain't my problem, I've stated that whatever context Job said he would see God in Job 19 is the same context in which he is seeing Him in Job 42.

I'm willing to say that is different than John 1:18 , but. I really don't have the time at this moment to study it.

What say you? Job sees God, Moses saw God, John 1:18 says no man has seen God.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I've stated that whatever context Job said he would see God in Job 19 is the same context in which he is seeing Him in Job 42.



How do you know it's the same context?
It can't be because of the word "after" and because of John 1:18.

Job's not saying any of this from the grave because the last chapter says he lived another 140 years.He's saying what will take place after he dies.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> How do you know it's the same context?
> It can't be because of the word "after" and because of John 1:18.
> 
> Job's not saying any of this from the grave because the last chapter says he lived another 140 years.He's saying what will take place after he dies.



I'm hitting the road to deer camp, I'll look into all the verses concerning man seeing God, and exegetevJob 19 & 42, and get back with you. I would appreciate an answer on Daniel 12:1-9 also thanks.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I'm hitting the road to deer camp, I'll look into all the verses concerning man seeing God, and exegetevJob 19 & 42, and get back with you. I would appreciate an answer on Daniel 12:1-9 also thanks.



OK brother.Hope you get a big one!


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> He has been back peddling big time but watch this video with his own words as he spouts out Joel 2. He was doing this to up book sales.



To everybody reading,
Don't waste your time on the above sermon by Hagge; I wasted my time for you.  He made no prediction that can be shown false.  Over 75 minutes wasted.  Additionally, he is no preacher of the gospel, and the 2 or 3 one-sentence truths that I heard were far overshadowed by very, very bad scripture interpretation; top dressed with, almost as bad, American Nationalism.

He made a pre-trib statement in his summation, which  probably identifies the reason for the Preterists castigating him; it can't be his exegetical style, which is similar to theirs.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> How do you know it's the same context?
> It can't be because of the word "after" and because of John 1:18.
> 
> Job's not saying any of this from the grave because the last chapter says he lived another 140 years.He's saying what will take place after he dies.



I never got an answer on if Job has seen God "in his flesh" after he died? 
Have you seen any interpretations say "from his flesh" or does that mean the same thing?

I was going to suggest 1 Corinthians 15:29 suggesting physical resurrections but I see where you believe this was just about the resurrection of Jesus.

If to be dead means to be with the Lord and our spirit returns to God, then it would appear we'll see God at our physical deaths before we receive our new glorified bodies.

Also when living people see God, could it be God in the form of Jesus? This could answer John 1:18.


----------



## hobbs27

hummerpoo said:


> To everybody reading,
> Don't waste your time on the above sermon by Hagge; I wasted my time for you.  He made no prediction that can be shown false.  Over 75 minutes wasted.  Additionally, he is no preacher of the gospel, and the 2 or 3 one-sentence truths that I heard were far overshadowed by very, very bad scripture interpretation; top dressed with, almost as bad, American Nationalism.
> 
> He made a pre-trib statement in his summation, which  probably identifies the reason for the Preterists castigating him; it can't be his exegetical style, which is similar to theirs.



I'm sorry it took you 75 minutes to watch a 10 minute video. The first few if you know scripture and prophecy is all that's needed.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Reading back through the Book of Job we see that God allowed Satan to give Job's skin/flesh worms. (Is "allow" the correct word?)

Job 7:5
My body is clothed with worms and scabs, my skin is broken and festering.

Now considering the state Job is in he knew that even from his flesh he would see God. That even after Satan has been allowed destroy his flesh, he would still see God. We know that later god made his skin new.

Job 19:20
I am nothing but skin and bones; I have escaped only by the skin of my teeth.

Again the thought he was dying from an incurable disease that was robbing him of his flesh. He believed that even without flesh, he would still see God.


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> I'm sorry it took you 75 minutes to watch a 10 minute video. The first few if you know scripture and prophecy is all that's needed.



Try again.


----------



## hobbs27

hummerpoo said:


> Try again.



I don't believe it can be more simple and explained any better than here:http://americanvision.org/12510/john-hagee-false-prophet-and-the-antidote/


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> I don't believe it can be more simple and explained any better than here:http://americanvision.org/12510/john-hagee-false-prophet-and-the-antidote/



^^This article does not help your case.The author wants so badly to be able to say John Hagee is setting dates so he can say AHH HAA.He wasn't able to do that.He only slandered him...pathetic.


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> I don't believe it can be more simple and explained any better than here:http://americanvision.org/12510/john-hagee-false-prophet-and-the-antidote/





welderguy said:


> ^^This article does not help your case.The author wants so badly to be able to say John Hagee is setting dates so he can say AHH HAA.He wasn't able to do that.He only slandered him...pathetic.



Please understand that few would be more pleased than me if tomorrow morning Hagee walked into an empty building.

However, what I read of the information provided can be divided into two categories: that which puts words into Hagee's mouth, and that which accuses him holding to an incorrect interpretation; both of which play right into Hagee’s hand.
My opinion; both are “tickling ears”, and their impiety will bring Glory to God.


----------



## hobbs27

Y'all are a hoot! The good Lord has given me plenty of patience for these kinds of disagreements, blessing me with a dad that was as hard headed and stubborn as any mule and three daughters that will swear the sky is red if I say blue.
 It is what it is, the question is only what " is" is?
 Have a great day guys, Im spending some time in the woods.


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> Y'all are a hoot! The good Lord has given me plenty of patience for these kinds of disagreements, blessing me with a dad that was as hard headed and stubborn as any mule and three daughters that will swear the sky is red if I say blue.
> It is what it is, the question is only what " is" is?
> Have a great day guys, Im spending some time in the woods.



Boy do I understand; it's sometimes becomes very trying to deal with those who are satisfied with 10 min. out of a 75 min. sermon, and read the Bible the same way.


----------



## welderguy

question-How can "soon" and "at hand" mean 2000 years later?

easy answer-one day with the Lord is as a thousand years; and a thousand years is as one day.


----------



## Israel

I know how easy it is to get slogged down by histories, seemingly vast expanses of years, an almost uncanny perception by intimation that "I" (or, we) "have been waiting so (or, too) long".

But, my wait is brief, my life a vapor, my time...infinitesimal. 

I am told "Behold, I come quickly"...when I believe that...simply because of all things that may "be believed" I am brought to believe...only Him...I do see someone coming, and whom I see, is far more than enough. 

Till then, I am inclined to argue...to make a sense of things that were never given to me to consider.

And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awaken out of sleep; for now is our salvation nearer than when we first believed.

I believe this. If each moment turn to hour, and each hour turn to aeons. My own life still remains a vapor.

Let me ask those who are carried away in imagination. When  "Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me."
Does one "imagine" it would be such a miraculous thing for a man to live to 70? 80?
Evidently there was enough implied in this that one thought it prudent to clarify what was said against what certainly was not said.

Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

It would surely appear that the misinterpretation of what was said implied a miraculously lengthy span, to say the least.


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## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> I know how easy it is to get slogged down by histories, seemingly vast expanses of years, an almost uncanny perception by intimation that "I" (or, we) "have been waiting so (or, too) long".
> 
> But, my wait is brief, my life a vapor, my time...infinitesimal.
> 
> I am told "Behold, I come quickly"...when I believe that...simply because of all things that may "be believed" I am brought to believe...only Him...I do see someone coming, and whom I see, is far more than enough.
> 
> Till then, I am inclined to argue...to make a sense of things that were never given to me to consider.
> 
> And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awaken out of sleep; for now is our salvation nearer than when we first believed.
> 
> I believe this. If each moment turn to hour, and each hour turn to aeons. My own life still remains a vapor.
> 
> Let me ask those who are carried away in imagination. When  "Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me."
> Does one "imagine" it would be such a miraculous thing for a man to live to 70? 80?
> Evidently there was enough implied in this that one thought it prudent to clarify what was said against what certainly was not said.
> 
> Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?
> 
> It would surely appear that the misinterpretation of what was said implied a miraculously lengthy span, to say the least.



Hoping I understand your point.

Jesus initiated a conversation with Peter in which He instructed him as to his ministry, then about his death, followed by:
19 Now this He said, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, “Follow Me!”
20 Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?”
21 So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?”
22 Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!”
23 Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?”

Auto-focus or Manual focus?
There are three potential points of focus in the above passage: Christ, people, and time.
Christ set the focus on Himself.
Peter changed it to people.
Christ changed it back to Himself.
“the brethren”, missing what Christ had done, went to people and time.
John pointed out the error.

There are four possibilities for the photo we produce:
Completely out of focus
Focused on Christ
Focused on people
Or focused on people and time.

Working lens choice into the analogy works pretty well also (high telephoto distorts depth of field, macro produces shallow depth of field, etc.)


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## Israel

hummerpoo said:


> Hoping I understand your point.
> 
> Jesus initiated a conversation with Peter in which He instructed him as to his ministry, then about his death, followed by:
> 19 Now this He said, signifying by what kind of death he would glorify God. And when He had spoken this, He said to him, “Follow Me!”
> 20 Peter, turning around, saw the disciple whom Jesus loved following them; the one who also had leaned back on His bosom at the supper and said, “Lord, who is the one who betrays You?”
> 21 So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?”
> 22 Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!”
> 23 Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; yet Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?”
> 
> Auto-focus or Manual focus?
> There are three potential points of focus in the above passage: Christ, people, and time.
> Christ set the focus on Himself.
> Peter changed it to people.
> Christ changed it back to Himself.
> “the brethren”, missing what Christ had done, went to people and time.
> John pointed out the error.
> 
> There are four possibilities for the photo we produce:
> Completely out of focus
> Focused on Christ
> Focused on people
> Or focused on people and time.
> 
> Working lens choice into the analogy works pretty well also (high telephoto distorts depth of field, macro produces shallow depth of field, etc.)



Thank you. 

Yes, When the focus is on Christ, time takes its proper place, as do people. As "I" too, must, as a people.


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## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Yes, When the focus is on Christ, time takes its proper place, as do people. As "I" too, must, as a people.



There is a lot of talk about choices.
Should that talk be about focus?
Without a doubt we feel what we call confusion … should “I” or should “I” not.
Perhaps that is when we are out of focus.
It seems the rest that God promises comes only from “You follow Me”.


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## hobbs27

There's a lot in those last verses of John. It is not wise to focus on any singular part or say one is more important than the other. 

If your quest is to focus on Christ , focus on the whole of Christ, not just what fits for you. Peter was told " you follow me", He was also told it was nothing to him if Jesus chose to save John till His coming.

The others started a rumor that John would never die, but that's not what Jesus said.

 Following Jesus is knowing Jesus..All of Jesus, the Jesus that keeps His word!


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## hobbs27

Thanks to welderguy for wishing me a big one this weekend. Next time a simple " good luck" will be sufficient. I killed a 55 1/2 " Timber Rattler.
I believe Art is on to something in his last post. I'm still trying to work out the " seeing God" that Job and Moses did with John 1:18.

 I have seen two schools of thought. 1. They saw Jesus and 2. They saw something representative of God as in the burning bush.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Thanks to welderguy for wishing me a big one this weekend. Next time a simple " good luck" will be sufficient. I killed a 55 1/2 " Timber Rattler.



Sorry Hobbs.glad you're ok.any pics?


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Sorry Hobbs.glad you're ok.any pics?



I do, but I'm having a hard time attaching them to GON for some reason.


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Thanks to welderguy for wishing me a big one this weekend. Next time a simple " good luck" will be sufficient. I killed a 55 1/2 " Timber Rattler.
> I believe Art is on to something in his last post. I'm still trying to work out the " seeing God" that Job and Moses did with John 1:18.
> 
> I have seen two schools of thought. 1. They saw Jesus and 2. They saw something representative of God as in the burning bush.






Exodus 33:20 (KJV) And he said , Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live .


When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee  Thy face, LORD, will I seek. Psalm 27:8


Job says:  And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;... Job (19:26)

Jesus says: Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God.  ( beautitude)

 And John says this:

18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

What I understand John is saying is that no man has seen the Savior yet, as per his description in scripture, since man of faith has been waiting for Him, the only begotten Son, up to this point in time,  but our Jesus is Him.


 With time God informed  people of faith to seek the face of God and not only to seek His face in the spirit but bodily. And I suppose it is true that both needed to die if this was to happen-- which is what is achieved in the Savior.

For me this not seeing and seeing is man's story of faith.  The man of faith prays and hopes. God knowing what man needs answers prayers--even when the saints don't know how and for what to pray. From " if you see my face you will die" to the command to " seek my face" demands much faith. Not unlike Abraham's.

When Abraham set to sacrifice his son as was commanded, did his son die? I think that perhaps "seeking the face" is in the same league.  By comparison to the ancients, we have it pretty easy, the savior they sought to intervene in the world now lives-- and if I understand John's gospel correctly, and  John 1:18 Jesus is Him. Do you see ?


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## hobbs27

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-7-october-ebible-fellowship?CMP=share_btn_fb

Tonight is the last night...


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## hobbs27

Agree or not. Hagee has been added to the wiki list of date setters through his four blood moons debacle.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events


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## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> Exodus 33:20 (KJV) And he said , Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live .
> 
> 
> When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee  Thy face, LORD, will I seek. Psalm 27:8
> 
> 
> Job says:  And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God;... Job (19:26)
> 
> Jesus says: Blessed are the pure of heart, for they shall see God.  ( beautitude)
> 
> And John says this:
> 
> 18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
> 
> What I understand John is saying is that no man has seen the Savior yet, as per his description in scripture, since man of faith has been waiting for Him, the only begotten Son, up to this point in time,  but our Jesus is Him.
> 
> 
> With time God informed  people of faith to seek the face of God and not only to seek His face in the spirit but bodily. And I suppose it is true that both needed to die if this was to happen-- which is what is achieved in the Savior.
> 
> For me this not seeing and seeing is man's story of faith.  The man of faith prays and hopes. God knowing what man needs answers prayers--even when the saints don't know how and for what to pray. From " if you see my face you will die" to the command to " seek my face" demands much faith. Not unlike Abraham's.
> 
> When Abraham set to sacrifice his son as was commanded, did his son die? I think that perhaps "seeking the face" is in the same league.  By comparison to the ancients, we have it pretty easy, the savior they sought to intervene in the world now lives-- and if I understand John's gospel correctly, and  John 1:18 Jesus is Him. Do you see ?



Maybe to see God or his face isn't literal but spiritual. Maybe Adam saw God's face and died. It's probably something spiritual and deeper than seeing a physical face. A blind man can see God.


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## hummerpoo

The “source” identified (a Fox News segment on 10/16/13) is only 7:36 min. on this one (you can jump to the 5:10 point and get the vital stuff).



hobbs27 said:


> Agree or not. Hagee has been added to the wiki list of date setters through his four blood moons debacle.
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events



Lauren Green is, in my opinion, and excellent journalist.  She nails the issue down.
Again, Hagee does not predict an event or a time.  To my surprise, the only scriptural interpretation that I identified was Acts 2 (He mentioned the 7 days, but applied no interpretation that I caught).


Hagee is a little smarter than this guy.  Hagee just presents facts in a way that can be misinterpreted by end times fanatics; McCann assigns likelihood.



hobbs27 said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-7-october-ebible-fellowship?CMP=share_btn_fb
> 
> Tonight is the last night...



“'There’s a strong likelihood that this will happen,' McCann said, although he did leave some room for error: 'Which means there’s an unlikely possibility that it will not.'”


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## hobbs27

hummerpoo said:


> Hagee is a little smarter than this guy.  Hagee just presents facts in a way that can be misinterpreted by end times fanatics; McCann assigns likelihood.
> 
> .'”



I spend most of my free time debating eschatology with JW's now. Their eschatology is essential to their faith, so once you tear that down they must admit they have fallen for a false and dangerous teaching.

 Hagee does the same thing JW's do in spreading their beliefs. Hagee reflects on Acts 2 as Peter tells of the signs in heaven starting at verse 19. His entire argument is easily defeated by just backing up to verse 14, and in verse 16 where Peter declares ( this is that.) Well if Peter declared the events as ( This is That) Then it was fulfilled at Pentecost, it is that simple.

Hagee is a false teacher, and not only mistranslates but misrepresents Gods word.


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## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> Hagee is a false teacher, and not only mistranslates but misrepresents Gods word.



Indeed, as do many others.
But
What is the warrant for making false statements about false teachers?
[That is from the Quran, by some interpretations]


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-7-october-ebible-fellowship?CMP=share_btn_fb
> 
> Tonight is the last night...




Well to add hot spice to the gumbo. Russia is bombing "western" allies in Syria today via curse missles from ships 900 miles away in broad daylight. Launched from the Caspian Sea, they flew over Iran and Iraq to reach their targets.

The areas bombed in Syria--just happens to to be very close  to where  the Egyptian Pharoah was made famous as a demi-god warrior and Egypt famous during the days of Moses. ( This last bit is the spice.)


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## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> Well to add hot spice to the gumbo. Russia is bombing "western" allies in Syria today via curse missles from ships 900 miles away in broad daylight. Launched from the Caspian Sea, they flew over Iran and Iraq to reach their targets.
> 
> The areas bombed in Syria--just happens to to be very close  to where  the Egyptian Pharoah was made famous as a demi-god warrior and Egypt famous during the days of Moses. ( This last bit is the spice.)



 I'm still here. Survived yet another end time event! 

 There's always going to be news headlines and they are never going to be another chapter in the Bible.

On Damascus: http://americanvision.org/9371/isaiah-17-damascus-bible-prophecy-has-been-fulfilled/


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I'm still here. Survived yet another end time event!
> 
> There's always going to be news headlines and they are never going to be another chapter in the Bible.
> 
> On Damascus: http://americanvision.org/9371/isaiah-17-damascus-bible-prophecy-has-been-fulfilled/



You mean it's gonna always be this way?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> You mean it's gonna always be this way?




Well there is a better place a waiting. If earth was paradise for the wicked, who would seek refuge in Christ?


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Well there is a better place a waiting. If earth was paradise for the wicked, who would seek refuge in Christ?



People like Asaph .(Psalm.73)
He became very discouraged by the prosperity of the wicked.Until he considered their end.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> People like Asaph .(Psalm.73)
> He became very discouraged by the prosperity of the wicked.Until he considered their end.



The most prosperous man may outwardly look happy and at peace without Christ, but I assure you they are miserable spiritually.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> The most prosperous man may outwardly look happy and at peace without Christ, but I assure you they are miserable spiritually.



I agree.

I believe that without Christ,he is spiritually dead.He needs to be made alive(regenerated),by the Holy Spirit.


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## hobbs27

Can we now put a fork in this?  I hear the book is almost free now to anyone that would buy it.


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