# 22 cal centerfire law change



## xtreme05

I know this has been talked about this befor but the law really needs to be change.Awhile back an ex-dnr officer killed a fox with a 223 which is against the law and it shoudnt be.Shore 22 cal rimfire is fine if your shootin a fox or bobcat from ten feet that is in a trap but any thing over 50 yards is just not enough.Our job as hunters is to kill as cleanly as possible.More powerful weapons mean quicker kills that fact not opion.If your predator hunting in GA and you carry a weapon large enough to cleanly kill a yote you cant shoot bobs or foxes.You dont know which is comin in.I think 22 cal centerfire should be legal at least.And i would like to know who agrees with me and who does not.Pros and cons.How could we get it change?Dnr advice would be great if theres any out there.Ps sorry for spelling


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## Ohoopee Tusker

I wouldn't have a problem if they changed the law to centerfire but my .22 mag. (rimfire) will kill one way past 50 yards.


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## Ohoopee Tusker

Senoj said:


> Im not 100% clear on the law...are you saying its illegal to use a centerfire rifle on fox and bobcat? Rimfire only? To be honest, i have never heard that. Guess its not a popular topic. I have seen them both shot with whatever the deer hunter took with them on that hunt. They dont call the newspaper to let them know each time though.



In the short time I've been a member on this forum I've seen several people post up kills with centerfire rifles and then get in hot water.


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## treemanjohn

Senoj said:


> Im not 100% clear on the law...are you saying its illegal to use a centerfire rifle on fox and bobcat? Rimfire only? To be honest, i have never heard that. Guess its not a popular topic.


It's a very popular topic. It's been printed millions of times in every copy of the Georgia hunting regulations


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## jguess

i think 22cal centerfires should be legal . i shoot a 223 for yotes and a 22mag for fox and bobcats .but hunting at night makes it ruff when you take a body shot with the 22mag and have to trail a bobcat or fox with very little blood trail. knock on wood i aint never lost one with my magnum but for a novice shooter shooting head shots at night aint easy


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## xtreme05

deepwoodshermit said:


> I wouldn't have a problem if they changed the law to centerfire but my .22 mag. (rimfire) will kill one way past 50 yards.



Didnt say rimfire wouldnt kill one past 50 yards just not enough gun.It can also kill a deer if you have to head shot an animal to keep from trackin it a long way its not enough gun.Yes with good shot placement it can be done.But if they adment it or not most not all of us dont always have perfect shot placement.


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## bigalshootmupper

I think they should change it to .22 cal centerfire or rimfire or smaller for varmint and .243 cal centerfire or larger for deer.  Not many shoot .223 for deer so this would fix the problem and keep deer hunters from harvesting varmint.


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## LEON MANLEY

Senoj said:


> Oh. Ive been a member of the forum for only a couple months so ive missed the threads. I also dont read the regulations each year. I just google the limits of the few common animals i hunt and the dates for the season and weapon used. If i were to begin hunting more game then i would research it but ive not had too. I have shot several coyotes from the stand but havent came across a fox or bobcat. Good thing because they would have been shot with whatever i had and it wouldnt have been a rimfire. Anyway, i feel a centerfire rifle should be legal otherwise, the 100 and 200 yard sightings would be just that.



If it's a yote he's going to get hit or dodge the bullet, because I will shoot at him and don't care how far off he is.


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## Throwback

i'm 40 years old and it's been this way all my life as far as I know. It isn't anything new. If you don't read the regs and shoot something illegally it's no one's fault  but yours. 

T


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## Throwback

deepwoodshermit said:


> In the short time I've been a member on this forum I've seen several people post up kills with centerfire rifles and then get in hot water.



you can't stop stupid. 


T


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## Throwback

bigalshootmupper said:


> I think they should change it to .22 cal centerfire or rimfire or smaller for varmint and .243 cal centerfire or larger for deer.  Not many shoot .223 for deer so this would fix the problem and keep deer hunters from harvesting varmint.



a bunch of people including my 12 year old son, shoot deer quite effectively with a 223. 

I know a LOT of people that have lost wounded deer that have shot them with belted magnums. 




T


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## 10gaugemeow

Wat we need is a big bore rim fire like that had in the civil war.  56-50 spencer


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## Nicodemus

Senoj said:


> Easy big fella. I know what i need to know. If i saw a bobcat this evening from the stand, guess what? Yep.





Just curious, why shoot it with something that is gonna tear it up to bad to use?


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## Alaska

Fox & Bobcat Statewide December 1 – February 28 No Limit
SMALL GAME & FURBEARER FIREARMS
• Rifles and Handguns: Any .22-cal. or
smaller rimfire, air rifle, or any muzzleloading
firearm.

condensed  it for those who need


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## NCHillbilly

Nicodemus said:


> Just curious, why shoot it with something that is gonna tear it up to bad to use?



Because many people are more interested in killing something than in using it.


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## Senoj

I never planned on using it. I do plan to use the turkeys it doesent kill. ;.)


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## Nicodemus

You worried about bobcats killin` off the turkeys?


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## Alaska

Senoj said:


> I also dont read the regulations each year. I just google the limits of the few common animals i hunt and the dates for the season and weapon used. If i were to begin hunting more game then i would research it but ive not had too. I have shot several coyotes from the stand but havent came across a fox or bobcat. Good thing because they would have been shot with whatever i had and it wouldnt have been a rimfire. .





Senoj said:


> Easy big fella. I know what i need to know. If i saw a bobcat this evening from the stand, guess what? Yep.





Senoj said:


> I never planned on using it. I do plan to use the turkeys it doesent kill. ;.)



odd mindset,
Illegal shooting for  ethical hunting.   ?


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## Senoj

nothing illegal. I have never shot bobcat/fox. 

Not odd. You will find 95% or more members in this forum operate with the same "odd mindset" then you have the uptight that like to blow out of proportion the killing of useless animals.


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## Nicodemus

Senoj said:


> nothing illegal. I have never shot bobcat/fox.
> 
> Not odd. You will find 95% or more members in this forum operate with the same "odd mindset" then you have the uptight that like to blow out of proportion the killing of useless animals.





Show me proof of that. Of the 95 percent. Can you?


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## Senoj

Nicodemus said:


> Show me proof of that. Of the 95 percent. Can you?



No i cant show proof.


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## Senoj

guess what i should have said is based on people i know personally and alot of users on the gon forum there are most likely a large percentage that will kill a fox or bobcat if they had the opportunity, even if they werent using a rimfire rifle. 

I dont hunt them or have anything against them but i dont see any reason they are different than  a coyote as far as uselessness. IMO, its more ethical to shoot one with a deer rifle than a .22 rimfire


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## Nicodemus

Senoj, you might not realize, bobcats and turkeys have co-existed together for thousands of years. If they were gonna wipe em out, it would have happened long ago. Nothin` is wrong with takin` a bobcat, within legal means. They are a renewable resource. What is wrong is just shootin` it and lettin` it go to waste. They serve a good purpose too. They are far from useless.


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## Senoj

You mean sell the pelts? I dont know anybody that slaps bobcat burgers on the grill, lol. I understand what you are telling me. For whatever reason, i have never viewed predators on the same plane as game animals. No reason why i suppose but i just havent. Im glad they are around, especially coyotes. Its fun to try to get on one. I appreciate predators for the sport they provide, thats about it though.


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## Nicodemus

Yea, a lot of uninformed folks begrudge predators, because they think that predators take game that only man should have the right to take. You should study up on them. They are interestin` critters, and much more than just a target.


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## Senoj

Opoligy to the OP for derailing his thread. It is supposed to be a discussion on the law of using centerfire on small game. 

My opinion is a .22 centerfire such as the .223 or 22.250 should be legal on cats and fox. It should allow for less wounded and suffering fox and bobcats


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## NCHillbilly

There is no such thing as a useless animal. Viewing some animals as useless really highlights someone's glaring ignorance of how nature works, and is the attitude that led to the nearly complete destruction of our wildlife a century or two ago. Personally, I see a bobcat as a lot more interesting critter than a turkey, but both have their place and no animal is worth more than another in the overall scheme of things. I've killed bobcats before, but never just because I thought the world would be better off without them. I've also let a lot of them walk over the years when I didn't have a need for a cat hide and just enjoyed watching them. Same with foxes and yotes.


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## xtreme05

That circle of life ever animal is important as the next went out when humans over populated the world.Thats why we have regs.I think some of you have watched the Lion King to many times.I think biggame should 243 and up aswell.My son started hunting with a 243 when he was 7 no problems.If 243 was to much i would have waited till he was older to hunt.
If a bobcat is worthless or not is a little of topic dont you think.


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## Nicodemus

xtreme05 said:


> That circle of life ever animal is important as the next went out when humans over populated the world.Thats why we have regs.I think some of you have watched the Lion King to many times.I think biggame should 243 and up aswell.My son started hunting with a 243 when he was 7 no problems.If 243 was to much i would have waited till he was older to hunt.
> If a bobcat is worthless or not is a little of topic dont you think.




My apologies for the off topic comments. Say the word and I will clean your thread up. 

BTW I never saw the lion king, or any of that trash. I did read Aldo Leopold though.


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## NCHillbilly

Nicodemus said:


> My apologies for the off topic comments. Say the word and I will clean your thread up.
> 
> BTW I never saw the lion king, or any of that trash. I did read Aldo Leopold though.



x2. The laws of nature haven't changed. We are just too big for our own britches and have too big of an opinion of ourselves, especially those who never get out of suburbia and learned to hunt from watching the buckmasters tv show. Sand County Almanac should be required reading for anyone who buys a piece of land or a hunting license. To keep this on topic, most of the bobcats I've killed were with a .22 LR, and they pretty much dropped in their tracks. Foxes aren't hard to kill either. Yotes are tougher, but I shot one with a .30/06 once, and couldn't even use the hide-it was overkill to say the least. It's already legal in GA  to shoot yotes with a centerfire, and you don't really need it for foxes and bobcats anyway. It's legal here in NC to shoot all of the above with a .458 magnum if you wish to.


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## xtreme05

NCHillbilly said:


> x2. The laws of nature haven't changed. We are just too big for our own britches and have too big of an opinion of ourselves, especially those who never get out of suburbia and learned to hunt from watching the buckmasters tv show. Sand County Almanac should be required reading for anyone who buys a piece of land or a hunting license. To keep this on topic, most of the bobcats I've killed were with a .22 LR, and they pretty much dropped in their tracks. Foxes aren't hard to kill either. Yotes are tougher, but I shot one with a .30/06 once, and couldn't even use the hide-it was overkill to say the least. It's already legal in GA  to shoot yotes with a centerfire, and you don't really need it for foxes and bobcats anyway. It's legal here in NC to shoot all of the above with a .458 magnum if you wish to.


I think Blue Ridge is a long way from suburbia.But i still see wild animal affected buy humans every day.BTW bet you never shot a bob or fox at 150+yardswith a 22lr .But thanks for the feedback just want to know what GA hunters think about changen the law.


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## jguess

i still beleive a 22mag is enuff for fox and bobcat. but its ODD that you can use a rimfire,airrifle, or any MUZZLELOADER for smallgame . they aint much differance in a 50cal muzzleloader than any deer hunting rifle i got IMO. no one is a perfect shot every time i  just try to keep it ethical as possible and dont take shots i dont feel comfortable with


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## NCHillbilly

xtreme05 said:


> I think Blue Ridge is a long way from suburbia.But i still see wild animal affected buy humans every day.BTW bet you never shot a bob or fox at 150+yardswith a 22lr .But thanks for the feedback just want to know what GA hunters think about changen the law.



Nope, I've never really felt the need to shoot at a fox or bobcat at 150+ yards. I usually prefer to hunt instead of snipe.


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## xtreme05

NCHillbilly said:


> Nope, I've never really felt the need to shoot at a fox or bobcat at 150+ yards. I usually prefer to hunt instead of snipe.



To be honest i havent ether but would liketo have  the opion.I varmint hunt farm land sometimes and shots can be long.I like to hunt up close as well.And most shots I have taken on any game are  under 50.But if your saying that people who take game outside 150 arent real hunters your just trying to pick a fight.Diffrent people enojy diffrent parts of hunting.Just because you dont enjoy that aspect of OUR sport doesnt make you a better hunter.


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## Coastie

When foxes and bobcats are reclassified from furbearers to nuisance animals you will be able to shoot them with whatever you want, until then, a .22 rimfire should be the weapon of choice.
At this point in time they are a fairly valuable comodity and should be treated as such. While the fur market is down there is still a market for the furs from both species of fox and bobcats as well, a large bobcat with a well marked belly can bring up to $160.00 in some markets so why would anybody want to tear it up with a centerfire round?


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## NCHillbilly

xtreme05 said:


> To be honest i havent ether but would liketo have  the opion.I varmint hunt farm land sometimes and shots can be long.I like to hunt up close as well.And most shots I have taken on any game are  under 50.But if your saying that people who take game outside 150 arent real hunters your just trying to pick a fight.Diffrent people enojy diffrent parts of hunting.Just because you dont enjoy that aspect of OUR sport doesnt make you a better hunter.



Nope, not saying that at all, and I'm not trying to pick a fight. I agree wholeheartedly-just saying that I don't get into long range hunting myself. Shot a deer or two at long range over the years, but I usually like to hunt in the woods where you can't see that far.  Nothing wrong with hunting however you want to IMO.


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## LanceColeman

Alaska said:


> Fox & Bobcat Statewide December 1 – February 28 No Limit
> SMALL GAME & FURBEARER FIREARMS
> • Rifles and Handguns: Any .22-cal. or
> smaller rimfire, air rifle, *or any muzzleloading
> firearm.*condensed  it for those who need



Yo Nic,

check it. they got the answer layin right there in front of em. Ya wanna bit bigger than a 22 mag?? wanna challenge?? INSIDE the legal laws?? there ya go right there boys. More fun than should be legal.






And they D-R-T.


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## iowa-boy

bigalshootmupper said:


> I think they should change it to .22 cal centerfire or rimfire or smaller for varmint and .243 cal centerfire or larger for deer.  Not many shoot .223 for deer so this would fix the problem and keep deer hunters from harvesting varmint.



i know of 6 on our lease including the wife that hunt with .223. for deer  and that .223 does less damage to the pelt than most except that .22 mag.


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## xtreme05

Coastie said:


> When foxes and bobcats are reclassified from furbearers to nuisance animals you will be able to shoot them with whatever you want, until then, a .22 rimfire should be the weapon of choice.
> At this point in time they are a fairly valuable comodity and should be treated as such. While the fur market is down there is still a market for the furs from both species of fox and bobcats as well, a large bobcat with a well marked belly can bring up to $160.00 in some markets so why would anybody want to tear it up with a centerfire round?



If people want to sell there pelts thats great but not everybody does.Hunting is not about hunting money to me.People should be able to do what they want with legaly havested game.Plus 22 centerfire doesnt tear up pelts to bad i shoot groundhog with my 221 fireball all the time doesnt tear them up at all just gives me a little more range.


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## j_seph

Nothing like hearing the leaves crunching in the dark at 20 yards. I see no problem with regs the way they are either.


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## bigreddwon

Does anyone know why the law is the way it is? Whats the DNR's reasoning for keeping it the way it reads for so long? Throwback mentioned its been around for over 40 years he knows about, the centerfire/rimfire bullets that were available then were very limited compared to now. Hand loading wasn't near as popular or easy as it is now. Were any of these factors?

 It could be argued that the serious varmint, or predator type hunter could load a 223 that wouldn't tear up valuable pelts but still drop a yote, hog or a deer. Especially centerfire with frangible to copper to varmint rounds and such. I'd rather take one weapon into the field with the ability to shoot different loads for different situations /critters than to have to take two weapons to hunt. 

 I have no problem hunting the way the law reads now, I'm looking forward to taking my first bobcat soon with a mouth call and a .25 cal PCP pellet rifle. Ill post a picture for sure


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## Bruz

So far I've killed on Bobcat with a 50 Cal ML with Irons....and one Yote with a 40gr Green Tag out of a Marlin 15YN with a 4x.







The Bobcat mounted up fine after a 295gr Powerbelt. The bullet exited just behind the front leg.


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## treemanjohn

In Georgia Bobcats and Foxes are considered fur bearers so a rimfire rifle is custom made for pelt salvage. Also Muzzle loaders today are nothing like the use to be, they use to be considered a primitive weapon (flintlock/percussion types). I think they should remove inline or scoped muzzloaders from the regs. 

I also believe the should allow .22 rimfire for Turkey hunting and take away modern muzzle loaders


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## wrestler

treemanjohn said:


> In Georgia Bobcats and Foxes are considered fur bearers so a rimfire rifle is custom made for pelt salvage. Also Muzzle loaders today are nothing like the use to be, they use to be considered a primitive weapon (flintlock/percussion types). I think they should remove inline or scoped muzzloaders from the regs.
> 
> I also believe the should allow .22 rimfire for Turkey hunting and take away modern muzzle loaders



a .22 for turkey? thats true hardcore right there. if that ever comes through i'll load up my 10/22's 25 rd mag and light that old tom up


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## dawg2

deepwoodshermit said:


> I wouldn't have a problem if they changed the law to centerfire but my .22 mag. (rimfire) will kill one way past 50 yards.



So will Aguila .22LR


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## dawg2

treemanjohn said:


> In Georgia Bobcats and Foxes are considered fur bearers so a rimfire rifle is custom made for pelt salvage. Also Muzzle loaders today are nothing like the use to be, they use to be considered a primitive weapon (flintlock/percussion types). I think they should remove inline or scoped muzzloaders from the regs.
> 
> I also believe the should allow .22 rimfire for Turkey hunting and take away modern muzzle loaders


I am for flintlocks.


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## Throwback

bigreddwon said:


> Does anyone know why the law is the way it is? Whats the DNR's reasoning for keeping it the way it reads for so long? Throwback mentioned its been around for over 40 years he knows about, the centerfire/rimfire bullets that were available then were very limited compared to now. Hand loading wasn't near as popular or easy as it is now. Were any of these factors?
> 
> It could be argued that the serious varmint, or predator type hunter could load a 223 that wouldn't tear up valuable pelts but still drop a yote, hog or a deer. Especially centerfire with frangible to copper to varmint rounds and such. I'd rather take one weapon into the field with the ability to shoot different loads for different situations /critters than to have to take two weapons to hunt.
> 
> I have no problem hunting the way the law reads now, I'm looking forward to taking my first bobcat soon with a mouth call and a .25 cal PCP pellet rifle. Ill post a picture for sure



this is my educated guess. I hope it makes sense since I am doing 3 things at once. 

predator calling/hunting has gained popularity in the last 5 or so years. YEARS ago, about the only ways people hunted bobcat and fox were with dogs, very few people called them. it makes no sense to shoot a treed bobcat with a centerfire rifle, same with coons and possums.  therefore, using these calibers --shotgun, .22 rimfire, etc--makes sense. 

DNR does NOT make the laws, the legislature does, if not enough people call their legislatures, the law will remain the same. 

fur damage is caused on these small animals with many centerfire rifles. will a 223 cause damage? yes  but not nearly as much as a 30-06, etc. it would be logical to have some kind of cutoff for these animals. 

incidental killing during deer season by deer hunters could have a detrimental affect on the populations, especially bobcats, though in recent years their population seems to be at a peak. most people don't get fired up about a fox, but the average hunter will almost lose it if they see a bobcat for some reason. I have to admit i do...

what am I saying? the law can be changed if the LAWMAKERS are pressured, but to what end? if we make it legal for centerfire rifles to be used, many more than necessary will/could be killed by deer hunters and the animal would have been shot for no reason. i can't count the number of times I know of people shooting bobcats because they see them then realize that with nothing but the front and back quarters, spine and head left a taxidermist can't really do anything with it. they end up tossed away and basically were killed for no reason, except for the "they kill turkeys" excuse--and many times the person don't even turkey hunt...

as far as the fur, shotgunned pelts have very little value compared to a nicely prepared trapped pelt, so we could argue that a shotgun does too much damage, too. 

if a person wants the laws changed, call your lawmaker, but consider the ENTIRETY of the situation, rather than a narrow focus, otherwise you will end up with something like the "4 point rule" on deer people begged for here locally, and now realize that it created as many problems, or more, than it solved. this is where working WITH DNR, who know a lot of backgroud things about these laws, and the effects of changing them, is a good idea. This is basically what the legislature does when they are looking at changing a law, because DNR is the "expert" in these areas. 

T


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## Xringer17

I'm a huge fan of the .22-250 and predator hunting. Every deer I've killed the last 3 years has been with a .22-250 and have never lost one. As far as .22 centerfires for fox and bobcat, I think it would be good. Especially when you're hunting big fields and such. If they don't want to change so we can use .22 centerfires, .20 or .17 caliber centerfires would be fine too. I've got no problem with "having" to purchase another rifle. With that said, I've had very good results with my CZ and Marlin .22WMR on fox, bobcat and song dogs. I've also had to let a bobcat and a few fox walk because of the range. But that's the beauty of sport. I'll keep shooting what's legal and keep having fun.


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## Twenty five ought six

Throwback said:


> i'm 40 years old and it's been this way all my life as far as I know. It isn't anything new. If you don't read the regs and shoot something illegally it's no one's fault  but yours.
> 
> T



Actually, you were exiting grade school (I hope) about the time the law changed.



bigreddwon said:


> Does anyone know why the law is the way it is? Whats the DNR's reasoning for keeping it the way it reads for so long? Throwback mentioned its been around for over 40 years he knows about, the centerfire/rimfire bullets that were available then were very limited compared to now. Hand loading wasn't near as popular or easy as it is now. Were any of these factors?
> 
> It could be argued that the serious varmint, or predator type hunter could load a 223 that wouldn't tear up valuable pelts but still drop a yote, hog or a deer. Especially centerfire with frangible to copper to varmint rounds and such. I'd rather take one weapon into the field with the ability to shoot different loads for different situations /critters than to have to take two weapons to hunt.
> 
> I have no problem hunting the way the law reads now, I'm looking forward to taking my first bobcat soon with a mouth call and a .25 cal PCP pellet rifle. Ill post a picture for sure



I sort of know.  


I don't remember the exact year, but through the later 1970's, a small  game weapon was defined as an rifle .257  caliber or smaller.  This  definition gave the GW fits.  My best friend was the local GW, and he  explained the problem to me, plus I personally knew some the of the  scofflaws who took advantage of the situation.  I also recall because  that was when I first got interested in .25 caliber, and my GW buddy  told me that was about the same as wearing a sign that said "poacher."

The situation was that if someone was caught at hunting at night or  after deer season ended with a .25-06, they could always claim that they  were hunting coons or small game.  Sadly, but true, most of the GW of  that area (and I have to assume the rest of the state) assumed that  anyone with a .25 caliber centerfire was a poacher, whether you were  hunting at night or not.  In fact, this attitude was one reason I  delayed getting my first .25-06.  I'm not making this up, but my GW  buddy told me (more than half seriously) that if I got a .25-06, he  would have to quit hanging with me.

I don't remember the exact definition, but if I recall correctly, centerfire .22's _could not _be  used for deer hunting.  I'm not sure about .243, as I know people were  hunting with them in 1972, but I can't say for a fact they were legal.

I also seem to recall that during that time period _ANY_ pistol was a legal small game weapon.

Anyway along about 1980, give or take a year or two or three, _small game_  calibers were redefined  as .22 caliber rimfires to remove the loophole  regarding the centerfires.  I don't know this for a fact, but I also  think the increasing popularity of the .223 as a sporting round was a  factor in the redefiniton.   Prior to about 1975, the .223 was pretty  much considered a military round.

A couple other factors probably went into the decision -- not the least of which was that "varmint" hunting, especially without dogs, was pretty much unknown in Georgia  at that time.  Bobcats and foxes were shot as incidental game (p.s. to Nic, I never shot either for the very reasons you mention).


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## Throwback

same thing happens today with coyote and hogs. 

T


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## Twenty five ought six

Throwback said:


> same thing happens today with coyote and hogs.
> 
> T




Yep.

Coyotes were unknown and hogs were a much more local problem, which typically were hunted with dogs.

I lived and hunted in one of the hog rich areas, and hogs were pretty much an incidental kill also, except for the dog hunters, and a lot of them prided themselves on catching hogs alive.

I just have to wonder what accommodations  would have been made in the law if either were as pervasive as they are today


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## elfiii

22LR is more than enough bullet to kill a fox or bobcat unless you just have to blow one up.

Some of you who are "advertising" you have shot a bobcat during deer season with a 30-06 are asking for a visit from Mr. Green Jeans, especially if you posted a pic of it.


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## bigreddwon

Throwback and Twenty-five ought six, thank you both for your reply's.


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## xtreme05

Throwback said:


> this is my educated guess. I hope it makes sense since I am doing 3 things at once.
> 
> predator calling/hunting has gained popularity in the last 5 or so years. YEARS ago, about the only ways people hunted bobcat and fox were with dogs, very few people called them. it makes no sense to shoot a treed bobcat with a centerfire rifle, same with coons and possums.  therefore, using these calibers --shotgun, .22 rimfire, etc--makes sense.
> 
> DNR does NOT make the laws, the legislature does, if not enough people call their legislatures, the law will remain the same.
> 
> fur damage is caused on these small animals with many centerfire rifles. will a 223 cause damage? yes  but not nearly as much as a 30-06, etc. it would be logical to have some kind of cutoff for these animals.
> 
> incidental killing during deer season by deer hunters could have a detrimental affect on the populations, especially bobcats, though in recent years their population seems to be at a peak. most people don't get fired up about a fox, but the average hunter will almost lose it if they see a bobcat for some reason. I have to admit i do...
> 
> what am I saying? the law can be changed if the LAWMAKERS are pressured, but to what end? if we make it legal for centerfire rifles to be used, many more than necessary will/could be killed by deer hunters and the animal would have been shot for no reason. i can't count the number of times I know of people shooting bobcats because they see them then realize that with nothing but the front and back quarters, spine and head left a taxidermist can't really do anything with it. they end up tossed away and basically were killed for no reason, except for the "they kill turkeys" excuse--and many times the person don't even turkey hunt...
> 
> as far as the fur, shotgunned pelts have very little value compared to a nicely prepared trapped pelt, so we could argue that a shotgun does too much damage, too.
> 
> if a person wants the laws changed, call your lawmaker, but consider the ENTIRETY of the situation, rather than a narrow focus, otherwise you will end up with something like the "4 point rule" on deer people begged for here locally, and now realize that it created as many problems, or more, than it solved. this is where working WITH DNR, who know a lot of backgroud things about these laws, and the effects of changing them, is a good idea. This is basically what the legislature does when they are looking at changing a law, because DNR is the "expert" in these areas.
> 
> T


Thanks for your post sounds like your a far guy but some of you are getting me all wrong.Im not asking for any centerfire just 22 cal and below.223,221fb,222,204,17fb etc.This is what they guns were built for.The main thing i would like to carry one gun when predator calling and get a little more range.Hide damage seams to be the problem every one has with it.But 300win mag will tear up more meat than 30-30 but it still legal for people that choose to use it on deer .Lots of todays varmit bullet wont even shoot all the way threw bobcat size animals but kill and do no hide damage.Dont want to affect the sport in a bad way at all for people who do it the way it is now.But dont see how it would.I also think it should not be legal to shoot furbears with large cal. while deer hunting.


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## Throwback

xtreme, 


I agree with you on the smaller calibers. The problem is, when you allow some things, other problems will crop up. it has to be weighed if the new law would cause more problems/headaches than just leaving it be. 

it;s like the thread in the deer hunting forum where everyone wants every deer counted that is shot, but when asked how they will pay for it, all you get is smart comments or they just ignore it. what will changing this SOLVE  and what problems will it cause? That is the biggest question(s). not to mention is it a big problem to begin with?

T


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## xtreme05

Throwback said:


> xtreme,
> 
> 
> I agree with you on the smaller calibers. The problem is, when you allow some things, other problems will crop up. it has to be weighed if the new law would cause more problems/headaches than just leaving it be.
> 
> it;s like the thread in the deer hunting forum where everyone wants every deer counted that is shot, but when asked how they will pay for it, all you get is smart comments or they just ignore it. what will changing this SOLVE  and what problems will it cause? That is the biggest question(s). not to mention is it a big problem to begin with?
> 
> T


Could you give me a few problems it would cause?Its like hog hunting with smallgame weapons people say if you let them hunt with there deer guns they might shoot deer.I say a poacher will poach big gun or small.It is a problem to some hunters.The laws should change for us not us change for them unless it causes more problems for other hunters or has to much affect on game pop.With a 22 centerfire I couldnt do as much damage on game as if i traped.Ill even buy a $35 dollar license.


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## CowtownHunter

jguess said:


> i still beleive a 22mag is enuff for fox and bobcat. but its ODD that you can use a rimfire,airrifle, or any MUZZLELOADER for smallgame . they aint much differance in a 50cal muzzleloader than any deer hunting rifle i got IMO. no one is a perfect shot every time i  just try to keep it ethical as possible and dont take shots i dont feel comfortable with



That's my opinion as well.  The results of a muzzle loader shot and that of most centerfire rifles within 200yds are bout the same.  This is probably more of "this is the way it is and you'll like it" mentality by the people who (supposedly) know more than us.


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## bfriendly

This is definitely a "Pick your battles" reg issue..........I would prefer to leave the laws alone(To the OP)-I am happy with the Rimfire Rule, but I do NOT have a .223 or .22/250........I wonder, do you feel Outgunned during Big game seasons carrying a dinky caliber centerfire? 

I blew the cap off a water bottle at 173 yards the other day with my .22 mag.........I dont think you need anything bigger or faster than that for "SMALL" game season......

 I would like to see Hog/Yote Hunting legal all year long on the WMAs........Sure I could see all kinds of Bad things happening with this too, but that is what I Would like to see change........leave the weapoms as they are, cept maybe add BUCKSHOT to the acceptable Deer Firearms section.......


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## DYI hunting

I have hunted coyote with 5.56  55 grain Barnes Varmint Grenade and had very little damage to the fur/skin.  The bullets explode and I have never had one exit in the 4 coyotes I have shot with them.  They should do similiar on bobcat and fox I would think.


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## injun joe

DYI hunting said:


> I have hunted coyote with 5.56  55 grain Barnes Varmint Grenade and had very little damage to the fur/skin.  The bullets explode and I have never had one exit in the 4 coyotes I have shot with them.  They should do similiar on bobcat and fox I would think.



And you would be correct. The pelt damage argument is a canard for those who have problem with change. The sport (and I have no qualms about hunting being "sport") has changed as have the guns, ammo, and people who pursue the small game we refer to as "varmints". As T and others have explained, it's an old law whose time has come and gone.


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## Coastie

xtreme05 said:


> Could you give me a few problems it would cause?Its like hog hunting with smallgame weapons people say if you let them hunt with there deer guns they might shoot deer.I say a poacher will poach big gun or small.It is a problem to some hunters.The laws should change for us not us change for them unless it causes more problems for other hunters or has to much affect on game pop.With a 22 centerfire I couldnt do as much damage on game as if i traped.Ill even buy a $35 dollar license.



You have a valid point about the poachers but your example of hogs and smallgame weapons is inaccurate. You may shoot hogs and coyotes with anything you wish as long as it is on private property. As for using centerfire rifles for Bobcats and Foxes, again it is a waste of good fur no matter the limited damage done by a few of the smaller centerfire calibers. It seems though, that many of those wanting to use centerfire weapons for these furbearers just want to be able to blast the daylights out of some critter just for grins and giggles and to heck with the rest of the world. Unforeseen problems? Yes there would undoubtedly be some, what they might be I don't have the background to know. As for the present, coyotes, hogs, beavers, armadillos and groundhogs are considered pests and may be killed with any firearm or trapped at will on private property. Foxes, bobcats, otters, mink, weasels are furbearers and may be trapped or shot with small game weapons.


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## Throwback

DYI hunting said:


> I have hunted coyote with 5.56  55 grain Barnes Varmint Grenade and had very little damage to the fur/skin.  The bullets explode and I have never had one exit in the 4 coyotes I have shot with them.  They should do similiar on bobcat and fox I would think.




a fox is much smaller and lighter skinned than a coyote. 

T


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## xtreme05

Coastie said:


> You have a valid point about the poachers but your example of hogs and smallgame weapons is inaccurate. You may shoot hogs and coyotes with anything you wish as long as it is on private property. As for using centerfire rifles for Bobcats and Foxes, again it is a waste of good fur no matter the limited damage done by a few of the smaller centerfire calibers. It seems though, that many of those wanting to use centerfire weapons for these furbearers just want to be able to blast the daylights out of some critter just for grins and giggles and to heck with the rest of the world. Unforeseen problems? Yes there would undoubtedly be some, what they might be I don't have the background to know. As for the present, coyotes, hogs, beavers, armadillos and groundhogs are considered pests and may be killed with any firearm or trapped at will on private property. Foxes, bobcats, otters, mink, weasels are furbearers and may be trapped or shot with small game weapons.


Waste of good fur. Thats all anybody can say really come on.I hunt very little privte land so the hog thing is accurate CHNF mostly. And up here most predators die of old age. Is that a waste of good fur?Why do people care what i do with my fur anyway?(Blast the daylights out of stuff)so what we all kill stuff dead is dead. Blastin stuff is a lot more humane than trappin a animal holding it for hours and killing it after you take a picture.Witch i dont bash the trappers im thankful for them.BTW trappers keep up the good work and enjoy your sport.Could someone please give me a problem that makes sense.Unforeseen problems is that the best you can do.But in farness im goning to try and contact dnr from one of the many many states where this is legal and try to find all these unforeseem problems.


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## injun joe

Coastie said:


> You have a valid point about the poachers but your example of hogs and smallgame weapons is inaccurate. You may shoot hogs and coyotes with anything you wish as long as it is on private property. As for using centerfire rifles for Bobcats and Foxes, again it is a waste of good fur no matter the limited damage done by a few of the smaller centerfire calibers. It seems though, that many of those wanting to use centerfire weapons for these furbearers just want to be able to blast the daylights out of some critter just for grins and giggles and to heck with the rest of the world. Unforeseen problems? Yes there would undoubtedly be some, what they might be I don't have the background to know. As for the present, coyotes, hogs, beavers, armadillos and groundhogs are considered pests and may be killed with any firearm or trapped at will on private property. Foxes, bobcats, otters, mink, weasels are furbearers and may be trapped or shot with small game weapons.



You'll have to explain that one to me.


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## Coastie

injun joe said:


> You'll have to explain that one to me.



Bobcats and Foxes are managed as a resource, the fur is valuable even in these times where furs from the southeast are bringing relatively low prices. Although a well placed shot with some of the centerfire cartridges mentioned here will usually result in only an entrance wound, typically a centerfire cartridge will result in an exit wound which causes a lot of pelt damage. Bobcats and foxes are not so abundant that they are a major problem in most areas of Georgia, Coyotes on the other hand are plentiful enough to be considered a nuisance and are therefore not covered under the general hunting or trapping regulations as a resource. Coyotes pelts from the southeast as of today don't even have a proice listed on the NAFA postings whereas a few years ago they were in demand for trim. A good Bobcat from here in the southeast may still bring in around $160.00 if it isn't all shot to pieces and a fox is still worth skinning too. In short, they should be treated as a resource, not as targets.


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## injun joe

There are a host of varmint bullets that have been developed in the last few years that are specifically designed to produce only an entrance wound (and smaller than a .22 caliber entrance wound, at that) on even the thinnest skinned game.Varmint Hunter magazine would be an excellent source of knowledge for anyone who wants to become up to date on what is available to hand loaders as well as factory finished loads.
Good points about the resource.Doesn't have anything to do with pelt damage, however.
 Merry Christmas to all small game and varmint hunters.


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## goob

I think a 22 magnum is just fine for the furry kind. BUT, I wouldn't mind if a .22 cal centerfire was legal also.



Whoever said not many people hunt with .223's, you really need to get out more. I've killed more deer with my REM 700 in 22-250 than any other caliber.


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## CCP

I would like to see more people interested in learning how to call and hunt Bobcats and Fox. I have been limited to rimfire only on WMAs for as long as I can remember and don’t look at it as a handicap.

I setup tighter and pay even more attention to detail while selecting a stand. It is changing your technique in the same way as you change for bow hunting areas only.

Like several here already know the 22mag is very capable  of taking Fox and Bobcat. I think the real PITA is having one of these come to a stand while calling coyotes and don't have the rim fire with you. I believe that to be more the reason in wanting a change in regulations.


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## one hogman

Ran across this thread from 2010, they changed the law back a couple of years later letting you use centerfires for Bobcat and Fox again  anyone know why???


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## Barebowyer

17 WSM solves that problem IMHO.  I bought the M77/17 this year for similar reasons....


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## one hogman

Barebowyer said:


> 17 WSM solves that problem IMHO.  I bought the M77/17 this year for similar reasons....[/QUOT
> 
> For Fox and Bobcat it is .17 caliber or larger so ANY centerfire is legal for them now, I just wondered why they changed it back a few years ago?


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## injun joe

It really had to do with the advent of the newer small caliber cartridges that were developed for that purpose.


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## Rulo

Barebowyer said:


> 17 WSM solves that problem IMHO.  I bought the M77/17 this year for similar reasons....



Awesome round! Reasonably priced for a box of 50, and packs a wallop on coyotes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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