# Christians owning a establish that sells alcohol



## Dog Hunter (Feb 25, 2008)

What are your thoughts on a christian owning a bar/rest./etc.  that sells alcoholic beverages?


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## dawg2 (Feb 25, 2008)

Dog Hunter said:


> What are your thoughts on a christian owning a bar/rest./etc.  that sells alcoholic beverages?



Jesus drank wine.  I don't see a problem.


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## Twenty five ought six (Feb 25, 2008)

Would you prefer to buy your sacramental wine from Rashid, the Muslim?


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## Branchminnow (Feb 25, 2008)

IMO they should not own one.


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## ALLBEEF (Feb 25, 2008)

I would not own one


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## PWalls (Feb 25, 2008)

Branchminnow said:


> IMO they should not own one.



I agree.


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## THREEJAYS (Feb 25, 2008)

ALLBEEF said:


> I would not own one



Don't think I could either.


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## SBG (Feb 25, 2008)

No.


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## Dog Hunter (Feb 25, 2008)

How about a convience store?


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## pfharris1965 (Feb 25, 2008)

*...*



Dog Hunter said:


> What are your thoughts on a christian owning a bar/rest./etc. that sells alcoholic beverages?


 
I have no issue with it at all as it would be none of my business.  If they are working and sustaining themselves with proceeds from the establishment and caring for their family then that is what is important...


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## addictedtodeer (Feb 25, 2008)

No problem with it.
The problem with alcohol is the abuse of it by the individual.
Those selling it are not held responsible for someone's abuse of it unless they willfully encourage that abuse.

If we hold owners of a restaurant, pub, convenience store responsible for someone else's sin.
Then we must hold the grocery store owner responsible for gluttony (Little Debbie's is way in trouble then), Starbucks for those addicted to caffeine (cause God says do not be controlled by anything but the Holy spirit).  

holding a person responsible for someone else's sin just opens up so much.

Now if you knowingly base a business to encourage and take advantage of sin, that is a whole other issue.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Feb 25, 2008)

so if a person sells cocaine its not their problem if someone actually snorts it?

I think owning a liquor store constitutes contributing to someone's elses' sin, causing a stumbling block, and therefore I don't think a Christian should do it.


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## dawg2 (Feb 25, 2008)

addictedtodeer said:


> No problem with it.
> The problem with alcohol is the abuse of it by the individual.
> Those selling it are not held responsible for someone's abuse of it unless they willfully encourage that abuse.
> 
> ...



I agree...to a degree...

It would be like having contempt towards a Christian that owns a hardware store...do you hold it against them if people buy paint or solvents and huff them and get high?


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## Doug B. (Feb 25, 2008)

I do not think it is right for a Christian to own an establishment that sells alcohol, or for a Christian to sell it for someone else. What if it did contribute to someone elses sin? Do we think we would not be held accountable?

Even if it did not directly contribute to someone elses sin, what about our witness with those that were lost? None of us are perfect, but we need to stay as close to God as we can... for the losts sake. If someone knows that we are selling alcohol, and because we are a Christian they are hindered from getting saved, then on whose hands is their blood.

I fail miserably at being a witness for God! I do not need any more help with alcohol or anything else.


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## Sterlo58 (Feb 25, 2008)

*Moderation my friends*



dawg2 said:


> Jesus drank wine.  I don't see a problem.



That has always been my opinion. The sin is not owning, selling alcohol. The sin is abusing it. Not all Christians believe alcohol is a sin.


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## 60Grit (Feb 25, 2008)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> I think owning a liquor store constitutes contributing to someone's elses' sin, .


 
In that line of thinking, then a Christian shouldn't own a restaurant either. They wouldn't want to contribute to glutonous behavior ya know..


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## jneil (Feb 25, 2008)

A liberal would say a Christian shouldn't own a gun store.


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## SBG (Feb 25, 2008)

60Grit said:


> In that line of thinking, then a Christian shouldn't own a restaurant either. They wouldn't want to contribute to glutonous behavior ya know..



I've never heard of anyone that has killed someone in a car crash when they were under the influence of ribs, or beat their wife and kids because they were out of their mind on Big Macs.


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## jneil (Feb 25, 2008)

SBG said:


> I've never heard of anyone that has killed someone in a car crash when they were under the influence of ribs, or beat their wife and kids because they were out of their mind on Big Macs.



My wifes friends husband ballooned up to 500 lbs. before he died. He ate at McDonalds everyday.


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## leroy (Feb 25, 2008)

polecat said:


> I do not think it is right for a Christian to own an establishment that sells alcohol, or for a Christian to sell it for someone else. What if it did contribute to someone elses sin? Do we think we would not be held accountable?
> 
> Even if it did not directly contribute to someone elses sin, what about our witness with those that were lost? None of us are perfect, but we need to stay as close to God as we can... for the losts sake. If someone knows that we are selling alcohol, and because we are a Christian they are hindered from getting saved, then on whose hands is their blood.
> 
> I fail miserably at being a witness for God! I do not need any more help with alcohol or anything else.




Good post polecat. I agree


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## leroy (Feb 25, 2008)

Jmike said:


> So from some of y'alls viewpoints....
> 
> A lost man owns a local pub and sandwich shop type restaurant, one day gets saved and the Lord is working in him and through him...the restaurant has been a family business for years and provides for his family, and now that he's a Christian he should sell the place?



He should not sell alcohol IMO. This is a slippery slope trying to rationalize such.


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## 60Grit (Feb 25, 2008)

Guns are used for murder, should Christians not own gun shops???


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## Doug B. (Feb 25, 2008)

Jmike said:


> So from some of y'alls viewpoints....
> 
> A lost man owns a local pub and sandwich shop type restaurant, one day gets saved and the Lord is working in him and through him...the restaurant has been a family business for years and provides for his family, and now that he's a Christian he should sell the place?



No, just stop selling alcohol.


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## Lowjack (Feb 25, 2008)

Not Me, My Family Owns 24 supermarkets and 9 pharmacies, No alcohol sold in any of them, Yet God blessed us abundantly to be able to build this Chain.


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## leroy (Feb 25, 2008)

like polecat said and I agree we as Christians should try and be the best witness we can for God. I dont think you can do that and sell alcohol and I dont think a liquor store and a gun store are comparing the same. If you sell it at some point and I say many many times you are going to hurt someone and If you as the one that provided it are not somewhat accountable then who is.


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## leroy (Feb 25, 2008)

Jmike said:


> so let me ask y'all this...we go back to prohibition and all the problems with alcohol go away?



no!!!!  but that does not make it right.


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## 60Grit (Feb 25, 2008)

leroy said:


> If you sell it at some point and I say many many times you are going to hurt someone and If you as the one that provided it are not somewhat accountable then who is.


 
And this is different from a gun store, how???


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## Doug B. (Feb 25, 2008)

Jmike said:


> or maybe, lost man sees a restaurant owner that's a Christian but that doesn't condemn him for his lifestyle and is a real guy that folks can connect with and he's built relationships over the years and because of that his restaurant which serves alcohol was what opened the door for him to minister to and led him to the Lord...
> 
> remember boys, drinking alcohol ain't the problem...it may be a symptom but its not the root.



No one can " lead" any one else to the Lord. It takes the Holy Spirit to lead anyone. I don't believe that God uses a beer joint (or restaurant that sells alcohol) to open the door to someone to be ministered to.
We can beat around and try to make an answer to something when deep down inside we know the truth. Drinking alcohol ain't the problem, but it can for sure be a stumbling block.


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## Doug B. (Feb 25, 2008)

60Grit said:


> And this is different from a gun store, how???



Alcohol causes problems. Guns solve problems!!!


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## 60Grit (Feb 25, 2008)

polecat said:


> No one can " lead" any one else to the Lord. It takes the Holy Spirit to lead anyone. I don't believe that God uses a beer joint (or restaurant that sells alcohol) to open the door to someone to be ministered to.
> We can beat around and try to make an answer to something when deep down inside we know the truth. Drinking alcohol ain't the problem, but it can for sure be a stumbling block.


 
That's funny, our pastor intentionally frequents the local restaurants, especially the ones that serve alcohol. Last year, he witnessed, in a very subtle unoffending way, to a gay waiter in one of these restaurants. The man has since joined our church, given up his sinful lifestyle and gotten saved. He is still employed at this restaurant and in fact has led three others to the Lord, and our church.

So you can hide from the world if you wish, but that was not Jesus' command for us.

If you want to find those that need God the most, you need to go to them.


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## leroy (Feb 25, 2008)

polecat said:


> We can beat around and try to make an answer to something when deep down inside we know the truth. Drinking alcohol ain't the problem, but it can for sure be a stumbling block.



Exactly! It can hurt your witness and that is wrong Biblically.


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## 60Grit (Feb 25, 2008)

polecat said:


> Alcohol causes problems. Guns solve problems!!!


 
Tell that to these women and their families.

*The Barton Corbin Case
*

*Background and Latest Developments*

On Dec. 4, 2004 Jennifer Corbin was found shot once in the head in her Buford, Georgia home with a handgun beside her. Her 7-year-old son discovered her body and reportedly told police that his dad, Dr. Barton Corbin, had killed his mom.

While authorities were investigating the death of Jennifer Corbin in Gwinnett County, a Richmond County grand jury on Dec. 22 indicted Barton Corbin for the 1990 death of Dorothy (Dolly) Hearn, who was Barton's girlfriend in dental school in Augusta. Hearn was found shot to death in her apartment with a gun in her lap.


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## leroy (Feb 25, 2008)

60Grit said:


> That's funny, our pastor intentionally frequents the local restaurants, especially the ones that serve alcohol. Last year, he witnessed, in a very subtle unoffending way, to a gay waiter in one of these restaurants. The man has since joined our church, given up his sinful lifestyle and gotten saved. He is still employed at this restaurant and in fact has led three others to the Lord, and our church.
> 
> So you can hide from the world if you wish, but that was not Jesus' command for us.
> 
> If you want to find those that need God the most, you need to go to them.




different situation your Pastor did not own the establishment that was selling alcohol or have anything to do with serving it.


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## leroy (Feb 25, 2008)

Jmike said:


> you don't?  why is this because you haven't been in one to actually try to minister to someone in it?
> 
> What about the girl that worked as a bartender in the Ruby Tuesday here in Commerce that me and 2 other Pastors from the church I work in built a relationship with...and we always sat in the section right next to the bar so that she could serve us...and because she knew we we're Pastors and she knew we were real with her, and we would speak kindly to her...then what about the time she was really struggling with something that was coming up in her past and was in trouble and knew no-other way to get relief but to talk to the 3 guys that came in week after week from the church...and when she came to our table that wednesday night in tears asking us for help and prayers and wanted to know what all this "God" stuff was about...well I guess stuff like that doesn't happen?
> 
> Please sir, don't limit what the God that CREATED the heavens and the earth through his spoken WORDS can do.



again different situation. Nothing to do with a Christian selling alcohol. If the thread said a Christian going into a establishment that sells alcohol this would apply. Glad you and your friends were there to minister to the woman.


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## Doug B. (Feb 25, 2008)

60Grit said:


> Tell that to these women and their families.
> 
> *The Barton Corbin Case
> *
> ...



Sorry... I didn't mean to be so serious.


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Feb 25, 2008)

Nope


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## leroy (Feb 25, 2008)

Jmike said:


> And if I could go in and do that...then what makes you think that a hard working Christian man that owns a restuarant like that couldn't do the same?



He might be able to do SOME good but he could do as much if not much more damage.


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## Milkman (Feb 25, 2008)

Not to stir the pot here but............................. If you take this to the extreme someone who believes this way should sell any stock or holdings in any retirement savings, or investment that holds stock in any hotel, restaurant, airlines, grocery stores, Walmart, etc, etc , etc. 

Being a stock holder makes you an owner of that company now doesnt it and they sell and serve alcohol


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## Doug B. (Feb 25, 2008)

Jmike said:


> no sir...the situation I was commenting on was when you said, "I don't think God uses a beer joint or eating establishment that sells alcohol to open the door to minister to someone"...
> 
> And if I could go in and do that...then what makes you think that a hard working Christian man that owns a restuarant like that couldn't do the same?



You are right. There are probably a lot of times that I limit God. Another fault of my faithless, carnal mind.

I still don't think that a hard working Christian man should own an establishment that sells alcohol. I still believe you can be a better witness where alcohol is not involved. I'm not saying that God can't work there, but what about those that see you go into a beer joint. Your intentions may be to talk to those inside about God. There may be more that see you go in, that will never listen to you. In there eyes they are doing better than you. At least they don't go in a bar, may be what they are thinking.


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## Doug B. (Feb 25, 2008)

Milkman said:


> Not to stir the pot here but............................. If you take this to the extreme someone who believes this way should sell any stock or holdings in any retirement savings, or investment that holds stock in hotel, restaurant, airlines, grocery stores, Walmart, etc, etc , etc.
> 
> Being a stock holder makes you an owner of that company now doesnt it and they sell and serve alcohol



Don't own any.


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## Doug B. (Feb 25, 2008)

Jmike said:


> and If God leads me in to talk to someone in the bar...I'll leave the multitudes to go speak to that one in the bar...



Absolutely!!!


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## pnome (Feb 25, 2008)

Well, now if all you Christians won't own liqueur stores then why can't they be open on Sundays?


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## pfharris1965 (Feb 25, 2008)

*...*



pnome said:


> Well, now if all you Christians won't own liqueur stores then why can't they be open on Sundays?


 
    

 

Thanks man...I needed a laugh tonight......


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## Lowjack (Feb 25, 2008)

pnome said:


> Well, now if all you Christians won't own liqueur stores then why can't they be open on Sundays?



For  drunks to reach  Monday ?
Is this a trick question ? LOL


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## HuntDawg (Feb 26, 2008)

I can not understand the problem that alot of Christians have with alcohol.  Jesus turned water into wine.  There is no debate about this miracle.  Again, do we not consider this a miracle?  

I understand if a person believes that alcohol is not the best thing for you, and it alters the mind, but the arguement should not be that Christianity has anything to do with it.  If you believe it leads to bad behavior, drunk driving, etc., then your religon should have nothing to do with it. 

The arguement that seeing a person go into a bar can keep them from the Lord is not the fault of Alcohol.  It is the fault of Christians making people believe that drinking alcohol is a sin.  I believe this is the problem, not the alcohol.  

Jesus made it and drank it.  He committed no sins.


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## SBG (Feb 26, 2008)

jneil said:


> My wifes friends husband ballooned up to 500 lbs. before he died. He ate at McDonalds everyday.



How many people did he take with him?


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## 60Grit (Feb 26, 2008)

SBG said:


> How many people did he take with him?


 
About as many as those that die of scerosis (sp?)


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## SBG (Feb 26, 2008)

60Grit said:


> And this is different from a gun store, how???




Do guns kill people or do people kill people?


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## 60Grit (Feb 26, 2008)

SBG said:


> Do guns kill people or do people kill people?


 
no gun, no death, no bottle, no death. Is that where your cliche is heading??


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## SBG (Feb 26, 2008)

60Grit said:


> About as many as those that die of scerosis (sp?)



Cirrhosis never crossed the center line of the highway and killed a van load of Christian College students who were on a summer ministry tour.

Cirrhosis never beat a two year old child to death for pottying in its bed.


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## SBG (Feb 26, 2008)

60Grit said:


> no gun, no death, no bottle, no death. Is that where your cliche is heading??



No. Just pointing out the fallacy of your ignorant liberal analogy.


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## PWalls (Feb 26, 2008)

60Grit said:


> no gun, no death, no bottle, no death. Is that where your cliche is heading??



My reasoning would be that killing someone with a gun is a conscious decision. Killing someone while in a drunken stupor much less so. A gun is not a mind-altering drug that makes you do things you don't want to do or will not remember later.

I understand where you are going with your point, but I don't think they are apples/apples in comparison.


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## 60Grit (Feb 26, 2008)

SBG said:


> No. Just pointing out the fallacy of your ignorant liberal analogy.


 
Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people.

Liquor doesn't kill people, people that drink too much kill people.

If you don't see the similarity, then you need to remove the plank from your eye.

There it is your turn to retort with more Christian like degrading remarks..


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## PWalls (Feb 26, 2008)

60Grit said:


> There it is your turn to retort with more Christian like degrading remarks..


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## SBG (Feb 26, 2008)

60Grit said:


> Guns don't kill people, people with guns kill people.
> 
> Liquor doesn't kill people, people that drink too much kill people.
> 
> ...



That hurt didn't it high horse? I guess that's why they say the truth cuts like a knife. Quit using leftist, liberal analogies and you won't have your feelings hurt.


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## Adirondacker (Feb 26, 2008)

If it is not:

1. prohibited by God's Holy Word
2. illegal (members of the Body of Christ are to obey the law)

I do not see how anyone has the right/ability/ responsibility to impose a "no alcohol" point of view on anyone else. I think it is the personal choice/responsibility of the individual in light of what their conscience tells them.

With that said, personally I have a problem with selling or promoting the sale of  the product of a company that regularly uses immorality to promote the sale of their product. Never mind the encouragement to use these products in excess that is often explicit or implied. Watch any college or professional athletic contest on TV...is it wrong for a "Christian" to partake in an activity sponsored by alcohol manufactures? What does Scripture tell us to set our minds on?


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## Branchminnow (Feb 26, 2008)

Jmike said:


> let me ask you this (and im not trying to argue or be belligerent i promise) just discussing.
> 
> Is that a personal conviction for you...? And if so, why should a personal conviction be used on someone else's life?



Nobody is forcing anything here.....the thread was started and when the truth of the matter (people dont like to be told they are wrong in the eyes of god or the scripture) they take it personally.

The opinions against a christian owning an establishment are just that.....Im not nor have I critisized anyone for their mistakes (lord knows I make enough of my own) but I do have an opinion and Im not forcing anyone to read it, or apply it to their lives, but if you ask the truth does tend get uncomfortable for some folks.

I used the word forced when it was mentioned about a personal conviction being used in someone elses life.


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## Branchminnow (Feb 26, 2008)

Lowjack said:


> Not Me, My Family Owns 24 supermarkets and 9 pharmacies, No alcohol sold in any of them, Yet God blessed us abundantly to be able to build this Chain.



Living proof you dont have to have alchohol to make it.


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## Branchminnow (Feb 26, 2008)

Jmike said:


> so let me ask y'all this...we go back to prohibition do all the problems with alcohol go away?



no no one is saying that at all. 
man is going to sin, I think the point is, dont contribute to it.(sin that is)


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## Spotlite (Feb 26, 2008)

Dog Hunter said:


> What are your thoughts on a christian owning a bar/rest./etc.  that sells alcoholic beverages?



That would be so cool you could name the store

"Sleeping With the Enemy"


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## THREEJAYS (Feb 26, 2008)

Branchminnow said:


> no no one is saying that at all.
> man is going to sin, I think the point is, dont contribute to it.(sin that is)



Exactly,If possible we are not to be a stumbling block.


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## dawg2 (Feb 26, 2008)

polecat said:


> ... I don't believe that God uses a beer joint (or restaurant that sells alcohol) to open the door to someone to be ministered to.



So God is not everywhere?


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## dawg2 (Feb 26, 2008)

pnome said:


> Well, now if all you Christians won't own liqueur stores then why can't they be open on Sundays?



Because of the Baptists

...but they usually stock up on Saturday or go to a Catholic's house on Sunday.


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## Branchminnow (Feb 26, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Because of the Baptists
> 
> ...but they usually stock up on Saturday or go to a Catholic's house on Sunday.



I dont.


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## leroy (Feb 26, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Because of the Baptists
> 
> ...but they usually stock up on Saturday or go to a Catholic's house on Sunday.



not me either! not everyone drinks alcohol! It would suit me if they never made another drop


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## leroy (Feb 26, 2008)

Branchminnow said:


> no no one is saying that at all.
> man is going to sin, I think the point is, dont contribute to it.(sin that is)



Good post branch.


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## dawg2 (Feb 26, 2008)

OK, I keep hearing stumbling block and contributing to sin, etc.

How about a Christian that owns a store that sells regular women's clothes AND lingerie (Not talking novelty shop).  Is that OK?  Contributing to fornication and adultery, and causing mens eyes to wander, eventhough some of the people (women) are buying it for their husband but some are not?   

That would be a stumbling block...


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## dawg2 (Feb 26, 2008)

leroy said:


> not me either! not everyone drinks alcohol! It would suit me if they never made another drop



Not everybody eats fried fatback or bacon, or fried foods, or meat, or sweets, or potato chips; each of which can be bad for you as well...everything in MODERATION (legal that is)


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## Dog Hunter (Feb 26, 2008)

Interesting points on both sides.  Never expected so much feedback.  Thanks for all of it.


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## Branchminnow (Feb 26, 2008)

Dog Hunter said:


> Interesting points on both sides.  Never expected so much feedback.  Thanks for all of it.



On this board you have alot of posters that are of different faiths.......


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## leroy (Feb 26, 2008)

If someone wants to drink have at it, if you want to sell it have at it, just dont expect or be surprised that other Christians dont accept it. And dont use Jesus as the poster child to push it because he turned water into wine which was not intended to give everyone a excuse to go out and drink and get drunk.


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## Spotlite (Feb 26, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> OK, I keep hearing stumbling block and contributing to sin, etc.
> 
> How about a Christian that owns a store that sells regular women's clothes AND lingerie (Not talking novelty shop).  Is that OK?  Contributing to fornication and adultery, and causing mens eyes to wander, eventhough some of the people (women) are buying it for their husband but some are not?
> 
> That would be a stumbling block...



People can make stumbling blocks out chewing gum.

I think common sense plays a major role in what to do and what not to do.

I dont see where selling ladies underwear would be a stumbling block. Ladies underwear are a "necessity" item, alcohol is a "wants" item.


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## leroy (Feb 26, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> I think common sense plays a major role in what to do and what not to do.
> .



yep


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## Branchminnow (Feb 26, 2008)

leroy said:


> If someone wants to drink have at it, if you want to sell it have at it, just dont expect or be surprised that other Christians dont accept it. And dont use Jesus as the poster child to push it because he turned water into wine which was not intended to give everyone a excuse to go out and drink and get drunk.



There you go.


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## Dog Hunter (Feb 26, 2008)

leroy said:


> If someone wants to drink have at it, if you want to sell it have at it, just dont expect or be surprised that other Christians dont accept it.



That is sort of my take on this situation.


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## dawg2 (Feb 26, 2008)

leroy said:


> ...he turned water into wine which was not intended to give everyone a excuse to go out and drink and get drunk.



I agree.  Never said anything about that.


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## addictedtodeer (Feb 26, 2008)

Jmike said:


> So from some of y'alls viewpoints....
> 
> A lost man owns a local pub and sandwich shop type restaurant, one day gets saved and the Lord is working in him and through him...the restaurant has been a family business for years and provides for his family, and now that he's a Christian he should sell the place?



Nope, it keeps it and works for the glory of God unless of course God calls him to sell it and go to the mission field.


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## Lowjack (Feb 26, 2008)

I can't see myself, serving someone a drink and saying , how about coming to church on Sunday ? LOL


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## leroy (Feb 26, 2008)

Lowjack said:


> I can't see myself, serving someone a drink and saying , how about coming to church on Sunday ? LOL



yep, me either


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## Twenty five ought six (Feb 26, 2008)

Sorry I don' buy this "stumbling block" thing. If we stop doing anything that _could_ be a stumbling block, we will be doing precious little. 

If my buying a bottle of nice wine to have with my meal causes someone to lose their faith, I have to believe that their faith wasn't much to begin with, and that you are looking at a person looking for a reason.  

Why exactly would that cause some to "lose" their faith.  I've never professed that a Christian (or anyone else) shouldn't drink alcohol, so why would my buying it cause someone to question their own faith.

If I've found _anything_ to be true it is that a person looking for an excuse can find one.


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## dawg2 (Feb 26, 2008)

Twenty five ought six said:


> Sorry I don' buy this "stumbling block" thing. If we stop doing anything that _could_ be a stumbling block, we will be doing precious little.
> 
> If my buying a bottle of nice wine to have with my meal causes someone to lose their faith, I have to believe that their faith wasn't much to begin with, and that you are looking at a person looking for a reason.
> 
> ...


That's the truth.  My favorite wine is 'Petite Sirah,' you should try it if you haven't.


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## SBG (Feb 26, 2008)

Twenty five ought six said:


> If I've found _anything_ to be true it is that a person looking for an excuse can find one.



I agree. People are very good at rationalization.


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## FishHunt (Feb 26, 2008)

Most of my friends are Christians and we've been known to drink a few brews every now and again...so I guess I should be OK with it.  Otherwise I'd be a hyprocrite.


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## Doug B. (Feb 26, 2008)

leroy said:


> If someone wants to drink have at it, if you want to sell it have at it, just dont expect or be surprised that other Christians dont accept it. And dont use Jesus as the poster child to push it because he turned water into wine which was not intended to give everyone a excuse to go out and drink and get drunk.





Lowjack said:


> I can't see myself, serving someone a drink and saying , how about coming to church on Sunday ? LOL




Amen!!!


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## pfharris1965 (Feb 26, 2008)

*...*



Twenty five ought six said:


> Sorry I don' buy this "stumbling block" thing. If we stop doing anything that _could_ be a stumbling block, we will be doing precious little.
> 
> If my buying a bottle of nice wine to have with my meal causes someone to lose their faith, I have to believe that their faith wasn't much to begin with, and that you are looking at a person looking for a reason.
> 
> ...


 
Preach on Brother!  AMEN!


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## Doug B. (Feb 26, 2008)

Twenty five ought six said:


> Sorry I don' buy this "stumbling block" thing. If we stop doing anything that _could_ be a stumbling block, we will be doing precious little.
> 
> If my buying a bottle of nice wine to have with my meal causes someone to lose their faith, I have to believe that their faith wasn't much to begin with, and that you are looking at a person looking for a reason.
> 
> ...



I don't know where you came up with anyone losing their faith. It could be a stumblingblock to those that do not have any faith... more specifically, the lost. My lost loved ones, and your lost loved ones, should mean enough to me that I wouldn't intentionally hinder them with alcohol, or anything else. It would be hard to witness to someone with a beer in your hand.


----------



## pfharris1965 (Feb 26, 2008)

*...*



Jmike said:


> So, and I dont think this is hi-jacking the thread...but a couple folks have called a few of the ones that don't have a problem with a Christian owning a restaurant that serves alcohol a "LIBERAL".
> Please expound on that statement if someone would.
> And by the way, though I have stated I dont have a problem with it...by the way- I don't personally drink alcohol.
> And I am not liberal by any count, and actually work as an associate Pastor at a very conservative church.
> Just wanted to see where the "liberal" comment works its way in this discussion.


 
Here man I will save the trouble...


----------



## pfharris1965 (Feb 26, 2008)

*...*



polecat said:


> I don't know where you came up with anyone losing their faith. It could be a stumblingblock to those that do not have any faith... more specifically, the lost. My lost loved ones, and your lost loved ones, should mean enough to me that I wouldn't intentionally hinder them with alcohol, or anything else. It would be hard to witness to someone with a beer in your hand.


 
Let me ask here...I hear how "Christians" are conservative and that is a belief that mandates one's personal responsibility for one's self...how does that fit in to all of this...

Someone drinking a beer never had an impact on whether or not I believed in God...


----------



## 60Grit (Feb 26, 2008)

Jmike said:


> So, and I dont think this is hi-jacking the thread...but a couple folks have called a few of the ones that don't have a problem with a Christian owning a restaurant that serves alcohol a "LIBERAL".
> Please expound on that statement if someone would.
> And by the way, though I have stated I dont have a problem with it...by the way- I don't personally drink alcohol.
> And I am not liberal by any count, and actually work as an associate Pastor at a very conservative church.
> Just wanted to see where the "liberal" comment works its way in this discussion.


 
It's a term that snakehandlers use for those that actually go out into the world, amongst the sinners, to live their life by the example Christ set. Instead of those conservatives that hide in the closet called a church building and witness to those that have already found their way.

It's no biggie, there are surprises around every corner, you just have to get out to find them.


----------



## leroy (Feb 26, 2008)

going out into the world to witness is one thing serving them a drink, or selling them a 12 pack while you do it is another.


----------



## BRANCHWYNN (Feb 26, 2008)

absolutely nothing biblical ive seen to ever suggest against it. I cant let the fact that abuse of alcohol should let me judge whether or not a another should sell or own a liquor store based on the abuse of an alcoholic or an abuser of alcohol. I find it irresponsible for any Christian to make a suggestion that it is a sin to consume alcohol or own an establishment that sells alcohol. I have family members who are totally against the consumption, but they base their opinion on the abuse theyve seen  by others in  the past...not by what is biblically written. I am a smoker who struggles with nicotine addiction on a daily basis. I have quit several times and I pray GOD will take the taste from me daily. I may drink a beer tommorrow and not pick up another for weeks...even months....we all choose our sins but Im not addicted to alcohol...Im addicted to tobacco. So to blame the farmer for my addiction is rediculous as is to blame the convenirnt store owner or liquor store owner for an abuser of alcohol.


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## PWalls (Feb 27, 2008)

60Grit said:


> It's a term that snakehandlers use for those that actually go out into the world, amongst the sinners, to live their life by the example Christ set. Instead of those conservatives that hide in the closet called a church building and witness to those that have already found their way.
> 
> It's no biggie, there are surprises around every corner, you just have to get out to find them.



Actually, it can be explained a lot better than the above and without the sarcasm and innuendos. 

A "liberal" Christian is one that ignores certain Scripture or rationalizes it away. One that has no problem with "the ends justifies the means".
A "conservative" Christian tries to follow all of the Scripture and do works within the boundries of that Scripture (the ends do not justify the means).

Both are Christian. In my opinion, the liberal one has given up some Scriptural truth in their walk and again, in my opinion is not better off for it. To be called a "conservative" Christian in my opinion is a good thing based on the above definition.

In the context of this thread, you'll have liberal Christians who want to bash another Christian with a personal conviction to not sell Alcohol. You'll have a conservative Christians who want to bash another Christian with a conviction that it doesn't matter.


----------



## SBG (Feb 27, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Actually, it can be explained a lot better than the above and without the sarcasm and innuendos.
> 
> A "liberal" Christian is one that ignores certain Scripture or rationalizes it away. One that has no problem with "the ends justifies the means".
> A "conservative" Christian tries to follow all of the Scripture and do works within the boundries of that Scripture (the ends do not justify the means).
> ...




Good post.

The only thing I would differ on is in the terminology.

There are "liberal" Christians and there are fundemental Christians-theologically speaking. These are not to be confused with the liberal and conservative monikers of politics. Typically, the moderately liberal Christian is still a political conservative, mostly. 

I believe that the biggest difference between the two camps is biblical adherence: The fundementalist allows his life to be shaped by the Bible; the liberal wants to shape the Bible into fitting their lifestyle choices.


----------



## Branchminnow (Feb 27, 2008)

BRANCHWYNN said:


> absolutely nothing biblical ive seen to ever suggest against it. I cant let the fact that abuse of alcohol should let me judge whether or not a another should sell or own a liquor store based on the abuse of an alcoholic or an abuser of alcohol. I find it irresponsible for any Christian to make a suggestion that it is a sin to consume alcohol or own an establishment that sells alcohol. I have family members who are totally against the consumption, but they base their opinion on the abuse theyve seen  by others in  the past...not by what is biblically written. I am a smoker who struggles with nicotine addiction on a daily basis. I have quit several times and I pray GOD will take the taste from me daily. I may drink a beer tommorrow and not pick up another for weeks...even months....we all choose our sins but Im not addicted to alcohol...Im addicted to tobacco. So to blame the farmer for my addiction is rediculous as is to blame the convenirnt store owner or liquor store owner for an abuser of alcohol.




My question to you is just because we have an opinion or a belief we are judging????

I think its wrong period. Thats how i feel. DO I excommunicate them (christians that own a store like that) NO, I have a very good friend who owns a store that sells it. Ive told him how I feel Because he asked. Again it is wrong. Im not judging.....its just wrong.


----------



## Branchminnow (Feb 27, 2008)

yeah this is what Im talking about!

For you 60


----------



## Branchminnow (Feb 27, 2008)

Jmike said:


> what's wrong?


----------



## jneil (Feb 27, 2008)

Branchminnow said:


> yeah this is what Im talking about!
> 
> For you 60









Is that how teacher lead prayer will look?


----------



## dawg2 (Feb 27, 2008)

Branchminnow said:


> yeah this is what Im talking about!
> 
> For you 60


----------



## 60Grit (Feb 27, 2008)

Being called a liberal Christian is not a bad thing. It is when snakehandlers get their sensitive little feelings hurt because not everyone agrees with them, and then they lash out with qualifying statements such as High Horse Arrogant Liberal, before they state their point.

It is at that point, they have failed to maintain the monicker of that conservative position they so staunchly slap people in the face with.

Smoke an mirrors boys, smoke and mirrors, all justified by hiding behind a book written by mere mortals.


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## PWalls (Feb 27, 2008)

60Grit said:


> book written by mere mortals.



Inspired by God. Please do not leave that part out. Written with human hands, yes. But those hands were inspired to write exactly what was written. There was nothing man-made about the Bible.


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## 60Grit (Feb 27, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Inspired by God. Please do not leave that part out. Written with human hands, yes. But those hands were inspired to write exactly what was written. There was nothing man-made about the Bible.


 
Only if you include all of the books inspired by God and written by men.

Not just the ones that a Man decided would be included.


----------



## SBG (Feb 27, 2008)

60Grit said:


> High Horse Arrogant Liberal, before they state their point.



You prove my point for me quite well.

Rover can sure dish it out, but he can't take it.


----------



## FX Jenkins (Feb 27, 2008)

I think the two guys on the left are related...and dimes to dollars their last name is Jenkins...


----------



## dawg2 (Feb 27, 2008)

FX Jenkins said:


> I think the two guys on the left are related...


You and 60grit


----------



## 60Grit (Feb 27, 2008)

FX Jenkins said:


> I think the two guys on the left are related...and dimes to dollars their last name is Jenkins...


 
I would dare say that my church would put the snakehandler into cardiac arrest. He for sure wouldn't like it, because it allows no opportunities for nap time during the service....


----------



## SBG (Feb 27, 2008)

60Grit said:


> I would dare say that my church would put the snakehandler into cardiac arrest. He for sure wouldn't like it, because it allows no opportunities for nap time during the service....



You ain't handled many snakes, have ya?

Whatever makes your feel good high horse. Don't let the admonitions of the scripture get in the way of you having a good time.


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## PWalls (Feb 27, 2008)

60Grit said:


> Only if you include all of the books inspired by God and written by men.
> 
> Not just the ones that a Man decided would be included.



But I do. I also believe that God has preserved His Word through the ages in the current form we have. Any additions or retractions were guided by His hand.

So, how do you determin which books were "all" of them? What is your criteria?


----------



## FX Jenkins (Feb 27, 2008)

SBG said:


> Whatever makes your feel good high horse.



I have evidence to show that 60's horse isn't really that high...note the UA shirt


----------



## Branchminnow (Feb 27, 2008)

FX Jenkins said:


> I think the two guys on the left are related...and dimes to dollars their last name is Jenkins...



They are definatley related................glad somefolks can take a joke..........I like to tease and joke around thats why I use the smilies.....


----------



## Branchminnow (Feb 27, 2008)

60Grit said:


> Only if you include all of the books inspired by God and written by men.
> 
> Not just the ones that a Man decided would be included.



I have a 1611 edition nad have read alot of it............I guess what my question is......is there something else I dont know about?


----------



## DCHunter (Feb 27, 2008)

SBG said:


> I've never heard of anyone that has killed someone in a car crash when they were under the influence of ribs, or beat their wife and kids because they were out of their mind on Big Macs.




Me neither, but gluttony is still a sin.


----------



## FX Jenkins (Feb 27, 2008)

Branchminnow said:


> They are definatley related................glad somefolks can take a joke..........I like to tease and joke around thats why I use the smilies.....



   Oh wait, thats not appropriate for this thread  

And at the end of the day, our unity is in Christ, thats why I'm always quick to offer either some scripture or humor in these otherwise divisive posts....


----------



## DCHunter (Feb 27, 2008)

I've never met a conservative Christian by your definition. If you didn't rationalize any scripture, you'd be killing gays, kicking your wife out of the house every time she had her period and plucking your eyeball out if you looked at a womans behind, etc.



PWalls said:


> Actually, it can be explained a lot better than the above and without the sarcasm and innuendos.
> 
> A "liberal" Christian is one that ignores certain Scripture or rationalizes it away. One that has no problem with "the ends justifies the means".
> A "conservative" Christian tries to follow all of the Scripture and do works within the boundries of that Scripture (the ends do not justify the means).
> ...


----------



## FX Jenkins (Feb 27, 2008)

DCHunter said:


> Me neither, but gluttony is still a sin.



two sins that defile Gods temple, sexual immorality and gluttony...the later is not as insignificant as we'd sometimes like to believe...

which ties this back in with the original topic...  its the abuse of alcohol that is the sin, not the consumption or distribution of it...however, you won't see me opening up a hitching post any time soon...but neither am I going to call a person a sinner if their restaurant serves or offers wine.


----------



## Branchminnow (Feb 27, 2008)

FX Jenkins said:


> Oh wait, thats not appropriate for this thread
> 
> And at the end of the day, our unity is in Christ, thats why I'm always quick to offer either some scripture or humor in these otherwise divisive posts....


----------



## DCHunter (Feb 27, 2008)

FX Jenkins said:


> its the abuse of alcohol that is the sin, not the consumption or distribution of it...however, you won't see me opening up a hitching post any time soon...but neither am I going to call a person a sinner if their restaurant serves or offers wine.




I agree! Now on the other hand. I don't think someone in a leadership role like a deacon should be selling it.


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## PWalls (Feb 27, 2008)

DCHunter said:


> I agree! Now on the other hand. I don't think someone in a leadership role like a deacon should be selling it.



Why do you make that distinction?


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## SBG (Feb 27, 2008)

DCHunter said:


> I agree! Now on the other hand. I don't think someone in a leadership role like a deacon should be selling it.




Why?


----------



## DCHunter (Feb 27, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Why do you make that distinction?


To be honest...I don't know.


----------



## elfiii (Feb 27, 2008)

FX Jenkins said:


> which ties this back in with the original topic...  its the abuse of alcohol that is the sin, not the consumption or distribution of it...however, you won't see me opening up a hitching post any time soon...but neither am I going to call a person a sinner if their restaurant serves or offers wine.



The one post exhibiting wisdom in this thread.


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## Branchminnow (Feb 27, 2008)

elfiii said:


> The one post exhibiting wisdom in this thread.



Dont brag on him he will just post more.....


----------



## DCHunter (Feb 27, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Why do you make that distinction?


I guess it goes back to the stumbling block argument. Even though I don't buy that in most cases, somebody like a deacon or pastor is held in high esteem to alot of people. When you take on that leadership role I think you need to be alot more careful about stuff like drinking a beer in public or selling it.


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## PWalls (Feb 28, 2008)

DCHunter said:


> I guess it goes back to the stumbling block argument. Even though I don't buy that in most cases, somebody like a deacon or pastor is held in high esteem to alot of people. When you take on that leadership role I think you need to be alot more careful about stuff like drinking a beer in public or selling it.



Sounds like you are trying to imply an exception to the rule or something. *ALL* Christians are called to Godliness. Not just Deacons or Pastors.


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## dawg2 (Feb 28, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Sounds like you are trying to imply an exception to the rule or something. *ALL* Christians are called to Godliness. Not just Deacons or Pastors.



In Timothy they are held to different standards that common churchgoers.


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## PWalls (Feb 28, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> In Timothy they are held to different standards that common churchgoers.



They do have a higher standard in some things because of the leadership and teaching role, but ALL Christians are held to a high calling as well. All Christians are to be Christlike. Implying that Deacons or Pastors can't own a store that sells Alcohol but that other Christians can is a reach and stretch.


----------



## dawg2 (Feb 28, 2008)

PWalls said:


> They do have a higher standard in some things because of the leadership and teaching role, but ALL Christians are held to a high calling as well. All Christians are to be Christlike. Implying that Deacons or Pastors can't own a store that sells Alcohol but that other Christians can is a reach and stretch.



My comment was really directed at your post below:



PWalls said:


> Sounds like you are trying to imply an exception to the rule or something. *ALL* Christians are called to Godliness. Not just Deacons or Pastors.


----------



## leroy (Feb 28, 2008)

PWalls said:


> They do have a higher standard in some things because of the leadership and teaching role, but ALL Christians are held to a high calling as well. All Christians are to be Christlike. Implying that Deacons or Pastors can't own a store that sells Alcohol but that other Christians can is a reach and stretch.



I agree. There was a man in our community lived a rough life drugs big time dealer. He was caught served a pretty long sentence got out and years down the road turned his life around and was saved. He went around to alot of the Churches giving his testimony people talked about how good it was and powerful. Now this man still owned video poker parlors, when they were legal, and I just could not see how he could take advantage of people in this fashion. Never really wanted to hear his testimony because of this. Sorta the same with ones that sell alcohol IMO they are to taking advantage of people. Sorta puts a dark cloud around there witness.


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## BRANCHWYNN (Feb 28, 2008)

i dont believe the term LIBERAL and CONSERVATIVE should be used at all. When I was saved at a young age I was just that SAVED...Through relationship and obedience to GOD I learned that being SAVED is GODS gift that I recieved....making me a Christian...but hold on now....that MADE ME REALIZE...he is MY SAVIOR AND....THATS RIGHT... AND LORD. Its the making JESUS our LORD part that we struggle with as CHRISTIANS. There are millions of SAVED Christians(or baby-immature Christians) who have never grown spiritually from the time they were first saved for years even...without that personal relationship with Him...I believe it is almost impossible to have true wisdom(which) comes from God on identifying what a CHRISTIAN should and know about what GOD believes. And oh yea....I was an immature misinformed ignorant Christian for years.


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## FX Jenkins (Feb 28, 2008)

Back in the day they identified themselves as Pharisees and Sadducee's....focusing more on the "how" rather than the "what" we should be doing


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 28, 2008)

Having money is not a sin. The LOVE of money is the sin.
Eating food is not a sin.  Gluttony is the sin.
Drinking or selling alcohol is not a sin.  It's abuse that is wrong (although I still can't find where it is a 'sin' in the bible).  Even your own Jesus made wine for a wedding celebration, it wasn't for sacramental purposes.  And I'm sure there were people there who were drunk on that wine he made.  Did he contribute to their sin? Would kind of blow the whole religion out of the water, wouldn't it?


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## SBG (Feb 28, 2008)

I smell goat.


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 28, 2008)

SBG said:


> I smell goat.




Where does the bible say drinking alcohol is a sin?


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## Branchminnow (Feb 28, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Even your own Jesus made wine for a wedding celebration, it wasn't for sacramental purposes.  And I'm sure there were people there who were drunk on that wine he made.  Did he contribute to their sin? Would kind of blow the whole religion out of the water, wouldn't it?


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## PWalls (Feb 28, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Where does the bible say drinking alcohol is a sin?



Nowhere to my knowledge. Of course, that wasn't what this thread was about.

The purpose or question of the thread was whether or not a Christian should sell alcohol. It is the opinion of some on here that the interpretation of "stumbling block" would be applicable towards that answer.


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## leroy (Feb 28, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> And I'm sure there were people there who were drunk on that wine he made.  :



really! where did you find this info.


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## Spotlite (Feb 28, 2008)

Hang around a wood stove long enough and you will get smut on you.


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## BRANCHWYNN (Feb 28, 2008)

"STUMBLING BLOCK"....I would love to know the originator of that one....reminds me of a congregation who would witness to others by telling them the good news about "what their preacher says"...I believe you should love and assist your pastor and pray for him daily...it has got to be one of the toughest jobs out there...but just like every other man on the planet he will if focused on him and not Christ he'll let you down with his sin. With that said, if we focus on the sins or so called sins of any man...we've missed the focus of where our Christianity should be. I guess Im wondering what degree of "stumbling block" is it that I must not commit to keep a non-believer or Christian brother from thinkin I may not be saved?


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## Doug B. (Feb 29, 2008)

Romans 14:13
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but to judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

I Corinthians 8:9
But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.


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## SBG (Feb 29, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Where does the bible say drinking alcohol is a sin?





Naaaaaaa. Naaaaaaaaaaaaa. Naaaa.


----------



## BRANCHWYNN (Mar 1, 2008)

wow polecat...never knew that this was a biblical term in the bible...thanks for sharing, I am glad to have learned this. I have assumed that this was just a man made analogy. So now that I have been inlightened, I ask now PWALLS what do you view the stumbling block as in relationship to this thread...I am eagerly awaiting your reply.


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## 60Grit (Mar 1, 2008)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Where does the bible say drinking alcohol is a sin?


 
It doesn't......


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## soopadoopa (Mar 21, 2008)

The bible says that no one sin is worse than another, other than blasphemy.  Alcohol abuse is an outward sin, and I believe is a scapegoat to shift judgemental attention towards others.

Don't know if that makes any sense, but this is one of the issues I've been struggling with for years.


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## 20DCX (Mar 26, 2008)

*none*

I was just wondering if anyone can tell me what scripture says alcohol is a sin?


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## Branchminnow (Mar 26, 2008)

60Grit said:


> It doesn't......



you are right it doesnt, but it does say NOT to be a drunkard, and it you will find scripture that talks about NOT encouraging someone to do the same thing. Thats wrong as well.

Deacons and preachers are NOT supposed to be given to strong drink, therefore if you take one of those titles then its pretty clear where you are supposed to stand.

BTW 60 not saying this to you just My not so humble opinion.


----------



## Twenty five ought six (Mar 26, 2008)

Now here's something that's  real funny, for all the Mason bashers--

Here's the Masonic Rule for membership in Georgia:



> 77-116. Liquor Business.--It is un-Masonic conduct for a Mason to apply for or to procure a license to sell intoxicants or to knowingly retain such a license in his name. Neither may a Mason operate a business in his name while possessing a license for the sale of intoxicants in the name of his wife.



Masonic Lodges bar the possession of alcoholic beverages in the Lodge.


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## Shook (Mar 30, 2008)

Here is my stand on alcohol. And the wine referred to in Christ's time on earth was new wine, and new wine was nothing more than grape juice. So that does not give you the freedom to go out and drink. Not judging, just trying to live my life according to the word of God.

Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.


Judges 13:4 - Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing.


----------



## PWalls (Mar 31, 2008)

BRANCHWYNN said:


> wow polecat...never knew that this was a biblical term in the bible...thanks for sharing, I am glad to have learned this. I have assumed that this was just a man made analogy. So now that I have been inlightened, I ask now PWALLS what do you view the stumbling block as in relationship to this thread...I am eagerly awaiting your reply.



I am sorry I missed. Did not mean to ignore it.

Stumbling Block is this case is doing something that would damage your witness or testimony. If you are actively witnessing to an alcholic or recovering alcoholic, then you should not be seen drinking or especially getting drunk as that would be hypocrisy and lead to a damaged testimony and possibly cause that person to stay away from you and not want to hear the Gospel message. Or, with respect to owning an establishment, you would be selling alcohol to people that abuse it and get in the bad way of that person you were witnessing to that would view that as hypocrisy also. That would be one interpretation with respect to this thread.


----------



## Corey (Mar 31, 2008)

I also think that if you are speaking to a recovering alcoholic or preaching to someone about wrong or right you should not need a cup of coffee to get you started in the morning or smoke/chew. I dont see a lot of diffrence in that or the person that has to get up and take a snort of wisky to get started. 

Both served or used in almost every Resturant/Store or Church I have ever been in. 

Please correct me if im wrong. 

Corey


----------



## dawg2 (Mar 31, 2008)

Corey said:


> I also think that if you are speaking to a recovering alcoholic or preaching to someone about wrong or right you should not need a cup of coffee to get you started in the morning or smoke/chew. I dont see a lot of diffrence in that or the person that has to get up and take a snort of wisky to get started.....
> 
> 
> Corey




I'd like to hear comments on that post above.  I think it makes a good point(s)


----------



## Branchminnow (Apr 4, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> I'd like to hear comments on that post above.  I think it makes a good point(s)



Why dont you get us started????


----------



## dawg2 (Apr 4, 2008)

Branchminnow said:


> Why dont you get us started????



My wife's the big coffee drinker


----------



## whitworth (Apr 6, 2008)

*I've always been an admirer*

of anyone changing water into wine.  

A brew master at a beer brewery is as close as anyone in my family ever got.


----------



## Branchminnow (Apr 6, 2008)

whitworth said:


> of anyone changing water into wine.
> 
> A brew master at a beer brewery is as close as anyone in my family ever got.


----------



## formula1 (Apr 7, 2008)

HuntDawg said:


> Jesus made it and drank it.  He committed no sins.



I couldn't have said it better myself.


----------



## soopadoopa (Nov 2, 2008)

http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=988

OOOOOOKKKKKKKK

I know, I've dug deep for this one. BUT.... it was one of my favorite threads here, and i've come across info since then that really gets down into the heart of this, I believe.  Please read the whole article with an open mind, and then decide what you think. Notice, too, that it's all backed up with scripture. I just thought it was interesting.


----------



## Jeffriesw (Nov 3, 2008)

soopadoopa said:


> http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=988
> 
> OOOOOOKKKKKKKK
> 
> I know, I've dug deep for this one. BUT.... it was one of my favorite threads here, and i've come across info since then that really gets down into the heart of this, I believe.  Please read the whole article with an open mind, and then decide what you think. Notice, too, that it's all backed up with scripture. I just thought it was interesting.





Thanks for the link! 

It is always nice to see a piece written with the research and backup done from the scriptures. I will probably reread it again when I have more time to get more in depth.


----------



## Branchminnow (Nov 3, 2008)

Shook said:


> Here is my stand on alcohol. And the wine referred to in Christ's time on earth was new wine, and new wine was nothing more than grape juice. So that does not give you the freedom to go out and drink. Not judging, just trying to live my life according to the word of God.
> 
> Proverbs 20:1 - Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.
> 
> ...



DEU 34:14 Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape.


----------



## Branchminnow (Nov 3, 2008)

soopadoopa said:


> http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=988
> 
> OOOOOOKKKKKKKK
> 
> I know, I've dug deep for this one. BUT.... it was one of my favorite threads here, and i've come across info since then that really gets down into the heart of this, I believe.  Please read the whole article with an open mind, and then decide what you think. Notice, too, that it's all backed up with scripture. I just thought it was interesting.




This man did not   use the KJV of the bible.............


----------



## Lorri (Nov 3, 2008)

Quote:
Originally Posted by HuntDawg  
Jesus made it and drank it. He committed no sins. 


I agree with you formula 1 as well - is it anywhere in
the bible that Jesus committed a sin while drinking wine?


----------



## Swamp Buggy (Nov 3, 2008)

Polecat,"I do not think it is right for a Christian to own an establishment that sells alcohol, or for a Christian to sell it for someone else. What if it did contribute to someone else's sin? Do we think we would not be held accountable?"

Polecat, What if a Christian owns a gun shop and he sells someone a gun and that person commits murder with it? same thing buddy. Alcohol is a legal product and can legally be sold to persons 21 and older. Jesus drank wine, a lot of it, he did not abuse it. He turned water into wine. So where does it end? That Christian business owner according to some here should not sell alcohol, how about condoms? or for that matter Burger King, McDonald's, people feed that garbage to their kids and fact is that the fast food is not healthy and that endangering your child parents should be held accountable for this. BUT....one can make a issue out of anything. How about "Personal Responsibility?"


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## soopadoopa (Nov 4, 2008)

Branchminnow said:


> This man did not   use the KJV of the bible.............





when you put the cursor over the scripture links, a box with the whole verse pops up. in that box there's a blue "read more" link. When you click that, a page full of verses opens from several different versions, including the KJV.


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## dawg2 (Nov 4, 2008)

luckylady said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by HuntDawg
> Jesus made it and drank it. He committed no sins.
> 
> ...



He was called a drunk in a verse.

Matthew 11

19  The Son of Man came eating and drinking and they said, 'Look, he is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' But wisdom is vindicated by her works."


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## soopadoopa (Nov 8, 2008)

You're not saying that because he was called a drunk, that he sinned, right? By my understanding, he wasn't drunk, but they thought he was by the way he was talking. I feel like he couldn't have been called a drunk if he had never drank any alcohol.


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## Scrambler89 (Nov 19, 2008)

lowjack sell the pharmices more people do legal prescripts than illegel


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## Six million dollar ham (Nov 19, 2008)

SBG said:


> I've never heard of anyone that has killed someone in a car crash when they were under the influence of ribs, or beat their wife and kids because they were out of their mind on Big Macs.



Gluttony leading to wasting tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of healthcare resources as a diabetic, heart surgery, dialysis, amputation, and a month in ICU before dying has got to count as a sin somehow.


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## Six million dollar ham (Nov 19, 2008)

Scrambler89 said:


> lowjack sell the pharmices more people do legal prescripts than illegel



I totally agree.


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## Double Barrel BB (Nov 20, 2008)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Gluttony leading to wasting tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of healthcare resources as a diabetic, heart surgery, dialysis, amputation, and a month in ICU before dying has got to count as a sin somehow.


 

What about the people that can not loose weight? I have seen several people eat what they are supposed to, exercise like they are supposed to and still be overweight?

What about those that have diabetes by no fault of their own? It is just how their body works, and they try to control it the best that they can, but they still loose limbs, have kidney failure... and spend a month in ICU dying....

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Nov 20, 2008)

Scrambler89 said:


> lowjack sell the pharmices more people do legal prescripts than illegel


 

Gee, I wonder how these people are getting the scripts...

DB BB


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## Six million dollar ham (Nov 20, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> What about the people that can not loose weight? I have seen several people eat what they are supposed to, exercise like they are supposed to and still be overweight?
> 
> What about those that have diabetes by no fault of their own? It is just how their body works, and they try to control it the best that they can, but they still loose limbs, have kidney failure... and spend a month in ICU dying....
> 
> DB BB



Then that's not gluttony.  Don't worry, God'll know the difference, right?  But I guess as long as you're saved it won't matter either way.


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## fishndinty (Nov 20, 2008)

Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish;Let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.  Proverbs, Chapter 31 verse 6 and 7

Seems like the Bible might not be talking about the "new wine" here.  Also, the wedding patrons at the sight of Jesus' first miracle at Cana were amazed because the best wine had been saved for last....this was not traditional because wine numbs the palate, WHEN IT HAS ALCOHOL IN IT!!!  Seems pretty solid evidence that Jesus served up 28 proof, not grape juice.

Also, if we consider our bodies the temple of Christ, there are tangible benefits to moderate alcohol consumption...it mitigates other risk factors for heart disease.  Not to mention the high antioxidant concentrations in red wines of most vintages.


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## Israel (Nov 20, 2008)

I agree, but unfortunately if a Christian owns an establishment that _gives_ beer and wine away, he probably won't be in business for long.


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## gtparts (Nov 20, 2008)

fishndinty said:


> Give beer to those who are perishing, wine to those who are in anguish;Let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.  Proverbs, Chapter 31 verse 6 and 7
> 
> Seems like the Bible might not be talking about the "new wine" here.  Also, the wedding patrons at the sight of Jesus' first miracle at Cana were amazed because the best wine had been saved for last....this was not traditional because wine numbs the palate, WHEN IT HAS ALCOHOL IN IT!!!  Seems pretty solid evidence that Jesus served up 28 proof, not grape juice.
> 
> Also, if we consider our bodies the temple of Christ, there are tangible benefits to moderate alcohol consumption...it mitigates other risk factors for heart disease.  Not to mention the high antioxidant concentrations in red wines of most vintages.



You can shay that ... what he shaid..... bout boo...aclaho... shpirits...that... what? ..  me? ..... intoshicated..... I... I... I woot.... I absholutley wooden do such a thing. I'll have you know tha...that I'm slober as a jug.....judge. Line? Wish one do you wan me t'walk? Blow on your own hat!


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## Double Barrel BB (Nov 21, 2008)

Six million dollar ham said:


> But I guess as long as you're saved it won't matter either way.


 

Salvation does not give you a license to sin, that is where you are wrong....

DB BB


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## gtparts (Nov 21, 2008)

Israel said:


> I agree, but unfortunately if a Christian owns an establishment that _gives_ beer and wine away, he probably won't be in business for long.



Me thinks the proverb addresses the issue of compassion, i.e. relieving the suffering of the perishing, those in agony. I also think Solomon was not so much looking from a spiritual perspective, but more as an observer of human suffering at the final stage of earthly existence.....with that in mind, let's open the Hospice Hofbrauhaus, "where everybody knows your pain". Cheers!


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## fishndinty (Nov 21, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Me thinks the proverb addresses the issue of compassion, i.e. relieving the suffering of the perishing, those in agony. I also think Solomon was not so much looking from a spiritual perspective, but more as an observer of human suffering at the final stage of earthly existence.....with that in mind, let's open the Hospice Hofbrauhaus, "where everybody knows your pain". Cheers!



Now, not all anguish is physical...sometimes after a draining week of stress and disappointment, there's nothing better than a few beers to take the edge off.  Seems like the author of this Proverb agrees.  And I don't know about you guys, but drinking until I remember my troubles no more requires at least a modicum of drunkenness....

The Bible does forbid drunkenness which leads to debauchery (Ephesians 5:18), but it seems like just plain old drunkenness is not expressly forbidden in Scripture.  I could be wrong about this, and I am not telling everyone to rush out and get trashed according to the Bible!

I am not sure where the line is, but I am sure that the Scriptures have no solid evidence for total prohibition of alcohol consumption.  I've supported that case with Scripture....what say those of you who side with Billy Sunday?


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## RSC (Nov 21, 2008)

NO problem with it.


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## idsman75 (Dec 4, 2008)

DCHunter said:


> To be honest...I don't know.



You refrain for the sake of the ignorant--not that you are wrong but they are naive and ignorant.

I Corinthians 8

v. 9 - 13

9Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol's temple, won't he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? 11So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. 12When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.


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## ambush80 (Dec 4, 2008)

fishndinty said:


> Now, not all anguish is physical...sometimes after a draining week of stress and disappointment, there's nothing better than a few beers to take the edge off.  Seems like the author of this Proverb agrees.  And I don't know about you guys, but drinking until I remember my troubles no more requires at least a modicum of drunkenness....
> 
> The Bible does forbid drunkenness which leads to debauchery (Ephesians 5:18), but it seems like just plain old drunkenness is not expressly forbidden in Scripture.  I could be wrong about this, and I am not telling everyone to rush out and get trashed according to the Bible!
> 
> I am not sure where the line is, but I am sure that the Scriptures have no solid evidence for total prohibition of alcohol consumption.  I've supported that case with Scripture....what say those of you who side with Billy Sunday?



you are a reasonable christian.  i admire that.


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