# Church attendance required by Scripture?



## LittleDrummerBoy (Jun 7, 2019)

My view is that while attendance in a Bible believing and teaching church is certainly wise and advisable, it does not seem to be required by Scripture.

The oft cited "Do not give up meeting together" (Heb 10:25) can be satisfied with gatherings with other Christians in other venues that may not be traditional American churches.  Some examples might be home gatherings, fellowship over meals, and other places where Christians might meet together, study the Bible, worship, pray, and consider how to fulfill the great commission.  

I will also note that I've seen nothing in the 21st century American church to suggest it is any better than the 1st century church.  If one reads Revelation 2-3, one sees that Jesus had strong words of rebuke for 6 of 7 churches addressed.  

Given these facts, it seems odd that Christians are so quick to judge other Christians' spirituality by their church attendance.  Sure, we are instructed to judge trees by their fruit, but if church attendance is not even demanded by Scripture, there are many character issues that would be a higher priority - you know the things that are actually required by Scripture.


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## 4HAND (Jun 7, 2019)

I don't think it's required, but I think its wise. We love our church & are very involved. 
I also believe there's strength in numbers. Meeting with fellow believers who can help with your burdens as well as celebrate your victories.


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## GunnSmokeer (Jun 8, 2019)

It's not required for salvation. 
Failure to attend church isn't a sin, unless you hate the church and hold churchgoers in contempt.  There are plenty of pseudo-christians in this camp, who think all churches are man-made institutions created to enrich the founding pastor and his family by fleecing the flock.  Some people think your local church is the moral equal to Benny Hinn or Jim Baker or other televangelist fraudsters.


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## GunnSmokeer (Jun 8, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> ...
> 
> The oft cited "Do not give up meeting together" (Heb 10:25) can be satisfied with gatherings with other Christians in other venues that may not be traditional American churches.  Some examples might be home gatherings, fellowship over meals, and other places where Christians might meet together, study the Bible, worship, pray, and consider how to fulfill the great commission.
> 
> ...Sure, we are instructed to judge trees by their fruit, but if church attendance is not even demanded by Scripture...




Since we are to know the tree by its fruit, I want to know if your question is based on reality or idle speculation, purely academic.  How many angels can dance on the head of this pin?

Have you ever in your life known of a godly Christian, who proclaims Christ to the world, who confesses with his (or her) mouth that Jesus is Lord, and spreads the Gospel in fulfillment of the Great Commission, who was NOT regularly attending church? Set aside the special cases of polio victims in iron lungs and missionaries on desert islands.  Among normal able-bodied Americans who live in communities from which there are many churches to choose from, are there ANY who walk in Christ in every other way but turn their back on any organization called a "church" that meets in a special building set aside for that purpose?


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## GeorgiaBob (Jun 8, 2019)

When followers of the recently crucified rabbi Jesus first gathered, they looked for rooms where they wouldn't be discovered and turned over to authorities. By the time Saul the Tentmaker from Tarsus started hunting down the Jews who still gathered in the Name of Jesus, the people were were using symbols scratched in the dirt to point out the next gathering. When later writers retold the stories of Jesus, nearly everyone who believed that Jesus was the real Messiah would meet with friends and fellow believers in one of their houses.

It would be centuries before followers of the one called (in Greek) the Christ, could afford (both in money and in risk) to erect purpose built houses of worship - and even then Christians met often in each other's homes to celebrate the Risen Lord.

Where two or three are gathered in My name . . .


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 8, 2019)

looks to me like the early church met in the temple and in home.  It wasn't just one service a week to hold them over til next service.

Act 2:46-47

46 Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 8, 2019)

I read Paul. It seems to me he indicates the purpose for the Church and our part within it as the body of Christ. So by his definitions I understand we are not lone rangers, but we are instead all to one body the church. It is our lot ( if I understood correctly)  as believers to  help build up the saints and therefore the church,  to further the gospel and  each  by his own gifts help make converts. But maybe I read scripture with a worldly mind and what Paul said is way over my hearts capacity to relate to--- as if I was still in my sins and hypocritically a lone ranger. Personally if the sun or the rain on a Sunday morning with a fishing pole in my hands, not to mention a  good fight on the line, could get me "right" with God, I'd sell everything and buy a boat and truck to haul it. But been there done that, and been very lonesome for it-- even thought I enjoy my own company.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jun 8, 2019)

GunnSmokeer said:


> Since we are to know the tree by its fruit, I want to know if your question is based on reality or idle speculation, purely academic.  How many angels can dance on the head of this pin?



My question is practical on several fronts:
1.  There have been times in my life when my wife and I have not regularly attended "church" often due to challenges in finding a traditional local church that was Biblical.  During these times, we took care to maintain fellowship with other believers, to be disciples, and to make disciples.  In hindsight, these periods did not seem to negatively impact our Christian growth, testimony, or the strength of our marriage.
2.  My wife and I know a number of young Christians some distance away such that we cannot personally assist them in finding a traditional church to attend regularly.  These include our own college-age children and other students we have mentored or discipled.   As a practical matter, I'm not to concerned whether their regular fellowship comes through a traditional church, a campus fellowship, a Bible study, or some combination of the above.  Not regularly attended a traditional Church has not seemed to hold back their growth or lead to backsliding.
3.  One church we recently visited has a pretty pushy message based on Hebrews 10:25 that Christians have a duty to attend church regularly and seems to reject the possibility that the instruction of Hebrews 10:25 could be meet by meeting and fellowship with other believers in different venues.
4.  It is harder to find a Biblical church in 2019 than it was when I became a believer in 1989.  New believers (by definition) are spiritual infants and don't have great discernment or Bible knowledge.  Pressure to attend church seems like an undue burden and probably should be a lower priority than other aspects of being a new disciple such as:
A. Reading Scripture, praying, and worshiping regularly
B. Getting baptized
C. Repenting of disqualifying sins as those listed in 1 Cor 5 and Gal 5
D. Working to develop Christian character such as the qualities described in 2 Peter 1.



GunnSmokeer said:


> Have you ever in your life known of a godly Christian, who proclaims Christ to the world, who confesses with his (or her) mouth that Jesus is Lord, and spreads the Gospel in fulfillment of the Great Commission, who was NOT regularly attending church?



Yes.  A number of cases.



GunnSmokeer said:


> Set aside the special cases of polio victims in iron lungs and missionaries on desert islands.  Among normal able-bodied Americans who live in communities from which there are many churches to choose from, are there ANY who walk in Christ in every other way but turn their back on any organization called a "church" that meets in a special building set aside for that purpose?



My experience and the experiences of those close to me has caused me to doubt your premise that seems to be that there is still a good, Biblical church within an easy commute of everywhere in America.  Being without a car in some places makes the effective radius of an easy commute much smaller.  Further, I doubt your premise that a Christian should bother to keep looking for a traditional church meeting if their fellowship and discipleship needs are being adequately met by another group of believers that does not happen to meet in a traditional church.


Why should I tell the college students I know, "That Bible study and campus fellowship are insufficient.  You need to find a real church to attend on Sunday mornings.  I know you've tried all the ones within walking distance of campus and are disgusted with their approval of gay marriage and other compromises.  But you should just keep expanding your search radius"?

Why should I tell new believers I know, "That group you meet with during the week is insufficient. It's great that you are reading your Bible every day and assembling with other believers for worship and Bible study.  But that group is insufficient because it does not call itself a church and does not meet on Sunday."?

Are these believers perfect?  Nope.  But they are growing in their faith and their character.  At some point, I expect the Lord will lead them to a local church that meets their needs and where they can find greater service in the Lord.  But since the Bible tells us, "Do not go beyond what is written" I want to take care not to burden them beyond what Scripture itself requires.

Adding rules beyond what Scripture instructs is just more dead tradition and legalism.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 8, 2019)

every college student I know that wanted to go somewhere bad enough had a friend, instructor, coach, or other means to get there.  Shoot, some even travel to the beach on the weekends.  I don't think transportation is a hold up.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jun 8, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> every college student I know that wanted to go somewhere bad enough had a friend, instructor, coach, or other means to get there.  Shoot, some even travel to the beach on the weekends.  I don't think transportation is a hold up.



Perhaps, but either you can give a Scriptural reason why a college student needs to attend a traditional church in addition to an on campus fellowship or bible study, or you cannot.

Why does a college student need to keep visiting local churches once they have found other Christian fellowship to meet their needs?  Why jump through the hoops to arrange transportation if attending a "real" church is not an instruction of Scripture.

Either quote the chapter and verse, or admit that there isn't one.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 8, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Perhaps, but either you can give a Scriptural reason why a college student needs to attend a traditional church in addition to an on campus fellowship or bible study, or you cannot.
> 
> Why does a college student need to keep visiting local churches once they have found other Christian fellowship to meet their needs?  Why jump through the hoops to arrange transportation if attending a "real" church is not an instruction of Scripture.
> 
> Either quote the chapter and verse, or admit that there isn't one.



triggered much?  I didn't say there was Scripture that says ' Thou shalt be in a church building every Sunday morning"  

I think that we, as Christians, often time look for reasons not to go to church, rather than seeking a way to be in church.  A lot of the reasons given are just because there are other things we would rather be doing than sitting in a pew listening to a preacher.  I understand.  A lot of church now is just repetition and ceremony.

When the power of the living God descended on the people in Acts 2, I don't think they people were saying ' I can worship God while I am fishing on the Sea of Galilee.'


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## dirtnap (Jun 8, 2019)

I believe a better question would be why would a follower of Christ not want to be in a Bible believing church worshipping with other believers? I know you’ve pointed out that it’s harder to find a true Bible teaching church than it used to be, but let’s be honest, if you really want to find one, you can.


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## furtaker (Jun 8, 2019)

Some of the most judgmental, hateful people I've known were regular church attenders.  And they think they are/were more spiritual than anybody else because they go to church all the time and think they "own" the church they attend.  Personally, I don't think the good Lord thinks too fondly of that attitude.

The Bible teaches that a person is saved by grace through faith alone in Jesus with no works involved whatsoever.  The instant I believe in the Son, I have eternal life.  Period.  It's a good thing to worship in a church that teaches the Bible clearly, but don't be fooled into thinking that "church attendance" is more important than witnessing, studying the Scripture, and loving and helping your fellow man.  In fact, I think attending church is of much lesser importance than those.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 8, 2019)

what is the purpose of a believer attending church, anyway?


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## JB0704 (Jun 8, 2019)

dirtnap said:


> I believe a better question would be why would a follower of Christ not want to be in a Bible believing church worshipping with other believers? I know you’ve pointed out that it’s harder to find a true Bible teaching church than it used to be, but let’s be honest, if you really want to find one, you can.



There’s a whole slew of reasons why a believer wouldn’t want to be a part of church.  I left almost 10 years ago, and do not regret it.  My faith is just as strong, I still give, I still serve, I put my kids in Christian school.  But, being part of a local church?  Nah.  My reason is simple, the circular logic of attendance.......everybody acknowledges problems and spins it off as “imperfect people,” but very few if any care to try to fix them.  Then, u get beat up about not being part of a body that they recognize is broken but any effort to fix it is viewed as an assault on unity.

As far as college kids goes I have a son who has seen me leave the church, stayed in it himself, left home for a public college and has found a local church to attend twice a week as well as being part of his campus Baptist Collegiate Ministry.  I let him make these choices and support him in doing so..........and I sincerely hope he never sees the things I saw.  My hope for all my kids is that they are able to enjoy attending church.   I just can’t be part of it anymore.

BTW, tons of old threads on this topic, some started by me when I was very new in my protest.


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## JB0704 (Jun 8, 2019)

furtaker said:


> Some of the most judgmental, hateful people I've known were regular church attenders.  And they think they are/were more spiritual than anybody else because they go to church all the time and think they "own" the church they attend.  Personally, I don't think the good Lord thinks too fondly of that attitude.
> 
> The Bible teaches that a person is saved by grace through faith alone in Jesus with no works involved whatsoever.  The instant I believe in the Son, I have eternal life.  Period.  It's a good thing to worship in a church that teaches the Bible clearly, but don't be fooled into thinking that "church attendance" is more important than witnessing, studying the Scripture, and loving and helping your fellow man.  In fact, I think attending church is of much lesser importance than those.



......and this ^^^^

Amazing how folks who go to church think that makes them a step ahead of the rest of folks that don’t.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jun 8, 2019)

So what's the key ingredient that makes gatherings that call themselves a "church" better than other gatherings of believers for fellowship, Bible study, worship, and carrying out the great commission?

Meeting on Sunday?  Being tax exempt under the IRS code?  Having a certain leadership structure?  Calling themselves a "church"?

In the years when my wife and I were not regularly attending church, we attended a Messianic fellowship that met in the home of a gentleman who called himself a "Rabbi."  I never really dug into his credentials or the legal organization of the group.  The "Rabbi" knew the Bible really well.  The teaching was solid.  We enjoyed the fellowship of other believers in the group and the worship on Saturday mornings.  I've been a Christian for 30 years, and regularly attended church on Sundays for all the years but these.  But I can't really think of any additional benefit for our family that would have come from being part of a group that called themselves a "church" and met on Sundays instead.  Nor can I think of any additional benefit for the broader body of Christ or for the Kingdom of God.

Likewise, my sons attend Bible studies and a campus fellowship at college.  When they are at home, they attend our church with their mother and I.  But through the years, I have instilled in them values consistent with "Sola Scriptura".  They know the Bible very well and would quickly call me on it if I insisted they attend a "church" while at college when as far as I can tell, their needs are sufficiently met by our home church combined with their campus fellowship activities.  What would my Biblical basis be for telling them, "You need to attend a group that calls itself a church each week?"

Why do we burden believers with expectations and requirements that are not found in Scripture?  Why do we go beyond the instructions of Scripture, when Scripture itself instructs us, "Do not go beyond what is written"?


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## Israel (Jun 9, 2019)

Perhaps the benefit of "going to _a _church", going to a meeting, meetings, or any place whatsoever; work, home school, the dinner table, the movies, the ball game, vacation, or jail, is in the going in full conviction that none of these "things done" will, or does, make one any better than you "were", nor improves you, nor any better than any other you might else wise encounter there in the "doing" or going.

Nor does it increase one's acceptability to God.

Now this conviction, which may or may not be stated, expressed (verbally), or in any other way sought to be..._made known, _will nevertheless have a fragrance (as all convictions do) that to some will be quite refreshing, to others as repugnant as a swamp in July with a cow carcass rotting in it.

Whoever thinks they may "help themself" in choosing how they will, or should be perceived, received...or not, is dancing to a diabolical tune. As is the one who believes "his endorsement" or "his rejection and resistance" is according to his own ability to recognize and choose _the good. _

Are we forbidden the having of preference? God forbid.

Are we silly believing God's _allowing of our preference_ is anything other than grace exercised _toward us, _as a favor_ done particularly for us?_

God knows.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 24, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Either quote the chapter and verse, or admit that there isn't one.



THAT'S THE OLD CHRISTIAN SPIRIT BROTHER.  We all know if it ain't in the text, it don't apply.  Ironically I have a hard time putting my finger on the exact verse that states that, but I'm sure its there.   Then again, maybe there's a reason God put eyes on my head away from my heart  instead of on my heart, away from my head..... Maybe.


Ravi Zacharias:

“We now learn to listen with our eyes and think with our feelings. . . . We are meant to see _through_ the eye, with the conscience; when we start seeing _with_ the eye devoid of the conscience, all kinds of belief can invade your imagination.”

William Blake:
This life’s dim windows of the soul Distorts the heavens from pole to pole And leads you to believe a lie When you see with, not through, the eye.​​C.S. Lewis:
I was standing today in the dark toolshed. The sun was shining outside and through the crack at the top of the door there came a sunbeam. From where I stood that beam of light, with the specks of dust floating in it, was the most striking thing in the place. Everything else was almost pitch-black. I was seeing the beam, not seeing things by it.​Then I moved, so that the beam fell on my eyes. Instantly the whole previous picture vanished. I saw no toolshed, and (above all) no beam. Instead I saw, framed in the irregular cranny at the top of the door, green leaves moving on the branches of a tree outside and beyond that, 90 odd million miles away, the sun. Looking along the beam, and looking at the beam are very different experiences.​


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 24, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> My question is practical on several fronts:
> 1.  There have been times in my life when my wife and I have not regularly attended "church" often due to challenges in finding a traditional local church that was Biblical.  During these times, we took care to maintain fellowship with other believers, to be disciples, and to make disciples.  In hindsight, these periods did not seem to negatively impact our Christian growth, testimony, or the strength of our marriage.
> 2.  My wife and I know a number of young Christians some distance away such that we cannot personally assist them in finding a traditional church to attend regularly.  These include our own college-age children and other students we have mentored or discipled.   As a practical matter, I'm not to concerned whether their regular fellowship comes through a traditional church, a campus fellowship, a Bible study, or some combination of the above.  Not regularly attended a traditional Church has not seemed to hold back their growth or lead to backsliding.
> 3.  One church we recently visited has a pretty pushy message based on Hebrews 10:25 that Christians have a duty to attend church regularly and seems to reject the possibility that the instruction of Hebrews 10:25 could be meet by meeting and fellowship with other believers in different venues.
> ...



It's a very heady list, yet forgive me if I overlooked the mention of "love", or if I'm wrong in my belief that without that as THE guiding principle, it really doesn't matter what else you have right, no matter where you go or how often you go, or don't go, to assemble.  If you have love of God and love of your brothers as your guiding principles, the scriptures become very self explanatory.  Without it, they become nothing more than is being exhibited here: a doctrinal spat of what's more right, more wrong, or what's better: hand vs. eye so to speak. 

Truth is, as has been alluded to by others:  If you understood this, you never would have asked the question, much less debated it.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jun 27, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> It's a very heady list, yet forgive me if I overlooked the mention of "love", or if I'm wrong in my belief that without that as THE guiding principle, it really doesn't matter what else you have right, no matter where you go or how often you go, or don't go, to assemble.  If you have love of God and love of your brothers as your guiding principles, the scriptures become very self explanatory.  Without it, they become nothing more than is being exhibited here: a doctrinal spat of what's more right, more wrong, or what's better: hand vs. eye so to speak.
> 
> Truth is, as has been alluded to by others:  If you understood this, you never would have asked the question, much less debated it.



Love is representing the requirements of Scripture honestly.  Love for Jesus is obeying his commands.  Misrepresenting "church attendance" as a command of Scripture is not love.  It is bearing false witness to the commands of Scripture.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 27, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Love is representing the requirements of Scripture honestly.  Love for Jesus is obeying his commands.



"Requirements"?????  

Listen Brother.  There are no requirements of a saved man.  Everything he does, he does out of love for Christ.  He continually strives to worship God every waking moment with every fiber of his being: not out of a sense of necessity, not out of fear, not out of duty.  He does it because he has truly seen his brokenness laid naked, the sickening,depraved, monstrosity that HE is, the very essence of his being, and he has seen God take that anguish, pain, torment that he wrought upon himself, wipe it away and form a fellowship with him bringing peace, TRUE, HOLY, ETERNAL peace.  And my friend because of that, there is NOTHING more valuable than that FELLOWSHIP with his God. 

 Every "requirement" that the unsaved man strives for, he will never meet.   The saved man, solely focused on his fellowship with God, meets and exceeds them all: yet they are nothing to him if even noticed at all.  For truly they are nothing: akin to the molted feathers of a bird flying high above ever ascending up, up, up.  

I hope you can grasp this at some point.  It's the difference between life and death, peace and fear.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jun 28, 2019)

I'm working to carry out the Great Commission, and I trust other Christians have the same goal.

18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” 

In teaching disciples to observe all that Jesus commanded, we need to be clear what is and what is not included.

Church attendance is not included in the commands of Jesus.  It is that simple.  Christians who teach that it is are mistaken.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 28, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I'm working to carry out the Great Commission, and I trust other Christians have the same goal.
> 
> 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
> 
> ...



WDJD?  what did Jesus do?  

He attend temple, and he made sure to attend the feasts and celebrations.  He also commanded the disciples to meet together and not leave until the day of Pentecost.

Jesus didn't say for you to read your Bible everyday either.  So I guess we should throw that thing in the dumpster and forget it was ever printed


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jun 28, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> WDJD?  what did Jesus do?
> 
> He attend temple, and he made sure to attend the feasts and celebrations.  He also commanded the disciples to meet together and not leave until the day of Pentecost.



Sure, none of that is questioned.  The question at hand is whether the Biblical instruction to meet together (with other believers) needs to be fulfilled by regular church attendance, or whether this instruction can be adequately met by meeting in other venues.




NE GA Pappy said:


> Jesus didn't say for you to read your Bible everyday either.  So I guess we should throw that thing in the dumpster and forget it was ever printed



Do you believe that Jesus is Yahweh (the God of the Old Testament)?  I certainly do.  Consequently, his commands include:

Deuteronomy 6:4-9
4 “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 5 You shall love the Lordyour God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. 6 And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. 7 You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. 8 You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. 9 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.

Joshua 1:8 This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it.  

Let us not commit the error of thinking Jesus' commands are limited to the red letters.


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## j_seph (Jun 28, 2019)

So church is in the bible 114 times. Must be some importance of Church.
*Acts 2:47* - Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. 
Matthew 18:17    
    And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 28, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Sure, none of that is questioned.  The question at hand is whether the Biblical instruction to meet together (with other believers) needs to be fulfilled by regular church attendance, or whether this instruction can be adequately met by meeting in other venues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






> Let us not commit the error of thinking Jesus' commands are limited to the red letters.



You are committing the error of thinking you can follow even one of them, but I'm wasting both of our time going any further.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 28, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> S
> 
> Do you believe that Jesus is Yahweh (the God of the Old Testament)?  I certainly do.



funny you should mention that.  He commanded attendance at Sabbath, festivals and celebrations.  It was required attendance weekly on the Sabbath to go to the local temple and required once a year to travel to Jerusalem to temple.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jun 29, 2019)

j_seph said:


> So church is in the bible 114 times. Must be some importance of Church.
> *Acts 2:47* - Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
> Matthew 18:17
> And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.



No doubt the church is important, but the church in Scripture is the entire body of Jesus' disciples.  Most of the meetings I've seen of traditional American groups that call themselves "churches" are much different from groups of 1st century disciples.

Any gathering of believers is a meeting of the "church" even if not in the context of a traditional American group calling itself a church.

Lots of folks assume that meeting in a traditional American church somehow fulfills the directives of Scripture better than informal meetings of believers.  But no one has offered a compelling case from Scripture.

What do formal meetings of the traditional American church offer that informal meetings of believers and formal meetings of believers in other contexts do not offer?


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jun 29, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> funny you should mention that.  He commanded attendance at Sabbath



Please quote the Scripture where Yahweh commanded attendance every Sabbath.  The commands regarding the Sabbath were about resting from work, not attending a meeting.  You are mistaken.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 29, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> No doubt the church is important, but the church in Scripture is the entire body of Jesus' disciples.  Most of the meetings I've seen of traditional American groups that call themselves "churches" are much different from groups of 1st century disciples.
> 
> Any gathering of believers is a meeting of the "church" even if not in the context of a traditional American group calling itself a church.
> 
> ...



OK.  Just for fun let’s flip the script.  What benefits does an informal meeting of believers have over attending a formal meeting.  Also, and this is key, because it goes to the heart of your point.  What scripture commands one to attend an informal meeting of believers?

I’m just gonna take a guess, but judging by your comments and the subjects your have brought up I’m getting a picture of someone who is legalistic to the point he’s not happy in a JW, Mormon, or Charasmatic and maybe he’s found a group of like minded folks that think that after 2000 years their little group had finally got it right.  Just guessing.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jun 30, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I’m just gonna take a guess, but judging by your comments and the subjects your have brought up I’m getting a picture of someone who is legalistic to the point he’s not happy in a JW, Mormon, or Charasmatic and maybe he’s found a group of like minded folks that think that after 2000 years their little group had finally got it right.  Just guessing.



Not at all.  I'm a leader in a local church that is affiliated with the largest protestant denomination in the United States.  I strive for Biblical Christianity over legalism, since the first paragraph in our denomination's statement of faith reads:

*The Holy Bible was written by men divinely inspired and is God's revelation of Himself to man. It is a perfect treasure of divine instruction. It has God for its author, salvation for its end, and truth, without any mixture of error, for its matter. Therefore, all Scripture is totally true and trustworthy. It reveals the principles by which God judges us, and therefore is, and will remain to the end of the world, the true center of Christian union, and the supreme standard by which all human conduct, creeds, and religious opinions should be tried. *

If the Bible is the supreme standard by which all religious opinions should be tried, then this certainly includes the religious opinion that regular church attendance is a Christian duty.  I'm just trying to be faithful to the beliefs espoused in the Baptist Faith and Message of the SBC.



SemperFiDawg said:


> OK.  Just for fun let’s flip the script.  What benefits does an informal meeting of believers have over attending a formal meeting.  Also, and this is key, because it goes to the heart of your point.  What scripture commands one to attend an informal meeting of believers?



What advantage?  Not much for me, since I was in regular attendance in a Southern Baptist Church 16 times during the month of June, leading 8 of those meetings.

Scripture is silent on whether the "meeting together" Christians are instructed to "not give up" needs to be formal or informal.  Simply because I have a preference for formal meetings does not mean my exercise of my own Christian liberty is a better choice than another Christian brother who may prefer informal meetings.  Any other view would violate the view of my Southern Baptist Convention:

*God alone is Lord of the conscience, and He has left it free from the doctrines and commandments of men which are contrary to His Word or not contained in it. *

Since my preference for formal meetings is not contained in His Word, I would be in error to go beyond what is written and suggest my brothers who prefer informal meetings are in error.

The purpose of this discussion is not to defend my own preference for formal meetings of a traditional American church, but rather to acknowledge the legitimacy of the preferences of others that may be different from my own, but still in accord with Scripture and Christian liberty.

What are the purported "benefits" of informal meetings?  I've heard those who prefer them offer the following:

1.  One encounters fewer hypocrites.  I think I tend to agree with this one.  I prefer church, but I cannot disagree than I've encountered more hypocrites in formal Christian settings than informal ones.

2.  Less pressure to give money.  God loves a cheerful giver, but I've seen much more arm twisting for giving from the pulpit and from formal Christian groups than in informal settings. 

3.  Less exercise of unBiblical authority.  In my experience, nearly all the exercise of unBiblical authority (bossing others around) among Christians has come in formal settings.

4.  Better teaching.  I have to agree here.  Books, radio, internet, and close friends offer better teaching (on average) than I've seen during church attendance over the past decade.  Most Sunday sermons are stuck in milk mode - get saved and Christianity 101.  

5.  Better worship.  I'd agree here also.  My best worship times are at home, either singing with my wife or just worshiping with the radio or a YouTube playlist.

6.  Less legalism.  I agree here also.  I hear many more legalistic teachings in the formal church than in informal settings. 

To be sure, all of us who favor formal church settings should be working hard to improve the church experience so that the above things are not true.

What are you doing to stomp out the legalisms in your church?  Why not start with the legalistic notion that church attendance is a Christian duty?


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## Israel (Jun 30, 2019)

I never know, of myself, those places where I have allowed ritual to become some sort of substance to me more than life itself. I am as inclined, if not more, to convenience as any other to the using of cruise control. I always am needing reproval.

But, I don't know, again, (nor have discovered yet) that place where I have found, or presently am finding it more needful _than here_ (in this earth, on these forums, at work in Savannah, at home in Guyton, in my bed at _my house, _in my rare attendance at the _formal meeting_) that to mistake my reproval for a thing is therefore for general distribution. That thinking (for me) is the most needful of reproval.

If you can bear with me.

Elijah.

Bearing in his seeking of God being led _through_ and _to_ many things. _*Through* _to a glorious telling of the matter found in his encounter with the prophets of Baal. But no less _*to *_being found in a cave.

The one a magnificent display of boldness being answered by the power of God. Another, if one can bear it, no less an answer by the power of God.

We will hear/see from God if in the boldness of faith we speak. But, no less will God's chosen hear in withdrawal.

Who doesn't "get" Elijah? In boldness we may speak, but even after what may appear the quintessence of God's vindication, the most resounding "amen" from Heaven as we may have never experienced to that time...there remains a resistance discovered...and personally experienced.

And...we draw back to a cave. That place deep inside where the "real" dealings get done. The "real stuff" of us is made clear as we offer it...and God answers.

Sanctify the Lord in your heart. It is never an old instruction. Always set Him apart.

Does the preacher get preachy? Tedious? Can the indoctrinated (I find no offense in that) not cross over into a becoming doctrinaire? God knows.
Presumption is never clear (does a man become presumptuous, is a man presumptuous, in any statement he finds true?) What discerns between the spirit of faith given us by which we may speak, and indeed are encouraged to...and that crossing into presumption? To whom can we only look for answer? In whom might we only find that discerning? Can we avoid it...even in our cave?

Even if I or any man _prefer not to be preachy_, but _even here..._especially_ here in this earth_ I find my preferences before God...vain. The weakest thing beyond imagining.

Wow! Do you hear Paul? He was concerned about not running in vain.

Elijah is preaching to me (but is it to all?). Dare I say this for any...but me? Does anyone else "get" Elijah? How that in my cave when confronted with "what are you doing here?" my answer...must receive answer? Is God begrudging of rest? Or is it only _my tendency_ toward self pity..."I am the only one left..." Ha ha ha ha ha!

It's crazy, oh yes it is! If crazy is described as being all without reason. At least as man describes_ his reason_...and then describes _his crazy_! But God is not without His reason. His wisdom. We simply cannot reason (using man's reason and wisdom)...to it. It is not only set to frustration...but the _very perfection_ of it.

Look...the self evident can never bear explaining. (am I being presumptuous?)

It is self evident  (or correct me, for the love of God) that God deals with each of us so individually, so uniquely, so especially to the most minute of details _in everything...(are your hairs numbered, too?)..._that ONLY God can handle it. Only God can handle how such complete and uninterrupted attention to each one (what is of more value to Him than many sparrows...whose falling of each ONE is _never overlooked?_)
What can bear such attention to itself? And, if finding itself in such...who _but God_ can handle what is not an unheard consequence that _may rise in response? _How can this be avoided? Is it even made to be? Or, only made to be corrected? RE-thought in wholesome repentance? How can we avoid in such attentions_...feeling "we are the onliest [sic] one, the uniquest one"? Ha!_


_"_Come, let us reason together_"_

Is it all...ONLY...to that end?

"Come sit with me...and let's talk"? You present your reason, I present...mine.

I am not unlike Elijah. I don't know if anyone else is. I am not saying I am like him...only not unlike him.

"It was your attention toward me that got me to pay attention to you. I found out you knew me like no other, _really_ what was I to do once I saw that? Huh?  But in that bearing of your attention and responding, stuff happened. Stuff that got others so upset as I bore your attention upon me (like) as no other (for each man is unique to himself)...now they want to kill me...this "only one" you have left!"

Ha ha ha!

"Here" I hear..."here...let me show you someone. Yes, it's true...all my attention has been upon you. And yes, you have responded to all my attention. Now...do you see this One? Do you see His responses to all my attention upon Him? Do you care to be measured...or do you believe that His responses, His response to my attention is what saves you from that measurement? What will you have? I do not seek to shame you with your responses to my attention, and will not, but neither will I withhold from you that for which you ask. I do indeed love you that much. If you want measurement _against _Him, just know what you ask for"

yep, that's not the attention I could ever prefer, but it's all the attention _I need_.

Enough attention to provoke repentance. I need repentance. I cannot have zeal...without it. Life...without it. See Christ...without it.

Be zealous therefore...and repent.

We can see Jesus, or ourselves. And even much seeing of ourselves (when enough is allowed by that giver of attention) works perfectly!

We can be told where refusal to see nothing but ourselves will lead...but who could believe that? How could anyone believe that; seeing how much attention is lavished to them that they...are? They exist. They...(we, I)...have _been given_...BEING! I am-ness!

This will be useful only to fools. The difference between cats and dogs.

The dog says: "That person feeds me, gives me a place to stay, gives me a bed, pets me, kisses me, and provides for my every need, he must be God."

The cats says: "That person feeds me, gives me a place to stay, gives me a bed, pets me, kisses me, and provides for my every need, I must be God".



And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.


*Strong's #4352:* proskuneo (pronounced pros-koo-neh'-o)



from 4314 and a probable derivative of 2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master's hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):--worship.


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## Squadron77 (Jul 1, 2019)

*Hebrews 10:25 King James Version (KJV)*

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Also about the sabbath day.

Colossians 2 

*16*Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath _days_.


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## NCHillbilly (Jul 1, 2019)

If I want to commune with God, I think alone on a mountaintop or beside a creek somewhere as far away from other people as possible is the best place for that, myself; not sitting in a building full of people.


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## j_seph (Jul 1, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> No doubt the church is important, but the church in Scripture is the entire body of Jesus' disciples.  Most of the meetings I've seen of traditional American groups that call themselves "churches" are much different from groups of 1st century disciples.
> 
> Any gathering of believers is a meeting of the "church" even if not in the context of a traditional American group calling itself a church.
> 
> ...


So when there are a group getting together at someones house? Does a church not need a pastor? If a group of 5, 10, or 20 gather do they not need a pastor?
Is not a Pastor also considered an under Shepard, with Jesus being the chief Shepard? A flock without a Shepard will stray. All of us are not Pastors, preachers, nor teachers, but as saved children of God we are all reachers.

Jeremiah 3:15 - And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

Proverbs 27:23 - Be thou diligent to know the state of thy flocks, [and] look well to thy herds.

I do agree that the building is not the church, the church is those inside and that . I feel that if a group is getting together that is considered a devotion in which you can grow but to me there still needs to be a Pastor. We can grow stronger yet we need to be fed from the word of God by God himself.

Maybe I am different, strange or peculiar as the bible says. I can read, listen and learn from other people with other people in what I call a devotion. But it is different when a man of God stands up and preaches what he is given to preach. Now I am not talking about what some organization gives him to preach I am talking about that word that comes straight from the throne room.

To sit and hear an hour. two hour sermon that came straight from the man upstairs is amazing, and food for your soul. I cannot sit and watch or listen to someone who comes in with 3 or 4 sheets of paper where they have wrote it down a week, or two before. To me that gives man place to put in how and what he wants to say or do. Maybe even time to stand in front of a mirror and practice it. To see our pastor sitting on the front pew, with his bible lets say opened to Genesis, go to the pulpit with his bible opened to Genesis walk away, start preaching and go turn his bible lets say to Revelations and give an hour long sermon off of one verse after he came in with it on his heart that he was preaching from Genesis and that one person gets saved does something to ya. That is what I mean by straight from the throne room, there was no interference of man, and I feel that those words are straight from God as it wasn't planned, it just happened.

If you have a little group, and there is a pastor (a MAN called of God to preach and lead this group) then I can see a group gathered being a church.


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## j_seph (Jul 1, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> If I want to commune with God, I think alone on a mountaintop or beside a creek somewhere as far away from other people as possible is the best place for that, myself; not sitting in a building full of people.



I see this as 
Matthew 6: But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


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## Spineyman (Jul 1, 2019)

Squadron77 said:


> *Hebrews 10:25 King James Version (KJV)*
> 
> 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.



There are a lot of people who think this is optional. It is not. It is actually a command as well. Jesus said He was building His Church and the gates of **** shall not prevail.
Both Peter and Paul were working diligently to start new churches all over their respective areas they covered. I will tell you know there are no lone wolf Christians today. We are to be plugged in to a working, functioning Church.
As iron sharpens iron, so does one man another!


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 2, 2019)

This was your opening statement.



> My view is that while attendance in a Bible believing and teaching church is certainly wise and advisable, it does not seem to be required by Scripture.



I find it a little disjointed from this:



LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I'm just trying to be faithful to the beliefs espoused in the Baptist Faith and Message of the SBC.



Are you really trying to tell me that the SBC doesn't believe in Church attendance?  I'm Baptist and this is news to me. In fact, isn't it a little counter intuitive for any formal Church to not believe in church attendance?   Just asking?????

And then this:



LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I strive for Biblical Christianity over legalism



Go back and read your very first statement. 



> My view is that while attendance in a Bible believing and teaching church is certainly wise and advisable, it does not seem to be required by Scripture.



Not only are you wrong,You have totally lost the forrest for the trees.

You state  in no uncertain terms



LittleDrummerBoy said:


> "...attendance in a Bible believing and teaching church...does not seem to be required by Scripture."



Formal or informal,that was your opening premise.

Now whether you're advocating formal or informal Church, is that not legalism?
You're just like a lot of people in my Church, and probably many others.  You've missed the entire message of the Bible and get focused on "doing what's best".




LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Scripture is silent on whether the "meeting together" Christians are instructed to "not give up" needs to be formal or informal.



Again, wading in where the Bible is silent,splitting hairs: legalism to the Nth degree.




LittleDrummerBoy said:


> The purpose of this discussion



in addition to being misguided, is pointless.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 2, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Are you really trying to tell me that the SBC doesn't believe in Church attendance?  I'm Baptist and this is news to me.



The SBC is a large and diverse group of churches.  Among that many churches, many beliefs are present on most topics.  For the most part, the defining beliefs are summarized in the Baptist Faith and Message.  A belief that church attendance is a command of Scripture is not found in that document.



SemperFiDawg said:


> In fact, isn't it a little counter intuitive for any formal Church to not believe in church attendance?   Just asking?????



They believe it exists.  They believe it is beneficial.  But do they believe it is a command of Scripture?  If making disciples includes teaching obedience to all Jesus commanded, shouldn't we know whether a common belief and teaching is actually among the things Jesus commanded?



SemperFiDawg said:


> Again, wading in where the Bible is silent,splitting hairs: legalism to the Nth degree.



In Scripture, legalism is trying to apply an unBiblical yoke to Christians.  Unless Church attendance is commanded by Scripture, teaching that it is is legalism.



SemperFiDawg said:


> in addition to being misguided, is pointless.



And yet, several days and several posts after you suggested it is a waste of your time, you are still participating in the discussion.  Your integrity would be better suited if you would honor your own words, stop wasting my time and yours and avoid the discussion you think is misguided and pointless.

But I suspect the truth is you are convicted of your own error and legalism regarding church attendance, so rather than repent and obey the Scriptural command "do not go beyond what is written" you are claiming the high ground and blame shifting to others who have acknowledged the proper Biblical position.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 2, 2019)

More on whether the question is pointless or important and practical.

As I've said before, I have two sons attending college away from home most of the year.  When they are at home, they are required to attend our home church.  At college, they spent a number of weeks and considerable effort attending candidate churches on Sunday mornings without finding one acceptable within commuting distance.  Eventually, they found a combination of campus Bible studies and fellowships that they liked and that (after asking questions and looking into them), their mother and I found acceptable. 

Since regular church attendance is not a command of Scripture, I have approved the status quo and we're not leaning on them to keep looking for acceptable local churches near campus.  This situation is common for college students.  Are parents erring my allowing their college-age children to reckon the church their parents attend near home to remain their "home church" for the duration of their college and allowing their college age children to keep the Scriptural command of Hebrews 10:25 in campus Bible studies and fellowships rather than formal church attendance?  Or should parents insist that their college age children find and attend a formal church on Sunday mornings?

I have raised this exact question and gotten feedback from the elders of my local SBC church.  These elders who know my sons and my family have no problem with my sons considering my local church as their "home" church and complying with Hebrews 10:25 through campus fellowship meetings and Bible studies.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 2, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> The SBC is a large and diverse group of churches.  Among that many churches, many beliefs are present on most topics.  For the most part, the defining beliefs are summarized in the Baptist Faith and Message.  A belief that church attendance is a command of Scripture is not found in that document.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are correct in that I should take my own advice and quit wasting my time.  The problem is when I’m bored my time is worth very little.  It’s a personal fault.  I know.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 2, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Please quote the Scripture where Yahweh commanded attendance every Sabbath.  The commands regarding the Sabbath were about resting from work, not attending a meeting.  You are mistaken.


3 “‘There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work;wherever you live, it is a sabbath to the Lord.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 2, 2019)

Luke 4:16 - So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.

WDJD??  what did Jesus do?


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 2, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Luke 4:16 - So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read.
> 
> WDJD??  what did Jesus do?



Jesus was also circumcised and kept the dietary law.  Do you teach Christians to do these things also?


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 2, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Jesus was also circumcised and kept the dietary law.  Do you teach Christians to do these things also?



Jesus also didn't murder or commit adultery.  Do you require church members to not murder or sleep around on their spouse... 

Good grief man, you sure are grasping at straws trying not to drown here, aren't you?  You asked for the law that required attendance at temple, and I gave that to you, and then, just so you could see that Jesus followed that law, I gave you scripture that showed He regularly attended temple.

You take it and do what you want with it.  It is obvious that you are justifying your preferences by how you feel.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 2, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Jesus also didn't murder or commit adultery.  Do you require church members to not murder or sleep around on their spouse...
> 
> Good grief man, you sure are grasping at straws trying not to drown here, aren't you?  You asked for the law that required attendance at temple, and I gave that to you, and then, just so you could see that Jesus followed that law, I gave you scripture that showed He regularly attended temple.
> 
> You take it and do what you want with it.  It is obvious that you are justifying your preferences by how you feel.



Not at all.  My preference is to attend church.  I feel church attendance is better, and I have written much above to that effect.  However, I am unwilling to impose my preferences on other Christians without Scriptural support.

Suppose I accept your premise that Christians should follow Christ's example of attending synagogue.  Why then is modern church attendance the only valid way to follow that example?

Why is attending a campus fellowship not a valid way to follow Christ's example?

Why is attending a meeting of Messianic Jews on Shabbat not a valid way to follow Christ's example?  At least they meet on the same day of the week.

Why is attending a synagogue of (non-Messianic) Jews not a valid way to follow Christ's example?

Why does it have to be a traditional church meeting?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 3, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> However, I am unwilling to impose my preferences on other Christians without Scriptural support.
> ?



Guess you could say I'm bored again, but this quote begs the question, So you're willing to "IMPOSE YOUR PREFERENCES"  on other Christians as long as you have Scriptural support???????????   That's truly disturbing.   (I guess I shouldn't be surprised after you stated that you required your adult children to attend your church when they come to visit.)  Honestly, the more you post, the more detached from reality,.... any reality, you sound.  I shutter to think that you are in a leadership/teaching position in your Church as you say.  I pray, it's not mine.  Please tell me you don't live in Laurens County.


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## j_seph (Jul 3, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> More on whether the question is pointless or important and practical.
> 
> As I've said before, I have two sons attending college away from home most of the year.  When they are at home, they are required to attend our home church.  At college, they spent a number of weeks and considerable effort attending candidate churches on Sunday mornings without finding one acceptable within commuting distance.  Eventually, they found a combination of campus Bible studies and fellowships that they liked and that (after asking questions and looking into them), their mother and I found acceptable.
> 
> ...


So would this group be a group without out a pastor? Would this be a group of sheep wondering around in the field, all with the same desire? All seeking the Chief Shepard but not having an under Shepard to guide them there? I know a group of college aged kids that get together every Friday and every Saturday for "Devotion and Bible study" However they also go to church every Wed and Sundays. At one point the same group had been going to revivals for like 8 weeks straight.



We all need Christ, His Word, His Spirit, and, not least of all, His bride. You can’t have a foundation without a house. You can’t have a head without a body. And you can’t have a groom without a bride. The New Testament knows nothing of unchurched Christianity. There is no Christianity without Christ and no Christ without His church. We need the individuals of the church and the institution of the church. We need the church as organism and organization. We need to be the church, and yes, we also need to go to church. Christ loves His bride, and so must we. Not in theory or from a distance, but in person, in the flesh, every week, for our good, and for God’s glory.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 3, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> More on whether the question is pointless or important and practical.
> 
> As I've said before, I have two sons attending college away from home most of the year.  When they are at home, they are required to attend our home church.  At college, they spent a number of weeks and considerable effort attending candidate churches on Sunday mornings without finding one acceptable within commuting distance.  Eventually, they found a combination of campus Bible studies and fellowships that they liked and that (after asking questions and looking into them), their mother and I found acceptable.
> 
> Since regular church attendance is not a command of Scripture, I have approved the status quo and we're not leaning on them to keep looking for acceptable local churches near campus.



THIS is so sad and scary on a number of fronts.  Has it ever occurred to you that it's not only possible but normal for adults and children alike to attend church simply out of their love and adoration for God and their fellow brothers and sisters, and not compunction.  I don't know what's worse, that you are terribly misled about salvation, or that you have misled your children.



LittleDrummerBoy said:


> This situation is common for college students.



NO.
IT'S.
NOT.




LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Are parents erring my allowing their college-age children to reckon the church their parents attend near home to remain their "home church" for the duration of their college and allowing their college age children to keep the Scriptural command of Hebrews 10:25 in campus Bible studies and fellowships rather than formal church attendance?
> 
> Or should parents insist that their college age children find and attend a formal church on Sunday mornings?
> 
> I have raised this exact question and gotten feedback from the elders of my local SBC church.  These elders who know my sons and my family have no problem with my sons considering my local church as their "home" church and complying with Hebrews 10:25 through campus fellowship meetings and Bible studies.



And why bother asking questions here when it's blatantly obvious that you have ABSOLUTELY NO INTENTION of hearing the answers, and in fact, have already asserted your "requirements"? Really, what's the point....self-seeking recognition, validation?????

You stated no scripture directs us to attend formal Church and made it clear that it must be scriptural.  One was provided, and another that Christ followed it.  You essentially ignored it along with YOUR criteria, seeking validation of your original premise.  What exactly do you want here, if it's not validation of YOUR, (read Y O U R) decision?


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 3, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Guess you could say I'm bored again, but this quote begs the question, So you're willing to "IMPOSE YOUR PREFERENCES"  on other Christians as long as you have Scriptural support???????????   That's truly disturbing.   (I guess I shouldn't be surprised after you stated that you required your adult children to attend your church when they come to visit.)



My sons are 18 and 19.  My view has always been that as long as children are financially dependent on their parents and living at home, they are subject to household rules.  And one of the rules in my household is weekly church attendance.  Now you may think its OK for parents to allow children to live as they please once they turn 18, but I don't see any Biblical support for that.  Would you allow children living at home to be idolaters, sexually immoral, drunkards, or drug addicts?  My house, my rules.  

When Paul gives the requirements for elders, he writes:
_He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) _

Do you think this verse no longer applies once a child turns 18?  What is your basis for this belief?

Also, as a leader in my church, I also have a duty to teach the Scriptural instructions and offer accountability for Scriptural commands to other believers.  In contrast, I work hard to avoid confusing my own preferences with actual commands of Scripture.



j_seph said:


> So would this group be a group without out a pastor? Would this be a group of sheep wondering around in the field, all with the same desire? All seeking the Chief Shepard but not having an under Shepard to guide them there? I know a group of college aged kids that get together every Friday and every Saturday for "Devotion and Bible study" However they also go to church every Wed and Sundays. At one point the same group had been going to revivals for like 8 weeks straight.
> 
> We all need Christ, His Word, His Spirit, and, not least of all, His bride. You can’t have a foundation without a house. You can’t have a head without a body. And you can’t have a groom without a bride. The New Testament knows nothing of unchurched Christianity. There is no Christianity without Christ and no Christ without His church. We need the individuals of the church and the institution of the church. We need the church as organism and organization. We need to be the church, and yes, we also need to go to church. Christ loves His bride, and so must we. Not in theory or from a distance, but in person, in the flesh, every week, for our good, and for God’s glory.



Thanks for articulating your view clearly.  Yes, the campus fellowship my sons attend guided by an appropriately credentialed campus minister.  But I guess an interesting question is what are the appropriate qualifications for a shepherd of a group meeting to substitute for regular church attendance?  In this case, the gentleman is ordained by a church and has a seminary degree.  But what of the Messianic group our family and I attended for a couple years a while ago.  The Rabbi knew Scripture well and was functioning in the role of shepherd.  But I never really dug into his training or ordination.  What would you say are the key qualifications for the shepherd role?


----------



## j_seph (Jul 3, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> My sons are 18 and 19.  My view has always been that as long as children are financially dependent on their parents and living at home, they are subject to household rules.  And one of the rules in my household is weekly church attendance.  Now you may think its OK for parents to allow children to live as they please once they turn 18, but I don't see any Biblical support for that.  Would you allow children living at home to be idolaters, sexually immoral, drunkards, or drug addicts?  My house, my rules.
> 
> When Paul gives the requirements for elders, he writes:
> _He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) _
> ...


For starters I really do not agree that because someone has a seminary degree, or college education in religion makes them a Shepard or pastor or preacher. We all have callings, whether to preach, pray, sing, teach. Anyone can go to college and go through the classes, be smart, become ordained and get them a job somewhere as a minister, pastor. Example of the pastors I know including the preachers I know and there are several easily over 50 of them. None of them went and got a college degree or classes in religion. What is preached is what God gives them at that time. It is what God teaches them not of man because he is educated and book smart. I have heard messages that lasted 2 minutes and you could witness with them the holy spirit, I have heard messages that lasted almost 2 hours and the spirit bared witness. I have also heard great lessons that were wrote down by man, I said lessons cause thats what they were. There was no spirit to it. Of those 50 or so I have seen a majority of them be in tears of joy as well as tears of burdened down over a lost soul that was in the congregation. I have seen those hit an alter (yes we still have alters) that were broken by Gods word come up from that alter a new person, unbroken and saved alike. I am not sure what denomination you are and that is not important to me as long as you are saved and born again sir. I do invite you to come visit us one Sunday and feel why I believe one must go to church.
I am sending you a PM shortly


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 3, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> THIS is so sad and scary on a number of fronts.  Has it ever occurred to you that it's not only possible but normal for adults and children alike to attend church simply out of their love and adoration for God and their fellow brothers and sisters, and not compunction.  I don't know what's worse, that you are terribly misled about salvation, or that you have misled your children.



Wow!  Now you seem to be bearing false witness.  How have I misled my children about salvation?  Nowhere have I stated that I believe or teach that church attendance is a requirement for salvation.  It is a household rule, sure.  But most Christian households have rules that are not represented as requirements for salvation.  Has every household with rules misrepresented salvation to their children?



SemperFiDawg said:


> You stated no scripture directs us to attend formal Church and made it clear that it must be scriptural.  One was provided, and another that Christ followed it.



Please refresh my memory.  The only Scriptures provided had to do with "meeting together" without anything in the text supporting the assertion that a formal church was the only way to satisfy the instruction.  The verse about Christ referenced his custom in attending synagogue on the Sabbath.  In response I asked several questions which have not yet been answered:

Suppose I accept your premise that Christians should follow Christ's example of attending synagogue. Why then is modern church attendance the only valid way to follow that example?

Why is attending a campus fellowship not a valid way to follow Christ's example?

Why is attending a meeting of Messianic Jews on Shabbat not a valid way to follow Christ's example? At least they meet on the same day of the week.

Why is attending a synagogue of (non-Messianic) Jews not a valid way to follow Christ's example?

Why does it have to be a traditional church meeting?

You seem to object to a mature believer holding a leadership position in his family (father and head of household) and his church (teacher, preacher, worship leader) actually teaching Christ's commands as requirements for obedience.  However, you have no problem as an anonymous internet poster asserting that I am failing to be obedient to Scripture because I have not yet accepted your unproven view of traditional church attendance being a command of Scripture that cannot be satisfied with other meetings.

Please offer your proof succinctly.  Quote the Scripture and provide your reasoning why the scripture is indeed a command, and why obedience to the command cannot be satisfied by anything other than weekly attendance in a traditional church.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 3, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> My sons are 18 and 19.  My view has always been that as long as children are financially dependent on their parents and living at home, they are subject to household rules.  And one of the rules in my household is weekly church attendance.  Now you may think its OK for parents to allow children to live as they please once they turn 18, but I don't see any Biblical support for that.  Would you allow children living at home to be idolaters, sexually immoral, drunkards, or drug addicts?  My house, my rules.



My sons that are grown started attending Pentecostal churches as teens.  They were raised in a Baptist Church up until then.  No big deal.  Know why?  Because they understood that their relationship with God was based solely on their love of God and his love of them.  If you truly GET that, and it's obvious you don't, you would see how pointless your premises and controlling behavior are, and maybe, just maybe wonder what you missed.  Right now you're lost and IMHO have absolutely no business teaching anyone anything.  There's a very real danger your good intentions are gonna get people front row seats in Hades.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 3, 2019)

I was made to go to Church until I left home. I guess it was a controlling behavior but none the less, it was Dad's house and his rules. We also were not allowed to smoke or curse at home or have girls in our bedrooms.
I can't say that it helped us or hurt us in the growing up department. I don't believe he saw it as a requirement for salvation, or God, but just his requirements.

I also can't see how anything a man says from the pulpit could get anyone in the pews in Hades.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 3, 2019)

I can see that perhaps if someone isn't worshiping God out of love at a certain age, that no amount of force will do much of anything. You can't make an 18 year old obedient. You can't even give him salvation.

I'm not sure though what the magic age is where you tell your kids they no longer have to attend Church. Suppose they aren't really into the whole religious concept as presented by you or your Church, do they still have to abide by your rules at your house?

I mean if they say, OK Dad, I'm no longer a works based Christian like you taught so my actions around the house will be different from now on.

I don't see either way as being really that cut and dry. It would depend on the children and exactly how far they had ventured from my teachings and our Churches indoctrination.

                                                                                                             Love is love but then so is discipline. Maybe we all need both for obedience.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 4, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> My sons that are grown started attending Pentecostal churches as teens.  They were raised in a Baptist Church up until then.  No big deal.  Know why?  Because they understood that their relationship with God was based solely on their love of God and his love of them.  If you truly GET that, and it's obvious you don't, you would see how pointless your premises and controlling behavior are, and maybe, just maybe wonder what you missed.  Right now you're lost and IMHO have absolutely no business teaching anyone anything.  There's a very real danger your good intentions are gonna get people front row seats in Hades.



My sons understand they are free to attend a different church from their mother and I if they were to choose to do so.  We've talked about it.  We would have no objection if they wanted to attend a Pentacostal church, for example.  But they seem content continuing to attend the same home church as their mother and I.

Our parenting approach has been toward increasing independence beginning at age 12.  However, unlike many parents these days, we don't think it is wise to completely release children from all accountability and expectations at age 18 if the children are still under our roof and still financially dependent on the parents.  You're the first person of faith to suggest that the few remaining household rules we have (no drinking, no drugs, no porn, no opposite sex sleepovers, no idols, regular church attendance) constitute "controlling behavior."  We've seen the outcomes of parents who continue to support adult children into their mid to late 20s without any modicum of household rules, and that fruit is rotten.  People of faith who actually know our sons and adult daughter often express appreciation for their faith and character and praise our parenting approach and outcomes.  

But I do notice your post maintains a personal attack on me as a father while neglecting to address my direct questions on the main topic of the original post.  Reminds me of the saying "If you have the facts, argue the facts.  If you lack the facts, argue the law.  If you lack the law, attack their character."  

Please refresh my memory. The only Scriptures provided had to do with "meeting together" without anything in the text supporting the assertion that a formal church was the only way to satisfy the instruction. The verse about Christ referenced his custom in attending synagogue on the Sabbath. In response I asked several questions which have not yet been answered:

Suppose I accept your premise that Christians should follow Christ's example of attending synagogue. Why then is modern church attendance the only valid way to follow that example?

Why is attending a campus fellowship not a valid way to follow Christ's example?

Why is attending a meeting of Messianic Jews on Shabbat not a valid way to follow Christ's example? At least they meet on the same day of the week.

Why is attending a synagogue of (non-Messianic) Jews not a valid way to follow Christ's example?

Why does it have to be a traditional church meeting?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 4, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Suppose I accept your premise that Christians should follow Christ's example of ________



Tell me.  Isn't this the same question, just rephrased to a different topic, that the serpent asked Eve. "Did God really say......?"

If you can't see that, then tell me what other subject you would feel comfortable replacing the blank with when teaching your sons or your students?  Now tell me why your subject is an exception.

However, again, it still misses the point.  My point is that IF one really understands God's love for them and has a true love of God (out of God's love for them), then it's a moot point because, they are gonna want to be at a formal Church.  They are gonna want to attend informal Bible studies.  They are gonna strive to give MORE than 10%.  They are never gonna get enough God, never help enough people, never forgive enough, never pray enough, never worship enough.  By doing so they will exceed any Law, doctrine, or command, because they are the LIVING embodiment of Christ: not his examples or his commands mind you, but HIS HEART.  They have found the pearl, sold everything, and are following him to the utmost of their ability.  They are living the Sermon on the Mount, knowing that out of his love for them, his grace and mercy covers their shortcomings.  For them His Kingdom HAS come and what a glorious Kingdom it is.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 4, 2019)

I think that people should follow Christ's example of grace through "love" more so than anything else. This to mean Church attendance or law keeping.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 5, 2019)

WWJD?

Jesus said his yoke is easy and his burden is light. 

For example, while Jesus was willing to bear the yoke of the law of Moses, he was not willing to insist that all of his followers be under the law of Moses. 

I often ask whether my expectations for other believers could be characterized as an "easy yoke" and "light burden." 

Or have I become a Pharisaical bully better characterized by Jesus' words, "They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them."

When in doubt, I remember that my goal is carrying out the Great Commission and teaching Christ's commands.  If an instruction is clearly a command of Christ, then it falls under his "easy yoke" and "light burden."  But if I have added human wisdom, man's tradition, or other ideas, I run a risk of applying a yoke that is heavier and more burdensome that what Christ would have a believer follow.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 5, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> WWJD?
> 
> Jesus said his yoke is easy and his burden is light.
> 
> ...



You did not answer my question, and I think it speaks to the very heart of the matter.

You should not TEACH Christ's commands if you don't understand the underpinning behind them or their purpose.  To do so is akin to captaining a ship not knowing from where you set sail, where you are, or where you're going.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 5, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You did not answer my question, and I think it speaks to the very heart of the matter.



I will answer your question when you answer mine that you have been ignoring.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 5, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> I will answer your question when you answer mine that you have been ignoring.



Which one?


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## Israel (Jul 5, 2019)

It's great when we meet together like this...each has psalm, a hymn, a revelation...


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## 4HAND (Jul 5, 2019)

Just curious, where/how do Christians who don't attend church pay their tithes?


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 5, 2019)

4HAND said:


> Just curious, where/how do Christians who don't attend church pay their tithes?



oh, quit being so legalistic... Jesus did command us to pay tithes. <sarc>


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## 4HAND (Jul 5, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> oh, quit being so legalistic... Jesus did command us to pay tithes. <sarc>


?


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## Israel (Jul 5, 2019)

4HAND said:


> Just curious, where/how do Christians who don't attend church pay their tithes?


 
I'm not sure a christian would tell you where (or how much) they give anymore than he would boast of his liberty to enjoy ribs or shrimp.


After all, if his own right hand does not know what his left is doing in these matters...how could he know to tell anyone else?

It seems in all we may neglect the possibility (could it be possible?) that merely "coming together" may not be always the Lord's gathering _in spirit?_

Paul said something. Was it necessary? If he said it and it therefore was necessary...should we spare ourselves the asking "why"...to whom...for what?
Where could it apply? Where does it? And _why?_

_Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. _

I can only think that what has convinced itself it is always coming together for the better simply _because it comes together_ must be what is being addressed.

It couldn't be to those whose sole reliance was upon the Lord's sole approval, not taking anything to themselves by their practice...but seeing it always as gift of grace.


Like Peter's boasting and denials, those poor Corinthians have suffered being the poorest example (or best, depending) of such a messed up congregation of folks that ever lent themselves to a sermon.


Ummm. maybe not?


Is there an obedience of faith, does this mean it does not exist, cannot be...practiced?

I tend to think there's a lot more to be understood about that right hand/left hand thing in anything we may think we "do for the Lord".


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 7, 2019)

One thing I have noticed is that churches that tend to view regular church as a Christian "duty" tend to be stuck in dated traditions that yield experiences less likely to meet the real spiritual needs of attendees.  They also tend to think lack of attendance is more likely due to flaws in the character of the flock rather than flaws in the ministry offered in church.  My view is that churches would do better to question whether the ministry they provide is meeting the real spiritual needs of the sheep.

Some observations:
1.  Members of the flock under 50 or so are not going to be as responsive to music that is over 100 years old.
2.  Once people are born again, they don't benefit from the vast majority of sermon time being focused on trying to get people to pray the sinner's prayer.
3.  As believers mature in the Lord, they benefit less from sermons that rarely go beyond "Christianity 101".
4.  Large segments of 21st Century Christianity tend to focus sermons on "what to believe" rather than "how to behave (or how to obey)."
5.  When sermons do focus on behavior (or obedience) they tend to be overly focused on how to contribute to church ministries rather than other areas of obedience.  This emphasis seems self-serving.
6.  I've known a number of preachers now where there are rapidly diminishing returns for the flock after hearing 50 or so sermons.  Regardless of the texts they choose, their interpretations and illustrations rarely bring forth new information for the hearer.  Some are even preaching the same sermons again every 50-100 sermons.
7.  Unbiblical judgement and gossip are rampant.  Smoking, drinking, tattoos, clothing, child raising, church attendance, giving, volunteering, and other things often come under a microscope.
8.  Hypocrisy is rampant.  Many churches are quick to judge some behaviors (drinking, homosexuality), but you'll never hear a sermon on others (divorce, gluttony), because preaching on divorce and gluttony would actually address sins present in an important part of the congregation.
9.  Rather than "feed the sheep  and "prepare God's people for works of service"Churches attempt to exercise directive authority (boss people around) beyond the Biblical sphere of church authority in people's lives.

Those in leadership at a church would do well to review the above list and as themselves what things their church can do better to meet the needs of the flock and stop driving people away.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 7, 2019)

4HAND said:


> Just curious, where/how do Christians who don't attend church pay their tithes?


I don't. Once the tithes were paid in full, no more were required.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 7, 2019)

gemcgrew said:


> I don't. Once the tithes were paid in full, no more were required.



care to explain this thought further


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 7, 2019)

4HAND said:


> Just curious, where/how do Christians who don't attend church pay their tithes?



Is there a chapter and verse directing Christians to pay tithes to a local church they personally attend?  I know of one Christian who pays their tithes to Samaritan's Purse.  Others pay tithes to churches they formerly attended.  Others tithe in support of other Christian ministries such as Family Talk with Dr. James Dobson.  Others use their tithes in direct support of missionaries or missionary agencies.  Once when we were between churches, my wife and I tithed to a Messianic Jewish group.  We usually just keep tithing to our former church until we find a longer term newer one, but in cases where we leave for poor pastoral conduct (tolerating adultery), we stop tithing immediately.


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## Spineyman (Jul 7, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> One thing I have noticed is that churches that tend to view regular church as a Christian "duty" tend to be stuck in dated traditions that yield experiences less likely to meet the real spiritual needs of attendees.  They also tend to think lack of attendance is more likely due to flaws in the character of the flock rather than flaws in the ministry offered in church.  My view is that churches would do better to question whether the ministry they provide is meeting the real spiritual needs of the sheep.


If anyone is attending worship for the purpose of spiritual boo boo healing then they are going for the wrong reason, period. We go ( command ) because the Lord of all Creation bids us come. He calls all of us to " come and dine". It is not optional it is ordered by Christ. He is building His Church and the gates of **** shall not prevail against it.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 8, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> If anyone is attending worship for the purpose of spiritual boo boo healing then they are going for the wrong reason, period. We go ( command ) because the Lord of all Creation bids us come. He calls all of us to " come and dine". It is not optional it is ordered by Christ. He is building His Church and the gates of **** shall not prevail against it.


But by the same token, one should feel the Spirit or find another Church.


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## Israel (Jul 8, 2019)

If there is no joy [in], is there righteousness [in]?

Paul said:

“Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.”


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 9, 2019)

gemcgrew said:


> I don't. Once the tithes were paid in full, no more were required.



Now that's a new one on me unless it's meant allegorically.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 9, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Is there a chapter and verse directing Christians to pay tithes to a local church they personally attend....



smh.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 9, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> If anyone is attending worship for the purpose of spiritual boo boo healing then they are going for the wrong reason, period.



Agree completely.




> We go ( command ) because the Lord of all Creation bids us come. He calls all of us to " come and dine". It is not optional it is ordered by Christ. He is building His Church and the gates of **** shall not prevail against it.



Disagree to a large degree.  If we go, it SHOULD be out of a love of God and a love of our Brothers and Sisters........an actual DESIRE to worship God in a communal way, witness and hear others witness, and learn about God through instruction.  I think anyone going out of a sense of duty or compunction is missing the spirit of meeting entirely.


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## Madman (Jul 10, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> My view is that while attendance in a Bible believing and teaching church is certainly wise and advisable, it does not seem to be required by Scripture.
> 
> The oft cited "Do not give up meeting together" (Heb 10:25) can be satisfied with gatherings with other Christians in other venues that may not be traditional American churches.  Some examples might be home gatherings, fellowship over meals, and other places where Christians might meet together, study the Bible, worship, pray, and consider how to fulfill the great commission.
> 
> ...


Why would a member of the "family of God" not want to meet with "the family of God" for worship?  The church has been God's vehicle to bestow his graces on his people since it's beginning.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 10, 2019)

Madman said:


> Why would a member of the "family of God" not want to meet with "the family of God" for worship?  The church has been God's vehicle to bestow his graces on his people since it's beginning.



The question is why those meetings with the family of God for worship really need to be in formal church meetings rather than other venues.  The "church" is the entire family of God, regardless of whether the meeting is in a formal or informal venue.


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## Madman (Jul 10, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> The question is why those meetings with the family of God for worship really need to be in formal church meetings rather than other venues.  The "church" is the entire family of God, regardless of whether the meeting is in a formal or informal venue.



I have no other place to receive the sacraments than in church.  Why would one not desire to attend in the "regular" meeting place of their church?


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 10, 2019)

Madman said:


> I have no other place to receive the sacraments than in church.  Why would one not desire to attend in the "regular" meeting place of their church?



I've come across various issues over the past three decades.  Sometimes, it's not a matter of desire, but rather practicality.  How many hours should one walk to get to a formal church gathering, when their is an informal gathering a few minutes away?  What does one do when one is "between" churches?  What about those who find adequate regular fellowship in groups that offer worship, sacraments, and teaching outside of formal churches - for example Messianic congregations that often have informal structures?  Jumping in this late in the thread, most of these questions have be addressed in more detail in previous posts.


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## Madman (Jul 10, 2019)

LDB,

It is evident you and I come from different traditions.  The Messianic Jewish tradition, while arguably christian, are another topic.

Without the church, to whom do I appeal? Who is the arbiter? Matt. 18:15-18 The Church is the body to whom I may appeal.

The leaders of the first "Church" were given authority and responsibility.  John 21:15-17  Would we deny them their job?

Without a priest, there can be no Mass (meal), without the meal, the christian has no sustenance.  John 6:53-59

Both of my sons went away to college and found traditions like they grew up in, even though one of them had to travel almost an hour.

Perhaps you don't need to attend, but I do.

God's peace.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 10, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> How many hours should one walk to get to a formal church gathering,


Probably as many as they walk on Saturday night to their favorite dining place to eat a steak.

get real man... ain't nobody walking miles for anything in the US, unless they are training for the Peachtree 10k


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## Madman (Jul 11, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> The question is why those meetings with the family of God for worship really need to be in formal church meetings rather than other venues.  The "church" is the entire family of God, regardless of whether the meeting is in a formal or informal venue.


The church is more than just the people, it is everything that Christ put in place.  There is a form and a hierarchy too. That is not available in the home church.


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## j_seph (Jul 11, 2019)




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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 11, 2019)

j_seph said:


>



Why should the average Christian find their way back to church if so many churches offer so little in terms of feeding and shepherding the sheep?

Churches should figure out what we need to do differently to meet the real needs of the sheep. Being in church is often not only a waste of time, it is a negative experience, because Scriptural teaching is replaced by the traditions of man, and dead religion replaces real relationship with God the Father through Jesus Christ.

Churches have the greater burden to offer worthwhile Biblical teaching, preaching, and worship than the sheep have to keep showing up when Churches are failing in their job.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 11, 2019)

NE GA Pappy said:


> .....get real man...



Ain’t happening Pappy.  Just ain’t.


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## j_seph (Jul 11, 2019)

> Why should the average Christian find their way back to church if so many churches offer so little in terms of feeding and shepherding the sheep?


 Then you find a church that feeds its flock.



> Churches should figure out what we need to do differently to meet the real needs of the sheep. Being in church is often not only a waste of time, it is a negative experience, because Scriptural teaching is replaced by the traditions of man, and dead religion replaces real relationship with God the Father through Jesus Christ


Only thing the church needs to figure out is to follow and obey God. If your in a church that feels like a waste of time, a negative experience, that has traditions of man then maybe it is time to leave and find a church where God is invited to the services. Our little church, I can only tell you what time service starts. There are no clocks on the wall. Last night for example, we started at 7 as usual, we did not get done until 9:45. How many average Christians would have already gotten up and left by 8:30?



> Churches have the greater burden to offer worthwhile Biblical teaching, preaching, and worship than the sheep have to keep showing up when Churches are failing in their job.


See first reply. First burden of a church should be leading the lost to Christ. Then IMO it is making sure each of its members are in Gods Will. That is going to come by Gods word, not mans word. If man is putting his word in it then it is not of God and will not find that lodging place in your heart. Read 1 John 4:15 *Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.* 

Can you stand up in your church and give your testimony still? If so how often does that happen? We had a service a few weeks ago, the spirit was moving during the singing and it broke loose throughout the congregation. Pastor never got to preach as the preaching that morning came from testimonies from 35 to 40 people. 

Heard about a Baptist church the other day that found out their Pastor was getting his sermons from an online provider. That is not of God IMO. That is man reading and picking and choosing cause he does not know who or what is needed at the next service. Only God knows that.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 11, 2019)

j_seph said:


> Then you find a church that feeds its flock.



That's easy to say, and it is not an unreasonable expectation for a mature believer with easy access to reliable transportation.  But such admonishments fail to address immature believers and folks with transportation challenges.  

Consider immature believers.  How do they recognize a church that is feeding its flock from churches operated based more on tradition and ulterior motives?  And even churches that are feeding their flocks to some degree are bound up in legalistic traditions like requiring abstinence from alcohol for church membership.

I read a great article recently on "Why Christian Parents are Losing Trust in the Church."  If you think your church is great for you, fine.  But how does it stack up regarding the concerns of this article:

Quoted from here:
Churches often lament the lack of church attendance from teens and college students, often pointing the finger at parents for failing to properly train their children to show up and dutifully warm the seats.

Some things are seldom discussed:

1. In the last few years, some churches are becoming more like an arm of the government: supporting public schools and opposing home schooling, supporting government overreaches like mandatory vaccinations, backing away from persecuted members, failing to be a prophetic voice exposing sin in government officials, etc.  Is Jesus really saying that the United States is the greatest nation on earth?

Is the point of Romans 13 really that government need not be limited by their own laws (like the Constitution) or that a government “of the people, by the people, for the people” should not be accountable to those same people?  If good Christians live up to their contracts and covenants, why don’t good governments have to live up to the 1st and 2nd amendments?   Churches that imply that Romans 13 means Christians should tolerate government violations of the Constitution are implicitly teaching our daughters that Ephesians 5:22 means that wives should tolerate their husbands’ marital infidelity.

2. Rather than supporting parental authority, some churches undermine parental authority by taking neutral positions on whether teens really need to obey their parents. Even if the official position remains consistent with Scripture, the practical application often gives teens permission to disobey, and leaders often enable and hide destructive and disobedient behaviors of teens. Should teens really find sympathy in church leaders regarding whether parental boundaries are reasonable or whether consequences for misbehavior are appropriate?

3. Churches have swung toward supporting politically correct positions rather than simply correct Biblical positions: Global warming and low wages are not worse than adultery and stealing. Sex trafficking is not worse than abortion. Body shaming is not worse than drug abuse.  The Ten Commandments was given to all mankind as a summary of God’s eternal moral law for mankind.  Avoiding them in favor of more modern interpretations about right and wrong undermines parental efforts toward more Biblical discipleship.

Parents concerned with the sanctity of marriage are turned off by church tributes to the serial adulterer fraud of a Christian preacher (MLK).  Thou shall not celebrate adulterers if you want to be trusted with children of parents who appreciate the Ten Commandments. He may have been a great man, but churches are undermining the voice of parents regarding sexual purity, the importance of waiting until marriage, and the absolute unacceptability of adultery.  If MLK can be praised and celebrated and hailed as a Christian hero in spite of his unrepentant adultery, then how can we expect teens not to rationalize that giving into similar temptations is not so bad?  If a preacher (MLK) can break his sacred marriage vows and be a great man, can the preachers at your church break theirs also?

4. Many churches are compromised on the belief in a Biblical six day creation, absence of death before the fall, and formation of Adam from clay and Eve from Adam, “from the beginning of creation.”  Compromised creation doctrines open the door to acceptance of adulterous remarriages, broad acceptance of fornication, and tolerance of Sodomite marriage.  Some churches further call into question whether **** is real and whether it is eternal.  Should any parent be eager for their church to undermine such essential elements of Biblical revelation and the preaching of the gospel?

Parents should obey the Scripture, “Do not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing.” But rather than wholeheartedly trust the church as a source of sound teaching, good example, and Christian practice, many parents regretfully have to teach their children that “Jesus would not entrust himself to any man, because he knew what was in a man.”

Absence from church activities may often be a failure of parents, but it is more often a failure of the church to win the trust of parents.


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## j_seph (Jul 11, 2019)

> 1. In the last few years, some churches are becoming more like an arm of the government: supporting public schools and opposing home schooling, supporting government overreaches like mandatory vaccinations, backing away from persecuted members, failing to be a prophetic voice exposing sin in government officials, etc.  Is Jesus really saying that the United States is the greatest nation on earth?


Not sure what they mean by the schools and gov't. We have public school and home schooled kids at our church. Government gets mentioned when they are doing wrong and when they are doing right and get prayed for accordingly.



> 2. Rather than supporting parental authority, some churches undermine parental authority by taking neutral positions on whether teens really need to obey their parents. Even if the official position remains consistent with Scripture, the practical application often gives teens permission to disobey, and leaders often enable and hide destructive and disobedient behaviors of teens. Should teens really find sympathy in church leaders regarding whether parental boundaries are reasonable or whether consequences for misbehavior are appropriate?



The scripture about spare not the rod has been preached on several times. We have even been told that we see a child, teen, or even an adult not being reverent in the house of God it is our duty to bring it to their attention and correct them. We have had teens get on their phones and be called out to put their phones down during service.



> 3. Churches have swung toward supporting politically correct positions rather than simply correct Biblical positions: Global warming and low wages are not worse than adultery and stealing. Sex trafficking is not worse than abortion. Body shaming is not worse than drug abuse.  The Ten Commandments was given to all mankind as a summary of God’s eternal moral law for mankind.  Avoiding them in favor of more modern interpretations about right and wrong undermines parental efforts toward more Biblical discipleship.


We are far from politically correct and am sure that a millennial church goer would probably get offended by some things preached at our church because it comes from Gods word and is truth which has been cut out of some churches.



> Absence from church activities may often be a failure of parents, but it is more often a failure of the church to win the trust of parents.


Most kids today do not have a drug problem being drug to church. Many parents find that their kids ball practice and games are more important than their kid learning Gods word and the own kids salvation. I have a stepson who is 18, raised in church until his dad divorced my wife and led him astray. In turn his dad had quit church and led his son down the same path he was on. My wife has been kept awake at night praying for his salvation, while another parent is worried about their kids ball game. We as the adults have failed today's youth as we have gotten slack. We have tried appeasing everyone's wants and desires for a church and lost sight of the one we need to be appeasing and that is Jesus Christ. We are not a perfect church and not saying that at all. However we also do our best not to conform to the world. HE11 is hot, it is as eternal as Heaven is. There is only one way to reach the later and that requires the blood of Christ. Man cannot give it to you, he can only guide you that way through the holy spirits teaching. All of the light shows, bands and instruments, activities in a church will not get anyone saved without the holy spirit being in it and it being of God not man.


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## Madman (Jul 11, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> That's easy to say, and it is not an unreasonable expectation for a mature believer with easy access to reliable transportation.  But such admonishments fail to address immature believers and folks with transportation challenges.


We have members who live near some colleges who stop by and pick-up the students on the way to church.



LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Consider immature believers.  How do they recognize a church that is feeding its flock from churches operated based more on tradition and ulterior motives?


  What ulterior motive?  our only motive is their eternity.



LittleDrummerBoy said:


> And even churches that are feeding their flocks to some degree are bound up in legalistic traditions like requiring abstinence from alcohol for church membership.


Not ours. Holy Communion uses wine ate least 6 times a week.  
Baptism is entry / membership in the church.



LittleDrummerBoy said:


> 1. In the last few years, some churches are becoming more like an arm of the government: supporting public schools and opposing home schooling, supporting government overreaches like mandatory vaccinations, backing away from persecuted members, failing to be a prophetic voice exposing sin in government officials, etc.  Is Jesus really saying that the United States is the greatest nation on earth?
> 
> Is the point of Romans 13 really that government need not be limited by their own laws (like the Constitution) or that a government “of the people, by the people, for the people” should not be accountable to those same people?  If good Christians live up to their contracts and covenants, why don’t good governments have to live up to the 1st and 2nd amendments?   Churches that imply that Romans 13 means Christians should tolerate government violations of the Constitution are implicitly teaching our daughters that Ephesians 5:22 means that wives should tolerate their husbands’ marital infidelity.


  The Bible and the church clearly teach how the Christian should behave toward government.



LittleDrummerBoy said:


> 2. Rather than supporting parental authority, some churches undermine parental authority by taking neutral positions on whether teens really need to obey their parents. Even if the official position remains consistent with Scripture, the practical application often gives teens permission to disobey, and leaders often enable and hide destructive and disobedient behaviors of teens. Should teens really find sympathy in church leaders regarding whether parental boundaries are reasonable or whether consequences for misbehavior are appropriate?


They need a new church seem to remember a verse "children obey your parents."



LittleDrummerBoy said:


> 3. Churches have swung toward supporting politically correct positions rather than simply correct Biblical positions: Global warming and low wages are not worse than adultery and stealing. Sex trafficking is not worse than abortion. Body shaming is not worse than drug abuse.  The Ten Commandments was given to all mankind as a summary of God’s eternal moral law for mankind.  Avoiding them in favor of more modern interpretations about right and wrong undermines parental efforts toward more Biblical discipleship.


Need a new church



LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Parents concerned with the sanctity of marriage are turned off by church tributes to the serial adulterer fraud of a Christian preacher (MLK).  Thou shall not celebrate adulterers if you want to be trusted with children of parents who appreciate the Ten Commandments. He may have been a great man, but churches are undermining the voice of parents regarding sexual purity, the importance of waiting until marriage, and the absolute unacceptability of adultery.  If MLK can be praised and celebrated and hailed as a Christian hero in spite of his unrepentant adultery, then how can we expect teens not to rationalize that giving into similar temptations is not so bad?  If a preacher (MLK) can break his sacred marriage vows and be a great man, can the preachers at your church break theirs also?


Not us.  Two sons, one who remained sexually pure until marriage, the second is still pure and probably soon to be engaged.



LittleDrummerBoy said:


> 4. Many churches are compromised on the belief in a Biblical six day creation, absence of death before the fall, and formation of Adam from clay and Eve from Adam, “from the beginning of creation.”  Compromised creation doctrines open the door to acceptance of adulterous remarriages, broad acceptance of fornication, and tolerance of Sodomite marriage.  Some churches further call into question whether **** is real and whether it is eternal.  Should any parent be eager for their church to undermine such essential elements of Biblical revelation and the preaching of the gospel?


 No.  WE don't



LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Parents should obey the Scripture, “Do not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing.” But rather than wholeheartedly trust the church as a source of sound teaching, good example, and Christian practice, many parents regretfully have to teach their children that “Jesus would not entrust himself to any man, because he knew what was in a man.”


I do trust the church.  We believe what  Christendom has believed for 2000+ years and the VAST majority of Christendom believes today.  




LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Absence from church activities may often be a failure of parents, but it is more often a failure of the church to win the trust of parents.


 Parents need a new view of what church should be.


WOW.  Sounds like "church" has failed a bunch of folks.  I do know this;  I will not leave Jesus because of Judas.


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## Madman (Jul 11, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Why should the average Christian find their way back to church if so many churches offer so little in terms of feeding and shepherding the sheep?


  What does the Christian need to be "fed"?



LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Churches should figure out what we need to do differently to meet the real needs of the sheep. Being in church is often not only a waste of time, it is a negative experience, because Scriptural teaching is replaced by the traditions of man, and dead religion replaces real relationship with God the Father through Jesus Christ.


  Flesh this out for me please.  What needs? Corporate worship of God is a waste of time, negative? How can any worship in spirit and truth be a waste of time?  What traditions of men are you talking about? Explain "dead religion".
What do you mean by "real relationship with God the Father through Jesus Christ"?



LittleDrummerBoy said:


> Churches have the greater burden to offer worthwhile Biblical teaching, preaching, and worship than the sheep have to keep showing up when Churches are failing in their job.



How do you know if Biblical teaching at your church is worthwhile? Is it because you agree with it? I have to trust the church because I do not read and understand the original languages, and fully understand the culture into which it was written.  The church has 2000+ year old documents that it has kept on these topics, the church has struggled with many societal problems and heresies over the centuries, some are settled and some are being settled.

Sounds like you need a good church, the true church.

If I can help let me know.

God's peace my friend.  
Christ said; "come unto me all ye that travail and are heavy laden and I will give you rest".


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 11, 2019)

Madman said:


> Need a new church



I'm not personally looking for a new church, since the one I'm serving in now is pretty good and working hard to improve.

But I do meet lots of people in Georgia who are looking for new churches who ask me for recommendations.  By your testimony, it sounds like yours is pretty good.  Can you provide links to a statement of faith, membership requirements, and possibly some sermon videos to allow a more complete assessment so that I can possibly recommend it to brothers and sisters in Christ looking for a new church?


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## Madman (Jul 11, 2019)

We believe what the Church has believed for over 2000 years.

https://www.stbarnabasatl.org/home

Send them on they will be welcomed with the love of Christ.

P.S. we drive an hour several times a week.  It is well worth it.
There is a lot of reading at the site.  Let me know what you think.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 11, 2019)

j_seph said:


> Then you find a church that feeds its flock.
> 
> 
> Only thing the church needs to figure out is to follow and obey God. If your in a church that feels like a waste of time, a negative experience, that has traditions of man then maybe it is time to leave and find a church where God is invited to the services. Our little church, I can only tell you what time service starts. There are no clocks on the wall. Last night for example, we started at 7 as usual, we did not get done until 9:45. How many average Christians would have already gotten up and left by 8:30?
> ...



J.  I attend a Baptist Church and I've seen the Spirit move so much before the service the Pastor couldn't start just from being overwhelmed by the Spirit.  It's powerful and there's no mistaking it.  PM sent btw.


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## j_seph (Jul 11, 2019)

https://www.sermonaudio.com/saplayer/playpopup.asp?SID=626182250517


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## j_seph (Jul 11, 2019)

Two local Pastors up this way. Hope y'all enjoy. Reminder all of these sermons are not wrote down by man. They are not planned out nor rehearsed prior to.



Russell Burt
https://www.sermonaudio.com/search....SpeakerOnly=true&AudioOnly=false&sortby=added

Chris Gilbert
https://www.sermonaudio.com/search....rsection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=Chris_Gilbert


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 11, 2019)

j_seph said:


> First burden of a church should be leading the lost to Christ.



OK, let's go with that.  Suppose your church leads a man to Christ.  He repents, turns to God, confesses and professes, and is baptized by your church.  Now, can he join your church even if he earns his living as the proprietor of a liquor store, as an employee of a beer distribution company, or as a bartender?  Or does your church membership requirements exclude those who participate in the sale of "intoxicating beverages"?



j_seph said:


> Can you stand up in your church and give your testimony still? If so how often does that happen?



Every time I've felt prompted by the Holy Spirit to give a testimony, I've been allowed to.  It's fairly common in our church.  What about your church?  Would it allow a testimony to miraculous healing?  Fulfilled personal prophecy?  Receiving the gift of tongues?  A miraculous provision of wine for a wedding?  Or would testimonies of this nature bring "correction"?


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## j_seph (Jul 12, 2019)

LittleDrummerBoy said:


> OK, let's go with that.  Suppose your church leads a man to Christ.  He repents, turns to God, confesses and professes, and is baptized by your church.  Now, can he join your church even if he earns his living as the proprietor of a liquor store, as an employee of a beer distribution company, or as a bartender?  Or does your church membership requirements exclude those who participate in the sale of "intoxicating beverages"?
> 
> 
> 
> Every time I've felt prompted by the Holy Spirit to give a testimony, I've been allowed to.  It's fairly common in our church.  What about your church?  Would it allow a testimony to miraculous healing?  Fulfilled personal prophecy?  Receiving the gift of tongues?  A miraculous provision of wine for a wedding?  Or would testimonies of this nature bring "correction"?


I can not honestly answer that question. That does go against the church covenant. However I do see if someone wants to join a church, not just ours but anyones church then their belief is going to be in like minded and in agreement with the church they want to join. I would not go and join a JW church, because that is not what I believe in. That is like some religions condim those with tattoos. Our Pastor was telling us of a preacher that visited once that had tattoos. After service another preacher told him he did good but it didn't matter how good he preached, he would not get into Heaven with all those tattoos. Our Pastor stopped him right there and set him straight. Some churches say that a man who has been divorced cannot preach. If God called you to preach, he called you to preach.


Read my post, we had a service just a short time back and the entire service turned into testimonies from almost everyone in the church. My wife prayed to touch the hem of his garment just as in the bible. She had stage 3 Diastolic Heart Failure. She left it at the alter, her doctor has asked 3 times now what is she doing different because this does not just go away. There is no medical explanation for it he says. I have heard someone cut lose one Sunday morning in service that was praying, talking to the Lord and I cannot tell you what she said. At that time our Pastor was preaching hard, another preacher cut loose preaching just as hard.


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## LittleDrummerBoy (Jul 12, 2019)

The Rednecks n Cowboys have a free concert tomorrow.  I do believe in church attendance, just not twisting arms to get people there.

https://www.gainesvilletimes.com/ci...-n-Cowboys-Free-Concert/6893806/2019-07-13T18


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