# Verses against or for forming beliefs?



## Artfuldodger (Feb 8, 2012)

When you are forming a belief or researching your feelings on a topic, do you try to find just as many verses against your feelings as verses that support your belief? I try to do this and ask God's guidance.
Some scientist & doctors gather data to backup their beliefs and manipulate the data in their favor.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 8, 2012)

My feelings on a topic are irrelevant.  I look at what the church has always believed and taught.  If my interpretation of a scripture is new or unique, then I can be pretty confident I'm the one who is wrong.


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## JB0704 (Feb 8, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> My feelings on a topic are irrelevant.  I look at what the church has always believed and taught.  If my interpretation of a scripture is new or unique, then I can be pretty confident I'm the one who is wrong.



Putting a lot of faith in men?  With the church's track record of getting many things wrong, I tend to try and see what it says myself.  The problem I have is a lack of training on reading Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, as well as insufficient cultural understanding.  

But, I believe we are supposed to understand why the church believes what it does as well.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 8, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Putting a lot of faith in men?



I put my faith in men every day.  Ever drive on 285?


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## JB0704 (Feb 8, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> I put my faith in men every day.  Ever drive on 285?



Yes, every day....top end.  But, that reinforces my point.  I have to always be ready when the next guy over decides to be an idiot.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 8, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Yes, every day....top end.  But, that reinforces my point.  I have to always be ready when the next guy over decides to be an idiot.



My point is that, whenever we read the Bible, we should acknowledge that we are not the first.  Smart, godly men and women read it before us.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 8, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I tend to try and see what it says myself.



There's nothing wrong with that.  The problem is when people decide their interpretation trumps all others.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 8, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> When you are forming a belief or researching your feelings on a topic, do you try to find just as many verses against your feelings as verses that support your belief? I try to do this and ask God's guidance.
> Some scientist & doctors gather data to backup their beliefs and manipulate the data in their favor.



If scripture is consistent in it's message on a topic (and it is), then you will not find verses that are "for" AND verses that are "against" how you feel on a matter.

You will only find "for" OR "against".

As CF said, how you "feel" about a matter is irrelevant if scripture is your guide.  It is the Word of God.  It is true and it is reliable.  Read what it says and do everything in your power to not interject what you WANT it to say.  That will be your guide.

Yes, you should research what scripture says.  But you will not find it contradicting itself.


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## JB0704 (Feb 8, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> There's nothing wrong with that.  The problem is when people decide their interpretation trumps all others.



Ok, can we try a tricky subject here?

Husband of one wife.  Three folks look at it and see three different things.  Many churches for years thought that it meant "never divoced."  Many churches look at it and see "not a polygamist."  Many conservative interpretations look at it and see "only ever 'known' one woman."

There are problems with all three viewpoints, and valid counter-points exist.  

What's a man to do in such a situation?


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## JB0704 (Feb 8, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> As CF said, how you "feel" about a matter is irrelevant if scripture is your guide.  It is the Word of God.  It is true and it is reliable.  Read what it says and do everything in your power to not interject what you WANT it to say.  That will be your guide.



Oh, but we have to understand context and culture, or we will end up selling everything we own and give it away then find a roving band of communal Christians with which to share resources......


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## centerpin fan (Feb 8, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Husband of one wife.



I'm not sure what the traditional view of that is.  What I am talking about is basic doctrines of Christianity:  heaven, h-e double hockey sticks, Jesus, the church, salvation, etc.


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## JB0704 (Feb 8, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> I'm not sure what the traditional view of that is.  What I am talking about is basic doctrines of Christianity:  heaven, h-e double hockey sticks, Jesus, the church, salvation, etc.



Ok, I follow now.  I was thinking small stuff.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 8, 2012)

Do you have the same view of every Biblical topic as your church? Why read the Bible, just let your pastor tell you what it says. Every preacher i've ever had  has different views from the past preacher. The church members always went along with the views of the present preacher such as going to a restaurant on Sunday etc. These usually weren't views of the church doctrine. How do I know which denomination to put my faith in if i don't read the Bible?


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## centerpin fan (Feb 8, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why read the Bible ...




"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

-- 2 Timothy 3:16-17


"... we are required to read Holy Scripture with our actions, by putting it into practice, so that its Life becomes our life."

-- Metropolitan Cyprian of Oropos and Fili


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## centerpin fan (Feb 8, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you have the same view of every Biblical topic as your church?



As far as the basic doctrines I mentioned above?  Yes, absolutely.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 8, 2012)

This is going to be fun. I'll get back to y'all when I can. 

Funny how people puff up when scripture is given authority. 

reread what I wrote. I said you will not find scripture conflicting itself on a particular issue. I did not say anything about a particular issue. What I said was scripture will not give you conflicting information on an issue. It will either agree with you or disagree but it will not do both.


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## bullethead (Feb 8, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Yes, you should research what scripture says.  But you will not find it contradicting itself.



Please explain what you mean by scripture not contradicting itself.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 8, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> This is going to be fun. I'll get back to y'all when I can.
> 
> Funny how people puff up when scripture is given authority.
> 
> reread what I wrote. I said you will not find scripture conflicting itself on a particular issue. I did not say anything about a particular issue. What I said was scripture will not give you conflicting information on an issue. It will either agree with you or disagree but it will not do both.



Sorry to disagree here, but you say it does not conflict. But take a walk over to CARM discussion forumn and observe how 1000 people are disagreeing with each other. Why??? because each have pulled out the verses he is using as a sword and the opposing has pulled out the verses they are using as a sword and a major sword fight has gone viral. Correction; 917 at the momment, probably close to 1500 by 9:00


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 8, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Putting a lot of faith in men?  With the church's track record of getting many things wrong, I tend to try and see what it says myself.  The problem I have is a lack of training on reading Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, as well as insufficient cultural understanding.
> 
> But, I believe we are supposed to understand why the church believes what it does as well.


Hey JB, something you might find interesting. I don't know greek, well a little maybe, but I have a greek/NIV parrallel bible. You can get them for any translation. It is the NIV on the left column and the greek [the manuscript from which our translations came from] on the right column. Here is how it benefits. Take for example "The Lord said to my Lord" These are two different greek words translated as one. What a mess.  Col 1:16,  "For by him all things were created...... all things were created by him and for him". When you observe the greek you will see something else. The first "by" should have been "in". Just flip over to Eph 2: 6, I think and see the same "in" used properly "created in Christ Jesus" Now see the second "by". This should have been "through". This can be verified by looking at Col 1:20 to see them use it correctly as "through". Now there is no way that Paul wrote one word in the same breath and meant 2 different things. You will quickly see many things like this. I could go on and on. And notice that this is not my opinion. It is a matter of comparing usuages. You will realize that biased translators have forever affected the truth. I think you can get these "parrallel " bibles in the Hebrew also. But I don't have one. I hate to stop, I could show you tons of this


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## Huntinfool (Feb 8, 2012)

People conflict with each other on interpretation. Scripture does not contradict itself on issues. It is consistent in issues. 

If it is just the words of men then it is errant. If it is the Word of God then there cannot be contradictions. 

I know you guys are going to have with this. His just might be the thread that helps me get bak in here again.


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## bullethead (Feb 8, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> People conflict with each other on interpretation. Scripture does not contradict itself on issues. It is consistent in issues.
> 
> If it is just the words of men then it is errant. If it is the Word of God then there cannot be contradictions.
> 
> I know you guys are going to have with this. His just might be the thread that helps me get bak in here again.



?????


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## Israel (Feb 8, 2012)

perhaps all or any discrepancies between what we "say" we believe...and what we believe will soon be made manifest...perhaps in time, first...to our very own selves...


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## hummerpoo (Feb 8, 2012)

Rather than go back and look for "who said what" to quote, I'll just throw out some of what came to mind as I read the thread.

My rule has long been "If everybody says you are wrong, it doesn't mean you are wrong; it means you need to take another look".  The results vary.  Sometimes I find that I've missed something.  Other times I find I've been misunderstood because I didn't state it correctly.  If I don't find either of those, and I keep digging, I many times find that not everybody says I am wrong.  All of this maintaining focus on Scripture and Spirit.  Oh yah, and some of them I've been working on for a looong time and still haven't resolved.

A couple of days after 9-11, I saw a Christian lady from Sudan who was a professor of Islamic Studies at George Washington University on  TV.  She was ask if the Koran she had refered to was a translation or an interpretation.  Her response was "All translations are interpretations."  My experience in Bible study (sometimes looking up every Hebrew word in a verse (in two or three different dictionaries), then looking at the verse in a dozen different Bible translations and paraphrases) tells me that that is one smart lady.

I've never found a conflict in scripture.  I have found some things that appear to be conflicts that make you work really hard, and some things that will clearify what you thought you already knew, but never a conflict.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 8, 2012)

I never intended this to be a debate on contradictions as I thought that was a given. However i'm okay with the post going in that direction. It would have to go that way with people believing there are no contradictions. How would you explain all the different denominations of Protestants, Catholics, & Jehovah Witness? How would you explain the different versions of the Bible. I grew up with the King James version and it still takes some getting use to reading another interpretation.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 8, 2012)

Any verses that contradict these?
If Jesus was God

  At the very outset of Jesus’ ministry, when he came up out of the baptismal water, God’s voice from heaven said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” (Matthew 3:16, 17) Was God saying that he was his own son, that he approved himself, that he sent himself? No, God the Creator was saying that he, as the superior, was approving a lesser one, his Son Jesus, for the work ahead. Jesus indicated his Father’s superiority when he said: “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor.” (Luke 4:18) Anointing is the giving of authority or a commission by a superior to someone who does not already have authority. Here God is plainly the superior, for he anointed Jesus, giving him authority that he did not previously have. Jesus made his Father’s superiority clear when the mother of two disciples asked that her sons sit one at the right and one at the left of Jesus when he came into his Kingdom. Jesus answered: “As for seats at my right hand and my left, these are not mine to grant; they belong to those to whom they have been allotted by my Father,” that is, God. (Matthew 20:23) Had Jesus been Almighty God, those positions would have been his to give. But Jesus could not give them, for they were God’s to give, and Jesus was not God.
Jesus’ own prayers are a powerful example of his inferior position. When Jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: “Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” (Luke 22:42) To whom was he praying? To a part of himself? No, he was praying to someone entirely separate, his Father, God, whose will was superior and could be different from his own, the only One able to “remove this cup. ”Then, as he neared death, Jesus cried out: “My God, my God, why have you deserted me?” (Mark 15:34, JB) To whom was Jesus crying out? To himself or to part of himself? Surely, that cry, “My God,” was not from someone who considered himself to be God. And if Jesus were God, then by whom was he deserted? Himself? That would not make sense. Jesus also said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” (Luke 23:46) If Jesus were God, for what reason should he entrust his spirit to the Father?After Jesus died, he was in the tomb for parts of three days. The Bible says that Jesus  died and was unconscious in the tomb. Who resurrected Jesus from the dead? If he was truly dead, he could not have resurrected himself. On the other hand, if he was not really dead, his pretended death would not have paid the ransom price for Adam’s sin. But he did pay that price in full by his genuine death. So it was “God [who] resurrected [Jesus] by loosing the pangs of death.” (Acts 2:24) 
Does Jesus’ ability to perform miracles, such as resurrecting people, indicate that he was God? Well, the apostles and the prophets Elijah and Elisha had that power too, but that did not make them more than men. God gave the power to perform miracles to the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles to show that He was backing them. But it did not make any of them part of a plural Godhead or trinity.

1 Timothy 2:5 
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."  


One scripture sometimes used by people who accept the trinity is John 14:7:
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.” Some Christians feel this proves God and Jesus were the same person. However, reading the verse in context demonstrates this is not at all what the Savior was saying.
In verse 10, Jesus says, “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” Here, Jesus Christ clearly says he isn’t speaking for Himself, but for God, and it’s God doing the works, not Him. This makes it very clear they are separate beings. Jesus promises to pray to God to ask God to send a comforter to His apostles when He’s gone, something that would not be necessary if they were the same person. But in verse 20, we learn exactly what Jesus means when He talks about being in the Father:
“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” If the previous verses had the meaning that “I am in my Father” meant they were the same person, then the next phrase, “And ye in me, and I in you” would mean the apostles were also the same person as Jesus, making it far larger than a trinity. Jesus uses similar phrasing often, instructing the apostles to be one with each other as He is one with His Father. What He meant, obviously, was to be completely unified in love, doctrine, and purpose.
The testimony of Stephen is even more clear about the separateness of Jesus and God: “But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:55-56)

•	Jesus said, "The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." (John 13:16) Jesus said on numerous occasions that, "the Father… hath sent me." (John 5:37,6:37) The Holy Ghost was also sent by the Father (John 14:26) and Jesus (John 16:7), thus making Jesus inferior to the Father and the Holy Ghost inferior to both the Father and Jesus.
•	"And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the spirit of truth." (John 14:16)
•	Jesus prays to God. (John 17:1-3)
•	Jesus has faith in God. (Hebrews 2:17,18, Hebrews 3:2)
•	Jesus is a servant of God. (Acts 3:13)
•	Jesus does not know things God knows. (Mark 13:32, Revelation 1:1)
•	Jesus worships God. (John 4:22)
•	Jesus has one who is God to him. (Revelation 3:12)
•	Jesus is in subjection to God. (1 Corinthians 15:28)
•	Jesus' head is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
•	Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God. (Hebrews 5:7)
•	Jesus is given lordship by God. (Acts 2:36)
•	Jesus is exalted by God.(Acts 5:31)
•	Jesus is made high priest by God. (Hebrews 5:10)
•	Jesus is given authority by God. (Philippians 2:9)
•	Jesus is given kingship by God. (Luke 1:32,33)
•	Jesus is given judgment by God. (Acts 10:42)
•	"God raised [Jesus] from the dead". (Acts 2:24, Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:15)
•	Jesus is at the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34)
•	Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man. (1 Timothy 2:5)
•	God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)
•	Jesus did not think being "equal with God" was graspable. (Philippians 2:6)
•	"Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"" (Matthew 27:46)
These probably came from a Jehovah Witness site but the verses are out of the Bible.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 8, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> How would you explain all the different denominations of Protestants, Catholics, & Jehovah Witness?



Private interpretation of scripture.




Artfuldodger said:


> How would you explain the different versions of the Bible.



Without getting too involved in a forbidden topic ... some versions are based on different texts.  The KJV (the NT part anyway) is based on the Textus Receptus Greek text.  Modern versions like the NIV are based on a different Greek text.

There are also different translation theories.  For example, some Bibles translate word-for-word (like the NASB) while others are more thought-for-thought (like the NIV.)  That method is called "dynamic equivalence".

Finally, some versions are produced by a particular group or denomination, resulting in a version that mirrors that group's theology.  The JW's New World Translation is one example.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 8, 2012)

We err when we use the Bible for nothing more than a way to prove what we believe.

If you want to understand the great power of Romans chap 8, one has to read and study the entire letter.
If you want to understand divorce, you've got to understand holy marriage first.

Everytime I read the Bible, I read it for me, not the church.
God's Word is for His church, not His church for the Bible.
I don't care what you believe, I believe the Bible.  Not just a verse that someone tosses at me, but all of it.

I know more about it now than I've ever known before, but I still don't know enough.

Don't take your beliefs to the Bible, let the Bible lead you to God's ways.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 8, 2012)

It will take me a long long time before I understand all scripture. I too, do not think it contradicts itself...but rightly dividing the word, takes time, sometimes a lifetime...seek and ye shall find.
So this was my first thought....

Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 9, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> We err when we use the Bible for nothing more than a way to prove what we believe.
> 
> If you want to understand the great power of Romans chap 8, one has to read and study the entire letter.
> If you want to understand divorce, you've got to understand holy marriage first.
> ...



Yes.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 9, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I never intended this to be a debate on contradictions as I thought that was a given. However i'm okay with the post going in that direction. It would have to go that way with people believing there are no contradictions. How would you explain all the different denominations of Protestants, Catholics, & Jehovah Witness? How would you explain the different versions of the Bible. I grew up with the King James version and it still takes some getting use to reading another interpretation.



I would explain it as people interpreting passages differently.  Ask them all.  Catholics, JH, Methodist, Baptist.  They will all tell you that scripture is the Word of God and does not contradict itself and cannot if it's the Word of God.  It goes against his very nature.

People disagree.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 9, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Don't take your beliefs to the Bible, let the Bible lead you to God's ways.



Exactly my man.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 9, 2012)

So we've got some people who say "let your church tell you what the Bible says" and others who say "read it and form your on opinion."   
Don't take your beliefs to the Bible, let the Bible lead you to God's ways. Would this mean, read the Bible, ask God for guidance, and then look for a church with your views. Because it seems like some are telling me just the opposite.


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## gtparts (Feb 9, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> When you are forming a belief or researching your feelings on a topic, do you try to find just as many verses against your feelings as verses that support your belief? I try to do this and ask God's guidance.
> Some scientist & doctors gather data to backup their beliefs and manipulate the data in their favor.





centerpin fan said:


> My feelings on a topic are irrelevant.  I look at what the church has always believed and taught.  If my interpretation of a scripture is new or unique, then I can be pretty confident I'm the one who is wrong.



"You are not what you feel—you are what you believe. Your feelings will catch up if you're steadfast in your belief."

     - Joyce Meyer-


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## Huntinfool (Feb 9, 2012)

Clearly, I don't agree with anything you said in that post.  What is clear and "right in front of my eyes" in your view is just not so in my view.  Not because somebody told me to believe it blindly and overlook things, but because I truly do not see it the way you do.

So, I understand what you think.  It does not affect me in any way.  You know me well enough to know the evidence DOES matter very much to me.

All the evidence points to consistency on issues.  There may be verses that seem to conflict on timeline, etc.  But issues is what we are dealing with here.  Marriage, divorce, salvation, sin, judgement, sacriments, etc.  The Bible is incredibly consistent on each and every one of these if you do not pick and choose and if you are committed to context.

My entire point is that the OP asked how we come to beliefs and what we do when the Bible isn't clear on something we believe.  He's asking how we decide between the verses the agree with our position and those that don't.  My point is that there aren't both.  If you read scripture, it will either confirm your belief or disagree.  It will not do both on a particular issue.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 9, 2012)

> Would this mean, read the Bible, ask God for guidance, and then look for a church with your views.



No, it means read the Bible, ask God for guidance and he will give it to you.  Look for a church that agrees with scripture.



> If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.



Sometimes understanding may come directly from God.  Sometimes he may put someone in your life is is more mature in his faith to guide you.  Wisdom that comes from your "church" or "elders" is not a bad thing.  I don't understand why people automatically assume that if someone in your church guides your understanding on an issue, that is a bad thing.

If you don't trust the leaders of your church and your spiritual authority figures, please....go find a church with godly leaders.


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## Israel (Feb 9, 2012)

The question always becomes "what does agree with scripture mean?" Does it mean "agrees with my perception/understanding of it?"
How does one judge whether a leader is Godly...unless one is...themselves?
Just questions...


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 9, 2012)

Wisdom that comes from your "church" or "elders" is not a bad thing. I agree with this, most cultures do a better job of this than Americans.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 9, 2012)

The Holy scriptures are much more fulfilling and fruitful when one reads them as the original recipients read them,  wanting to understand that which was previously not understood.  Not find contridiction, and not to see if there's a scripture that might prove that I don't have to do, say, or respond in a particular way.
Just read it, accept it, enjoy it, find God in it.

I've found that people who are serious Bible reader are seldom able to justify their particular belief by quoting only one scripture.  They'll tell you about the chapter.  Or about the night Jesus met with Nickodemus.


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## gtparts (Feb 10, 2012)

Many, myself included, often form beliefs based on what we read, hear, see.

But that is all they are..... my beliefs. The object of our search should be the truth, that which is absolutely knowable and applicable in every situation. Let our beliefs stand on the truth and not on our opinions.

Too often we seek to lay our own foundation rather than use the one that never fails. Man is (and usually to his regret) a stubborn soul, an obstinate creature. There is a time to move forward with courage, a time to stand with unwavering fortitude, and a time to fall back or retreat, born of wisdom. God grant us the heart and mind to seek His will in all matters. Then our beliefs will be based in truth.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2012)

In theory the last two post makes since and I strive to do that when reading the Bible but at some point the free will granted to me by God kicks in. It eventually becomes up to me to form my interpretations of the Bible. Granted I can get help from, God, Church Elders, preachers, parents, & teachers. I can gain guidance from reading the various Bible versions & literature. But in the end because of free will, I have to use my own brain.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 10, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> In theory the last two post makes since and I strive to do that when reading the Bible but at some point the free will granted to me by God kicks in. It eventually becomes up to me to form my interpretations of the Bible. Granted I can get help from, God, Church Elders, preachers, parents, & teachers. I can gain guidance from reading the various Bible versions & literature. But in the end because of free will, I have to use my own brain.


    It's quite possible to also use the Holy Spirit.

    Read Romans 8 sometimes with this in mind.

And, by the way, welcome to the club.  We all do our share of "messin it up".


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2012)

Interesting read of Romans 8, Thanks for the reference. We sometimes forget the Holy Spirit is in us & can help us. I like the "Jars of clay" analogy elsewhere in the Bible. The jars are cracked and some of the spirit leaks out.We need refilling from time to time.
Growing up in my Baptist Church, I don't remember the preacher talking about receiving the Holy Spirit. I think proof of receiving the Holy Spirit are the Fruits of the Spirit talked abut in Gal. 5:22-23.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 10, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Interesting read of Romans 8, Thanks for the reference. We sometimes forget the Holy Spirit is in us & can help us. I like the "Jars of clay" analogy elsewhere in the Bible. The jars are cracked and some of the spirit leaks out.We need refilling from time to time.
> Growing up in my Baptist Church, I don't remember the preacher talking about receiving the Holy Spirit. I think proof of receiving the Holy Spirit are the Fruits of the Spirit talked abut in Gal. 5:22-23.



This might help someone seeking information or understanding of the Holy Spirit.

Billy Graham's book, Holy Spirit, a very short book. But it changed my life.  I was working a fill in job one day and it was quite slow, and I found that book in one of the drawers only book in the store. I was just turning from my previous wild life, and that book really helped me understand something I had never understood before about the Holy Spirit. Most of y'all know all about Him.  I do now....and just thinking about what it did to me when I read it, I've got cold chills.

I have no doubt that book was there for me to read. Next thing I know, a black pastor came in to pay his bill that I'd known from the main office. And I started talking to him and ask him if I could tithe to his church. Anyway that's how I ended up in a very small black church with maybe 15 attendance on sunday besides the kids. It was a storefront downtown right on crack central corner. I was there for a year. They really reached me, and I learned in that one year everything I hadn't learned in 46 yrs. 
That's the Holy Spirit working. That whole story is such a great witness for me when I witness to friends who know how wild and crazy I used to be, and so are/were they....and when I'm talking deliverence from a lot of things, they can dig exactly what I'm talkin' bout. 

Thank you Lord Jesus


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## Israel (Feb 11, 2012)

No one born of God's spirit long continues unaware of the very presence of another, no matter how deficiently they may have been mentored/discipled, developed any scriptural literacy, or even spent much time in communing/praying/seeking the Lord's will.
But I am convinced such a time will come when the spirit Himself will convict such a one of that need.
Simply put, no child of God can ever escape coming to this point, whether it be moments after conversion or years...

"Lord, what would you have me to do?"

God is remarkably patient for us to develop in our souls the framing of that very precise question, and also, will then begin to answer, accordingly, in the same precision.
Most often, (I believe) it is with hunger, and thirst.

No longer for all the things with which we have fed ourselves, but a very different and (always) new meat.

Hunger is troubling. Thirst is desperate. 
But every child of God, begotten by his spirit will come to see their utter dependency and even learn when finally shown the banquet, "Lord, although I know you have told me this is all mine...where shall I start?"

Going to the very end of the line of fellow diners is often (perhaps always) most needful. 
It is there we learn Someone has been chosen to serve us...and in our waiting, he brings us precisely, back from the table, the portion he has both appointed, and will be true bread and drink to our souls.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 11, 2012)

If God has ever allowed me to see Truth clearly expressed, it is here in these last two posts.

Thank you Lord, and thanks to both of you for being His conduit.


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## dawg2 (Feb 11, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> My feelings on a topic are irrelevant.  I look at what the church has always believed and taught.  If my interpretation of a scripture is new or unique, then I can be pretty confident I'm the one who is wrong.



...I wish more would come to that epiphany...


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 11, 2012)

I agree if an individuals interpretation is unique it could be wrong but what about a whole denomination or Church interpreting scripture unique? Mormons & Jehovah  Witness come to my mind right away. Methodist belief of sprinkling instead of immersion, Apostolic Pentecostals belief in Oneness, & Primitive Baptist & Lutherans belief in election. These are unique interpretations that whole denominations hold. I'm not showing these as a division because I hold some of the unique interpretations of the scriptures that all of the above groups hold.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 11, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree if an individuals interpretation is unique it could be wrong but what about a whole denomination or Church interpreting scripture unique? Mormons & Jehovah  Witness come to my mind right away. Methodist belief of sprinkling instead of immersion, Apostolic Pentecostals belief in Oneness, & Primitive Baptist & Lutherans belief in election. These are unique interpretations that whole denominations hold. I'm not showing these as a division because I hold some of the unique interpretations of the scriptures that all of the above groups hold.



I see sprinkling, oneness, and election as being distinctive, but not unique.  Am I being picky?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 11, 2012)

There are probably few interpretations of scriptures that are unique.
One of the groups I listed does not think Jesus is God.That's not unique. Catholics believe that Mary "Mother of God" made an ascension into heaven. That's not unique either. The unique word might not be the correct word to use.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 11, 2012)

The Eastern Orthodox Church interpretations of scripture is that Christians actually become God. That might be unique.
Now Christians are supposed to become just like Jesus. If Jesus is God (as per John 1:1, 14; 5:18; 8:58-59; 10:30, 33-34; 20:28; Colossians 2:9), what is implied by such a text as Ephesians 4:12-13:

"To the building up of the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ."

If we're ultimately fully like Christ, wouldn't we be fully like God?


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## gordon 2 (Feb 11, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> When you are forming a belief or researching your feelings on a topic, do you try to find just as many verses against your feelings as verses that support your belief? I try to do this and ask God's guidance.
> Some scientist & doctors gather data to backup their beliefs and manipulate the data in their favor.



I don't believe anything at all. I just try to understand the Good News. In my efforts to learn and understand I sift sands and push through-- my hand where the Good News guides me. Being born again to a new life is not a belief, it is a reality. That reality is full of newness and knowledge. Belief is no longer a necessity. Faith has run hope to the finish line.

The things of God are not from the things He believes, but the  things He knows. His creations are not from belief; They are from knowing. And that knowledge for christians is simply the Good News.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 11, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Ok, can we try a tricky subject here?
> 
> Husband of one wife.  Three folks look at it and see three different things.  Many churches for years thought that it meant "never divoced."  Many churches look at it and see "not a polygamist."  Many conservative interpretations look at it and see "only ever 'known' one woman."
> 
> ...



The overall context or key to understanding here might simply be " The Good News o' the Kingdom".

Imagine what scriptural interpretations and doctrines might look like if doctors and scolars were enlightened from their creeds, instead of from the light of being born again and for this to the reality of the Good News? The world today? and that forever belief in "that day" tomorrow?

The whole reality of God and man is in the balance and lifetimes of hacking through the thickets, 25 yards from and parallel to a paved road.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 11, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you have the same view of every Biblical topic as your church? Why read the Bible, just let your pastor tell you what it says. Every preacher i've ever had  has different views from the past preacher. The church members always went along with the views of the present preacher such as going to a restaurant on Sunday etc. These usually weren't views of the church doctrine. How do I know which denomination to put my faith in if i don't read the Bible?



You should let denominations put themselves in your faith. Not the other way around.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 11, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> We err when we use the Bible for nothing more than a way to prove what we believe.
> 
> If you want to understand the great power of Romans chap 8, one has to read and study the entire letter.
> If you want to understand divorce, you've got to understand holy marriage first.
> ...


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## centerpin fan (Feb 11, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> The Eastern Orthodox Church interpretations of scripture is that Christians actually become God. That might be unique.



That might be unique ... if it were true.  A created being cannot become the uncreated God.  We "may participate in the divine nature" as Peter says, but that's all.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 11, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> That might be unique ... if it were true.  A created being cannot become the uncreated God.  We "may participate in the divine nature" as Peter says, but that's all.



The Father in Jesus as Jesus in us and as Jesus is in us so is the Father.

I suspect that the idea that christians become God is for the fact that Jesus is the example in christianity as Abraham is the model in Islam. If Jesus is the model example, and christians deem our Lord as part of Holy Trinity and God, it follows that it would seem that christians endevor to become God or as God in their saintly endevors.

I don't know that Orthodox christians accually believe that christians become God and am inclined, for instinct only, to doubt it. I have known a few Orthodox christians and some park in no park zones at hospital emergency entrances,  some like to play games while they should be working, and some generally take Ativan for anxiety like the rest of us.


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## Madman (Feb 13, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> When you are forming a belief or researching your feelings on a topic, do you try to find just as many verses against your feelings as verses that support your belief? I try to do this and ask God's guidance.
> Some scientist & doctors gather data to backup their beliefs and manipulate the data in their favor.



No!! I read the Scriptures and ask God, by the Power of the Holy Spirit, to reveal the truth to me.

Let the Word of God form you, don't use it to justify your beliefs.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 13, 2012)

Madman said:


> No!! I read the Scriptures and ask God, by the Power of the Holy Spirit, to reveal the truth to me.
> 
> Let the Word of God form you, don't use it to justify your beliefs.



Amen!!!
It's posts like this that makes it worth coming here every day to check things out.
Thanks for that!


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 13, 2012)

I've tried reading the Bible with guidance from  God, The Holy Spirit and with guidance from Church elders and I still find verses that contradict each other. I also find chapters that various "associations that follow Jesus" use to distinguish their beliefs. I'm not the only one who finds this or I would think it was just me. Maybe I should ask for guidance on how to ignore these contradictions & different associations.  The only thing I can do is read the Bible with guidance from God and let the Bible form me. I would assume that is what Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans, and Presbyterians have done. My question would be, why did the Holy Spirit guide us all so very different?


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## Ronnie T (Feb 13, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've tried reading the Bible with guidance from  God, The Holy Spirit and with guidance from Church elders and I still find verses that contradict each other. I also find chapters that various "associations that follow Jesus" use to distinguish their beliefs. I'm not the only one who finds this or I would think it was just me. Maybe I should ask for guidance on how to ignore these contradictions & different associations.  The only thing I can do is read the Bible with guidance from God and let the Bible form me. I would assume that is what Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans, and Presbyterians have done. My question would be, why did the Holy Spirit guide us all so very different?



The Holy Spirit did not.
God is not a god of confusion.
We did/do it.

.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 13, 2012)

Hey Ronnie, I'll take that into consideration and study on that for awhile. Also I would put you in the same category as Mtnwoman as being one of my favorite posters. Ya'll seem to have very good views and express them in a way as not to get angered. I don't always agree but I can see where you're coming from. You're doing a most marvelous job as a Moderator too, thanks.


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## gtparts (Feb 14, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've tried reading the Bible with guidance from  God, The Holy Spirit and with guidance from Church elders and I still find verses that contradict each other. I also find chapters that various "associations that follow Jesus" use to distinguish their beliefs. I'm not the only one who finds this or I would think it was just me. Maybe I should ask for guidance on how to ignore these contradictions & different associations.  The only thing I can do is read the Bible with guidance from God and let the Bible form me. I would assume that is what Catholics, Protestants, Lutherans, and Presbyterians have done. My question would be, why did the Holy Spirit guide us all so very different?





Ronnie T said:


> The Holy Spirit did not.
> God is not a god of confusion.
> We did/do it.
> 
> .



Good answer, RT! As I thought about it, seems we tend to blame God for the divergent ideas concerning Scripture. What I have realized is that because God created us all differently, we all "tint" what we see and hear. 
The other thing that is apparent to me is that we are often trying to create for ourselves a system that serves our preconceptions. The desire to "invent" a new twist on theological perception (what man thinks about God) often ignores the fact that these thoughts are far from new. Many of the "issues" brought up here have been examined and resolved (and discarded) by those who were/are far more educated and far closer to God than I have ever been. I suspect that is true of a large number of those who come here. Getting opinions here, from people of unknown background, is, perhaps, a dangerous way to determine what or how to believe


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## Israel (Feb 14, 2012)

The part I easily despise is the part I need most.
I usually prefer to pretend I have never been taught that, heard that or know that.
But then, I hate toothaches, bellyaches and the vomitting my easily overindulged sweet tooth bring me.

I know nothing much beyond patience and chastisement by the Lord as my salvation.

But ask me on another day and you may easily find me telling you "I had it right all along", maybe not in those precise words...but the wise will understand.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 14, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> ... why did the Holy Spirit guide us all so very different?


Maybe your question was towards all the different things that divide us, and sadly I see much that does. 
Many topics/subjects will pale in comparison to the greatest truth... Christ is the risen Lord, and they will wag their tails and grab at dominating the landscape.  I understand my own propensity for taking a subject and having it become the be-all and end all.  But I'm learning to take it "all" and put it thru all 66 books, and dependency on the Spirit. 

Now, another way to view the guidance of the Spirit, can we really suggest He causes division? Or something "better"?...
I like to think that if life/direction/personal traits, etc., were all the same, life would be real mundane.  I enjoy the flavors of different takes on scripture, as I see folks wresteling with the word and seeing life come out of the struggle. Our unique differences bring God glory that way, if we are open to the prompting of the Holy Spirit. God didn't make us to fit into some box, I believe He enjoys our own "colors" when they come along side of His grace. The prompting to take what makes us different/unique and to use it to divide us comes from the one who hates what God has birthed and gifted within the hearts of men.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 14, 2012)

Is the theological perception over because the educated few of historical times have already figured it out for us? Should we stop reading the Bible and read more Church Doctrine?


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## Huntinfool (Feb 14, 2012)

> Should we stop reading the Bible and read more Church Doctrine?



I'm sure you already know the answer to this question.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 14, 2012)

I do, my answer is all of the above. Meaning look for answers and guidance everywhere. I've learned alot from the GON forum debates, Church sites, and elders. But mostly from reading the Bible myself with guidance from the Holy Spirit. I do think Church Doctrine is important, just not as important as reading the Bible yourself.  I realize ancient men of yore spent a lot of time researching the Bible but I think men of today & tomorrow could be finding stuff out that they overlooked. Just as doctors have made leaps & bounds in medicine isn't it possible for God to guide clergy in the same way?


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## Israel (Feb 14, 2012)

There's more to be learned in receiving one another in the Lord as we have been received than in all the commentaries, sermons and catechisms we can gather.

That they all may be one; as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that you have sent me.

We only know how the Father and the son are one to the precise measure to which we also understand we are.

I need each part of the body, even and especially those parts I may find the easiest to dismiss.


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## gtparts (Feb 14, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is the theological perception over because the educated few of historical times have already figured it out for us? Should we stop reading the Bible and read more Church Doctrine?



I'll not respond to the latter inquiry. You surely know the answer.

But, to address the former, I'll simply say that everything that originates from man, theologically speaking, must pass God's litmus test. All I was saying was that we waste a significant amount of time hashing out things that have long ago been hashed. We need not expend ourselves in inventing the wheel. We are more than a few milennia too late. I'm not so sure that we don't engage in these things because it allows us to feel some sense of accomplishment. God reveals what is righteous and necessary, no more, no less. How can we or anyone claim to have noodled out what God has freely given?


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## centerpin fan (Feb 14, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I realize ancient men of yore spent a lot of time researching the Bible but I think men of today & tomorrow could be finding stuff out that they overlooked.



I do not, and it's comments like this that make me think you're trolling. 

Jude mentions "the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints ..." and Paul said,  "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."


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## JB0704 (Feb 14, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> I do not, and it's comments like this that make me think you're trolling.



I honestly don't think he is a troll.



centerpin fan said:


> Jude mentions "the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints ..." and Paul said,  "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."



Isn't that in reference to another man claiming to be Jesus?

We have the Bible, but does that mean it was figured out by the first churches?  Did Paul even have the entire Bible when he wrote that?


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## centerpin fan (Feb 14, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I honestly don't think he is a troll.



I could be wrong.




JB0704 said:


> Isn't that in reference to another man claiming to be Jesus?



Not from what I can tell.  I went back and read the passages again and didn't see anything that would suggest that.




JB0704 said:


> We have the Bible, but does that mean it was figured out by the first churches?  Did Paul even have the entire Bible when he wrote that?



First, I don't think the gospel is that hard to figure out.  

Second, I'm more inclined to trust the early church since they knew the apostles and their disciples.


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## JB0704 (Feb 14, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Not from what I can tell.  I went back and read the passages again and didn't see anything that would suggest that..



Gospel, being the teaching or revelation of Christ.  I was more referencing somebody having a "new revelation."  I had always thought that it was a warning against anything outside the Bible.  I could be wrong there too.



centerpin fan said:


> First, I don't think the gospel is that hard to figure out.



Bunch of folks in the AAA might disagree.  But, as far as the basic principles that you reference in another thread, I agree.  Again, I think I was talking about a more broad interpretation and an uinderstanding of certain themes.  For example, judgment.  We all seem to disagree on the Biblical application of that one.



centerpin fan said:


> Second, I'm more inclined to trust the early church since they knew the apostles and their disciples.



They certainly had a better frame of reference than we do.  I'm not completely sold on Orthodox, but I do see the value in the system.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 14, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Bunch of folks in the AAA might disagree.



I'm sure they would.




JB0704 said:


> They certainly had a better frame of reference than we do. I'm not completely sold on Orthodox, but I do see the value in the system.



You don't have to be Orthodox.  G.K. Chesterson (a Catholic) summed it up well:

"Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who merely happen to be walking about."


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 14, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> I do not, and it's comments like this that make me think you're trolling.
> 
> Jude mentions "the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints ..." and Paul said,  "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."



In saying "i do not", are you saying the Church elders of the past did get it all figured out? Church elders from here on out have no input? I'm not real sure what you said 'i do not" too. Are you refering to the Nicene Creed? Is the Nicene Creed Biblical?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 14, 2012)

I've only been trying to figure it out for about two years even though i was raised in the Church so bare with me.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 14, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've only been trying to *figure it *out for about two years even though i was raised in the Church so bare with me.


I do enjoy a good discussion, what is the "it" refering to. The creed or the good news???? So I can follow along


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 14, 2012)

The "Good News" of course, The creed i'm not too concerned with.
My question is if some of ya'll got the "Good News" all figured out, what is the point of debating on this forum? Maybe this forum contains the "Elders" to help me figure it out. Although i was told there are too many differing opinions on here to look for answers. As I said before, this is just one of many places i'm looking for answers. I've learned lots on this forum and will continue to learn even more, Thanks.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 14, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> In saying "i do not", are you saying the Church elders of the past did get it all figured out? Church elders from here on out have no input? I'm not real sure what you said 'i do not" too. Are you refering to the Nicene Creed? Is the Nicene Creed Biblical?



When I wrote "I do not", I meant that I do not "think men of today & tomorrow could be finding stuff out that they overlooked."

To further clarify, I believe Jude and Paul when they claim that the faith is "once and for all delivered" and that different gospels are anathema.  I don't believe the Bible is a "living, breathing document" (as many say our Constitution is) that is subject to current societal norms.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 14, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> The "Good News" of course, The creed i'm not too concerned with.
> My question is if some of ya'll got the "Good News" all figured out, what is the point of debating on this forum? Maybe this forum contains the "Elders" to help me figure it out. Although i was told there are too many differing opinions on here to look for answers. As I said before, this is just one of many places i'm looking for answers. I've learned lots on this forum and will continue to learn even more, Thanks.



A gentle suggestion brother, Take a good look at Acts 17:11 (and surrounding verses, of coarse).  Take a long, slow spiritual breath, then move forward slowly.  The path is clearly marked, but there is a lot of brush, leaf litter, and even downed logs obscuring it at times; that's why we have to remember that we are following the Spirit.  He gets easier to recognize with practice.  Oh, one more thing; it's His back we learn to know (we are following), when we get out in front, and try to turn around He can be hard to spot.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 14, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> The "Good News" of course, The creed i'm not too concerned with.
> My question is if some of ya'll got the "Good News" all figured out, what is the point of debating on this forum? Maybe this forum contains the "Elders" to help me figure it out. Although i was told there are too many differing opinions on here to look for answers. As I said before, this is just one of many places i'm looking for answers. I've learned lots on this forum and will continue to learn even more, Thanks.


The good news; giving up trying to be good enough or help God change us and rest completly in his work in us, The "obedience that comes from faith"


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## HawgJawl (Feb 17, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> I don't believe the Bible is a "living, breathing document" (as many say our Constitution is) that is subject to current societal norms.



All through the Old Testament, God's rules changed as society changed.  Why do you believe that it can no longer change?


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## centerpin fan (Feb 17, 2012)

HawgJawl said:


> All through the Old Testament, God's rules changed as society changed.  Why do you believe that it can no longer change?



As I said:



centerpin fan said:


> To further clarify, I believe Jude and Paul when they claim that the faith is "once and for all delivered" and that different gospels are anathema.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 17, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> I believe Jude and Paul when they claim that the faith is "once and for all delivered" and that different gospels are anathema.



There are numerous examples of Old Testament laws that God said were PERMANENT (forever, for all future generations, for you and all your descendants, etc).  I think it says this somewhere near thirty different times if I remember correctly.  Christians believe that all of those "permanent" Old Testament laws have changed.


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## gtparts (Feb 17, 2012)

HawgJawl said:


> There are numerous examples of Old Testament laws that God said were PERMANENT (forever, for all future generations, for you and all your descendants, etc).  I think it says this somewhere near thirty different times if I remember correctly.  Christians believe that all of those "permanent" Old Testament laws have changed.



Why do you dredge up this OT observation as though it was the last word? Those laws were specifically given to the Jews. On that fact alone, they are not applicable (unless, of course, you are a Jew under the law and not under grace). 

When Christ said, "It is finished.", He had fulfilled all the Law, taken all the prescribed punishment for our sin. The "new" law, that He lived out as an example for us, was always the law, love God and love others. The law is no more complcated than that.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 17, 2012)

HawgJawl said:


> All through the Old Testament, God's rules changed as society changed.  Why do you believe that it can no longer change?



This is a failure to understand. See Mat. 5:17 ff.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 17, 2012)

Was the law about homosexuality and women preachers fulfilled by Jesus? This is an honest question as I also have a hard time figuring out which OT laws to abide by. I hope the one about shellfish has been fulfilled as I love me some shrimps.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Was the law about homosexuality and women preachers fulfilled by Jesus? This is an honest question as I also have a hard time figuring out which OT laws to abide by. I hope the one about shellfish has been fulfilled as I love me some shrimps.



You mean 'skrimps' dontcha? lol

I'd stick to the 10 commandments in the OT and tithing, that's just me. God gives us an option on tithing...."if you will".....

There is no difference in homosexuality, if it's deemed a sin...Jesus can forgive for that, not change it from a sin to being ok...He can cover that with His blood though...doesn't mean it isn't a sin.

I believe women preachers should still have a headship of a man. Say like Joyce Meyers, she has a pastor that is her headship....but I believe she is a teacher and not a preacher. If you'll see who Paul uses in the NT as teachers/preachers, many are women.

Sort of like this....the husband has headship over the wife...well I have no husband, so Jesus is my headship/husband...doesn't mean I can't preach the gospel.  We are all called to do that. I may not have a flock, but I've got a testimony/witness for Christ and feel I can teach some people something...male or female.
God let me go thru a lot in my life as a witness for His salvation and deliverance...and expressing that is my calling.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Was the law about homosexuality and women preachers fulfilled by Jesus? This is an honest question as I also have a hard time figuring out which OT laws to abide by. I hope the one about shellfish has been fulfilled as I love me some shrimps.



Man, you need to slow down.  Your flesh is running in circles so fast your spirit is getting dizzy.

Just an unsolicited observation.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 18, 2012)

I'm so dizzy I can't see, the Holy Spirit's gotta hold of me!


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