# opinions on joining the free masons.



## CrazyCatfish

i am currently in the process of joining the free mason's. i have a dear lifelong child hood friend standing on my door steps in tears this weekend when he learned of this news. he has decided that even though i am saved and baptised this is a fatal sin and i am going to - hatties..because of joining this group. he swears they are a satanic cult ravaged in sin metting in secret and destin to take over the world and to kill all black people. i cheerfully explained that this was my choice and something that i sought out on my own. i have a uncle who is a 54 yr mason and a another family friend that is a 40yr plus mason.both of which have nothing but good things to say and have extended how proud of me they are for joining. my entire reason for joining is i work in an office of me and 7 women... i go home to my wife and two cats... there is not alot of time in the day for men talk. hunting/fishing/ ga football / farting...etc. i am not trying to sound gay at all but i sometimes need the male companionship the brother hood of it all. just some guy time. i am not really sure if i am venting or asking here but just kind of want some others opinions as to what they think.. i have done extensive research on the subject and to no way at all do i see any wrong doing inside the free masons or anything to suggest they are devil worshipers or against the bible. in fact i know they pray before everything they do and an open bible is at every ceremony... can you tell me something to put my friend at ease!


----------



## centerpin fan

Here are some opinions:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=181614

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=417946

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=331753


----------



## rjcruiser

CrazyCatfish said:


> in fact i know they pray before everything they do and an open bible is at every ceremony... can you tell me something to put my friend at ease!



I know a lot of churches/pastors that do the same and are leading their congregation straight to hel!.

I think I'd get involved with the men at your church before joining a secret society...but that's just my opinion.


----------



## centerpin fan

CrazyCatfish said:


> ... my entire reason for joining is i work in an office of me and 7 women... i go home to my wife and two cats... there is not alot of time in the day for men talk. hunting/fishing/ ga football / farting...etc. i am not trying to sound gay at all but i sometimes need the male companionship the brother hood of it all.



There are no men at your church?  No small groups for men?  No men's Bible studies?


----------



## CrazyCatfish

no, most of the people in my church are older an do not do much other than sun day service. we tried to organize a softball team last year and only had 2 people sign up...


----------



## centerpin fan

I would consider finding a new church.


----------



## ryano

CrazyCatfish said:


> ..because of joining this group. he swears they are a satanic cult ravaged in sin metting in secret and destin to take over the world and to kill all black people.



No offense, but your friend is a moron but so are many others that believe this nonsense about Freemasonry.

Congratulations and best of luck on your journey. There are quiet a few of us Brothers here and we will be more than glad to help you anyway we can along your way.


----------



## CrazyCatfish

thanks ryano i appreciate that... i just cant understand why people hate folks that try so hard to help kids and have a little pancake breakfast every now and then. from everyone in the lodge i am joining that i have talked to, they seem like just awesome guys. very spiritual folks hard workers with some awesome life stories. i am excited and eager to be part of the brotherhood.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> I would consider finding a new church.


One with a good softball program.


----------



## rjcruiser

ryano said:


> No offense, but your friend is a moron but so are many others that believe this nonsense about Freemasonry.



So...are you saying we're all Moron's for suggesting him getting involved with the guys at his church rather than the guys at the lodge?




gemcgrew said:


> One with a good softball program.



Bingo.


----------



## swampstalker24

I dont see a problem with a person being a member of two cults at once.


----------



## ryano

:





rjcruiser said:


> So...are you saying we're all Moron's for suggesting him getting involved with the guys at his church rather than the guys at the lodge?



Do you mind pointing out where I said or even implied anything even close to that?

You will NOT bait me into this argument though. Sorry, but I have better things to do today and watching a bunch of nonsense unfold on this forum from people that have no idea or clue about Freemasonry is so 4 years ago.    

Good day and "God Bless".     Im done with this one.

To the new Brother reaching out, best of luck to you.  If I can help you, please feel free to get in touch with me.


----------



## rjcruiser

ryano said:


> Do you mind pointing out where I said or even implied anything even close to that?



Please see below.



ryano said:


> No offense, but your friend is a moron but so are many others that believe this nonsense about Freemasonry.


----------



## rjcruiser

CrazyCatfish said:


> no, most of the people in my church are older an do not do much other than sun day service. we tried to organize a softball team last year and only had 2 people sign up...



btw...crazy...my church doesn't have many men my age either...actually, none.  They're either 20-30 years older or 10 years younger.  So...I joined a Tennis league in a nearby town.  Play twice a week...with both Christians and non-Christians.  Yup...some of the guys cuss, smoke and drink...but then again, I figure I can be a light to them and get the exercise I need all at the same time.


----------



## Dana Young

I thought about joining the masons but GOD warned me not to and thats all the opinion I needed but we MORONs don't need much since we are not able to think for our selfs or trust what GOD tells us. Pray and ask GOD but be ready for him to show you different than what you want to hear. May GOD bless you.


----------



## CrazyCatfish

honestly, i wasn't trying to start a holy war.. i am a christian and am born again and baptised and washed in the blood. like i said i have researched and have not come across anything at all that has in any way showed me anything that makes the free masons out o be against the bible.. if anything it has been quite the opposite. no one i have spoken to including 40 and 50 yr masons have never steered me away. what i was actually looking for was advice to give my moron friend lol. to make him back off...and understand i am a christian i am saved and i am going to heaven and i am going to be a mason.


----------



## centerpin fan

CrazyCatfish said:


> like i said i have researched and have not come across anything at all that has in any way showed me anything that makes the free masons out o be against the bible..



Seriously?  You've never seen any negative comments about Freemasonry from Christians?

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Christians+Against+Freemasonry&FORM=QSRE5

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Are+the+Masons+Christian&FORM=R5FD

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Can+Christians+Be+Freemasons&FORM=R5FD5

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Christian+View+On+Masons&FORM=R5FD1

http://www.bing.com/search?q=Masons+and+Christianity&FORM=R5FD4


----------



## rjcruiser

CrazyCatfish said:


> what i was actually looking for was advice to give my moron friend lol. to make him back off...and understand i am a christian i am saved and i am going to heaven and i am going to be a mason.



Note to self.  Be careful asking for other's advice....you might just get the answer you weren't looking for.


----------



## gtparts

CC, 
My advice to you is quite simple.

Pour the energy, time, and the funds, that you would spend in Freemasonry, into your local church. Seems like your interest in Freemasons is a search for finding self-serving relationships, those that meet your needs. Grow your congregation by pouring those gifts from God into service for His kingdom, rather than a secular group with religious undertones. Masonry is temporal in nature even while doing good things. The blessings of serving God are eternal, now and forever. When good isn't good enough, seek the best.


----------



## hummdaddy

centerpin fan said:


> Seriously?  You've never seen any negative comments about Freemasonry from Christians?
> 
> http://www.bing.com/search?q=Christians+Against+Freemasonry&FORM=QSRE5
> 
> http://www.bing.com/search?q=Are+the+Masons+Christian&FORM=R5FD
> 
> http://www.bing.com/search?q=Can+Christians+Be+Freemasons&FORM=R5FD5
> 
> http://www.bing.com/search?q=Christian+View+On+Masons&FORM=R5FD1
> 
> http://www.bing.com/search?q=Masons+and+Christianity&FORM=R5FD4




lets say  truly conservative christians think everything is evil ,and out to get them...it's all about the devil and his evil ways of deception, and lies to take down Christianity

there sure are lots of christians that are masons


----------



## Artfuldodger

What about joining a club with fellow Christians like the VFW, Jaycees, Lions,  Elks, Moose, or Knights of Columbus. Just keep in mind that some of those clubs play bingo(gambling).

What I don't agree with about the Masons is that they allow Jews, Muslims, & Hindus to join but not Atheist as if believing in any God is the same as in believing  in God.


----------



## bigdawg25

Artfuldodger said:


> What about joining a club with fellow Christians like the VFW, Jaycees, Lions,  Elks, Moose, or* Knights of Columbus*. Just keep in mind that some of those clubs play bingo(gambling).
> 
> What I don't agree with about the Masons is that they allow Jews, Muslims, & Hindus to join but not Atheist as if believing in any God is the same as in believing  in God.



he cant become member of knight of columbus if he isnt a catholic. 

to the OP, the reasons you gave to join a freemasons sounded more like you need new friends to do stuff with which is a simple problem to fix by joining new church, or join a tennis team/hunting club/pick up soccer etc. I dont know if it conflicts with religion, but if I had even a grain of doubt, then I would steer clear of it and find something else to do. All of this depends on what you actually believe in, because its your personal choices which you have to live with forever.


----------



## ultramag

I am a mason..and I am a Christian...some people bash the masonic lodge and they don't have a clue what they are talking about


----------



## Artfuldodger

bigdawg25 said:


> he cant become member of knight of columbus if he isnt a catholic.



Maybe the Protestants could start the "Knights of Luther" as an alternative. You can only join if you are a Protestant. I was in the Royal Ambassadors for awhile.


----------



## gemcgrew

ultramag said:


> I am a mason..and I am a Christian...some people bash the masonic lodge and they don't have a clue what they are talking about


Please, tell us all about it.


----------



## bigdawg25

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe the Protestants could start the "Knights of Luther" as an alternative. You can only join if you are a Protestant. I was in the Royal Ambassadors for awhile.



well I think as a society we are too divided as it is, and last thing we need is more division of society on denominational lines. this organizations were in some part created due to history, and some of the stuff they do is a relic of history.

 I think they had started the knights of columbus because catholics werent admitted in many of the organizations, and catholic church debarred members who join freemasons, I might be wrong though. I dont know much about royal ambassadors, were they similar to masons?


----------



## Artfuldodger

ultramag said:


> I am a mason..and I am a Christian...some people bash the masonic lodge and they don't have a clue what they are talking about



I realize you can only tell so much but is it true you only have to believe in the Great Architect Of The Universe and this God could be any God as the member sees fit? I would agree that in America most would see this Great Architect as the Christian God but a belief in the Christian God isn't required to join the Masons. 
I would like to add that the Boy Scouts hold the same attitude about God as the Masons and that neither is a Christian organization. That being said neither is the VFW, Lions Club, or Jaycees.


----------



## Artfuldodger

bigdawg25 said:


> I dont know much about royal ambassadors, were they similar to masons?



Not really just my attempt at humor. The Royal Ambassadors  is a Baptist missions discipleship organization for boys.  We mostly had meetings, played games and went on camping trips. Similar to the Boy Scouts but based on a belief in Jesus, with the motto being "we are ambassadors for Christ."


----------



## Sargent

I wonder how many anti-masons were in fraternities in college....


----------



## Carp

ultramag said:


> I am a mason..and I am a Christian...some people bash the masonic lodge and they don't have a clue what they are talking about



What he said. We have a big old King James right in the middle of my lodge. Go figure......


----------



## ultramag

Carp said:


> What he said. We have a big old King James right in the middle of my lodge. Go figure......



Yes sir...that is correct


----------



## ultramag

gemcgrew said:


> Please, tell us all about it.



Nope..I know what its about and my brothers on here know..all I am saying is..I would not be a member of any organization that went against my beliefs or was a "cult". As some of you like to call masonry...that's all for now..I'm busy turkey hunting


----------



## rjcruiser

Carp said:


> What he said. We have a big old King James right in the middle of my lodge. Go figure......





ultramag said:


> Yes sir...that is correct




Does having a "big old King James" Bible in the middle of the meeting place make a club or organization somehow "christian?"


----------



## NE GA Pappy

rjcruiser said:


> Does having a "big old King James" Bible in the middle of the meeting place make a club or organization somehow "christian?"



NOPE.  They have bibles in the drawer are the hotels where the prositutes go every night too.


----------



## ultramag

I tell you what...y'all just carry on thinking what you want to think..I used to enjoy this form when it was Woody's..every single thread no matter what everyone wants to argue and cut someone down..I don't have to prove anything.. I have been washed in the blood..I know where I am going when I die..and there is only one judge..and I will stand before him


----------



## gemcgrew

ultramag said:


> I tell you what...y'all just carry on thinking what you want to think..


Again, enlighten us. Why the secrecy?


----------



## ultramag

gemcgrew said:


> Again, enlighten us. Why the secrecy?



Can't tell you..its a secret


----------



## gemcgrew

ultramag said:


> Can't tell you..its a secret


Before I relocated to Texas, my place of business was across the parking lot from a lodge. They had removed the windows and bricked the openings. I did some work on their building and at no charge to them. Some encouraged me to join, with promises of more opportunity. I did not want to be associated with the men who presented themselves in the parking lot.


----------



## ryano

ultramag said:


> I tell you what...y'all just carry on thinking what you want to think..I used to enjoy this form when it was Woody's..every single thread no matter what everyone wants to argue and cut someone down..I don't have to prove anything.. I have been washed in the blood..I know where I am going when I die..and there is only one judge..and I will stand before him



AMEN Brother!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## ryano

gemcgrew said:


> Some encouraged me to join



Im really surprised at this because that is just not the way it works in a true Lodge of F&AM.


----------



## bigdawg25

Artfuldodger said:


> Not really just my attempt at humor. The Royal Ambassadors  is a Baptist missions discipleship organization for boys.  We mostly had meetings, played games and went on camping trips. Similar to the Boy Scouts but based on a belief in Jesus, with the motto being "we are ambassadors for Christ."



lol ok. I have never been part of any such organizations. My grandpa always says that never do something which you dont fully understand about, and freemasons and other such secret societies by their basic nature dont have much "official" info out in the open, and that itself keeps me away from such things.


----------



## gemcgrew

ryano said:


> Im really surprised at this because that is just not the way it works in a true Lodge of F&AM.


No idea. Perhaps it depends on what a potential member can bring to the table. If I remember correctly, they told me that one of them needs to have known me at least a year. Perhaps sharing a parking lot would suffice. I don't know. I never considered joining, it was not an option for me.


----------



## Artfuldodger

bigdawg25 said:


> lol ok. I have never been part of any such organizations. My grandpa always says that never do something which you dont fully understand about, and freemasons and other such secret societies by their basic nature dont have much "official" info out in the open, and that itself keeps me away from such things.



The only problem with the secrecy is you only get to know certain secrets according to your degree in the hierachy. In other words you have no way of knowing the mission of the organization until you are at a higher degree.


----------



## rjcruiser

ultramag said:


> I tell you what...y'all just carry on thinking what you want to think..I used to enjoy this form when it was Woody's..every single thread no matter what everyone wants to argue and cut someone down..I don't have to prove anything.. I have been washed in the blood..I know where I am going when I die..and there is only one judge..and I will stand before him



Last time I checked...this form (sic) is still Woody's even though he is no longer here on this earth running this website.

Also, I don't see where anyone is cutting anyone down (with the exception of the Free Mason's in this thread calling people who question their activities Morons).


But like others on here have asked...why the secrecy?  If it is something that is so great, why not shout from the rooftops?


----------



## ultramag

Anyone that wants to know has to be accepted into the lodge and go thru the 3 degrees and become a master mason


----------



## centerpin fan

OK, I was just poking around here:

http://scottishrite.org/

... and noticed The Mission:


_"It is the mission of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, SJ, to improve its members and enhance the communities in which they live by teaching and emulating the principles of Brotherly Love, Tolerance, Charity, and Truth while actively embracing high social, moral, and spiritual values including fellowship, compassion, and dedication to God, family and country."_


Is there anything in that mission that can't be accomplished in your local church?


----------



## rjcruiser

ultramag said:


> Anyone that wants to know has to be accepted into the lodge and go thru the 3 degrees and become a master mason



What are the 3 degrees?

Again, why the secrecy?  I guess I'm just a skeptical person...don't like things that happen in secret.  Kinda like I don't trust the .gov because of all the secret stuff as well.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> OK, I was just poking around here:
> 
> http://scottishrite.org/
> 
> ... and noticed The Mission:
> 
> 
> _"It is the mission of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, SJ, to improve its members and enhance the communities in which they live by teaching and emulating the principles of Brotherly Love, Tolerance, Charity, and Truth while actively embracing high social, moral, and spiritual values including fellowship, compassion, and dedication to God, family and country."_
> 
> 
> Is there anything in that mission that can't be accomplished in your local church?



No, but in their defence, is there anything wrong with that mission? Does it have to be Church affiliated to be good?


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> No, but in their defence, is there anything wrong with that mission?



Absolutely nothing wrong with the mission.

My point is this:  leaving the "It's a cult/No, it's not" debate aside, why would a Christian want to join?  Based on "The Mission", I don't see what Masonry offers that my church does not.


----------



## ryano

rjcruiser said:


> (with the exception of the Free Mason's in this thread calling people who question their activities Morons).



Excuse me?       What I SAID was that anyone that believes that Freemasons are "a satanic cult that is trying to take over the world and kill all blacks" is a moron.  That is just foolishness and not true at all and yes, without a doubt, I believe anyone that thinks that is a Moron. 

Im sorry if you took offense to that and it certainly wasnt aimed at YOU nor anyone else in this thread.  

And no, this is NOT the Woodys that Ultramag and most of us that have been around 10 years or more use to know. Far from it in fact.


----------



## Mako22

Why a saved person would want to join a secret order of wanna be do-gooders I have no idea. I was asked to join years ago but the Holy Spirit wouldn't let me and I have never regretted it. BTW I have never met one who didn't have pride problems and I have never met one I really thought was saved.


----------



## ryano

Woodsman69 said:


> Why a saved person would want to join a secret order of wanna be do-gooders I have no idea. I was asked to join years ago but the Holy Spirit wouldn't let me and I have never regretted it. BTW I have never met one who didn't have pride problems and I have never met one I really thought was saved.



First of all, its none of your business who you THINK is saved and who isnt saved. That is Gods decision to make and NOT for you to Judge.  You dont read the Bible very much do you? 

Second, you wanna call the Masons a bunch of "wanna be do gooders" and act like you are above them yet post such foolishness and back biting bitterness such as this?      What a joke! 

Third, if you were asked by a Mason to join the Lodge, he wasnt a real Mason which seriously makes me doubt you were ever asked in the first place.

But most of all, I am ashamed that you call yourself a Christian that is lead by the Holy Spirit.  Judgemental, hypocritical "Christians" such as yourself make me and most everyone else watching you (especially the lost) want to puke just to be honest with you.   

Good day


----------



## Doe Master

Carp said:


> What he said. We have a big old King James right in the middle of my lodge. Go figure......



Many peoples homes have a big King James Bible opend on the table..... does that mean they are Christians or just want to make it look that way?

 Just because one has a Bible in the house doesn't mean much to be honest.


----------



## ryano

Doe Master said:


> Just because one has a Bible in the house doesn't mean much to be honest.



Just because one calls himself a Christian doesnt mean much to be honest either. 

If I werent already saved and didnt know any better, I would want no part of Christianity as displayed by many that claim to be such.  I try not to paint with such a broad brush though and try not to group ALL Christians because of the actions of few.

But according to some very closed minded "know it all" individuals here, one cant be a Christian AND a Mason    One even claims to know who he thinks is saved and who isnt!  WOW!  JUST WOW!!!!!!!!!  I have heard it ALL now! 

Im glad ONLY God knows my heart.....Certainly not some anonymous talking heads on a message forum that pretend to know about stuff they really dont have a clue about.

I know without a shadow of doubt where Im going when I die.


----------



## Timberman

Congrats on your decision Catfish.


----------



## centerpin fan

centerpin fan said:


> _"It is the mission of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, SJ, to improve its members and enhance the communities in which they live by teaching and emulating the principles of Brotherly Love, Tolerance, Charity, and Truth while actively embracing high social, moral, and spiritual values including fellowship, compassion, and dedication to God, family and country."_
> 
> 
> Is there anything in that mission that can't be accomplished in your local church?






centerpin fan said:


> ... leaving the "It's a cult/No, it's not" debate aside, why would a Christian want to join?  Based on "The Mission", I don't see what Masonry offers that my church does not.




Anybody want to take a stab at this?  It's not a trick question.


----------



## gemcgrew

ryano said:


> Judgemental, hypocritical "Christians" such as yourself make me and most everyone else watching you (especially the lost) want to puke just to be honest with you.
> 
> Good day



Is it not also hypocritical to judge him for judging you?


----------



## Artfuldodger

One day all it takes is God's grace and faith in Jesus. The next day we'll throw in a belief in the Trinity as a requirement. 
A week later no homosexuals, and finally no Masons.


----------



## bigdawg25

ok I noticing that some of masons here think they are being prejudiced and judged by some others on here so let me just say that I am definitely not trying to judge you guys. However, I'll ask a honest question because I have been curious about it for years and never felt comfortable to ask it to few of acquaintances who are masons, so I'll just ask it here:

if masons does all the good stuff they talk about, then why do they require this level of secrecy if that's all they do? I mean 400 yrs ago I see why secrecy was needed because of the crackdown from the very powerful catholic church then, but dont you think its unneeded in this day and age?


----------



## bigdawg25

Artfuldodger said:


> One day all it takes is God's grace and faith in Jesus. The next day we'll throw in a belief in the Trinity as a requirement.
> A week later no homosexuals, and *finally no Masons.*



definately. I am not denying that masons historically got pretty bad rep by the powers who were running the show at catholic church in middle ages. But then again, I truly dont see any present day catholic who can condone the action of their church in middle ages, and pretty much everyone will see the excesses and corruption in those days.

My point is that masons are not helping their cause by keeping the secrecy which leads to skeptical people like me to think that maybe there could be a small percentage of truth in what mason detractors say.


----------



## dawg2

holy cow...


----------



## Artfuldodger

The secrecy could be part of the New World Order that only a few in the organization know about or it could just be part of their game. What sets a club apart from the rest of society is being different and inclusive. You can't just let everyone join or it's not a club. The initiation, degrees, oaths, and secrets could just be for fun and make it interesting with no real purpose whatsoever like the game dungeons & dragons. 
When I  was in the Royal Ambassadors as a boy we had levels/degrees/ranks  such as page, squire, & knight and other shields. We realized we weren't real knights with sheilds. It was part of the game.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

I know a few Masons and they are average respectable people. I trust that during the process, that if you come across something that contridicts your faith and values, that you will be man enough to politely and respectfully bow out. Maybe you could tell us what goes on


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> One day all it takes is God's grace and faith in Jesus. The next day we'll throw in a belief in the Trinity as a requirement.
> A week later no homosexuals, and finally no Masons.





I think the thief on the cross fit all of those requirements.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> One with a good softball program.



Men minister better when sports are involved.... Gives them 'alone' time with each other.


----------



## mtnwoman

dawg2 said:


> holy cow...





kill that cow and feed the children..


----------



## Ronnie T

I say join the group.  If it becomes a blessing to you, then enjoy yourself.  If it does the opposite, say goodbye.


----------



## Carp

Doe Master said:


> Many peoples homes have a big King James Bible opend on the table..... does that mean they are Christians or just want to make it look that way?
> 
> Just because one has a Bible in the house doesn't mean much to be honest.



You don't have to be a Christian to be a Mason. You can be of any faith. You must believe in God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> What are the 3 degrees?QUOTE]
> 
> The third degree of Freemasonry and the rigorous procedures to advance to that level.
> 
> The questioning is very intense. We might have had this performed on us by our wives if we come in too late.


----------



## Carp

Everyone has their own opinion on Masons and they have been outlawed,  suppressed, persecuted or killed throughout history by several world leaders. You may recognize a few. Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, all Communist countries during the Cold War and Saddam Hussein.


----------



## CrazyCatfish

what i found: 
"It is the mission of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, SJ, to improve its members and enhance the communities in which they live by teaching and emulating the principles of Brotherly Love, Tolerance, Charity, and Truth while actively embracing high social, moral, and spiritual values including fellowship, compassion, and dedication to God, family and country."

folks that is enough for me!!!! i am in---all in!


----------



## centerpin fan

centerpin fan said:


> "It is the mission of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, SJ, to improve its members and enhance the communities in which they live by teaching and emulating the principles of Brotherly Love, Tolerance, Charity, and Truth while actively embracing high social, moral, and spiritual values including fellowship, compassion, and dedication to God, family and country."
> 
> 
> Is there anything in that mission that can't be accomplished in your local church?






centerpin fan said:


> ... leaving the "It's a cult/No, it's not" debate aside, why would a Christian want to join? Based on "The Mission", I don't see what Masonry offers that my church does not. .






centerpin fan said:


> Anybody want to take a stab at this?  It's not a trick question.




Anyone?  Anyone?


----------



## ultramag

CrazyCatfish said:


> what i found:
> "It is the mission of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, SJ, to improve its members and enhance the communities in which they live by teaching and emulating the principles of Brotherly Love, Tolerance, Charity, and Truth while actively embracing high social, moral, and spiritual values including fellowship, compassion, and dedication to God, family and country."
> 
> folks that is enough for me!!!! i am in---all in!



Good for you


----------



## Artfuldodger

quote: Is there anything in that mission that can't be accomplished in your local church?end quote:

You could say the same thing for the Lions Club, the Junior League, or many of the other clubs that support helping others. What is wrong with joining five different clubs even if they have a similar  mission of helping & giving as the Church? Let them have fun and play silly(to us) rites with strange initiations as long as they are building Hospitals or promote eye health.


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> You could say the same thing for the Lions Club, the Junior League, or many of the other clubs that support helping others.



... but I'm not.  I just asked what I thought was a pretty simple question.  There's no "gotcha" in there.  From my perspective, a Christian would look at The Mission and say, "That sounds great, guys, but my church has got all that covered."


----------



## JFS

centerpin fan said:


> Anyone?  Anyone?




OK, the idea that one can only join christian organizations is really creepy.  Maybe you should join the organization that best serves the goal you set out to achieve?   If that's part of your church fine, but it's major league cultish to try and limit people's interactions to just believers.


----------



## centerpin fan

JFS said:


> OK, the idea that one can only join christian organizations is really creepy... it's major league cultish to try and limit people's interactions to just believers.



Agreed, but I didn't say that.


----------



## centerpin fan

I was curious about what specific churches said about Freemasonry, so I did a little research.

*Roman Catholic*

Since the Church's claim to be the One True Church is ultimately founded and validated on the reality of the One True God, the opposing Masonic claim must ultimately derive from a perception of God that diametrically opposes the Church's faith. And so it does. Although Pope Leo does not explicitly speak of this essential opposition between Catholicism and masonry in terms of the First commandment of God –  "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have strange gods before me" –  surely the most radical and simplest way of situating this opposition is to say just this. The Masonic "God" is an idol. What the Masons really worship is Man –  or the Spirit who has deceived man from the beginning: the masked Spirit of Evil. This is the one primal reason why the Catholic Church has condemned, and will always condemn, Freemasonry. It is clearly sufficient to stand by itself as the only reason –  and in a most fundamental sense, as Leo XIII seems to imply, that is the only reason in fact. 

The case for the Catholic Church's condemnation of Freemasonry is open and clear. By its very nature as formulated in its philosophical statements and as lived in its historical experience, Masonry violates the First and Second Commandments of God. It worships not the One True God of revelation –  Father, Son, and Holy Spirit –  but a false god, symbolically transcendent but really immanent: the "god" called "Reason." And it invokes without adequate cause the Name of the One True God. After such a case as this, to cite the secrecies of initiation and the further secrecies of machination called "conspiracy" is not only anti-climactic, it is beside the point.

To conclude: we Catholic should now see the Masons more clearly for what they essentially are. They are the heirs (unwitting or otherwise is irrelevant) of a religion which purports to be the one religion of the one "God" –  and therefore the enemy, intrinsically and implacably so, of Catholicism. Freemasonry in its modern mode is "modernity" in the deepest (i.e., the philosophical and religious) sense of that term. It is, in a word, "Counterfeit Catholicism." For its "God" is the "Counterfeit God": the one who would be as God, the one who is the prince of this world, the one who is the Father of Lies.

http://www.olrl.org/doctrine/vsmasons.shtml


*Orthodox*

"Freemasonery is a mystery religion quite different, separate, and alien to the Christian faith." 

Even were it not for the pagan, syncretic ecumenical nature of Masonic dogmas, the religious rites of the Lodge make it impossible for a conscious and informed Orthodox Christian to participate in any slightest way. Orthodox means not only "right belief," but also "right worship" (pravoslavny is the Russian for "orthodox" and means, literally, "true praising"). Therefore, since right belief and right worship are virtually synonymous in Orthodoxy, it is never permissible for an Orthodox Christian to participate in non-Orthodox rellgious rites (and "Masonry is worship"--Pike, 219). When Orthodox Christians join a Masonic Lodge (or participate in the prayers and rites of other churches) they utterly compromise the purity of their witness, both theologically and liturgically. They betray the Faith as Judas betrayed Christ. They place Orthodoxy on the same level as non-Orthodox faiths, non Christian movements, and even the ancient pagan mystery religions--all of which Christ came in order to overthrow and destroy, not to somehow elevate to the same level of Truth ! 

http://www.roca.org/OA/70/70t.htm


*Southern Baptist*

While acknowledging the "many charitable endeavors" of Freemasonry, the pamphlet also expands on eight "tenets and teachings" of Freemasonry that were found to be "incompatible with Christianity" in a controversial report on Freemasonry approved by the Southern Baptist Convention in 1993.

1) "Freemasonry uses offensive, non-biblical, and blasphemous terms relating to God." 

2) "Freemasonry insists on the use of 'bloody oaths' or obligation, which are strictly forbidden by the Bible (cf. Matt 5:34-37)." 

3) "Freemasonry urges that occultic and/or pagan readings be used, and that their teachings be appropriated in interpreting such concepts as the Trinity."

4) "Freemasonry includes the Bible as part of the 'furniture of the lodge,' but only as an equal with non-Christian symbols and writings." 

5) "Freemasonry misuses the term 'light' to refer to moral "reformation" as a means to salvation."

6) "Freemasonry teaches that salvation may be attained by 'good works' and not through faith in Christ alone." 

7) "Freemasonry advocates in many of its writings the non-biblical teachings of universalism." 

8) "In some of its lodges, Freemasonry discriminates against non-whites."

The original report approved in 1993 -- which was criticized for being both too soft and too hard on Freemasonry -- noted both the incompatibilities and compatibilities of Freemasonry, Christianity and Southern Baptist doctrine. "We therefore recommend that consistent with our denomination's deep convictions regarding the priesthood of the believer and the autonomy of the local church, membership in a Masonic Order be a matter of personal conscience," the 1993 report summary stated. "Therefore, we exhort Southern Baptists to prayerfully and carefully evaluate Freemasonry in light of the Lordship of Christ, the teachings of the Scripture, and the findings of this report, as led by the Holy Spirit of God."

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=5959


*Other Protestant denominations*

There is a range of intensity among those Protestant denominations which discourage their congregants from joining Masonic lodges. Denominations that, in some form or other, discourage membership of Freemasons include the small Evangelical Lutheran Synod, to larger Protestant church bodies. Among Protestants opposed to Freemasonry are the Church of the Nazarene, Mennonites, The North American Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention, Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, Christian Reformed Church in North America, Church of the Brethren, Assemblies of God, Society of Friends (Quakers), Free Methodist church, Seventh-day Adventist Church, Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Free Church of Scotland, Baptist Union of Great Britain and Ireland, Presbyterian Church in America, Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland.  Most of these condemnations resulted from the work of church committees appointed only in recent decades. Many of these Protestant condemnations have never been enforced.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_Freemasonry#section_2


----------



## Artfuldodger

Do any of the churches have "Masons Anonymous" to help their members out?


----------



## JonesCoJason

Wow!  all of the haters who have only heard about Masonry from people who have heard bad things.  Talk about Gossip.  I am a Christian and believe in ONE GOD!  while I cannot speak as to the workings of other lodges I can say that if you do not believe in GOD then you will not be accepted.  not budda, not muhammed but GOD our Christian GOD.  that being said I would like to make a few points.

1. "We are a secret society". - if so we are doing a very poor job of it.  so many of you know a lot about something that is supposedly secret.  the biggest secret about freemasonry is that there is no secret
2. the uninformed people who will discourage you from joining or ridicule those that are active members are just that, uninformed.  we are a brotherhood of like mostly like minded men who strive to be better husbands, fathers, and Men.  we also pray to God at every meeting.  

all of this being said CrazyCatfish, good luck on your journey and if once you become a Master Mason you can come visit my lodge any time.  Sincerity Lodge#430 F&AM.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Many who participate in Freemasonry are initially confused by what they see and hear. They believe that Freemasonry requires a belief in God as a condition of membership.  They attempt to interpret lodge teachings, including Masonic teachings about the nature of the Masonic god,  through a Christian paradigm.  If a man understands the nature of God as revealed in the Scriptures and the nature of false gods as revealed in the teachings of pagan religions, he will have the basic information to know that the god of Freemasonry is not the God of the Bible. Freemasonry teaches that all pagan gods are the same Spirit  as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
When he goes into the Lodge, he will likely view what he sees through Christian glasses, or through a Christian paradigm. Many men mistakenly believe that Freemasonry is a Christian organization because they are misled by their Christian paradigm. They have no appropriate paradigm which allows them to accurately understand Freemasonry.

http://www.ephesians5-11.org/glasses.htm


----------



## centerpin fan

_"Catholic attorney John Salza once found himself inside a masonic hall, being asked to take off his wedding ring and crucifix as he swore an oath to be reborn as a Freemason. Although he knew in his heart that something was wrong, he did not leave right away. Over several years, he advanced to the 32nd degree in the Scottish Rite — a level that only a select group of masons are invited to. While he was told that masonry was compatible with Catholicism, he eventually could not reconcile the two and left the masons. In 2008, Salza wrote a basic, short treatise, “Why Catholics Cannot Be Masons,” (TAN Publishing) that addressed the serious conflicts that lay between Catholicism and Freemasonry (including the Shriners)."_


You can read the lengthy interview with Mr. Salza here:

http://www.sanctepater.com/2012/03/why-catholics-cant-be-masons.html


----------



## Artfuldodger

However, when we dig deeper into this so-called “God” requirement," there arises a more interesting point, namely that Freemasons do not require a potential candidate to explain or clarify what he means by “Supreme Being,” “God,” or what we eventually see referred to as “The Grand Architect of the Universe” (G.A.O.T.U) by Freemasons.  This is often explained to new candidates in person when they are interviewed by an investigative committee, typically consisting of three Master Masons. The committee asks the new candidate whether he believes in a Supreme Being, but before he answers the question they explain that he does not have to define or elaborate on that belief.  In other words, the meaning of "Supreme Being" is to be kept personal and private to the new candidate of Freemasonry. In fact, discussion of religion in most U.S. lodges is forbidden. 

http://www.examiner.com/article/do-you-have-to-believe-god-to-be-a-freemason


----------



## rjcruiser

Carp said:


> You don't have to be a Christian to be a Mason. You can be of any faith. You must believe in God.





JonesCoJason said:


> Wow!  all of the haters who have only heard about Masonry from people who have heard bad things.  Talk about Gossip.  I am a Christian and believe in ONE GOD!  while I cannot speak as to the workings of other lodges I can say that if you do not believe in GOD then you will not be accepted.  not budda, not muhammed but GOD our Christian GOD.  that being said I would like to make a few points.
> 
> 1. "We are a secret society". - if so we are doing a very poor job of it.  so many of you know a lot about something that is supposedly secret.  the biggest secret about freemasonry is that there is no secret
> 2. the uninformed people who will discourage you from joining or ridicule those that are active members are just that, uninformed.  we are a brotherhood of like mostly like minded men who strive to be better husbands, fathers, and Men.  we also pray to God at every meeting.
> 
> all of this being said CrazyCatfish, good luck on your journey and if once you become a Master Mason you can come visit my lodge any time.  Sincerity Lodge#430 F&AM.





Hmmm...these posts are diametrically opposed.

FreeMason Carp says you don't have to believe in the true God....just believe in god.


FreeMason JonesCoJason says that you have to believe in the true God of the Bible.


So...Carp/JonesCoJason...which is it?  Or is it up to the specific lodge as to what they believe?


----------



## Artfuldodger

JonesCoJason said:


> Wow!  all of the haters who have only heard about Masonry from people who have heard bad things.  Talk about Gossip.  I am a Christian and believe in ONE GOD!  while I cannot speak as to the workings of other lodges I can say that if you do not believe in GOD then you will not be accepted.  not budda, not muhammed but GOD our Christian GOD.  that being said I would like to make a few points.
> 
> 1. "We are a secret society". - if so we are doing a very poor job of it.  so many of you know a lot about something that is supposedly secret.  the biggest secret about freemasonry is that there is no secret
> 2. the uninformed people who will discourage you from joining or ridicule those that are active members are just that, uninformed.  we are a brotherhood of like mostly like minded men who strive to be better husbands, fathers, and Men.  we also pray to God at every meeting.
> 
> all of this being said CrazyCatfish, good luck on your journey and if once you become a Master Mason you can come visit my lodge any time.  Sincerity Lodge#430 F&AM.



I don't hate Freemasonry but I would like for candidates to be informed. I do not know about your lodge only what a couple of local members from a different lodge have told me. They said you only have to believe in a supreme being. They only ask new candidates if they believe in a supreme being. They call him "The Great Architect". They said he can be whomever you believe the supreme being to be. he doesn't have to be the God of Abraham.

I don't have a problem with your members having a different idea of who the supreme being is just inform candidates so they aren't confused. The main reason it doesn't matter is because Freemasonry isn't a religion. The Boy Scouts, another private club holds the same standard of only having to believe in a God and you don't see anyone giving them flak about it.
Again I don't hate freemasony and as I mentioned earlier ya'll do a great service helping people and the community.


----------



## David Parker

FM has been a secret to me up to this point.  I learned more about it in this thread than anything.  I always thought they were really skilled engineers and stuff, with the little compass/protractor symbol.  I figured they talked about productive ways to promote engineering.  But I also heard rumors about paganistic ritual.  Hey, I don't judge though.  Drink Strychnine, wrestle rattlesnakes, or run around nekid with a goat's head or whatever, I'm down with all that.  I'll sit right there and sip beers and have a big time with ya.  If you're doing something purely and positively, I've no issue.  If you want to hide what's inside, I've no issue there either.  Obviously though, it's human nature to want to know more about something that you aren't suppose to or allowed to.  That's why the FMs get so much static about their operation.  Live and let live always.


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> Do any of the churches have "Masons Anonymous" to help their members out?



Well, there's this:

http://www.emfj.org/


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Well, there's this:
> 
> http://www.emfj.org/



Their new birth ritual which emulates baptism reminds me of some of the Mormon Temple rituals I've read about.


----------



## bigdawg25

rjcruiser said:


> Hmmm...these posts are diametrically opposed.
> 
> FreeMason Carp says you don't have to believe in the true God....just believe in god.
> 
> 
> FreeMason JonesCoJason says that you have to believe in the true God of the Bible.
> 
> 
> So...Carp/JonesCoJason...which is it? * Or is it up to the specific lodge as to what they believe?*



I think Carp's version is more closer to what FM actually believe. I am pretty sure hindus, buddists etc have been FM in some other geographic regions (not sure about GA), and obviously they don't believe in christian God.


----------



## bigdawg25

centerpin fan said:


> I was curious about what specific churches said about Freemasonry, so I did a little research.
> 
> *Roman Catholic*
> 
> Since the Church's claim to be the One True Church is ultimately founded and validated on the reality of the One True God, the opposing Masonic claim must ultimately derive from a perception of God that diametrically opposes the Church's faith. And so it does. Although Pope Leo does not explicitly speak of this essential opposition between Catholicism and masonry in terms of the First commandment of God –  "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have strange gods before me" –  surely the most radical and simplest way of situating this opposition is to say just this. The Masonic "God" is an idol. What the Masons really worship is Man –  or the Spirit who has deceived man from the beginning: the masked Spirit of Evil. This is the one primal reason why the Catholic Church has condemned, and will always condemn, Freemasonry. It is clearly sufficient to stand by itself as the only reason –  and in a most fundamental sense, as Leo XIII seems to imply, that is the only reason in fact.
> 
> The case for the Catholic Church's condemnation of Freemasonry is open and clear. By its very nature as formulated in its philosophical statements and as lived in its historical experience, Masonry violates the First and Second Commandments of God. It worships not the One True God of revelation –  Father, Son, and Holy Spirit –  but a false god, symbolically transcendent but really immanent: the "god" called "Reason." And it invokes without adequate cause the Name of the One True God. After such a case as this, to cite the secrecies of initiation and the further secrecies of machination called "conspiracy" is not only anti-climactic, it is beside the point.
> 
> To conclude: we Catholic should now see the Masons more clearly for what they essentially are. They are the heirs (unwitting or otherwise is irrelevant) of a religion which purports to be the one religion of the one "God" –  and therefore the enemy, intrinsically and implacably so, of Catholicism. Freemasonry in its modern mode is "modernity" in the deepest (i.e., the philosophical and religious) sense of that term. It is, in a word, "Counterfeit Catholicism." For its "God" is the "Counterfeit God": the one who would be as God, the one who is the prince of this world, the one who is the Father of Lies.
> 
> http://www.olrl.org/doctrine/vsmasons.shtml



So essentially Catholic church dont like FM just because they believe in "one god". I mean this idea might be very controversial in 16th century, but now with so many secular associations and living in secular country, we get exposed to many other organizations with differing belief systems all the time, and I dont think that itself is a good enough reason to shun them in modern world. I have more issues with FM's secrecy and those pagan rituals which everyone rumor's about.


----------



## Artfuldodger

bigdawg25 said:


> So essentially Catholic church dont like FM just because they believe in "one god". I mean this idea might be very controversial in 16th century, but now with so many secular associations and living in secular country, we get exposed to many other organizations with differing belief systems all the time, and I dont think that itself is a good enough reason to shun them in modern world. I have more issues with FM's secrecy and those pagan rituals which everyone rumor's about.



And why do we shun  freemasonry for asking that you only have to believe in a supreme being but it is acceptable for the young Boy Scouts?
Why is it OK for either group to believe in another God other than the God of Abraham? Why is it even enough to believe in the God of Abraham if you don't believe in Jesus?
The answer is because neither club bills itself as a religious club. We must respect their right to exclude Atheist and black people. It is their club, they can do what they want. The Boy Scouts don't exclude blacks and I don't care whom a private club excludes. The Augusta National can exclude Christians and it would not bother me. My point is a private club can exclude or include whomever they want.
As a Christian, you would have to accept the idea that it is OK to co-exist with club members who aren't Christian. This would be true in Masonry, Scouting, Lions, American Legion, or any other secular club. 
You will have to decide if believing in any  God is better than believing in no God. Just remember Matthew 12:30
"Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.
Now we are getting into how this affects the rights of other religions and non-religions. Free masonry and the Boy Scouts make it very clear that you must believe in a God, not just "the God" that I personally believe in but a God. If you can justify that belief in any God is better than a belief in no God, then I would say you will not have a problem in Freemasonry or Scouting. That is between you and your "supreme being." 
The problem is when secular clubs incorporate religious rituals into their program. 
Then you must do something like this: Let us pray; Supreme Being, whomever you may be, depending on your  upbringing, we hope you give us guidance in  our club endeavors for the goodness of your entity: fill in the blank.

The Op asked this on a Christian/Jewish forum. If he asked on a secular forum I might give a different answer.


----------



## TaxPhd

Artfuldodger said:


> Their new birth ritual which emulates baptism reminds me of some of the Mormon Temple rituals I've read about.



Much of the Mormon temple ceremony is a *******ization of Masonic rites and symbolism.  Joseph Smith joined the masons, and later, the temple ceremony was "revealed" to him.  The early mormon church was actively involved with the Masons.


----------



## centerpin fan

TaxPhd said:


> Much of the Mormon temple ceremony is a *******ization of Masonic rites and symbolism.  Joseph Smith joined the masons, and later, the temple ceremony was "revealed" to him.  The early mormon church was actively involved with the Masons.


----------



## TaxPhd

centerpin fan said:


>



I don't get it. . .


----------



## centerpin fan

TaxPhd said:


> I don't get it. . .



I thought your comments on the relationship between Mormonism and Masonry were very interesting.


----------



## TaxPhd

centerpin fan said:


> I thought your comments on the relationship between Mormonism and Masonry were very interesting.



OK, now I get it.

The first time I saw the vid., I couldn't understand what he said.


----------



## bigdawg25

TaxPhd said:


> Much of the Mormon temple ceremony is a *******ization of Masonic rites and symbolism.  Joseph Smith joined the masons, and later, the temple ceremony was "revealed" to him.  The early mormon church was actively involved with the Masons.



this is a very interesting observation. I always thought there was uncanny similarity between mormon temples and FM but never knew that smith was a FM too.


----------



## TaxPhd

bigdawg25 said:


> this is a very interesting observation. I always thought there was uncanny similarity between mormon temples and FM but never knew that smith was a FM too.



There is a long and interesting history between the mormons and the masons.  Google will get you most anything you would like to know.  If you want clarification on anything, or need someone to fill in the blanks, let me know.

(FYI, I was an active member of the mormon church for 25 years before I was able to make my way out.)


----------



## Artfuldodger

TaxPhd said:


> OK, now I get it.
> 
> The first time I saw the vid., I couldn't understand what he said.



He was hard to understand in that video. The video is from an old TV Show called Rowan & Martin's Laugh-In. 
Arte Johnson, whose recurring characters included:

Wolfgang the German soldier – Wolfgang would comment on the previous gag by saying "Verrry interesting"
Sometimes after "verry interesting" he would add  "but shtupid!"

I also found the information "very interesting"


----------



## WSM

It's funny how people dislike what they don't understand. If any of you have had any dealings with Scottish Rite Children's Hospital or a Shriners Burn Center, you need to thank a Mason.


----------



## centerpin fan

WSM said:


> It's funny how people dislike what they don't understand. If any of you have had any dealings with Scottish Rite Children's Hospital or a Shriners Burn Center, you need to thank a Mason.



Nobody denies the "many charitable endeavors" of the Masons.


----------



## rjcruiser

WSM said:


> It's funny how people dislike what they don't understand. If any of you have had any dealings with Scottish Rite Children's Hospital or a Shriners Burn Center, you need to thank a Mason.



Never had to utilize either one....but a hearty Thank you to them for their contributions.  All that to say....many organizations donate time and money to great causes.

But....that doesn't make the organization a good one.


----------



## Lead Poison

Not doubting there are some good men in the Masons; however, I would not join an organization that is cloaked in such deep secrecy, one that also freely recognizes with equality any man's god other than the one true God....God the Father, his son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. 

This is just my personal opinion and respectfully offered.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Lead Poison said:


> Not doubting there are some good men in the Masons; however, I would not join an organization that is cloaked in such deep secrecy, one that also freely recognizes with equality any man's god other than the one true God....God the Father, his son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
> 
> This is just my personal opinion and respectfully offered.



Do you feel the same way about the Boy Scouts?


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you feel the same way about the Boy Scouts?



The Boy Scouts are not a secret society, and the Catholics, Orthodox, Southern Baptists, etc. have nothing but good to say about them.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> The Boy Scouts are not a secret society, and the Catholics, Orthodox, Southern Baptists, etc. have nothing but good to say about them.




I imagine the Boy Scouts have changed quite a bit through the years. I remember that on our camping trips, a preacher would arrive on Sundays to hold a service. I am curious if this is still the case.


----------



## dawg2

gemcgrew said:


> I imagine the Boy Scouts have changed quite a bit through the years. I remember that on our camping trips, a preacher would arrive on Sundays to hold a service. I am curious if this is still the case.



We had church service in the woods during our Boy Scout camp out last year.


----------



## JLow10

Congrats and good luck catfish!  Dont let those who are less informed take away from a great organization!  The parts that are secret have nothing to do with the great things that we do as an organization.  The secrets that we have are simply the way we initiate our members and conduct business at our regular communications!!  Yes we go to church and beleive in God.  Its sad that men who do such great things for kids and those less fortunate or things for their surrounding community based upon beleifs that date back to hundreds of centuries ago.  As someone said before if u enjoy great if not then thats fine too!  I for one know u will enjoy the lodge and invite u to join us at sincerity #430 in Gray anytime!


----------



## JLow10

Its sad that men who do such great things for kids and those less fortunate or things for their surrounding community are chastised by those who dont understand based upon beleifs that date back to hundreds of centuries ago.  This is what i meant.  Sorry posting from my cell!


----------



## centerpin fan

ultramag said:


> Can't tell you..its a secret





JonesCoJason said:


> the biggest secret about freemasonry is that there is no secret





JLow10 said:


> The parts that are secret have nothing to do with the great things that we do as an organization.  The secrets that we have are simply the way we initiate our members and conduct business at our regular communications!!



Y'all need to make up your minds.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> What are the 3 degrees?
> 
> Again, why the secrecy?  I guess I'm just a skeptical person...don't like things that happen in secret.  Kinda like I don't trust the .gov because of all the secret stuff as well.



My guess is that it's probably a secret handshake...a really cool secret handshake.

And maybe stylish, yet practical hats.


----------



## Nastytater

My PawPaw was a Mason. Built most of the houses around here.


----------



## Michael F. Gray

I do not belong to the Masons, and I'm not going to throw rocks at their glass house. I am an active Christian in my local Church. I've taught Sunday School, been Director of our Church Bus Ministry, and the Prison Ministry.I Pastored for seven years before being diagnosed with cancer. My point is I am to busy serving the Lord to give my time to such a group. If you are not to busy, perhaps you should get busy. I don't know your friend, but I'll give him credit for loving you enough to share his convictions. That's Love as we rarely see it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Lead Poison said:


> Not doubting there are some good men in the Masons; however, I would not join an organization that is cloaked in such deep secrecy, one that also freely recognizes with equality any man's god other than the one true God....God the Father, his son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
> 
> This is just my personal opinion and respectfully offered.



The Boy Scouts were referenced because they follow the same requirement of believing in a supreme being. This is often mentioned as a reason for Christians not to join Free Masonry as Lead Poison mentioned. 
Naturally your local troop or Masonic lodge will contain more Christians or all Christians than in India or Iran. There could be some mixed troops and lodges in bigger cities in the USA. We can't even agree on what Denominations are Christian anyway so even if it were a requirement you wouldn't know for sure. That might be why neither is a religious organization and are private.


----------



## JLow10

Centerpin fan u obviously have a problem with the freemasons!  Its easy to criticize that which u know nothing about.  The "charitable endeavors" that have been sparsely mentioned throughout this thread is what we are about and the sole reason that we are in existance!  Your opinion of being involved in the church is great but maybe u should exercise the teachings of the bible and stop being so judgemental?


----------



## Artfuldodger

A mason told me that masonry got started as a trade union of sorts. When a mason would show up on a jobsite to build a Temple or other building there was no way to know if he was truly a mason so they designed secret grips and messages known only to each other. From this origin it developed into the organization that it is today.
Do the Mason's still sell shoes?


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> Centerpin fan u obviously have a problem with the freemasons! ... Your opinion of being involved in the church is great but maybe u should exercise the teachings of the bible and stop being so judgemental?



Don't shoot the messenger.  I just quoted what churches have said about Freemasonry.  It's not my fault that what they say is negative.




JLow10 said:


> The "charitable endeavors" that have been sparsely mentioned throughout this thread is what we are about and the sole reason that we are in existance!



Then why the secrecy?  The Salvation Army does great charitable work without all the secrecy.


----------



## JLow10

As said before these secrets are things that we do in our meetings and upon initiation of new members.  Much like a pledge for a fraternity or sorority without the childish hazing that goes on.  Obviously u agree with the opinions of the various churches that have made blasphemous claims against a charitable organization or u wouldnt post them on a public forum.  If we were such a cult and taking over the world dont u think this would have been unceiled and discovered by now?  I mean the speculative masons such as the lodges that we know of today have been around since the 1700's.  just blows my mind that people really beleive that we would do the charitable things that we do to cover up the huge space ship we building!!!


----------



## canecutter01

Good for you!!


----------



## Artfuldodger

I can remember when Churches weren't political. You went to Church, learned about God, Jesus, and the Bible, and sometimes ate cold food outside covered with black pepper or gnats. I can't remember which but it was very tasty.
I think the Church of my youth was more positive and forgiving as Jesus was and today it is more on legalism. Churches didn't  always get it right and neither did I. 
In retrospect, I personally don't care what the Masons, Boy Scouts, United Nuwaubian Nation of Moors, or any other private group do or recruit, if it's within the laws of the government.
We must remember the United States is a melting pot of everything. We have to take the good with the bad. That's the way it was set up. It's the nature of the beast. Freedom is freedom. You can't set up a free society and then start declining freedom to certain private groups. I could name about 100 clubs or organizations I would never join but i'll fight for your right to join all of them.

If it will,it will and if it won't, it won't. Let your yeahs be yeah and your nays be nay. Man doesn't live by cornbread alone.


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> Obviously u agree with the opinions of the various churches that have made blasphemous claims against a charitable organization or u wouldnt post them on a public forum.



1)  Blasphemous?  Seriously?

2)  If I could find some positive church comments about Freemasonry I would've posted them ... but I couldn't.  If you can find some, post 'em.


----------



## JLow10

3. the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.
Directly from dictionary.com.  Sounds about right based upon the churches opinions u posted!  God is the only one that can judge is also what a lot of churches say correct?  Based upon your posts it appears the church is giving themselves the qaulity of God!  So blasphemous seems to be the correct word.  Problem is that some people in the church assume they are God and assume its ok to make the assumption that something that is secret is bad or evil.  I would say join a lodge and see but to be honest im not sure hold the qaulities to join the oldest and largest fraternity in the world!


----------



## Artfuldodger

Why Can't Christians Pray in Lodge?

Of course Christians can pray in Lodge! What they may not do is offer a specifically Christian prayer as Lodge prayer, any more than a Jew or Muslim may offer a prayer specific to his religion.

The reason for this is that it is the custom of Masonry to require all to participate in and assent to Lodge prayer. How can it be proper for a Christian to require non-Christians to assent to a prayer peculiar to his own religious belief? No Christian would assent to a prayer offered by a Jew or Muslim which essentially denied the doctrine of the Trinity. Because a Lodge acts in unison, prayers offered in Lodge must be of a nature that will be agreed to by all present.

To be sure, some Christians believe that only prayers given in a particularly Christian form are truly prayers. These people cannot become Freemasons because they do not subscribe to the principles of religious toleration required of Masons. But most Christians do not hold these exclusive beliefs and have no objections to the form of prayer offered in the Masonic Lodge. 

(This is the way all non-Christian groups and government entities should be set up. No hard feelings that way. Freedom is freedom.
We must be tolerant of others.)

There is nothing in Freemasonry that conflicts with most religions. However, Freemasonry does insist on religious tolerance.
(this is what the Boy Scouts teach. How can a private club teach anything different if it's not a religious based club?)
Neither  is the Rotary Club, although some Christians say they are all anti-Christian. 

http://web.mit.edu/dryfoo/Masonry/Questions/difficult.html


----------



## Artfuldodger

If your are comfortable sitting next to a Muslim or Hindu praying to his God while you pray to your God, then you will fit into Free Masonry or the Boy Scouts. If you don't feel comfortable doing this then don't join or allow your boys to join the scouts. Just don't bother the others who don't have a problem with it. What do you do at your workplace? Quit every time a Muslim or Atheist shows up? Or a Mormon, Jew, Catholic, or J.W.? You can practice religious tolerance and still be a Christian.


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> 3. the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.
> Directly from dictionary.com.  Sounds about right based upon the churches opinions u posted!  God is the only one that can judge is also what a lot of churches say correct?  Based upon your posts it appears the church is giving themselves the qaulity of God!  So blasphemous seems to be the correct word.  Problem is that some people in the church assume they are God and assume its ok to make the assumption that something that is secret is bad or evil.  I would say join a lodge and see but to be honest im not sure hold the qaulities to join the oldest and largest fraternity in the world!



It is obvious which one you have a higher opinion of.


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> Problem is that some people in the church assume they are God and assume its ok to make the assumption that something that is secret is bad or evil.



Did you read posts 82 and 87?


----------



## JLow10

Now your making opinions of my character?!  Do i go to church and believe in God and believe that he gave his only son for us?  Yes!  Do i believe that everyone that goes to church is there for the right reason?  No!  But to believe in God and be a good person do i have to go to church?  I dont believe so!  As a mason i know these things that u posted to be completely false!  So does that make me have less of an opinion about those churches?  Yes!  But that does not mean at any point do i hold masonry above my religious beliefs!!! To compare church to masonry is comparing apples to oranges!  My whole point in this rant is to say that masonry is a great organization to be apart of that in my opinion if u apply yourself to can make you a better man and surround you with men of like mind and standards!  With that being said it does not get in the way of your regular vocation so church is a great way to spend your time away from the lodge!  In fact it may even give a clearer mind to enhance your religious experience in the church!  As long ignorarnce by those who know nothing about masonry doesnt cloud your judment.  Your comments are like pouring water in a paperbag they just dont hold!!


----------



## JLow10

Again i am a mason and go to lodge every first and third thursday and have to been told to take off my wedding ring or advised to release my religious views other than the beleif in a supreme being!  He doesnt say what lodge he was nor if it was an f and am lodge so to me his comments are not a reflection the any masonic lodge i have been to which i have been to several within the continental united states!  My lodge even encourages the regular participation from friends and family at our cookouts and fundraisers so maybe he wasnt informed as to exactly what kind of lodge he found himself in!  Nor have I ever heard of a lodge being referred to as a "masonic hall"!  As for post 87 it appears to be yet another " masons bashing website" which i refuse to read as i have seen enough to make me as sick as the some of the ignorant comments posted on this thread!


----------



## JLow10

Never been told to take off my wedding band i mean!


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> Your comments are like pouring water in a paperbag they just dont hold!!



As I said, I'm just the messenger.  I have "commented" very little in this thread.


----------



## JLow10

Just chalk it up to say ur opinion is never gonna be changed until u stop googling why people hate the masons?  I dont see any posts about preists fondling young boys or pastors stealing money from the church and things such as that!  I know your defense there is going to be you have join the right church!  People are corrupt and wrong everywhere even church!  But based on my experiences masonry has been great to me and many others!


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> Just chalk it up to say ur opinion is never gonna be changed until u stop googling why people hate the masons?



I didn't Google "why people hate the masons".  I Googled "freemasonry christianity" and all that popped up was stuff like in post 17.




JLow10 said:


> I dont see any posts about preists fondling young boys or pastors stealing money from the church and things such as that!



Those are different topics, but feel free to start a thread.




JLow10 said:


> People are corrupt and wrong everywhere even church!



Agreed.


----------



## olcowman

JLow10 said:


> Never been told to take off my wedding band i mean!



I can't remember if anyone specifically told me to remove my ring... but thinking back I believe I did it anyway? It wasn't a big deal, it wasn't a symbolic gesture pertaining to any rebirth or an indication of my dedication to the lodge over my marriage. It was simply a part of the 'program' as outlined by those who came before me. This was before all the uproar about new world order, devil worshipping, taking over the world, etc. and I honestly felt nothing more than honored, and humbled that I was accepted into an organization with the history, integrity and fellowship that is truly the foundation of the Masons.

I have since read a great deal of the negative and derogatory info that circulates freely around the www... and I still feel exactly the same as the day I began the process. The secrecy associated with the lodge appears to be one of the 'big' targets by many of those against the craft. If one spends a little time on the web... it ain't too hard to figure out that the secret stuff isn't much of a secret anymore. And I been with them a pretty good while and they ain't asked me to swear allegiance to the devil or go out and kill nobody... yet? 

If folks is worried about Masons taking over the world or implementing a new world order and all... I wouldn't get to tore up over it. Seeing how alot of the lodges (the ones I am familiar with anyway), are largely populated by older fellers who spend most of their time selling smoked boston butts, peddling tickets for bbq chicken plates, and helping widder' ladies and orphans and such... it'll take them a while to get around to taking over the world I reckon.


----------



## JB0704

olcowman said:


> ..... it'll take them a while to get around to taking over the world I reckon.



That's a relief.  

I have no problems with the masons.  I don't know any, and I know nothing about them outside of the good charity work they do.

I would think any men's group 'secret rituals' are lame.  But that's just mho


----------



## olcowman

JB0704 said:


> That's a relief.
> 
> I have no problems with the masons.  I don't know any, and I know nothing about them outside of the good charity work they do.
> 
> I would think any men's group 'secret rituals' are lame.  But that's just mho



JB I kinda understand what you mean... and on the surface it may appear 'lame'? But from my standpoint, and this is solely my opinion here based on my own experience and isn't anything in particular I have garnered thru my membership. (so don't none of you brothers who are way on up yonder rip me a new one.) 

But as far as the secrets... there really ain't nothing astounding or earth shattering as many would lead you to believe. There are no spooky voodoo rituals or naked dancing or nothing... and as far as I know the only sacrifice associated with the lodge I belong to was by my own hand when I killed a barre' hog to bbq for a 4th of July fundraiser. (his name was Snoopy and I felt real bad about it anyhow) I ain't never felt uncomfortable in any sense with my membership nor the steps taken to attain it...

I would venture to guess that to a non-Mason, especially one with no roots in the organization or 'real interest' in becoming a member... that if somebody set down with you and revealed all the 'secret stuff' that you'd end up being pretty dissapointed? To the 'uninitiated' it would all seem pretty mundane... or maybe even 'lame'. It's mostly about tradition, and is a respectful nod to the origins of the Masons... anything other than that appears to me to be intended to aid fellow members across the globe in their services, charitable contributions, fundraising, comunications, etc. thru various signs, gestures, and probably some other things I don't know yet.

Many believe that Freemasonry can be traced all the way back to the Old Testament, placing the first lodge at King Solomon's temple... they been around a long time! My family has been Masons for generations, and I had the opportunity to see a lot of the good that get's done kinda behind the scenes and without fan fair. I reckon I am probably biased to some degree, but it is why I never thought of the group or it's secrets as lame or 'weird'. But like I said... I see where you are coming from.


----------



## rjcruiser

JLow10 said:


> Do i believe that everyone that goes to church is there for the right reason?  No!
> 
> So does that make me have less of an opinion about those churches?  Yes!





JLow10 said:


> Just chalk it up to say ur opinion is never gonna be changed until u stop googling why people hate the masons?  I dont see any posts about preists fondling young boys or pastors stealing money from the church and things such as that!  I know your defense there is going to be you have join the right church!  People are corrupt and wrong everywhere even church!




Judge not lest ye be judged





I've always wanted to quote scripture on here out of context


----------



## Milkman

CrazyCatfish said:


> i am currently in the process of joining the free mason's. i have a dear lifelong child hood friend standing on my door steps in tears this weekend when he learned of this news. he has decided that even though i am saved and baptised this is a fatal sin and i am going to - hatties..because of joining this group. he swears they are a satanic cult ravaged in sin metting in secret and destin to take over the world and to kill all black people. i cheerfully explained that this was my choice and something that i sought out on my own. i have a uncle who is a 54 yr mason and a another family friend that is a 40yr plus mason.both of which have nothing but good things to say and have extended how proud of me they are for joining. my entire reason for joining is i work in an office of me and 7 women... i go home to my wife and two cats... there is not alot of time in the day for men talk. hunting/fishing/ ga football / farting...etc. i am not trying to sound gay at all but i sometimes need the male companionship the brother hood of it all. just some guy time. i am not really sure if i am venting or asking here but just kind of want some others opinions as to what they think.. i have done extensive research on the subject and to no way at all do i see any wrong doing inside the free masons or anything to suggest they are devil worshipers or against the bible. in fact i know they pray before everything they do and an open bible is at every ceremony... can you tell me something to put my friend at ease!



I bet by now you are thinking "join anything but the GON forum" huh ??


----------



## JB0704

olcowman said:


> There are no spooky voodoo rituals or naked dancing or nothing... and as far as I know the only sacrifice associated with the lodge I belong to was by my own hand when I killed a barre' hog to bbq for a 4th of July fundraiser. (his name was Snoopy and I felt real bad about it anyhow)





I appreciate your clarifying the subject.  I would definitely fall in the uninitiated category, as I have never known a mason personally (think I worked with one a while).  I did watch some History Channel episode on the subject, not sure how accurate that was......



olcowman said:


> It's mostly about tradition, and is a respectful nod to the origins of the Masons... anything other than that appears to me to be intended to aid fellow members across the globe in their services, charitable contributions, fundraising, comunications, etc. thru various signs, gestures, and probably some other things I don't know yet.



I think most the things people do might seem wierd to folks who don't do them.  I work in the city, and my co-workers think I'm "lame" for going to the woods every weekend in pursuit of game......some might think I'm evil for it too, now I think about it.



olcowman said:


> Many believe that Freemasonry can be traced all the way back to the Old Testament, placing the first lodge at King Solomon's temple... they been around a long time! My family has been Masons for generations, and I had the opportunity to see a lot of the good that get's done kinda behind the scenes and without fan fair. I reckon I am probably biased to some degree, but it is why I never thought of the group or it's secrets as lame or 'weird'. But like I said... I see where you are coming from.





Could you clear something up for me?  I believe I read or saw something somewhere which indicated George Washington's first inauguration was a masonic ritual.....is that true?  I believe a lot of the symbols on money are masonic, but not really ever studying the subject, I have difficulty seperating truth from fiction.

I appreciate you passing the rest of the info along.  We all ahve perspective, I guess.  And I appreciate you understanding mine.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> I've always wanted to quote scripture on here out of context



Hmmm, maybe we should start a thread on that context (again) to kind-of get this sub-forum going again


----------



## Artfuldodger

Speaking of George Washington, Washington, DC was supposedly built by the Freemasons. The buildings are set up to from pentagons etc.

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/washington.html

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_washingtonDC05.htm

http://www.washingtondcschamberofsecrets.com/the-masonic-connection.html


----------



## olcowman

Artfuldodger said:


> Speaking of George Washington, Washington, DC was supposedly built by the Freemasons. The buildings are set up to from pentagons etc.
> 
> http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/washington.html
> 
> http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_washingtonDC05.htm
> 
> http://www.washingtondcschamberofsecrets.com/the-masonic-connection.html



I've seen the vids and read about the layout and construction in DC... and it is well known that many of our founding fathers were indeed Freemasons... I honestly have no idea concerning JBs question about George Washington.

I did catch something earlier in this thread that was quite true regarding the LDS (Mormons) and the Lodge... I dated a mormon gal in college and went to the newly built Atlanta temple when they hosted an open house and allowed 'heathens' to tour parts of the building. Well she filled me in on what I didn't get to see and probably told me more than she should have about some of their rituals (I was purty good-looking back in them days).... anyhow, it's real obvious Joseph Smith was a lodge member.


----------



## Artfuldodger

olcowman said:


> I've seen the vids and read about the layout and construction in DC... and it is well known that many of our founding fathers were indeed Freemasons... I honestly have no idea concerning JBs question about George Washington.
> 
> I did catch something earlier in this thread that was quite true regarding the LDS (Mormons) and the Lodge... I dated a mormon gal in college and went to the newly built Atlanta temple when they hosted an open house and allowed 'heathens' to tour parts of the building. Well she filled me in on what I didn't get to see and probably told me more than she should have about some of their rituals (I was purty good-looking back in them days).... anyhow, it's real obvious Joseph Smith was a lodge member.



There are lot's of similarities between Mormon Temples and Freemasonry. Your girlfriend was probably suprised at the info. you knew about her temple.
I think they wear aprons in their ceremonies. I have seen pictures of Washington wearing a Masonic apron. I don't know to what extent his Masonry played in his inauguration.


----------



## gemcgrew

"Do you see what this 32nd Degree ex-mason is saying ? He is saying that the basis of Freemasonry is paganism. Freemasonry he says is based on ancient Egyptian worship. Albert Pike was considered one of the best interpreters of all Masonic ritual. He ( 1809-1891 ) was born in Boston was a teacher and Brigadier General in the Civil War. Later, he was tried for treason. He held the highest office in Scottish Rite Masonry and rewrote all the Scottish rite rituals which still are practiced today. These rituals are pagan and occultic in design. Mr. Pike was an admitted Luciferian, believing that two co-equal Gods exist in the universe, Lucifer, the god of good and light, and Adonay, the Christian god, who rules evil and darkness. ( Occult Theocracy-Lady Queensborough The Christian Book Club of America ) (1)"

http://media.sermonaudio.com/mediapdf/122081610590.pdf


----------



## Russdaddy

Just join long enough to learn the location of all their treasure and then quit and dig it up....


----------



## Artfuldodger

If it's not a secret, I would like to know more about their old life before of being in darkness. Then a Temple ceremony/ritual where they are reborn into a new man and into the light.
I think they experience  a ritual death and being reborn as a new person.


----------



## Timberman




----------



## Artfuldodger

Timberman said:


>



Ask1. Ok, what is being in darkness & then in the light? Do you have a ritual where you go from an old man to a new man?  What truth are you searching?


----------



## HucK Finn

Artfuldodger said:


> Ask1. Ok, what is being in darkness & then in the light? Do you have a ritual where you go from an old man to a new man?  What truth are you searching?



Go to a lodge, and ask to be one, if found worthy, you will get your answers.


----------



## HucK Finn

Man I hate that I was late to this one, but if ignorance is bliss there are many on here that are "happy, happy, happy"

To the OP; pay no attention to the rumors or the the ignorance of people that claim they have _knowledge _about an organization _they dispairrage, because of it secrets_. Thats a paradox.

I suppose that if a family was to get together twice a month to discuss their business, and do not invite the world into their home....... then obviously they are evil ????? 

Good Luck and from one MM to a future EA, dont discuss Freemasonry on a forum such as this, that is just my advise.

Sincerity #430 F.&A.M.


----------



## kc65

many jews were spared the gas chambers by their nazi captors all because of a handshake.....


----------



## HucK Finn

rjcruiser said:


> Never had to utilize either one....but a hearty Thank you to them for their contributions.  All that to say....many organizations donate time and money to great causes.
> 
> But....that doesn't make the organization a good one.





Rj after reading some of your comments, I come to two conclusions... 1) you must have been the co-captain of your preschool debate team, with the sharp wit that you have
and 2) you are "HAPPY, HAPPY,HAPPY"... (refer to post #149)


----------



## gemcgrew

HucK Finn said:


> Man I hate that I was late to this one, but if ignorance is bliss there are many on here that are "happy, happy, happy"


Dispel the ignorance, tell us about the secrets of your organization.


----------



## HucK Finn

gemcgrew said:


> Dispel the ignorance, tell us about the secrets of your organization.



I do not have to reveal any secrets to dispel the level of ignorance displayed on this thread. 

but if you want to be spoon fed I will do so.... first I would like to point out that I in no way believe that you have an sincere interest in any real knowledge of FM.

I will say, no devil worship involved, no sacrifice, FM does not offer the promise of a Heaven, nor can salvation be achieved through a lodge.

If you really want to find out the secrets of FM, go to a lodge and ask.


----------



## gemcgrew

HucK Finn said:


> I do not have to reveal any secrets to dispel the level of ignorance displayed on this thread.
> 
> but if you want to be spoon fed I will do so.... first I would like to point out that I in no way believe that you have an sincere interest in any real knowledge of FM.
> 
> I will say, no devil worship involved, no sacrifice, FM does not offer the promise of a Heaven, nor can salvation be achieved through a lodge.
> 
> If you really want to find out the secrets of FM, go to a lodge and ask.


I take that you disagree with the following?

"You see, no claim is made for the sole authority of the Bible as the only Great Light. Fancy putting the Word of God on the same level with the words of fallible men, philosophers and false prophets. Jim Shaw was a 33rd Degree Scottish Rite Mason before he was gloriously delivered by the Saviour. Concerning the Bible Shaw says, Masonry, contrary to popular belief is NOT based on the Bible. Masonry is actually based on the Kabala ( Cabala) a medieval book of magic and mysticism. ( Jim Shaw and Tom McKenney, The Deadly Deception Freemasonry Exposed by One of Its Top Leaders Lafayette, LA: Huntington House, Inc 1988, p.128 )"

http://media.sermonaudio.com/mediapdf/122081610590.pdf


----------



## centerpin fan




----------



## Artfuldodger

I don't have an interest in joining but I do find it interesting as how the Mormon Church fits in with Freemasonry.
I'm interested in the rebirth ritual where a new candidate is reborn from an old man and into a new man, from darkness to light.


----------



## HucK Finn

gemcgrew said:


> I take that you disagree with the following?
> 
> "You see, no claim is made for the sole authority of the Bible as the only Great Light. Fancy putting the Word of God on the same level with the words of fallible men, philosophers and false prophets. Jim Shaw was a 33rd Degree Scottish Rite Mason before he was gloriously delivered by the Saviour. Concerning the Bible Shaw says, Masonry, contrary to popular belief is NOT based on the Bible. Masonry is actually based on the Kabala ( Cabala) a medieval book of magic and mysticism. ( Jim Shaw and Tom McKenney, The Deadly Deception Freemasonry Exposed by One of Its Top Leaders Lafayette, LA: Huntington House, Inc 1988, p.128 )"
> 
> http://media.sermonaudio.com/mediapdf/122081610590.pdf



I have not had time to browse over the link provided, but I will do so, even though its prolly just a bunch of propaganda. 

As for the excerpt, I assume is from the link provided. If you are asking me if I agree that is is "ok" for a Buddist to have their own version of their VSL (bible) or a Muslim lodge to have the Koran instead of the Christian bible then I would say yes, I agree that is "ok"....


----------



## HucK Finn

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't have an interest in joining but I do find it interesting as how the Mormon Church fits in with Freemasonry.
> I'm interested in the rebirth ritual where a new candidate is reborn from an old man and into a new man, from darkness to light.



No No:.......... It would have no meaning to you what so ever.


----------



## gemcgrew

HucK Finn said:


> As for the excerpt, I assume is from the link provided. If you are asking me if I agree that is is "ok" for a Buddist to have their own version of their VSL (bible) or a Muslim lodge to have the Koran instead of the Christian bible then I would say yes, I agree that is "ok"....


Are the Buddhist and Muslims, with their own VSL, considered brothers in your brotherhood?


----------



## HucK Finn

gemcgrew said:


> Are the Buddhist and Muslims, with their own VSL, considered brothers in your brotherhood?



I do not know any personally, but if they are F&AM then they are accepted in my brotherhood.

Just like when I was in the Marines, we accepted Buddist along with Hindus.... They were all Marines... based off your logic does that make the entire Marine Corp wrong for NOT discriminating against persons of other religions????


----------



## gemcgrew

HucK Finn said:


> I do not know any personally, but if they are F&AM then they are accepted in my brotherhood.


Do you view them as brothers in Christ? Or are you non-Christian?



HucK Finn said:


> Just like when I was in the Marines, we accepted Buddist along with Hindus.... They were all Marines... based off your logic does that make the entire Marine Corp wrong for NOT discriminating against persons of other religions????


How are you comparing the Marine Corp with Freemasonry? Doesn't the Marine Corp accept women as members?


----------



## HucK Finn

gemcgrew said:


> Do you view them as brothers in Christ? Or are you non-Christian?
> 
> 
> How are you comparing the Marine Corp with Freemasonry? Doesn't the Marine Corp accept women as members?



Well , if they are not Christian, then they would not be brothers in Christ. I would view them as a brother in my fraternity. But I guess Im different in that I am tolerant of other peoples customs and beliefs. 


Yes the Marines accept women...  Im not saying that they are exactly alike, but in the context of this thread, and the fact that I am both, I can say.... they are alike in that both are a brotherhood or a band of brothers.

Does your church accept women as deacons?

I would also like for you to answer my question... Is the Marines wrong for allowing any religion into its ranks? And since they do, are the Marines themselves wrong for being part of such and organization?


----------



## gemcgrew

HucK Finn said:


> Well , if they are not Christian, then they would not be brothers in Christ. I would view them as a brother in my fraternity. But I guess Im different in that I am tolerant of other peoples customs and beliefs.


How would you then handle 2 Corinthians 6:14?
"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"


----------



## gemcgrew

HucK Finn said:


> Does your church accept women as deacons?


No, nor Muslims or Buddhist.



HucK Finn said:


> I would also like for you to answer my question... Is the Marines wrong for allowing any religion into its ranks? And since they do, are the Marines themselves wrong for being part of such and organization?


You compared the Corp to Freemasonry, not I. I fail to see relevance.


----------



## HucK Finn

gemcgrew said:


> How would you then handle 2 Corinthians 6:14?
> "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"



I dont take every passage in the Bible at face value. 


I think the comparison in very relevant.

Being as Marines of ALL walks of life, have to fellowship among each other, and even depend on one another.... does that make it a sin or wrong to be part of a military that allows all religions into its ranks?

That is the main fault that you see with the FM.... they view any F&AM brother regardless of religion as an equal.


----------



## centerpin fan

No church that I'm aware of has a problem with the Marines.  Many churches have problems with the Masons.


----------



## gemcgrew

HucK Finn said:


> I dont take every passage in the Bible at face value.


Take your time with it. You can get back with me later.



HucK Finn said:


> I think the comparison in very relevant.
> 
> Being as Marines of ALL walks of life, have to fellowship among each other, and even depend on one another.... does that make it a sin or wrong to be part of a military that allows all religions into its ranks?


Again, you fail to establish how the Corp is like Freemasonry. I have already shown you where it is not. In either case, as a Christian, are we not to challenge the non-Christian to repent and embrace Christ as Lord and Savior? Is that why you are a Mason? To proclaim Truth to non-Christian members?


----------



## JonesCoJason

Obviously we have people who will not change their minds.  and that is ok.  can we just agree that Freemasonry is this?

1. a private fraternity.  if you want to know what goes on, then join.  if not then quit making assumptions and accusations about something you have no first hand knowledge of.

2. we are a benevolent organization, we have many fundraisers throughout the year so that we can send money to the Masonic Children Home of Georgia.  

3. just like any other organization (including churches) you will find undesirable people, I don't think that this can be avoided.  these people have no doubt negatively influenced many of your views of this organization. perhaps these same people are the reason many have a negative view of the church?

4. many of you have said that if we were really Christians that we would put all of our time and energy into church activities.  I don't think that you can find a place in the Holy Bible that says I should perform all of my charitable work through the Church. 

5. lets move on from this topic and agree to disagree.  I am a MM as are many of the other contributors to this thread.  we love our Lodges and Masonry, and as far as the people who know personally in this thread, we all love the Lord and our families.


----------



## HucK Finn

gemcgrew said:


> Take your time with it. You can get back with me later.
> 
> 
> Again, you fail to establish how the Corp is like Freemasonry. I have already shown you where it is not. In either case, as a Christian, are we not to challenge the non-Christian to repent and embrace Christ as Lord and Savior? Is that why you are a Mason? To proclaim Truth to non-Christian members?



I think I have very much established how one is similar to the other..... 

How does you bible verse pertain to a military that allows all religions to serve, sleep in the same squad bay as equals, fight in the same fighting hole as equals, eat in the same chow hall as equals?


----------



## JLow10

So let me understand!!!  With all your bible thumping are you trying to say that u cant befriend a person because they have different religious views?  Guess we might as well bring back segregation Huck?!!!


----------



## HucK Finn

centerpin fan said:


> No church that I'm aware of has a problem with the Marines.  Many churches have problems with the Masons.



Westboro Baptist Church maybe.........


----------



## gemcgrew

HucK Finn said:


> I think I have very much established how one is similar to the other.....
> 
> How does you bible verse pertain to a military that allows all religions to serve, sleep in the same squad bay as equals, fight in the same fighting hole as equals, eat in the same chow hall as equals?


Again, where is the similarity? Does Freemasonry allow all religions to serve, fight in the same fighting hole as equals, eat in the same chow hall as equals?

Is Freemasonry a military organization?


----------



## gemcgrew

JLow10 said:


> So let me understand!!!  With all your bible thumping are you trying to say that u cant befriend a person because they have different religious views?  Guess we might as well bring back segregation Huck?!!!


Try and keep up. Nobody is talking about befriending. We are discussing membership in a multi-religious brotherhood.


----------



## HucK Finn

gemcgrew said:


> Again, where is the similarity? Does Freemasonry allow all religions to serve, fight in the same fighting hole as equals, eat in the same chow hall as equals?
> 
> Is Freemasonry a military organization?



They are similar in that ALL RELIGIONS ARE ACCEPTED IN THEIR RANKS AND ARE AS EQUALS. 

The Christian Sgt is held in no higher esteem than the Budist Sgt. 

The Christan Brother is held in no higher esteem than the Buddist Brother.

TO YOU.... is that wrong? Based off the bible verse you posted it would be. 

You have to see how they are similar.... not exactly alike, but similar in the fact that everybody regardless of religion are equal.


----------



## centerpin fan

HucK Finn said:


> Westboro Baptist Church maybe.........



The WBC is one crazy family.  They're Nickelodeon's version of the Manson family.


----------



## HucK Finn

gemcgrew said:


> Try and keep up. Nobody is talking about befriending. We are discussing membership in a multi-religious brotherhood.



No... you try to remember.... the bible verse you posted would not allow one to befriend or fellowship with anyone who is not a Christian.


----------



## HucK Finn

centerpin fan said:


> The WBC is one crazy family.  They're Nickelodeon's version of the Manson family.



Well, that was just one church off the top of my head.


----------



## HucK Finn

I feel confident that I have made my point.


----------



## JLow10

Thats all a fraternity is is a band of brothers or friends!


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> Thats all a fraternity is is a band of brothers or friends!



Just for the record, the Catholics, Orthodox, Baptists, etc. aren't claiming that Lambda Lambda Lambda are worshipping different gods.


----------



## gemcgrew

HucK Finn said:


> No... you try to remember.... the bible verse you posted would not allow one to befriend or fellowship with anyone who is not a Christian.


So are you now taking it at face value or not? In either case, I do not agree with your use. You have referred to Freemasonry as a "brotherhood" and this implies more than a casual civil encounter.


----------



## gemcgrew

HucK Finn said:


> They are similar in that ALL RELIGIONS ARE ACCEPTED IN THEIR RANKS AND ARE AS EQUALS.


Do you accept their god or gods as equal to the God of the Bible?


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> Just for the record, the Catholics, Orthodox, Baptists, etc. aren't claiming that Lambda Lambda Lambda are worshipping different gods.


Noted! 

It is interesting to me that there are Freemasons who profess to be Christian, yet in secrecy, withhold information from brothers in Christ. Information that apparently is valuable or important to them. Information that can only be obtained via membership in a lodge. I can't imagine withholding knowledge from a brother.


----------



## JLow10

Being my brother in christ has nothing to do with my being my masonic brother.  When it does yall will be the first i tell!!


----------



## JLow10

gemcgrew said:


> Noted!
> 
> It is interesting to me that there are Freemasons who profess to be Christian, yet in secrecy, withhold information from brothers in Christ. Information that apparently is valuable or important to them. Information that can only be obtained via membership in a lodge. I can't imagine withholding knowledge from a brother.



How much money i have in my bank account is valuable and important want me to tell u that too?


----------



## elfiii

dawg2 said:


> holy cow...



Now I remember why I never come in here.


----------



## gemcgrew

JLow10 said:


> How much money i have in my bank account is valuable and important want me to tell u that too?


Is that one of the Masonic secrets? 

I see that being relevant is not a prerequisite for lodge membership. I know this is but a small sampling of members, but a pattern is definitely taking shape.


----------



## jmharris23

Y'all remain cool..... No one is going to change the others mind....but if y'all want to continue to beat this dead horse have at it....as long as no rules get broken in the process


----------



## bigdawg25

centerpin fan said:


> Just for the record, the Catholics, Orthodox, Baptists, etc. aren't claiming that Lambda Lambda Lambda are *worshipping *different gods.



this word is extremely important. One can be friends with people from other religions, heck, you can be brothers too...

What's different from those organizations and FM is that religion doesnt play any part of those organizations, whereas for FM, everyone "worships" it, or so I am led to believe from what catholic church has been saying for last 400 yrs. Note that I didnt say I know that for sure, because FM happen to be a secret association, so I cant trust stuff read online.


----------



## centerpin fan

_The Secret History of Freemasonry_ is on The Military Channel right now.


----------



## HucK Finn

gemcgrew said:


> Do you accept their god or gods as equal to the God of the Bible?



I guess since you are stirring the conversation in another direction you have grasped my point and can offer no retort.  

When did we start comparing what religions Gods are equal to another?. 

This whole time we were talking about people of different religions being equal to one another. 

I'm sorry for beating a dead horse and I am fully aware that this thread will not change the opinion of anybody..... But still, I am a very proud to be a Freemason as well as what it stands for, and when I see people making ignorant extremely uninformed comments,.... Well I fell like I have to say something. 

It really amazes me how people fear the unknown. 

In closing I would like to know if anybody has ever been wronged, cheated, looked down on, or received any negative effect from a FM or ANY aspect of Freemasonry?   
With the accusations of evil doing and devil worship surely someone has been wronged by Freemasonry....


----------



## HucK Finn

centerpin fan said:


> _The Secret History of Freemasonry_ is on The Military Channel right now.



I do find that ironic, due to my comparison of the two earlier..


----------



## HucK Finn

bigdawg25 said:


> this word is extremely important. One can be friends with people from other religions, heck, you can be brothers too...
> 
> What's different from those organizations and FM is that religion doesnt play any part of those organizations, whereas for FM, everyone "worships" it, or so I am led to believe from what catholic church has been saying for last 400 yrs. Note that I didnt say I know that for sure, because FM happen to be a secret association, so I cant trust stuff read online.



Trust me as a FM when I tell you that no "worships" are involved.... I will not get into the history of the Catholic Church, but from what I know, there history does not make them a creditable source..... I mean at one time, you were going to  H. E. double hockey sticks, if you believed the world was round... According to the Catholic Church.


----------



## bigdawg25

HucK Finn said:


> Trust me as a FM when I tell you that *no "worships" are involved*.... I will not get into the history of the Catholic Church, but from what I know, there history does not make them a creditable source..... I mean at one time, you were going to  H. E. double hockey sticks, if you believed the world was round... According to the Catholic Church.



Well I am glad you finally told me what I was looking for. It took four some pages full of posts but no current FM was answering this question. 

I am not taking catholic church at face value; I just repeated what they have been saying for four centuries....I am never saying that what they said might have been prompted by financial or political reasons, its just that anytime I ask a FM abt "worships" taking place in lodges, they take a step back and lecture me on shriner hospital and their other philanthropic endeavors; and which, while being commendable, makes it look like a deflection from the original question.


----------



## centerpin fan

HucK Finn said:


> ..... I mean at one time, you were going to  H. E. double hockey sticks, if you believed the world was round... According to the Catholic Church.



Just because they were wrong then does not make them wrong on Freemasonry.  Besides, as I said before, I can't find any church that fully endorses FM.  At best, they kind of tolerate it.

BTW, this documentary is not exactly making you guys out to be a bunch of choirboys.


----------



## hobbs27

Im going to do a quick drive-by on this topic since it really doesn't interest me. Regardless what the Masonry does or stands for, the Shriners which are all Masons do an awesome job for children.I've participated in many Shriners benefit coonhunts in the past and have personally met some of the children and families directly affected by their charity. Not only did they fit amputee children with legs, they also kept them in a leg that fit as they grew.
 Folks...that leaves our churches lacking alot for what they could be doing. Thats my drive by    peace out!


----------



## Artfuldodger

I guess the FM's can't tell me the rebirth ritual so this might not be true. The new candidate is partially nude, this represents coming out from the old man/old condition and entering into another and new order, in which a different quality of light is communicated, another vesture is to be assumed and-ultimately-another life entered. They simulate dying and being reborn a new man. The ritual mimics the humble, unworthy and totally dependent state of the candidate as he is in darkness but will be shown the light. The new candidate dies and is reborn. The old man is no more. 
Freemasonry is about traveling from darkness to the light.(truth)


----------



## centerpin fan

centerpin fan said:


> BTW, this documentary is not exactly making you guys out to be a bunch of choirboys.



OK, in the end, they took it easy on you guys.  They showed an initiation ceremony:

"Worshipful Master, there is an alarm at the door."

"Attend to the alarm."

Etc.

... and showed the initiate confronted by Jubala, Jubalo and Jubalum.

They summed up by basically saying, "See, there's nothing sinister here.  It's just a well-funded boys' club for grown-ups."


----------



## JLow10

centerpin fan said:


> OK, in the end, they took it easy on you guys.  They showed an initiation ceremony:
> 
> "Worshipful Master, there is an alarm at the door."
> 
> "Attend to the alarm."
> 
> Etc.
> 
> ... and showed the initiate confronted by Jubala, Jubalo and Jubalum.
> 
> They summed up by basically saying, "See, there's nothing sinister here.  It's just a well-funded boys' club for grown-ups."



Well im glad to see that you took the time see a different aspect or opinion.  Not confirming what u saw or heard but again the things we do r none other than things passed down over time that mean a lot to us but not someone that is an FM!  No different from chief osceola throwing a spear in the middle of the field before an fsu football game or the clemson tigers rubbing howards rock.  Just traditions that we choose to keep secret from those who are not a member.


----------



## JLow10

gemcgrew said:


> Is that one of the Masonic secrets?
> 
> I see that being relevant is not a prerequisite for lodge membership. I know this is but a small sampling of members, but a pattern is definitely taking shape.



This is certainly not one of our secrets but im just showing u that its the same thing!  U are correct in saying that there no relevance in our secrets to U but to us they mean a lot more!  Maybe i should make my comments a little simpler so that they are easier to understand for u?


----------



## JLow10

Artfuldodger said:


> I guess the FM's can't tell me the rebirth ritual so this might not be true. The new candidate is partially nude, this represents coming out from the old man/old condition and entering into another and new order, in which a different quality of light is communicated, another vesture is to be assumed and-ultimately-another life entered. They simulate dying and being reborn a new man. The ritual mimics the humble, unworthy and totally dependent state of the candidate as he is in darkness but will be shown the light. The new candidate dies and is reborn. The old man is no more.
> Freemasonry is about traveling from darkness to the light.(truth)



Sorry no help for u man!  I will say that u sound like u have some interest so 2B1ASK1!


----------



## Artfuldodger

Let's compare the Freemasons, Marines(someone else's comparison), and the Boy Scouts(my favorite comparison) 
Freemasons can initiate any male who believes in a supreme being
Boy Scouts can initiate any male who believes in a supreme being
Marines can initiate males,females, atheist, gays, and people who believe in a supreme being.
Again I don't see a problem joining any of them. The first two are a private club. It's kinda hard to compare the Marines which is a government entity. If you were drafted, you couldn't use serving with Atheist or Hindus as an excuse not to serve. I don't see where there is a problem with allowing other religions in Freemasonry if you are OK with the Boy Scouts doing it. 
My concern with joining is not the Muslim brothers but the rituals & oaths which lead one to the Light or Truth. My idea of the Light or Truth is different from theirs. I would not feel comfortable going through rituals that would feel religious to me, even if they don't feel religious to you. A Freemason rebirth ritual would be too close to my real Christian rebirth for me to do the ritual. My Christian idea of the Light & truth doesn't concide with the Freemasons. It could just be a perception problem on my end as it is a secret. Since I don't know all the secrets, I would have a problem learning a few secrets as I progress in degrees, as the Freemason society sees fit that I know.


----------



## JLow10

Artfuldodger said:


> Let's compare the Freemasons, Marines(someone else's comparison), and the Boy Scouts(my favorite comparison)
> Freemasons can initiate any male who believes in a supreme being
> Boy Scouts can initiate any male who believes in a supreme being
> Marines can initiate males,females, atheist, gays, and people who believe in a supreme being.
> Again I don't see a problem joining any of them. The first two are a private club. It's kinda hard to compare the Marines which is a government entity. If you were drafted, you couldn't use serving with Atheist or Hindus as an excuse not to serve. I don't see where there is a problem with allowing other religions in Freemasonry if you are OK with the Boy Scouts doing it.
> My concern with joining is not the Muslim brothers but the rituals & oaths which lead one to the Light or Truth. My idea of the Light or Truth is different from theirs. I would not feel comfortable going through rituals that would feel religious to me, even if they don't feel religious to you. A Freemason rebirth ritual would be too close to my real Christian rebirth for me to do the ritual. My Christian idea of the Light & truth doesn't concide with the Freemasons. It could just be a perception problem on my end as it is a secret. Since I don't know all the secrets, I would have a problem learning a few secrets as I progress in degrees, as the Freemason society sees fit that I know.



This is the first opinion against joining the freemasons that i actually agree with.  If its not for its not for you.  Thank u for making an educated decision and not sighting the endless naysayers from centuries past.  I can full accept your decision not to join.  I do however want to respectfully let u know as said before any rituals or traditions that we have have nothing to do with influencing or taking away from your spiritual aspect of life!  Thank you artful!!!


----------



## Artfuldodger

JLow10 said:


> Sorry no help for u man!  I will say that u sound like u have some interest so 2B1ASK1!



Only from a Sociology/Religious standpoint. It sounds very interesting. I have family members and co workers in Freemasonry and other fraternities.  I find it interesting how some are against Freemasonry but are OK with the Boy Scouts. I find it interesting that gays, blacks & women are are excluded although I personally support the right of refusal of anyone. I also find it interesting the similarities of the Mormon Temple Rituals to the Freemasons. Also of interest is the New World Order, Illuminati, & Freemasonry and if there is a connection. 
Personally I would find it weird to do most of the initiation rituals of fraternities or Churches that would have me strip half naked, blindfold me, touch me, make pretend to die by pretending to cut my throat, hit me with a paddle(possibly electrified to shock), make me drink stuff, or humiliate me,etc. I'm not saying the FM's do all this, in fact I know they don't but others do. I personally find it childish and have never wanted any part of it. I have experienced initiations in 4-H, freshman High School, Navy snipes, Submarines, and other rites of passage. Most were minor but still stupid.


----------



## JLow10

Artfuldodger said:


> Only from a Sociology/Religious standpoint. It sounds very interesting. I have family members and co workers in Freemasonry and other fraternities.  I find it interesting how some are against Freemasonry but are OK with the Boy Scouts. I find it interesting that gays, blacks & women are are excluded although I personally support the right of refusal of anyone. I also find it interesting the similarities of the Mormon Temple Rituals to the Freemasons. Also of interest is the New World Order, Illuminati, & Freemasonry and if there is a connection.
> Personally I would find it weird to do most of the initiation rituals of fraternities or Churches that would have me strip half naked, blindfold me, touch me, make pretend to die by pretending to cut my throat, hit me with a paddle(possibly electrified to shock), make me drink stuff, or humiliate me,etc. I'm not saying the FM's do all this, in fact I know they don't but others do. I personally find it childish and have never wanted any part of it. I have experienced initiations in 4-H, freshman High School, Navy snipes, Submarines, and other rites of passage. Most were minor but still stupid.



To an extent i agree with!  I had the same issues before i joined and if not for some very good friends of mine i would have had no desire but i now very glad i did.  Different strokes for different folks i guess?


----------



## Artfuldodger

JLow10 said:


> This is the first opinion against joining the freemasons that i actually agree with.  If its not for its not for you.  Thank u for making an educated decision and not sighting the endless naysayers from centuries past.  I can full accept your decision not to join.  I do however want to respectfully let u know as said before any rituals or traditions that we have have nothing to do with influencing or taking away from your spiritual aspect of life!  Thank you artful!!!



I personally accept all people as equal: blacks, whites, women, men, gays, straights, hippies, rednecks, Democrats, Republicans, Hindus, Muslims, Atheist, and even Yankees.
I can break bread with anyone and feel it doesn't take away from my Christianity. I'll use the time to witness by being an example. 
Kinda like this man who was born of a virgin. He didn't exactly hang out with the right people or live like society thought he should. Love is love. Truth is truth.


----------



## Artfuldodger

JLow10 said:


> To an extent i agree with!  I had the same issues before i joined and if not for some very good friends of mine i would have had no desire but i now very glad i did.  Different strokes for different folks i guess?



I hope & pray that in our various journeys from the west to the east, that we are all square & prepared, as we all seek the truth & light.

Jesus himself will return in the Eastern sky. Amen to the Eastern sky.


----------



## JLow10

Artfuldodger said:


> I personally accept all people as equal: blacks, whites, women, men, gays, straights, hippies, rednecks, Democrats, Republicans, Hindus, Muslims, Atheist, and even Yankees.
> I can break bread with anyone and feel it doesn't take away from my Christianity. I'll use the time to witness by being an example.
> Kinda like this man who was born of a virgin. He didn't exactly hang out with the right people or live like society thought he should. Love is love. Truth is truth.



I personally feel the same way.  Have gay people in my family, very close black friends,  employed a muslim, and am fond of women.  That doesnt change when i am a mason or in lodge just the lodge as a whole doesnt allow women but we do offer eastern star which the women equivalent.  They even meet in some of the same lodges that masons use!


----------



## gemcgrew

HucK Finn said:


> I guess since you are stirring the conversation in another direction you have grasped my point and can offer no retort.


I think that I am about retorted out. 


HucK Finn said:


> When did we start comparing what religions Gods are equal to another?.


Probably when you said "They are similar in that ALL RELIGIONS ARE ACCEPTED IN THEIR RANKS AND ARE AS EQUALS."



HucK Finn said:


> I'm sorry for beating a dead horse and I am fully aware that this thread will not change the opinion of anybody..... But still, I am a very proud to be a Freemason as well as what it stands for, and when I see people making ignorant extremely uninformed comments,.... Well I fell like I have to say something.


I appreciate your input. You have been more talkative than most.


----------



## gemcgrew

JLow10 said:


> This is certainly not one of our secrets but im just showing u that its the same thing!  U are correct in saying that there no relevance in our secrets to U but to us they mean a lot more!  Maybe i should make my comments a little simpler so that they are easier to understand for u?


That would be awesome!


----------



## Milkman

CrazyCatfish said:


> i am currently in the process of joining the free mason's. i have a dear lifelong child hood friend standing on my door steps in tears this weekend when he learned of this news. he has decided that even though i am saved and baptised this is a fatal sin and i am going to - hatties..because of joining this group. he swears they are a satanic cult ravaged in sin metting in secret and destin to take over the world and to kill all black people. i cheerfully explained that this was my choice and something that i sought out on my own. i have a uncle who is a 54 yr mason and a another family friend that is a 40yr plus mason.both of which have nothing but good things to say and have extended how proud of me they are for joining. my entire reason for joining is i work in an office of me and 7 women... i go home to my wife and two cats... there is not alot of time in the day for men talk. hunting/fishing/ ga football / farting...etc. i am not trying to sound gay at all but i sometimes need the male companionship the brother hood of it all. just some guy time. i am not really sure if i am venting or asking here but just kind of want some others opinions as to what they think.. i have done extensive research on the subject and to no way at all do i see any wrong doing inside the free masons or anything to suggest they are devil worshipers or against the bible. in fact i know they pray before everything they do and an open bible is at every ceremony... can you tell me something to put my friend at ease!



No different than joining the Kiwanas, PTA, Rotary Club, SCV,  Hunting or Fishing Club.  It is just a Civic Organization.  
If God is in the business of judging you based on the Civic organizations you join our group here is really gonna catch it.


----------



## centerpin fan

Milkman said:


> No different than joining the Kiwanas, PTA, Rotary Club, SCV,  Hunting or Fishing Club.  It is just a Civic Organization.



Please list the churches who oppose membership in Kiwanas, PTA, Rotary Club, SCV, Hunting or Fishing Club.


----------



## Milkman

Milkman said:


> No different than joining the Kiwanas, PTA, Rotary Club, SCV,  Hunting or Fishing Club.  It is just a Civic Organization.
> If God is in the business of judging you based on the Civic organizations you join our group here is really gonna catch it.





centerpin fan said:


> Please list the churches who oppose membership in Kiwanas, PTA, Rotary Club, SCV, Hunting or Fishing Club.



None I know of........  But I would not join a church that judged someone because of affiliation with a Civic group.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I feel many Christian's views on Freemasonry when it comes to the "supreme being" concept vs their God is more along the lines of, God saying if you aren't with me you are against me. They might feel if you are going to let anyone join that doesn't believe in the same God as them, why not let Atheist join? To many it is the same difference. You are either Christian or Pagan.
Why can't Atheist join if Freemasonry isn't about religion? Well when the rituals and the things one must learn to progress through the degrees require a belief in the "Great Architect", what choice does one have?
Like I said, for me it's more the rituals than having brothers who aren't Christian.


----------



## gemcgrew

Milkman said:


> None I know of........  But I would not join a church that judged someone because of affiliation with a Civic group.


Do all civic groups have temples and altars?


----------



## JLow10

centerpin fan said:


> Please list the churches who oppose membership in Kiwanas, PTA, Rotary Club, SCV, Hunting or Fishing Club.



What is your opinion of masonry since i have gathered that so far you have only posted the opinion of various churches and naysayers on this thread.  Answer the original question of the thread for us!  Thought we were over the hump last night but i guess not!


----------



## JLow10

gemcgrew said:


> I imagine the Boy Scouts have changed quite a bit through the years. I remember that on our camping trips, a preacher would arrive on Sundays to hold a service. I am curious if this is still the case.



So if u have such a problem with masonry then should u not in turn have a problem with boy scouts who have similar requirements?  Based upon ur recent posts of members being of different religious backgrounds.


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> What is your opinion of masonry since i have gathered that so far you have only posted the opinion of various churches and naysayers on this thread.  Answer the original question of the thread for us!  Thought we were over the hump last night but i guess not!



My church is adamantly opposed to Freemasonry.  Even if they weren't, I just don't see the appeal.


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> So if u have such a problem with masonry then should u not in turn have a problem with boy scouts who have similar requirements?



See post 105.


----------



## JLow10

centerpin fan said:


> See post 105.



See post 154, 159, 161, and 163


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> See post 154, 159, 161, and 163



No mention of the Boy Scouts in any of them.


----------



## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> My church is adamantly opposed to Freemasonry.



I may have missed that post, but have you detailed why?  If you have already stated your reasons, could you point me to the post?


----------



## JLow10

No but they oppose freemasonry having members of different religions.  As do the boy scouts!  Matter of fact a lot of boy scout troops are sponsored by masonic lodges.  He posted the bible verse to say that it oppose an organization to have or fellowship with people a different beleifs.  Isnt that kind of hippocritical when he seems to be affiliated with the boy scouts but they allow the same thing?


----------



## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> I may have missed that post, but have you detailed why?  If you have already stated your reasons, could you point me to the post?



Details:

http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/masonry.aspx

http://www.roca.org/OA/70/70t.htm


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> No but they oppose freemasonry having members of different religions.  As do the boy scouts!  Matter of fact a lot of boy scout troops are sponsored by masonic lodges.  He posted the bible verse to say that it oppose an organization to have or fellowship with people a different beleifs.  Isnt that kind of hippocritical when he seems to be affiliated with the boy scouts but they allow the same thing?



I'll let gemcgrew respond, but I'll stick with post 105.


----------



## JLow10

centerpin fan said:


> I'll let gemcgrew respond, but I'll stick with post 105.



Your missing the point.  U have no logical retort because there is none.  I never once questioned what the boy scouts do or how the church views them.  The point im making is that you guys wanted to post bible verses ahainst the fellowship with people of other religions but the boy scouts have the same view as the masons?


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> The point im making is that you guys wanted to post bible verses ahainst the fellowship with people of other religions but the boy scouts have the same view as the masons?



I haven't posted any Bible verses.  _My point_ is that churches view Freemasonry as a religion.  They do not view the Boy Scouts, the Marines, the Rotary Club, the Bassmasters, or the X-Men as a religion.


----------



## JLow10

centerpin fan said:


> Details:
> 
> http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/masonry.aspx
> 
> http://www.roca.org/OA/70/70t.htm



Still not your opinion just that of an excerpt from yet another masonic bashing website.  Based on the info the second one those guys sound like they were a part of the salem witch hunts!  For him to be a pastor and discriminate against someone joining his church bc of a civic affiliation puts a bad taste in my mouth considering the goal of a church is to spread the word!  My church doesnt turn anyone away.  Hard to beleive any church would do that!!


----------



## JLow10

centerpin fan said:


> I haven't posted any Bible verses.  _My point_ is that churches view Freemasonry as a religion.  They do not view the Boy Scouts, the Marines, the Rotary Club, the Bassmasters, or the X-Men as a religion.



And my original post wasnt directed towards you but you took upon yourself to answer for mr mcgrew.  He did so how do you feel about what he posted.  Since u guys obviously have the same views.  I thought you watched a program last night that would show we are not in fact remotely close to a religion.


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> Still not your opinion ...



I agree with my church.




JLow10 said:


> Based on the info the second one those guys sound like they were a part of the salem witch hunts!  For him to be a pastor and discriminate against someone joining his church bc of a civic affiliation puts a bad taste in my mouth considering the goal of a church is to spread the word!  My church doesnt turn anyone away.  Hard to beleive any church would do that!!



Here's a Presbyterian take on FM.  Feel free to post links of churches extolling the virtues of Masonic membership.

http://saintsalive.com/resourcelibrary/freemasonry/a-presbyterian-report-on-freemasonry




JLow10 said:


> My church doesnt turn anyone away.



What denomination?  Is your minister supportive of your membership in the FM?


----------



## TaxPhd

centerpin fan said:


> Just because they were wrong then does not make them wrong on Freemasonry.  Besides, as I said before, I can't find any church that fully endorses FM.  At best, they kind of tolerate it.
> 
> BTW, this documentary is not exactly making you guys out to be a bunch of choirboys.



Can you find any church that _fully endorses_ other fraternal/civic organizations?


----------



## JLow10

centerpin fan said:


> I agree with my church.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's a Presbyterian take on FM.  Feel free to post links of churches extolling the virtues of Masonic membership.
> 
> http://saintsalive.com/resourcelibrary/freemasonry/a-presbyterian-report-on-freemasonry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What denomination?  Is your minister supportive of your membership in the FM?



Baptist!  To my knowledge he doesnt have an opinion because it doesn't concern him!


----------



## centerpin fan

TaxPhd said:


> Can you find any church that _fully endorses_ other fraternal/civic organizations?



As I said before, no church I've been a part of has ever said a negative word about the Boy Scouts.


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> For him to be a pastor and discriminate against someone joining his church bc of a civic affiliation puts a bad taste in my mouth considering the goal of a church is to spread the word!  My church doesnt turn anyone away.  Hard to beleive any church would do that!!



Assemblies of God:

*Secret Societies*

This document reflects commonly held beliefs based on scripture which have been endorsed by the church's Commission on Doctrinal Purity and the Executive Presbytery.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

*Why should Christians avoid membership in secret societies such as the Masons?*

The nature of secret societies is completely contrary to Christian belief. The Bible is an open book inviting all who will, to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ (Rev. 22:17). Anyone inquiring into membership in the family of God can investigate, ask questions, read the inspired handbook (the Bible), and make a decision for Christ fully knowing what the cost and consequences of the action will be. 

In stark contrast, a secret society welcomes only a restricted number into membership, into the secret oaths and ceremonies, and into the activities of the society. Members of secret orders often compare their organization with the fellowship of believers in a local church. But a secret society is quite different from a church in that it is elitist in nature rather than inclusive. Unlike a church it does not extend its fellowship to any and all persons desiring to identify with the organization, its principles and practices. 

Article IX of the Assemblies of God Bylaws includes an entire section on forbidding membership in secret orders. The stated reasons for not allowing credentialed ministers to belong to secret orders and for encouraging lay persons to avoid involvement with such orders can be summarized as follows:

1.The activities of secret orders demand time and energy that divert the servant of the Lord from efforts to fulfill the Great Commission.
2.The binding loyalty to fellow members of the secret society—many of whom are not fellow believers in Jesus Christ and His saving work—is an unworthy joining together of believers with unbelievers.
3.The spirit, philosophy, and general influence of secret orders channel activities toward improving only the natural part of humankind instead of changing the heart of the spiritual being.
4.Commitment to secret orders and their teachings leads one to a wrong emphasis on salvation through good works and improving society.

The Assemblies of God is not the only church group to have great concerns about secret orders. The largest Christian church in the world does not allow Masons to partake of communion and declares that participation in Masonry is a sin. This stance has grown out of major historic conflict between Masons and that church. Seeking to dispel this negative image, Masons often maintain that there is nothing in their Masonic oaths or obligations that would interfere with duty to God, country, or neighbor. But the historical record proves otherwise. No allegiance can come before one’s allegiance to God.

Secret societies are in conflict with the teachings of Holy Scripture. A Christian must never affiliate with any organization that 1) yokes together believers with unbelievers in unholy alliances (2 Cor. 6:14-18); 2) requires a pledge to unscriptural oaths which are sealed by using the name of God improperly or in vain (Ex. 20:7, Lev. 5:4-6, Matt. 5:34-37, James 5:12); 3) represents itself as providing teaching in harmony with the Bible when in fact it does not (2 Peter 3:16); 4) represents itself as being religious and offers a false hope of salvation through works, yet dishonors the only true God and our Savior the Lord Jesus Christ (John 17:3, 1 Tim. 2:3-6, Col. 2:8-10, Eph. 2:8,9).

The Christian should "be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody" (Rom. 12:17). Secretively meeting behind closed doors in a "lodge" where activities are carried on behind a cloak of secrecy, in favor of fellow members, usually for economic, social, or political advantage hardly describes doing what is right in the eyes of everybody. "Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord" (2 Cor. 6:17). This is God’s advice for Christians and is certainly applicable in regard to secret societies.

*CONCERNS:*

Since the statement in the Assemblies of God bylaws on Secret Orders does not mention any organization by name, some have felt that their involvement in Masonry is not what the statement is about. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, the original statement was drafted primarily because of concerns about Freemasonry. However, the official statement and the above reaffirmation apply not just to one organization, but to all organizations that make secrecy and oaths a part of their operation.


http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/topics/charctr_16_secret_societie.cfm


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> Baptist!  To my knowledge he doesnt have an opinion because it doesn't concern him!



I'd be interested in hearing his comments on this:

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=5959


----------



## JLow10

In stark contrast, a secret society welcomes only a restricted number into membership, into the secret oaths and ceremonies, and into the activities of the society. Members of secret orders often compare their organization with the fellowship of believers in a local church. But a secret society is quite different from a church in that it is elitist in nature rather than inclusive. Unlike a church it does not extend its fellowship to any and all persons desiring to identify with the organization, its principles and practices. 

So the post in regards to the pastor turning away a mason because of his affiliation is not the same thing.  So its ok for the church to discriminate but not masonry!  Now i understand!


----------



## TaxPhd

centerpin fan said:


> As I said before, no church I've been a part of has ever said a negative word about the Boy Scouts.



So that's it?  The Boy Scouts stand alone?

How about other civic/fraternal organizations, comprised of adults, that are more like the Masons?

In my experience, the answer is "none."  And for the simple reason that membership in these other organizations takes time, effort and money from the member away from their church.  When a Shriner contributes money and time to a Shriner's hospital, it is time and money that isn't being contributed to their church.

It really has nothing to do with any issues related to the occult, or any other nonsense that is heaped onto the Masons.


----------



## TaxPhd

centerpin fan said:


> Article IX of the Assemblies of God Bylaws includes an entire section on forbidding membership in secret orders. The stated reasons for not allowing credentialed ministers to belong to secret orders and for encouraging lay persons to avoid involvement with such orders can be summarized as follows:
> 
> 1.The activities of secret orders demand time and energy that divert the servant of the Lord from efforts to fulfill the Great Commission.



And there it is. . .


----------



## JLow10

centerpin fan said:


> Assemblies of God:
> 
> *Secret Societies*
> 
> This document reflects commonly held beliefs based on scripture which have been endorsed by the church's Commission on Doctrinal Purity and the Executive Presbytery.
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> *Why should Christians avoid membership in secret societies such as the Masons?*
> 
> The nature of secret societies is completely contrary to Christian belief. The Bible is an open book inviting all who will, to come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ (Rev. 22:17). Anyone inquiring into membership in the family of God can investigate, ask questions, read the inspired handbook (the Bible), and make a decision for Christ fully knowing what the cost and consequences of the action will be.
> 
> In stark contrast, a secret society welcomes only a restricted number into membership, into the secret oaths and ceremonies, and into the activities of the society. Members of secret orders often compare their organization with the fellowship of believers in a local church. But a secret society is quite different from a church in that it is elitist in nature rather than inclusive. Unlike a church it does not extend its fellowship to any and all persons desiring to identify with the organization, its principles and practices.
> 
> Article IX of the Assemblies of God Bylaws includes an entire section on forbidding membership in secret orders. The stated reasons for not allowing credentialed ministers to belong to secret orders and for encouraging lay persons to avoid involvement with such orders can be summarized as follows:
> 
> 1.The activities of secret orders demand time and energy that divert the servant of the Lord from efforts to fulfill the Great Commission.
> 2.The binding loyalty to fellow members of the secret society—many of whom are not fellow believers in Jesus Christ and His saving work—is an unworthy joining together of believers with unbelievers.
> 3.The spirit, philosophy, and general influence of secret orders channel activities toward improving only the natural part of humankind instead of changing the heart of the spiritual being.
> 4.Commitment to secret orders and their teachings leads one to a wrong emphasis on salvation through good works and improving society.
> 
> The Assemblies of God is not the only church group to have great concerns about secret orders. The largest Christian church in the world does not allow Masons to partake of communion and declares that participation in Masonry is a sin. This stance has grown out of major historic conflict between Masons and that church. Seeking to dispel this negative image, Masons often maintain that there is nothing in their Masonic oaths or obligations that would interfere with duty to God, country, or neighbor. But the historical record proves otherwise. No allegiance can come before one’s allegiance to God.
> 
> Secret societies are in conflict with the teachings of Holy Scripture. A Christian must never affiliate with any organization that 1) yokes together believers with unbelievers in unholy alliances (2 Cor. 6:14-18); 2) requires a pledge to unscriptural oaths which are sealed by using the name of God improperly or in vain (Ex. 20:7, Lev. 5:4-6, Matt. 5:34-37, James 5:12); 3) represents itself as providing teaching in harmony with the Bible when in fact it does not (2 Peter 3:16); 4) represents itself as being religious and offers a false hope of salvation through works, yet dishonors the only true God and our Savior the Lord Jesus Christ (John 17:3, 1 Tim. 2:3-6, Col. 2:8-10, Eph. 2:8,9).
> 
> The Christian should "be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody" (Rom. 12:17). Secretively meeting behind closed doors in a "lodge" where activities are carried on behind a cloak of secrecy, in favor of fellow members, usually for economic, social, or political advantage hardly describes doing what is right in the eyes of everybody. "Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord" (2 Cor. 6:17). This is God’s advice for Christians and is certainly applicable in regard to secret societies.
> 
> *CONCERNS:*
> 
> Since the statement in the Assemblies of God bylaws on Secret Orders does not mention any organization by name, some have felt that their involvement in Masonry is not what the statement is about. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, the original statement was drafted primarily because of concerns about Freemasonry. However, the official statement and the above reaffirmation apply not just to one organization, but to all organizations that make secrecy and oaths a part of their operation.
> 
> 
> http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/topics/charctr_16_secret_societie.cfm


1.  Anything u do away from church can be labeled by this one!

2.  Sounds like the same membership requirements of the boy scouts and marines so the church must disagree with them too!!

3.  As said in several post before there is absolutely no spirtiual meaning in anything that we do and if all the charitable things we do is a sin then why do people do anything charitable at all!

4.  Also as posted several times before there is absolutely no promise of any salvation in masonry!


----------



## TaxPhd

> 2.The binding loyalty to fellow members of the secret society—many of whom are not fellow believers in Jesus Christ and His saving work—is an unworthy joining together of believers with unbelievers.



What was it the article was saying about elitist rather than inclusive?

Rather telling. . .


----------



## JonesCoJason

I will say this about the Church's response to Masonry.  My Methodist Pastor is a Master Mason.  

To become a Methodist Pastor one must complete an undergrad program and then a doctorate of theology and Divinity.  I take the opinion of this highly educated man over yours.  

I to trust my church and if a highly educated pastor has no problem with it then I really can't see how someone who is much less educated (myself included) can have a problem with this.


----------



## HucK Finn

Jlow.... just let it be. 

 Freemasonry aside.......I and you know our relationship with "The Almighty" and centerpin nor his church will have a say, when it comes down to the final judgement day. That is all that matters.


----------



## Ronnie T

I'm now wondering if I should remove membership from my local bass club.  Time I spend with it, is time I could have spend with my church.  Make sense?

Are we going way over the top with some of the rationale in this thread?


----------



## JLow10

Ronnie T said:


> I'm now wondering if I should remove membership from my local bass club.  Time I spend with it, is time I could have spend with my church.  Make sense?
> 
> Are we going way over the top with some of the rationale in this thread?



Hey dont "hook" the messenger!!


----------



## ryano

HucK Finn said:


> Jlow.... just let it be.
> 
> Freemasonry aside.......I and you know our relationship with "The Almighty" and centerpin nor his church will have a say, when it comes down to the final judgement day. That is all that matters.



Agreed!  Best post in this thread!


----------



## rjcruiser

HucK Finn said:


> Rj after reading some of your comments, I come to two conclusions... 1) you must have been the co-captain of your preschool debate team, with the sharp wit that you have
> and 2) you are "HAPPY, HAPPY,HAPPY"... (refer to post #149)



Never went to Preschool...but, I was the captain of my Kindergarten team.



HucK Finn said:


> I dont take every passage in the Bible at face value.



Why does that not surprise me.



elfiii said:


> Now I remember why I never come in here.



Hey...go back to the Political forum 



JonesCoJason said:


> I will say this about the Church's response to Masonry.  My Methodist Pastor is a Master Mason.
> 
> To become a Methodist Pastor one must complete an undergrad program and then a doctorate of theology and Divinity.  I take the opinion of this highly educated man over yours.
> 
> I to trust my church and if a highly educated pastor has no problem with it then I really can't see how someone who is much less educated (myself included) can have a problem with this.



Do you think your pastor's opinion is a Biblical one?  Do you think the Lord will excuse actions based on the reason of "well...because my pastor told me it was okay....I thought it was okay."  Don't you think the Lord would want you to research the question yourself?  After all, you will be held accountable for your actions....not your pastor.



HucK Finn said:


> Jlow.... just let it be.
> 
> Freemasonry aside.......I and you know our relationship with "The Almighty" and centerpin nor his church will have a say, when it comes down to the final judgement day. That is all that matters.



Does it bother you that a lot of Christian churches have issues with what you are a part of?  Does that not send some type of warning signal to you...even if it isn't accurate?



Ronnie T said:


> I'm now wondering if I should remove membership from my local bass club.  Time I spend with it, is time I could have spend with my church.  Make sense?
> 
> Are we going way over the top with some of the rationale in this thread?



Yup...need to quite that bass club.  Sell all your fishing gear...and give it to charity.  There's no reference to having fun in the Bible.


----------



## bigdawg25

JonesCoJason said:


> I will say this about the Church's response to Masonry.  My Methodist Pastor is a Master Mason.
> 
> To become a Methodist Pastor one must complete an undergrad program and then a doctorate of theology and Divinity.  I take the opinion of this highly educated man over yours.
> 
> I to trust my church and if a highly educated pastor has no problem with it then I really can't see how someone who is much less educated (myself included) can have a problem with this.



Let me just make comment which doesnt necessary is saying anything about FM. 

if you toe the official line of your pastor for everything then there would have been no protestant revolution in 16th century because no one would have opposed the catholic church. every action of yours has personal responsibility, and shifting the burden on your pastor doesnt work in this world, let alone in divine world.


----------



## bigdawg25

HucK Finn said:


> Jlow.... just let it be.
> 
> Freemasonry aside.......I and you know our relationship with "The Almighty" and centerpin nor his church will have a say, when it comes down to the final judgement day.* That is all that matters.*



yeah a clarity of thought and personal judgement is what matters in end; not what me, catholic church, or some others think. We should all shouldnt get caught up in small things,and just look at the bigger picture.


----------



## centerpin fan

TaxPhd said:


> So that's it?  The Boy Scouts stand alone?
> 
> How about other civic/fraternal organizations, comprised of adults, that are more like the Masons?
> 
> In my experience, the answer is "none."  And for the simple reason that membership in these other organizations takes time, effort and money from the member away from their church.  When a Shriner contributes money and time to a Shriner's hospital, it is time and money that isn't being contributed to their church.
> 
> It really has nothing to do with any issues related to the occult, or any other nonsense that is heaped onto the Masons.



I disagree.  It has everything to do with the churches' view that FM is another faith:


_The Masonic "God" is an idol. What the Masons really worship is Man – or the Spirit who has deceived man from the beginning: the masked Spirit of Evil. This is the one primal reason why the Catholic Church has condemned, and will always condemn, Freemasonry._ - Catholic


_"Freemasonery is a mystery religion quite different, separate, and alien to the Christian faith."_ - Orthodox


_ ... eight "tenets and teachings" of Freemasonry that were found to be "incompatible with Christianity"_ - Baptist


_ ... Masonry is a religious institution and as such is definitely anti-Christian._ - Presbyterian


----------



## TaxPhd

centerpin fan said:


> I disagree.  It has everything to do with the churches' view that FM is another faith:
> 
> 
> The Masonic "God" is an idol.



There is no "Masonic God."  There is simply a requirement that a Mason believe in God.



> What the Masons really worship is Man – or the Spirit who has deceived man from the beginning: the masked Spirit of Evil. This is the one primal reason why the Catholic Church has condemned, and will always condemn, Freemasonry. - Catholic



Masons aren't about worship - that is the province of religion.  Instead, they are all about making good men better.



> "Freemasonery is a mystery religion quite different, separate, and alien to the Christian faith." - Orthodox



Again, it's not a religion, regardless of how frequently and vociferously you protest to the contrary.


----------



## centerpin fan

TaxPhd said:


> Again, it's not a religion, regardless of how frequently and vociferously you protest to the contrary.



I didn't say those things.  I'm just quoting others.  

If I could find a church praising FM and encouraging its members to join, I'd link to it.


----------



## TaxPhd

centerpin fan said:


> If I could find a church praising FM and encouraging its members to join, I'd link to it.



Do you know of churches praising the Kiwanis, "Loyal Order of the Moose," or other fraternal/civic organizations, other then the Boy Scouts?


----------



## dawg2

6 pages....holy cow...


----------



## centerpin fan

dawg2 said:


> 6 pages....



... and no sign of stopping.


----------



## centerpin fan

TaxPhd said:


> Do you know of churches praising the Kiwanis, "Loyal Order of the Moose," or other fraternal/civic organizations, other then the Boy Scouts?



Praising?  No.

Neither have I heard the type of comments I quoted in post 249.


----------



## centerpin fan

dawg2 said:


> 6 pages....holy cow...



Maybe this topic should join the other "bad boy":  Bible versions.


----------



## rjcruiser

TaxPhd said:


> There is no "Masonic God."  There is simply a requirement that a Mason believe in a God.



Is that more accurate?  I'm basing that off of what others have said in this thread.


----------



## HucK Finn

centerpin fan said:


> I agree with my church.





centerpin fan said:


> I didn't say those things.  I'm just quoting others.



It would seem that, you opinion is perfectly aligned with whatever propaganda your church spews concerning FM.


----------



## HucK Finn

rjcruiser said:


> Is that more accurate?  I'm basing that off of what others have said in this thread.



That's accurate....


----------



## centerpin fan

HucK Finn said:


> It would seem that, you opinion is perfectly aligned with whatever propaganda your church spews concerning FM.




I'll say it again:




centerpin fan said:


> Feel free to post links of churches extolling the virtues of Masonic membership.


----------



## rjcruiser

HucK Finn said:


> That's accurate....



Then why have a KJV Bible in the middle of every Lodge?

For the God of the Bible is not "a god" but the one and only true God.

And I guess that is one of the issues I have.  Most of the Mason's that have commented talk about how it re-inforces the Bible and their faith.  On the surface, this appears true...but upon a deaper look at it, it seems to do the opposite.


----------



## TaxPhd

centerpin fan said:


> Praising?  No.




Of course not.  For the reasons that I have explained before.



> Neither have I heard the type of comments I quoted in post 249.



There are a lot of historical reasons for the animosity shown by organized christian religions towards Masons.  

Currently, it is a lot easier to say that they are anti-biblical/anti-christian, than it is to say that time and money spent on Masonic and Shriner issues is time and money taken away from the church.


----------



## centerpin fan

TaxPhd said:


> Of course not.  For the reasons that I have explained before.



Is there a "Kiwanis Watch"?  There certainly is a "Freemasonry Watch":

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/anti-masonry.html

Is there an "Ex Boy Scouts for Jesus" website?  There certainly is an "Ex Masons for Jesus" site:

http://emfj.org/




TaxPhd said:


> Currently, it is a lot easier to say that they are anti-biblical/anti-christian, than it is to say that time and money spent on Masonic and Shriner issues is time and money taken away from the church.



The former is the real issue, and they've been saying it for ages.


----------



## TaxPhd

centerpin fan said:


> Is there a "Kiwanis Watch"?  There certainly is a "Freemasonry Watch":
> 
> http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/anti-masonry.html
> 
> Is there an "Ex Boy Scouts for Jesus" website?  There certainly is an "Ex Masons for Jesus" site:
> 
> http://emfj.org/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The former is the real issue, and they've been saying it for ages.



It is clear that your mind is made up, based on no personal knowledge and understanding, but rather on the writings of those that have a significant, vested interest in denigrating the Masons.

Good luck!


----------



## HucK Finn

rjcruiser said:


> Then why have a KJV Bible in the middle of every Lodge?
> 
> For the God of the Bible is not "a god" but the one and only true God.
> 
> And I guess that is one of the issues I have.  Most of the Mason's that have commented talk about how it re-inforces the Bible and their faith.  On the surface, this appears true...but upon a deaper look at it, it seems to do the opposite.



It is not in every lodge, the lodges in the Middle East or India may have their own bible, or whatever VSL would apply to their religion.

In the Americas and most European lodges, the religion is predominantly Christian, thus you have a KJV Bible.


----------



## Ronnie T

Well, I just did an internet search.  Everything on the internet is true ya know.
I've learned, from my internet search, that free masons worship satan and they practice witchcraft and they don't allow atheists into the masons.

Sounds like a lot of bogus information is available to any who's looking for a bandwagon to jump on.


----------



## Timberman

If you are judged worthy, you will  learn the answers.


----------



## gemcgrew

JLow10 said:


> So if u have such a problem with masonry then should u not in turn have a problem with boy scouts who have similar requirements?  Based upon ur recent posts of members being of different religious backgrounds.


My last camping adventure with the Boy Scouts was in 1976. I don't know how they operate today. But in 1976, on Sundays, a preacher would have a short service for us and point us to Christ.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Well, I just did an internet search.  Everything on the internet is true ya know.
> I've learned, from my internet search, that free masons worship satan and they practice witchcraft and they don't allow atheists into the masons.
> 
> Sounds like a lot of bogus information is available to any who's looking for a bandwagon to jump on.



Ronnie, how would you handle it if one of your church members asked for your thoughts on joining the Freemasons?


----------



## Artfuldodger

It would be very simple for the Freemasons to show the world that they aren't a religious organization by allowing Atheist to join.
To do that they would have to get rid of the "Great Architect," which I doubt they will never do.
What denomination do most of ya'll masons belong too?
The reason the Boy Scouts was mentioned was because anyone who belongs to a supreme being can join. It's ironic that people are ok with scouting but not masonry no matter what their Church says if you are using the "supreme being" as the argument. Both clubs have members who don't believe in the God who sent his son, Jesus. 
At what point do Christians stop associating with people who believe in another God? Do you ask everyone you work with and quit your job? Do you ask everyone on an airplane before it takes off? Do Protestants quit hanging out with Catholics? Their God requires works, your doesn't. Non-trinitarians, they only have one God. Oneness believers, is their God OK? What about the believers in the God of Abraham? The Christians, Jews, and Muslims? Are they better than Pagans & Atheist?


----------



## Artfuldodger

The Episcopal Church, has taken no stance against Masonry.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS church) has a longstanding policy of maintaining no official position on Freemasonry.
Well that's two churches that Freemasons can join. Maybe if they just didn't call it the "craft!"


----------



## JLow10

gemcgrew said:


> My last camping adventure with the Boy Scouts was in 1976. I don't know how they operate today. But in 1976, on Sundays, a preacher would have a short service for us and point us to Christ.



Thanks for wasting my time with this comment!  As posted sevral times!  The boy scouts do not ask u to beleive in God but A supreme being as do the masons so explain to me why u dont bash the boy scouts but you do the masons.  Oh wait u were a boy scout so nevermind!


----------



## JLow10

centerpin fan said:


> I didn't say those things.  I'm just quoting others.
> 
> If I could find a church praising FM and encouraging its members to join, I'd link to it.



Not sure y u would post things on a forum and then not own up to the fact that you completely back what u post.  Still havent answered my question of why if the goal of a church is to spread the religion and lead others to christ or whatever they beleive would discriminate and turn others away!  But then you didnt say that u just posted so not sure if u beleive it?  Who knows?!!


----------



## Artfuldodger

One policy I do like about Freemasonry is that they aren't suppose to sleep with other members wives. That is a pretty good policy for any religion or Atheist.
I've always wondered about the car trunk emblems and all the local police/sheriff departments. It would be hard to imagine if all police officers are Freemasons and would help a brother out. Maybe in days of past and in the south.


----------



## Artfuldodger

During the 1930's my Grandfather lived in New York City. He had a daughter and she owned a dog. In New York City in the 1930's your dog had to be leashed any time it was taken outside. If not and reported to the police, they would arrive at your home with an order to take the dog to the pound to be put to sleep. A harsh penalty but it was the middle of the depression. Well, one day the dog got out without it's leash. A day or so later a policeman was knocking on the door and told my Grandfather that they received a report that the dog was outside without a leash. Under the law the dog had to be taken.

Of course the child, all of 6 years old, was in tears because she opened the door and let the dog out. The policeman noticed my Grandfather's Masonic ring, they had a conversation and identified each other as Freemasons. That police officer, that night, brought over to the house a dog that looked similar to my grandfather's dog. It was of the same breed. The next morning the police officer arrived at the house and in the witness of the neighbors he took the dog away (the one that the officer brought to the house that night).

This policeman risked his job to help a fellow Master Mason. During the depression you took your employment quite seriously. Before that meeting at the house these two men did not know each other. After this incident they became extremely good friends for the rest of their lives.

http://www.themasonictrowel.com/leadership/management/leadership_files/in_search_of_brotherhood.htm


----------



## Artfuldodger

Freemasons

    How much influence do the Freemasons have on your department and city/county/state government ?

    All the chiefs in the history of my doepartent have been Freemasons. When I came on 25 years ago, the chief was actually insulted if you did not try to join a Masonic lodge. Almost all the supervisors, detectives, narcotics and traffic bureau people were Freemasons, and the "profane" were expected to trudge along as patrolmen for their entire careers. It seemed like about half the traffic stops you made, someone would be tappong a compass ring on the door as you approached

    Things have changed since then. Although the present chief if a mason, there are many people in high and desirable positions who are not, and I don't think anybody careas about that any more. I dont know if it is that the department has changed in that regard, or in society in general

(Do ya'll feel this part of Freemasonry is a thing of the past?)

http://forums.officer.com/t45946/


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> Not sure y u would post things on a forum and then not own up to the fact that you completely back what u post.








JLow10 said:


> Still havent answered my question of why if the goal of a church is to spread the religion and lead others to christ or whatever they beleive would discriminate and turn others away!



Churches shouldn't turn anybody away.



JLow10 said:


> But then you didnt say that u just posted so not sure if u beleive it?  Who knows?!!


----------



## gemcgrew

JLow10 said:


> Thanks for wasting my time with this comment!  As posted sevral times!  The boy scouts do not ask u to beleive in God but A supreme being as do the masons so explain to me why u dont bash the boy scouts but you do the masons.  Oh wait u were a boy scout so nevermind!


Like I said, in my experience with the Boy Scouts (1976), I was pointed to Christ and Christ only. I have no idea what they do or promote today. If you are correct in that the Boy Scouts require a belief in any supreme being, then I will challenge them as well.


----------



## JLow10

Artfuldodger said:


> During the 1930's my Grandfather lived in New York City. He had a daughter and she owned a dog. In New York City in the 1930's your dog had to be leashed any time it was taken outside. If not and reported to the police, they would arrive at your home with an order to take the dog to the pound to be put to sleep. A harsh penalty but it was the middle of the depression. Well, one day the dog got out without it's leash. A day or so later a policeman was knocking on the door and told my Grandfather that they received a report that the dog was outside without a leash. Under the law the dog had to be taken.
> 
> Of course the child, all of 6 years old, was in tears because she opened the door and let the dog out. The policeman noticed my Grandfather's Masonic ring, they had a conversation and identified each other as Freemasons. That police officer, that night, brought over to the house a dog that looked similar to my grandfather's dog. It was of the same breed. The next morning the police officer arrived at the house and in the witness of the neighbors he took the dog away (the one that the officer brought to the house that night).
> 
> This policeman risked his job to help a fellow Master Mason. During the depression you took your employment quite seriously. Before that meeting at the house these two men did not know each other. After this incident they became extremely good friends for the rest of their lives.
> 
> http://www.themasonictrowel.com/leadership/management/leadership_files/in_search_of_brotherhood.htm



A few months we had a brother is a musician.  He was building a house for wife and three kids when he fell about 25 ft and crushed his heel and broke his back!  I witnessed something very special that Thursday night at lodge when we raised at the drop of a hat over 700 hundred dollars for him and his family.  The bad thing was the family had given up the house they lived in before and were set to move in the next weekend but the house had not passed all the codes to make it liveable.  I along with 20 or so other brethren met there that saturday and finished the house for him to get it to code.  We did everything from building a backporch to rewiring the house!  Makes me proud to call myself a mason that we could fly to a brothers releif in a moments notice!


----------



## Artfuldodger

This is a typical reaction from a Freemason when the "secrets" of the lodge are presented to him by the "profane". You get the same reaction when beginning to interview a Crip or a Blood. They just snicker at you until you show them some "knowledge" and then they start spewing all kinds of stuff to you

Masons are not allowed to recruit, but if you ask one of them a question about it, they will ask you to join. Have you ever seen one of those bumper stickers '2B1Ask1" ?

A friend of mine (actually a FORMERfriend because he turned out to be a real dirtball) was trying to get me to join a while back. I asked him what Masons did at the lodge. I asked him "Do you guys shoot pool? Play Cards? He said I would have to join to find out, so I little reseach (pre internet days). Then I went back to work and gave all my Mason buddies the handshake and a bunch of the secret words. I thought they would get mad at me, but they just snickered uncomfortably and said "where did you here that crazy stuff"?....Then they REALLY pressured me to join.

http://forums.officer.com/t45946/


----------



## JLow10

centerpin fan said:


> Churches shouldn't turn anybody away.



So y would u post something saying that a pastor turned a mason away that was interested in the church!  Sounds a little hipocritical!  Safe to say u have let people that have no understanding or knowledge of masonry influence you in the wrong direction so far that your not willing to see the truth!  Your original point 5 pages ago was that catfish should get involved in the church and respect that opinion!  All the other posts of propaganda and blasphemy that you have posted i will chalk up to ignorance of the subject!


----------



## Artfuldodger

JLow10 said:


> A few months we had a brother is a musician.  He was building a house for wife and three kids when he fell about 25 ft and crushed his heel and broke his back!  I witnessed something very special that Thursday night at lodge when we raised at the drop of a hat over 700 hundred dollars for him and his family.  The bad thing was the family had given up the house they lived in before and were set to move in the next weekend but the house had not passed all the codes to make it liveable.  I along with 20 or so other brethren met there that saturday and finished the house for him to get it to code.  We did everything from building a backporch to rewiring the house!  Makes me proud to call myself a mason that we could fly to a brothers releif in a moments notice!



I do commend you and your lodge for doing that. It reminds me when communities everywhere did that. Some Socialist religious communities do things like that. In that respect, socialism is a good thing. Way better to help a brother build his burnt barn back than selling him a new one.


----------



## JLow10

gemcgrew said:


> Like I said, in my experience with the Boy Scouts (1976), I was pointed to Christ and Christ only. I have no idea what they do or promote today. If you are correct in that the Boy Scouts require a belief in any supreme being, then I will challenge them as well.



Challenge away!  Boy scouts also need sponsors because they cannot by the bylaws run themselves.  Many boy scout troops are now sponsored by masonic lodges!


----------



## JLow10

Artfuldodger said:


> I do commend you and your lodge for doing that. It reminds me when communities everywhere did that. Some Socialist religious communities do things like that. In that respect, socialism is a good thing. Way better to help a brother build his burnt barn back than selling him a new one.



I firmly beleive in the 2B1ASK1 aspect that most masons do follow.  We are not supposed to recruit.  My brother in law asked me for a year or so about the masons and i just told me that i couldnt answer any questions finally he asked one day how he becomes one and i showed him the next day!  Sometimes family will push their family to be a mason.  That is why in our lodge we do not allow fathers to sign sons petitions because of that aspect.


----------



## gemcgrew

JLow10 said:


> Challenge away!  Boy scouts also need sponsors because they cannot by the bylaws run themselves.  Many boy scout troops are now sponsored by masonic lodges!


That is good to know and I will research it.

JLow10, are you allowed to talk about Christ, as Lord and Savior, while you are in the lodge?


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> So y would u post something saying that a pastor turned a mason away that was interested in the church!  Sounds a little hipocritical!



To which post are you referring?




JLow10 said:


> Safe to say u have let people that have no understanding or knowledge of masonry influence you in the wrong direction so far that your not willing to see the truth!



Did the 32 degree Mason who decided he could no longer be involved in FM and remain a faithful Catholic have any knowledge of masonry?  How about the guys at "Ex Masons for Jesus"?  Do they have any understanding or knowledge of masonry?


----------



## JLow10

gemcgrew said:


> That is good to know and I will research it.
> 
> JLow10, are you allowed to talk about Christ, as Lord and Savior, while you are in the lodge?



Do this on sunday in church!


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> Do this on sunday in church!



Translation:  "No, we are not allowed to talk about Christ in the lodge."


----------



## JLow10

centerpin fan said:


> To which post are you referring?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Did the 32 degree Mason who decided he could no longer be involved in FM and remain a faithful Catholic have any knowledge of masonry?  How about the guys at "Ex Masons for Jesus"?  Do they have any understanding or knowledge of masonry?



http://www.roca.org/OA/70/70t.htm

Do u not read the info that you post?  

As for the second part.  Many masons that join the fraternity may join for the wrong reasons or feel that they were wrong in someway feel the need to blast there feelings on the internet or in books.  Just many people do from various churches.  I would google those and post some I will not in fear of being persecuted or getting an infraction that i dont want because i enjoy this forum for its other aspects.


----------



## JLow10

centerpin fan said:


> Translation:  "No, we are not allowed to talk about Christ in the lodge."



I do not go to the lodge to talk about christ just like i dont go to work or the ballpark or the woods or the mall or bass pro shops to talk about christ!  I go to church.  That is the best "translation"!!


----------



## gemcgrew

JLow10 said:


> I do not go to the lodge to talk about christ just like i dont go to work or the ballpark or the woods or the mall or bass pro shops to talk about christ!  I go to church.  That is the best "translation"!!


Is it permitted in the lodge?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Is there any way a "brother" can show me the light without joining Freemasonry? I don't like being of the "profane" but would rather not join the organization. I don't consider it a religion and neither do ya'll so is their any reason to horde the light & truth just for members? Is it possible for a profane person to find the light & truth elsewhere if your club won't help me?


----------



## bigdawg25

JLow10 said:


> Not sure y u would post things on a forum and then not own up to the fact that you completely back what u post.  *Still havent answered my question of why if the goal of a church is to spread the religion and lead others to christ or whatever they beleive would discriminate and turn others away!*  But then you didnt say that u just posted so not sure if u beleive it?  Who knows?!!



I think you are referring to catholic church ban on its members to become FM. Theoretically, yeah its wrong for churches to turn its own members away for ANY reason. as an example, church doesn't turn away other sinners (i.e. everyone) from going to church, then surely they shouldnt pick and choose then in this case. Having said that, let me also say that churches are well within their rights to "discourage" their members from doing something. 

Someone here mentioned about how catholic church was wrong abt earth being round, and by same token, they are ignorant on FM issue too. I actually think its quite the contrary; after the debacle of the church in middle ages, they are twice as cautious in taking ANY positions, and I would like to think that the positions they have taken, they did so after applying enough thought and deliberation, because lets face it, the catholic church can ill afford to have anything blow up in its face intentionally.


----------



## JLow10

gemcgrew said:


> Is it permitted in the lodge?



There is nothing in the lodge that says i cannot but there is no reason to because it has nothing to do with religion.  What's your point?


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Ronnie, how would you handle it if one of your church members asked for your thoughts on joining the Freemasons?



I'd tell him that the only thing I know about the masons came from people who didn't know much about the masons either.
So I would encourage him to be a disciple of Christ in that decisions, as in all his decisions.

I frankly suspect most of the info contained in this thread is close to being worthless.


----------



## bigdawg25

Artfuldodger said:


> *Is there any way a "brother" can show me the light without joining Freemasonry?* I don't like being of the "profane" but would rather not join the organization. I don't consider it a religion and neither do ya'll so is their any reason to horde the light & truth just for members? Is it possible for a profane person to find the light & truth elsewhere if your club won't help me?



this is one question which has eluded normal folks for centuries. Whenever someone asks this, they are told to become a member and then find out for themselves. If this wasnt the case then FM really wont be nearly as controversial as they are now.


----------



## JLow10

Dont know where u work but im not allowed to talk about religious views at work!  Does that make the fortune 500 company I work for devil worshipers?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Well since we are on a Christianity sub-forum, what can joining Freemasonry do to a Christian's salvation? What if they were a Christian first and joined Free masonry later?  Wouldn't it be like a Protestant becoming a Catholic?


----------



## gemcgrew

JLow10 said:


> There is nothing in the lodge that says i cannot but there is no reason to because it has nothing to do with religion.  What's your point?


The lodge has nothing to do with religion? If that is the case, why have the Bible in the lodge? 

I am just checking the accuracy of the link I provided earlier in this thread. It appears to be accurate from the responses.


----------



## Artfuldodger

bigdawg25 said:


> I think you are referring to catholic church ban on its members to become FM. Theoretically, yeah its wrong for churches to turn its own members away for ANY reason. as an example, church doesn't turn away other sinners (i.e. everyone) from going to church, then surely they shouldnt pick and choose then in this case. Having said that, let me also say that churches are well within their rights to "discourage" their members from doing something.
> 
> Someone here mentioned about how catholic church was wrong abt earth being round, and by same token, they are ignorant on FM issue too. I actually think its quite the contrary; after the debacle of the church in middle ages, they are twice as cautious in taking ANY positions, and I would like to think that the positions they have taken, they did so after applying enough thought and deliberation, because lets face it, the catholic church can ill afford to have anything blow up in its face intentionally.



They would ban gay members unless the repented. Wouldn't a Freemason need to repent to join?


----------



## JLow10

Artfuldodger said:


> Well since we are on a Christianity sub-forum, what can joining Freemasonry do to a Christian's salvation? What if they were a Christian first and joined Free masonry later?  Wouldn't it be like a Protestant becoming a Catholic?



Absolutely nothing artful!  Masonry promises no spiritual salvation!  I was a christian when i joined and i am still a christian today!


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> I'd tell him that the only thing I know about the masons came from people who didn't know much about the masons either.
> So I would encourage him to be a disciple of Christ in that decisions, as in all his decisions.
> 
> I frankly suspect most of the info contained in this thread is close to being worthless.



Ronnie, if being a Mason required you to keep secrets from your wife, would there be a conflict scripturally?


----------



## Artfuldodger

bigdawg25 said:


> this is one question which has eluded normal folks for centuries. Whenever someone asks this, they are told to become a member and then find out for themselves. If this wasnt the case then FM really wont be nearly as controversial as they are now.



It could be very simple. The "light" might be a secret code word for "networking." Some people use Christianity for "networking." I would hate to think someone would join a club or Church just to receive personal benefits.


----------



## JLow10

gemcgrew said:


> The lodge has nothing to do with religion? If that is the case, why have the Bible in the lodge?
> 
> I am just checking the accuracy of the link I provided earlier in this thread. It appears to be accurate from the responses.



Yes we have a bible in the lodge!  In my lodge where as far as i know we are mostly christians within the lodge( don't go around asking what they beleive) we do pray over our meeting as they do before a little league baseball game!  I have a bible in my house!  To make that comment simpler.  My home is not a holy place in regards to the church and neither is the lodge.  So im not sure where your angle is here?


----------



## Artfuldodger

JLow10 said:


> Absolutely nothing artful!  Masonry promises no spiritual salvation!  I was a christian when i joined and i am still a christian today!



And that was my point.


----------



## JLow10

Artfuldodger said:


> It could be very simple. The "light" might be a secret code word for "networking." Some people use Christianity for "networking." I would hate to think someone would join a club or Church just to receive personal benefits.



This is why we refer to our organization as benevolent.  If your joining a lodge any personal reason be it monetary or spiritually your making a mistake.  We do charitable work and use the time to fellowship with like minded men.  The only personal benefit is the longtime freindships and knowledge of masonry that u will gain!


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> So y would u post something saying that a pastor turned a mason away that was interested in the church!



The man was more interested in being a Mason.  As I've said repeatedly, the Catholic church, the Orthodox church, and many (if not most) Protestant churches view FM as _another religion._  (I understand that Masons deny this.)  

If a Hindu expressed interest in the church but refused to give up his faith, the priest's reaction would have been the same.  You cannot serve two masters.


----------



## gemcgrew

JLow10 said:


> I have a bible in my house!


Do you have nothing to do with religion in your home as in your lodge?



JLow10 said:


> To make that comment simpler.  My home is not a holy place in regards to the church and neither is the lodge.  So im not sure where your angle is here?


No angle. I am trying to reconcile the comments "the lodge has nothing to do with religion" and " we have a Bible in our lodge".


----------



## JLow10

centerpin fan said:


> The man was more interested in being a Mason.  As I've said repeatedly, the Catholic church, the Orthodox church, and many (if not most) Protestant churches view FM as _another religion._  (I understand that Masons deny this.)
> 
> If a Hindu expressed interest in the church but refused to give up his faith, the priest's reaction would have been the same.  You cannot serve two masters.



      One day I received a call from an older man of Greek background who wished to join our parish. He made an appointment to come and talk to me. Although I noticed that he wore a distinctive ring, I failed to recognize the emblem until he casually mentioned that he belonged to the "Blue Lodge." When I asked what this was, he said, "It's a local Masonic Lodge." "Demetrios," I replied, "I can't admit you to the Sacraments if you area Freemason." "Why not?" he asked. "Because Masonry is anti-Christian and has been condemned by both the Greek and Russian Churches in this century." "That's funny," he said, "because I know many Orthodox who are my 'lodge brothers,' even a bishop!"

     Shortly after this meeting with Demetrios (he refused to renounce Masonry, telling me that I simply didn't understand it), I had another encounter with a Mason. I then resolved that in future I would routinely ask all new parishioners or inquirers if they were involved with Masonry (or any of its related organizations--Odd Fellows, Shriners, Demolay, Job's Daughters, Rainbow Girls) in accordance with this decree from the Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Church ;,broad, dating from 1932 and still in force: 

The (Holy Council recommends) to pastors the necessity of questioning every person presenting himself for confession with a view of finding out whether or not that person is a member of a Masonic organization and whether or not he shares its doctrine. If it appears that the person is a member explain to him that participation in these organizations is incompatible with the name of Christian, with being a member of the Church of Christ That he must take a firm decision to break with Masonry and with doctrines related to it; and if he does not do so, not to admit him m Holy Communion; and if he should refuse to repent, to excommunicate him from the Holy Church." 


This says nothing about serving two masters.  It simply says that he turned him because of his affiliation!


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> I am trying to reconcile the comments "the lodge has nothing to do with religion" and " we have a Bible in our lodge".



Same here.


----------



## JLow10

JLow10 said:


> Yes we have a bible in the lodge!  In my lodge where as far as i know we are mostly christians within the lodge( don't go around asking what they beleive) we do pray over our meeting as they do before a little league baseball game!  I have a bible in my house!  To make that comment simpler.  My home is not a holy place in regards to the church and neither is the lodge.  So im not sure where your angle is here?



You failed to copy the whole qoute!!  Mainly the part about my home being holy in regards to the church!  Do i pray in my home?  Sure!!  Do i invite everyone over and have a religious meeting as your saying we do in the lodge because a bible is there?  No!!  WE GO TO CHURCH FOR THAT!!


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> This says nothing about serving two masters.  It simply says that he turned him because of his affiliation ...



... with "a mystery religion quite different, separate, and alien to the Christian faith."


----------



## JLow10

If we are so religious why would we allow our members to go to different churches?  You can't serve two masters right?  So y would we be ok with that?


----------



## JLow10

centerpin fan said:


> ... with "a mystery religion quite different, separate, and alien to the Christian faith."



Read the post again!  That was another peice of propaganda u posted!  I made it easy for you.  Show me that wording in the excerpt i cut out in post 309!


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Ronnie, if being a Mason required you to keep secrets from your wife, would there be a conflict scripturally?



Hey, my wife and your wife keep secrets from you and I.
And don't think they don't.
Wives have this "secret society" in which they play these little "life" games with their husbands.  All the wives know about it.  They pretend they don't.


----------



## gemcgrew

JLow10 said:


> You failed to copy the whole qoute!!  Mainly the part about my home being holy in regards to the church!  Do i pray in my home?  Sure!!  Do i invite everyone over and have a religious meeting as your saying we do in the lodge because a bible is there?  No!!  WE GO TO CHURCH FOR THAT!!



Perhaps I am just confused. You said "we do pray over our meeting" and yet I am also to believe that "the lodge has nothing to do with religion"?


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Hey, my wife and your wife keep secrets from you and I.
> And don't think they don't.
> Wives have this "secret society" in which they play these little "life" games with their husbands.  All the wives know about it.  They pretend they don't.


I am starting to suspect that you might be a Mason.


----------



## JLow10

Do you pray before you eat a meal?


----------



## gemcgrew

JLow10 said:


> Do you pray before you eat a meal?


And after.


----------



## JLow10

I shouldnt have played that silly game either!  Just because you pray over something doesnt mean it has to do with religion.  Eating a meal doesnt have anything to do with religion.  Palying a sporting doesnt have to anything to do with religion.  Beginning of a school day doesnt have anything to do with religion.  I think you are very confused mcgrew and with u saying that you proved the point i have feverishly attempted to make to naysayers.  You can have an opinion you know nothing about but dont try to make things seem to be something they are not if you have no first hand account.  Last time i checked posting an excerpt from an online source is not firsthand!!


----------



## gemcgrew

JLow10 said:


> I shouldnt have played that silly game either!  Just because you pray over something doesnt mean it has to do with religion.  Eating a meal doesnt have anything to do with religion.  Palying a sporting doesnt have to anything to do with religion.  Beginning of a school day doesnt have anything to do with religion.


Of course it does when it is opened with prayer.



JLow10 said:


> I think you are very confused mcgrew and with u saying that you proved the point i have feverishly attempted to make to naysayers.  You can have an opinion you know nothing about but dont try to make things seem to be something they are not if you have no first hand account.  Last time i checked posting an excerpt from an online source is not firsthand!!


I admitted to being confused by your conflicting statements. If it makes you feel better, I am still confused.


----------



## JLow10

gemcgrew said:


> Of course it does when it is opened with prayer.
> 
> 
> I admitted to being confused by your conflicting statements. If it makes you feel better, I am still confused.



So religion makes you play baseball!  Or people play baseball to find salvation!  That might be a fun religion!  Let me know who does that i might have to check it out!  You are very confused!  With that i am very done with this conversation!  It makes me hard to beleive that any christian person would be so against something that does good for so many people but that is what the internet and ignorant people combine to give u!  Ive already rendered your other naysayer speechless but confusion will keep you coming back for more!  Dont worry there will be plenty more brothers on this thread to prove you wrong time and time again as i did!


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> Read the post again!  That was another peice of propaganda u posted!  I made it easy for you.  Show me that wording in the excerpt i cut out in post 309!



It's not in the excerpt you cut out.  It appears later in the article.


----------



## gemcgrew

JLow10 said:


> So religion makes you play baseball!  Or people play baseball to find salvation!  That might be a fun religion!  Let me know who does that i might have to check it out!  You are very confused!  With that i am very done with this conversation!  It makes me hard to beleive that any christian person would be so against something that does good for so many people but that is what the internet and ignorant people combine to give u!  Ive already rendered your other naysayer speechless but confusion will keep you coming back for more!  Dont worry there will be plenty more brothers on this thread to prove you wrong time and time again as i did!


Looking forward to it. Thanks for your interaction.


----------



## rjcruiser

JLow10 said:


> No!!  WE GO TO CHURCH FOR THAT!!



This is a foreign concept to me....and I'm having trouble reconciling it with what the Bible says about Christians and the early Church.

Compartmentalizing our faith into days of the week or places we go is not Biblical.  We are to "pray without ceasing."  We are to "live our lives (whole lives not just parts) as a living and holy sacrifice."

I, like CF and gem....am having trouble with the fact that it's a christian organization...but it isn't.


----------



## JLow10

rjcruiser said:


> This is a foreign concept to me....and I'm having trouble reconciling it with what the Bible says about Christians and the early Church.
> 
> Compartmentalizing our faith into days of the week or places we go is not Biblical.  We are to "pray without ceasing."  We are to "live our lives (whole lives not just parts) as a living and holy sacrifice."
> 
> I, like CF and gem....am having trouble with the fact that it's a christian organization...but it isn't.



No one ever said it was christian organization.  People pray before a pta meeting does that make them a christian organization?  No because that would be against the seperation of church and state.  I agree you should live through christ as a christian.  In saying that i wqtch network television is that christian?  Everything you do in your daily life cannot be labeled as christian.  I have yet to be explained how praying before a little league game or any non christian suddenly makes that organization christian?  Once again as made mention in past posts you are not my judge nor my lord.  I and only I no the relationship that we have and no matter what you nor any propaganda you post from the internet can change that!!


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> I am starting to suspect that you might be a Mason.



Not me.  I once was a member of the Lions Club.  I soon discovered I wasn't cut out for those sorts of things.
.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> This is a foreign concept to me....and I'm having trouble reconciling it with what the Bible says about Christians and the early Church.
> 
> Compartmentalizing our faith into days of the week or places we go is not Biblical.  We are to "pray without ceasing."  We are to "live our lives (whole lives not just parts) as a living and holy sacrifice."
> 
> I, like CF and gem....am having trouble with the fact that it's a christian organization...but it isn't.



Now there's a trio that'll turn heads.  

.


----------



## centerpin fan

Ronnie T said:


> Now there's a trio that'll turn heads.
> 
> .



We're gonna start our own boy band.


----------



## bigdawg25

rjcruiser said:


> This is a foreign concept to me....and I'm having trouble reconciling it with what the Bible says about Christians and the early Church.
> 
> Compartmentalizing our faith into days of the week or places we go is not Biblical.  We are to "pray without ceasing."  We are to "live our lives (whole lives not just parts) as a living and holy sacrifice."
> 
> *I, like CF and gem....am having trouble with the fact that it's a christian organization...but it isn't*.



from this thread I have realized that the worst enemy of FM is FM themselves. Some FM repeatedly claimed here that its a christian organization devoted to faith building; whereas some others like Jlow10 said its not religious at all. Really, I think even if they send out one message then there would be no criticisms; especially if they are what jlow10 says they are i.e. a non religious entity, then I am sure that people like me will have zero objections to them.


----------



## JLow10

bigdawg25 said:


> from this thread I have realized that the worst enemy of FM is FM themselves. Some FM repeatedly claimed here that its a christian organization devoted to faith building; whereas some others like Jlow10 said its not religious at all. Really, I think even if they send out one message then there would be no criticisms; especially if they are what jlow10 says they are i.e. a non religious entity, then I am sure that people like me will have zero objections to them.



Cite one post that has said that fm is a christian faith building organization?  That's gonna be hard to do!  Unless you google it.


----------



## bigdawg25

JLow10 said:


> Cite one post that has said that fm is a christian faith building organization?  That's gonna be hard to do!  Unless you google it.



after 7 pages full of posts its hard to go back and look for them; but before you chimed in, there were some who alluded that FM is inherently christian organization devoted to building faith through brotherhood. As I said before, with the way you portrayed it, it seems like too much ado about nothing.


----------



## Milkman

Ronnie T said:


> I'm now wondering if I should remove membership from my local bass club.



Ronnie, if you say a prayer of thanks when you catch a 10 lb bass while participating in a club tournament that makes it a "religious organization"  better drop out now rather than face the danger of eternal torment


----------



## JLow10

bigdawg25 said:


> after 7 pages full of posts its hard to go back and look for them; but before you chimed in, there were some who alluded that FM is inherently christian organization devoted to building faith through brotherhood. As I said before, with the way you portrayed it, it seems like too much ado about nothing.



You are correct that it is nothing to do with what the several naysayers have portrayed it to be!  Im sure no one with first hand knowledge portrayed it to be a christian faith building organization but if thats what you got out of the seven pages then i understand based upon some of the outrageous things i have heard here.  Im not arguing with u though because you are the one few non mason that doesnt seem to have an issue!


----------



## gemcgrew

Milkman said:


> Ronnie, if you say a prayer of thanks when you catch a 10 lb bass while participating in a club tournament that makes it a "religious organization"  better drop out now rather than face the danger of eternal torment


Nobody is claiming that. What they are claiming is that they have a Bible displayed in the lodge and they pray over their lodge meeting. They also claim that the lodge has nothing to do with religion.


----------



## rjcruiser

JLow10 said:


> No one ever said it was christian organization.



Then why do they require belief in god? or a god?  Others have said it is a organization that is christian in nature.

When asked if it is good for a christian to join, all of the responses are "we've got an old KJV in the middle of the lodge."




JLow10 said:


> Once again as made mention in past posts you are not my judge nor my lord.



Never have said that.  But...we are told to encourage our brothers & sisters in Christ towards sanctification.  

We are told to discern...I think that is what most on here are trying to do.  It is hard to do this because of the limited information that is out there.

The thing about religion is that people get defensive when their personal faith is questioned.


----------



## JLow10

I think other non masons have seen my point!  If "the trio" cannot understand then dont join because you think its a cult or whatever your opinion is.  Doesnt make any difference to me!


----------



## Artfuldodger

JonesCoJason said:


> Wow!  all of the haters who have only heard about Masonry from people who have heard bad things.  Talk about Gossip.  I am a Christian and believe in ONE GOD!  while I cannot speak as to the workings of other lodges I can say that if you do not believe in GOD then you will not be accepted.  not budda, not muhammed but GOD our Christian GOD.  that being said I would like to make a few points.
> 
> 1. "We are a secret society". - if so we are doing a very poor job of it.  so many of you know a lot about something that is supposedly secret.  the biggest secret about freemasonry is that there is no secret
> 2. the uninformed people who will discourage you from joining or ridicule those that are active members are just that, uninformed.  we are a brotherhood of like mostly like minded men who strive to be better husbands, fathers, and Men.  we also pray to God at every meeting.
> 
> all of this being said CrazyCatfish, good luck on your journey and if once you become a Master Mason you can come visit my lodge any time.  Sincerity Lodge#430 F&AM.



This lodge requires a belief in the Christian God.


----------



## JLow10

Artfuldodger said:


> This lodge requires a belief in the Christian God.



That is the lodge i am a member of!  As i posted before we are a lodge that is from the people that i know their religion is christian.  This does not mean that you cannot be a mason or join our lodge if you are not.  The brother was mistaken in that we dont require the beleif in the christian God but a supreme being.  You do however have to pay attention the demographics of where a lodge is located.  In the south most people are christians.  In other locations that may be different!  Still doesnt make the point that a lodge is religious meeting place for the purpose of salvation or any other personal gain other than friendship and the charitable work that we do!


----------



## ryano

This thread is still going 

At what point has this  to the point that this thread will be closed?   1000 posts? 

I appreciate the Brethren that have stepped up but you are fighting a losing battle.   There is no point arguing with someone over their ignorance of something they know nothing about other than what they have read and copied and pasted from the internet.

Let them think and believe what they want to.


----------



## Nicodemus

I wonder if the thread starter got the answer he was looking for?


----------



## JLow10

rjcruiser said:


> Then why do they require belief in god? or a god?  Others have said it is a organization that is christian in nature.
> 
> When asked if it is good for a christian to join, all of the responses are "we've got an old KJV in the middle of the lodge."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Never have said that.  But...we are told to encourage our brothers & sisters in Christ towards sanctification.
> 
> We are told to discern...I think that is what most on here are trying to do.  It is hard to do this because of the limited information that is out there.
> 
> The thing about religion is that people get defensive when their personal faith is questioned.



A lodge is a culmination of like minded men.  Atheist are not like minded as in they do not beleive in any god!  In asking if its good for christians to join i eould say why not has it has no religous benefits as i have mentioned time and time again.  Im my opinion its a great organization.  Have you visited the hospitals that we support or talked to an orphan we provided food and shelter?


----------



## centerpin fan

ryano said:


> There is no point arguing with someone over their ignorance of something they know nothing about other than what they have read and copied and pasted from the internet.



_Ex-Masons for Jesus is an organization of Christian men and women who were once members of a Masonic Lodge or one of the affiliated Masonic organizations such as Eastern Star, DeMolay, Job's Daughters or Rainbow Girls.

We have left Masonry because of our commitment to Jesus Christ and a realization that Masonry is not consistent with a sincere expression of the Christian faith. We have found that participation in Freemasonry interferes with a close relationship with Jesus Christ.

We seek to expose the non-Christian nature of the teachings of Freemasonry and to make ourselves available to witness and testify of our firsthand knowledge. Our purpose is to encourage others to renounce Freemasonry and through education, to prevent still others from being seduced into joining._

http://www.emfj.org/vision.htm


----------



## Artfuldodger

JLow10 said:


> That is the lodge i am a member of!  As i posted before we are a lodge that is from the people that i know their religion is christian.  This does not mean that you cannot be a mason or join our lodge if you are not.  The brother was mistaken in that we dont require the beleif in the christian God but a supreme being.  You do however have to pay attention the demographics of where a lodge is located.  In the south most people are christians.  In other locations that may be different!  Still doesnt make the point that a lodge is religious meeting place for the purpose of salvation or any other personal gain other than friendship and the charitable work that we do!



I figured he was mistaken although an honest mistake as you mentioned.  Most churches know all their members aren't Christian, why would one think a lodge is? Seriously though many FM's do feel like their lodge is Christian in the south. I never met any Catholics let alone Muslims & Hindus until I left joined the Navy and left south Georgia.


----------



## ryano

centerpin fan said:


> _Ex-Masons for Jesus is an organization of Christian men and women who were once members of a Masonic Lodge or one of the affiliated Masonic organizations such as Eastern Star, DeMolay, Job's Daughters or Rainbow Girls.
> 
> We have left Masonry because of our commitment to Jesus Christ and a realization that Masonry is not consistent with a sincere expression of the Christian faith. We have found that participation in Freemasonry interferes with a close relationship with Jesus Christ.
> 
> We seek to expose the non-Christian nature of the teachings of Freemasonry and to make ourselves available to witness and testify of our firsthand knowledge. Our purpose is to encourage others to renounce Freemasonry and through education, to prevent still others from being seduced into joining._
> 
> http://www.emfj.org/vision.htm



Seduced into joining 

That is the MOST absurd thing i have ever read and sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me.  A candidate is NOT "seduced" into joining the Lodge.    He comes in under his own free will or he doesnt come in at all.

But hey, you go on believing everything youve read on the internet and keep on copying and pasting nonsense if thats what makes you feel good


----------



## centerpin fan

ryano said:


> But hey, you go on believing everything youve read on the internet ...



What I have read in this thread can be summarized thusly:

1)  Churches are wrong.
2)  Ex-Masons are wrong.
3)  Masons are right.


----------



## rjcruiser

centerpin fan said:


> We're gonna start our own boy band.



Sweet.  I'll be the young good looking guy who can't sing.


----------



## ryano

centerpin fan said:


> What I have read in this thread can be summarized thusly:
> 
> 1)  Churches are wrong.
> 2)  Ex-Masons are wrong.
> 3)  Masons are right.



Like I said, believe what you want to because you are going to anyway.  Im a Mason and I also have a personal relationship with Jesus and thats all that really matters to me.    I also know without a shadow doubt that I will be in Heaven when I leave this ol world..... I hope you can say the same



Bye Bye now.


----------



## JLow10

centerpin fan said:


> What I have read in this thread can be summarized thusly:
> 
> 1)  Churches are wrong.
> 2)  Ex-Masons are wrong.
> 3)  Masons are right.



More like:

1). Churches opinion of masonry is wrong
2). Ex masons are just that ex masons!  Enough said!
3). Masons are correct in regards to what the lodge is for!

Your perception is we are trying to persecute you for beleiving in church.  Simply not true!  We have a problem with the propaganda that the church post about masonry.  If you could open your mind to the fact that freemasonry has nothing to do with salvation or religion the quicker you will find another thread to post on!


----------



## JLow10

Artfuldodger said:


> I figured he was mistaken although an honest mistake as you mentioned.  Most churches know all their members aren't Christian, why would one think a lodge is? Seriously though many FM's do feel like their lodge is Christian in the south. I never met any Catholics let alone Muslims & Hindus until I left joined the Navy and left south Georgia.



I can definitely agree with that statement in saying that we think most of the people there are christians!  The difference is masonry gives us something to do during our down time!  Christianity and church gives us something to live by and strive for!  In other words fm promotes no salvation and is not a religion.  Christianity most certainly does.  Again artful i appreciate your intelectual view of this discussion and commend your comments and stance!  You have family that are i think from your past post are masons?  Do you feel that masonry has changed their faith or called them away from God or the church?  If you feel at liberty to answer that if not i certainly understand!


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> Your perception is we are trying to persecute you for beleiving in church.



That is not my perception at all.




JLow10 said:


> ... freemasonry has nothing to do with salvation or religion ...



... according to current Masons.  Ex-Masons disagree.




JLow10 said:


> ... the quicker you will find another thread to post on!



I'm going fishing for a few days, so y'all have at it.  I'll stay in touch if I can.


----------



## JLow10

centerpin fan said:


> _Ex-Masons for Jesus is an organization of Christian men and women who were once members of a Masonic Lodge or one of the affiliated Masonic organizations such as Eastern Star, DeMolay, Job's Daughters or Rainbow Girls.
> 
> We have left Masonry because of our commitment to Jesus Christ and a realization that Masonry is not consistent with a sincere expression of the Christian faith. We have found that participation in Freemasonry interferes with a close relationship with Jesus Christ.
> 
> We seek to expose the non-Christian nature of the teachings of Freemasonry and to make ourselves available to witness and testify of our firsthand knowledge. Our purpose is to encourage others to renounce Freemasonry and through education, to prevent still others from being seduced into joining._
> 
> http://www.emfj.org/vision.htm



This group was obviously looking for more than what masonry can offer!!


----------



## Ronnie T

centerpin fan said:


> We're gonna start our own boy band.






I'll buy your first album.
Whacha gonna call the band?
Rock on brother.


----------



## Ronnie T

Milkman said:


> Ronnie, if you say a prayer of thanks when you catch a 10 lb bass while participating in a club tournament that makes it a "religious organization"  better drop out now rather than face the danger of eternal torment



Yep.
Shhhhhhhhhhhh.     I even heard an 'amen' awhile back.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Nobody is claiming that. What they are claiming is that they have a Bible displayed in the lodge and they pray over their lodge meeting. They also claim that the lodge has nothing to do with religion.



I think he simply meant that it isn't a "religious organization" per say.

The Lions club isn't a religious organization, but many, or most of them pray and go to church with each other.  They don't discuss religion at their meetings, but many of them are Christians.
We don't generally discuss Christianity at my bassclub meetings, but most of us would say that we are Christians.
.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Then why do they require belief in god? or a god?  Others have said it is a organization that is christian in nature.
> 
> When asked if it is good for a christian to join, all of the responses are "we've got an old KJV in the middle of the lodge."
> 
> Never have said that.  But...we are told to encourage our brothers & sisters in Christ towards sanctification.
> 
> We are told to discern...I think that is what most on here are trying to do.  It is hard to do this because of the limited information that is out there.
> 
> The thing about religion is that people get defensive when their personal faith is questioned.



But who's getting defensive, you or he.  I applaud the gentleman for hanging in here answering questions.  He owes you no explanation.  I don't know any more about the FM's than you do, but I seem to understand what he's saying.

Are you a member of any organizations?


----------



## Ronnie T

Nicodemus said:


> I wonder if the thread starter got the answer he was looking for?






He should have known better than ask the question here.
Shoulda ask his question at the campfire.


----------



## Ronnie T

centerpin fan said:


> That is not my perception at all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ... according to current Masons.  Ex-Masons disagree.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going fishing for a few days, so y'all have at it.  I'll stay in touch if I can.



Where?
.


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> But who's getting defensive, you or he.  I applaud the gentleman for hanging in here answering questions.  He owes you no explanation.  I don't know any more about the FM's than you do, but I seem to understand what he's saying.
> 
> Are you a member of any organizations?



Seems to me the FMs are getting defensive....but maybe they're thinking the opposite.  Just getting a lot of "well...I'm a FM and I'm a Christian...so there."

I'm not seeing answers to questions either.  Just generic statements and 2b1ask1.

As far as member of any organizations....hmm...well...yes actually, I am.

I'm a card carrying member of the USTA.  They force me to join so I can play local league tennis. 

Also, I'm a CPA...so, I guess that is a "organization."  I send a check every other year and have to do CPE to keep up with it.

Lastly, I'm a non-member regular attender of my church.  We don't have an official roll...so, no membership drive there...so take that for what it's worth.



Ronnie T said:


> He should have known better than ask the question here.
> Shoulda ask his question at the campfire.



Yup...in the traveling man sticky at the top of that forum.  I'm guessing he would've found exactly what he was looking for.

Funny thing is...if you believe in the sovereignty of God, the Lord directed his question here for a reason.


----------



## Artfuldodger

The rituals & symbols of Feemasonry might just be for fellowship fun & games. Make believe sorta. I mentioned already that is the part I could not perform. If it's not a religion then why must one believe in the Great Architect of the Universe? Why have temples, altars, Enlightenment, going from darkness to light by rebirth,& Heavenly rewards for works?
Why are new initiates in darkness even if Christians? Why is the Bible only one of several "Volumes of Sacred Law?" Why have this Hiram Abiff character?  
I don't personally believe it is a religious club but it treads too close for my comfort.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Seems to me the FMs are getting defensive....but maybe they're thinking the opposite.  Just getting a lot of "well...I'm a FM and I'm a Christian...so there."
> 
> I'm not seeing answers to questions either.  Just generic statements and 2b1ask1.
> 
> As far as member of any organizations....hmm...well...yes actually, I am.
> 
> I'm a card carrying member of the USTA.  They force me to join so I can play local league tennis.
> 
> Also, I'm a CPA...so, I guess that is a "organization."  I send a check every other year and have to do CPE to keep up with it.
> 
> Lastly, I'm a non-member regular attender of my church.  We don't have an official roll...so, no membership drive there...so take that for what it's worth.
> 
> 
> 
> Yup...in the traveling man sticky at the top of that forum.  I'm guessing he would've found exactly what he was looking for.
> 
> Funny thing is...if you believe in the sovereignty of God, the Lord directed his question here for a reason.



Hey, if you attend the church I serve three Sundays in a row, you a member!    And you gonna get asked to do something.


----------



## JLow10

Artfuldodger said:


> The rituals & symbols of Feemasonry might just be for fellowship fun & games. Make believe sorta. I mentioned already that is the part I could not perform. If it's not a religion then why must one believe in the Great Architect of the Universe? Why have temples, altars, Enlightenment, going from darkness to light by rebirth,& Heavenly rewards for works?
> Why are new initiates in darkness even if Christians? Why is the Bible only one of several "Volumes of Sacred Law?" Why have this Hiram Abiff character?
> I don't personally believe it is a religious club but it treads too close for my comfort.



Some of these questions refer to our "secrets" which i cant answer for you at this time.  I can say that there is no rebirth just enlightenment of masonry and the traditions of the past.  Hence you have no "born again" masons!  From the naked eye i can see where some of the things we do are religious but i can assure u that aside from prayer they are not!  Hiram abiff is not the almight or someone we worship but a master mason like the rest of us.  The difference he is was an operative mason and we are speculative masons.


----------



## JLow10

Also no heavenly reward.  That would be sort of a salvation in my eyes.  The church thinks that charitable works should be commended.  I just choose to do some of my charitable works through masonry instead of the church.  I also participate in relay for life and things such as that with the church as well.


----------



## Artfuldodger

JLow10 said:


> Also no heavenly reward.  That would be sort of a salvation in my eyes.  The church thinks that charitable works should be commended.  I just choose to do some of my charitable works through masonry instead of the church.  I also participate in relay for life and things such as that with the church as well.



I would also like to commend you on hanging in here with us and answering questions. You have remained cool, calm, and collective.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Hey, if you attend the church I serve three Sundays in a row, you a member!    And you gonna get asked to do something.



True, my wife & I went to a new Church for three Sundays in a row and they asked us if we could teach Sunday School.


----------



## atlfishingnews

Hello and great day everyone,
My grandfather was a Mason he joined as a young man, and died as one, my granndmother also joined their group for women, Stars or something in the title, my uncle also joined.  My grandfather and grandmother and my uncle pray to God and do not practice any weird rituals or hate people, they were the most loving people on the planet, I say were because my grandparents have both passed on now.  When my grandfather passed on he left me his Mason belt and I cherish it. I believe many people, thanks to the internet and news gossip, dont like or fear the Masons because of the secrecy involved.  The secret has nothing to do with others, but people choose to see it that way simply because they feel left out.  People will always argue over religion in the same way they argue over politics,they feel that their beliefs and their way is the only way and what you are doing has to be wrong for the simple reason its different.  This is the kind of thinking that separates people and keeps them from accepting all individuals, and loving everyone for who they are. It stops the love and brings up nothing but hate and the differences between people instead of bringing everyone together.  Dear sir, you must do what ever it is you so desire, you are not wrong nor are you right, it just is... and those who love you will always love you for who you are, those who love you or like you, but fall away from  you for this decision, will either stay lost from you or come back to you in time. The Masons are a religious organization that allows people of all faiths to attend and join.  They help families when they need help with money to feed their families, or their children in hospitals when they can't afford it, and more.  I'm sorry for all the grief for your simple question. I dont know you personally but I will still talk to you no matter what your decision. Good Luck


----------



## JLow10

Artfuldodger said:


> I would also like to commend you on hanging in here with us and answering questions. You have remained cool, calm, and collective.



I have no problem with someone opposing masonry as do you.  I do however have problems with someone bashing masonry!  As i said before if masonry is something someone is doing for personal gain such as spiritual or monetary they r there for the wrong reasons.  I enjoy the friendship and comradery of the organization.  My feeling about the emfj is that they went in expecting a new world to open and when it didnt they decided to turn into our rituals and traditions being this rebirth and false salvation that is simply untrue.  Any logical person can seperate the two from eachother once they become a mason!


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> Hey, if you attend the church I serve three Sundays in a row, you a member!    And you gonna get asked to do something.



LOL...well...depending on how you look at it, I guess you could say I'm a founding member of our church as well.  We're a home church of about 30 people.....going on around 3 years now.  Not a traditional set up, but it works.


----------



## rjcruiser

JLow10 said:


> I do however have problems with someone bashing masonry!



Most haven't been bashing in this thread....I think there's a post or two from a driveby poster....but not much.

Lots of questions...few answers...but I understand you're sworn to secrecy, so it causes issues with the answers.

If it doesn't come between you and your relationship with Jesus Christ, I don't have a problem with it.  Based on some of the answers/posts, I don't think I could keep that from happening...so I don't think I could ever join.  And for me, I can't join something not knowing for sure the answers to those questions.

Just my thoughts..


----------



## centerpin fan

JLow10 said:


> From the naked eye i can see where some of the things we do are religious but i can assure u that aside from prayer they are not!



Is the term "Worshipful Master" used in the lodge?


----------



## JLow10

rjcruiser said:


> Most haven't been bashing in this thread....I think there's a post or two from a driveby poster....but not much.
> 
> Lots of questions...few answers...but I understand you're sworn to secrecy, so it causes issues with the answers.
> 
> If it doesn't come between you and your relationship with Jesus Christ, I don't have a problem with it.  Based on some of the answers/posts, I don't think I could keep that from happening...so I don't think I could ever join.  And for me, I can't join something not knowing for sure the answers to those questions.
> 
> Just my thoughts..



Then i can respect that opinion as it wouldnt be for
You.  The bashing i refer to is endless amounts of condescinding questions to make me answer in a way that can be twisted or conformed to someones negative opinion and countless numbers of google searchs cut and pasted in this thread.  Mainly because they are competely false and if any part is true it stretches it to a point where it isnt true.


----------



## centerpin fan

Ronnie, I'm on my way to Lake Sinclair, GA.


----------



## JLow10

centerpin fan said:


> Is the term "Worshipful Master" used in the lodge?



Here we go again!  See what i mean rj?  Yes!  Which means none other than the president of our lodge for that year and then we elect a new one.  Now please twist that to mean something satanic or religious as im sure u will!  By the way the worshipful master in my lodge for the year is a good friend and was a good friend before i joined masonry and his title within the lodge does not give him any entitlement except for within those realms!


----------



## TaxPhd

Wow!  8 pages of Christians trying to stick it to the Masons that Masonry is not consistent with Christianity.  Christians that have no first hand knowledge of Masonry, and instead rely on various internet accounts.  Vs. Masons that do have first hand knowledge.

If Masonry isn't for you, here's a pro tip - don't join the Masons.  It's just that simple.  But trying to denigrate an organization with a long track record of "making good men better" and doing a HUGE quantity of good works in the process, is mean-spirited in the extreme, and is certainly not consistent with Christianity as I understand it.


----------



## ryano

TaxPhd said:


> If Masonry isn't for you, here's a pro tip - don't join the Masons.  It's just that simple.  But trying to denigrate an organization with a long track record of "making good men better" and doing a HUGE quantity of good works in the process, is mean-spirited in the extreme, and is certainly not consistent with Christianity as I understand it.


----------



## rjcruiser

JLow10 said:


> Then i can respect that opinion as it wouldnt be for
> You.  The bashing i refer to is endless amounts of condescinding questions to make me answer in a way that can be twisted or conformed to someones negative opinion and countless numbers of google searchs cut and pasted in this thread.  Mainly because they are competely false and if any part is true it stretches it to a point where it isnt true.



Gotcha



centerpin fan said:


> Ronnie, I'm on my way to Lake Sinclair, GA.



Stay away from the smoke stacks...might get 3 eyed fish over there 





JLow10 said:


> Here we go again!



It definitely sounds a bit satanic from the surface...but I hear ya...I hear ya.



TaxPhd said:


> Wow!  8 pages of Christians trying to stick it to the Masons that Masonry is not consistent with Christianity.  Christians that have no first hand knowledge of Masonry, and instead rely on various internet accounts.  Vs. Masons that do have first hand knowledge.




I think the ignorance flows both directions.


----------



## CAL

*Records*

This is a picture of the minutes of the Smith Lodge here where I live. It was in my Dad's possession when he passed away. I don't have a clue why he had them or anything other than the minutes are now in my possession and are stored in a safety deposit box for safe keeping. This page is dated Sept.7th,1888. The first page is dated 1853 to the best of my knowledge and is the first minutes of this lodge when it was started. The minutes is a whole book as this is page 132.
I have read much of these minutes and have yet to have found anything that was not appropriate or unchristian like. I am not a Mason but neither will I criticize any organization that does charity work in the country. Even back in the day of this lodge when members paid 10 cents towards their membership.
I never knew any of these people since I was born almost 100 years after the lodge was started. I do know the families of these lodge brothers and I must say they were and their descendents  are some of the best families in the county.


----------



## JLow10

He probably kept it because those minutes from a meeting where there was a funeral in the middle.  Maybe someone close to him!!


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> True, my wife & I went to a new Church for three Sundays in a row and they asked us if we could teach Sunday School.



Get out of here!
Hey, so, did you?


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> LOL...well...depending on how you look at it, I guess you could say I'm a founding member of our church as well.  We're a home church of about 30 people.....going on around 3 years now.  Not a traditional set up, but it works.



It sounds ultra-traditional to me.  And I like it.


----------



## Ronnie T

JLow10 said:


> Then i can respect that opinion as it wouldnt be for
> You.  The bashing i refer to is endless amounts of condescinding questions to make me answer in a way that can be twisted or conformed to someones negative opinion and countless numbers of google searchs cut and pasted in this thread.  Mainly because they are competely false and if any part is true it stretches it to a point where it isnt true.



That's what's called "putting the screws to you".


----------



## Artfuldodger

I would never join any club that would have someone like me as a member!


----------



## centerpin fan

Ronnie T said:


> Whacha gonna call the band?
> Rock on brother.



We're considering a few names:

"RJ and the Cruisers"

"2 Live Gemcgrew"

"Boyz 2 Masons"

All I know for sure is I'm gonna clear some mantel space for that first Grammy.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> We're considering a few names:
> 
> "RJ and the Cruisers"
> 
> "2 Live Gemcgrew"
> 
> "Boyz 2 Masons"
> 
> All I know for sure is I'm gonna clear some mantel space for that first Grammy.



Wow, those names are pretty creative. I just thought of one "Marylin Mason."


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> Wow, those names are pretty creative. I just thought of one "Marylin Mason."



Outstanding.  We need a fourth.  Can you sing bass?


----------



## Ronnie T

centerpin fan said:


> We're considering a few names:
> 
> "RJ and the Cruisers"
> 
> "2 Live Gemcgrew"
> 
> "Boyz 2 Masons"
> 
> All I know for sure is I'm gonna clear some mantel space for that first Grammy.



Hilarious.


----------



## CAL

JLow10 said:


> He probably kept it because those minutes from a meeting where there was a funeral in the middle.  Maybe someone close to him!!


No, this is a page I removed from the minutes. My neighbor wanted a copy because these minutes were from the funeral of his great grandfather. They are now back in the original book with the other minutes.


----------



## Artfuldodger

It appears "Freemasonry" is an oxymoron. Would it be OK for me to join the Prince Hall order? One requirement of "Freemasonry" is to be "free" as in "not a slave." I'm sure they fellowship together and are all part of the "brotherhood" and are welcomed in each others Lodges.
One measure of racial attitude is the recognition of Prince Hall by American Grand Lodges. Today all but thirteen states recognize Prince Hall. Do the Masons in Georgia recognize the Prince Hall Lodges as Freemasons? If not then maybe they could combine some sort of way. I'm sure they believe in a "Supreme being." Possibly the same "Supreme being" the white Freemasons believe. 

(disclaimer)
This is totally different from a government mandate of forced desegregation which I am against. We should have a government right to discriminate. As a Christian, well that should still be left up to the individual and the private club or private Church one is a member of.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I would have to agree with this mans opinion. This would hold true for everything not just Freemasonry:
In order for us to be united black/white we must first lead by example in each lodge and show the ones that say they are true and square what masonry really means love for our fellow brothers and sisters respect and maybe then this world fraternaty can be known as a force of good instead of being looked at as evil and unjust.open your hearts brothers and lets unite for a cause that is worthwhile the true light that we say we are searching for ,practice what you preach instead of being swallowed up into the abyss of hate,get it together.


----------



## havin_fun_huntin

I strongly considered joining the masons.  Have several friends, very good friends, that are masons.  Being a curious person I openly admit I wanted to know "the secrets."  My friends would tell me nothing other than "oh its a good group we do great things."  

After alot of research I decided not to join once I watched this video.  99% of the people here will not watch this but its worth watching (assuming its correct).  
Id like to add I have nothing against masons just wasnt for me


----------



## Artfuldodger

I didn't watch the whole video but I did  like the point of Christians telling everyone everything thay know  about "the truth."


----------



## havin_fun_huntin

Was kinda hoping maybe a mason would watch it and tell us if it was accurate.  If they can, I'm aware some things they cant/wont tell.


----------



## grouper throat

I don't quite get the whole secrecy issue. I can see a bunch of teenagers being in frats... but it's weird for grown men IMO. I know one and let's just say I hope he's not a representative of the masons. 

Hey fellas, I have the fourth member of your group.

Ronnie "Ice T."


----------



## bigdawg25

havin_fun_huntin said:


> I strongly considered joining the masons.  Have several friends, very good friends, that are masons.  Being a curious person I openly admit I wanted to know "the secrets."  My friends would tell me nothing other than "oh its a good group we do great things."
> 
> After alot of research I decided not to join once I watched this video.  99% of the people here will not watch this but its worth watching (assuming its correct).
> Id like to add I have nothing against masons just wasnt for me



I watched almost half of it, and it was really informative and was pretty much was trying to answer the same questions as we had in this thread.


----------



## CrazyCatfish

i am actually shocked at how far this thread has traveled.... i honestly can not believe that this is still going on with the back and forth banter this long... what i can tell you is this.. this past week i came in the lodge and started as an entered apprentice... i will say that...what else i will tell you is that all you haters that think this and that... and that masonry is a cult or a blasphemy against god. your are totally wrong..totally mislead...totally clueless. you will not and can not understand unless you join and find out for yourself. but just keep in mind it is a brotherhood not a religion. and to all my mason brothers everywhere thank you for accepting me. i look forward to our journey together.


----------



## centerpin fan

CrazyCatfish said:


> i am actually shocked at how far this thread has traveled....



Seriously?  If you so much as glanced at post #2, you should not be shocked.


----------



## CrazyCatfish

well i just never thought my post would go that far i will say that.. i know everyone has there opinions. that was why i asked in the first place. but after all my research and all the fine men i have met at the lodge there is no way no way in this world that i can justify or take seriously some of these false claims made against the brothers in the lodge. i am in now. it's official. i received the answers i was seeking and the answers to my prayers... i am a mason.


----------



## ryano

CrazyCatfish said:


> i am in now. it's official. i received the answers i was seeking and the answers to my prayers... i am a mason.



Congratulations Brother    Good luck on your journey!   And once you become Master Mason you are more than welcome to visit us at Pickens Star Lodge #220 in Jasper Ga.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Be sure to visit a few Prince Hall Lodges too. That way you can  find a different prospective on your journey to finding the real "Truth."
Here is are a few you can visit:

http://mwphglga.org/2010/


----------



## Artfuldodger

I was just reading these verses and were compelled to put them here:
"No one lights a lamp and puts it in a place where it will be hidden, or under a bowl. Instead he puts it on its stand, so that those who come in may see the light. Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eyes are good, your whole body also is full of light. But when they are bad, your body also is full of darkness. See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness. Therefore, if your whole body is full of light, and no part of it dark, it will be completely lighted, as when the light of a lamp shines on you." LUKE 11:33-36

In other words why hide the way to "truth & light?" Share your light with everyone.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> That way you can  find a different prospective on your journey to finding the real "Truth."



Art....I don't think the OP ever intended to find "the truth."  From his question and the responses he had to other posters, he was seeking reinforcement for a decision he had already made.  Unfortunately for him, he didn't find it here.


----------



## centerpin fan

rjcruiser said:


> ... he was seeking reinforcement for a decision he had already made.



Agreed.


----------



## Head East

CrazyCatfish said:


> what i found:
> "It is the mission of the Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, SJ, to improve its members and enhance the communities in which they live by teaching and emulating the principles of Brotherly Love, Tolerance, Charity, and Truth while actively embracing high social, moral, and spiritual values including fellowship, compassion, and dedication to God, family and country."
> 
> folks that is enough for me!!!! i am in---all in!




CC, every good decision you make in your life can be based on knowledge and understanding, or you can throw the dice and seek advice from your favorite forum.  As you can read within the confines of this small group, the answers you receive will bring forth a wide range of opinions.  Often times, as is so eloquently demonstrated here, opinions can be based on truth, misunderstanding, ignorance, or a simple need to appear knowledgable about something that is clearly beyond ones grasp.   

Freemasonry is a fraternity of men who associate for a mutually beneficial purpose and that purpose is for the moral development of each individual member.  Taking good men and making them better.  Freemasonry is hardly a secret organization; rather it is an organization with secrets. We do not feel the need to apologize for this.

I applaud you for taking upon yourself,  the first step in obtaining first hand knowledge and deciding for yourself, as so many good men whom have gone before you, whether you choose to embark upon a life long journey of spiritual and intellectual growth.  You see, the choice is only yours to make.   

Freemasonry is a system of morality, veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols; having a luadable goal of being able to translate the lessons and experiences that one gains from Freemasonry and utilizing them in their daily actions.  

One steps through the door and enters into the world of Freemasonry; studious and faithful to the tenets of Freemasonry.  Along this journey, one will make many new discoveries about his relationship with God, his fellow man, and himself.  

Oh, should you decide you want to play softball with a church group, you won't have any shortage of teams to choose from. Ask a newfound brother, they will never steer you in the wrong direction.

Best wishes and God speed.


----------



## rjcruiser

The whole thing reminds me of the Obamacare bill.

You gotta pass it to see what's in it.


----------



## CrazyCatfish

************ just wanted to update everyone **********

i stood my proficiency on my EA degree last night and passed with flying colors.....

i really enjoyed the lecture on the fellow craft degree and look forward to listening and learning and being coached  as i progress further in my degree work...

come join us sometime >> springville lodge # 153
-powder springs, ga


----------



## gemcgrew

CrazyCatfish said:


> come join us sometime >> springville lodge # 153
> -powder springs, ga


Can I bring my Bible?


----------



## CrazyCatfish

you sure can bring your bible..we also have several on hand if you would like to borrow one of ours.


----------



## centerpin fan

CrazyCatfish said:


> come join us sometime >> springville lodge # 153
> -powder springs, ga



Can I bring the Catholic guy from post 82?


----------



## Israel

Head East said:


> CC, every good decision you make in your life can be based on knowledge and understanding, or you can throw the dice and seek advice from your favorite forum.  As you can read within the confines of this small group, the answers you receive will bring forth a wide range of opinions.  Often times, as is so eloquently demonstrated here, opinions can be based on truth, misunderstanding, ignorance, or a simple need to appear knowledgable about something that is clearly beyond ones grasp.
> 
> Freemasonry is a fraternity of men who associate for a mutually beneficial purpose and that purpose is for the moral development of each individual member.  Taking good men and making them better.  Freemasonry is hardly a secret organization; rather it is an organization with secrets. We do not feel the need to apologize for this.I applaud you for taking upon yourself,  the first step in obtaining first hand knowledge and deciding for yourself, as so many good men whom have gone before you, whether you choose to embark upon a life long journey of spiritual and intellectual growth.  You see, the choice is only yours to make.
> 
> Freemasonry is a system of morality, veiled in allegory, and illustrated by symbols; having a luadable goal of being able to translate the lessons and experiences that one gains from Freemasonry and utilizing them in their daily actions.
> 
> One steps through the door and enters into the world of Freemasonry; studious and faithful to the tenets of Freemasonry.  Along this journey, one will make many new discoveries about his relationship with God, his fellow man, and himself.
> 
> Oh, should you decide you want to play softball with a church group, you won't have any shortage of teams to choose from. Ask a newfound brother, they will never steer you in the wrong direction.
> 
> Best wishes and God speed.



There are always only two reasons men have for what they do.

One is the reason they tell you.

The other is the real reason.


----------



## THREEJAYS

centerpin fan said:


> Absolutely nothing wrong with the mission.
> 
> My point is this:  leaving the "It's a cult/No, it's not" debate aside, why would a Christian want to join?  Based on "The Mission", I don't see what Masonry offers that my church does not.



why would a christain join a bass club?



Michael F. Gray said:


> I do not belong to the Masons, and I'm not going to throw rocks at their glass house. I am an active Christian in my local Church. I've taught Sunday School, been Director of our Church Bus Ministry, and the Prison Ministry.I Pastored for seven years before being diagnosed with cancer. My point is I am to busy serving the Lord to give my time to such a group. If you are not to busy, perhaps you should get busy. I don't know your friend, but I'll give him credit for loving you enough to share his convictions. That's Love as we rarely see it.



we need more like you say you've been but do you ever attend anything other than a church function or activity?



olcowman said:


> JB I kinda understand what you mean... and on the surface it may appear 'lame'? But from my standpoint, and this is solely my opinion here based on my own experience and isn't anything in particular I have garnered thru my membership. (so don't none of you brothers who are way on up yonder rip me a new one.)
> 
> But as far as the secrets... there really ain't nothing astounding or earth shattering as many would lead you to believe. There are no spooky voodoo rituals or naked dancing or nothing... and as far as I know the only sacrifice associated with the lodge I belong to was by my own hand when I killed a barre' hog to bbq for a 4th of July fundraiser. (his name was Snoopy and I felt real bad about it anyhow) I ain't never felt uncomfortable in any sense with my membership nor the steps taken to attain it...
> 
> I would venture to guess that to a non-Mason, especially one with no roots in the organization or 'real interest' in becoming a member... that if somebody set down with you and revealed all the 'secret stuff' that you'd end up being pretty dissapointed? To the 'uninitiated' it would all seem pretty mundane... or maybe even 'lame'. It's mostly about tradition, and is a respectful nod to the origins of the Masons... anything other than that appears to me to be intended to aid fellow members across the globe in their services, charitable contributions, fundraising, comunications, etc. thru various signs, gestures, and probably some other things I don't know yet.
> 
> Many believe that Freemasonry can be traced all the way back to the Old Testament, placing the first lodge at King Solomon's temple... they been around a long time! My family has been Masons for generations, and I had the opportunity to see a lot of the good that get's done kinda behind the scenes and without fan fair. I reckon I am probably biased to some degree, but it is why I never thought of the group or it's secrets as lame or 'weird'. But like I said... I see where you are coming from.



Ditto


----------



## Sterlo58

Sorry but I already joined the Loyal Order of Water Buffaloes with Fred and Barney.


----------



## centerpin fan

THREEJAYS said:


> why would a christain join a bass club?



Until the Catholics, Orthodox, Presbyterians, Southern Baptists, etc. formally denounce bass clubs, that's not a good analogy.


----------



## THREEJAYS

centerpin fan said:


> Until the Catholics, Orthodox, Presbyterians, Southern Baptists, etc. formally denounce bass clubs, that's not a good analogy.


----------



## nimrod

Should Christians Join the Masonic Lodge?


By Jason Carlson

Rarely a week goes by when our ministry isn't asked a question about the nature and beliefs of Freemasonry and the Masonic Lodge. The questions that are especially concerning to me are the ones related to followers of Jesus Christ who have erroneously gotten caught up in the Masonic system. For example, one recent questioner wrote in and asked me, "Pastor Carlson, I recently found out that the Sr. Pastor of our church is a member of our local Masonic Lodge. I've heard mixed reports about Freemasonry and I don't know if my Pastor's involvement with this group should be of concern to me or not?" The answer to this question is simple, Freemasonry is a cult and followers of Jesus Christ have no business associating with the Masonic Lodge! 

Freemasonry as it is known today was formally organized in the 18th century in England and Scotland. What originally began as a trade guild for stonemasons gradually evolved into a religious organization that masks its true nature behind a façade of fraternal and charitable activities. 

The journey into Freemasonry begins in what is called the Blue Lodge. These are the local chapters of Freemasonry found in towns throughout America. The Blue Lodge consists of 3 levels or degrees (1st entered apprentice degree; 2nd fellowcraft degree; 3rd master mason degree). After going thru the 3 degrees of the Blue Lodge, the Mason has the choice to stay in the Blue Lodge or seek the advanced degrees thru the York Rite or Scottish Rite branches of Masonry (many Masons will do both branches). The Scottish Rite consists of 32 degrees and an honorary 33rd degree, while the York Rite consists of 13 degrees. For those who attain the 32nd degree of the Scottish Rite, they can then petition to become a Shriner. 

What must a person do to join the Masonic Lodge? It is in this process where the truly occult nature of Freemasonry begins to reveal itself. To begin, each prospective Mason must go thru an initiation process where they are blindfolded, with a noose placed around their neck, and led, with a sword to their chest, into the inner room of the Lodge where an altar is set-up. Behind the alter stands a man called "The Worshipful Master." He is the master of the Lodge and presides over the initiation ceremony. All prospective Masons will bow down before "The Worshipful Master" and say the following, "I am lost in darkness, and I need the light of Freemasonry." Following this declaration, the initiate is required to take a blood oath, swearing allegiance to the Lodge and pledging to protect all of the secrets of Masonry. This blood oath, repeated by every Mason who has joined the Lodge goes like this, "Binding myself under no less a penalty than having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by its roots, and buried in the rough sands of the seaâ€¦" Blood oaths such as this one are not limited to the initiation ceremony, but are repeated at each new degree as the Mason progresses through the secrets of Freemasonry. 

And what are the secrets one learns as they progress through the degrees of Freemasonry? It soon becomes apparent that Freemasonry is very much a religion and its goal is to unify the people and religions of the world under the banner of a universal religion, where creeds, doctrines, and individual faith are done away with and replaced by a universal brotherhood of good works. Dr. Albert Pike, the most universally accepted authority on Freemasonry who wrote what is termed by many to be the "Bible of Masonry" (Morals & Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Rite), said this, "Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion, and its teachings are instruction in religion" (p. 213). Pike also declared that Masonry is, "The universal, eternal, immutable religion, such as God planted it in the heart of universal humanity. No creed has ever been long lived that was not built upon this foundationâ€¦ The ministers of this religion are all Masonsâ€¦ Its sacrifices to God are good worksâ€¦ and perpetual efforts to attain to all the moral perfection of which man is capable" (p. 219). 

One thing that is important to understand is that Masons do not discriminate against people of any religious background- they only require that their members have a belief in a god, any god. The name of a person's god is not important to the Masonic Lodge. Why? It is unimportant because as you progress thru the degrees of Freemasonry you will discover and learn the true identity of god, the Masonic god. Manly P. Hall, another prominent Masonic leader declared, "The true Mason is not creed-bound. He realizes with the divine illumination of his lodge that as a Mason his religion must be universal: Christ, Buddha, or Mohammed, the name means little, for he recognizes only the light and not the bearer. He worships at every shrine, bows before every altar, whether in temple, mosque or cathedral, realizing with his truer understanding the oneness of all spiritual truth" ("The Lost Keys of Freemasonry", p. 65). 

Thus, the goal of Freemasonry is to discover the true identity of god. Masons say that the name of the true god was lost when the architect of Solomon's temple, Hiram Abiff, was murdered; and so, the goal of Masonry is to progress through the degrees of the Lodge to learn the true identity of god. This process further reveals the occult nature of Freemasonry. 

As you progress through the degrees of Masonry, to any discerning mind, it becomes readily apparent who the god of Freemasonry truly is. On the way to discovering the true identity of god, the Mason, in the 17th degree of the Scottish Rite, is first given a secret password and a sacred word that will allow them to continue their progression through the degrees of the Lodge; this sacred word of Masonry is "Abbadon". What or who is "Abbadon"? Well, in Revelation 9:11 God tells us who Abbadon is. Abbadon is the king of the demons in the pit of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -. And the name of this demon king is the sacred word, needed by all Masons, to advance in degrees so that they might discover the true identity of god. 

When the Mason finally reaches what is called "the Royal Arch degree" of the York Rite, they are told who the true god of Masonry really is. They are given the name of god that was lost during the building of Solomon's temple; and the secret name of the god of Masonry is "JAHBULON". The name JAHBULON comes from a combination of 3 deities: "JAH" stands for Yahweh, or Jehovah; "BUL" is a rendering of the name of the Canaanite god Baal; and "ON" is the Babylonian name of the Egyptian god Osiris. And this 3-headed monster, this union of Yahweh, Baal, and Osiris is supposedly the one true god above all other gods, whose identity was lost, but has been recovered by the Masons. As I noted earlier, to anyone with a discerning mind, it is clear that the Masonic Lodge is steeped in the occult. The identity of the 'true' god revealed in the blasphemous Masonic trinity is the ultimate verification of this fact. Whether the Mason realizes it or not, the god of Freemasonry is none other than Satan himself. 

Now, one of the most common questions we receive about Freemasonry has to do with the Shriners. This group- known for their charity work, the Shrine circus, the Shriners' children's hospitals, their presence in local parades- generally has a very positive public image. Again though, the truth behind the façade is much more sinister. 

To be initiated into the Shrine, to become a Shriner, as part of their blood oath at the altar of initiation, the Shriner must bow down, with his hands tied behind his back, and swear an oath in the name of "Allah, the God of our Fathers!" Now, it is important to remember that the Islamic god, Allah, is in no way connected to the true God of the Bible. Allah is a pagan, Arabic deity. Allah is a false god. Allah is not the God of Judaism and Christianity; and Allah's prophet, Mohammed, was a false prophet who has led millions of people astray! 

As if that wasn't bad enough, most Shriners have no idea about the symbolism portrayed on the red fez hats they proudly wear. Each red Fez worn by the Shriners has on the front an Islamic sword and crescent moon prominently displayed and encrusted with jewels. The crescent moon is the most common Islamic symbol. In fact, it is found on the top of every Muslim mosque around the world and on the flags of many Islamic nations. The crescent moon represents the god of Islam, Allah, who was the pagan moon deity of Mohammed's tribe, the Quraysh of Arabia. When Mohammed conquered Mecca in Saudi Arabia by force in 630 A.D. he destroyed all of the 360 pagan tribal deities in the Kaaba and set up his tribal deity, the moon god, Allah, as the chief deity of Arabia. Later, when he tried to convince the Jews and Christians of Arabia to worship Allah, they refused, knowing the true identity of Allah, and Mohammed then began his bloody conquest of the Arabian peninsula, slaughtering thousands by the sword, the very same Islamic sword celebrated on the Shriner's red fez! 

Now, with all of this being the true nature of the Masonic Lodge, there are some important questions that any Christian involved in Freemasonry needs to answer: 

First, how can a true Christian ever say that they are "lost in darkness and need the light of Freemasonry"? The Bible says in 1 John 1:4-7, "If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." If you are a genuine Christian you cannot be lost in the darkness. If Christ lives in you, you have the light that brings life to all men! 

Second, how can any faithful Christian bow down before a man called "The Worshipful Master"? In Matthew 6:24 Jesus said that we could not serve two masters. You can't claim to be a follower of Jesus Christ and then bow before a man you accept as your "Worshipful Master". 

Third, how can a Christian ever take a pagan blood oath? The Bible forbids the taking of any oath. In Matthew 5:33-37 Jesus says, "Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oath you have made to the Lord.' But I tell you, do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne, or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great Kingâ€¦ Simply let your 'yes' be 'yes' and your 'no' be 'no'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one." 

Furthermore, James 5:12 warns us that the swearing of oaths leads to judgment. Considering the pagan nature of the Masonic blood oaths, any true Christian should take James' warning very seriously. 

Fourth, how can any true Christian participate in another religion, in particular a man-made religion where salvation is based on good works and the principle gods are Abbadon- the demon king of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- and JAHBULON- a pagan, Satanic trinity? 

Fifth, for Christians involved in the Shriners, how do you justify swearing blood oaths to Allah and wearing a red fez hat that celebrates a pagan moon deity and the Islamic sword which has killed thousands of your brothers and sisters in Christ throughout history? Does this not trouble your conscience at all?

These are serious questions that any Christian involved in the Masonic Lodge, at any level, needs to answer. Freemasonry, to its very core, is a false, man-made religion that is totally incompatible with biblical Christianity. Any person who claims to follow Jesus Christ while also participating in the Masonic Lodge must repent and leave the Lodge at once. Jesus demands our full allegiance. We cannot serve two masters. This is an issue of eternal consequence. 

If you are a Christian and a Mason reading this article today, please know that you are in my prayers. Also, please remember, Jesus is the light of life and in him there is no darkness (John 8:12). He alone is the only hope of the world, the only source of salvation. We cannot earn or work for our own salvation. It is only found in the free gift of Jesus Christ, bought and paid for on the cross of Calvary, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith- and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). Ultimately all of us will bow down before the true Worshipful Master, Jesus Christ (Revelation 5:1-14). My prayer for you today is that you will recognize this truth before it's too late, repent of your involvement in the Lodge, and once again make Jesus the one true Lord of your life.


----------



## Head East

Anti-masonry is almost as old as Free and "Accepted" masonry.   Anti-masonic thought over the past three ....centuries...  is typically: accusations of anti-Christian or satanic objectives, and/or accusations of political and social manipulation.  

If simply using the search engine de jour to find something to post here that will garner a persons point of view, I offer the following for consideration:  

Again, you have heard that the ancients were told,  "You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord." But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. But let your statement be, "Yes, yes" or "No, no"; and anything beyond these is of evil. (Matthew 5:33-37)

This is a difficult piece of scripture to reconcile for we Christians who are also Masons. Many anti-Masonic sources try to say that this is definitive proof of the "sin" which is Freemasonry. There are those who believe wholeheartedly that this comes to mean that Oaths of any kind are evil, and of the Devil. By this reasoning, they would also come around and say that Freemasonry must then be of the Devil.

Christ reminded us here of the importance of fulfilling our vows, our oaths before God. Every time a President is inaugurated here in the United States, as it is with leaders and rulers in other countries, they take an oath of office, to uphold the law and the traditions of their people. Is this oath wrong? No, for it is a solemn oath. The kind of oath-swearing that we are warned of in Matthew 5:33-37 is of a flippant kind. You hear people say things like, "Well, by God we'll beat those Blue Devils on the gridiron tonight!" That is the kind of oaths that we are warned of. These oaths have no meaning, no honor. They are an abuse of God's name as if they had swore a curse.
Therefore, I turn your attention to another part of scripture:

"For men swear by one greater than themselves, and with them an oath given as confirmation is an end of every dispute. Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath." (Hebrews 6:16)
God Himself made an oath to his people, knowing that in that oath He would never lie to them. God is unchanging in all things. We recognize that, as well as the strength found in making a true oath. Masonic oaths are a true oath. They are taken with much prayer, and much contemplation. We study the words and what they mean in our lives. The words are in turn integrated into who we are as men as and as Masons.

If we were to hold ourselves to a total lack of oaths, where would we be? There would be no vows of any kind, such as wedding vows. Oaths of office and of service as well as pledges of allegiance and loyalty would all be stricken. This was never God's intention. Solemn oaths are an expression of our desire to live by God's Will and plan for our lives. In solemn oaths, we beg God's strength and support, for we don't pledge a solemn by God (as if He were ours to pledge by), rather we pledge a solemn oath to God that we will obey Him with His help. There is a vast difference between the two.

Bro. D. David Will, Jr. 32°, KT
Marshall Union #8 - Moundsville, WV


----------



## Head East

Congrats to you!   best wishes in your travels. 



CrazyCatfish said:


> ************ just wanted to update everyone **********
> 
> i stood my proficiency on my EA degree last night and passed with flying colors.....
> 
> i really enjoyed the lecture on the fellow craft degree and look forward to listening and learning and being coached  as i progress further in my degree work...
> 
> come join us sometime >> springville lodge # 153
> -powder springs, ga


----------



## Artfuldodger

I guess the main issue I would personally have with Freemasonry is not oaths. I would not worry about my fellow lodge member praying to a different God than me either. That's his prerogative and part of the way the organization is set up.
My problem as a Christian would be saying:  I am lost in darkness, and I need the light. The "light" being anything but the "light" or "truth" of Jesus.

I can find guidance and help by reading Yoga, Confucius, Dale Carnegie, & Norman Vincent Peale. The latter two may touch on Christianity and taught great living advice but I wouldn't look for them for the "truth & light."


----------



## Head East

It's not for me to decide what you or anyone else should think.  It occurs to me the answer is contained within the question.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I'm going to share my findings on the "truth & light" with everyone and I hope everyone will share their findings with me. It is no secret.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Head East said:


> It's not for me to decide what you or anyone else should think.  It occurs to me the answer is contained within the question.



I agree we all have to walk that lonesome valley for ourselves.


----------



## ONETREEDOG

Any religon that does not accept that jesus christ is only way, the truth and son of god is a satanic group. Put your time in faith in god the father of jesus and not some " secret society." jesus christ has nothing to hide and you can believe that!


----------



## hoghunter1

nimrod said:


> Should Christians Join the Masonic Lodge?
> 
> 
> By Jason Carlson
> 
> Rarely a week goes by when our ministry isn't asked a question about the nature and beliefs of Freemasonry and the Masonic Lodge. The questions that are especially concerning to me are the ones related to followers of Jesus Christ who have erroneously gotten caught up in the Masonic system. For example, one recent questioner wrote in and asked me, "Pastor Carlson, I recently found out that the Sr. Pastor of our church is a member of our local Masonic Lodge. I've heard mixed reports about Freemasonry and I don't know if my Pastor's involvement with this group should be of concern to me or not?" The answer to this question is simple, Freemasonry is a cult and followers of Jesus Christ have no business associating with the Masonic Lodge!
> 
> Freemasonry as it is known today was formally organized in the 18th century in England and Scotland. What originally began as a trade guild for stonemasons gradually evolved into a religious organization that masks its true nature behind a façade of fraternal and charitable activities.
> 
> The journey into Freemasonry begins in what is called the Blue Lodge. These are the local chapters of Freemasonry found in towns throughout America. The Blue Lodge consists of 3 levels or degrees (1st entered apprentice degree; 2nd fellowcraft degree; 3rd master mason degree). After going thru the 3 degrees of the Blue Lodge, the Mason has the choice to stay in the Blue Lodge or seek the advanced degrees thru the York Rite or Scottish Rite branches of Masonry (many Masons will do both branches). The Scottish Rite consists of 32 degrees and an honorary 33rd degree, while the York Rite consists of 13 degrees. For those who attain the 32nd degree of the Scottish Rite, they can then petition to become a Shriner.
> 
> What must a person do to join the Masonic Lodge? It is in this process where the truly occult nature of Freemasonry begins to reveal itself. To begin, each prospective Mason must go thru an initiation process where they are blindfolded, with a noose placed around their neck, and led, with a sword to their chest, into the inner room of the Lodge where an altar is set-up. Behind the alter stands a man called "The Worshipful Master." He is the master of the Lodge and presides over the initiation ceremony. All prospective Masons will bow down before "The Worshipful Master" and say the following, "I am lost in darkness, and I need the light of Freemasonry." Following this declaration, the initiate is required to take a blood oath, swearing allegiance to the Lodge and pledging to protect all of the secrets of Masonry. This blood oath, repeated by every Mason who has joined the Lodge goes like this, "Binding myself under no less a penalty than having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by its roots, and buried in the rough sands of the sea…" Blood oaths such as this one are not limited to the initiation ceremony, but are repeated at each new degree as the Mason progresses through the secrets of Freemasonry.
> 
> And what are the secrets one learns as they progress through the degrees of Freemasonry? It soon becomes apparent that Freemasonry is very much a religion and its goal is to unify the people and religions of the world under the banner of a universal religion, where creeds, doctrines, and individual faith are done away with and replaced by a universal brotherhood of good works. Dr. Albert Pike, the most universally accepted authority on Freemasonry who wrote what is termed by many to be the "Bible of Masonry" (Morals & Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Rite), said this, "Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion, and its teachings are instruction in religion" (p. 213). Pike also declared that Masonry is, "The universal, eternal, immutable religion, such as God planted it in the heart of universal humanity. No creed has ever been long lived that was not built upon this foundation… The ministers of this religion are all Masons… Its sacrifices to God are good works… and perpetual efforts to attain to all the moral perfection of which man is capable" (p. 219).
> 
> One thing that is important to understand is that Masons do not discriminate against people of any religious background- they only require that their members have a belief in a god, any god. The name of a person's god is not important to the Masonic Lodge. Why? It is unimportant because as you progress thru the degrees of Freemasonry you will discover and learn the true identity of god, the Masonic god. Manly P. Hall, another prominent Masonic leader declared, "The true Mason is not creed-bound. He realizes with the divine illumination of his lodge that as a Mason his religion must be universal: Christ, Buddha, or Mohammed, the name means little, for he recognizes only the light and not the bearer. He worships at every shrine, bows before every altar, whether in temple, mosque or cathedral, realizing with his truer understanding the oneness of all spiritual truth" ("The Lost Keys of Freemasonry", p. 65).
> 
> Thus, the goal of Freemasonry is to discover the true identity of god. Masons say that the name of the true god was lost when the architect of Solomon's temple, Hiram Abiff, was murdered; and so, the goal of Masonry is to progress through the degrees of the Lodge to learn the true identity of god. This process further reveals the occult nature of Freemasonry.
> 
> As you progress through the degrees of Masonry, to any discerning mind, it becomes readily apparent who the god of Freemasonry truly is. On the way to discovering the true identity of god, the Mason, in the 17th degree of the Scottish Rite, is first given a secret password and a sacred word that will allow them to continue their progression through the degrees of the Lodge; this sacred word of Masonry is "Abbadon". What or who is "Abbadon"? Well, in Revelation 9:11 God tells us who Abbadon is. Abbadon is the king of the demons in the pit of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -. And the name of this demon king is the sacred word, needed by all Masons, to advance in degrees so that they might discover the true identity of god.
> 
> When the Mason finally reaches what is called "the Royal Arch degree" of the York Rite, they are told who the true god of Masonry really is. They are given the name of god that was lost during the building of Solomon's temple; and the secret name of the god of Masonry is "JAHBULON". The name JAHBULON comes from a combination of 3 deities: "JAH" stands for Yahweh, or Jehovah; "BUL" is a rendering of the name of the Canaanite god Baal; and "ON" is the Babylonian name of the Egyptian god Osiris. And this 3-headed monster, this union of Yahweh, Baal, and Osiris is supposedly the one true god above all other gods, whose identity was lost, but has been recovered by the Masons. As I noted earlier, to anyone with a discerning mind, it is clear that the Masonic Lodge is steeped in the occult. The identity of the 'true' god revealed in the blasphemous Masonic trinity is the ultimate verification of this fact. Whether the Mason realizes it or not, the god of Freemasonry is none other than Satan himself.
> 
> Now, one of the most common questions we receive about Freemasonry has to do with the Shriners. This group- known for their charity work, the Shrine circus, the Shriners' children's hospitals, their presence in local parades- generally has a very positive public image. Again though, the truth behind the façade is much more sinister.
> 
> To be initiated into the Shrine, to become a Shriner, as part of their blood oath at the altar of initiation, the Shriner must bow down, with his hands tied behind his back, and swear an oath in the name of "Allah, the God of our Fathers!" Now, it is important to remember that the Islamic god, Allah, is in no way connected to the true God of the Bible. Allah is a pagan, Arabic deity. Allah is a false god. Allah is not the God of Judaism and Christianity; and Allah's prophet, Mohammed, was a false prophet who has led millions of people astray!
> 
> As if that wasn't bad enough, most Shriners have no idea about the symbolism portrayed on the red fez hats they proudly wear. Each red Fez worn by the Shriners has on the front an Islamic sword and crescent moon prominently displayed and encrusted with jewels. The crescent moon is the most common Islamic symbol. In fact, it is found on the top of every Muslim mosque around the world and on the flags of many Islamic nations. The crescent moon represents the god of Islam, Allah, who was the pagan moon deity of Mohammed's tribe, the Quraysh of Arabia. When Mohammed conquered Mecca in Saudi Arabia by force in 630 A.D. he destroyed all of the 360 pagan tribal deities in the Kaaba and set up his tribal deity, the moon god, Allah, as the chief deity of Arabia. Later, when he tried to convince the Jews and Christians of Arabia to worship Allah, they refused, knowing the true identity of Allah, and Mohammed then began his bloody conquest of the Arabian peninsula, slaughtering thousands by the sword, the very same Islamic sword celebrated on the Shriner's red fez!
> 
> Now, with all of this being the true nature of the Masonic Lodge, there are some important questions that any Christian involved in Freemasonry needs to answer:
> 
> First, how can a true Christian ever say that they are "lost in darkness and need the light of Freemasonry"? The Bible says in 1 John 1:4-7, "If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." If you are a genuine Christian you cannot be lost in the darkness. If Christ lives in you, you have the light that brings life to all men!
> 
> Second, how can any faithful Christian bow down before a man called "The Worshipful Master"? In Matthew 6:24 Jesus said that we could not serve two masters. You can't claim to be a follower of Jesus Christ and then bow before a man you accept as your "Worshipful Master".
> 
> Third, how can a Christian ever take a pagan blood oath? The Bible forbids the taking of any oath. In Matthew 5:33-37 Jesus says, "Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not break your oath, but keep the oath you have made to the Lord.' But I tell you, do not swear at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne, or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King… Simply let your 'yes' be 'yes' and your 'no' be 'no'; anything beyond this comes from the evil one."
> 
> Furthermore, James 5:12 warns us that the swearing of oaths leads to judgment. Considering the pagan nature of the Masonic blood oaths, any true Christian should take James' warning very seriously.
> 
> Fourth, how can any true Christian participate in another religion, in particular a man-made religion where salvation is based on good works and the principle gods are Abbadon- the demon king of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- and JAHBULON- a pagan, Satanic trinity?
> 
> Fifth, for Christians involved in the Shriners, how do you justify swearing blood oaths to Allah and wearing a red fez hat that celebrates a pagan moon deity and the Islamic sword which has killed thousands of your brothers and sisters in Christ throughout history? Does this not trouble your conscience at all?
> 
> These are serious questions that any Christian involved in the Masonic Lodge, at any level, needs to answer. Freemasonry, to its very core, is a false, man-made religion that is totally incompatible with biblical Christianity. Any person who claims to follow Jesus Christ while also participating in the Masonic Lodge must repent and leave the Lodge at once. Jesus demands our full allegiance. We cannot serve two masters. This is an issue of eternal consequence.
> 
> If you are a Christian and a Mason reading this article today, please know that you are in my prayers. Also, please remember, Jesus is the light of life and in him there is no darkness (John 8:12). He alone is the only hope of the world, the only source of salvation. We cannot earn or work for our own salvation. It is only found in the free gift of Jesus Christ, bought and paid for on the cross of Calvary, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith- and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God- not by works, so that no one can boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9). Ultimately all of us will bow down before the true Worshipful Master, Jesus Christ (Revelation 5:1-14). My prayer for you today is that you will recognize this truth before it's too late, repent of your involvement in the Lodge, and once again make Jesus the one true Lord of your life.



I have been a mason for many years and I am also a Shriner. 99% of what this guy said is false and/or taken out of context. I've have NEVER uttered any phrase having to do with Allah. I have read through this thread and see more than one "southern baptist" claiming to know what we as masons do. This is pretty simple to me....I'm a Christian man who loves God and I believe Jesus is our savior. I also know that many of you that are casting judgement of a group of men without knowing them or what they do is something we are warned against. Now in my opinion if this man wants to join the lodge and find out for himself let him do just that without prejudice and judgement from those who watch too much history and discovery channel. 

To the OP I welcome you to the brotherhood and stand firm on your decision. Congrats on your EA and enjoy your Fellowcraft those are given to you however the masters will be taken from you lol. You will understand that after your masters degree. Good luck and god bless.


----------



## Artfuldodger

It's no different than Karate, Yoga, or Native American rituals. When you practice those you disconnect your  Christianity while in that mode and then return to Christianity after getting out of that mode.
Even the Boy Scouts allow members of other Gods to join so it's not that strange. 
I just wish y'all could share in "the truth & light."


----------



## centerpin fan

hoghunter1 said:


> Now in my opinion if this man wants to join the lodge and find out for himself let him do just that without prejudice and judgement from those who watch too much history and discovery channel.



1.  He decided to join the Masons before starting this thread.

2.  He asked for opinions.


----------



## brofoster

Well I hope they don't kill me cause I'm pretty black.  I am a Freemason and have been for some years now as a military man who has truly "traveled to foreign countries"!  I am baptized and saved.  My relationship with God through Jesus Christ comes first.   I believed all the horror stories and danced around Masonry for years.  That is until one of my uncles gave me a chest before he died.  Its contained the writing and rituals that were over 150 years old that belong my grandfather and his father before him all the way up until they were freed.  My people were not treated like average blacks back then in GA because of the respect my family gained through being leaders and civil servants through Masonry.  I will just say this and I will leave it alone God first, then Jesus, then family, then the Lodge.  Some brothers love Masonry so much that they stop going to church which sends the wrong message to those outside the lodge, or they love the brotherhood so much it takes center stage in their life.  Let people talk.  They don't have a heaven or - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - to put either one of us in.  
Brofoster
Chaplain ECJ #318
Melbourne FL
Holy Royal Arch Mason


----------



## leroy

Dana Young said:


> I thought about joining the masons but GOD warned me not to and thats all the opinion I needed but we MORONs don't need much since we are not able to think for our selfs or trust what GOD tells us. Pray and ask GOD but be ready for him to show you different than what you want to hear. May GOD bless you.



Same for me came under conviction filling out the application prayed about it and did more research and it was not for me and cannot see how it could be for any christian. Dana you had a excellent post in one of the treads of the past.


----------



## leroy

gtparts said:
			
		

> CC,
> My advice to you is quite simple.
> 
> Pour the energy, time, and the funds, that you would spend in Freemasonry, into your local church. Seems like your interest in Freemasons is a search for finding self-serving relationships, those that meet your needs. Grow your congregation by pouring those gifts from God into service for His kingdom, rather than a secular group with religious undertones. Masonry is temporal in nature even while doing good things. The blessings of serving God are eternal, now and forever. When good isn't good enough, seek the best.




Great advice!



_Posted  from  Gon.com App for  Android_


----------



## leroy

Artfuldodger said:


> I feel many Christian's views on Freemasonry when it comes to the "supreme being" concept vs their God is more along the lines of, God saying if you aren't with me you are against me. They might feel if you are going to let anyone join that doesn't believe in the same God as them, why not let Atheist join? To many it is the same difference. You are either Christian or Pagan.
> Why can't Atheist join if Freemasonry isn't about religion? Well when the rituals and the things one must learn to progress through the degrees require a belief in the "Great Architect", what choice does one have?
> Like I said, for me it's more the rituals than having brothers who aren't Christian.



in my research it seems FM puts all religions on the same level one no better than another no right or wrong only that you believe in a "supreme being". That was the question that I stopped at on the application wayyyy to open ended for me


----------



## Artfuldodger

leroy said:


> in my research it seems FM puts all religions on the same level one no better than another no right or wrong only that you believe in a "supreme being". That was the question that I stopped at on the application wayyyy to open ended for me



That's the way I see it too. It's like saying it is OK to believe in a false God.

Another thing if it's not a religious organization, don't require the belief in a God.


----------



## leroy

centerpin fan said:
			
		

> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by Artfuldodger
> 
> No, but in their defence, is there anything wrong with that mission?
> 
> Absolutely nothing wrong with the mission.
> 
> My point is this: leaving the "It's a cult/No, it's not" debate aside, why would a Christian want to join? Based on "The Mission", I don't see what Masonry offers that my church does not.



bingo!!


_Posted from Gon.com  App  for  Android_


----------



## leroy

Carp said:
			
		

> Quote:
> 
> Originally Posted by Doe Master
> 
> 
> 
> You don't have to be a Christian to be a Mason. You can be of any faith. You must believe in God.



you have to believe in A god, not necessarily God of the bible


_Posted from  Gon.com App for Android_


----------



## Throwback

I'm not a "joiner". 


T


----------



## leroy

one of the better post on this that i have ever read, written by Dana Young


I too had thought about joining the masons as so many of my ancesters had but GOD let me to know it was not anything I needed to be involved in. That being said do you think that satan would come out an let everyone involved in the lodge know it was one of his snares to capture christians? You have talked about how much good the masons and shriners do and I'll counteract with this that satan will throw in enough good things to disguise what he is doing and fool enough good christians into working for him without them even knowing it. It is even happening in (supposed) churches. they look good on the outside but they are really just fake immitations put up by satan that he uses to turn people away from the real GOD. I can't believe that so many preachers and Deacons become involved in these things, but I know they have been decieved. The Bible tells us to try the spirits and be sure that they are from GOD. ANY spirit that allows for more than one god is not from GOD. any spirit that denies that Jesus Is the only begotten son of God is not from GOD. The masons only have to believe in a supreme being that could be anything from Budda to aliens in ufos. God the great I AM the father of JESUS CHRIST is the one and only true GOD to Believe anything else is wrong. I honestly believe that all the christians that are involved with the masons would truely get down on their knees and ask GOD to show them if they were right by being in the masons and really listen to what God has to say about it, not what there carnal mind and body wants to do then they would get out according to what God has dealt with me on the masons.
Also to the preachers and deacons that has gotten involved in this Please ask GOD to show you the truth. I am Not Judging anyone I am just following the spirit of GOD. Let me add that just because a preacher or deacon says its good doesn't always mean they are right they are the same as anybody else except that they are called by GOD to do a work for him and if they get out of the spirit then they will make mistakes like anyother man. You see Preachers and Deacons as well as any christian you all have people following your examples don't you owe it to the lost or young christians to set a good example and listen to the spirit of GOD to stay away of satans snares. You most certainly owe it to the LORD. Remember their blood will be on your hands if you lead them down the wrong road so you better be sure you are on the straight and narrow path. Please think about this, is some club or fraternity worth possibly leading someone down the right path.
GOD loves you and so do I thats why after reading all these posts over the years on this subject I decided to post this. 
Dana


----------



## Tank1202

Woodsman69 said:


> Why a saved person would want to join a secret order of wanna be do-gooders I have no idea. I was asked to join years ago but the Holy Spirit wouldn't let me and I have never regretted it. BTW I have never met one who didn't have pride problems and I have never met one I really thought was saved.



You my friend was never ask. 2b1ask1


----------



## greg_n_clayton

I can tell ya one thang !! I have been scolded in the past for such as I am fixin to say !! The op of the "traveling man" post that is a sticky is a crook !! He done me wrong on a PSE bow, then told me untruths about it and I will never forget it !! Iffin that is typical of a "mason", then I want no part of them !! Any group that would condone such is beyond me !! I feel as if milkman invited me to tell my feelings on the subject over yonder in that thread.


----------



## clayservant

rjcruiser said:


> I know a lot of churches/pastors that do the same and are leading their congregation straight to hel!.
> 
> I think I'd get involved with the men at your church before joining a secret society...but that's just my opinion.



Amen , I agree 100%, well said. I would do a lot of research also.


----------



## Airborne28

CrazyCatfish said:


> honestly, i wasn't trying to start a holy war.. i am a christian and am born again and baptised and washed in the blood.




What sect of the 30,000 "correct" christian sects do you belong to?


----------



## BT Charlie

So, this ship may have sailed and my offering too little, too late.

My first son was quite ill when he was born. He needed a lot of help, and the Shriner's Children's Hospital provided some.  In response, I thought I would become a Shriner.  

The basic protocol, if memory serves, is to complete the first three degrees in the local lodge. This is basically rote memorization of different rites or doctrine, whatever you want to call it.  I completed this in 3 consecutive meetings.  By the
 way, when one gives you the third degree, I think this is the ceremony on which that was coined.

Then it was on to Sottish Rite, for 4 - 32, which I completed in short order.  The Shrine would have been the 33rd degree.

This little mind program of mine was interrupted by my confession of Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.  After going to church more often than not, participating in weekly Bible studies, and joyfully completing other acts out of 
obedience, my heart was not in Free masonry. As part of a men's Bible study, I was given an opportunity to renounce footholds in my life.  I renounced Free masonry and repented of it and other sin.

I did not publicly announce this, but many in the lodge were offended by my departure.  They sent a delegate to my office and I laid out books by Pike, writings about the Son of the Morning Star,  the Light, and such. It was quite simple. The teachings conflicted with the Bible.

I mean no free mason any offense.   I basically attended about six meetings before departing.  About a year later, another mason departed for similar reasons.

I was blown away later by a video on cults by Ankerberg(SP).  If you can view that, you will see the Mormons doing the same "secret" rituals new entrants do in the Masonic lodge.

I have no experience with racism, hatred or overt occult in Free Masonry, and have trouble believing those claims.  My turning point?  We know doctrine is either of Christ, or not.  In Masonry, Christ is not acknowledged as Lord, the narrow and exclusive gate, nor Glorified as such or for His love, sacrifice, atonement of sin, etc.

I hope the best for the op, other masons, particularly those who identify as Christians, and everyone else.  This is just a blurb on my experience and opinion.  Blessings.


----------



## clayservant

hoghunter1 said:


> I have been a mason for many years and I am also a Shriner. 99% of what this guy said is false and/or taken out of context. I've have NEVER uttered any phrase having to do with Allah. I have read through this thread and see more than one "southern baptist" claiming to know what we as masons do. This is pretty simple to me....I'm a Christian man who loves God and I believe Jesus is our savior. I also know that many of you that are casting judgement of a group of men without knowing them or what they do is something we are warned against. Now in my opinion if this man wants to join the lodge and find out for himself let him do just that without prejudice and judgement from those who watch too much history and discovery channel.
> 
> To the OP I welcome you to the brotherhood and stand firm on your decision. Congrats on your EA and enjoy your Fellowcraft those are given to you however the masters will be taken from you lol. You will understand that after your masters degree. Good luck and god bless.



I would ask what degree are you? some things are known only by the higher degrees.


----------



## BT Charlie

clayservant said:


> I would ask what degree are you? some things are known only by the higher degrees.



Brother was in the Shrine, he said, which would be 33 degree with none higher in Masonry -- is that correct?

Clay, you are correct -- at least in my experience in the Scottish Rite, 4 - 32 degrees.  Many Old Testament stories intertwined in these rituals.  The writings of Pike are likely google a ble if that is a word.  Much debate by defenders and opponents.

For me, it boiled down to a heart issue early in my Christian walk.  Christ was not singularly glorified.  Membership was a wide gate, which excluded only atheists.  If you believe in a God you can be considered.

The first degree does involve some weird garb, half nakedness and other oddities, like regarding a human Worshipful Master.  I forget the other dudes' titles.

Looking around, most of the guys were over 50 (horrors -- and younger than I now!) They weren't on fire for Christ, basking in mercy, desiring to spread that News.  That's where I want to be.... I began referring to Tuesdays as The Night Of The Living Dead, only slightly getting the eternal context and focusing on the geriatic quality of the membership.    They were whippersnappers in contrast now....  

In tbe third degree, you get knocked on your B hind.  While I was saved, I can still feel the desire to punch out the dude who dealt the blow. A second memory: they cleaned a lot of highway borrow pit.


----------



## clayservant

"The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Parts of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them, but it is intended that he shall imagine that he understands them. Their true implication is reserved for Adepts, the Princes of Masonry.”

–Albert Pike (Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council of the 33rd degree and Supreme Pontiff of Universal Freemasonry) “Morals and Dogma” 

"Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable, blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish souls? Doubt it not!"

[Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry]

"I do conscientiously and sincerely believe that the Order of Freemasonry, if not the greatest, is one of the greatest moral and political evils under which the Union is now laboring … a conspiracy of the few against the equal rights of the many … Masonry ought forever to be abolished. It is wrong – essentially wrong – a seed of evil, which can never produce any good.”

US President John Quincy Adams, “Letters on Freemasonry” 1833

"The institution of Masonry ought to be abandoned as one capable of much evil, and incapable of producing any good which might not be affected by safe and open means." -Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall


----------



## BT Charlie

clayservant said:


> "The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Parts of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them, but it is intended that he shall imagine that he understands them. Their true implication is reserved for Adepts, the Princes of Masonry.”
> 
> –Albert Pike (Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council of the 33rd degree and Supreme Pontiff of Universal Freemasonry) “Morals and Dogma”
> 
> "Lucifer, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darkness! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable, blinds feeble, sensual, or selfish souls? Doubt it not!
> 
> [Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry]
> 
> "I do conscientiously and sincerely believe that the Order
> of Freemasonry, if not the greatest, is one of the greatest moral and political evils under which the Union is now laboring … a conspiracy of the few against the equal rights of the many … Masonry ought forever to be abolished. It is wrong – essentially wrong – a seed of evil, which can never produce any good.”
> 
> US President John Quincy Adams, “Letters on Freemasonry” 1833
> 
> "The institution of Masonry ought to be abandoned as one
> capable of much evil, and incapable of producing any good which might not be affected by safe and open means." -Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall




Good job.  When Christian brothers in that temple take the time to read and evaluate the teachings, there can be only one conclusion.  Double minded, denial, deceived. Eyes covered by scales, not of Christ -- all of those are horrifying realizations on this freed slave train.

Transparency.   Honesty.  Fear and trembling, not shrieking and name calling.

Pike gives me the willies.  Shower time.


----------



## White Horse

Anti-Masonic screeds, including the ones posted in this thread, are always full of either ignorance, deliberate falsehood, or both. The alleged "preachers" who spew Anti-Masonic "literature" are as guilty of ignorance and deliberate falsehood as anyone. They are mostly in the business of attacking Freemasonry for the money they make selling books and videos. You who support such by buying their products and repeating their ignorance and falsehood are as guilty as they are.

Would men like George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Red Skelton, Danny Thomas, Ernest Borgnine, and Roy Clark, just to name a few, be involved in anything "Satanic" or "immoral" in any way? Use your brains for something besides filling space and you'll know the answer.


----------



## ryano

White Horse said:


> Anti-Masonic screeds, including the ones posted in this thread, are always full of either ignorance, deliberate falsehood, or both. The alleged "preachers" who spew Anti-Masonic "literature" are as guilty of ignorance and deliberate falsehood as anyone. They are mostly in the business of attacking Freemasonry for the money they make selling books and videos. You who support such by buying their products and repeating their ignorance and falsehood are as guilty as they are.
> 
> .



Yup. This ^


----------



## BT Charlie

White Horse said:


> Anti-Masonic screeds, including the ones posted in this thread, are always full of either ignorance, deliberate falsehood, or both. The alleged "preachers" who spew Anti-Masonic "literature" are as guilty of ignorance and deliberate falsehood as anyone. They are mostly in the business of attacking Freemasonry for the money they make selling books and videos. You who support such by buying their products and repeating their ignorance and falsehood are as guilty as they are.
> 
> Would men like George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt,
> Harry Truman, Red Skelton, Danny Thomas, Ernest Borgnine, and Roy Clark, just to name a few, be involved in anything "Satanic" or "immoral" in any way? Use your brains for something besides filling space and you'll know the answer.



My comments are simply my testimony.  I speak from knowledge and experience as a 32 degree mason in the Scottish Rite.  I received no payment or other profit
 from my comments.

At the end of the day, Pike wrote what he wrote.  And Masonry does not by its very charter seek to glorify Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of tbe world.  

A pursuit is singularly of Christ, or it is not.  

Let the wailing and gnashing of teeth continue.... Blessings to all.


----------



## White Horse

Albert Pike is always mentioned by Anti-Masons, who take his writings out of context and quote those out of context snippets in ways designed to make Pike appear to vindicate their claim that Masonry is "Satanic."

Question number one to anyone who claims that their Anti-Masonry is based on Pike's writings: Have you actually read his works, or are you merely quoting some alleged "preacher?" 

The same question applies to those who denounce Charles Darwin or those who preach on Islam or the Koran. Have you read it? Do you know what you are talking about, or is your information second or third hand?

Albert Pike, who incidentally was a devout Christian himself, spoke for Albert Pike alone. The preface to his most commonly cited work, Morals and Dogma, says:

"The teachings of these Readings are not sacramental, so far as they go beyond the realm of Moralty into those of other domains of Thought and Truth. The Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite uses the word "Dogma" in its true sense, of doctrine or teaching, and is not dogmatic in the odious sense of that term. Every one is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound."

Pike, Albert. Morals and Dogma. Charleston, South Carolina: Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, Southern Jurisdiction, 1880, 1906. Preface, p. iv.


----------



## Lead Poison

I'm not throwing insults, but I've seen and heard enough about the Freemasons that I want nothing to do with them.

I have a major issue with the "secretive" levels and indoctrinations having heard these from former masons who've shared their experiences here on this forum. 

Anything good one is willing to do to help another person can and should be done as part of the body of Christ. These should be done openly giving full glory to God. Churches and Christians can and do these things without the secret way of the masons.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Freemasonry's main goal is to aquire the Divine truth.  Brotherly love and relief are but the means to an end; the final design of our Institution is its third principle tenet, the imperial truth. 
Some of it's memebers are just looking only to its practical results, as seen in the every-day business of life,--to the noble charities which it dispenses, to the tears of widows which it has dried, to the cries of orphans which it has hushed, to the wants of the destitute which it has supplied. Those are all good things and you could also say the same things about some Christians and why they go to Church. Maybe because the Fish symbol looks good for business on the tailgate of their truck. 
All of that's fine for business, charity, and socializing but in either the Church or Lodge one should be seeking the "trugh & light." Both Masons and Christians sometimes forget the real reason or purpose of the organizations  in which they are members. In the Church we are suppose to share this "truth" with the world. In the Lodge one could get expelled.


----------



## BT Charlie

White Horse said:


> Albert Pike is always mentioned by Anti-Masons, who take his writings out of context and quote those out of context snippets in ways designed to make Pike appear to vindicate their claim that Masonry is "Satanic."
> 
> Question number one to anyone who claims that their Anti-Masonry is based on Pike's writings: Have you actually read his works, or are you merely quoting some alleged "preacher?"
> 
> The same question applies to those who denounce Charles Darwin or those who preach on Islam or the Koran. Have you read it? Do you know what you are talking about, or is your information second or third hand?
> 
> Albert Pike, who incidentally was a devout Christian himself, spoke for Albert Pike alone. The preface to his most commonly cited work, Morals and Dogma, says:
> 
> "The teachings of these Readings are not sacramental, so far as they go beyond the realm of Moralty into those of other domains of Thought and Truth. The Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite uses the word "Dogma" in its true sense, of doctrine or teaching, and is not dogmatic in the odious sense of that term. Every one is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever herein may seem to him to be untrue or unsound."
> 
> Pike, Albert. Morals and Dogma. Charleston, South Carolina: Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, Southern Jurisdiction, 1880, 1906. Preface, p. iv.



My testimony is simple.  Christ is Lord and Savior.  I have no hatred of anyone in my heart, and only wish the very best for individual masons in an eternal sense. 

(That is not to say I can't be provoked like other guys. I sin far too much, though I wish I did not.  I think of Clint Eastwood's character in "Unforgiven," Will Money:  I'm not like that, anymore.  But calamity comes suddenly without constant vigil, eh?)

To your question:  Yes, I have owned a leather bound copy of "Morals and Dogma," along with other original texts written by masons.  Yes, I've read them and, moreover, discussed them with my pastor and other Christ followers.  As I've said, I renounced masonry as a result of those efforts.  In addition, I donated those texts to my church, so that people can read what is stated and decide for themselves what is being taught in masonry.  

I was not a "super mason," but I humbly completed 32 degrees of masonry in short order.  I concluded then and testify now that masonry does not exhault or glorify Christ Jesus.  

A person could also say that participation in a billiards league, a softball league and a professional football fantasy league do not glorify Christ Jesus, either.  That is true. And plenty of people who say they are Christ followers participate in those other endeavors without suffering any eternal consequences.  

The distinction in my opinon is that those other three  endeavors do not require participants to meet and think in the dark while teaching that such participation is actually of the light.  Nor does shooting pool depend upon secret oaths, secret rituals, secret doctrines and a worshipful master or other secret authority figures.  Better for the soul to drink beer and shoot pool on Tuesdays than engage in the other, in my opinion, if one were to seek the lesser of two evils.

The part you've quoted from Pike clearly says Biblical doctrine is "odious," and that other information from greater sources of "Truth" and "Light" are being taught in the vernacular of masonry.  With a straight face, the worshipful master tested me before I finished the first degree.  Do you believe in God? I asked him, is it ok if I am Jewish or Mormon? He said yes, all who believe in God are welcome in masonry.  Many unjust wars have been fought in the name of Christ, he said, so masonry has the path of enlightment that will transcend the problems caused by religion.  He said masonry was not a religion, but entrants had to be religious at least to the extent they believed in one of many ways a person can worship God.   

With much love in my heart, I testify that masonry is simply not "of Christ" as it does not honor and glorify Him.  Masonry constructs a different view and dysfunctional order of the heavenlies.  It is not "on the level" with the Bible, and can't be "squared" with God's truth.  I intend no offense or malice in saying this, and so be it if such follows as a result.  

My hope and prayer for all masons is peace and joy in the knowledge of Christ, alone.   Peace.


----------



## BT Charlie

Artfuldodger said:


> Freemasonry's main goal is to aquire the Divine truth.  Brotherly love and relief are but the means to an end; the final design of our Institution is its third principle tenet, the imperial truth.
> Some of it's memebers are just looking only to its practical results, as seen in the every-day business of life,--to the noble charities which it dispenses, to the tears of widows which it has dried, to the cries of orphans which it has hushed, to the wants of the destitute which it has supplied. Those are all good things and you could also say the same things about some Christians and why they go to Church. Maybe because the Fish symbol looks good for business on the tailgate of their truck.
> All of that's fine for business, charity, and socializing but in either the Church or Lodge one should be seeking the "trugh & light." Both Masons and Christians sometimes forget the real reason or purpose of the organizations  in which they are members. In the Church we are suppose to share this "truth" with the world. In the Lodge one could get expelled.



Art, I can't make out what you're intending to communicate here.  Are you a mason? Have you taken a secret oath, on your life, with acknowledgement that your throat should be slashed if you ever divulge the secrets to others outside the temple?  

The Bible and such oaths cannot be reconciled.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BT Charlie said:


> Art, I can't make out what you're intending to communicate here.  Are you a mason? Have you taken a secret oath, on your life, with acknowledgement that your throat should be slashed if you ever divulge the secrets to others outside the temple?
> 
> The Bible and such oaths cannot be reconciled.



No i'm not a mason. My perspective is on finding the truth & light. As a Christian, I can only take one path which is through Jesus. There can only be one truth & light and it is shared among the world and is no secret.
Some things I've said earlier in this thread were:
If it's not a religion then why must one believe in the Great Architect of the Universe? Why have temples, altars, Enlightenment, going from darkness to light by rebirth,& Heavenly rewards for works?
Why are new initiates in darkness even if Christians? Why is the Bible only one of several "Volumes of Sacred Law?" Why have this Hiram Abiff character?
I don't personally believe it is a religious club but it treads too close for my comfort. 

I was just reading these verses and were compelled to put them here:
"No one lights a lamp and puts it in a place where it will be hidden, or under a bowl. Instead he puts it on its stand, so that those who come in may see the light. Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eyes are good, your whole body also is full of light. But when they are bad, your body also is full of darkness. See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness. Therefore, if your whole body is full of light, and no part of it dark, it will be completely lighted, as when the light of a lamp shines on you." LUKE 11:33-36

In other words why hide the way to "truth & light?" Share your light with everyone. 

My only wish is that we all are "enlightened", finding the truth & light. My intentions are to show my path to doing this is through Jesus and to share any knowledge I my acquire with my brothers. 
If any of my brothers can find this "Light" in Freemasonry then I wish them all the best, like you it's just not my path.
If any of my brothers do find this "Truth" I wish they would share it with me for I am a truth seeking brother also, although I'm not a traveling man nor have I ever been one. 
If anyone knows who is the "way, the truth and the light" follow him for true "ENLIGHTENMENT."


----------



## Artfuldodger

The history of Freemasonry informs us that there once existed a WORD of surpassing value, and claiming a profound veneration; that this Word was known to but few; that it was at length lost; and that a temporary substitute for it was adopted. But as the very philosophy of Masonry teaches us that there can be no death without a resurrection,--no decay without a subsequent restoration,--on the same principle it follows that the loss of the Word must suppose its eventual recovery.

In Christianity our Word was never lost but came to earth as a man. The resurrection part is true.


----------



## BT Charlie

Artfuldodger said:


> No i'm not a mason. My perspective is on finding the truth & light. As a Christian, I can only take one path which is through Jesus. There can only be one truth & light and it is shared among the world and is no secret.
> Some things I've said earlier in this thread were:
> If it's not a religion then why must one believe in the Great Architect of the Universe? Why have temples, altars, Enlightenment, going from darkness to light by rebirth,& Heavenly rewards for works?
> Why are new initiates in darkness even if Christians? Why is the Bible only one of several "Volumes of Sacred Law?"Why have this Hiram Abiff character?
> I don't personally believe it is a religious club but it treads too close for my comfort.
> 
> I was just reading these verses and were compelled to put them here:
> "No one lights a lamp and puts it in a place where it will be hidden, or under a bowl. Instead he puts it on its stand, so
> that those who come in may see the light. Your eye is the lamp of your body. When your eyes are good, your whole body also is full of light. But when they are bad, your body also is full of darkness. See to it, then, that the light within you is not darkness. Therefore, if your whole body is full of light, and no part of it dark, it will be completely lighted, as when the light of a lamp shines on you." LUKE 11:33-36
> 
> In other words why hide the way to "truth & light?" Share
> your light with everyone.
> 
> My only wish is that we all are "enlightened", finding the truth & light. My intentions are to show my path to doing this is through Jesus and to share any knowledge I my acquire with my brothers.
> If any of my brothers can find this "Light" in Freemasonry then I wish them all the best, like you it's just not my path. If any of my brothers do find this "Truth" I wish they
> would share it with me for I am a truth seeking brother also, although I'm not a traveling man nor have I ever been one.  If anyone knows who is the "way, the truth and the light" follow him for true "ENLIGHTENMENT."



Amen.

You have found the Way, the Truth, the Light in the One.  You testify of Christ.   What more are you searching for? Or is this like the old "Wagon Train" television series with Ward Bond -- you just keep wagon-training?  Blessings on you, Art.


----------



## ryano




----------



## quackwacker

Lead Poison said:


> I'm not throwing insults, but I've seen and heard enough about the Freemasons that I want nothing to do with them.
> 
> I have a major issue with the "secretive" levels and indoctrinations having heard these from former masons who've shared their experiences here on this forum.
> 
> Anything good one is willing to do to help another person can and should be done as part of the body of Christ. These should be done openly giving full glory to God. Churches and Christians can and do these things without the secret way of the masons.



Can you or anyone else in this conversation tell me one thing you have seen a Mason do that is bad?


----------



## BT Charlie

quackwacker said:


> Can you or anyone else in this conversation tell me one thing you have seen a Mason do that is bad?



QW, I wish each mason the very best.  All the guys I knew were pretty decent fellows.  

None was without foible or sin, like the rest of us.  

Of note in my short tenure:  One guy cheated on his wife, fled the state with his 
lover and was arrested for felony non-support.  He did not do what he did in the name of masonry, or otherwise blame Masonic doctrine for his decisions.

I was on a volunteer fire department with a couple of the 
masonic guys and they were good hands.  Drank like sailors, cussed like marines, fought fire hard.  Older guys. to seemed to enjoy the temple.

And no, I did not witness any mason overtly say he preferred Satan over Christ, 

or engage in witchcraft, or something I perceived as occult (but I'm no expert on that or a lot of other stuff.)

But "do anything bad" is a bit broad.  So my answer should be qualified ... You mean apart from participating in the rites, rituals and doctrine above? On a scale
 of " good to bad" failing to glorify Jesus would have to be regarded as not good, yes?

How about you, QW? Ever witness a mason do something bad in your presence?


----------



## Artfuldodger

BT Charlie said:


> Amen.
> 
> You have found the Way, the Truth, the Light in the One.  You testify of Christ.   What more are you searching for? Or is this like the old "Wagon Train" television series with Ward Bond -- you just keep wagon-training?  Blessings on you, Art.



Should I have stopped my quest for knowledge at the point of my salvation? I'm looking for guidance on living correctly and to become more like Jesus.
Other than that it's interesting how we all differ on our beliefs and the historical value of the people of the Bible. How it all fits together and how it plays out as prophesied.
Not everything is finished. I'm interested in how much input I have in my quest to live as a Christian as opposed to any guidance from the Holy Spirit in helping me. Many different beliefs on the Holy Spirit helping us vs "it's the Bible only." Many different beliefs on the power of prayer.
If it's just the Bible and nothing else then my quest better take me deeper into the "written word." If it's just the "Living Word" then my quest is over. I can close my Bible and we can shut down this forum.


----------



## White Horse

Sorry, Charlie, I don't agree with your interpretation of either Albert Pike or the Bible. At the very least you are sowing divisiveness among fellow Christians, since the vast majority of Freemasons are Christians. The leaders of many Christian denominations have found no inconsistency between Freemasonry and their faith. For example one of the finest men I have ever known was an ordained Southern Baptist minister and a Freemason.

Fundamentalism and its focus on certain parts of the Bible out of context causes many like you to say that certain denominations are not Christians, even though those denominations profess Jesus Christ as their savior just as you do.

I don't believe you actually read Pike. If you had you would know that even that passage about the "Light Bearer" that you Anti-Masons love to cite out of context was written from a Christian perspective.

I won't ever be able to change your mind, but perhaps someone will read these exchanges and investigate for themselves.


----------



## BT Charlie

WhiteHorse, thanks for your reply.

I respect that you are entitled to your beliefs and to express your opinion and to freely associate with whom you will.  I take no offense at your implication that I am a liar and a small minded fundamentalist.  I suppose in a lot of ways those comments are more true in God's eyes than false, as I  certainly human and remain subject to my imperfections.

I am not "anti-mason" at least in my own mind.  My testimony is simple.  Jesus is Lord and Savior.  There is no other way to the Father save for belief of the Son.  If that seems hateful to you or the other Church denominations you mention, I suggest that you explore why you are uncomfortable.  I haven't cited any passage of scripture that I recall here, so I am a bit bewildered how saying Christ is Lord is out of context or corrupt in any way.  If you can point me to scripture that says it is wrong to profess that Christ is Lord and Savior, for any reason, I will surely read it and consider it.

When the Bible says Christ is Lord and Savior, and Masonic rites, rituals and texts do not, it matters little what masonic apologists say in defense of masonry.  

I do recall now long discussions in the temple outlining what we were to say to Christ followers who would say stuff like Christ is Lord and Savior.  I recognize some of that in your comment.

Inasmuch as masonry takes up religion, particularly God, and establishes authority figures who must be obeyed in the Masonic temple (tell me where any misstatement of fact exists here, please) I would like to know where any activity in the temple worships Christ.  Is it really a safe harbor to think or believe it's not THAT kind of temple and such is not required?

I pray in Christ's name only the best for you in God's will for your life.


----------



## Artfuldodger

White Horse said:


> Sorry, Charlie, I don't agree with your interpretation of either Albert Pike or the Bible. At the very least you are sowing divisiveness among fellow Christians, since the vast majority of Freemasons are Christians. The leaders of many Christian denominations have found no inconsistency between Freemasonry and their faith. For example one of the finest men I have ever known was an ordained Southern Baptist minister and a Freemason.
> 
> Fundamentalism and its focus on certain parts of the Bible out of context causes many like you to say that certain denominations are not Christians, even though those denominations profess Jesus Christ as their savior just as you do.
> 
> I don't believe you actually read Pike. If you had you would know that even that passage about the "Light Bearer" that you Anti-Masons love to cite out of context was written from a Christian perspective.
> 
> I won't ever be able to change your mind, but perhaps someone will read these exchanges and investigate for themselves.



Is it true that during one of the initiation rituals, the candidate must say something along the lines of " I am lost, show me the truth" or light? Then the same candidate has to go through a death and resurrection  act?

How does a Christian justify doing this if he has already been Baptized in the Christian faith? How do you say you are lost knowing full well you aren't? Is it just another path to a different truth & light? Is this how you separate the two paths to the truth because it's two different truths?
I guess that's the confusing part to me. It is true that I don't know what the other "truth/light is. I don't fully understand the other truth. Why can't the other truth be shared with all the creation?


----------



## centerpin fan

White Horse said:


> The leaders of many Christian denominations have found no inconsistency between Freemasonry and their faith.



See posts 78, 230 and 234.


----------



## BT Charlie

Artfuldodger said:


> Should I have stopped my quest for knowledge at the point of my salvation? I'm looking for guidance on living correctly and to become more like Jesus.
> Other than that it's interesting how we all differ on our beliefs and the historical value of the people of the Bible. How it all fits together and how it plays out as prophesied.
> Not everything is finished. I'm interested in how much input I have in my quest to live as a Christian as opposed to any guidance from the Holy Spirit in helping me. Many different beliefs on the Holy Spirit helping us vs "it's the
> Bible only." Many different beliefs on the power of prayer.
> If it's just the Bible and nothing else then my quest better take me deeper into the "written word." If it's just the "Living Word" then my quest is over. I can close my Bible
> and we can shut down this forum.



I apologize Art if I offended you.  They let em up after immersion baptism, for a reason.  Quest on in peace.


----------



## centerpin fan

*The way to settle this ...*

BT Charlie vs. White Horse in a "loser leave town" match.


----------



## White Horse

That's pretty funny, Centerpin, but ultimately a "winner leaves town" match would not settle anything. Each man has to study these matters for himself and make up his own mind.

I have read each and every post in this thread including the screeds you posted about the position on Freemasonry some of those alleged churches have taken.

BT Charlie is more gentlemanly than most Anti-Masons but even he slips in several of their common tactics in his screeds. For example "bowing down to the Worshipful Master." Of course, if he actually was a Mason at one time as he claims, he would know that "Worshipful Master" is merely the president of the local craft lodge for one year. No one is asked to "bow" to or "obey" the WM.

Another common Anti-Mason tactic is to claim complete sincerity and to pray for everybody. Every answer I give however leads to several more Anti-Masonic screeds with more stuff for me to reply to. The idea is to wear me out with all the replying.

Ultimately none of you know BT Charlie or White Horse. Make up your own minds about Christianity, Masonry, or any other subject. Do all your homework.


----------



## centerpin fan

White Horse said:


> I have read each and every post in this thread including the screeds you posted about the position on Freemasonry some of those alleged churches have taken.



Alleged?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Some forumites are Anti-Masons and some of us are just on a quest of enlightenment in all aspects of life. We are looking for any and all answers. As a Christian it is sometimes hard or frowned upon to look elsewhere. Thus my question about a different truth.
I don't believe BT Charlie is on some type of Anti-Mason campaign. Maybe he is but I believe he is sincere in wanting all the best for Christian Masons and all Masons for that matter. I don't see any malice in his responses. I don't think he is offering fake prayers for masons and neither is he trying to wear you out.
I compliment you for hanging in here and answering our questions. Don't "wear out" quite yet.


----------



## BT Charlie

White Horse said:


> That's pretty funny, Centerpin, but ultimately a "winner leaves town" match would not settle anything. Each man has to study these matters for himself and make up his own mind.
> 
> I have read each and every post in this thread including the screeds you posted about the position on Freemasonry some of those alleged churches have taken.
> 
> BT Charlie is more gentlemanly than most Anti-Masons but even he slips in several of their common tactics in his screeds. For example "bowing down to the Worshipful Master." Of course, if he actually was a Mason at one time as he claims, he would know that "Worshipful Master" is merely the president of the local craft lodge for one year. No one is asked to "bow" to or "obey" the WM.
> 
> Another common Anti-Mason tactic is to claim complete sincerity and to pray for everybody. Every answer I give however leads to several more Anti-Masonic screeds with
> more stuff for me to reply to. The idea is to wear me out with all the replying.
> 
> Ultimately none of you know BT Charlie or White Horse. Make up your own
> minds about Christianity, Masonry, or any other subject. Do all your homework.




CP is a rascal, that is for sure.  WhiteHorse can put the beat down on me, no question. At the end of the day, I would like to think I am contending only for WhiteHorse and certainly not against him.

Jesus is Lord and Savior.  The test of whether that is true and accurately represents the Bible is not whether I can recall correctly each detail of masonry.  We are, as you say, mere men.

I am sorry my recollection does not ring true to you.  I stumbled on this thread and have not spent a lot of time crafting comments.  The experience is genuine, as are the flaws in recall or turns of phrase.

My grandfather died when I was very young. We were very close and I missed him in my youth. He may have represented the greatest man I ever knew for decades. 

He was a mason.  I ached for him for many years.  I wanted to honor him.  I hoped by entering the masons he would somehow be proud and honored.  I  had a hole in my life I couldn't explain.  My own infant son was devastatingly ill, and my young wife and I received care from the Shrine.  I felt gratitude and perhaps obligation to repay.  In midst of all, I thus entered the temple.  I was interviewed by the WM and told him these things. He welcomed me in.

I later struggled not so much as mason v Christ follower but in my heart.  The guys in the temple were not "bad" and I liked them.  I did not want to offend them. At the same time, the hole in my life was revealed to be Christ, which by His mercy was now filled.  My heart now longed for Jesus.  It made no sense to remain where Christ is not declared Lord and Savior.

Yet my struggle was with the whisper that going with Christ alone, and washing my hands of all other talk of religion, would dishonor my dear grandfather, who represented the greatest person I'd ever known.  Would my renunciation of masonry indict my own hero?  Could it be he is saved and we'll be together in Heaven?  I hope it will be so. Thus it is not lightly or without consequence that I say again Christ is Lord and Savior.  I trust my granddad would be proud that I struggled in Christ and seek to singularly glorify Him.

Again, WH, I wish you the best in Christ as God wills for you. The same is true for each mason.


----------



## White Horse

I would not beat you, BT, even if I could. I respect your efforts to keep this discussion civil, and wish you all the best.

CP, I used "alleged" because I know nothing about the churches you cite, and especially I have no knowledge of their positions on any subject. The only exception would be the Southern Baptists. As I understand it, the latest word on Freemasonry from the Home Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention was that membership in Masonry is an individual matter, not a church one. 

Artful, I don't know much. One book I would suggest to you and all interested parties is:

Robinson, John J. A Pilgrim's Path: Freemasonry and the Religious Right. New York: M. Evans and Co., Inc. 1993.

And, as I have mentioned above, don't denounce Albert Pike or any other author unless and until you have actually read his works. As you know, many who claim to be "preachers" have not read the Bible. Doing that makes them look like fools to those who have read it, and, what's worse, enables them to lead the equally ignorant in the wrong direction.


----------



## centerpin fan

White Horse said:


> As I understand it, the latest word on Freemasonry from the Home Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention was that membership in Masonry is an individual matter, not a church one.



There's more to it than that:


19. What is the SBC's stance on "Freemasonry?"

The SBC passed a resolution in 1992 opposing membership and participation in organizations that contradict the Bible (http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/amResolution.asp?ID=328), but these resolutions are not binding upon local churches.  

In its 1993 report, the SBC stated that there were aspects of Freemasonry that are incompatible with Christianity.  The main conclusion of the report states:

We conclude that many tenets and teachings of Freemasonry are not compatible with Christianity or Southern Baptist doctrine.

http://sbc.net/aboutus/faqs.asp#19


----------



## Artfuldodger

White Horse said:


> I would not beat you, BT, even if I could. I respect your efforts to keep this discussion civil, and wish you all the best.
> 
> CP, I used "alleged" because I know nothing about the churches you cite, and especially I have no knowledge of their positions on any subject. The only exception would be the Southern Baptists. As I understand it, the latest word on Freemasonry from the Home Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention was that membership in Masonry is an individual matter, not a church one.
> 
> Artful, I don't know much. One book I would suggest to you and all interested parties is:
> 
> Robinson, John J. A Pilgrim's Path: Freemasonry and the Religious Right. New York: M. Evans and Co., Inc. 1993.
> 
> And, as I have mentioned above, don't denounce Albert Pike or any other author unless and until you have actually read his works. As you know, many who claim to be "preachers" have not read the Bible. Doing that makes them look like fools to those who have read it, and, what's worse, enables them to lead the equally ignorant in the wrong direction.



His book does get good reviews. I'm not sure it would help me as I don't think Masons are devil worshippers. 
Any input to the question I asked earlier about being lost and the death and rebirth in Freemasonry?
I would like some input from Christian Masons as how do they justify that with their own Christian rebirth? Do they parallel each other as being the same rebirth or are they two different rebirths, each leading to a different truth.
We as Christians must be reborn to find the truth. Is the Freemasonry rebirth something totally different?


----------



## White Horse

I have no comment to make on what you ask about other than to say that I found no conflict in anything in Freemasonry and any of my own religious belief.

I have read a good bit on Masonic subjects, including Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike and the Robinson book I recommended. Albert Pike throughout professes his own Christian belief. He belonged to the Episcopal church, and of course to some Fundamentalists that is the same as having no faith at all.

Over and over I say: read and study for yourself, and make your own decisions.


----------



## BT Charlie

White Horse said:


> I would not beat you, BT, even if I could. I respect your efforts to keep this discussion civil, and wish you all the best.
> 
> CP, I used "alleged" because I know nothing about the churches you cite, and especially I have no knowledge of their positions on any subject. The only exception would be the Southern Baptists. As I understand it, the latest word on Freemasonry from the Home Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention was that membership in Masonry is an individual matter, not a church one.
> 
> Artful, I don't know much. One book I would suggest to you and all interested parties is:
> 
> Robinson, John J. A Pilgrim's Path: Freemasonry and the Religious Right. New York: M. Evans and Co., Inc. 1993.
> 
> And, as I have mentioned above, don't denounce Albert Pike or any other author unless and until you have actually read his works. As you know, many who claim to be "preachers" have not read the Bible. Doing that makes them look like fools to those who have read it, and, what's worse, enables them to lead the equally ignorant in the wrong direction.



Thank you, WH.  This has nothing to do with our conversation, and it is none of my business.  But in truth it would give this old man some comfort if you'd say how you feel about the idea that Christ is your Lord and Savior.  Funny how praying for folks gets a guy attached ... concerned... and all.


----------



## centerpin fan

White Horse said:


> I have read a good bit on Masonic subjects, including Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike and the Robinson book I recommended. Albert Pike throughout professes his own Christian belief. He belonged to the Episcopal church, and of course to some Fundamentalists that is the same as having no faith at all.



You've mentioned Fundamentalists twice and referenced a book about the "Religious Right".  Do you believe that only Fundamentalist Christians and the "Religious Right" oppose Freemasonry?


----------



## White Horse

BT, I do not like to discuss my own beliefs in a public forum. To me these matters are truly sacred, too sacred to be cast about indiscriminately. Besides that, I am very aware of the many ways men's religious belief has been used over the centuries to persecute them.

With that said I will tell you that I believe Jesus Christ was Divine, that He and I have a personal relationship, even though I am unworthy to remove His shoes, and that I very imperfectly try to live by His precepts, especially those laid down in the 25th Chapter of Matthew.


----------



## White Horse

CP, I'm not entirely sure about what you are asking, but as I am also sure you have gathered, my main problems with Anti-Masons are that they tend to argue from ignorance, and that they tend to use tactics that are designed to sound good to the ignorant.

Of course as you well know Anti-Masons have sprung up over the centuries from a number of different sources and with a number of different motivations. The Catholic church has long had its own bias against Freemasonry, though a Catholic no longer has to worry about being excommunicated because of membership in a Masonic Lodge.

"Fundamentalism" has to do with claims that the Bible is literally true, and with claims about the proper structure and content of religious belief and worship. Fundamentalists tend to claim that Freemasonry is a religion, which it is not, or that part of Freemasonry is Satanic, which it is not. 

Gotta get back to work, fellows!


----------



## centerpin fan

White Horse said:


> Fundamentalists tend to claim that Freemasonry is a religion ...



... as do the Catholics, the Orthodox and the Presbyterians I linked to in post 230.  None of them would be considered Fundamentalists.  I just wasn't sure why you kept mentioning them.


----------



## BT Charlie

It may be worth noting that my experience was limited to the Rocky Mountain west.  

I wonder if as a general rule we in the mounain West simply lack the social graces of southern culture, or if it was just me in particular.  I also think we in the West were not as focused on doctrinal distinction, as some are here in the Bible Belt.  Ultimately, I am wondering if the autonomy of the local temple, driven by local custom and personalities, does not account for distinction in perception of what temple life is about.

Perhaps masonry is like a proverbial elephant, with entrants like the blind folded men holding certain parts of the same.  

No witness receives or relays information identical to that which the one next to him receives and relays.  Yet all could be accurately describing what they are experiencing.  A witness describing the elephants eye could be thought a liar by one holding the tail.  Clarity is important to achieve.

Christ removed the blindfold from my heart, I guess.   My conscience requires that I share publicly this which privately I too believe to be sacred, to be true, and to be of eternal consequence.  But I do so in mercy, perhaps unwanted and offensive to those for whom it is intended.  It will be extended nevertheless, until a mason slits my throat or disembowels me or whatever else the oaths say should befall one who walks away and talks. 

In the end, I wasn't a very good mason, of that there is no contest.  But I do not believe that is what makes masons mad when I shared my experience here.  I may not be a very good witness for Christ, Jesus, but my testimony remains: Jesus is Lord and Savior. When that is written over every portal to the meeting rooms of masons, when the crucifix replaces other symbols, and when the Holy Bible is central, then perhaps ...


----------



## White Horse

I don't know about the Rocky Mountain area, but I do know that there are huge differences in Masonry in various states and in other countries. I have experienced such in four states (Georgia, Florida, North Carolina, and Virginia) and in Scotland.

BT, you do know that the Masonic oaths are not enforceable by any Masonic body or group, or individual Mason, and rather are more in the nature of "may this happen if I should...?" You need never fear any retribution.

You also know, I hope, that there are several specifically Christian Masonic groups?


----------



## BT Charlie

White Horse said:


> I don't know about the Rocky Mountain area, but I do know that there are huge differences in Masonry in various states and in other countries. I have experienced such in four states (Georgia, Florida, North Carolina, and Virginia) and in Scotland.
> 
> BT, you do know that the Masonic oaths are not enforceable by any Masonic body or group, or individual Mason, and rather are more in the nature of "may this happen if I should...?" You need never fear any retribution.
> 
> You also know, I hope, that there are several specifically Christian Masonic groups?



White Horse, it is interesting you have traveled so widely and experienced differences among localities.  It makes sense to me.  In looking at some of CP's links, I did see that some bodies have specifically put Christ on the throne, where we know He lives and ministers to us today.  I did not know that before today, and must say where there is Christ there is hope indeed!

The "old" boys who took me in were pretty bummed out when I departed. They sent a guy over to talk me out of it, and I was very sorry to disappoint him and the others.  I did like them.  I never felt threatened by them, but they did knock me on B-hind at the master mason level...which didn't scare me much as irk me. (Still today - ha! Will pride ever cease?) But I do confess being uneasy about the blood oaths and running intonwho some guys down here who might react poorly to those violating them.

So far as I can recall, my comments here on this thread are the first I've really ever discussed my experiences in a pseudo public way among strangers.  I don't like bashing anybody, even an organization that would have me as a member. (ha) This talk brought back a lot of powerful memories that lay asleep a long while, WhiteHorse.  I hurt a lot and prayed a lot today.  I'm tuckered out now.

I read Matthew 25 with you in mind as well.  I was trying to figure why of all that the Bible says that this chapter particularly moves you so?  I also wondered if my granddad would have been moved by it.  It is God-breathed for certain and clearly useful for teaching, etc.  But I did not get a sense of how it spoke to your heart.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BT Charlie said:


> White Horse, it is interesting you have traveled so widely and experienced differences among localities.  It makes sense to me.  In looking at some of CP's links, I did see that some bodies have specifically put Christ on the throne, where we know He lives and ministers to us today.  I did not know that before today, and must say where there is Christ there is hope indeed!
> 
> The "old" boys who took me in were pretty bummed out when I departed. They sent a guy over to talk me out of it, and I was very sorry to disappoint him and the others.  I did like them.  I never felt threatened by them, but they did knock me on B-hind at the master mason level...which didn't scare me much as irk me. (Still today - ha! Will pride ever cease?) But I do confess being uneasy about the blood oaths and running intonwho some guys down here who might react poorly to those violating them.
> 
> So far as I can recall, my comments here on this thread are the first I've really ever discussed my experiences in a pseudo public way among strangers.  I don't like bashing anybody, even an organization that would have me as a member. (ha) This talk brought back a lot of powerful memories that lay asleep a long while, WhiteHorse.  I hurt a lot and prayed a lot today.  I'm tuckered out now.
> 
> I read Matthew 25 with you in mind as well.  I was trying to figure why of all that the Bible says that this chapter particularly moves you so?  I also wondered if my granddad would have been moved by it.  It is God-breathed for certain and clearly useful for teaching, etc.  But I did not get a sense of how it spoke to your heart.



As I said to White Horse, I'll say to you. Thanks for sharing your experiences. 
Maybe we can come closer to seeing each other's  quest for the truth as we lean from each other. I would venture to say many members of the masons or the Church aren't even the least bit interested in the main aspect of either, which is the truth. (I think I've said that before.)
It doesn't appear we are out to dispel either but how they co-exist in the Christian's life more than some weird concept of satanic worship or the Illuminati.
It appears our differences concern the two different truths and how they co-exist. The other difference is how can we co-exist in a club or organization with  believers of other Gods? True the local lodge might not have brothers of different God's in Georgia but how would a brother from Georgia react in a lodge in India or Iran? that could be interesting.
Even the rituals could be passed off as just a game or insignificant part of the club as many clubs have weird initiation rituals that do include whacking new candidates on the rear.
The uncomfortable part to me would be the similarities between the search for the truth, lost and needing to be reborn(even for Christians), and the parallels between Hiram Abiff and Jesus Christ. 
Somehow I must remind my fellow Christians that we let our own Christian sons join the Boy Scouts who hold the same view that members only need to believe in any God.
One more point if a mason says "everyone in my lodge is a Christian". Would you join the AARP to get what you want out of the organization without agreeing with the beliefs of the whole organization?


----------



## White Horse

"If you have done this to the least of these my brethren you have done it to me."


----------



## hunter rich

I have "skimmed through most of the posts on here, I was raised Catholic, ( I am what they call a Non-practicing Catholic) my father and best friend are/were Masons, I have friends who are members of Wicca and pagans. .  I have been to Mason breakfasts with my best friend. I have no problem with anything I have heard about the Masons, and think that some saying they are pagan and/or satanic and/or anti christian need to look in the mirror.  

What about the similarities and parallels between christianity and paganism?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hunter rich said:


> What about the similarities and parallels between christianity and paganism?


 
Those two do have similarities as do most religions. The difference is Freemasonry isn't a religion. Christianity taking over some of the Pagan holidays is a good example. Many religions have trinities, virgin births, and resurrections.


----------



## hunter rich

Artfuldodger said:


> Those two do have similarities as do most religions. The difference is Freemasonry isn't a religion. Christianity taking over some of the Pagan holidays is a good example. Many religions have trinities, virgin births, and resurrections.



I know FM is not a religion, some folks don't get that, just like some think the TP is a "political party"...

But, there are some things that make you wonder if christianity was developed as a way to control or pacify some people and used Paganism/Mithraism as a basis...kind of a religious ripoff...


----------



## BT Charlie

White Horse said:


> "If you have done this to the least of these my brethren you have done it to me."



Ah, I should have seen that.  Makes perfect sense now.  Thank you.

There will be troubles in this world.  Our struggle is not against flesh and blood, White Horse, as I know you know, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.  I pray you put on the full armor of God so when the day of evil comes you may be 
able to stand your ground.

The testimony that brought me to this place will now see me out: Jesus is Lord and Savior.  If there ever is anything I may do for you White Horse, please do not hesitate to reach out.  You are welcome at my campfire any time.


----------



## darkstan

My Dad was a Mason all his adult life. Joined while he was stationed at Fort Benning in Columbus. Became a 32nd degree Mason and was proud to be a Mason till the day he left this earth. I on the other hand have never wanted to become one. However, every single Mason I have ever met was an outstanding individual and I would be proud to call them a friend.


----------



## Bamafan4life

My grandfather was a High level free mason, I don't remember him much as I was little when he passed, but I do remember the service which was done by a free mason, and it was the longest service I've ever seen it lasted like a half a day of the man preaching beautifully and him quoting scripture word for word, he was the most intelligent preacher I've ever seen. Doesn't sound like a satanic organization to me


----------



## No. GA. Mt. Man

You talking about one of these:


----------



## howee24

All i want to know is...what is a freemason?


----------



## White Horse

A Freemason is a member of the world's oldest fraternity, the Masonic Lodge. You will see the symbol of the square and compass, usually with a "G" in the middle between the arms of the compass, in front of most Masonic lodge buildings.


----------



## howee24

That dont quite answer the question.


----------



## White Horse

So I guess you are reading more into it, like many Anti-Masons do?


----------



## howee24

I cant be anti anything if i dont know anything about it. I was simply asking a ?


----------



## TaxPhd

howee24 said:


> I cant be anti anything if i dont know anything about it. I was simply asking a ?



The question that you asked was perfectly answered.  If you want more detailed information, ask a more detailed question.


----------



## White Horse

As TaxPhD says, ask more detailed questions and we'll try to answer. I meant no disrespect in my previous response. It just seemed to me you were headed in the Anti-Mason direction, and I was trying to find out if that was indeed the case.

Thanks, "Tax Doctor."


----------



## TaxPhd

White Horse said:


> Thanks, "Tax Doctor."



My pleasure.


----------



## howee24

Idk i havent had time to read through the whole thread and some of my curiosities may have been answered already but this is a loooooong thread and im not a big fan of reading lol. Ive just heard a lot about secrecy tied in with the masons and all of this talk about ties with masons and christianity have sparked my curiosity.


----------



## Artfuldodger

howee24 said:


> Idk i havent had time to read through the whole thread and some of my curiosities may have been answered already but this is a loooooong thread and im not a big fan of reading lol. Ive just heard a lot about secrecy tied in with the masons and all of this talk about ties with masons and christianity have sparked my curiosity.



It has ties to King Solomon's Temple so it could have ties to Jews, Muslims, and Christianity. This explains it from one source:

Bearing in mind that speculative Masonry dates its origin from the building of King Solomon's temple by Jewish and Tyrian artisans, 

The trestle-board is, then, the symbol of the natural and moral law. Like every other symbol of the order, it is universal and tolerant in its application; and while, as Christian Masons, we cling with unfaltering integrity to that explanation which makes the Scriptures of both dispensations our trestle-board, we permit our Jewish and Mohammedan brethren to content themselves with the books of the Old Testament, or the Koran. Masonry does not interfere with the peculiar form or development of any one's religious faith.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/sof/sof14.htm

I'm not a Mason and the above might not be correct. It is close to what a few masons have told me about it's history. They could have been wrong too.


----------



## howee24

Wow thats a lot of hard-to-follow literature for an ole country boy like me lol.


----------



## MossyOak92

From what I have gathered from the few free masons I have talked to. They don't "Know" what the free masons are. Seems nobody does maybe the highest ranked ones but the low level ones have no clue, it seems to me. They join and use the free masons as a way to help have clout and pull in the community. And to have friends in the community and a place to have fellowship. On the anti-christian deal... i don't think any of the low level everyday people that are in it would knowingly support any kind of anti christian beliefs and most are good people. But, who knows what the end all plan is nobody's that high of a grand super master jedi for that secret.


----------



## Artfuldodger

MossyOak92 said:


> From what I have gathered from the few free masons I have talked to. They don't "Know" what the free masons are. Seems nobody does maybe the highest ranked ones but the low level ones have no clue, it seems to me. They join and use the free masons as a way to help have clout and pull in the community. And to have friends in the community and a place to have fellowship. On the anti-christian deal... i don't think any of the low level everyday people that are in it would knowingly support any kind of anti christian beliefs and most are good people. But, who knows what the end all plan is nobody's that high of a grand super master jedi for that secret.



I like that "grand super master jedi."
The sad thing is some people use Christianity for the same reasons you mentioned. Most Freemasonry members probably don't get into it "big time" and again neither do a lot of church goers.


----------



## MossyOak92

One thing with me is i wouldn't personally join any organization or group that does not lay out it's missions and goals. One big difference in Christianity and Free Masons, Free Masons sounds like Paloski advertising AFA " You have to join to see the great things in it."


----------



## River Rambler

I'm surprised at all this hate from Christian men.

I've seen archaic thinking consistent with older waning churches....that one shouldn't associate themselves outside the fold. It's generally the reason why their numbers are in decline. The word was meant to be spread. Some don't get it and everything not them is forbidden. Very Philistine-like imho.


----------



## MossyOak92

I'm not hating anyone. I choose not to participate in something that is not upfront with its ideals.


----------



## centerpin fan

River Rambler said:


> I'm surprised at all this hate from Christian men.



Disagreement is not hate.


----------



## BT Charlie

River Rambler said:


> I'm surprised at all this hate from Christian men.
> 
> I've seen archaic thinking consistent with older waning churches....that one shouldn't associate themselves outside the fold. It's generally the reason why their numbers are in decline. The word was meant to be spread. Some don't get it and everything not them is forbidden. Very Philistine-like imho.



My thinking was Jesus Christ is Lord. That testimony was good enough to get me invited into the temple, where I completed 32 degrees. It also was testimony good enough to see me out of the temple a short while later.

No hate. Not a philistine. And not calling anybody archaic 
or suggesting they are in decline.  True testimony of what I witnessed.


----------



## White Horse

Freemasonry is the world's oldest fraternity, dedicated to brotherly love, relief, and truth. There is nothing Satanic in it, and nothing that any Christian should find offensive. If Freemasonry had any of that the Southern Baptist minister who helped me become a Mason would not have been involved. Neither would have George Washington, Davy Crockett, Harry Truman, Red Skelton, Roy Clark, or White Horse, just to name a few.

But, I say yet again, don't take my word for it. Investigate for yourself. Make up your own mind.

Now this bunch of Anti-Masons who love to post on here will say that I have been fooled, that I'm not of a high enough level to have been exposed to the occult aspects of Masonry, that I'm not a Christian, or one of the many other calumnies that they love to repeat without knowing what they are talking about. 

Once again I say: investigate for yourself. Make up your own mind. Don't repeat what any supposed "authority" says without thoroughly checking out the facts.


----------



## centerpin fan

White Horse said:


> Freemasonry is the world's oldest fraternity ...



Not to be confused with the world's oldest profession.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I would not say we are all anti mason to the point of going on some anti mason rally. We are anti in that we would not personally join Freemasonry. 
I would not join the AARP either but I'm not anti-AARP.


----------



## Head East

centerpin fan said:


> Not to be confused with the world's oldest profession.



I am totally dumbfounded by the incivility of this comment.  Why are you so disrespectful?  You just stated in a previous post that disagreement is not hate... yet you imply that readers might confuse this organization with some other "profession".  This is just a hateful statement.  Are you a hateful person?  Did you get a good laugh out of this?  Did you think this was funny?  It was not in the least bit humorous to a very large group of this website.    

I am appalled that you made this statement.  If you want to debate freemasonry, fine.  Debate it.  This statement, however crosses the line from debate to demagoguery.

I ask that you apologize to all those who you may have been offended by your thoughtless comment.


----------



## centerpin fan

Head East said:


> I am totally dumbfounded by the incivility of this comment.  Why are you so disrespectful?  You just stated in a previous post that disagreement is not hate... yet you imply that readers might confuse this organization with some other "profession".  This is just a hateful statement.  Are you a hateful person?  Did you get a good laugh out of this?  Did you think this was funny?  It was not in the least bit humorous to a very large group of this website.
> 
> I am appalled that you made this statement.  If you want to debate freemasonry, fine.  Debate it.  This statement, however crosses the line from debate to demagoguery.
> 
> I ask that you apologize to all those who you may have been offended by your thoughtless comment.







It was a JOKE.  Geez, you guys are touchy!


----------



## Head East

I don't see an apology and this is not a joking matter.  I will assume you will not apologize.  I really did think you were better than this, though.  Enough said on my part.  Carry on.


----------



## centerpin fan

Head East said:


> I don't see an apology and this is not a joking matter.  I will assume you will not apologize.  I really did think you were better than this, though.  Enough said on my part.  Carry on.











I was just trying to add a bit of levity to this tired, beaten-to-death thread.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> I was just trying to add a bit of levity to this tired, beaten-to-death thread.


Your comment really struck a nerve.


----------



## firebiker

*Wow -lol*

wow it amazes me how people that know nothing about something know it all ! LOL
by now crazycatfish you should be a Master Mason and if so welcome to the fraternity brother.
you will find that Masonry will make you a better man, better son , better husband and a better father.
you will find some great mentors in a Masonic lodge and they are Christians as well.


----------



## CrazyCatfish

well since nobody has commented on this thread in quite awhile i figured i would throw a little gas on the fire!!! this past saturday in Grand lodge in Macon i received my Knights Templar Yorkrite degree. Man it was a long, long tiring day but it was all well worth it... I really enjoyed all the lectures and the dramas the guys put on for us... i ma excited to be apart of the chapter and counsel and the commandry


----------



## centerpin fan

CrazyCatfish said:


> well since nobody has commented on this thread in quite awhile i figured i would throw a little gas on the fire!!! this past saturday in Grand lodge in Macon i received my Knights Templar Yorkrite degree. Man it was a long, long tiring day but it was all well worth it... I really enjoyed all the lectures and the dramas the guys put on for us... i ma excited to be apart of the chapter and counsel and the commandry



At this point, you're just trolling.


----------



## CrazyCatfish

no.. actually i was speaking to the good people in here that are mason's and understand truly what i am talking about and experiencing. honestly i can say to you my good man that what has always been said to you can't be anymore true than what i know now... i have seen it and done it all.. i have reached the pinnacle of light.. and if your not in and apart of it you don't get it.. the here say does it no justice... IT every single bit of IT is based on the bible... i can only hope one day you realize that for yourself.


----------



## centerpin fan

CrazyCatfish said:


> well since nobody has commented on this thread in quite awhile i figured i would throw a little gas on the fire!!! this past saturday in Grand lodge in Macon i received my Knights Templar Yorkrite degree. Man it was a long, long tiring day but it was all well worth it... I really enjoyed all the lectures and the dramas the guys put on for us... i ma excited to be apart of the chapter and counsel and the commandry



Have you ever been this excited about your church?


----------



## CrazyCatfish

every sunday!


----------



## CrazyCatfish

if it makes you feel any better... saturday morning i left at 3:30am arrived in macon at 0715. sat in class and lecture until 9:45pm.. drove back to dallas got home about 12:15. passed out in the shower. crawled into bed and was at church for morning and evening services... if i have any down fall i do admit i did not make sunday school.


----------



## CrazyCatfish

and i am not in the at least bit of complaint.. i loved every minute of it all


----------



## centerpin fan

CrazyCatfish said:


> every sunday!



Great.

Do you plan on sticking with the Lodge, or is Ex-Masons for Jesus in your future?


----------



## CrazyCatfish

there is jesus in it all.. it's just you folks that are in darkness that are to silly to realize that.


----------



## centerpin fan

CrazyCatfish said:


> there is jesus in it all.. it's just you folks that are in darkness that are to silly to realize that.


----------



## SilveradoZ71

CrazyCatfish said:


> well since nobody has commented on this thread in quite awhile i figured i would throw a little gas on the fire!!! this past saturday in Grand lodge in Macon i received my Knights Templar Yorkrite degree. Man it was a long, long tiring day but it was all well worth it... I really enjoyed all the lectures and the dramas the guys put on for us... i ma excited to be apart of the chapter and counsel and the commandry



Congratulations my Brother.  Just ignore the haters, naysayers and just plain foolish.  They know not what they speak.


----------



## centerpin fan

SilveradoZ71 said:


> Congratulations my Brother.  Just ignore the haters, naysayers and just plain foolish.  They know not what they speak.



How about the Ex-Masons for Jesus?

http://emfj.org/


----------



## centerpin fan

centerpin fan said:


> At this point, you're just trolling.



Mission Accomplished


----------



## SilveradoZ71

Neither are you to suffer your zeal for the institution to lead you into arguments with those who, through IGNORANCE, may ridicule it.


----------



## centerpin fan

centerpin fan said:


> How about the Ex-Masons for Jesus?
> 
> http://emfj.org/




You guys treat this like it's radioactive.


----------



## SilveradoZ71

centerpin fan said:


> You guys treat this like it's radioactive.



Anyone can cut and paste stuff off the internet    Doesnt make it the gospel and truth though.

This will be my last reply to you.  Pound sand 

http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/11/ex-pastor-ex-wife-ex-christian.html\

http://mexc.blogspot.com/2006/03/my-final-testimony.html

http://new.exchristian.net/

http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=12


----------



## centerpin fan

SilveradoZ71 said:


> Anyone can cut and paste stuff off the internet    Doesnt make it the gospel and truth though.
> 
> http://debunkingchristianity.blogspot.com/2006/11/ex-pastor-ex-wife-ex-christian.html\
> 
> http://mexc.blogspot.com/2006/03/my-final-testimony.html
> 
> http://new.exchristian.net/
> 
> http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=12




Christians respond to links like these everyday in the AAA forum but, as I said, posting this:

http://emfj.org/

... is like pulling a cross on Dracula.




SilveradoZ71 said:


> This will be my last reply to you.  Pound sand


----------



## CrazyCatfish

i just laugh at all of this... again.. what you believe and what you think is all off of someone else. not of your own knowledge or findings. well believe what you want from some 21 year old kid and the blog he wrote in his mommy's basement but i can say first hand your wrong. i will leave it at that, because no matter what i say this argument is not going to be resolved. i know i am wright and i know your wrong and that gives me peace in my heart. good day gentlemen. and good luck! sounds like your both going to need it. i pray for you both.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

CrazyCatfish said:


> no.. actually i was speaking to the good people in here that are mason's and understand truly what i am talking about and experiencing. honestly i can say to you my good man that what has always been said to you can't be anymore true than what i know now... i have seen it and done it all.. i have reached the pinnacle of light.. and if your not in and apart of it you don't get it.. the here say does it no justice... IT every single bit of IT is based on the bible... i can only hope one day you realize that for yourself.



Didn't Jim Jones base his cult on the Bible too?


----------



## CrazyCatfish

i never met Jim Jones. I am not sure what he based his stuff on.. is he on the GON forums. i would like to hear what he has to say.


----------



## centerpin fan

CrazyCatfish said:


> i never met Jim Jones.



Is this more trolling?  I know you're young, but you've never heard of Jim Jones?


----------



## stringmusic

CrazyCatfish said:


> i know i am wright and i know your wrong


Maybe not?


----------



## stringmusic

centerpin fan said:


> Not to be confused with the world's oldest profession.





Head East said:


> I am totally dumbfounded by the incivility of this comment.  Why are you so disrespectful?  You just stated in a previous post that disagreement is not hate... yet you imply that readers might confuse this organization with some other "profession".  This is just a hateful statement.  Are you a hateful person?  Did you get a good laugh out of this?  Did you think this was funny?  It was not in the least bit humorous to a very large group of this website.
> 
> I am appalled that you made this statement.  If you want to debate freemasonry, fine.  Debate it.  This statement, however crosses the line from debate to demagoguery.
> 
> I ask that you apologize to all those who you may have been offended by your thoughtless comment.



You mason fellers sure do get upset about things that "others juss don't understand". Y'all ever thought about just tellin' folks what y'all do?


----------



## centerpin fan

CrazyCatfish said:


> i never met Jim Jones. I am not sure what he based his stuff on.. is he on the GON forums. i would like to hear what he has to say.



I read this again, and there's no way you're serious.


----------



## centerpin fan

CrazyCatfish said:


> i just laugh at all of this... again.. what you believe and what you think is all off of someone else. not of your own knowledge or findings. well believe what you want from some 21 year old kid and the blog he wrote in his mommy's basement but i can say first hand your wrong. i will leave it at that ...



... until April Fool's 2015.


----------



## M80

centerpin fan said:


> Disagreement is not hate.



Centerpin I just want you to know you've made my night. Finally something we agree on. The Masons


----------



## centerpin fan

mwilliams80 said:


> Centerpin I just want you to know you've made my night. Finally something we agree on. The Masons



We probably agree on a lot of stuff.


----------



## M80

centerpin fan said:


> We probably agree on a lot of stuff.



I know, just messing with ya. 

My deal with this stuff is Jesus said so let your light shine. Anything based on The Lord, which is the word, needs no secrets. We are to spread the word. If it was a club I would have no problem with it, but when they say it's based on the bible, that's where I have my problems.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> I know, just messing with ya.
> 
> My deal with this stuff is Jesus said so let your light shine. Anything based on The Lord, which is the word, needs no secrets. We are to spread the word. If it was a club I would have no problem with it, but when they say it's based on the bible, that's where I have my problems.



Having ties to the Bible is different from being Biblical. Christianity shares the same Biblical beginnings as Judaism & Islam.
Just to show an example and in no way comparing Freemasonry to any other organization, The number one source of knowledge for the Ku Klux Klan is the Holy Bible.

One more example I thought of:
The Rastafari movement is an African-based spiritual ideology that arose in the 1930s in Jamaica. 
Rastafari are monotheists, worshiping a singular God whom they call Jah. Jah is the term in the King James Bible, Psalms 68:4. Rastas view Jah in the form of the Holy Trinity – Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.


----------



## Artfuldodger

There is no doubt in my mind that there are many devout Christians in the Freemasonry fraternity. These are members that believe in Jesus. They believe that Jesus is the only way to Heaven.
I don't think Jesus is a part of Freemasonry. God is a part of Freemasonry as he is in Islam & Judaism. Maybe because Freemasonry predates Jesus. The Christian in the organization just has to accept that fact. 

I have a question for a Mason. Can a Christian member talk about the exclusivity of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior in the Lodge? Do you all as in members, co-exist with the belief that there are different ways to get to Heaven?
Does the Great Architect of the Universe have a Son?


----------



## SilveradoZ71

Artfuldodger said:


> I have a question for a Mason. Can a Christian member talk about the exclusivity of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior in the Lodge? Do you all as in members, co-exist with the belief that there are different ways to get to Heaven?
> Does the Great Architect of the Universe have a Son?



I have never heard the term "Great Architect of the Universe" in my Lodge that I remember.  We say God.

Our Chaplain, who is also a baptist preacher, leads us in prayer every meeting and he prays to God the father and for Salvation for all through his Son, Jesus Christ.   His prayers can become lengthy at times. Almost like a short sermon.

Not sure if I answered your question or not and I know not the heart of ALL my brethren.   I just know how we do it at our Lodge and Im about 100% sure we all believe in God and only ONE way to Heaven.


----------



## Artfuldodger

SilveradoZ71 said:


> I have never heard the term "Great Architect of the Universe" in my Lodge that I remember.  We say God.
> 
> Our Chaplain, who is also a baptist preacher, leads us in prayer every meeting and he prays to God the father and for Salvation for all through his Son, Jesus Christ.   His prayers can become lengthy at times. Almost like a short sermon.
> 
> Not sure if I answered your question or not and I know not the heart of ALL my brethren.   I just know how we do it at our Lodge and Im about 100% sure we all believe in God and only ONE way to Heaven.



Thanks for you answer. It's probably different according to each lodge. I could see a small town lodge having 100% Christian members. It might be different in a big town lodge with Jewish, Hindu, and Christian  members.
I used to work with a Mason and he said his lodge referred to God as the  Great Architect of the Universe. I guess it's just another name for God such as Jehovah or Allah.


----------



## SilveradoZ71

Artfuldodger said:


> I could see a small town lodge having 100% Christian members. .



We are most definitely a small town Lodge.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Even amongst us Christians we all see God a little differently. Some divide him into three, some keep him as one or Oneness.  We don't even agree on exactly who his Son is yet we all do understand his Son is the only way.
Some of us can worship with these differences and some of us can't. I would assume in bigger lodges some Christians can meet with non-Christians or they just wouldn't join the lodge. That's kinda where I was leading in my questions and as to if the Great Architect of the Universe has a Son.
I did find this answer helpful:

Now imagine me standing in lodge with my head bowed in prayer between Brother Mohammed Bokhary and Brother Arjun Melwani. To neither of them is the Great Architect of the Universe perceived as the Holy Trinity. To Brother Bokhary He has been revealed as Allah; to Brother Melwani He is probably perceived as Vishnu. Since I believe that there is only one God, I am confronted with three possibilities: They are praying to the devil whilst I am praying to God; They are praying to nothing, as their Gods do not exist; They are praying to the same God as I, yet their understanding of His nature is partly incomplete (as indeed is mine — 1 Cor 13:12) 
It is without hesitation that I accept the third possibility..

—Christopher Haffner, Workman Unashamed: The Testimony of a Christian Freemason, Lewis Masonic, 1989, p.39


----------



## Artfuldodger

I just thought of something, Allah or Vishnu didn't have a Son. That's a little more than God having a different nature.


----------



## Slingblade

We do not discuss religion or politics while the lodge is open; this thread is a good example of why.  The only secrets in freemasonry are the forms and ceremonies of initiation and the ways we recognize each other.  The whole being brought from darkness to light is in regards to the the initiates entrance into the fraternity.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Slingblade said:


> We do not discuss religion or politics while the lodge is open; this thread is a good example of why.  The only secrets in freemasonry are the forms and ceremonies of initiation and the ways we recognize each other.  The whole being brought from darkness to light is in regards to the the initiates entrance into the fraternity.



Would a lodge having 100% Christian members whose chaplain lead a prayer involving Jesus being the only way, be in violation of fraternity rules?


----------



## Slingblade

No, not at all.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Slingblade said:


> No, not at all.



That's a little more comforting than what my Mason co-worker told me. He was in a big city lodge and perhaps that is the difference. He said one only had to believe in a "god" vs the God who had a Son to join his lodge. It is possible that his lodge has members that are Jewish or Hindu and thus the requirement to not include Jesus. 
So the difference or thing to look for would be a lodge with just Christians. Though my co-worker said they don't ask new pledges if they are Christian, just if they believe in a supreme being. That would make it harder to find a lodge of just Christians in a big city.
A small town might be a different situation. Would a non Christian believer of God be welcomed in your local lodge?


----------



## Artfuldodger

One thing Christians have a problem agreeing on is the path to Heaven. We can't agree if it's God's grace, God's grace plus our faith, or grace, faith, plus works.
If Freemasonry were a religion, which category would it fit into?
I would like to thank all the Travelers for there input.                                                It's kinda hard to respond on a forum where you are the underdog. I can identify because I personally don't believe in the Trinity. In relation to Christian Freemasons, many would exclude me and accept you.


----------



## Slingblade

Yes, your friend was correct in that one only has to believe in a supreme being to join the fraternity.  The reason atheists are not allowed to join is because of the obligation we take upon ourselves.


----------



## Slingblade

Since it is not a religion and does not profess to be one or a substitute of one, I cannot answer that.  The charge given to a Master Mason is clear that their duties are: To God, your country, your neighbor, your family and yourself.  Those duties are for the individual to decide and is not the place of the lodge to dictate.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Slingblade said:


> Since it is not a religion and does not profess to be one or a substitute of one, I cannot answer that.  The charge given to a Master Mason is clear that their duties are: To God, your country, your neighbor, your family and yourself.  Those duties are for the individual to decide and is not the place of the lodge to dictate.



I'm not an anti-mason, just an inquisitive person. I like to see how people interact with non-Christians in everyday life situations. One example is club Chaplains. Actually Chaplains in general as in VA Hospitals or the military.
My Dad was the Chaplain in his local American Legion chapter. I'm pretty sure all of his chapter members were professed Christians. They proclaim "for God & country."
Now I've never heard my dad preach or do anything at legion meetings other than prayer. I don't know how they feel about members being Atheist or Jewish. They don't claim there club is based on the Bible as do the masons.
The difference I see as related to me personally has to do with that aspect of an organization. Freemasonry kinda goes back and forth as to if it is or it isn't religious or biblical. This is what I'm hearing: It's based on religion but it's not. We are all Christian and pray about Jesus being the way. We don't talk about Jesus. We only require a belief in any god. We believe our good works will be a decision of the afterlife. 
Hopefully  one can at least see the contradictions me and others see. If Freemasonry isn't a religion, why the requirement to believe in any God? Why discuss "works" as needed for the path to Heaven? Why even discuss Gods or the afterlife and paths to get there? Why discuss enlightenment and "the light" or "the truth" as if it is some mystical way of obtaining it? Why discuss being "reborn" if it's just a fun club with values of helping God, country, family, and fellow men?  Free masonry appears to have overlapping beliefs in religions. Why have a Great Architect of the Universe if it's just a fun club with great values?
Again it is a great club with outstanding values. Probably because it is based on religion. Religions do have great values and morals. I do appreciate all that your fraternity has done and would agree that y'all are mostly God fearing outstanding citizens here in the United States. I'm just a little upset with your fraternity's idea of who God is. I have this same problem with the Boy Scouts. 
It's the somewhat mixing of religious thingies with club thingies.
I'm still confused about allowing members of any God but not allowing Atheist. I can't justify that concept into my brain. I guess it's because I don't believe there is more than one way to Heaven. I really don't see the difference in allowing Atheist or Hindus.
Freemasonry teaches  indifferentism in that there are many paths to Heaven, not just Jesus or even the God of Abraham.


----------



## gemcgrew

CrazyCatfish said:


> no.. actually i was speaking to the good people in here that are mason's and understand truly what i am talking about and experiencing. honestly i can say to you my good man that what has always been said to you can't be anymore true than what i know now... i have seen it and done it all.. i have reached the pinnacle of light.. and if your not in and apart of it you don't get it.. the here say does it no justice... IT every single bit of IT is based on the bible... i can only hope one day you realize that for yourself.


And who do you attribute this to?


----------



## Artfuldodger

The Knights Templar is an international philanthropic chivalric order affiliated with Freemasonry. Unlike the initial degrees conferred in a Masonic Lodge, which only require a belief in a Supreme Being regardless of religious affiliation, the Knights Templar is one of several additional Masonic Orders in which membership is open only to Freemasons who profess a belief in the Christian religion. One of the oaths entrants to the Order are required to declare is to protect and defend the Christian Faith.

That's very enlightening!


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> The Knights Templar is an international philanthropic chivalric order affiliated with Freemasonry. Unlike the initial degrees conferred in a Masonic Lodge, which only require a belief in a Supreme Being regardless of religious affiliation, the Knights Templar is one of several additional Masonic Orders in which membership is open only to Freemasons who profess a belief in the Christian religion. One of the oaths entrants to the Order are required to declare is to protect and defend the Christian Faith.




"Jacques de Molay, you are avenged!"


----------



## CrazyCatfish

artful, you have some really good points and have really made me think.. i have heard the term supreme ruler of the universe. i guess i always down play it because i know what is in my heart. to me there is really not any difference in praying at lodge with a guy who is chatholic, or muslim, or hindu or anything. the only thing the lodge requires is that you believe in a god or a supreme being. i ma not exactly sure what the fore fathers had in there mind when they designed all of this hundreds of years ago. to me its the same as a work place or school made up of jews, catholics or hindu's.  when i bow my head and i say my prayers i know in my heart who and what i am praying too. it is all about what is in YOUR own heart. and that is what the lodge is really all about.. doing good from what is in your own heart. in theory there really aren't all these crazy secrets or ideas about overtaking the world all that jazz. it is just about helping your fellow man and you being a better person overall. the lodge makes a good man a great man. but one thing folks dont point out much is as you get further into masonry ( the yorkrite way ) you will learn that there are parts you can only join and be apart of if you are a christian and believe in god and jesus christ. i know i am a lil ol country boy and i am not the best at spelling or expressing myself but i hope this helps.... we are a small lodge too and we only have christians in ours but we would never turn any others away..


----------



## Artfuldodger

CrazyCatfish said:


> artful, you have some really good points and have really made me think.. i have heard the term supreme ruler of the universe. i guess i always down play it because i know what is in my heart. to me there is really not any difference in praying at lodge with a guy who is chatholic, or muslim, or hindu or anything. the only thing the lodge requires is that you believe in a god or a supreme being. i ma not exactly sure what the fore fathers had in there mind when they designed all of this hundreds of years ago. to me its the same as a work place or school made up of jews, catholics or hindu's.  when i bow my head and i say my prayers i know in my heart who and what i am praying too. it is all about what is in YOUR own heart. and that is what the lodge is really all about.. doing good from what is in your own heart. in theory there really aren't all these crazy secrets or ideas about overtaking the world all that jazz. it is just about helping your fellow man and you being a better person overall. the lodge makes a good man a great man. but one thing folks dont point out much is as you get further into masonry ( the yorkrite way ) you will learn that there are parts you can only join and be apart of if you are a christian and believe in god and jesus christ. i know i am a lil ol country boy and i am not the best at spelling or expressing myself but i hope this helps.... we are a small lodge too and we only have christians in ours but we would never turn any others away..



It is a lot to think about. Nothing wrong with a feller trying to better himself. Good luck on your travels. I too will be looking to the East for the light. 
The Enlightenment, Deism, Rosicrucianism, Hermeticism, & Cabala all have ideals of the Great Architect being Universal. They are just other avenues of finding the "light." They are all based on the Universal approach of God and Salvation.
The Rosicrucian spiritual path incorporates: philosophy, kabbalah, and divine magic. It's the Order of the Rose and Cross. The degrees of the Chapter of Rose Croix are very complex. They attempt to invest the candidate with a deeper understanding of Religion, Philosophy, Ethics, and History. This is in the Scottish Rite. 18th degree - Knight Rose Croix: This degree teaches that life and it's strengths come from God.

I can't argue about anyone trying to better themselves or a degree that teaches strengths come from God. 

I only have trouble praying & worshiping intimately with individuals seeking the "light" from different avenues other than Jesus. I could go to a Muslim Mosque or a Cabala  encounter occasionally, but I just don't know if I'm comfortable to "lodging" or "meeting" with such individuals monthly. As you said your little lodge is all Christian but the Fraternity isn't.
It's all based on how an individual can justify or search their soul on these matters. I can work freely with a Hindu, break bread with Jew, play ball with an Atheist, camp with a Muslim, fish with a Wiccan, etc. I'm a pretty liberal person. I do accept that other people seek Heaven by other avenues. 
Works or being a good person are very important. Your organization places more emphasis on an individuals "works" as related to a path to Heaven than I personally adhere to. 
Again we all are just trying to be better people. Maybe it is possible that there are many paths to salvation, enlightenment, Heaven, goodness, rebirth, helping others, science, nature, mysticism, immortality, God, etc.
For all of mankind I hope this is true.

Unfortunately, I don't believe there are many paths to immortality. I don't even think an individuals good works will help a good old country feller out too much.
May the Force be with you.


----------



## Obediah01

I would not do it, join the Masons or any other X-tra Biblical or unbibical club; Christ is ALL I need and the only witness want to be known for.


----------



## Israel

Obediah01 said:


> I would not do it, join the Masons or any other X-tra Biblical or unbibical club; Christ is ALL I need and the only witness want to be known for.



Indeed. The forming of secret clubs...the appeal of such...comes from somewhere, and leads to somewhere...not wholesome.


----------



## White Horse

Israel said:


> Indeed. The forming of secret clubs...the appeal of such...comes from somewhere, and leads to somewhere...not wholesome.



Gentlemen, the Masonic Lodge is not a secret society. Lodges have signs right in front telling what they are, and advertising meeting nights. No Masons try to cover up their membership in the lodge. Masons are proud to belong, and wear their rings, display their car tags, bumper stickers, etc. with pride. 

There is nothing in Freemasonry that any Christian would find offensive. If there were, then George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Roy Clark, Red Skelton, or White Horse would not have been Masons.

Don't preach from ignorance.


----------



## gemcgrew

White Horse said:


> Gentlemen, the Masonic Lodge is not a secret society. Lodges have signs right in front telling what they are, and advertising meeting nights. No Masons try to cover up their membership in the lodge. Masons are proud to belong, and wear their rings, display their car tags, bumper stickers, etc. with pride.
> 
> There is nothing in Freemasonry that any Christian would find offensive. If there were, then George Washington, Theodore Roosevelt, Harry Truman, Roy Clark, Red Skelton, or White Horse would not have been Masons.
> 
> Don't preach from ignorance.


As a former proud person, and I say former with much apprehension and a need to have it sliced a bit deeper, I am offended by your statements in blue...as a Christian.


----------



## White Horse

I would say that, judging from your statements and leading questions in this thread, you are looking for something to be offended about.

Please give us specifics of what you found offensive in your own experience of Freemasonry, including what Masonic jurisdiction you were in.


----------



## centerpin fan

This thread just won't die.


----------



## White Horse

"Pride" defined in the American Heritage College Dictionary:

1. A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self respect.

2. Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, a possession, or association.

3. Arrogant or disdainful conduct or treatment, haughtiness.

...and there are several other meanings for the word "pride."

You haven't answered, but I expect that you are making reference to the use of the word "pride" in Proverbs. I would maintain that in Proverbs 16 Solomon meant pride in the sense of the third definition above. My statements about Masons being proud of their membership in Masonry meant that word in the sense of definitions one and two above. There may be some Masons who are arrogant or haughty about their membership in the Lodge, but I don't know any, and I know lots of Masons.


----------



## firebiker

centerpin fan said:


> ... until April Fool's 2015.



whats gonna happen then ? you're going to turn into a pumpkin and shut the heck UP !


----------



## centerpin fan

firebiker said:


> whats gonna happen then ? you're going to turn into a pumpkin and shut the heck UP !


----------



## ThomasCobb123

Artfuldodger said:


> The only problem with the secrecy is you only get to know certain secrets according to your degree in the hierachy. In other words you have no way of knowing the mission of the organization until you are at a *higher degree*.


There is no higher masonic degree above the sublime degree of Master Mason, the 3rd degree in a 'blue' or symbolic lodge.
There are other degrees and rites....all the way to 32, (33 being honorary) but none are "higher" than that of Master Mason.
Members of the craft know that...you do not.
Masonry does not offer or promise *any plan of salvation*, initiates are taught that when they are admitted.
A part of a welcoming lecture (not any "secret") states that...."Freemasonry is a beautiful system of morality, veiled in allegory, and illustrated by signs and symbols".
No Mason should openly solicit another person for membership. The request for membership must come from the candidate himself.
There is a slogan "2B1 ask 1"
None of this is "secret" and is usually only offensive to religious extremists or those with an ax to grind.
So mote it be.


----------



## gemcgrew

ThomasCobb123 said:


> There is no higher masonic degree above the sublime degree of Master Mason, the 3rd degree in a 'blue' or symbolic lodge.
> There are other degrees and rites....all the way to 32, (33 being honorary) but none are "higher" than that of Master Mason.
> Members of the craft know that...you do not.
> Masonry does not offer or promise *any plan of salvation*, initiates are taught that when they are admitted.
> A part of a welcoming lecture (not any "secret") states that...."Freemasonry is a beautiful system of morality, veiled in allegory, and illustrated by signs and symbols".
> No Mason should openly solicit another person for membership. The request for membership must come from the candidate himself.
> There is a slogan "2B1 ask 1"
> None of this is "secret" and is usually only offensive to religious extremists or those with an ax to grind.
> So mote it be.


And Christians.


----------



## Artfuldodger

ThomasCobb123 said:


> There is no higher masonic degree above the sublime degree of Master Mason, the 3rd degree in a 'blue' or symbolic lodge.
> There are other degrees and rites....all the way to 32, (33 being honorary) but none are "higher" than that of Master Mason.
> Members of the craft know that...you do not.
> Masonry does not offer or promise *any plan of salvation*, initiates are taught that when they are admitted.
> A part of a welcoming lecture (not any "secret") states that...."Freemasonry is a beautiful system of morality, veiled in allegory, and illustrated by signs and symbols".
> No Mason should openly solicit another person for membership. The request for membership must come from the candidate himself.
> There is a slogan "2B1 ask 1"
> None of this is "secret" and is usually only offensive to religious extremists or those with an ax to grind.
> So mote it be.



Thanks for clearing up the degrees and secrecy. I don't consider myself a religious extremist nor do I have an ax to grind. I'm only looking for the correct path to the truth & light. Does Freemasonry offer me this path?


----------



## White Horse

gemcgrew said:


> And Christians.



That would be ***some*** Christians. Since the vast majority of Masons are Christians, Masonry can't possibly be offensive to all Christians.

Are you an "extremist" or do you have an ax to grind, or both?


----------



## ThomasCobb123

Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks for clearing up the degrees and secrecy. I don't consider myself a religious extremist nor do I have an ax to grind. I'm only looking for the correct path to the truth & light. Does Freemasonry offer me this path?


From my posting #573...I repeat:
*Masonry does not offer or promise any plan of salvation, initiates are taught that when they are admitted.*
Any belief system that promises to take you to heaven in the hereafter will not be found in the Masonic Lodge.  Such a belief will be between the individual and his own personal God.  My personal faith tells me that I cannot achieve eternal life except through believing in Jesus Christ as the Son of the Living God. And that he died a substitutionary death for me so I would not receive the eternal spiritual death which I deserve. He paid my sin debt for me.
I have no idea what yours tells you.
If a route to a spiritual hereafter is what you call 'truth' you will not find it in a Masonic Lodge.
If you are searching for 'light', the only light you will find in a lodge of Masons is "Masonic Light" and Masonic Light only.  
For what it's worth, a person can boast and display every Masonic working tool, every Masonic sign, symbol, or whatever, until the day he dies, but it will NOT get that person one inch closer to eternal life.
This speculative Masonic Light is legendary, even though the characters are taken from the old testament in the King James Bible.  Masonic Light is primarily concerned with certain legendary events and activities that occurred in and around the building of King Solomon's temple.
The lessons inculcated therein are by no means of a light or trifling nature. They're some guidelines for living an upright life.  
There are Masons who're drunks, adulterers, cheaters in business, just as there are the same types in churches, other fraternal orders, or the U.S. congress.  Most Masons, however, attend their lodge meetings as an adjunct to their core religious beliefs.
Curiosity seekers will quickly become bored with the whole thing when they discover that passwords, signs, and symbols will not help them in business or other profane objectives...."it jes' ain't there".
Masons meet "on the level".
To a Freemason, on the level means just that — all Freemasons are Brothers
who meet on the same level, regardless of their social or economic status
outside the lodge. 
Princes, presidents, and captains of business are no better or more important than bus drivers, plumbers, and paper boys when they sit in the lodge together.
Masonry does not detract from a man’s accomplishments,
nor does it exalt him above his Brothers because of his position outside the
lodge.
So mote it be.


----------



## Artfuldodger

As a Christian, I must reject all other Gods other than the Father of Jesus as false. In Freemasonry this isn't a requirement and it shouldn't be as Freemasonry isn't a religion. Why does Freemasonry require a belief in a God? If not a religion then what truth or light, even if only speculative, could one find in Freemasonry?
Why is the fraternity's whole concept based on a belief in the Great Architect  and why do the rituals follow a death and new birth if it's only for show? 
Why didn't the club at least be original enough to come up with their own rituals? Maybe like praying to the secret clan of the Monkey Monkey or the Grand Master really being the guy who mixes the mud? Maybe initiates could mix mortar and lay some brick. I am being facetious and mean no respect.
Why not swear that one will receive 40 lashes with a wet noodle?
If just a club based on Universalism, then don't have rituals like the Mormon church has on dying and being reborn. I do believe the Mormon's Temple rituals are based on Freemasonry whose rituals are based on Universal Christianity. Make up some rituals based on some other religion's rituals or be creative enough to make up your own.
These rituals are just for fun and don't really mean being reborn into anything other than freemasonry.
Masonry doesn't promise any form of salvation but it is a part of the light or truth that rewards are based on works.
I can't hold that against the masons as even some Christians believe that. I just don't understand the concept of works, truth, & light. 
I do like that Freemasonry tries to unite brothers. I do like the help they offer. I just wish they didn't parallel Universal Universalism philosophy into their concept & rituals. That in itself, their rebirth ritual, and works for favors from God, would keep me from participating. 
I'm just one individual weird thinking person who may be over thinking the whole concept of the parallels between Christianity & Freemasonry.


----------



## ThomasCobb123

Artfuldodger said:


> As a Christian, I must reject all other Gods other than the Father of Jesus as false. In Freemasonry this isn't a requirement and it shouldn't be as Freemasonry isn't a religion. Why does Freemasonry require a belief in a God? If not a religion then what truth or light, even if only speculative, could one find in Freemasonry?
> Why is the fraternity's whole concept based on a belief in the Great Architect  and why do the rituals follow a death and new birth if it's only for show?
> Why didn't the club at least be original enough to come up with their own rituals? Maybe like praying to the secret clan of the Monkey Monkey or the Grand Master really being the guy who mixes the mud? Maybe initiates could mix mortar and lay some brick. I am being facetious and mean no respect.
> Why not swear that one will receive 40 lashes with a wet noodle?
> If just a club based on Universalism, then don't have rituals like the Mormon church has on dying and being reborn. I do believe the Mormon's Temple rituals are based on Freemasonry whose rituals are based on Universal Christianity. Make up some rituals based on some other religion's rituals or be creative enough to make up your own.
> These rituals are just for fun and don't really mean being reborn into anything other than freemasonry.
> Masonry doesn't promise any form of salvation but it is a part of the light or truth that rewards are based on works.
> I can't hold that against the masons as even some Christians believe that. I just don't understand the concept of works, truth, & light.
> I do like that Freemasonry tries to unite brothers. I do like the help they offer. I just wish they didn't parallel Universal Universalism philosophy into their concept & rituals. That in itself, their rebirth ritual, _and works for favors from God, would keep me from participating. _I'm just one individual weird thinking person who may be over thinking the whole concept of the parallels between Christianity & Freemasonry.


If you are aware of the Judgment Seat of Christ, you know that is where Christians receive their rewards for their works. Their salvation is NOT based on their works....and if they haven't accepted Christ, they won't be there in the first place to receive rewards for the works they have done in this life.
Masonic teachings, in no way, conflict with an individual's personal beliefs concerning 'other gods'. (for that matter there are many 'other gods'. To wit: the lust for money, sex, power, athletics, poetry, or even bass fishing. They all can be 'other gods')
Your screen name is certainly appropriate....you've been told all you should know and you're still "artfully dodging" the facts you've received here. Note, I said "dodging"...quite different from "accepting", which in no way is being expected from you at all.
I'm quite sure you just wouldn't fit in, as you indicate. 
Not into the Loyal Order of the Moose, the Elks, the Knights of Columbus, or any other fraternal order requiring a profession of belief in a supreme being.
I've probably had this same conversation hundreds of times over the past 50 years....the conclusion is always the same.
A man will get out of the Masons exactly what he puts into it and nothing more.
Do not forget:  Masonry is not recruiting or trying any "salesmanship" on you.  *You* would have to recruit Masonry and do the "salesmanship" yourself as to being worthy of acceptance. All candidates must do likewise should they choose to travel the Masonic Rites.
Stay happy.


----------



## Artfuldodger

ThomasCobb123 said:


> If you are aware of the Judgment Seat of Christ, you know that is where Christians receive their rewards for their works. Their salvation is NOT based on their works....and if they haven't accepted Christ, they won't be there in the first place to receive rewards for the works they have done in this life.
> Masonic teachings, in no way, conflict with an individual's personal beliefs concerning 'other gods'. (for that matter there are many 'other gods'. To wit: the lust for money, sex, power, athletics, poetry, or even bass fishing. They all can be 'other gods')
> Your screen name is certainly appropriate....you've been told all you should know and you're still "artfully dodging" the facts you've received here. Note, I said "dodging"...quite different from "accepting", which in no way is being expected from you at all.
> I'm quite sure you just wouldn't fit in, as you indicate.
> Not into the Loyal Order of the Moose, the Elks, the Knights of Columbus, or any other fraternal order requiring a profession of belief in a supreme being.
> I've probably had this same conversation hundreds of times over the past 50 years....the conclusion is always the same.
> A man will get out of the Masons exactly what he puts into it and nothing more.
> Do not forget:  Masonry is not recruiting or trying any "salesmanship" on you.  *You* would have to recruit Masonry and do the "salesmanship" yourself as to being worthy of acceptance. All candidates must do likewise should they choose to travel the Masonic Rites.
> Stay happy.



You are doing a pretty good job of explaining yourself, Freemasonry, and Christianity. I do not feel I'm dodging the facts. I'm just trying to understand the facts and the justification of the rituals and the parallel of the dying & rebirth, truth & light. Rituals that also include temples and altars, prayers, a moral code, & Bibles. Why would one use the Holy Bible for a fraternity with no religious affliation?  A fraternity that only requires a belief in a Supreme Being. The Bible speaks of a Supreme Being and this beings Son. I understand other fraternities and organizations use prayer and or Bibles/Chaplains but as for as I know they aren't promoting a form of Light. If so I would be inclined to not join them either. I don't agree with the Moose or Elks either in their rituals or the requirement of a supreme being. 

It appears Christian Masons perform  this rebirth  concept twice. Once in Christianity and once in Freemasonry. Why does a Christian need another rebirth? What more Light can a Christian gain than from the Holy Spirit?
Why the need of the two parallels? Isn't being born of water & the Holy Spirit the Light needed?
Can you share the light of Freemasonry with other masons who worship other Gods other than the Father of Jesus? The Gods you mentioned are not capable of being the Great Architect. Are the various light colors the different paths one could take to worshipping the Great Architect?
When a Freemason is given "light" by the Worshipful master during his initiation, how does that not conflict with a Christian's belief that Jesus has already brought him into the light from darkness (through salvation)?
Why can you share the Christian Light but not the Masonic Light?


----------



## Artfuldodger

What drives a Christian to seek another Light? Why can't the Bible be the only source of Light? Why not insist that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven? Why not spread the message that Jesus is the light of the World? Why not agree that all Christians are in the Light and not just Masonic Christians? 
If I ever find "Light" other than what I already possess, I can assure you that I will share this Light with every brother freely. We should all stay happy as we seek the Light.
I do understand that light is symbolic of truth or knowledge. Thanks to all for sharing their thoughts.


----------



## Atlanta Dawg

The Mason's is a fine group-There are always"Nay Sayer's " !  Follow your own thought when joining any organization.


----------



## The mtn man

CrazyCatfish said:


> ************ just wanted to update everyone **********
> 
> i stood my proficiency on my EA degree last night and passed with flying colors.....
> 
> i really enjoyed the lecture on the fellow craft degree and look forward to listening and learning and being coached  as i progress further in my degree work...
> 
> come join us sometime >> springville lodge # 153
> -powder springs, ga


Congratulations brother I hope to meet you someday in our journey


----------



## The mtn man

brofoster said:


> Well I hope they don't kill me cause I'm pretty black.  I am a Freemason and have been for some years now as a military man who has truly "traveled to foreign countries"!  I am baptized and saved.  My relationship with God through Jesus Christ comes first.   I believed all the horror stories and danced around Masonry for years.  That is until one of my uncles gave me a chest before he died.  Its contained the writing and rituals that were over 150 years old that belong my grandfather and his father before him all the way up until they were freed.  My people were not treated like average blacks back then in GA because of the respect my family gained through being leaders and civil servants through Masonry.  I will just say this and I will leave it alone God first, then Jesus, then family, then the Lodge.  Some brothers love Masonry so much that they stop going to church which sends the wrong message to those outside the lodge, or they love the brotherhood so much it takes center stage in their life.  Let people talk.  They don't have a heaven or - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - to put either one of us in.
> Brofoster
> Chaplain ECJ #318
> Melbourne FL
> Holy Royal Arch Mason



We'll said brother


----------



## The mtn man

Artfuldodger said:


> What drives a Christian to seek another Light? Why can't the Bible be the only source of Light? Why not insist that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven? Why not spread the message that Jesus is the light of the World? Why not agree that all Christians are in the Light and not just Masonic Christians?
> If I ever find "Light" other than what I already possess, I can assure you that I will share this Light with every brother freely. We should all stay happy as we seek the Light.
> I do understand that light is symbolic of truth or knowledge. Thanks to all for sharing their thoughts.


I stumbled across this thread and can say I have read every single post and have come to a conclusion that the ex masons who fled were possibly looking for something they didn't find whatever that was also one thing I do know is that a lodge is a brotherhood of like minded people if the fellow joined a lodge of folks that we're not like minded then there was some sort of confusion or perverted explanation of freemasonry as for the light of masonry you just will never know without being shown the light after reading your posts I think you would be disappointed if you found the light lol


----------



## Artfuldodger

cklem said:


> I stumbled across this thread and can say I have read every single post and have come to a conclusion that the ex masons who fled were possibly looking for something they didn't find whatever that was also one thing I do know is that a lodge is a brotherhood of like minded people if the fellow joined a lodge of folks that we're not like minded then there was some sort of confusion or perverted explanation of freemasonry as for the light of masonry you just will never know without being shown the light after reading your posts I think you would be disappointed if you found the light lol



I probably would be disappointed  in the "light of masonry."
Mainly because I know the true Light to be Jesus. I do understand Christian masons  know of this true  Light also. 
My point is Hindu masons, Jewish masons, & Muslim masons believe they know the true light. While they believe the know the true light, I believe they don't. Freemasonry agrees with them instead of me.
While everyone in your local lodge is like minded Christians, this isn't so in the world fraternity nor is it a requirement.
I feel this has nothing to to with the righteousness or lack there of, of it's members. I'm sure most of the individuals of most lodges are better men than some Church members when it comes to being good.
The real problem is Christianity isn't based on being good but realizing one can't be good and thus needing a Redeemer. Only then can a man through the help of the Holy Spirit, after being born again, journey towards becoming a better person. He needs this to journey  towards "being good."


----------



## The mtn man

Artfuldodger said:


> I probably would be disappointed  in the "light of masonry."
> Mainly because I know the true Light to be Jesus. I do understand Christian masons  know of this true  Light also.
> My point is Hindu masons, Jewish masons, & Muslim masons believe they know the true light. While they believe the know the true light, I believe they don't. Freemasonry agrees with them instead of me.
> While everyone in your local lodge is like minded Christians, this isn't so in the world fraternity nor is it a requirement.
> I feel this has nothing to to with the righteousness or lack there of, of it's members. I'm sure most of the individuals of most lodges are better men than some Church members when it comes to being good.
> The real problem is Christianity isn't based on being good but realizing one can't be good and thus needing a Redeemer. Only then can a man through the help of the Holy Spirit, after being born again, journey towards becoming a better person. He needs this to journey  towards "being good."


I agree 100 percent with you regarding salvation and the fact that Jesus Christ the son of god is the only way to our Heavenly Father I just think that some take free masonry out of context as for a masoniclodge  being some sort of weird church I guess some lodges could be if I sat in one and seen these weird perverted things I would run for the door or make a new one I will be honest I petitioned our local lodge out of curiosity after herring all kinds of things and found the allegations quite humurous after being raised to the degree of master mason there are representations if taken out of context could make one think we were a bunch of weirdos but it is nothing more than a bunch of men who might not have much in common in the outside world that more or less agree to come together for charity purposes outside of other organized charitable events also with the agreement of watching out for one another and their families sorry for poor punctuation this iPhone keeps deleting them


----------



## Artfuldodger

cklem said:


> I agree 100 percent with you regarding salvation and the fact that Jesus Christ the son of god is the only way to our Heavenly Father I just think that some take free masonry out of context as for a masoniclodge  being some sort of weird church I guess some lodges could be if I sat in one and seen these weird perverted things I would run for the door or make a new one I will be honest I petitioned our local lodge out of curiosity after herring all kinds of things and found the allegations quite humurous after being raised to the degree of master mason there are representations if taken out of context could make one think we were a bunch of weirdos but it is nothing more than a bunch of men who might not have much in common in the outside world that more or less agree to come together for charity purposes outside of other organized charitable events also with the agreement of watching out for one another and their families sorry for poor punctuation this iPhone keeps deleting them



I agree with you too and don't think Freemasonry is some weird religious cult or anything. I kinda felt like it was before I researched it. Now I believe it to be just a fraternity. 
I don't have a problem with others joining it's just not for me. My problem is as mentioned earlier is the parallels  between the Freemasonry rituals and Christian rituals that I wouldn't feel comfortable taking a part in. I wouldn't feel comfortable with the "Light" given to me by the Worshipful master during my initiation.  If someone else can then they are free to join. If they can understand that it's all just for make believe and it isn't a real travel, that it's all just symbols, then by all means join. 
Good luck on your travels and I do hope we all learn more as we all travel. Especially when it comes to helping others and loving brothers.


----------



## The mtn man

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree with you too and don't think Freemasonry is some weird religious cult or anything. I kinda felt like it was before I researched it. Now I believe it to be just a fraternity.
> I don't have a problem with others joining it's just not for me. My problem is as mentioned earlier is the parallels  between the Freemasonry rituals and Christian rituals that I wouldn't feel comfortable taking a part in. I wouldn't feel comfortable with the "Light" given to me by the Worshipful master during my initiation.  If someone else can then they are free to join. If they can understand that it's all just for make believe and it isn't a real travel, that it's all just symbols, then by all means join.
> Good luck on your travels and I do hope we all learn more as we all travel. Especially when it comes to helping others and loving brothers.


Thanks I will tell you how how masonry fits in my priorities 1st is my relationship with my savior 2nd is my family 3rd is my job or the way I support myself and my family masonry fits in there with hunting and fishing and other extra coricular activities I enjoy fellowship with lodge members and enjoy some of the lectures there are some words of wisdom we as productive members of society can live by I believe if someone petitions a lodge for some sort of spiritual journey then they are truly lost and misguided as for mentioning my lord and savior Jesus Christ in the lodge I have on many occasions seen men give testimonies during an open lodge meeting as to what Jesus Christ has done in their lives I guess it would depend on the lodge I could not sit in a lodge with a bunch of men who prayed to a god that in my faith does not exists if that happened in my lodge I know every member in my lodge would not go for that either as far as men of another race being members I have sat in lodge with prince hall brothers their skin is different than mine but I my eyes are my Masonic brothers and if they are saved they are my brothers in Christ nothing more nothing less I have never heard or experienced any type of racial discrimination in the lodge I hope this clears up a few things for some I am willing to answer sone questions but understand there is no brother on this forum that can speak for every mason on this earth as to their faith and to their interpretation of free masonry


----------



## Artfuldodger

cklem said:


> Thanks I will tell you how how masonry fits in my priorities 1st is my relationship with my savior 2nd is my family 3rd is my job or the way I support myself and my family masonry fits in there with hunting and fishing and other extra coricular activities I enjoy fellowship with lodge members and enjoy some of the lectures there are some words of wisdom we as productive members of society can live by I believe if someone petitions a lodge for some sort of spiritual journey then they are truly lost and misguided as for mentioning my lord and savior Jesus Christ in the lodge I have on many occasions seen men give testimonies during an open lodge meeting as to what Jesus Christ has done in their lives I guess it would depend on the lodge I could not sit in a lodge with a bunch of men who prayed to a god that in my faith does not exists if that happened in my lodge I know every member in my lodge would not go for that either as far as men of another race being members I have sat in lodge with prince hall brothers their skin is different than mine but I my eyes are my Masonic brothers and if they are saved they are my brothers in Christ nothing more nothing less I have never heard or experienced any type of racial discrimination in the lodge I hope this clears up a few things for some I am willing to answer sone questions but understand there is no brother on this forum that can speak for every mason on this earth as to their faith and to their interpretation of free masonry



Amen, good testimony and priorities.


----------



## The mtn man

Artfuldodger said:


> Amen, good testimony and priorities.



Thank you Heaven is my #1 goal in life Jesus is my way there free masonry to me is an outlet for me to fellowship with like minded men who I might not see every Sunday morning in church in part because some go to different churches or don't go do any type of organized worship service at all most all of these men however wayward they may be I have found no fault in them except that they are men who sin everyday just like you and me my hope would be that by being Masonic brothers with them that may be lost that some of us could be a witness them and that would plant a seed that may lead them to salvation in a lot of way like a sort of outreach ministry to those that normally don't associate with saved people a whole lot I see it as a good fellowship opportunity an opportunity for men of all walks to help one another through the struggles of this worldly life we have to live and a great opportunity to lead someone to the Lord


----------



## The mtn man

I would like to try to get across one more point, with the posts above aside, there is a very, very strong corolation between the founding of this great nation and Masonic principles, this is what I take from it, all men are "CREATED" equal, we are all on the same "LEVEL", No matter if your a billionair or a walmart greeter, we are both men, none better than the other, our bodies were created out of earth, and to the earth our bodies will return, no matter how big your checking account is. we should be "SQUARE" in all our dealings with all mankind,we should not be cheaters, liers, or decievers for our own worldly gain, also that I am a free man, a gift given to me by my Creator, I will not bow to any man, I will not live under an oppressive regiem, be it if they are taking away my freedom of worship or to make my own way in this world. I will, by my own free will give charity to anyone I find worthy, I will to a point welcome all mankind to break bread with me, no matter his origin, I will not defile my own principles and beliefs to justify anything, or anyone. If a brother mason commits some atrosity to his fellow man then he is no longer welcome in the fraternity, we will no longer find him worthy. If he is found to be a lier, a cheat, or any other of the sort, he will not be found worthy, the masonic lodge will not tell men how to live their lives but do lay down some basic principles, if you commit adultry, that is your business, if you commit adultry with a brother masons wife or daughter, you will no longer be found worthy among your masonic brethern, I just wanted to throw a few things out there to some of those that insist we are devil worshippers. Thanks for reading.


----------



## leroy

cklem said:


> If he is found to be a lier, a cheat, or any other of the sort, he will not be found worthy, the masonic lodge will not tell men how to live their lives but do lay down some basic principles, if you commit adultry, that is your business, if you commit adultry with a brother masons wife or daughter, you will no longer be found worthy among your masonic brethern, I just wanted to throw a few things out there to some of those that insist we are devil worshippers. Thanks for reading.



 So no room for liars and cheats but the way I see it an adulter is a liar and a cheat of the worst kind BUT as long as members stay away from the fellow brothers women no harm no foul  Hmmmmm makes sense


----------



## leroy

cklem said:


> Thank you Heaven is my #1 goal in life Jesus is my way there free masonry to me is an outlet for me to fellowship with like minded men who I might not see every Sunday morning in church in part because some go to different churches or don't go do any type of organized worship service at all most all of these men however wayward they may be I have found no fault in them except that they are men who sin everyday just like you and me my hope would be that by being Masonic brothers with them that may be lost that some of us could be a witness them and that would plant a seed that may lead them to salvation in a lot of way like a sort of outreach ministry to those that normally don't associate with saved people a whole lot I see it as a good fellowship opportunity an opportunity for men of all walks to help one another through the struggles of this worldly life we have to live and a great opportunity to lead someone to the Lord



So its an outreach? I thought the discussion or promotion of religion over another was against the rules inside the lodge? To hear most on here membership is made up of the most upmost christian men


----------



## White Horse

leroy said:


> So no room for liars and cheats but the way I see it an adulter is a liar and a cheat of the worst kind BUT as long as members stay away from the fellow brothers women no harm no foul  Hmmmmm makes sense



Not the idea at all. A Mason swears to abstain from unlawful relations with a fellow Mason's women relatives and wives, but that does not condone unlawful relations with women who don't fall into those categories. And, since just about any woman is related to a Mason in some way, the coverage is pretty wide.

If you want to break up a fraternity just get the brethren fighting over women. That's why Masons don't misuse women.

Likewise, a Mason must believe in a Supreme Being, but just how he worships is is own business, since Masonry is a fraternity, not a church.


----------



## The mtn man

White Horse said:


> Not the idea at all. A Mason swears to abstain from unlawful relations with a fellow Mason's women relatives and wives, but that does not condone unlawful relations with women who don't fall into those categories. And, since just about any woman is related to a Mason in some way, the coverage is pretty wide.
> 
> If you want to break up a fraternity just get the brethren fighting over women. That's why Masons don't misuse women.
> 
> Likewise, a Mason must believe in a Supreme Being, but just how he worships is is own business, since Masonry is a fraternity, not a church.



When folks Ask a question, while already in there mind they , their opinion is formed. And will not change, I really don't care what the Masonic conspiracy folks envolved in this thread think anymore, you guys follow your narrow minds and believe what you want. Some of you ask question, then want to argue or degrade the answer. This conversation is pointless. Maybe some day I can be as spiritual as some of you, maybe as righteous as you, that's my goal, because I'm sure you guys are the ones gettin into heaven , I guess they want be any free masons there, so there will be no need for you to worry.rant wasn't aimed at Whitehorse.


----------



## GA native

There is nothing sinister about the freemasonry. Don't let the ignorant dissuade you.


----------



## obligated

Making good men better.Its that simple.We do charitable work and like to associate with our brothers of like mind.Nothing sinister.Not really even secret.My wife knew my obligations before I did from looking on lineMaster Mason from Allegheny 114.


----------



## apoint

ThomasCobb123 said:


> From my posting #573...I repeat:
> *Masonry does not offer or promise any plan of salvation, initiates are taught that when they are admitted.*
> Any belief system that promises to take you to heaven in the hereafter will not be found in the Masonic Lodge.  Such a belief will be between the individual and his own personal God.  My personal faith tells me that I cannot achieve eternal life except through believing in Jesus Christ as the Son of the Living God. And that he died a substitutionary death for me so I would not receive the eternal spiritual death which I deserve. He paid my sin debt for me.
> I have no idea what yours tells you.
> If a route to a spiritual hereafter is what you call 'truth' you will not find it in a Masonic Lodge.
> If you are searching for 'light', the only light you will find in a lodge of Masons is "Masonic Light" and Masonic Light only.
> For what it's worth, a person can boast and display every Masonic working tool, every Masonic sign, symbol, or whatever, until the day he dies, but it will NOT get that person one inch closer to eternal life.
> This speculative Masonic Light is legendary, even though the characters are taken from the old testament in the King James Bible.  Masonic Light is primarily concerned with certain legendary events and activities that occurred in and around the building of King Solomon's temple.
> The lessons inculcated therein are by no means of a light or trifling nature. They're some guidelines for living an upright life.
> There are Masons who're drunks, adulterers, cheaters in business, just as there are the same types in churches, other fraternal orders, or the U.S. congress.  Most Masons, however, attend their lodge meetings as an adjunct to their core religious beliefs.
> Curiosity seekers will quickly become bored with the whole thing when they discover that passwords, signs, and symbols will not help them in business or other profane objectives...."it jes' ain't there".
> Masons meet "on the level".
> To a Freemason, on the level means just that — all Freemasons are Brothers
> who meet on the same level, regardless of their social or economic status
> outside the lodge.
> Princes, presidents, and captains of business are no better or more important than bus drivers, plumbers, and paper boys when they sit in the lodge together.
> Masonry does not detract from a man’s accomplishments,
> nor does it exalt him above his Brothers because of his position outside the
> lodge.
> So mote it be.



-------------------------------------------------

"So mote it be" is the exact statement made in wicka and witchcraft.......


----------



## White Horse

apoint said:


> [/COLOR]
> -------------------------------------------------
> 
> "So mote it be" is the exact statement made in wicka and witchcraft.......



And how did you learn that? Hearsay or personal experience? References please.


----------



## obligated

White Horse said:


> And how did you learn that? Hearsay or personal experience? References please.



The internets


----------



## centerpin fan




----------



## apoint

White Horse said:


> And how did you learn that? Hearsay or personal experience? References please.[/QUOT
> 
> You must not be nearly enlightened as you think you are.
> "Smot it be" is Well known witchcraft statement the world over.
> Google it for yourself.
> If it weren't for the FM, witchcraft would have died out yrs ago.


----------



## obligated

apoint said:


> White Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> And how did you learn that? Hearsay or personal experience? References please.[/QUOT
> 
> You must not be nearly enlightened as you think you are.
> "Smot it be" is Well known witchcraft statement the world over.
> Google it for yourself.
> If it weren't for the FM, witchcraft would have died out yrs ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it wasn't for religion pedophilia and war would have died out centuries ago.
Click to expand...


----------



## White Horse

apoint said:


> White Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> And how did you learn that? Hearsay or personal experience? References please.[/QUOT
> 
> You must not be nearly enlightened as you think you are.
> "Smot it be" is Well known witchcraft statement the world over.
> Google it for yourself.
> If it weren't for the FM, witchcraft would have died out yrs ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, your source is the Internet?
Click to expand...


----------



## apoint

White Horse said:


> apoint said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, your source is the Internet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> No and no again no..
> Don't take my word for it.. search it for yourself..
Click to expand...


----------



## apoint

obligated said:


> apoint said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it wasn't for religion pedophilia and war would have died out centuries ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Try not to spin things and stay with the truth and on the issue. Your laughing icons are childish.
Click to expand...


----------



## Doboy Dawg

*CCat*

I'm not gonna tell you what to do.  But I am the type that does extensive research on anything I look into.  My grandfather was a mason.  I was destined to join but the more I looked into the secret society the more red flags came up for me.  My grandfather was Primitive Baptist and I was raised Methodist and when I got older joined the Southern Baptist Church.

Do your own research.  I researched the Masons extensively talked with my pastor and found my grandfathers masonic books.  I came to the personal decision that Jesus Christ meant none of Christianity to be cloaked in secrecy.  Some of the eastern mysticism the masons use is just too much in line with idolatry for me and that is my personal choice.

I encourage you to be a Berean and search the scriptures and pray with the men of your church before you decide.


----------



## White Horse

apoint said:


> White Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> No and no again no..
> Don't take my word for it.. search it for yourself..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Already have. That's why I don't take your word for it.
> 
> "So mote it be" essentially means "Amen." Masonry has been using the phrase for a long time, but any and all other groups are completely free to copy it and use it. Many have.
Click to expand...


----------



## apoint

White Horse said:


> apoint said:
> 
> 
> 
> Already have. That's why I don't take your word for it.
> 
> "So mote it be" essentially means "Amen." Masonry has been using the phrase for a long time, but any and all other groups are completely free to copy it and use it. Many have.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amen is Hebrew.. "So mote it be" is witchcraft. How does it feel to belong to a coven?  I use to have the masonic book and have read it. Purely, spells and incantations straight from the pit of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored. Get away from the mason's and ask for forgiveness quick as you can.
> The Hells Angels put on functions and donate to good causes also to cover their true secret Brotherhood outlaw society.
> You can put lipstick on a pig but its still a pig.
> I will say this for the last time...
> Mason's and shriners are nothing less than witchcraft...
Click to expand...


----------



## obligated

apoint said:


> obligated said:
> 
> 
> 
> Try not to spin things and stay with the truth and on the issue. Your laughing icons are childish.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your post was serious?Research most religous holidays and they have Pagan origins.Some dont like people but sheeple so they can be controlled.I have never seen any satanic chants or articles in a Lodge.The day I do someone will hear me.I researched the term before being raised a Master Mason.We believe in a creator but dont push any brand of religion or politics unlike most "religions"We have had many "church people"that were turned away because of criminal records though.
Click to expand...


----------



## White Horse

apoint said:


> White Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amen is Hebrew.. "So mote it be" is witchcraft. How does it feel to belong to a coven?  I use to have the masonic book and have read it. Purely, spells and incantations straight from the pit of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored. Get away from the mason's and ask for forgiveness quick as you can.
> The Hells Angels put on functions and donate to good causes also to cover their true secret Brotherhood outlaw society.
> You can put lipstick on a pig but its still a pig.
> I will say this for the last time...
> Mason's and shriners are nothing less than witchcraft...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know? Have you been to a Masonic meeting? How about a Shrine meeting? If you have not attended yourself, then you are taking somebody's word for it.
> 
> Would George Washington, Harry Truman, Ernest Borgnine, or Red Skelton have practiced witchcraft?
> 
> How about the many ministers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ who are Masons? Are they practicing witchcraft?
Click to expand...


----------



## apoint

White Horse said:


> apoint said:
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know? Have you been to a Masonic meeting? How about a Shrine meeting? If you have not attended yourself, then you are taking somebody's word for it.
> 
> Would George Washington, Harry Truman, Ernest Borgnine, or Red Skelton have practiced witchcraft?
> 
> How about the many ministers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ who are Masons? Are they practicing witchcraft?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As I said before, I have the masonic book.
> Most all presidents were masons, deceived one and all just like you... Ministers are men , just plain old human beings just like you.
> Yes they all are using witchcraft and probably unknown to them what they do.
> The devil will deceive many thru peace but will lead to destruction.
> Sir, you are not talking to a fanatic or religious nut case. To coin the term," been there done that".
> I don't care about what grand dad did or famous people did, they are all deceived.
Click to expand...


----------



## White Horse

apoint said:


> White Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> As I said before, I have the masonic book.
> Most all presidents were masons, deceived one and all just like you... Ministers are men , just plain old human beings just like you.
> Yes they all are using witchcraft and probably unknown to them what they do.
> The devil will deceive many thru peace but will lead to destruction.
> Sir, you are not talking to a fanatic or religious nut case. To coin the term," been there done that".
> I don't care about what grand dad did or famous people did, they are all deceived.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What "Masonic Book" do you have? Title, author, publication date, please.
Click to expand...


----------



## apoint

White Horse said:


> apoint said:
> 
> 
> 
> What "Masonic Book" do you have? Title, author, publication date, please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry but that book has been buried in the attic for years with many other books I don't care to look at and don't have a clue where it is.  Your question has nothing to do with the truth and the truth never changes.
Click to expand...


----------



## White Horse

apoint said:


> White Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry but that book has been buried in the attic for years with many other books I don't care to look at and don't have a clue where it is.  Your question has nothing to do with the truth and the truth never changes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So, let's see, you say that "Masonry is witchcraft" and you base that statement on a book you claim to have read, but you can't or won't quote the title and other publication information so that others can read it and educate themselves as you have.
> 
> We are supposed to believe you just based on what you have posted here, contrary to all we have witnessed ourselves and read ourselves.
> 
> Perhaps I am not the one being deceived.
Click to expand...


----------



## WaltL1

apoint said:


> White Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amen is Hebrew.. "So mote it be" is witchcraft. How does it feel to belong to a coven?  I use to have the masonic book and have read it. Purely, spells and incantations straight from the pit of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored. Get away from the mason's and ask for forgiveness quick as you can.
> The Hells Angels put on functions and donate to good causes also to cover their true secret Brotherhood outlaw society.
> You can put lipstick on a pig but its still a pig.
> I will say this for the last time...
> Mason's and shriners are nothing less than witchcraft...
> 
> 
> 
> The word God is used numerous times in the Quran.
> Does that make them Christian?
> Does that make you Islamic?
> If your answer is no to those questions then apply the reason why you answered no to the use of "so mote it be".
> By the way Im not a Mason or Christian.
> But I do believe in common sense.
Click to expand...


----------



## centerpin fan

WaltL1 said:


> But I do believe in common sense.



I believe in using the "quote" function correctly.  You guys are killing me.


----------



## rjcruiser

centerpin fan said:


> I believe in using the "quote" function correctly.  You guys are killing me.



Fo Sho


----------



## WaltL1

centerpin fan said:


> I believe in using the "quote" function correctly.  You guys are killing me.


Its not a real big secret on how to use the quote feauture.
But I think the format of the post you are quoting can make it come out wrong. Notice the post that I used the quote button on.


----------



## obligated

White Horse said:


> apoint said:
> 
> 
> 
> What "Masonic Book" do you have? Title, author, publication date, please.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Only book I got from my Lodge was a King James Version of the Holy Bible with a pretty blue cover.Everything I learned was mouth to ear in Lodge.No book.Whats that smell?
Click to expand...


----------



## apoint

White Horse said:


> apoint said:
> 
> 
> 
> So, let's see, you say that "Masonry is witchcraft" and you base that statement on a book you claim to have read, but you can't or won't quote the title and other publication information so that others can read it and educate themselves as you have.
> 
> We are supposed to believe you just based on what you have posted here, contrary to all we have witnessed ourselves and read ourselves.
> 
> Perhaps I am not the one being deceived.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> First you would have to realize you are being deceived. So since you will not or can not realize, then all the talk in the world wont help.
> Once you have been brainwashed by your secret brotherhood I doubt anything will change that.
Click to expand...


----------



## apoint

obligated said:


> White Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Only book I got from my Lodge was a King James Version of the Holy Bible with a pretty blue cover.Everything I learned was mouth to ear in Lodge.No book.Whats that smell?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WOW ,you have been left behind.. No mason book???
> Guess they can only trust the real truth with the elite.
> Guess that smell is your upper lip.
Click to expand...


----------



## obligated

SO MOTE IT BE!Ill stay with my brothers on the level rather than associate with people that think they are righteous or better than others.Thats one of the reasons I dont like religion.I had to pass criminal background before being accepted into the Lodge.I like eating shoulder to shoulder with non-felons that believe we are ALL equal unlike SOME churches that are full of perverts and felons hiding in sheeps skin.Produce a book or leave it be.


----------



## apoint

obligated said:


> SO MOTE IT BE!Ill stay with my brothers on the level rather than associate with people that think they are righteous or better than others.Thats one of the reasons I dont like religion.I had to pass criminal background before being accepted into the Lodge.I like eating shoulder to shoulder with non-felons that believe we are ALL equal unlike SOME churches that are full of perverts and felons hiding in sheeps skin.Produce a book or leave it be.


------------------------------------------------------------
 You will stay with your self righteous brothers for eternity but you wont like it dn there. You will bow dn to your god and man.
  I will not produce any satanic mason book or spread it's evil.
Funny you talk about hiding behind sheep skins and that exactly what mason's wear in their satanic rituals.
 This would be very amusing if it was not devil worship.
   So go put on your sheep skin and bow dn to your grand master. CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored is not quite yet full.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Why is the term "raised" used in Freemasonry? Does it signify a resurrection or new birth as a new man?


----------



## apoint

Artfuldodger said:


> Why is the term "raised" used in Freemasonry? Does it signify a resurrection or new birth as a new man?



All things were created by G-d all mighty.
 Satan and witchcraft [ masons] twist all things that G-d made. hence, anti-Christ.........


----------



## Artfuldodger

obligated said:


> SO MOTE IT BE!Ill stay with my brothers on the level rather than associate with people that think they are righteous or better than others.Thats one of the reasons I dont like religion.I had to pass criminal background before being accepted into the Lodge.I like eating shoulder to shoulder with non-felons that believe we are ALL equal unlike SOME churches that are full of perverts and felons hiding in sheeps skin.Produce a book or leave it be.



It's understandable that Freemasonry isn't Christianity with the required background check. Freemasonry is about works and Christianity is about traveling the correct path by being given God's grace. God's grace grants salvation that doesn't require a background check. This concept does let tares into the Church. This is just something the sheep must learn to accept and live with.


----------



## Artfuldodger

apoint said:


> All things were created by G-d all mighty.
> Satan and witchcraft [ masons] twist all things that G-d made. hence, anti-Christ.........



Do you practice some type of messianic Judaism? The reason I'm asking is your use of G-d. In your Masonic research what is the use of the term "raised?


----------



## apoint

Artfuldodger said:


> It's understandable that Freemasonry isn't Christianity with the required background check. Freemasonry is about works and Christianity is about traveling the correct path by being given God's grace. God's grace grants salvation that doesn't require a background check. This concept does let tares into the Church. This is just something the sheep must learn to accept and live with.



Wonder if a background check gets you past the 10 commandments........


----------



## apoint

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you practice some type of messianic Judaism? The reason I'm asking is your use of G-d. In your Masonic research what is the use of the term "raised?



 I believe in the religion that Yesuha teached, which is "The Kingdom Of God".
 I had rather a mason answer your "raised" question.


----------



## Artfuldodger

apoint said:


> I believe in the religion that Yesuha teached, which is "The Kingdom Of God".
> I had rather a mason answer your "raised" question.



Amen, but you do agree that a man must die and be "raised" a spiritual body in order to enter this Kingdom of God?


----------



## obligated

apoint said:


> Wonder if a background check gets you past the 10 commandments........



If you follow the Ten Commandments you should have no problem passing a CRIMINAL background check.They also check for your moral character.Its a faternity of brothers except we have parameters we are held to by our brothers and by the fact that the creator sees all things.Nothing is hidden from God though some forget that.Everyone sins and some go to prison for it.If they repent and change,God bless them.Keep in mind we arent a religion so we dont have to accept that person in our brotherhood.Like any brotherhood we have handshakes,ceremonies and rules.Our rules are based off a famous book that still is a number 1 seller!


----------



## obligated

Artfuldodger said:


> It's understandable that Freemasonry isn't Christianity with the required background check. Freemasonry is about works and Christianity is about traveling the correct path by being given God's grace. God's grace grants salvation that doesn't require a background check. This concept does let tares into the Church. This is just something the sheep must learn to accept and live with.



We arent a religion.We are a brotherhood or Faternity if that helps you understand us.If someone is interested in Masonry ask to be one.If you dont like it dont stay!I heard a lot of stupid things about Masons.I had people tell me they saw goat heads with pentagrams,orgies and other crazy stories.I become a Master Mason and no Satanic symbols and ...no orgies.Thank God its a all male brotherhood!Just a bunch of old guys enjoying meals together and going to lodge with like minded people.We do charity work at our ability.Nothing wrong with assisting with a hand UP.Nothing sinister unless you believe we are plotting to rule the world and bring in a new world order!Im kidding.


----------



## obligated

apoint said:


> All things were created by G-d all mighty.
> Satan and witchcraft [ masons] twist all things that G-d made. hence, anti-Christ.........


----------



## White Horse

In typical Anti-Mason fashion apoint claims to know all about Masonry by virtue of having read a "Mason book," but when challenged to produce the citation for said book, he can't or won't. And, once again typical of Anti-Masons he claims that ordinary Masons are being used by their higher-ups for nefarious purposes and are being deceived into not knowing what Masonry is all about.

He calls the Craft "self righteous" but claims like the above are self righteous if anything is, having no proof except anonymous Internet forum postings. 

Anti-Masons have been attacking the Fraternity with this same tommyrot for hundreds of years but Masonry is still with us.  

Answering this sort of libel is a waste of time. Anti-Masons think they are all knowing and feed on replies to their gibberish, producing ever more vehement denunciations with each.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I wouldn't consider myself an anti-mason but ask questions more for obtaining a historical view of the similarities between fraternities, religions, etc.
I guess I'm just curious about the death of the new man and being raised a new man. Then we throw in how this goes along with the Mormon rites of passage as if it mirrors Masonic rites.

It isn't just masonic rites as I'm also interested in how Christianity incorporate the Pagan holidays as well. Also the similarities between Christianity and the religions that are older than Christianity.

I do understand that Freemasonry isn't a religion or witchcraft.


----------



## rjcruiser

WaltL1 said:


> Its not a real big secret on how to use the quote feauture.
> But I think the format of the post you are quoting can make it come out wrong. Notice the post that I used the quote button on.



Have to have an end to the quote to make it work correctly...and when you quote a person who has messed up the quote prior...it just continues on.

For instance, in this quote below, it has two beginning quotes, but only one end.  so...it looks messed up.



obligated said:


> White Horse said:
> 
> 
> 
> Only book I got from my Lodge was a King James Version of the Holy Bible with a pretty blue cover.Everything I learned was mouth to ear in Lodge.No book.Whats that smell?
Click to expand...


----------



## apoint

Some things you cant fix.
That's why Yeshua said," My sheep hear my voice".
  Every thing else will be thrown into to fire like stubble.


----------



## apoint

Artfuldodger said:


> I wouldn't consider myself an anti-mason but ask questions more for obtaining a historical view of the similarities between fraternities, religions, etc.
> I guess I'm just curious about the death of the new man and being raised a new man. Then we throw in how this goes along with the Mormon rites of passage as if it mirrors Masonic rites.
> 
> It isn't just masonic rites as I'm also interested in how Christianity incorporate the Pagan holidays as well. Also the similarities between Christianity and the religions that are older than Christianity.
> 
> I do understand that Freemasonry isn't a religion or witchcraft.



 Masonry is no doubt witchcraft. 
Christianity was corrupted by men's association with pagan beliefs. Certain religions came from a pagan belief and intermingled one with the other.
 Yeshua's preaching was pure Christianity and man can only degrade its purity, not improve it.


----------



## apoint

obligated said:


> If you follow the Ten Commandments you should have no problem passing a CRIMINAL background check.They also check for your moral character.Its a faternity of brothers except we have parameters we are held to by our brothers and by the fact that the creator sees all things.Nothing is hidden from God though some forget that.Everyone sins and some go to prison for it.If they repent and change,God bless them.Keep in mind we arent a religion so we dont have to accept that person in our brotherhood.Like any brotherhood we have handshakes,ceremonies and rules.Our rules are based off a famous book that still is a number 1 seller!



NO MAN has ever kept even 1 of the 10 commandments. 
 Geesh.


----------



## obligated

apoint said:


> NO MAN has ever kept even 1 of the 10 commandments.
> Geesh.



This folks is why I dont go to church.I said FOLLOW the 10 commandments.READING COMPREHENSION,You dont have it.No man is perfect and all fall short of gods glory except you I suppose.Bless your heart!


----------



## apoint

obligated said:


> This folks is why I dont go to church.I said FOLLOW the 10 commandments.READING COMPREHENSION,You dont have it.No man is perfect and all fall short of gods glory except you I suppose.Bless your heart!



You don't go to church because of your infinite wisdom and your just smarter than everyone else..
   I know what you said and what you meant..
 To bad you don't understand what I said.
  Since you cant win using reason You twist my words, same strategy the evil one uses, you must know him well..
 This is where you put another childish Icon up because that's all you have.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I was reading a little bit about the differences and parallels of dying and being reborn in Christianity and Freemasonry.
In Christianity Jesus died and was resurrected as a Savior which gives God the capability to grant salvation.
In Freemasonry Hiram Abiff is murdered and resurrects. Similar but I'm not sure or it's not clear to me as to how Masons view Hiram Abiff as a saviour or if he offers any type of salvation. I'm not even sure if they believe he is a real person. 
There is some parallel to a sort of rebirth as a new man. I think their temple rituals actually portray the candidates dying and being reborn. 
Christianity isn't the only religion that has a Redeemer offering salvation. The Persian god Mithras, the Redeemer, also offered salvation to his followers.
There are also some parallels to "Light" and "Enlightenment" used.


----------



## obligated

apoint said:


> You don't go to church because of your infinite wisdom and your just smarter than everyone else..
> I know what you said and what you meant..
> To bad you don't understand what I said.
> Since you cant win using reason You twist my words, same strategy the evil one uses, you must know him well..
> This is where you put another childish Icon up because that's all you have.



Yeah,Ill be comfortable in CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored if there arent a bunch of holier than thou people there.I hear its warm and the women are friendly.Bye


----------



## ghadarits

*Becoming a Mason*

Crazy catfish, I'm not a Mason but know and have known many men who where and with only one exception they are or were all good family men.  To take it a little further one of them was one of the biggest influences for me on how a good husband and father acts and carries himself.

Congrats to you. I hope you turn out half as good as the guys I've looked up to who are and were Masons.


----------



## apoint

ghadarits said:


> Crazy catfish, I'm not a Mason but know and have known many men who where and with only one exception they are or were all good family men.  To take it a little further one of them was one of the biggest influences for me on how a good husband and father acts and carries himself.
> 
> Congrats to you. I hope you turn out half as good as the guys I've looked up to who are and were Masons.



Yep, road to H--- is paved with good intensions, gota love em.


----------



## ghadarits

My dad always said to remember that half the folks out there are below average.


----------



## apoint

ghadarits said:


> My dad always said to remember that half the folks out there are below average.



And the other half thinks the same as the first half. How about 2 halves make a whole. I think 95% don't have a clue and 4% don't care and the remaining 1% don't have an account which makes them a no account. Well their ya go.


----------



## Doboy Dawg

*Baphomet?*

Who is Baphomet to Freemasonry?


----------



## tonyrittenhouse

bigdawg25 said:


> this is one question which has eluded normal folks for centuries. Whenever someone asks this, they are told to become a member and then find out for themselves. If this wasnt the case then FM really wont be nearly as controversial as they are now.



Sounds like our government "we must pass the law to know what's in the law"


----------



## tonyrittenhouse

rjcruiser said:


> Does having a "big old King James" Bible in the middle of the meeting place make a club or organization somehow "christian?"



No, it does not even the devil knows the bible and believes Jesus is real.


----------



## tonyrittenhouse

JLow10 said:


> I do not go to the lodge to talk about christ just like i dont go to work or the ballpark or the woods or the mall or bass pro shops to talk about christ!  I go to church.  That is the best "translation"!!



All this secret stuff with the fm just does not seem right to me. I am complete opposite of what you are saying in this quote. I read in the Bible:  Matthew 5:16 - Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven and also:  Matthew 5:14 - Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.  That is why I tell everyone what Jesus has done for me no matter where it may be.


----------



## White Horse

Doboy Dawg said:


> Who is Baphomet to Freemasonry?



Nothing. The term "Baphomet" occurs nowhere in Freemasonry.

Now watch. Several Anti-Masons will show up to "reveal" all the stuff they know from reading some book that they refuse to share with the rest of us, and will say that I haven't been far enough in Masonry to know what I'm talking about, that I'm being deceived, etc.


----------



## Artfuldodger

White Horse said:


> Nothing. The term "Baphomet" occurs nowhere in Freemasonry.
> 
> Now watch. Several Anti-Masons will show up to "reveal" all the stuff they know from reading some book that they refuse to share with the rest of us, and will say that I haven't been far enough in Masonry to know what I'm talking about, that I'm being deceived, etc.



Apprentice, journeyman or fellow (now called Fellowcraft), and Master Mason. These are the degrees offered by craft, or blue lodge Freemasonry.
I don't believe there is any way to go farther into Masonry than Master Mason. 
A Master Mason can go into one of the appendant bodies such as the Schottish Rite but event that isn't higher.


----------



## Artfuldodger

The Woodman of the World fraternity had initiates "ride a goat" as part the initiation. Maybe the Elks fraternity too. A goat is just a goat.

From this link;
The Modern Woodmen of the World—created in Iowa in 1883—made use of a mechanical goat. A major promoter of the Modern Woodmen was Ed DeMoulin who started DeMoulin Bros. in 1890 to cater to, and promote, the use of an ever-expanding list of initiation devices.6 The growth of the Modern Woodmen may have encouraged other North American fraternities to adopt similar practices. A 1915 published ritual of the Modern Woodmen has a list of all of the articles used in the ceremony, including a goat.
There was certainly no secret about the Woodmen goat.

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/goat.html


----------



## j_seph

I know nothing, and am not judging but here is a good read

http://www.cuttingedge.org/free004.html


----------



## White Horse

j_seph said:


> I know nothing, and am not judging but here is a good read
> 
> http://www.cuttingedge.org/free004.html



As usual that screed on "Cutting Edge" takes quotations from such as Mackey and Pike out of context, and then adds commentary to make them appear to be as negative as possible.

No matter what such Anti-Masonic websites may claim, Freemasonry is not a religion. It is a fraternity.

Remember, Mackey, Pike, the alleged former Chaplain whose screed is published there on "Cutting Edge," White Horse, and others simply offer their own opinion. No one is a spokesman for the Masonic Fraternity as a whole. Each state in the Union has its own Grand Lodge, which is the superior Masonic authority within each geographical area. Likewise, foreign countries have their own jurisdictions and their practices and rules may vary a lot from those here in Georgia.

As always, study for yourself and make up your own mind.


----------



## Doboy Dawg

*Masons*



Artfuldodger said:


> Apprentice, journeyman or fellow (now called Fellowcraft), and Master Mason. These are the degrees offered by craft, or blue lodge Freemasonry.
> I don't believe there is any way to go farther into Masonry than Master Mason.
> A Master Mason can go into one of the appendant bodies such as the Schottish Rite but event that isn't higher.



All I know about the Masons was what I've seen and read.  From what I've seen and read I want no part of it.  My grandfather was a Master Mason 32 or 33 deg or whatever you call it.  He was into the Scottish Rite.  My grandmother was Eastern Star.  As a child I was brought to the lodge with them for various functions aka like social parties.  These all took place in the downstairs of the lodge as we were forbidden to go upstairs, haha.  What happens when you tell an 8 year old boy he cannot go upstairs? 

 I can tell you what happens when nobody was looking I went upstairs and I dug into every drawer I could find, pried open doors and found the secret rooms, LOL.  From the ages of 8-16 I slipped into every single room of the lodge.

Funny thing was my grandfather Never ever talked about what went on inside the lodge.  I had seen the charts, the scrolls, the wall hangings, the symbols, and etc..  He was also a Primitive Baptist deacon.

All the time I knew him, he was a good man, everybody loved him.  He took the place of my missing in action father.  He raised me, but he never spoke of the Masons.  He showed me his ring and a secret handshake or something of the like to identify other masons.  Which I don't remember.

Now my grandmother told me all about the the grandfather that I did not know, the full fledged alcoholic Shriner, the man he used to be.  After he died my mom was then told she had a half brother in Florida that for 44 years she had not known of. 

The death of my grandfather devastated me he was like my real dad to me.  After the Masonic Scottish Rite funeral,(bagpipes), there was a traditional Baptist funeral.  A few months after his death my grandmother told me to go in his room and look for anything I might want to keep, which turned out to be an old .22 rifle. 

 But I found all of his Masonic and Scottish Rite books.  I was 18 when he died and an avid reader by then.  I took the books and read into them and I could not get over the  Eastern Mysticism and symbology.  I don't know which book it was in but the picture of Baphomet and the description of him sent chills down my spine.  I put the books back where I found them as far as I know nobody knew I had them or how long I had them.

I knew enough that Jesus was not the author of confusion, secret, or hidden works.  Later on in life I read more and studied more about the Masons and the more I read and the more I studied the more I did not want anything to do with it.

Now I will not condemn you or anyone else who chooses to go the Masonic path.  But it is not for me, as for me and my house we shall worship the Lord Jesus Christ.  The Jesus that was born of a virgin, died on a cross, and arose from the grave three days later!

I don't need enlightenment, I received the Holy Spirit the day I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior.  Afterwards I was baptized as a public profession of my faith.

I will not argue my faith with anyone.  I was raised in a Methodist church.  My grandparents went to a Primitive Baptist church, which I loved as a kid.  After my grandfather passed away my grandmother started going to a Southern Baptist church which I loved even more as a young adult.

I have served in the military and law enforcement and have been around the chapels.  I studied comparative religions during those years and lived some prodigal son years and then I came back into a Southern Baptist church.  

God Bless You and Keep You


----------



## apoint

fellowcraft or witchcraft all the same gibberish. "Mote it be" is the words of all witchcrafters
 You either bow dn to the one and only master creator of the universe -OR- bow to man the master mason. I bow to NO MAN..


----------



## White Horse

apoint said:


> fellowcraft or witchcraft all the same gibberish. "Mote it be" is the words of all witchcrafters
> You either bow dn to the one and only master creator of the universe -OR- bow to man the master mason. I bow to NO MAN..



And you know all this how? Book, page, publication information please. Or is it just your opinion? Or your imagination?


----------



## apoint

White Horse said:


> And you know all this how? Book, page, publication information please. Or is it just your opinion? Or your imagination?



 So, your infinite knowledge of all things, you Don't know this? Amazing.

http://www.wiccantogether.com/group...:Comment:1697418&groupId=1070680:Group:165424


----------



## White Horse

apoint said:


> So, your infinite knowledge of all things, you Don't know this? Amazing.
> 
> http://www.wiccantogether.com/group...:Comment:1697418&groupId=1070680:Group:165424



Sweetie, when did I claim "infinite knowledge of all things?" And, just because some "Wiccans" claim one thing or another, what does that mean to me? I am not a "Wiccan."

You are the one who claims to know, but who won't give us your references (except for a link to some obscure "Wiccan" website) so that we can learn too.


----------



## apoint

White Horse said:


> Sweetie, when did I claim "infinite knowledge of all things?" And, just because some "Wiccans" claim one thing or another, what does that mean to me? I am not a "Wiccan."
> 
> You are the one who claims to know, but who won't give us your references (except for a link to some obscure "Wiccan" website) so that we can learn too.


 First of all, I only like women so you will have to find yourself another sweetie. You ask for the truth and I gave you the factual truth and your still in denial.
  Once said," you cant handle the truth".
  I answered your question , now please tell us about the secret rituals you masons preform, and I will show you again where they originated from.


----------



## Artfuldodger

apoint said:


> First of all, I only like women so you will have to find yourself another sweetie. You ask for the truth and I gave you the factual truth and your still in denial.
> Once said," you cant handle the truth".
> I answered your question , now please tell us about the secret rituals you masons preform, and I will show you again where they originated from.



The rituals concerning death of the old man and rebirth sound more like Christianity than Wiccan.


----------



## apoint

Artfuldodger said:


> The rituals concerning death of the old man and rebirth sound more like Christianity than Wiccan.



Actually, witchcraft takes all things of God and twist them into the unholy. Ever heard of antichrist...
 Ever heard of the devil deceiving. Ever heard of satan being an angel of light but he is a deceiver.
 I know  more than I care to admit and I surly do not want to perpetuate the knowledge of evil.
 God created all things and there is nothing created that he did not create. So , a lot of evil is distorted in a vail of seemingly good. For instance, abortion is named "plan parenthood" and goes disguised as women's health when its murder for profit.
 Again, " affordable health care system", the list goes on.


----------



## White Horse

apoint said:


> First of all, I only like women so you will have to find yourself another sweetie. You ask for the truth and I gave you the factual truth and your still in denial.
> Once said," you cant handle the truth".
> I answered your question , now please tell us about the secret rituals you masons preform, and I will show you again where they originated from.



Sugar, I call you that because I figure you must be about 12 years old. A grown man would provide the citations for his outrageous claims. You claim knowledge and call names based on something you "know" but you won't explain how you know it. That's childish, and it makes us think you are just making it all up.


----------



## chocolate dog

Every time I come to this thread I'm reminded of how clueless and ignorant some really are.

It's funny watching some that call themself Christians judging from their high horse something they don't even have the slightest clue about.

Carry on, it's cheap entertainment


----------



## chocolate dog

White Horse said:


> Sugar, I call you that because I figure you must be about 12 years old. A grown man would provide the citations for his outrageous claims. You claim knowledge and call names based on something you "know" but you won't explain how you know it. That's childish, and it makes us think you are just making it all up.



It's ignorance at it's best.


----------



## apoint

White Horse said:


> Sugar, I call you that because I figure you must be about 12 years old. A grown man would provide the citations for his outrageous claims. You claim knowledge and call names based on something you "know" but you won't explain how you know it. That's childish, and it makes us think you are just making it all up.





All the personal attacks and childish name calling is coming from you and your mason witchcraft clan.
Exactly what liberals do when they cant win a debate.
Guess I hit a nerve with you man worshipers but I never knew it was a mans club because of lewd behaviour for other men as you keep demonstrating with sugar sweetie talk to the same gender.
I thought the rules for posting on Christian forum was you had to be a Christian. Ah well so goes the forum. 
__________________


----------



## White Horse

apoint said:


> All the personal attacks and childish name calling is coming from you and your mason witchcraft clan.
> Exactly what liberals do when they cant win a debate.
> Guess I hit a nerve with you man worshipers but I never knew it was a mans club because of lewd behaviour for other men as you keep demonstrating with sugar sweetie talk to the same gender.
> I thought the rules for posting on Christian forum was you had to be a Christian. Ah well so goes the forum.
> __________________



Let's see, I made fun of you by calling you "Sweetie" and "Sugar" while you have called me and all Masons "evil," "satanic," practitioners of "witchcraft," and "deceived," but you refuse to cite the book you claim to have learned all that from. The rules of debate require proof from the one making a proposition, and you can't prove a negative, so, if this was a debate it would be up to you to prove that "Masonry is witchcraft" but the only proof you have offered so far is a link to an obscure Internet site. 

How am I to know what gender you actually are?

And I still maintain that you are about 12 years old, not more than 13.


----------



## apoint

White Horse said:


> Let's see, I made fun of you by calling you "Sweetie" and "Sugar" while you have called me and all Masons "evil," "satanic," practitioners of "witchcraft," and "deceived," but you refuse to cite the book you claim to have learned all that from. The rules of debate require proof from the one making a proposition, and you can't prove a negative, so, if this was a debate it would be up to you to prove that "Masonry is witchcraft" but the only proof you have offered so far is a link to an obscure Internet site.
> 
> How am I to know what gender you actually are?
> 
> And I still maintain that you are about 12 years old, not more than 13.



http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Religions/Freemasonry/freemasonry_exposed.htm


----------



## apoint

apoint said:


> http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False Religions/Freemasonry/freemasonry_exposed.htm



http://www.cuttingedge.org/free14.html


----------



## apoint

apoint said:


> http://www.cuttingedge.org/free14.html



Videos must be embedded.


----------



## White Horse

You are good at finding Anti-Mason websites.

They are all rubbish.

For a complete refutation of all the Anti-Mason's illiterate calumnies, read:

Robinson, John J. A Pilgrim's Path: Freemasonry and the Religious Right. New York: M. Evans and Company, 1993.


----------



## apoint

White Horse said:


> You are good at finding Anti-Mason websites.
> 
> They are all rubbish.
> 
> For a complete refutation of all the Anti-Mason's illiterate calumnies, read:
> 
> Robinson, John J. A Pilgrim's Path: Freemasonry and the Religious Right. New York: M. Evans and Company, 1993.



Videos must be embedded.


----------



## Artfuldodger

apoint said:


> All the personal attacks and childish name calling is coming from you and your mason witchcraft clan.
> Exactly what liberals do when they cant win a debate.
> Guess I hit a nerve with you man worshipers but I never knew it was a mans club because of lewd behaviour for other men as you keep demonstrating with sugar sweetie talk to the same gender.
> I thought the rules for posting on Christian forum was you had to be a Christian. Ah well so goes the forum.
> __________________



The forum is about Christianity. You don't have to be a Christian to participate. You don't have to be a Christian to be a Free Mason, just believe in a Great Architect of the Universe. It's up to the individual person as how he sees this one Great Architect. It's the same in Boy Scouts too. Neither are just a Christian organization or religion but you can be a Christian. It would stand to reason that in America, most masons and Boy Scouts are Christian or future Christians. and in the middle east, most masons are Muslim or Jewish.
In this forum we would be required to discuss how Freemasonry affects Christians and Jews. Weird that we have a forum of combined Christianity and Judaism but that's another topic.


----------



## apoint

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/sociopol_brotherhoodss01c.htm


----------



## apoint

Artfuldodger said:


> The forum is about Christianity. You don't have to be a Christian to participate. You don't have to be a Christian to be a Free Mason, just believe in a Great Architect of the Universe. It's up to the individual person as how he sees this one Great Architect. It's the same in Boy Scouts too. Neither are just a Christian organization or religion but you can be a Christian. It would stand to reason that in America, most masons and Boy Scouts are Christian or future Christians. and in the middle east, most masons are Muslim or Jewish.
> In this forum we would be required to discuss how Freemasonry affects Christians and Jews. Weird that we have a forum of combined Christianity and Judaism but that's another topic.




Your statement in red is weird to me. Which tells me a lot about you.  You must think as white horse, that I am an ignorant 13 yr old. { Mathew 18-4  }
 You are not a Christian if your a freemason but a tool for satan himself.
 Please tell me what is a Christian.??


----------



## Artfuldodger

apoint said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Your statement in red is weird to me. Which tells me a lot about you.  You must think as white horse, that I am an ignorant 13 yr old. { Mathew 18-4  }
> You are not a Christian if your a freemason but a tool for satan himself.
> Please tell me what is a Christian.??



What is weird about a combined forum of Christianity and Judaism is one group are Christians and the other group is still waiting on a Messiah. Not to include Messianic Judaism as they are Christians. A Christian believes that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died for our sins, resurrected, and ascended to his Father. A Christian believes this has already happened.

It's as ironic to me to put them in the same forum as Freemasonry putting Muslims and Hindu believers in with Christians. It's as wrong to me as the Boy Scouts and Freemasonry only requiring a belief in a God instead of the God. This is one of the reasons I personally wouldn't want to be a member. This and their rituals on dying and rebirth. To do that would make me feel like I'm mocking my real rebirth. I don't believe they are a Satanic cult or that Satan is abusing them with trickery.

So what does this say about my beliefs? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, is my statement weird or the combined Christian Judaism forum weird?


----------



## White Horse

apoint said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> Your statement in red is weird to me. Which tells me a lot about you.  You must think as white horse, that I am an ignorant 13 yr old. { Mathew 18-4  }
> You are not a Christian if your a freemason but a tool for satan himself.
> Please tell me what is a Christian.??



About 99 percent of all American Freemasons are Christians.

Your prolific Anti-Mason sites make the same old mistakes, or tell the same old lies, over and over.

First, they almost always claim that Masonry is a religion. Not true: Masonry is a fraternity, not a religion.

Next, they almost always claim that there is a single worldwide "boss" or "chairman" of Masonry. Usually they claim that the head of the Scottish Rite is the head of Masonry. Not true.

Next, they like to claim that "Baphomet" somehow plays a role in Masonry. In reality that term is not found anywhere in Masonry. Another falsehood.

These alleged Anti-Mason "preachers" either don't do their research or are liars. Either way they are counting on and profiting from the ignorance of their followers.

Don't take my word for it, however, do your own research. The book by Robinson that I cite above explains it all.


----------



## apoint

You folks are a poor excuse. 
 ya cant make anyone see if they are blinded by their darkness. 
      Have a nice whatever.........


----------

