# Beware False Profits



## Skyking

this should prove a thought provoking message

  Beware False Prophets - By Steve Berkson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyG2b5ro51s


Published on Jan 5, 2014

Beware False Prophets by Steve Berkson at Beth Shalom Messianic Congregation.
Steve gives a memorable talk on identifying false prophets, false messiahs and how the world and christian church will be deceived in the last days. LISTEN & SHARE - This message needs to get out to the everyone!

You can access all of the teachings that Steve has shared on our website: http://www.now-is-the-time.org or on the podomatic site page: http://steveberkson.podomatic.com


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## BT Charlie

Torah obedience does not save, as this guy claims.  From that heresy, he builds a false construct claiming that Jesus Christ's next appearance on earth is not the second advent but the anti-Christ.

In a nutshell, this guy teaches:

If you attend "Sunday churches," eat unclean foods, fail to "know" the anti- Semite alterations of the New Testament post 100 AD ...
 then upon your death when you cry out Lord, Lord, then Jesus (Yeshuah Messiah) will say He never knew you.

Passes neither scriptural nor spiritual testing, in my humble view.  Get thee behind thee Satan.


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## BAR308

reminds me of a "preacher" i was friends with for a while that ran around saying... if you send your kids to public schools OR you have your kids vaccinated... you're going to sheol.


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## Ronnie T

Get thee behind me also.
.


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## Artfuldodger

I don't know that much about Messianic Jewish Christianity.

Jeremiah 31:31
"The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.

The Term - "New"

Both the Hebrew chadash (Jer. 31:31) and the Greek kainos (Heb. 8:8) words for "new" are more properly translated "renewed" as opposed to "new" or "brand-new." 
n the New Testament, of the eight times that "new" is applied to the new covenant, seven of them use the term kainos - renewed, or new in quality, not necessarily time (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25; 2 Cor. 3:6; Heb. 8:13; 9:15) as opposed to neos (meaning new in time - Heb. 12:24). The use of term kainos means there was a preexisting covenant to which Jesus gave a qualitative difference.

http://thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp/file/40555


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## Artfuldodger

A rebuttal from someone of that faith right here in Georgia:


Rebuttal to Steve Berkson's "Are You Saved" Teachings

Written by Tony Robinson. Posted in Addressing False Teachings.
Below are article rebuttals to Steve Berkson's "Are You Saved" Teachings. Steve Berkson, of Now Is The Time Ministries, has put forth a five-part teaching entitled "Are You Saved," in which he teaches the following - 1) No one is saved at this moment, 2) No one can know whether or not they are saved until judgment day, 3) On judgment day, the single factor, which determines whether or not you obtain eternal life will be your works done in obedience to Torah, 4) None of the people in Sunday churches are saved because they don't keep Torah. He is clearly teaching salvation by works (Torah obedience), which is contrary to the Scriptures. RTM has put together its own five part series of audio-visual presentations as a rebuttal to Mr. Berkson's heresy. These audio visual teachings contain actual audio from Mr. Berkson's messages so you, the viewer/listener can be sure that he is teaching salvation by works.

http://www.restorationoftorah.org/resources/addressing-false-teachings/16-rebuttals


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## Artfuldodger

I wonder what "no one is saved at the moment means?" Maybe we have the promise to be saved or the guarantee of salvation. Maybe we don't.


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## hobbs27

The law is death it binds dead men in slavery. Jesus Christ is life. He frees us through faith. Thanks for exposing those false prophets that want to bind dead men by the law...I choose life! I choose the New Testament of grace through faith! I choose the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, my Savior and Lord Jesus Christ, which has been given all authority by the Father!


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## centerpin fan

> 3) On judgment day, the single factor, which determines whether or not you obtain eternal life will be your works done in obedience to Torah, 4) None of the people in Sunday churches are saved because they don't keep Torah.



There is nothing new under the sun.

Acts 15:1-5:

 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.

3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through Phoenicia and Samaria, describing the conversion of the Gentiles; and they caused great joy to all the brethren. 4 And when they had come to Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders; and they reported all things that God had done with them. 5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who believed rose up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”


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## hobbs27

http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?b=45&c=7&com=mhc




Commentary on Romans 7:1-6

(Read Romans 7:1-6)

So long as a man continues under the law as a covenant, and seeks justification by his own obedience, he continues the slave of sin in some form. Nothing but the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, can make any sinner free from the law of sin and death. Believers are delivered from that power of the law, which condemns for the sins committed by them. And they are delivered from that power of the law which stirs up and provokes the sin that dwells in them. Understand this not of the law as a rule, but as a covenant of works. In profession and privilege, we are under a covenant of grace, and not under a covenant of works; under the gospel of Christ, not under the law of Moses.


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## Skyking

Thanks for taking the time to watch and comment guys...


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## Skyking

Artfuldodger said:


> A rebuttal from someone of that faith right here in Georgia:
> 
> 
> Rebuttal to Steve Berkson's "Are You Saved" Teachings
> 
> Tony Robinson.



Well ,I don't trust Tony Robinson any more than I would any other *man* giving his interpretation of scripture, you must still use discernment and your own judgement ...just saying what would make Robinson any more the authority than Berkson or you and I ?


you stated your unfamiliar with Messianics and so am I for that matter.I try very hard not to hang on a label and will gladly tell what I believe and practice I just draw the line at  man made traditions.


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## Artfuldodger

Skyking said:


> Well ,I don't trust Tony Robinson any more than I would any other *man* giving his interpretation of scripture, you must still use discernment and your own judgement ...just saying what would make Robinson any more the authority than Berkson or you and I ?
> 
> 
> you stated your unfamiliar with Messianics and so am I for that matter.I try very hard not to hang on a label and will gladly tell what I believe and practice I just draw the line at  man made traditions.



Good point. I have noticed a growing trend in the Messianic Sabbath keepers in Georgia.
I wonder what Berkson means by "no one is saved an this moment?


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## Skyking

Artfuldodger said:


> Good point. I have noticed a growing trend in the Messianic Sabbath keepers in Georgia.
> I wonder what Berkson means by "no one is saved an this moment?



he explains most all of this as he goes along and backs it up with scripture Art .He's able to put in words and teach what I've always felt in my spirit about the whole "reborn "and "just ask jesus in your heart" or alter call.


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## Artfuldodger

Skyking said:


> he explains most all of this as he goes along and backs it up with scripture Art .He's able to put in words and teach what I've always felt in my spirit about the whole "reborn "and "just ask jesus in your heart" or alter call.



What are the Messianic Church views or just yours on the reason Jesus had to die? How does this relate to sins being washed?


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## Lowjack

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't know that much about Messianic Jewish Christianity.
> 
> Jeremiah 31:31
> "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
> 
> The Term - "New"
> 
> Both the Hebrew chadash (Jer. 31:31) and the Greek kainos (Heb. 8:8) words for "new" are more properly translated "renewed" as opposed to "new" or "brand-new."
> n the New Testament, of the eight times that "new" is applied to the new covenant, seven of them use the term kainos - renewed, or new in quality, not necessarily time (Matt. 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor. 11:25; 2 Cor. 3:6; Heb. 8:13; 9:15) as opposed to neos (meaning new in time - Heb. 12:24). The use of term kainos means there was a preexisting covenant to which Jesus gave a qualitative difference.
> 
> http://thirdmill.org/answers/answer.asp/file/40555



The New Covenant is not yet established , the New Covenant will be when the Messiah returns ,The Word is clear the new covenant is with Israel and the house of Judah , Christianity is not the new covenant for a covenant must be establish by giving and receiving promises , in this case the New covenant is "to write the Torah in the hearts of all Jews" , that is obvious it has not happened yet.
Christianity is a paradox created by G-d to save the gentiles , this is about to cease as the word says when the days of the Gentiles is over" Apparently there is a limit to G-d's Grace under this paradox in time , for if Christ Yeshua had been accepted as the Messiah and king of Israel all gentiles would have had to disappeared from earth and only Jews saved , so G-d created this Glitch or paradox to save the gentile Nations to be merciful and fair, when the times of the Gentiles is over then The Messiah will return to Judge the NAtions and the dead and the living and then the New Covenant will be established with the House Of Yehuda and the House of Yisrael.


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## hobbs27

Lowjack said:


> The New Covenant is not yet established , the New Covenant will be when the Messiah returns ,The Word is clear the new covenant is with Israel and the house of Judah , Christianity is not the new covenant for a covenant must be establish by giving and receiving promises , in this case the New covenant is "to write the Torah in the hearts of all Jews" , that is obvious it has not happened yet.
> Christianity is a paradox created by G-d to save the gentiles , this is about to cease as the word says when the days of the Gentiles is over" Apparently there is a limit to G-d's Grace under this paradox in time , for if Christ Yeshua had been accepted as the Messiah and king of Israel all gentiles would have had to disappeared from earth and only Jews saved , so G-d created this Glitch or paradox to save the gentile Nations to be merciful and fair, when the times of the Gentiles is over then The Messiah will return to Judge the NAtions and the dead and the living and then the New Covenant will be established with the House Of Yehuda and the House of Yisrael.



Got Scripture?


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## Lowjack

hobbs27 said:


> Got Scripture?



Yes lots of it


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## Lowjack

Jeremiah 31 is so often quoted, but what was the actual promise made -- and to whom? Let's go through Jeremiah chapter 31, beginning with verse 31: 



 31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah  

The first hint of when the new covenant is established is that it is made with both the Houses of Israel and the House of Judah. When did Israel and Judah make this covenant? According to scripture, there was a national *rejection* of Yeshua when He came -- Israel and Judah did *not* make the New Covenant with Yeshua. Yet many Christians assert that the new covenant is now in effect. Impossible! G-d will *only* make this covenant with the Houses of Israel and Judah -- the 'church' cannot usurp this promise and steal it for themselves. The new covenant is still in the future. 



 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; forasmuch as they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, saith the LORD. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people; 

Here this covenant is contrasted to the written Torah -- this new covenant will be identified by the *heart having Torah*. Torah will be renewed among the Houses of Israel and Judah, Torah will be written in their hearts. Further, Israel and Judah will be His people -- He will be their G-d. Believers look for the day when G-d's people accept their Messiah -- this hasn't happened yet though. When the Jewish people call on Yeshua -- only then will He return and establish this promised new covenant. As Yeshua said: 
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." Matthew 23:37-39  
 Until that day, Yeshua will not return to establish the new covenant. The new covenant cannot be made until the parties (House of Israel and Judah) are willing to make it. 



 34 and they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying: 'Know the LORD'; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD; for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more. 

Again, this speaks of a still future time when all of Israel and Judah know their Messiah; a time when they do not need to be taught about the L-rd, because they all already know Him! This has not happened yet. 



 35 Thus saith the LORD, Who giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, who stirreth up the sea, that the waves thereof roar, the LORD of hosts is His name: 36 If these ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever. 37 Thus saith the LORD: If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, then will I also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. 

G-d's faithfulness -- He will never forsake His people, He will make a covenant He will never break. 



 38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananel unto the gate of the corner. 39 And the measuring line shall yet go out straight forward unto the hill Gareb, and shall turn about unto Goah. 

This is referring to the messianic kingdom -- a time when Israel will inhabit all the land they were originally promised. The Messianic kingdom is tied into the making of the new covenant -- they come together. Contrast this to what actually happened in 70 CE --- Israel *lost* possession of the land, they didn't gain control over the land. When the New Covenant is completed, Israel will be in her land, *never* to be forced out again. This is why the disciples asked in Acts 1:6: "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?"  They understood a new covenant was to be made and the messianic kingdom established; but with the national rejection of Yeshua, they were unsure when He would set things in motion and fulfill the new covenant promises. 



 40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. 

This promise is telling -- it refers to a time after a great war has come -- the tribulation. This has not happened yet; yet it is tied in to the time G-d makes the covenant with the Houses of Israel and Judah. 

 New Covenant in Ezekiel  

Similarly, in Ezekiel 36:26 we see the new heart and spirit, indicative of the new covenant, being discussed. And again, the description is tied in to the messianic kingdom, indicating a still future fulfillment of the new covenant promises. 



 Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep Mine ordinances, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be My people, and I will be your God. 

Here again we see the promise of this wonderful regeneration of Israel to come -- a time when G-d sends His Spirit to Israel (here still depicted in unbelief) and they will all obey G-d, and they will dwell in the land of their fathers! Dwelling in the land is the promise of the peaceful Messianic Kingdom. Let's examine Ezekiel 37, starting at verse 21: 



 21 And say unto them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land; 

Here we see the diaspora of Israel throughout the nations comes  before this peaceful covenant and Messianic Kingdom arrive. The Jews have been dispersed for some 2000 years -- not until 1948 do we see larger numbers of Jews beginning to return to the land of Israel. This diaspora occurred early -- James 1:1 sends greetings to "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad." 



 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all; 23 neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling-places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them; so shall they be My people, and I will be their God. 

Messiah will rule over the unified houses of Israel and Judah as one nation. This regeneration will mend and restore the nation and bring about their national salvation. This did not happen at Yeshua's first coming but still awaits future fulfillment. (Yeshua left their house desolate, because they weren't interested in the covenant He wanted to make with them - Matthew 23:38)


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## Lowjack

New Covenant in Ezekiel  

Similarly, in Ezekiel 36:26 we see the new heart and spirit, indicative of the new covenant, being discussed. And again, the description is tied in to the messianic kingdom, indicating a still future fulfillment of the new covenant promises. 



 Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put My spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes, and ye shall keep Mine ordinances, and do them. 28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be My people, and I will be your God. 

Here again we see the promise of this wonderful regeneration of Israel to come -- a time when G-d sends His Spirit to Israel (here still depicted in unbelief) and they will all obey G-d, and they will dwell in the land of their fathers! Dwelling in the land is the promise of the peaceful Messianic Kingdom. Let's examine Ezekiel 37, starting at verse 21: 



 21 And say unto them: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land; 

Here we see the diaspora of Israel throughout the nations comes  before this peaceful covenant and Messianic Kingdom arrive. The Jews have been dispersed for some 2000 years -- not until 1948 do we see larger numbers of Jews beginning to return to the land of Israel. This diaspora occurred early -- James 1:1 sends greetings to "the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad." 



 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all; 23 neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling-places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them; so shall they be My people, and I will be their God. 

Messiah will rule over the unified houses of Israel and Judah as one nation. This regeneration will mend and restore the nation and bring about their national salvation. This did not happen at Yeshua's first coming but still awaits future fulfillment. (Yeshua left their house desolate, because they weren't interested in the covenant He wanted to make with them - Matthew 23:38) 



 24 And My servant David shall be king over them, and they all shall have one shepherd; they shall also walk in Mine ordinances, and observe My statutes, and do them. 

Here Yeshua on throne ruling Messianic Kingdom is tied to the covenant G-d is making with Israel. And Israel will observe all the statutes, and walk by G-d's ordinances -- and they will succeed because His Torah will be written in their hearts, as promised. 



 25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children's children, for ever; and David My servant shall be their prince for ever. 

A reiteration of the promise G-d made Abraham --- this time when G-d brings them into the land and makes the New Covenant with them -- it will be forever. They will never leave the land again. 



 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them--it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will establish them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for ever. 

A dual promise -- not just the promise of this New Covenant, but a promise of the Messianic temple. 



 27 My dwelling-place also shall be over them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 

Again, the promise of regeneration -- of being a covenant people. 

When the new covenant is established, Israel will be back in their land; Torah will be on their hearts; G-d will be their G-d; they will all know him; there will be peace in the land; and Messiah will rule over them. Until these things happen, the new covenant cannot be in effect.


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## hobbs27

Lowjack, before I respond would you say your beliefs are more inline with the Sadducee, Pharisee, or Essene ?Thanks.


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## Ronnie T

The new covenant has come.
The Messiah has come.
.


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## Lowjack

hobbs27 said:


> Lowjack, before I respond would you say your beliefs are more inline with the Sadducee, Pharisee, or Essene ?Thanks.



None of those believed Yeshua was the messiah , so neither one is in line with my belief.


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## Lowjack

Ronnie T said:


> The new covenant has come.
> The Messiah has come.
> .



The Messiah did not complete his mission so there are things yet in the future to be fulfilled , Is he sitting in the throne of David ? HAs all the Jews accepted him and the Torah in their heart , then the covenanat is not yet.


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## Artfuldodger

Lowjack said:


> The Messiah did not complete his mission so there are things yet in the future to be fulfilled , Is he sitting in the throne of David ? HAs all the Jews accepted him and the Torah in their heart , then the covenanat is not yet.



Did the Messiah complete anything on the cross/resurrection? What did he mean when he said "it is finished?"


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## hobbs27

Lowjack said:


> None of those believed Yeshua was the messiah , so neither one is in line with my belief.



I asked so I would know how you felt about a resurrection, since there is a difference in the Sadducee and Pharisee on that matter, and to see if you were as spiritually minded as the Essene.

 I agree with your assessment as most modern Christians see things, but Im not most modern Christians. I proclaim that the Lords day has come and it is finished. The new heaven and new earth which has the river of life pouring from it for our salvation has come down from heaven and the new covenant is in place. Christ came back in judgement of the unfaithful wife Israel in 70 ad. and destroyed her and took on a new bride the new Jersusalem consists of Gentiles, and started with only  a few faithful Jews. The law is written in our hearts! Those of us that have been circumcised in the heart.

Matthew 24:3 
And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Christ didnt know the exact hour but He did know this.

Matthew 24:34-35
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


I believe every word recorded in the bible and I especially believe every word spoken of by Christ!


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## Lowjack

hobbs27 said:


> I asked so I would know how you felt about a resurrection, since there is a difference in the Sadducee and Pharisee on that matter, and to see if you were as spiritually minded as the Essene.
> 
> I agree with your assessment as most modern Christians see things, but Im not most modern Christians. I proclaim that the Lords day has come and it is finished. The new heaven and new earth which has the river of life pouring from it for our salvation has come down from heaven and the new covenant is in place. Christ came back in judgement of the unfaithful wife Israel in 70 ad. and destroyed her and took on a new bride the new Jersusalem consists of Gentiles, and started with only  a few faithful Jews. The law is written in our hearts! Those of us that have been circumcised in the heart.
> 
> Matthew 24:3
> And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
> 
> Christ didnt know the exact hour but He did know this.
> 
> Matthew 24:34-35
> 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
> 
> 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
> 
> 
> I believe every word recorded in the bible and I especially believe every word spoken of by Christ!



I'm Glad you believe
 the word is true, Just The interpretations of the Word by men can be wrong , I see you do not believe in a physical Kingdom here on earth with Messiah sitting on King David's throne , so we have a problem then , because this is exactly what the Bible teaches ,Then the time line of Israel returning to be a nation in one day as prophecied in the bible that right there is prove enough not everything was completed in the first coming as far as Matthew 24 the last generation not passing before all things were completed , what was to be completed ?But Salvation to all men, That was completed , but was Israel freed from its enemy as prophesied ? NO. One of the main Reasons Jews do not believe Yeshua was not the messiah is this not completing all Prophecies.
They forgot the Two servants" Messiah Ben Yosef and Messiah Ben David they saw this as two messiahs or Christs , they never imagine G-d could resurrect the same person and that person returned as Messiah Ben David it is a thorn hard to remove from a Jew's mind.
I believe many things have being fulfilled but we men think when we read a Prophecy it is all meant to happened right there and then , well it is not there are many prophecies that were fulfilled in part and then the rest in different times , hundreds of years apart.
We can see That Israel became a Nation in 1948 in one day as it was written that is another sign everything is not Completed , as Jews we understand the concepts of the Kingdoms this way , There is the Kingdom of God , The Kingdom of Heaven and the Messianic Kingdom, Christians await for the Messianic Kingdom so do we , but we also await for the Kingdom of God on Earth , this what we call the Olam Haba this will be the end of all sin on earth and Eternity With God. The New Testament hints on it when it says that Christ himself will submit himself to the Father and one will be his name".


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## Lowjack

Of Course I believe in the Resurrection of the dead , perhaps not the same way as some , but there will be several resurrections. The Pharisees believed in the Resurrection the Saducees did not , We the Karaite believe 100% the Torah and the Resurrection is promised to the whole house of Israel.


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## Lowjack

Artfuldodger said:


> Did the Messiah complete anything on the cross/resurrection? What did he mean when he said "it is finished?"



Yes he Completed a Method Of Salvation For mankind not based on the sacrifices prescribed by the Torah as Human Sacrifice was never given to The Priesthood , Yeshua died through another accepted Method By Jews of which he himself spoke of ," There is no greater love than one dying for another" Israelis accept this Sacrifice , even today we accept that when a soldier dies in Israel he has given his life for the rest of Israel, I do not accept Paul's teachings of dying according to Melchisedec Etc,That's not possible either as Both the Levitical Sacrifice and the Melchisedec sacrifice , required cutting the throat and bleeding , quartering the animal and burning the blood the fat and the skin and the meat , this is not the sacrifice the messiah did. Yeshua died this death of his own free will to save the World Both Gentiles and Jews are saved through this sacrifice.


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## Lowjack

Perhaps what this so called Messianic Preacher was trying to say was that "redemption" is not complete yet.
Even Yeshua said "when you se these things begin to happen Look up ! your redemption is neigh"But as far as being saved , Before the foundation of the World we are saved.There is a difference between been saved and Redemption.


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## hobbs27

Lowjack said:


> I'm Glad you believe
> the word is true, Just The interpretations of the Word by men can be wrong , I see you do not believe in a physical Kingdom here on earth with Messiah sitting on King David's throne, so we have a problem then , because this is exactly what the Bible teaches ,


 
Davids throne was an earthly throne,  Christ was born through Davids lineage and was king of the Jews on earth, correct?





> Then the time line of Israel returning to be a nation in one day as prophecied in the bible that right there is prove enough not everything was completed in the first coming as far as Matthew 24 the last generation not passing before all things were completed , what was to be completed ?



 The new Jerusalem is a spiritual nation- ie the church. And what was completed in Matthew 24? Everything Christ said would be, and He put a time stamp on it, within that generation. The end of the world came as He said it would.





> But Salvation to all men, That was completed , but was Israel freed from its enemy as prophesied ? NO.



 Israels enemy was the law. It was opressive to live under the law in which no one had contact with God except through a priest, yes Israels enemy has been defeated, welcome to grace.




> One of the main Reasons Jews do not believe Yeshua was not the messiah is this not completing all Prophecies.
> They forgot the Two servants" Messiah Ben Yosef and Messiah Ben David they saw this as two messiahs or Christs , they never imagine G-d could resurrect the same person and that person returned as Messiah Ben David it is a thorn hard to remove from a Jew's mind.
> I believe many things have being fulfilled but we men think when we read a Prophecy it is all meant to happened right there and then ,



 Funny, Ive had a hard time getting people t understand things have been fulfilled, too many people dont understand, when Daniel prophesied he sealed the prophecy and it was 500 years before his prophecy was to be fulfilled, yet John the revelator was told not to seal the prophecy, that Christ would come quickly---I dont believe this meant thousands of years.





> We can see That Israel became a Nation in 1948 in one day as it was written that is another sign everything is not Completed , as Jews we understand the concepts of the Kingdoms this way , There is the Kingdom of God , The Kingdom of Heaven and the Messianic Kingdom, Christians await for the Messianic Kingdom so do we , but we also await for the Kingdom of God on Earth , this what we call the Olam Haba this will be the end of all sin on earth and Eternity With God. The New Testament hints on it when it says that Christ himself will submit himself to the Father and one will be his name".



I am blessed by the very kingdom you await. It has always been my interest to study Jewish history and culture from the Old Testament, to help me better understand the scriptures and meanings. I respect your knowledge in the exact same field of study although we go in different directions. I hope it does not offend you that I call the law the enemy of Israel, but I have scripture to back that up if I must, and would not say that on a whim. 
 What Israel is now, is not a nation of Jews from the seed of Abraham, it was very hard to confirm that geneology in the time of Christ. It is a nation that will never know peace, and has no protection or blessings from God, know more that the nations of Ishmael, for Christ has been given all authority by the Father and Christ rules the kingdom of God!
 peace.


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## Ronnie T

Lowjack said:


> The Messiah did not complete his mission so there are things yet in the future to be fulfilled , Is he sitting in the throne of David ? HAs all the Jews accepted him and the Torah in their heart , then the covenanat is not yet.



Didn't complete His mission?

The Messiah came, and every Jew had an opportunity to accept Him.  Every Jew still has an opportunity.
The Kingdom has been established. 

The new covenant has been in effect for over 2,000 years.

This isn't about an unbelieving Jew.  This is about the Messiah, who can either be accepted or denied.

Acts chap 2, Peter's sermon.


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## Lowjack

Ronnie T said:


> Didn't complete His mission?
> 
> The Messiah came, and every Jew had an opportunity to accept Him.  Every Jew still has an opportunity.
> The Kingdom has been established.
> 
> The new covenant has been in effect for over 2,000 years.
> 
> This isn't about an unbelieving Jew.  This is about the Messiah, who can either be accepted or denied.
> 
> Acts chap 2, Peter's sermon.



That is your take on the religion created in Rome , but is not what the Torah and the entire bible is about , you have taken a Hebrew Book and accommodated it to your believes , creating a new religion , that is not what the messiah was supposed to do according to the scriptures , the Messiah came to the Jews , He said it ," I have come only to the house of Israel"The Messiah is a Jewish Concept not a Roman Pagan Concept , no he did not complete everything the Messiah was supposed to do , if it had you would not be here on earth.

How can every Jew had the opportunity to accept him when only two tribes were on the land at the time he came ??? Forgive me but I don't know where you get your Historical errors from ?

If Every Jew had been in the land then I would agree with you , the Diaspora Started 500 years before Christ.


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## Lowjack

hobbs27 said:


> Davids throne was an earthly throne,  Christ was born through Davids lineage and was king of the Jews on earth, correct?
> And that is what the Messiah is supposed to do , a physical Kingdom which will also fulfilled the Abrahamic Covenant , The Israelis have never has possession of the entire land promised and lived in peace.
> 
> 
> The new Jerusalem is a spiritual nation- ie the church. And what was completed in Matthew 24? Everything Christ said would be, and He put a time stamp on it, within that generation. The end of the world came as He said it would.
> 
> I partially Agree but the New Jerusalem is a physical City which will be brought to earth at the time of Christ return it will be set in orbit around the World it is the dwelling for the resurrected believers and transformed believers who will assist the Messiah in his Kingdom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Israels enemy was the law. It was opressive to live under the law in which no one had contact with God except through a priest, yes Israels enemy has been defeated, welcome to grace.
> 
> That is not true at all , the Law is a Blessing to Israel , I don't know where Paul formed that opinion , The Law sanctified Israel as a Special Nation in God's eyes. The Only law you are set free from is the law of Death and Curse issued in Eden.
> 
> 
> 
> Funny, Ive had a hard time getting people t understand things have been fulfilled, too many people dont understand, when Daniel prophesied he sealed the prophecy and it was 500 years before his prophecy was to be fulfilled, yet John the revelator was told not to seal the prophecy, that Christ would come quickly---I dont believe this meant thousands of years.
> 
> Thousand of years for us only minutes for Christ , Even the law of physics will agree , while thousands of years go by on earth only minutes in space as you get further from earth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am blessed by the very kingdom you await. It has always been my interest to study Jewish history and culture from the Old Testament, to help me better understand the scriptures and meanings. I respect your knowledge in the exact same field of study although we go in different directions. I hope it does not offend you that I call the law the enemy of Israel, but I have scripture to back that up if I must, and would not say that on a whim.
> What Israel is now, is not a nation of Jews from the seed of Abraham, it was very hard to confirm that geneology in the time of Christ. It is a nation that will never know peace, and has no protection or blessings from God, know more that the nations of Ishmael, for Christ has been given all authority by the Father and Christ rules the kingdom of God!
> peace.



The Scripture you have is that of Paul , Am I going to accept Paul's word or the Torah dictated to Moses by God, Who would think that God will give you deeds to live by and that at the same time it will be to oppressed you ?? That is Crazy theology ! The LAw was given to Israel a s a means of separating it from other nations , not as a means of Salvation , It is Paul's Idea that the LAw was to save ? it wasn't , the LAw was given because Israel had been saved !

Nice talking to you


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## hobbs27

Lowjack said:


> Nice talking to you



I hope this is sincere, because I really do enjoy talking with you. What you demonstrate is exactly true if Christ has not returned as He said He would. What you represent is more scriptural than what futurist Christians represent.
 Not one jot or tittle of the law is to change until He returns...I believe He has, so the law is abolished, I can't explain how futurist retain He has yet to return ..lest they practice the law.


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## Lowjack

If the Law was abolished then God lied , because he said it was a perpetual covenant , what part of perpetual do Christians not understand ? And with Abraham he also made a perpetual Covenant for ever and ever.
And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.
Genesis 17


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## Lowjack

All these things are not understood by western Christians because they try to inject themselves into Israel and its Covenants with God , therefore they do not understand this has nothing to do with the Church but all to do with all humans , but specially with Israel.
To start the Law was not given for everyone on earth ,ONLY for ISRAEL ,Leviticus 5 , the Covenant of the Law was given to the people there present that day , it wasn't even given to our ancestors , but those on Sinai on that day and their descendants so unles your ancestors were there on Pentecost Day , the Law is not for you.
Leviticus 5;1.
5 Moses summoned all Israel and said:

Hear, Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors[a] that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.

So maybe this is what Paul was trying to convey to everyone , the Law was not for gentiles but for Israelis.
Just like the US constitution is not for any other nation But The US !


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## Ronnie T

Paul and Peter and James and the others who were at the church in Jerusalem where this issue was discussed.

This was a problem that Paul and others had to deal with throughout all their lives of teaching the Gospel of Christ.  It never seemed to stop.  And it continues today.... for some.
.


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## hobbs27

Lowjack said:


> If the Law was abolished then God lied , because he said it was a perpetual covenant , what part of perpetual do Christians not understand ? And with Abraham he also made a perpetual Covenant for ever and ever.
> And I will establish my covenant between me and you and your offspring after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your offspring after you.
> Genesis 17



Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.


Jeremiah Chapter 3 



1They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

2Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy *****doms and with thy wickedness.

3Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no latter rain; and thou hadst a --'s forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

4Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My father, thou art the guide of my youth?

5Will he reserve his anger for ever? will he keep it to the end? Behold, thou hast spoken and done evil things as thou couldest.

6The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.

7And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me. But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.

8And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.

9And it came to pass through the lightness of her *****dom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.

10And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

11And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.

12Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.

13Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.

14Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

15And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.

16And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.

17At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

18In those days the house of Judah shall walk with the house of Israel, and they shall come together out of the land of the north to the land that I have given for an inheritance unto your fathers.

19But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me.

20Surely as a wife treacherously departeth from her husband, so have ye dealt treacherously with me, O house of Israel, saith the LORD.

21A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God.

22Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.

23Truly in vain is salvation hoped for from the hills, and from the multitude of mountains: truly in the LORD our God is the salvation of Israel.

24For shame hath devoured the labour of our fathers from our youth; their flocks and their herds, their sons and their daughters.

25We lie down in our shame, and our confusion covereth us: for we have sinned against the LORD our God, we and our fathers, from our youth even unto this day, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD our God.


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## Artfuldodger

I would add verses of branches broken and grafting but I suppose it was Paul(the self appointed preacher to the Gentiles)who said that.


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## 1gr8bldr

John tells us that false prophets are those who do not believe Jesus is  the son of God and that he came in the flesh. What does "coming in the flesh mean? On one hand, the Jews still don't think he has come. Could he be referring to this? Implying that yes he has come??? Or is it that Jesus has come as a man? The opposite of this that one would assume that he is combatting is that some believe he came as a spirit???? Or is John combatting those who say Jesus is God? Or, ideas, options?


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## Lowjack

1gr8bldr said:


> John tells us that false prophets are those who do not believe Jesus is  the son of God and that he came in the flesh. What does "coming in the flesh mean? On one hand, the Jews still don't think he has come. Could he be referring to this? Implying that yes he has come??? Or is it that Jesus has come as a man? The opposite of this that one would assume that he is combatting is that some believe he came as a spirit???? Or is John combatting those who say Jesus is God? Or, ideas, options?



Yeshua Came In The Flesh those who deny that are false spirits, When he was lifted unto the heavens , the angels announced " This same Yeshua whom you have seen leave shall return in the same matter" That coming has not yet happened, he hs not sat in David's throne yet , he has sat on the throne next to his Father in the Kingdom of heaven.


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## hobbs27

Jeremiah 4:13.  Behold, he shall come up like clouds,
And his chariots like a whirlwind.
His horses are swifter than eagles.
Woe to us, for we are plundered


Isaiah 66:15 For behold, The Lord will come with fire
And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire. 



Matthew 26:64. Jesus told him, "You said it. I am telling you then, that henceforth you shall see the Son of Man sitting from the right of the Power and coming over the clouds of heaven." 

ORIGINAL CONTEMPORARY TESTIMONIES

Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

“A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary, had this not been vouched for by eyewitnesses, then followed by subsequent disasters that deserved to be thus signalized. For before sunset chariots were seen in the air over the whole country, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and encircling the cities.”


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## hobbs27

In what manner did Jesus ascend? Taken up and a cloud received Him. In what manner did He return? Just as He said , in a cloud.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> In what manner did Jesus ascend? Taken up and a cloud received Him. In what manner did He return? Just as He said , in a cloud.



How long will Jesus be here? How long will we be here?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> How long will Jesus be here? How long will we be here?



Scripture does not point to an end of the new covenant.

Ephesians 3:21
King James Version (KJV)
21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


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## Lowjack

hobbs27 said:


> Jeremiah 4:13.  Behold, he shall come up like clouds,
> And his chariots like a whirlwind.
> His horses are swifter than eagles.
> Woe to us, for we are plundered
> 
> 
> Isaiah 66:15 For behold, The Lord will come with fire
> And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
> To render His anger with fury,
> And His rebuke with flames of fire.
> 
> 
> 
> Matthew 26:64. Jesus told him, "You said it. I am telling you then, that henceforth you shall see the Son of Man sitting from the right of the Power and coming over the clouds of heaven."
> 
> ORIGINAL CONTEMPORARY TESTIMONIES
> 
> Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
> "Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).
> 
> “A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary, had this not been vouched for by eyewitnesses, then followed by subsequent disasters that deserved to be thus signalized. For before sunset chariots were seen in the air over the whole country, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and encircling the cities.”



How come that is not say in the book Of Acts , such an Important thing would have been recorded by the Apostles or their disciples.
I'm I supposed to rely on Scriptures that are not spiritual to prove my point , we might as well then use the Hindu scriptures of "Mahabharata" which describes battles in the heavens by flying Machines (UFOs)and demons and beings with supernatural powers ,4000 years before Christ or in the 1500s in Europe there are paintings of events seen all over Europe of a battle between UFOs, Just where does it say in Josphus, that Christ was witnessed returning ?


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## Lowjack

According to the Bible, to say Jesus will or has already come again spiritually is the spirit of antichrist. If anyone claims he has shown up in their home or at their meeting they are denying that He will appear in glory, the same way and in the same place that he left- AS HE PROMISED (acts 1:11). If Jesus does not come back the way He promised in Scripture then we cannot trust the Scripture on what it says about anything about Him.

There are many who refuse to believe Christ took up the same body that died, believing in a spiritual resurrection. This is what the Jehovah witnesses believe. 1 John 4:2: “Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has  come in the flesh is not of God.” John is writing after the resurrection, he uses the perfect tense “has come” in the Greek language that denotes a past action with continuing results into the future. John makes it clear that Jesus came in the flesh, rose in the flesh and is still in the flesh.


He continues this concept in 2 John 7 “For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is  come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.” In this epistle John uses the present tense in Greek which focuses specifically on the future coming of the Lord. People that deny that Jesus rose in the flesh or is not coming back in the flesh, by saying He rose as or is coming back as a Spirit or in some other form other than His physical body, are of the spirit of anti-Christ. (1 John 4:2 focuses on the past; 2 John v. 7 focuses on the future). This is a physical body eternally glorified.

This is one of the ways to discern a false teacher from a true one. The statement perceives a already known answer- on who came in the flesh? Rom .9:5 “… and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.” 1 Tim. 3:16: “And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh.”


Also the perfect participle is used (eleluthota). This means, according to John, not only that Jesus Christ once came in the fullness of time clothed with flesh, but that He is still in this present condition. What happened at the incarnation has not been changed nor undone. Jesus Christ who 'is come, as man continues to abide in the flesh. Just as it states 1 Tim. 2:5 “For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.” If Jesus Christ is not today in flesh in heaven then the integrity of His incarnation has been forfeited, we have no true mediator. For he must be both God and man.

In 2 John 7, the deceivers are identified as men who 'confess not that Jesus Christ cometh in the flesh.' The expression 'in (the) flesh' is the same as in I John 4:2, the difference is the present participle has replaced 'the perfect participle, this is understood as a timeless present, which could very well be describing the second Advent.

If one claims that Christ rose as a spirit creature, and not physically, that the glorified body of our Lord is immaterial or non-flesh, is not only unscriptural but of they are of an anti -Christ spirit and denying the third point of the Gospel.

Writing after the Resurrection, John declared that Jesus "came [and remained] in the flesh" (1 John 4:2; 2 John 7). The body that emerged from the tomb Sunday morning was the same body that went in the tomb. He also showed His crucifixion scars on his hands and side on two occasions because of doubt from his disciples that he actually was alive again. To Thomas he said "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe" (John 20:27). He fell down and confessed him as his own Lord and God. Jesus said because you have seen you believe, blessed are they that have not seen and yet believe.” 

An invisible resurrection would lead to an invisible coming of Jesus. Like the Jehovah Witnesses there are those who claim Jesus came again in 70 ad. This denies the fact he rose again in the same body and is coming back in this body, seen by all. As Acts 1:11 states, He will come in the same manner he left, visibly, with the physical eye. 

A nonmaterial resurrection has no evidential value. If Christ did not rise in the same material body placed in the tomb, then the Resurrection loses its value as an evidence for His claim to be God. However, Jesus often offered His resurrection as a proof of His claims (John 2:19-22; 10:18). He even offered it as the unique sign of who He is, declaring that no other sign would be given to that unbelieving generation (Matt. 12:40).

The denial that Christ came in human flesh is called docetism. It diminishes the full humanity of Christ, either before or after His resurrection. This doctrinal error existed in the first century. John warned strongly concerning those who deny that 'Jesus Christ has come [and remain] in the flesh' (1 John 4:2), along with these words after the Resurrection in (2 John 7) ‘For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.”

Which makes the point even clearer. John considered it one of the ultimate denials of the message to deny flesh of Christ either before or  after His resurrection. Our human flesh is part of our human nature as God created it. We are both physical and spirit. John writes in his gospel in v.1-3 the word was God – in v. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us.”

To deny that Christ took upon himself human flesh or resurrected in his human flesh is to deny His true humanity. The resurrection body is not a spirit body but a "spiritual" (i.e., meaning a spirit-dominated and directed body 1 Cor. 15:44), it is a material body not an immaterial spirit body. 

Without Christ's resurrection being physical there is no salvation (Rom. 10:9), then He did not conquer death and we have no hope of him also dying for our sin The Resurrection is the completion of the gospel (the third phase) by which we are saved (1 Cor. 15:1-5). Without believing this in the same way we believe He died for us we cannot be saved.


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## Lowjack

The Messiah will be seen physically by all, specially Jews;
6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.Zec 13


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## Lowjack

NONE of this events have happened yet:
A. Israel attacked but defended by the returning Messiah.


1. (1-2) Jerusalem under siege from the nations.



Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, and your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem; the city shall be taken, the houses rifled, and the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, but the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.



a. I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem: Zechariah seems to have the very end times in view, when Jerusalem will be surrounded and attacked by some type of international force. When the Romans came against Jerusalem in 70 a.d. they came with a multinational army and brought terrible destruction on the city and its people. Yet there was none of the deliverance that Zechariah will describe in the following verses, so it is difficult to say that this was fulfilled in the Roman attack upon Jerusalem in 70 a.d.



b. Half the city shall go into captivity: This attack against Jerusalem will be severe, but the city itself will not be overthrown (the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city).



2. (3-5) The Messiah intervenes for His people.



Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west, making a very large valley; half of the mountain shall move toward the north and half of it toward the south. Then you shall flee through My mountain valley, for the mountain valley shall reach to Azal. Yes, you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You.



a. Then the Lord will go forth and fight: Just when it seems that all hope is gone for Jerusalem and the people of Israel, then the Lord will fight for His people.



i. “God is said to go forth when he manifests his power by delivering his people and punishing their enemies.” (Pulpit)



b. His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives . . . And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, from east to west: This speaks of the Lord - Jesus, as God the Son - materially returning to a material earth and setting His feet on the Mount of Olives. At that time a great split will cut the Mount of Olives in two, and the persecuted people of Jerusalem will flee through the valley made by the split.



c. Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You: Jesus will touch His feet to the Mount of Olives when He returns in glory with all the saints, the armies of heaven described in Revelation 19:14.



i. This was the type of arrival the Jews in Jesus’ day hoped for. Indeed, when the Roman armies surrounded Jerusalem in 70 a.d. a mistaken assurance from prophecies like this made the Jews utterly confident that the Messiah would return from heaven and wipe out the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem. They could not see that the Messiah must first be rejected and the nation brought to repentance as Zechariah mentioned in 11:12-13 and 12:10.



B. The Kingdom of the Messiah.



1. (6-11) The Messiah’s rule changes the earth.



It shall come to pass in that day that there will be no light; the lights will diminish. It shall be one day which is known to the Lord; neither day nor night. But at evening time it shall happen that it will be light. And in that day it shall be that living waters shall flow from Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and half of them toward the western sea; in both summer and winter it shall occur. And the Lord shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be; “The Lord is one,” and His name one. All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be raised up and inhabited in her place from Benjamin’s Gate to the place of the First Gate and the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananeel to the king’s winepresses. The people shall dwell in it; and no longer shall there be utter destruction, but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.



a. At evening time it shall happen that it will be light: Now Zechariah looks forward to the glory of Jerusalem in the Messiah’s kingdom. The lights we guide our lives by will diminish, but God will bring His own light.



b. Living waters shall flow from Jerusalem: Jerusalem will no longer be a dry city, but a glorious river will flow from the city and branch off both east and west, and it will be a never ending flow (in both summer and winter it shall occur).



i. All over the world people want to know what will happen to Jerusalem. Zechariah knows the answer - God will gloriously save and restore Jerusalem, making it the capital city of the millennial earth.



ii. Ezekiel 47 records a vision that may describe this scene. Ezekiel saw a river flowing from the throne of God and down to the Dead Sea, bringing life and vitality everywhere.



c. All the land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: Since the mountains around Jerusalem are no longer needed as a defense, they can be flattened into a plain.



d. Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited: This will be the first time in a long time that Jerusalem will be a safe place to live.



2. (12-15) Enemies are forever plagued.



And this shall be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, and their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths. It shall come to pass in that day that a great panic from the Lord will be among them. Everyone will seize the hand of his neighbor, and raise his hand against his neighbor’s hand; Judah also will fight at Jerusalem. And the wealth of all the surrounding nations shall be gathered together: Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance. Such also shall be the plague on the horse and the mule, on the camel and the donkey, and on all the cattle that will be in those camps. So shall this plague be.



a. Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet: In the glorious deliverance the Messiah brings, the enemies of God and His people are destroyed by plague, mutual slaughter, and by the sword of Judah (Judah also will fight at Jerusalem).



i. The description of flesh dissolving makes some think that Zechariah is describing the effects of a neutron or nuclear bomb.



b. The wealth of all the surrounding nations shall be gathered together: In the glorious deliverance the Messiah brings, Jerusalem will become a wealthy and influential city again.



3. (16-19) All the nations come to Jerusalem to worship the Lord.



And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.



a. Shall go up from year to year to worship the King: Instead of coming to Jerusalem for battle now the nations come to honor God and to remember His faithfulness to Israel in the wilderness by keeping the Feast of Tabernacles.



i. Jesus told us to go to the ends of the earth with the gospel but in the millennium the earth will come to Jerusalem to worship and honor God.



b. Whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem . . . on them there will be no rain: God won’t make people worship Him during the millennium, but the advantages of worshipping and honoring God will be more evident than ever.



c. If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain: Egypt is specifically mentioned because they were a nation not especially dependant on rain, yet they too would be punished if disobedient.



4. (20-21) The common is made holy.



In that day “Holiness to the Lord” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.



a. In that day “Holiness to the Lord” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses: This was the great inscription on the metal band around the high priest’s headpiece (Exodus 28:36). In the glory of the Messiah’s kingdom horses won’t be needed for war any longer - now even they can wear the emblems of Holiness to the Lord.



b. The pots in the Lord’s house: These were the cooking utensils used by worshippers to cook for their own the sacrificial meat intended for them from the peace offerings. The bowls before the altar were used to gather and sprinkle sacrificial blood on the altar. These show that animal sacrifice will continue in the millennium, but not as atonement for sin - which was perfectly satisfied by the atoning work of Jesus. Sacrifice in the millennium will look back to the perfect work of Jesus.



c. Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts: In the glory of the Messiah’s kingdom, what was previously common is made holy; the holy is made holier; and the irreclaimably profane is forever shut out. At the end of it all, there is no longer any distinction between the holy and profane. All is set apart to God and His purposes.



i. “The point is that the people and the city will be so holy that even these insignificant things will be fully dedicated to the Lord.” (Boice)



ii. There is a right way and a wrong way to eliminate the line between the holy and the profane: you can make everything holy (set apart to the Lord), or you can make everything profane (set apart to sin and self). Zechariah ends his prophecy making it clear that God’s way is the make everything that was once common or profane holy instead.


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## Lowjack

They will say, "What happened to the promise that Jesus is coming again? From before the times of our ancestors, everything has remained the same since the world was first created."

2nd Peter 3


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## hobbs27

Lowjack said:


> How come that is not say in the book Of Acts , such an Important thing would have been recorded by the Apostles or their disciples. ?



The book of Acts predates the events of 70AD. My home internet is down and I'm relying on my phone now, but I look forward to answering the rest of your posts soon. I love this!


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## hobbs27

> According to the Bible, to say Jesus will or has already come again spiritually is the spirit of antichrist. If anyone claims he has shown up in their home or at their meeting they are denying that He will appear in glory, the same way and in the same place that he left- AS HE PROMISED (acts 1:11). If Jesus does not come back the way He promised in Scripture then we cannot trust the Scripture on what it says about anything about Him.



1. I do not deny Christ was resurrected in the flesh.

2. Jesus appeared to many after the ascension. He met Saul on the road to Damascus, He stood beside Paul. Acts 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.
 Jesus was seen by John on the Isle of Patmos and did not resemble a man in the flesh for John described him as: "And I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned, I saw seven golden lampstands; and in the middle of the lampstands one like the Son of Man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His breast with a golden girdle. And His head and His hair were white like wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire; and His feet were like burnished bronze, when it had been caused to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. And in His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man.<---- This is the way Jesus would appear if we could lay eyes on Him today according to scripture.

 In like manner was not about flesh or land, it was about coming in the clouds and in glory.

 Why no witnesses recorded other than Josephus & Titus? Because the signs Jesus gave the believing Jews {first Christians} They knew to depart the city, Josephus recorded not a single Christian died in the seige of Jerusalem, the city was left desolate.

 Herods temple was completed in 66ad, There was two temples being built at the same time, The old physical temple, and the new spiritual temple.  Jesus was given all authority by the father and appeared (parousia) at Jerusalem to deliver its judgement and the physical temple was destroyed and the new spiritual temple was fully implemented and salvation came to all mankind.

Treasure of info here: http://www.bible.ca/pre-flavius-josephus-70AD-Mt24-fulfilled.htm


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## Skyking

Artfuldodger said:


> What are the Messianic Church views or just yours on the reason Jesus had to die? How does this relate to sins being washed?



this might answer a few of your questions better than I can Art

Eddie Chumney  back in Dec
this was a very good message and I've shared this with many folks and they agreed
start at about 37 min.
http://new.livestream.com/LionLambMinistries/2013-VaYigash


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## hobbs27

Through Christ no one is any longer a prisoner to the law. 

Freed from the Law

7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Sin’s Advantage in the Law

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Law Cannot Save from Sin

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.


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## Skyking

hobbs27 said:


> prisoner to the law.
> 
> Sin



hobbs ,a quick question or two 

how does scripture define sin ?

and where is "prisoner to the law" in scripture ?

and we still need to define law ! Do you feel that according to scripture your a prisoner to the law ?


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## hobbs27

Skyking said:


> hobbs ,a quick question or two
> 
> how does scripture define sin ?
> 
> and where is "prisoner to the law" in scripture ?
> 
> and we still need to define law ! Do you feel that according to scripture your a prisoner to the law ?



I think this will be a good start and I will color in some of the parts that pertain more to this topic.BTW, Sin is defined as transgressions  1John 5:17


Galatians 3 


3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise


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## hobbs27

Skyking said:


> Do you feel that according to scripture your a prisoner to the law ?



No, according to scripture , through faith I am free from the bondage of the law. We are all in this together too, no longer is there a jew or greek, we are either in Christ or not.


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## Skyking

without alot of fuss we need to leave any mention of the New Testament out for there was no NT when sin first came into play  ...and then we can use the following definitions if all are in agreement 

*To·rah*{ my insertion as the Book of Moses or the first 5 books of scripture }
[toh-ruh, tawr-uh; Sephardic Hebrew toh-rah; Ashkenazic Hebrew toh-ruh, toi-ruh] Show IPA
noun ( sometimes lowercase )
1.
the Pentateuch, being the first of the three Jewish divisions of the Old Testament. Compare Tanach.
2.
a parchment scroll on which the Pentateuch is written, used in synagogue services.
3.
the entire body of Jewish religious literature, law, and teaching as contained chiefly in the Old Testament and the Talmud.
4.
*law or instruction.*
sin
1 [sin] Show IPA
noun
1.
*transgression of divine law*: the sin of Adam.
2.
any act regarded as such a transgression, especially a willful or deliberate violation of some religious or moral principle.
3.
any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.; great fault or offense: It's a sin to waste time.

so...
Sin is transgression of the law....
without law there is nothing to transgress....
without transgression there is no sin....
without sin there is no need for a Yeshua our savior....

NO LAW _NO SIN_NO CURSE


rather than debate the scriptures we should be confronting the MEN that taught us in error,whether willingly or not...I dare say that the WHOLE bible is used for teaching and instructions right ?

When the Son of David and The King of the Jews returns what will he be teaching and observing ...?


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## hobbs27

Skyking said:


> without alot of fuss we need to leave any mention of the New Testament out for there was no NT when sin first came into play  ...and then we can use the following definitions if all are in agreement


 You will get no fuss from me. I may be short and to the point at times but Im not very emotionally tied into what other people think. I will say this though, Im a New Testament kind of guy.




Skyking said:


> rather than debate the scriptures we should be confronting the MEN that taught us in error,whether willingly or not...I dare say that the WHOLE bible is used for teaching and instructions right ?



The Old Testament is good for history and explaining why we needed a new covenant so bad, but the whole world could do without it, salvation comes from the Gospel.


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## Skyking

I'm curious as to what your NT jesus will be teaching you hobbs,there was no NT when he walked the earth ,what do you think he taught from ? what would have been his teachings and instructions....you think he might have been sent to point us BACK to the Father ?


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## hobbs27

Skyking said:


> I'm curious as to what your NT jesus will be teaching you hobbs,there was no NT when he walked the earth ,what do you think he taught from ? what would have been his teachings and instructions....you think he might have been sent to point us BACK to the Father ?



He came for the lost sheep of Israel. He submitted Himself to the cross for whosoever will. He came back in judgement of Israel, and He now is in the midst of the churches, standing at the door knocking! 
 He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords given all authority by the Father. Christ crucified and resurrected is all that needs be preached!


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## Skyking

hobbs27 said:


> He came for the lost sheep of Israel. He submitted Himself to the cross for whosoever will. He came back in judgement of Israel, and He now is in the midst of the churches, standing at the door knocking!
> He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords given all authority by the Father. Christ crucified and resurrected is all that needs be preached!



so who does scripture say that Israel is ?"In the midst of the churches"sorry have to buzz replacement theology as a no go . 
My Creator has only one covenant and that was with the children of Israel and only one way to enter in to one of the 12 gates of the Holy City ,New Jerusalem correct ?
Eph 2:12

That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

there is no such thing as a gentile believer


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## centerpin fan

Skyking said:


> there is no such thing as a gentile believer



Acts 21:25


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## centerpin fan

Skyking said:


> ... without alot of fuss we need to leave any mention of the New Testament out for there was no NT when sin first came into play ...



... but there is an NT now.  Are we to ignore it?  If not, how should Christians view and use the NT?


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## hobbs27

Skyking said:


> so who does scripture say that Israel is ?"In the midst of the churches"sorry have to buzz replacement theology as a no go .
> My Creator has only one covenant and that was with the children of Israel and only one way to enter in to one of the 12 gates of the Holy City ,New Jerusalem correct ?
> Eph 2:12
> 
> That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
> 
> there is no such thing as a gentile believer



I appreciate your honesty. This is why I always say Christians and Jews worship a different God. I get grief for that comment by many of my brothers and sisters, but it is the truth as you have demonstrated.


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## BT Charlie

Skyking said:


> without alot of fuss ...
> 
> I dare say that the WHOLE bible is used for teaching and instructions right ?[\QUOTE]
> 
> Respectfully, it is the New Testament that states all Scripture is reliable for teaching, rebuking, etc.  One dare not have his cake and eat it, too, right?
> 
> Jesus will do as He said, when the Father determines.
> 
> Brother Hobbs will perhaps have the opportunity to ask Him if this is second or third time He's been here.  Blessings.


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## Artfuldodger

Skyking said:


> I'm curious as to what your NT jesus will be teaching you hobbs,there was no NT when he walked the earth ,what do you think he taught from ? what would have been his teachings and instructions....you think he might have been sent to point us BACK to the Father ?



Jesus taught a lot of things but mostly about the Kingdom of his Father. I'm not even sure what that means.
We've had many discussions on the Kingdom of God but we can't seem to narrow down the meaning.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus taught a lot of things but mostly about the Kingdom of his Father. I'm not even sure what that means.
> We've had many discussions on the Kingdom of God but we can't seem to narrow down the meaning.



Assuming there is no question as to what the Kingdom is made of, and the question is simply what is the kingdom of God? The simplest answer is.        ( Gods  authority)


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Assuming there is no question as to what the Kingdom is made of, and the question is simply what is the kingdom of God? The simplest answer is.        ( Gods  authority)



I was thinking of this Kingdom mentioned in Mark 1:15

and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”


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## Artfuldodger

We don't  have prophets anymore so would these false prophets be in the days of true prophets. Were they teaching a different Gospel or a different kingdom? 
The terms kingdom and kingdom of God are found scores of times throughout the New Testament. Yet, it is absolutely astonishing how nearly everyone has lost the knowledge and true meaning of what this kingdom is!


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## Artfuldodger

Maybe Jesus will establish his Father's Kingdom. Maybe he already has.

Isaiah 9:6-7
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. [7] Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


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## Artfuldodger

It appears to be a literal Kingdom not something spiritual. 

Daniel 2:39
And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.

Daniel 2:44
And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.


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## Artfuldodger

More on the Earthly Kingdom:

Zechariah 14:9
The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name.

Zechariah 14:16
Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Festival of Tabernacles.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I was thinking of this Kingdom mentioned in Mark 1:15
> 
> and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”



Maybe you should start a new thread on The Kingdom and pose the question in a matter you would like cause obviously there's lots of confusion--- there's only one Kingdom.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Maybe you should start a new thread on The Kingdom and pose the question in a matter you would like cause obviously there's lots of confusion--- there's only one Kingdom.



It's related to false prophets not teaching what Jesus taught. Jesus taught of a Kingdom which is more than Authority. Flesh & Blood can't enter this Kingdom so it will be after the Millennium. During the Millennium there will be bodies of flesh & blood and bodies of flesh & bones at the same time. After the Millennium which Jesus will rule, he will turn his throne over to God. Flesh & Blood bodies will somehow be transformed into bodies of Flesh & Bone.
God's Kingdom will last forever in the "New Heaven and New Earth. We will become joint heirs with Christ of God's Kingdom becoming just like Christ is.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> It's related to false prophets not teaching what Jesus taught. Jesus taught of a Kingdom which is more than Authority. Flesh & Blood can't enter this Kingdom so it will be after the Millennium. During the Millennium there will be bodies of flesh & blood and bodies of flesh & bones at the same time. After the Millennium which Jesus will rule, he will turn his throne over to God. Flesh & Blood bodies will somehow be transformed into bodies of Flesh & Bone.
> God's Kingdom will last forever in the "New Heaven and New Earth. We will become joint heirs with Christ of God's Kingdom becoming just like Christ is.



Sounds like you got it figured out...somehow... Flesh and bone doesn't enter the Kingdom flesh and bone are physical.. Christ is interested in that which is spiritual..the soul!


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Sounds like you got it figured out...somehow... Flesh and bone doesn't enter the Kingdom flesh and bone are physical.. Christ is interested in that which is spiritual..the soul!



Philippians 3:21 
He will take our weak mortal bodies and change them into glorious bodies like his own, using the same power with which he will bring everything under his control.

1 Corinthians 15:49-53
Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. 50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.

Verse 51 above is a bit of a mystery. We shall not all sleep but we will all be changed. This could be the resurrection before the Millennium when just the Saints will be awoken. There will be another resurrection after the millennium of the one's who aren't saints.

Pulpit Commentary

Verse 51. - I show you a mystery. I make known to you a truth now made known to me by revelation. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. There is a great diversity of readings in this verse, noticed even by St. Jerome and St. Augustine. St. Jerome says that all the Latin manuscripts had "we shall all rise," and that the Greek manuscripts wavered between "we shall all sleep" and "we shall not all sleep." Some Greek manuscripts had "we shall all rise, but we shall not all be changed." This reading cannot be right, for it contradicts the next verse. There is little doubt that the reading of the Authorized version is right. It accounts for all the variations. They arose from a desire to shelter St. Paul from an apparent mistake, since he and his readers did all sleep. But

(1) St. Paul may have written under that conception of the imminence of Christ's personal return which he expresses in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, where he evidently imagines that the majority of those to whom he was writing would be of those who would be "alive, and remain unto the coming of the Lord;" or

(2) even if he no longer entertained that expectation, the "we" may naturally apply to the continuity of the Christian Church. For in 2 Corinthians 4:14 he uses "us" of those who shall die and be raised. The universal expectation of the immediate return of Christ in the first century rose

(1) from their non apprehension of the truth that the close of the old dispensation was the "coming" to which our Lord had primarily referred in his great eschatological discourse (Matthew 24:34), and

(2) from the fact that watchfulness was intended to be the attitude of the Church, and the day and hour of Christ's coming were kept absolutely unrevealed (Matthew 24:36; Matthew 25:13).

http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-51.htm


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## Artfuldodger

Why bother with the body?

Why does God bother with our bodies? Wouldn't it be far simpler to take our spirits to heaven and live forever with the Lord without any bother with a resurrection?

I do not claim to have a complete answer. I do know that God created physical matter, and it is therefore good. God did not make it just to destroy it later. He will keep the physical world in a renewed form, in a new heavens and new earth.


The physical body is not some evil thing that we need to escape from (as many non-Christians have taught). Jesus had a physical body, and there was nothing wrong with that.

In fact, Jesus was made flesh for the very purpose of redeeming all things (Col. 1:19-20). God is not abandoning the physical world — he is rescuing it. Romans 8:21 tells us that the physical creation will be liberated from its bondage when we are transformed into glory. This salvation involves the "redemption of our bodies" (v. 23).

Yes, our bodies will be redeemed, not discarded. Our bodies will be raised immortal and imperishable, freed from the decay that affects the physical world today. Christ has made it possible, as shown in his own resurrection with a body that transcends the limits of space and time.

The fact that the physical world will be redeemed, the fact that our bodies will be raised, means that we must value the physical world that God has placed us in and made us part of.

We are to care for the creation and to care for our bodies. We are to have environmental concerns and health concerns; we are to have interests in the biological and physical sciences. We are not to abandon the world we live in, but we are to improve it in whatever small ways we can.

Similarly, we are not to abandon the social world we live in, but are to improve it when we can, working against evil and promoting justice. The fact that our bodies will be redeemed and raised emphasizes our need to be involved in the world in a positive way. We are not escapists, merely biding time until time ends, but we are involved, letting Christ live in us and grow in us until we are raised with him in glory and we see him as he is and we share in his eternal joy.

http://www.gci.org/prophecy/resbody


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## Artfuldodger

The word pneuma (spirit) is not used for ‘body’, so we know that the body we will have in the New Heaven will be actual and visible.

A pneuma will not burn in an eternal fire. A body of flesh & bones will.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Philippians 3:21
> He will take our weak mortal bodies and change them into glorious bodies like his own, using the same power with which he will bring everything under his control.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 15:49-53
> Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. 50Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.53 For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.
> 
> Verse 51 above is a bit of a mystery. We shall not all sleep but we will all be changed. This could be the resurrection before the Millennium when just the Saints will be awoken. There will be another resurrection after the millennium of the one's who aren't saints.


No mystery at all. Those that passed on before Christ came back slept, those of us that pass on now that He has come don't sleep but we are changed...not resurrected but changed.



> Pulpit Commentary
> 
> Verse 51. - I show you a mystery. I make known to you a truth now made known to me by revelation. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. There is a great diversity of readings in this verse, noticed even by St. Jerome and St. Augustine. St. Jerome says that all the Latin manuscripts had "we shall all rise," and that the Greek manuscripts wavered between "we shall all sleep" and "we shall not all sleep." Some Greek manuscripts had "we shall all rise, but we shall not all be changed." This reading cannot be right, for it contradicts the next verse. There is little doubt that the reading of the Authorized version is right. It accounts for all the variations. They arose from a desire to shelter St. Paul from an apparent mistake, since he and his readers did all sleep. But
> 
> (1) St. Paul may have written under that conception of the imminence of Christ's personal return which he expresses in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, where he evidently imagines that the majority of those to whom he was writing would be of those who would be "alive, and remain unto the coming of the Lord;" or
> 
> (2) even if he no longer entertained that expectation, the "we" may naturally apply to the continuity of the Christian Church. For in 2 Corinthians 4:14 he uses "us" of those who shall die and be raised. The universal expectation of the immediate return of Christ in the first century rose
> 
> (1) from their non apprehension of the truth that the close of the old dispensation was the "coming" to which our Lord had primarily referred in his great eschatological discourse (Matthew 24:34), and
> 
> (2) from the fact that watchfulness was intended to be the attitude of the Church, and the day and hour of Christ's coming were kept absolutely unrevealed (Matthew 24:36; Matthew 25:13).
> 
> http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-51.htm


 I love all the words like mystery, may, and then the maybe the Greek language actually means something other than what the bible says.  Sounds like someone is confused about why scripture doesn't support their eschatology. 
 Jesus said He would come and the end of the age would happen before that generation passed away. A generation was counted as 40 years in those days. Either He has come or He lied and all of Christianity is based on a lie.

Matthew 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?
Matthew 24:34 Assuredly , I say to you , this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.


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## Artfuldodger

Adam and Eve were never promised Heaven but everlasting life on Earth. Jesus taught the Kingdom of God as an actual Kingdom on Earth as it is in Heaven.  
Matt. 6:10 May your Kingdom come soon. May your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> The word pneuma (spirit) is not used for ‘body’, so we know that the body we will have in the New Heaven will be actual and visible.
> 
> A pneuma will not burn in an eternal fire. A body of flesh & bones will.



There is no new heaven that we are going to...it's the same heaven from the beginning. The new heaven and new earth has come, John saw it coming down from ( heaven)  the old heaven and earth ( old covenant) has passed and there is a new heaven and earth ... Many times in the OT God referred to Israel as the heavens and earth...listen ye ole heaven and earth .


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> No mystery at all. Those that passed on before Christ came back slept, those of us that pass on now that He has come don't sleep but we are changed...not resurrected but changed.
> 
> 
> I love all the words like mystery, may, and then the maybe the Greek language actually means something other than what the bible says.  Sounds like someone is confused about why scripture doesn't support their eschatology.
> Jesus said He would come and the end of the age would happen before that generation passed away. A generation was counted as 40 years in those days. Either He has come or He lied and all of Christianity is based on a lie.
> 
> Matthew 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?
> Matthew 24:34 Assuredly , I say to you , this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.



You might be right. We could be living in the Kingdom of God with his government being manifest by Jesus already. When will God establish peace and judge the Earth?
When will the curse of mankind be removed? When will Israel be the only national entity that survives?


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## Artfuldodger

I had a dream last night about the Kingdom of God. I'm not saying it was inspired, but I was  reminded in my dream about Jesus constantly teaching about the Kingdom of God. 

Luke 8:1
 After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him,

I'll need to pray more about this Kingdom as Jesus taught.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I had a dream last night about the Kingdom of God. I'm not saying it was inspired, but I was  reminded in my dream about Jesus constantly teaching about the Kingdom of God.
> 
> Luke 8:1
> After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him,
> 
> I'll need to pray more about this Kingdom as Jesus taught.



John the Baptist and Jesus both taught the Kingdom was ( at hand). Or near close to 2000 years ago. We are kidding ourselves to think it has not come.
The Kingdom has come . Israel was judged, Fire and brimstone fell on her and burned her up. There was no  nation known as Israel again until we the USA proclaimed one after WW11. 
 Peace is found in the kingdom of God.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/preterist-questions.html


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> John the Baptist and Jesus both taught the Kingdom was ( at hand). Or near close to 2000 years ago. We are kidding ourselves to think it has not come.
> The Kingdom has come . Israel was judged, Fire and brimstone fell on her and burned her up. There was no  nation known as Israel again until we the USA proclaimed one after WW11.
> Peace is found in the kingdom of God.
> 
> http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/preterist-questions.html



I don't know if it's my problem but I am looking for an actual kingdom with Jesus coming back to Earth in the same body he left in. I'm expecting my physical body to be resurrected literally as Jesus body was and i'll be like Jesus.
This hasn't all been revealed to me clearly and it won't be until I'm resurrected.
I'm expecting to literally see Jesus sitting on a real throne. I'm expecting to have real eyes to see with and real hands like Jesus has without nail scars. I do realize this is a wierd belief having a physical resurrection and all.

If Jesus Christ came back in 70 AD—corporately, invisibly, symbolically, spiritually or however—why didn't anybody notice? Why hasn't history recorded this cosmic event? 

Answer: They did notice. It has been recorded. The problem is, no one reads history with spiritual perception. We are making the same mistake the Jews did. They were looking for a physical king and materialistic kingdom. They missed the spiritual kingdom Christ established. People today are missing the spiritual kingdom for exactly the same reason: they are looking for a physical paradise and fleshly, materialistic fulfillments. The kingdom is here now, we just need to open our eyes and realize it. 

Besides, not all history is known to us. Tremendous volumes of ancient history were destroyed with the Alexandrian Library in A.D.391. The official history written by historians in the first century was only that which was approved by the Roman Emperor

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/preterist-questions.html


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## hobbs27

Art, Your preconceptions about a physical bodily resurrection , is it from what you read in scripture, or what you have been taught by man? 

 John didn't mention nail scarred hands on Jesus when he saw Him. He described a crowned King and Lord.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Art, Your preconceptions about a physical bodily resurrection , is it from what you read in scripture, or what you have been taught by man?
> 
> John didn't mention nail scarred hands on Jesus when he saw Him. He described a crowned King and Lord.



Both Biblical and taught by man. It might be some Old Time religion though.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Both Biblical and taught by man. It might be some Old Time religion though.



Well, hold on to what is in scripture and verified by the spirit.


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## Lowjack

For Clarification I must say most of what I have read which is attributed to Messianic believers , is not what I believe as a Jew and a Messianic, Seems everything I have read is Catholic/Evangelical believes masked as Messianic believe.

I believe Yeshua is the Messiah , most specific "Messiah Ben Yosef" or the suffering Messiah"Messiah son of Joseph" as our tradition dictates , I believe Yeshua was a special Creation from the Father , created even before the foundation of the World , I believe He is the Son Of God , or Beni Elohim as stipulated in Hebrew scripture .
I believe he was exalted above this creation or Universe.
I believe as Moses taught in the shema Israel "God Is one" and there is no other god besides him.

I do not believe in a trinity , As God is one.


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## Artfuldodger

Lowjack said:


> For Clarification I must say most of what I have read which is attributed to Messianic believers , is not what I believe as a Jew and a Messianic, Seems everything I have read is Catholic/Evangelical believes masked as Messianic believe.
> 
> I believe Yeshua is the Messiah , most specific "Messiah Ben Yosef" or the suffering Messiah"Messiah son of Joseph" as our tradition dictates , I believe Yeshua was a special Creation from the Father , created even before the foundation of the World , I believe He is the Son Of God , or Beni Elohim as stipulated in Hebrew scripture .
> I believe he was exalted above this creation or Universe.
> I believe as Moses taught in the shema Israel "God Is one" and there is no other god besides him.
> 
> I do not believe in a trinity , As God is one.



That is often called a belief in "Oneness" as opposed to the "Trinity."
What are your views on any type of Earthly Kingdom or a physical resurrection?
What was or is the "Kingdom of God" that Jesus taught?


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## gordon 2

If Adam is man (  one) and being man he is both male and female ( two)  (So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them) Then who is God to call himself "us" and more than one, as in (“Let us make man[a] in our image, after our likeness.


Now Adam before the fall being a soul who's perfect spirit is in communion with his creator's Holy Spirit, who is this Adam, this created man, but also another and now three, Adam made both male and female, but also made a spirit of union or communion with his creator? 

Adam made a spirit by design that man shall  (... have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.)--- how can it be that this Adam we know being three is not made in the image of God?

Who is God of the Hebrews that he should say, let us make man, both male and female and then give man the dominion over these other things of His  creation? What manner of spirit is this that His spirit be also who He is?  Or is it too much to expect that we the created are in likeness to the non-created, the images?

Now how can I say that I am one man, but not male or female and not a soul with a spirit? And if God is only one in who He is, then my redemption is a lie! and my spirit is not restored to know with intimacy the "us" in Him.

If I was to liken God as a man I would liken him to Jesus. Jesus a man, is perhaps a type light as per the fire of burning bush that did not consume the cross itself for the resurrection.

He is not just a prophet set to redeem his people. He is one and of the same Spirit that gave safe passage to the Hebrews away from their oppressors. He is not a prophet that was nailed to a cross and who's physical remains were returned to the soil. His words  and deeds were never his alone but his and also of his  Father as it was in the beginning--"Us".

 Our spirit restored by the Holy Spirit that gave us dominion ..." over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth" this same Holy Spirit is teaching us to husband--us being man, male and female, soul and spirit.

Maybe.


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## clark87

hobbs27 said:


> the law is death it binds dead men in slavery. Jesus christ is life. He frees us through faith. Thanks for exposing those false prophets that want to bind dead men by the law...i choose life! I choose the new testament of grace through faith! I choose the king of kings and lord of lords, my savior and lord jesus christ, which has been given all authority by the father!



amen


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> The new covenant has come.
> The Messiah has come.
> .



Amen, the Jews just won't accept Him, as Isaiah says. Nothing we can do will change their minds, obviously. God temporarily blinded them, so we (the gentiles) could be grafted in, so says in His word. Thank you God for your mercy and grace on us, that we 'can' accept your Son as our Messiah. Take Paul for example.


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## Lowjack

Artfuldodger said:


> Adam and Eve were never promised Heaven but everlasting life on Earth. Jesus taught the Kingdom of God as an actual Kingdom on Earth as it is in Heaven.
> Matt. 6:10 May your Kingdom come soon. May your will be done on earth, as it is in heaven.



You are correct , People are mistaking the Kingdom Of God" and the Kingdom of Heaven and the Messianic Kingdom"We have not entered the Kingdom of Heaven yet if we had then God's will be done on earth as it is in Heaven , do you see his will been done ? not yet.
Part of the reason of the Messianic Kingdom is to turn Mankind to do His will.


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## Lowjack

Artfuldodger said:


> That is often called a belief in "Oneness" as opposed to the "Trinity."
> What are your views on any type of Earthly Kingdom or a physical resurrection?
> What was or is the "Kingdom of God" that Jesus taught?



The Kingdom of God will be established after the physical Messianic Kingdom is over with , and the Son Returns all things to God the Father and then "they shall be called by One name" A New Earth will be created.
All Who would be part of the Messianic Kingdom will be resurrected at his coming and those who believe and are alive shall be changed to an eternal body. after a long long time when all mankind left have accepted his Kingship and Torah all Will be moved to anoher Earth already prepared.


1 Corinthians 15:23-28

King James Version (KJV)


23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Get thee behind me also.
> .



Me, three.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> We don't  have prophets anymore so would these false prophets be in the days of true prophets. Were they teaching a different Gospel or a different kingdom?
> The terms kingdom and kingdom of God are found scores of times throughout the New Testament. Yet, it is absolutely astonishing how nearly everyone has lost the knowledge and true meaning of what this kingdom is!



What truly is the kingdom?

One other problem contributing to the confusion that surrounds the kingdom of God is the absence of a scriptural definition. Fact is, neither Jesus nor any biblical writer ever defined the kingdom of God. As perplexing and ironic as this omission may seem, a definition by at least one of them would surely have alleviated much of our modern-day confusion. Nor did any one back then ask for a definition, as far as we know.

But another fact is Jesusâ€™ presentations of the kingdom departed radically from the Jewish expectations. In the 1st century many Jews (and Christians yet today) were and are still looking for their Messiah to bring a visible and political kingdom which would overthrow the Roman governmental authorities and elevate Israel to supremacy over all the nations (Acts 1:6). Problem is, Jesus never taught, promised, nor delivered that kind of a kingdom.

Theologian George Eldon Ladd is somewhat helpful in his book, A Theology of the New Testament, as he contrasts the kingdom from the all-to-common tendency of identifying it with the Church. He writes:
 ·The Kingdom is primarily the dynamic reign or kingly rule of God, and derivatively, the sphere in which the rule is experienced. In biblical idiom, the Kingdom is not identified with its subjects. They are the people of Godâ€™s rule who enter it, live under it, and are governed by it. The church is the community of the Kingdom but never the Kingdom itself. Jesusâ€™ disciples belong to the Kingdom as the Kingdom belongs to them; but they are not the Kingdom. The Kingdom is the rule of God; the church is a society of women and men.
 ·(George Eldon Ladd, A Theology of the New Testament (Grand Rapids, MI.: Eerdmans, 1974, 2000), 109.)

Christian Overman deals with the kingdom in its â€œbroadest sense.â€� Hence, he defines it thusly:
 ·In the broadest sense of the word, Godâ€™s kingdom is that domain over which He is King. Taken in this context, then the kingdom of God is as broad as creation is wide, for there is no realm which exists independently of Godâ€™s sovereign rule and authority, either in heaven or on earth.

In support of his definition, Overman cites these two Psalms:
 1.â€œThe Lord has established His throne in heaven, and His kingdom rules over allâ€� (Psa. 103:19).
 2.â€œThe earth is the Lordâ€™s and all it contains, the world, and those who dwell in itâ€� (Psa. 24:1).

He does, however, recognize that â€œeven though it all belongs to God, ever since the first temptation of man, the earth and all it contains have been contested ground. There is an enemy who lays claim to that which is Godâ€™s. . . a rebel kingdom of his own inside the true Kingâ€™s territoryâ€� (Overman, Assumptions That Affect Our Lives, 117-118).

Throughout Church history, there have been a variety of attempts to define the kingdom, again because neither Jesus nor any biblical writer ever did. But here is my working definition of what is meant by the kingdom of God. First, it is not a political administration, a geographic territory, or an abstract notion. However, it is a rule, it does have a realm, and it is a pragmatic and dynamic reality. Simply defined, the kingdom of God is:
·The sphere of Godâ€™s will, reign and rule.
 ·It is located throughout heaven and the cosmos, and wherever on earth the manifestation of his sovereignty, holiness, power, and kingly authority is acknowledged and obeyed. That means it is realized both internally and externally, within and among, to draw human hearts to Him, to bless and discipline his people, and to defeat his enemies. It is to be entered, exercised, and advanced by every Christian who follows Jesus, and experienced in every aspect of society. However, it is not universally recognized, is contested, opposed, and persecuted, and is greatly under-realized.


http://www.prophecyrefi.org/our-teachings/the-kingdom-of-god/what-truly-is-the-kingdom/


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## Artfuldodger

Opposing view:
CHRIST'S Gospel


What is the one and only Gospel of Jesus Christ? THE WORLD DOES NOT KNOW! It has not been preached for 18 1/2 centuries, strange as that may seem. Look into your BIBLE. Look at it from the very beginning! 

"The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ" you'll read in Mark 1:1. "Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the GOSPEL, OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD, and saying, the time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the Gospel" (Mark 1:14-15). 

It is necessary to belief that GOSPEL, to be saved! And how can you believe it, unless you know what it is? 

Jesus went everywhere preaching the GOOD NEWS of the KINGDOM OF GOD. He sent out seventy men preaching, and commanded them to preach THE KINGDOM OF GOD (Luke 10:9). He sent the Apostles, on whom the Church of God was founded, to preach only THE KINGDOM OF GOD (Luke 9: 1-2). 

Isn't it amazing that the world has LOST the knowledge of what it is? The Apostle Paul preached THE KINGDOM OF GOD (Acts 19:8; 20:25, 28:23, 31). And God Almighty, through Paul, pronounced a double curse on man or angel that would DARE preach any other Gospel! (Gal. 1:8-9.) 

WHY, then, do so many DARE to preach so many other gospels? The good news of THE KINGDOM OF GOD is something you must understand, and BELIEVE, in order to be saved! Jesus Christ said so! YOU had better be finding out what it is! 


Daniel Knew!

http://abibletruth.com/online_literature_library/just_what_do_you_meankingdom_of_god


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